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saint_red wrote:
This is a tactics thread not a whinge about GW thread so I suggest anyone who is interested in pursuing that line of discussion further go and do it somewhere else.

As for dealing with Repulsors I don't think it's that big a deal. They don't have invulns and are quite expensive. Levis and Deredeos should be able to deal with them fairly easily.

Bunch of Lascannons aswell or LoD in melee etc.

Altough ranged solutions are pretty iffy without fw due to beeing tied to rather squishy and expensive units.

What's a good way to deal with Eldar as CSM? My opponents bringing a bunch of dark reapers, hemlocks, guardians and wave serpents, along with a load of bikes and war walkers. Do we have any silver bullets?

saint_red wrote:
This is a tactics thread not a whinge about GW thread so I suggest anyone who is interested in pursuing that line of discussion further go and do it somewhere else.

As for dealing with Repulsors I don't think it's that big a deal. They don't have invulns and are quite expensive. Levis and Deredeos should be able to deal with them fairly easily.

Levis and Deredeos being forgeworld units, and not actually in the Chaos Codex.

Which is fine, but when you start bringing a 50% forgeworld army to a friendly, you tend to feel like 'that guy'.

Havocs and helbrutes would do the trick... probably. You'd need a lot of them though, and they ain't -that- good.

 vaklor4 wrote:
What's a good way to deal with Eldar as CSM? My opponents bringing a bunch of dark reapers, hemlocks, guardians and wave serpents, along with a load of bikes and war walkers. Do we have any silver bullets?

Flying mele units are great for hemlocks, like daemon princes and the chain lord. Reapers are fairly easy to deal with but you have to beware of the forwarned stratergem for dropping in oblits or plasma termies. If you are able to deepstrike out of LoS (to avoid forwarned) warp talons in the host raptorial detachment will blend the dark reapers.

You could try alpha legion MOS reaper chaincannon havocks, scout move, warptime, prescience, VotLW and endless Cacophony will kill all the reapers there. You have to pop the wave sepents too but remember to keep havocs out of LoS until they have chance to unleash on the dark reapers.

Finally if you can swamp the board and surround the wave serpents you can beat them easily as they can't disembark. So again go AL for scout move, move and warptime 30 cultists. Charge and tie up wave serpents with an adverage charge range of 28" plus pile ins and consolidates.

You want to avoid big points units like Lord of Skulls, Kytans or even big blobs of possessed as eldar specialise in destroying one unit with doom/jinx.

You also need to make sure you're playing with enough LOS blocking terrain as dark reapers without anywhere to hide isn't great.

Triple repulsors can be intimidating if you are not expecting it. First question is what is your legion?

Oblitirators are a perfect solution to your repulsar problem. Deep strike, blow one away (or do as much dmg as possible), then slaanesh strat to shoot another one. They are probably going to die after that but 345 pts to kill 600 is a good trade.

T1 your focus would have to be on chaff clearing, which 5 man marine squads with chaincannons can do well. 3 man biker teams, bare minimum, are also a cheap and effective way at clearing chaff at 69 pts for 14 boltgun shots (you are giving the champion a free bolter right?) at 24" range plus 14" movement, i find all my lists start with 3 squads of these guys.

Then you can also do the trip predators for 390 (though i always like heavy bolters on them as well for 450) or trip hellbrutes with laz/missiles (360 pts are not bad, but can die easy... alpha legion helps here). Or just more oblits lol.

Niiru wrote:

saint_red wrote:
This is a tactics thread not a whinge about GW thread so I suggest anyone who is interested in pursuing that line of discussion further go and do it somewhere else.

As for dealing with Repulsors I don't think it's that big a deal. They don't have invulns and are quite expensive. Levis and Deredeos should be able to deal with them fairly easily.

Levis and Deredeos being forgeworld units, and not actually in the Chaos Codex.

Which is fine, but when you start bringing a 50% forgeworld army to a friendly, you tend to feel like 'that guy'.

Havocs and helbrutes would do the trick... probably. You'd need a lot of them though, and they ain't -that- good.

If were staying in-dex then honorable mention to noise marines. I swapped out las havocs for these dudes last game on a whim. Since I like my kakophoni. Turns out 8 ablatives is pretty good at keeping them firing and ignores cover missiles aren't bad. Cacophony and chaos lord nearby of course. Not heavy hitters like the las but not prone to evaporating as easy either. I used them to dig out my opponents firebase and I definitely noticed their presence in later turns.

But ya FW dreads are better.

Azuza001 wrote:
Triple repulsors can be intimidating if you are not expecting it. First question is what is your legion?

Yeah, let's talk about how to fight triple Repulsors.

I don't think it's that easy for CSMs. Each one does about 40 shots around and all their guns are AP-. They can fire their main gun twice in most circumstances.

I play Black Legion and was facing Ultramarines. The rest of his army was HQs, Primaris, Devastators, a Flyer and Thunderfire Cannons.

He deployed the Repulsors last, creating a kill zone covering most of the middle of the table. He put all his bolter / stubber fire into the Cultists (who had no saves) and all the big guns into the Deredeo until the HQs were the closest units.

In terms of what I did wrong - needed longer range guns and better delivery / meatshields. A Rhino could have made a difference. It's just a deadly match up at mid-range, you have to do some damage to them before you get close.

Azuza001 wrote:
Oblitirators are a perfect solution to your repulsar problem. Deep strike, blow one away (or do as much dmg as possible), then slaanesh strat to shoot another one. They are probably going to die after that but 345 pts to kill 600 is a good trade.

I had 2 Obliterators and 2x20 Bloodletter squads ready to deep strike turn 2. There just wasn't much to support them when they got there.

Azuza001 wrote:
T1 your focus would have to be on chaff clearing, which 5 man marine squads with chaincannons can do well. 3 man biker teams, bare minimum, are also a cheap and effective way at clearing chaff at 69 pts for 14 boltgun shots (you are giving the champion a free bolter right?) at 24" range plus 14" movement, i find all my lists start with 3 squads of these guys.

Yeah. Was thinking MSU would have caused the Repulsors to waste shots. Thought about a Biker Lord instead of the Chainlord.

Field-testing my Khorne Daemonkin, and a rules interaction presented itself that I thought worth bringing up here:

So, DttFE extra attacks cannot themselves generate any further attacks.

Crimson Crown coverage means that rolling a 6 to wound generates an extra attack.

When you take your Khorne Daemon Astartes, and generate extra hits from DttFE, make sure to keep them in a separate pool from your other hits, because your other hits can generate extra attacks via CC but your DttFE extra hits can not.

Any extra hits generated from CC, may as well add them to the DttFE pool and then roll them all together, as both pools have the ‘cannot generate extra hits’ condition.

Bear in mind that you check the ability of a model to fight after piling in. If your first round of hits kill everything within 1” of your unit, everybody who was within 1” of an enemy model (or a friend within 1” of an enemy model) after piling in can still cash in their CC & DttFE hits against the enemy unit - even if it’s a comedically long conga line falling like dominoes after some World Eaters Warp Talons tapped their leader on the shoulder

Bit of a complicated set of moving parts, but then we don’t want to fall foul of RAW, especially if we’re in an organised setting with stakes and prizes.

For competitive players - ITC Format - when running a CSM Red Corsairs - do you give the chain cannon? On the one hand it seems silly invest in an obvious chaff unit more points, on the flip side it gives some threat potential.

 lindsay40k wrote:
...even if it’s a comedically long conga line falling like dominoes after some World Eaters Warp Talons tapped their leader on the shoulder

Just loving the image you conjured up there!

orkswubwub wrote:
For competitive players - ITC Format - when running a CSM Red Corsairs - do you give the chain cannon? On the one hand it seems silly invest in an obvious chaff unit more points, on the flip side it gives some threat potential.

CSM aren't really the chaff choice though,they are more like a car battery for CP in RC.
Imo it's worth t and in a pinch might make itself very usefull if makred slaanesh.

If you were going to stuff a nasty flamer unit into a chaos list... what unit would you use and how would you use it?

Niiru wrote:
If you were going to stuff a nasty flamer unit into a chaos list... what unit would you use and how would you use it?

My first question is, where does your nasty flamer unit come from.
And what is your nasty Flamer?

Niiru wrote:
I'm curious about taking an R&H detachment, simply because I want to add decent flamer units to my army (it fits their fluff) and Chaos dont really have any options when it comes to fire.

I know, right. You'd think they'd be the pyro kings. But nope, it's the imperials again. Go figure.

Tzeentch gets some decent option in their Flamers/Exalteds as foot-troops, but other than that everything is a fairly useless 8/9" range (even forgeworld units).

So I was considering a spearhead of Hellhounds. Complete waste of points, or worth a detachment slot?

Edit: The alternative being the Hellforged Predator with Infernal Flamestorm Cannon and a couple heavy flamers. 4d6 from a single platform is fairly nasty, but it's got the typical chaos crappy range and it's 50 points more than a hellhound.

Ahh yes.Sorry.
good question What are you considering?

Not Online!!! wrote:

Niiru wrote:
If you were going to stuff a nasty flamer unit into a chaos list... what unit would you use and how would you use it?

My first question is, where does your nasty flamer unit come from.
And what is your nasty Flamer?

Umm... that was my question lol. If I knew the answer, I wouldn't have asked it :p

I'll ask it again - "If you were to field a 'good' flame-based unit in a chaos army, what unit would you use and how would you field it?"

Not Online!!! wrote:

Niiru wrote:
I'm curious about taking an R&H detachment, simply because I want to add decent flamer units to my army (it fits their fluff) and Chaos dont really have any options when it comes to fire.

I know, right. You'd think they'd be the pyro kings. But nope, it's the imperials again. Go figure.

Tzeentch gets some decent option in their Flamers/Exalteds as foot-troops, but other than that everything is a fairly useless 8/9" range (even forgeworld units).

So I was considering a spearhead of Hellhounds. Complete waste of points, or worth a detachment slot?

Edit: The alternative being the Hellforged Predator with Infernal Flamestorm Cannon and a couple heavy flamers. 4d6 from a single platform is fairly nasty, but it's got the typical chaos crappy range and it's 50 points more than a hellhound.

Ahh yes.Sorry.
good question What are you considering?

This is from a different thread, so not really relevant here other than to confuse people. Unless you're saying that you would pick renegade hellhounds as your choice? Or a Flamestorm Predator? Why are you picking those? How would you use them?

None at all.
Mainline CSM don't have a flamer worth it's salt.
Atleast not one that is actually affordable.


Edit:
At most a Hellbrute with twin fists and twin addon heavy flamers.

Not Online!!! wrote:


None at all.
Mainline CSM don't have a flamer worth it's salt.
Atleast not one that is actually affordable.


Edit:
At most a Hellbrute with twin fists and twin addon heavy flamers.

Fair enough. The helbrute is an option but losing power scourge is a loss.

I actually thought tzeentch flamers might be worth it personally, but I was here looking for other opinions.

Niiru wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:


None at all.
Mainline CSM don't have a flamer worth it's salt.
Atleast not one that is actually affordable.


Edit:
At most a Hellbrute with twin fists and twin addon heavy flamers.

Fair enough. The helbrute is an option but losing power scourge is a loss.

I actually thought tzeentch flamers might be worth it personally, but I was here looking for other opinions.

I mean what flamers are there:
Baleflamer, stuck on either gak platforms or too expensive.
Heavy flamer: Too expensive.
Regular Flamer: too expensive.

FW Hellflamer: even more expensive.

Not much left then is it.

Actually, beyond Huron blackheart i don't know any Flamer wielding Chaos unit that is worth it. Maybee tzeenthicn flamers but that's it.

Niiru wrote:
If you were going to stuff a nasty flamer unit into a chaos list... what unit would you use and how would you use it?

First option would be a Kharybdis. Deploy it, Warptime it into the middle of the enemy army, set everything on fire. Maybe have a DA give it -1 to be hit. It’s like launching that squid boss in Super Mario Sunshine.

Second option would be Plague Marines with two of the heavy Flamer equivalent and two flails. 4D3 attacks that overflow damage is sweet. Run up in a Rhino and sit on an objective. Beg people to charge them.

Third option would be a 5D6 FW Pred. Fun to Warptime in front of a horde of like Hormagaunts. Probably overcosted.

Fourth option, Spartan with twin heavy Flamers. Have a DA give it -1 to be hit. Have fast stuff prevent it getting enveloped after you Warptime it forwards.

Fifth option, Defiler with Heavy Flamer starting next to Gnarlmaw. Warptime forwards, rub your butt on the Batmobile. If it’s DG, make it blow up in the enemy’s faces.

Sixth option, I wouldn’t put it in the list. I’d take some reinforcement points, some Tzeentch characters, and a sideboard with Flamers and some other useful things. Conjure up the Flamers if they’ll be useful, and if not then maybe some Horrors or like a Herald or two. Maybe even some Screamers to try to tag support units.

MoP can advance and super-summon. Requires a psychic test, but if there’s a melee horde coming your way with modifiers to be hit, they’re a nasty speedbump.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
...DG DE’s.

Plagueburst Crawler is ace with a pair of spitters. Gnarlmaws can enable a bunch of them to fall back and shoot with them. (Arguments for Horticulous to accompany them and drop trees & increase their damage.) Loads of T8W as well.

Bloat-drone can poo-flame from 24” away if it rolls a 6 to Advance. If you’ve got a trio of them, and a Blightbringer, that’s not actually much of a long shot. And even if you don’t make it, it’s a load of T7W that nobody wants to charge.

Both of them charge up Epidemius, which presents interesting Daemonkin options. Drop Nurglings in no-man’s land to goad unit’s forwards for a good hosing-down.

The Blightbringer can move during your movement phase to buff a large number of units. So, a DE jamboree can all hoof it forwards, full tilt, and be followed by a load of Plague Marines, Cultists, Poxwalkers, whatever. Rhinos with fighty Plague Marines rolling 2D6 to advance whilst the enemy chaff gets sprayed down? Nice.

Leviathan Dread has flamers and is competitive in almost every tournament format worth mentioning... None in the ETC lists currently at ESC that I saw but have been used effectively in the past. 2x Hellflamers and with dual butcher cannons are still likely worth their points even in a heavy anti-tank meta. Not sure if it fits the fluff but the Leviathan and PBC as noted above two quality chaos units with flamers/spitters.

A r&h hellhound with track guards is the best flaming unit for chaos (and for imperium). It always moves 12", and auto hits. Overwatch is 2D6 auto hits at 16". Threat range is 28". With HB its 113 pts.

 p5freak wrote:
A r&h hellhound with track guards is the best flaming unit for chaos (and for imperium). It always moves 12", and auto hits. Overwatch is 2D6 auto hits at 16". Threat range is 28". With HB its 113 pts.

Yep, that conclusion he allready had from the other thread.

I'd make a cheap R&H battalion for 170 pts and 5 CP and throw in a bunch of The hellhounds.
Ofcourse he could go for a battalion, adding in some Mortar HWT's and some Marauder snipers if he so choses.


Both offer advantages and options regular Chaos does not really have.

Little question. I'm looking for a way to make Abaddon useable in a 1k points game (my most played format) and I am thinking of deepstriking him down along with either a squad of 5 plasma terminators (probably with power fists or if points allow chainfists) or 2 oblits. Advantage of the Oblits would be that they've can be split up in 2 units of 1 if that suits the situation better and their shooting alpha strike will probably be stronger, the advantage of terminators is that they can join Abby in smashing face the next turn, especially with the coming Shock Assault rule.

The rest of the army will consist of 3x 5 CSM with a Reaper Chaincannon in each squad and a Sorcerer of Slaanesh with Jump Pack. The points that are left after that will probably go into a Forgefiend or Venomcrawler (I think my Discolord will will end up bringing the points cost to about 1025 unfortunately :( ). What would you do? Thanks!

Pandabeer wrote:
Little question. I'm looking for a way to make Abaddon useable in a 1k points game (my most played format) and I am thinking of deepstriking him down along with either a squad of 5 plasma terminators (probably with power fists or if points allow chainfists) or 2 oblits. Advantage of the Oblits would be that they've can be split up in 2 units of 1 if that suits the situation better and their shooting alpha strike will probably be stronger, the advantage of terminators is that they can join Abby in smashing face the next turn, especially with the coming Shock Assault rule.

The rest of the army will consist of 3x 5 CSM with a Reaper Chaincannon in each squad and a Sorcerer of Slaanesh with Jump Pack. The points that are left after that will probably go into a Forgefiend or Venomcrawler (I think my Discolord will will end up bringing the points cost to about 1025 unfortunately :( ). What would you do? Thanks!

You got multiple options really:

You can downgrade the Terminators with regular Combibolters and use Votwl and abby with cacophony to still get a decent effect out of them. (probably replace one combi plas with a reaper ac)

You could as you said go with oblits. altough at 230 pts that would be probably half the army really that you would field.

You could say screw this and cut the reapers in favour for regular AC's and gain the 30 pts needed for the discolord. Which would give you another threat.

As someone that fields his forgefiend somewhat regularly , i''d not reccomend it under 1000 pts. Atleast not the full dakka version.

Not Online!!! wrote:

Pandabeer wrote:
Little question. I'm looking for a way to make Abaddon useable in a 1k points game (my most played format) and I am thinking of deepstriking him down along with either a squad of 5 plasma terminators (probably with power fists or if points allow chainfists) or 2 oblits. Advantage of the Oblits would be that they've can be split up in 2 units of 1 if that suits the situation better and their shooting alpha strike will probably be stronger, the advantage of terminators is that they can join Abby in smashing face the next turn, especially with the coming Shock Assault rule.

The rest of the army will consist of 3x 5 CSM with a Reaper Chaincannon in each squad and a Sorcerer of Slaanesh with Jump Pack. The points that are left after that will probably go into a Forgefiend or Venomcrawler (I think my Discolord will will end up bringing the points cost to about 1025 unfortunately :( ). What would you do? Thanks!

You got multiple options really:

You can downgrade the Terminators with regular Combibolters and use Votwl and abby with cacophony to still get a decent effect out of them. (probably replace one combi plas with a reaper ac)

You could as you said go with oblits. altough at 230 pts that would be probably half the army really that you would field.

You could say screw this and cut the reapers in favour for regular AC's and gain the 30 pts needed for the discolord. Which would give you another threat.

As someone that fields his forgefiend somewhat regularly , i''d not reccomend it under 1000 pts. Atleast not the full dakka version.

The Dark Prince favors me this day because a 5 man Terminator squad with Combibolters, a Reaper Autocannon and Power fists + Discolord with Baleflamer + the rest of the list is exactly 1000 points

List is now as follows:

- 3x5 CSM with 1 Reaper Chaincannon in each squad.
- Abby
- Discolord with Baleflamer, Sightless Helm and the Indomitable warlord trait
- 5x Terminators with 4x combibolter, 1x Reaper Autocannon and 5x Power Fist
- Sorcerer of Slaanesh with JP, Smite, Warptime and Delightful Agonies.
- Everything has Mark of Slaanesh (except Abby who has all 4 by default of course).

edit: scratch the 3 combibolters from the CSM squads, that would make the full list 1006 points... the Chaos God is always in the details.

Pandabeer wrote:
Little question. I'm looking for a way to make Abaddon useable in a 1k points game (my most played format) and I am thinking of deepstriking him down along with either a squad of 5 plasma terminators (probably with power fists or if points allow chainfists) or 2 oblits. Advantage of the Oblits would be that they've can be split up in 2 units of 1 if that suits the situation better and their shooting alpha strike will probably be stronger, the advantage of terminators is that they can join Abby in smashing face the next turn, especially with the coming Shock Assault rule.

The rest of the army will consist of 3x 5 CSM with a Reaper Chaincannon in each squad and a Sorcerer of Slaanesh with Jump Pack. The points that are left after that will probably go into a Forgefiend or Venomcrawler (I think my Discolord will will end up bringing the points cost to about 1025 unfortunately :( ). What would you do? Thanks!

I'd say in this sort of list you'd be much better with abandon on the board.

Deepstriking and charging is really unreliable and you'd be better just pairing him woth something that can move up the board with him like venomcrawlers or defilers and using warptime to get him up the board quicker. With Advance he'll move 19" first turn and 12" + charge second turn.

Last thing you want is to be zoned out and end up charging not much with Abandon. This way your opponent has to chew through some tough units before he can get to Abby.

Pandabeer wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

Pandabeer wrote:
Little question. I'm looking for a way to make Abaddon useable in a 1k points game (my most played format) and I am thinking of deepstriking him down along with either a squad of 5 plasma terminators (probably with power fists or if points allow chainfists) or 2 oblits. Advantage of the Oblits would be that they've can be split up in 2 units of 1 if that suits the situation better and their shooting alpha strike will probably be stronger, the advantage of terminators is that they can join Abby in smashing face the next turn, especially with the coming Shock Assault rule.

The rest of the army will consist of 3x 5 CSM with a Reaper Chaincannon in each squad and a Sorcerer of Slaanesh with Jump Pack. The points that are left after that will probably go into a Forgefiend or Venomcrawler (I think my Discolord will will end up bringing the points cost to about 1025 unfortunately :( ). What would you do? Thanks!

You got multiple options really:

You can downgrade the Terminators with regular Combibolters and use Votwl and abby with cacophony to still get a decent effect out of them. (probably replace one combi plas with a reaper ac)

You could as you said go with oblits. altough at 230 pts that would be probably half the army really that you would field.

You could say screw this and cut the reapers in favour for regular AC's and gain the 30 pts needed for the discolord. Which would give you another threat.

As someone that fields his forgefiend somewhat regularly , i''d not reccomend it under 1000 pts. Atleast not the full dakka version.

The Dark Prince favors me this day because a 5 man Terminator squad with Combibolters, a Reaper Autocannon and Power fists + Discolord with Baleflamer + the rest of the list is exactly 1000 points

List is now as follows:

- 3x5 CSM with 1 Reaper Chaincannon in each squad.
- Abby
- Discolord with Baleflamer, Sightless Helm and the Indomitable warlord trait
- 5x Terminators with 4x combibolter, 1x Reaper Autocannon and 5x Power Fist
- Sorcerer of Slaanesh with JP, Smite, Warptime and Delightful Agonies.
- Everything has Mark of Slaanesh (except Abby who has all 4 by default of course).

edit: scratch the 3 combibolters from the CSM squads, that would make the full list 1006 points... the Chaos God is always in the details.

I don't quite get the powerfists on the terminators.

Khorne on a throne, but Plague Marines are brutal now. 4D3A at S6 AP2 D2 with overflow, on a T5 FNP Troops unit is horrific. Blades of Putrefaction plus VotLW makes them terrifying. Anyone game for trying a horde of twenty with axes and a couple of spewers jump out of a Spartan or suchlike?

 lindsay40k wrote:
Khorne on a throne, but Plague Marines are brutal now. 4D3A at S6 AP2 D2 with overflow, on a T5 FNP Troops unit is horrific. Blades of Putrefaction plus VotLW makes them terrifying. Anyone game for trying a horde of twenty with axes and a couple of spewers jump out of a Spartan or suchlike?

Why is it 4D3? I only count 3D3 (assuming new +1A on charge rule)

Edit - Ignore me. They don't get +1 attack for having two weapons if one is the flail. SO you're talking about two marines giving 4 attacks.

New marine book twisting the knife of leaving the Word Bearer garbage unchanged.

Quick question and my apologies if it's really dumb. I've looked in the Codex and faq but I'm clearly missing it if it's there.

Can cultists use veterans of the long war?

Thanks in advance.