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 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:
Here's a list idea: DG + Red Corsairs

DG would bring 10x blightlords and 20x possessed, both of which benefit a lot from shock assault. Probably heavy support from Plagueburst crawlers too.

Red Corsairs would bring berzerkers in rhinos and MSU reaper squads for chaff clearing and cheap CP.

Both sides could bring a bunch of characters and armored heavy support. Dark Hereticus Psykers from the CSM side can still buff the DG units, but not vice versa. DG would want a caster or two for buffing the possessed and/or the blightlords.

The idea would be that on turn 1, you present 0 soft targets. Infantry is either in a rhino or screened by them or in reserve. Everything else is t8 armor. You spend your turn 1 moving up. Shield the possessed with Cloud of Flies. Clear screens with shooting from heavy support. Turn 2 you will be in charge range vs most types of enemies, especially with warp time on the possessed and advance+charge on the berzerkers. Blightlords deepstrike and melt something with combi-plasma. They get cloud of flies now that the possessed are going into melee.

This probably won't be a tournament winning list, but it would be a different sort of playstyle from what people are used to, and quite hard to kill. Berzerkers, Possessed, and blightlords are all happy to be in melee with pretty much anything else in the game. And you'll probably have some Princes in there too. Melee knights might be tough.

Think it could work now? Right now I'm not clear on if DG can use the MoP. It appears they can't use the Daemonkin specialist detachment?

Uhh how much heavy armour do you think you can fit in a list like this? 10 blightlords and 20 possessed is over 800 points without character support. And you can say goodbye to your 400 point unit of Possessed if you don't get T1 to activate Cloud of Flies.

saint_red wrote:

 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:
Here's a list idea: DG + Red Corsairs

DG would bring 10x blightlords and 20x possessed, both of which benefit a lot from shock assault. Probably heavy support from Plagueburst crawlers too.

Red Corsairs would bring berzerkers in rhinos and MSU reaper squads for chaff clearing and cheap CP.

Both sides could bring a bunch of characters and armored heavy support. Dark Hereticus Psykers from the CSM side can still buff the DG units, but not vice versa. DG would want a caster or two for buffing the possessed and/or the blightlords.

The idea would be that on turn 1, you present 0 soft targets. Infantry is either in a rhino or screened by them or in reserve. Everything else is t8 armor. You spend your turn 1 moving up. Shield the possessed with Cloud of Flies. Clear screens with shooting from heavy support. Turn 2 you will be in charge range vs most types of enemies, especially with warp time on the possessed and advance+charge on the berzerkers. Blightlords deepstrike and melt something with combi-plasma. They get cloud of flies now that the possessed are going into melee.

This probably won't be a tournament winning list, but it would be a different sort of playstyle from what people are used to, and quite hard to kill. Berzerkers, Possessed, and blightlords are all happy to be in melee with pretty much anything else in the game. And you'll probably have some Princes in there too. Melee knights might be tough.

Think it could work now? Right now I'm not clear on if DG can use the MoP. It appears they can't use the Daemonkin specialist detachment?

Uhh how much heavy armour do you think you can fit in a list like this? 10 blightlords and 20 possessed is over 800 points without character support. And you can say goodbye to your 400 point unit of Possessed if you don't get T1 to activate Cloud of Flies.

You're right, I was looking at the numbers and you can probably do either the blightlords or the 20 possessed, which is okay since you have limited defensive buffs anyway.
As for turn 1, if you have some tanks or decent terrain you'd try to keep the possessed out of line of sight of things that can hurt them badly.

I really love Possessed but I'm still not convinced they are worthwhile. They aren't strong enough defensively unfortunately.

Blightlords on the other hand are very good and this rule makes them even better.

As for the rest of your list concept I think it can work but you want to be careful about overinvesting in melee. It makes you really vulnerable to flyers and other fast moving / kitey lists like DE venoms etc. One great tool we now have for that is a dual RFBC knight with the Helm so think about taking that as your T8 armor.

So I tend to think this makes some of the already strongest units even stronger. Tzaangors and cultists probably won't get it. Almost certainly all normal powered armor dudes will. I think much beyond that (dreads, vehicles, daemon engines....the Kytan....) is speculation. I would think prooobably daemon princes/lords/sorcs/discos will also get it. Obviously chain caps, lord discos and princes will all benefit quite a bit. They tend to go against hard or numerous targets and don't risk overkill quite as much as khorne berserkers. It'll be a nice boost to daemon engines if they do get it, same for helbrutes, though I'm not sure either will benefit enough for you to want to use them (...though man they keep buffing brutes). Good all around there.

I think the more interesting things to look at, however, is less how things which are already good will get better but more how things which are sitting just outside of decent might get to "usable".

Looking at that, I think bikes might actually be the big winners there. Raptors/warp talons are really finicky to use. Bikes, however, keep feeling like they are just a few inches from usable in the right list. Bare bones (or possibly flamer-equipped) small units of bikers might reach a tipping point. Unlike berserkers, who really don't need to kill any better, they are fast and modestly tough. Their big downside is lack of sufficient killing power. Red Corsairs provide an excellent trait for them, as does Flawless Host. As a harassment unit, they could find some much stronger use as this increases their melee capacity by probably about 50%~ or so.

It'll also be interesting to see the helbrute/daemon engine question answered. If Kytans can use it, they'll probably be back to being on par with chaos knights. The others will continue to be difficult to compete with lord discos, though.

I know the new rule makes blights even better, but for those who don't play DG - it also seems to make the cheap 29ppm CSM terminators a little more interesting. It's a shame they don't get chainswords really.

I don't think daemon engines of any type will get it as they aren't marines. But Helbrutes and Princes ought to.

Niiru wrote:
I know the new rule makes blights even better, but for those who don't play DG - it also seems to make the cheap 29ppm CSM terminators a little more interesting. It's a shame they don't get chainswords really.

It gives them 50% more attacks, which makes it more worthwhile to give them better weapons. I ran the numbers on them awhile back and essentially concluded that they were barely not worth it in melee. I'd guess that something like 5x terminators with a chainfist, 2x power axe, 2xchain axe, and 2x combi plasma will now be worth considering as a pressure unit.

Tbf bikers still shoot better with the always on bolter discipline.

But melee orientated armies now get cheaper mobile options that have finally some bite to them.

Been reading through the space marine chapter tactics and it looks like we'll never get rid of our eternal SM -1 problem.

Gidun wrote:
Been reading through the space marine chapter tactics and it looks like we'll never get rid of our eternal SM -1 problem.

I don't think the traits are all that bad and we get whatever the plus 1 attack rule is called too. It's just the fact they get chapter tactics on everything, vehicles with +1 to hit and fnp is fairly grim!!

I'm going to assume that Chaos will also get its Legion Traits redone at some point. Alpha Legion and Iron Warriors are already mirrors of their counterparts.

The change to RavenGuard/Alpha Legion makes them even more durable in cover, but is a downgrade for units not in cover compared to before.

The extra bolt hits on 6's won't benefit IWs anywhere near as much as Fists as we just have far fewer bolt weapons, and don't have primaris bolt weapons of course. I hope they get something slightly different.

 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:
I'm going to assume that Chaos will also get its Legion Traits redone at some point. Alpha Legion and Iron Warriors are already mirrors of their counterparts.

The change to RavenGuard/Alpha Legion makes them even more durable in cover, but is a downgrade for units not in cover compared to before.

The extra bolt hits on 6's won't benefit IWs anywhere near as much as Fists as we just have far fewer bolt weapons, and don't have primaris bolt weapons of course. I hope they get something slightly different.

Yeah, it would be weird if Chaos chapter tactics went untouched during all this. The Community post mentioned Chaos getting the new rule in a similar update so here is hoping the chapter tactics land soonish.

I am excited that Primaris and Space Marines are looking to be tougher on the table top (with a few obvious exceptions, they needed it) but I just can't understand why they even bothered with that CSM codex 2.0 at this rate. Just drop it after the big SM push and give us a book that will actually be useful for a little while. Just seems like a confusing roll out plan with big changes like this coming down the pipe.

 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:
I'm going to assume that Chaos will also get its Legion Traits redone at some point. Alpha Legion and Iron Warriors are already mirrors of their counterparts.

The change to RavenGuard/Alpha Legion makes them even more durable in cover, but is a downgrade for units not in cover compared to before.

The extra bolt hits on 6's won't benefit IWs anywhere near as much as Fists as we just have far fewer bolt weapons, and don't have primaris bolt weapons of course. I hope they get something slightly different.

The addition to armor is almost mathematically the same, and the vehicles get it in addition. It's more a sidegrade if anything just because of that.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:
I'm going to assume that Chaos will also get its Legion Traits redone at some point. Alpha Legion and Iron Warriors are already mirrors of their counterparts.

The change to RavenGuard/Alpha Legion makes them even more durable in cover, but is a downgrade for units not in cover compared to before.

The extra bolt hits on 6's won't benefit IWs anywhere near as much as Fists as we just have far fewer bolt weapons, and don't have primaris bolt weapons of course. I hope they get something slightly different.

The addition to armor is almost mathematically the same, and the vehicles get it in addition. It's more a sidegrade if anything just because of that.

I am wondering how they pull word Bearers out of the dirt, also the renegade order traits really don't work with some of the vehicles.
Rather have seen them go with the IG way where some effects changed if a unit was a vehicle instead.


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I am excited that Primaris and Space Marines are looking to be tougher on the table top (with a few obvious exceptions, they needed it) but I just can't understand why they even bothered with that CSM codex 2.0 at this rate. Just drop it after the big SM push and give us a book that will actually be useful for a little while. Just seems like a confusing roll out plan with big changes like this coming down the pipe.

Because nickle and diming is fun?
You all should remember that this is still the same company as before, exception now it got a decent PR Management

Can’t wait for a patch enabling my Land Raiders to reroll Morale checks!

Snark aside, I guess Word Bearers will get an enhanced trait that recalls the old crusaders ability? Either cloning the BT charge reroll (in which case, Lorgarian icons of wrath and Khorne Daemonkin will be redundant), or bonuses to advance moves (in which case, Lorgarian Nurgle and Slaanesh Daemonkin will become stronger)

Not as funky as tanks always being in cover, or able to fall back and shoot, but still, it’d be nice to have.

Not Online!!! wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:
I'm going to assume that Chaos will also get its Legion Traits redone at some point. Alpha Legion and Iron Warriors are already mirrors of their counterparts.

The change to RavenGuard/Alpha Legion makes them even more durable in cover, but is a downgrade for units not in cover compared to before.

The extra bolt hits on 6's won't benefit IWs anywhere near as much as Fists as we just have far fewer bolt weapons, and don't have primaris bolt weapons of course. I hope they get something slightly different.

The addition to armor is almost mathematically the same, and the vehicles get it in addition. It's more a sidegrade if anything just because of that.

I am wondering how they pull word Bearers out of the dirt, also the renegade order traits really don't work with some of the vehicles.
Rather have seen them go with the IG way where some effects changed if a unit was a vehicle instead.


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I am excited that Primaris and Space Marines are looking to be tougher on the table top (with a few obvious exceptions, they needed it) but I just can't understand why they even bothered with that CSM codex 2.0 at this rate. Just drop it after the big SM push and give us a book that will actually be useful for a little while. Just seems like a confusing roll out plan with big changes like this coming down the pipe.

Because nickle and diming is fun?
You all should remember that this is still the same company as before, exception now it got a decent PR Management

Word Bearers are super crusadey. Advance + Charge is fine for them. Screw Red Corsairs (rules wise).

I just learnt about the upgrades to space marines. Actually has me seriously considering giving up this hobby.

Chaos -just- had an update, so we won't be getting any of these changes until 2021 at the earliest (if at all, which is another subject for debate). So we have at least 2 years of being significantly subservient to our loyalist counterparts.

Basically the only option now is to either play DG/TS soup and cheese the hell out of the game, or play DG/TS soup AND forgeworld and cheese the hell out of the game.

I honestly would have preferred not getting vigilus and the CSM 2.0 when we did, as these legion trait upgrades are so much more than anything we received.

Niiru wrote:
I just learnt about the upgrades to space marines. Actually has me seriously considering giving up this hobby.

Chaos -just- had an update, so we won't be getting any of these changes until 2021 at the earliest (if at all, which is another subject for debate). So we have at least 2 years of being significantly subservient to our loyalist counterparts.

Basically the only option now is to either play DG/TS soup and cheese the hell out of the game, or play DG/TS soup AND forgeworld and cheese the hell out of the game.

I honestly would have preferred not getting vigilus and the CSM 2.0 when we did, as these legion trait upgrades are so much more than anything we received.

I'm gonna defend GW (which doesn't happen, really) and say that we can probably expect updates sooner than you'd think.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Niiru wrote:
I just learnt about the upgrades to space marines. Actually has me seriously considering giving up this hobby.

Chaos -just- had an update, so we won't be getting any of these changes until 2021 at the earliest (if at all, which is another subject for debate). So we have at least 2 years of being significantly subservient to our loyalist counterparts.

Basically the only option now is to either play DG/TS soup and cheese the hell out of the game, or play DG/TS soup AND forgeworld and cheese the hell out of the game.

I honestly would have preferred not getting vigilus and the CSM 2.0 when we did, as these legion trait upgrades are so much more than anything we received.

I'm gonna defend GW (which doesn't happen, really) and say that we can probably expect updates sooner than you'd think.

Yeah, I agree here. I wouldn't be surprised to hear about equivalent Chaos Patches before the month is out (similar to how they originally did Chaos Knights). Overall I think this is looking positive for anyone who plays marines, regardless of preferred heresy levels, I am just a little annoyed/confused at how they did it is all. This is the sort of treatment they should have saved for CSM codex 2.0 and if they wanted their emperor's fancy lads to get it first, just hold off on our book and tell people to just buy Vigilus Ablaze.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Niiru wrote:
I just learnt about the upgrades to space marines. Actually has me seriously considering giving up this hobby.

Chaos -just- had an update, so we won't be getting any of these changes until 2021 at the earliest (if at all, which is another subject for debate). So we have at least 2 years of being significantly subservient to our loyalist counterparts.

Basically the only option now is to either play DG/TS soup and cheese the hell out of the game, or play DG/TS soup AND forgeworld and cheese the hell out of the game.

I honestly would have preferred not getting vigilus and the CSM 2.0 when we did, as these legion trait upgrades are so much more than anything we received.

I'm gonna defend GW (which doesn't happen, really) and say that we can probably expect updates sooner than you'd think.

I know they already backpedalled by giving Chaos the 'shock assault' rules as a bonus. I'd be the first person to admit I was wrong if they turned around and threw a bunch more upgrades at us.

However it just seems so unlikely, considering we literally -just- got a new book.


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Kias wrote:


Yeah, I agree here. I wouldn't be surprised to hear about equivalent Chaos Patches before the month is out (similar to how they originally did Chaos Knights). Overall I think this is looking positive for anyone who plays marines, regardless of preferred heresy levels, I am just a little annoyed/confused at how they did it is all. This is the sort of treatment they should have saved for CSM codex 2.0 and if they wanted their emperor's fancy lads to get it first, just hold off on our book and tell people to just buy Vigilus Ablaze.

Got to agree here. I mean I think a lot of people skipped buying CSM 2.0 because it basically had nothing new in it apart from an update for terminator prices. And dropping 3ppm isn't really a reason to buy a whole book.

If they had waited, given us the full upgrade package, and released a full Chaos Updated Codex 2.0 Supreme! then a LOT more people would have bought it.

So if they were going to do it, they'd have done it in a way that would have gotten them more money. As it stands, the way to make money is to wait 2 years and release it in Chaos 3.0.

Honestly, I think GW’s rules publishing pipeline flows extremely fast and there’s probably little room to adjust course and juggle schedules. They’re basically falling over themselves to get every supported range a Codex or Battletome, and also KT or Warcry rules, and also maintain live FAQs, and also WD stuff, and so on

Space Wolves got their Warlord Traits sorted pretty quick when they were noticed after the deadline, I’m sure we’ll get some parity with loyalists before our third Codex

I wouldn't mind our traits staying bad if we got a proper Mark system like the 3.5 codex instead. I don't mind if Chaos is made better in some other way than Loyalists. If they want to say that loyalists have more buffs from codex doctrine and chaos has more buffs from warp stuff that's fine. I just want to be able to field Chaos Marines and have them be flavorful and work.

Would also love to see bonuses for monogod and/or mono legion armies come back. Give a bunch of extra CP if all detachments are from the same Legion or something.

This bodes well for CSM I think. +1 attack and atsknf is a significant boost. Heres hoping we get the legion traits restriction lifted.. maybe even get some new better traits. Hope alpha legion doesn't get the RG treatment but it kinda feels like they will.

dominuschao wrote:
This bodes well for CSM I think. +1 attack and atsknf is a significant boost. Heres hoping we get the legion traits restriction lifted.. maybe even get some new better traits. Hope alpha legion doesn't get the RG treatment but it kinda feels like they will.

Have they said Chaos are getting atsknf? I'm pretty sure we are only getting the shock assault part of the rule, and not the other bits. Unless there's been a statement to the contrary.

Otherwise what would be the point of word bearers?

Niiru wrote:

dominuschao wrote:
This bodes well for CSM I think. +1 attack and atsknf is a significant boost. Heres hoping we get the legion traits restriction lifted.. maybe even get some new better traits. Hope alpha legion doesn't get the RG treatment but it kinda feels like they will.

Have they said Chaos are getting atsknf? I'm pretty sure we are only getting the shock assault part of the rule, and not the other bits. Unless there's been a statement to the contrary.

Otherwise what would be the point of word bearers?

Correct. We already have Bolter Discipline, and we're getting Shock Assault. No ATSKNF.

Niiru wrote:

dominuschao wrote:
This bodes well for CSM I think. +1 attack and atsknf is a significant boost. Heres hoping we get the legion traits restriction lifted.. maybe even get some new better traits. Hope alpha legion doesn't get the RG treatment but it kinda feels like they will.

Have they said Chaos are getting atsknf? I'm pretty sure we are only getting the shock assault part of the rule, and not the other bits. Unless there's been a statement to the contrary.

Otherwise what would be the point of word bearers?

No I think you're right, just +1 attack. We get dttfe rather than atsknf. Which is generally better vs imperium and useless against anything else.

One sneaky boost we'll get is that even more people will be playing imperium (especially with the Asuryiani soup nerfs), so dttfe will be more useful at tournaments etc.

dominuschao wrote:
This bodes well for CSM I think. +1 attack and atsknf is a significant boost. Heres hoping we get the legion traits restriction lifted.. maybe even get some new better traits. Hope alpha legion doesn't get the RG treatment but it kinda feels like they will.

Here's a quote from the footnotes in the article:

"If you’re a fan of the Blood Angels, Space Wolves, Dark Angels, Grey Knights or Deathwatch, don’t worry – you can look forward to official rules updates coming soon via free PDF download. And remember, you Heretic Astartes players out there will also be gaining Shock Assault for your units in a similar update!"

Sure sounds like Chaos gets Shock Assault while Loyalists get that plus Chapter Tactics for every model in their army. If correct, the benefits for CSM are heavily outweighed by improvements to loyalists.

I recently played against a 3 Repulsor list. My guys did 3 wounds to one before they destroyed a Chaos Lord, a Sorcerer, a Bloodmaster, a Deredeo, 2x20 Cultists and 5x CSMs in a single turn. It's already hard to deal with those things, imagine them with Chapter Tactics.

Feels like we're backtracking towards game-breaking imbalances.

Um...3 repulsors cost 900 points; I'm guessing they probably didn't act without support either, so bare minimum over 1000. You're saying they destroyed something like 500 points, 3 of which were characters and poorly positioned by the sound of it. That's not particularly broken. A double gat/ironstorm knight could kill 20~ intersessors with trail of destruction before it got chapter tactics; that's a 500 point model killing around 400 points of dudes (if they were anything but naked, 350 otherwise), a much better exchange.


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I find it annoying that it seems like they had a bunch of space marine stuff cooking and decided to hold off on it until the imperium release. Now we have to see how much of it gets translated over to chaos as well. i.e. Are chaos tactics going to shift to vehicles as well, will they be updated to mimic their mirrors in the imperium, will we also get to have successor-esc things, etc.

I'm going to guess it'll be 50-50 on all of them. But if there is no winning for GW in this. If chaos got everything first, imperium (which is the bigger group) would have whined, if chaos got everything second, chaos would have whined. As it is chaos got some very cool stuff, now imperium is. So it's kind of a divided approach.

drakerocket wrote:
Um...3 repulsors cost 900 points; I'm guessing they probably didn't act without support either, so bare minimum over 1000. You're saying they destroyed something like 500 points, 3 of which were characters and poorly positioned by the sound of it. That's not particularly broken. A double gat/ironstorm knight could kill 20~ intersessors with trail of destruction before it got chapter tactics; that's a 500 point model killing around 400 points of dudes (if they were anything but naked, 350 otherwise), a much better exchange.

The 40 Cultists and 5 CSMs - with a Deredeo bringing up the rear - seemed like a reasonable screen for the Chainlord, JP Sorcerer and Bloodmaster. They cost more than you estimated.

But that's not the point. CSMs don't have anything comparable to a Repulsor at 300 points. Now GW is buffing it through Expanded Chapter Tactics.

Feels like we're seeing heavy-handed power creep in favor of Loyalists.

Knights are irrelevant. They aren't in the CSM Codex and don't do much Loyalists can't do.

 techsoldaten wrote:

dominuschao wrote:
This bodes well for CSM I think. +1 attack and atsknf is a significant boost. Heres hoping we get the legion traits restriction lifted.. maybe even get some new better traits. Hope alpha legion doesn't get the RG treatment but it kinda feels like they will.

Here's a quote from the footnotes in the article:

"If you’re a fan of the Blood Angels, Space Wolves, Dark Angels, Grey Knights or Deathwatch, don’t worry – you can look forward to official rules updates coming soon via free PDF download. And remember, you Heretic Astartes players out there will also be gaining Shock Assault for your units in a similar update!"

Sure sounds like Chaos gets Shock Assault while Loyalists get that plus Chapter Tactics for every model in their army. If correct, the benefits for CSM are heavily outweighed by improvements to loyalists.

I recently played against a 3 Repulsor list. My guys did 3 wounds to one before they destroyed a Chaos Lord, a Sorcerer, a Bloodmaster, a Deredeo, 2x20 Cultists and 5x CSMs in a single turn. It's already hard to deal with those things, imagine them with Chapter Tactics.

Feels like we're backtracking towards game-breaking imbalances.

It's funny, when I pointed the lack out and wondered why we would get codex 2.0 which really is 1.1 considering content i got shouted down



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 techsoldaten wrote:

drakerocket wrote:
Um...3 repulsors cost 900 points; I'm guessing they probably didn't act without support either, so bare minimum over 1000. You're saying they destroyed something like 500 points, 3 of which were characters and poorly positioned by the sound of it. That's not particularly broken. A double gat/ironstorm knight could kill 20~ intersessors with trail of destruction before it got chapter tactics; that's a 500 point model killing around 400 points of dudes (if they were anything but naked, 350 otherwise), a much better exchange.

The 40 Cultists and 5 CSMs - with a Deredeo bringing up the rear - seemed like a reasonable screen for the Chainlord, JP Sorcerer and Bloodmaster. They cost more than you estimated.

But that's not the point. CSMs don't have anything comparable to a Repulsor at 300 points. Now GW is buffing it through Expanded Chapter Tactics.

Feels like we're seeing heavy-handed power creep in favor of Loyalists.

Knights are irrelevant. They aren't in the CSM Codex and don't do much Loyalists can't do.

You play the game wrong.
Soup is not mandatory mandatory if you get my meaning.
And I bet that the legion and warband additions will also come to us.
Further bloating the game. And further nickle and diming us.

But he, GW sold more books and can't do no wrong.

This is a tactics thread not a whinge about GW thread so I suggest anyone who is interested in pursuing that line of discussion further go and do it somewhere else.

As for dealing with Repulsors I don't think it's that big a deal. They don't have invulns and are quite expensive. Levis and Deredeos should be able to deal with them fairly easily.