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 Nightlord1987 wrote:
Awesome. Still makes the Heldrake overcosted, but helps. Great on the Death Guard Daemon engines.

And the Primarchs.

Well we'll have to take what we can get. But Damn my Noise Marine's sonic blasters were already over costed compared to bolters and combi-bolters thanks to Bolter Discipline. But Intercessor's auto bolt rifles are Assault 3 now as well and only cost 1 pt. Yeah, I'm pretty sure ignore cover isn't worth 3 pts/model.

They need to sell new marine models

 blackmage wrote:
They need to sell new marine models

On the back of everyone else though?

you should know GW

 Sersi wrote:

 Nightlord1987 wrote:
Awesome. Still makes the Heldrake overcosted, but helps. Great on the Death Guard Daemon engines.

And the Primarchs.

Well we'll have to take what we can get. But Damn my Noise Marine's sonic blasters were already over costed compared to bolters and combi-bolters thanks to Bolter Discipline. But Intercessor's auto bolt rifles are Assault 3 now as well and only cost 1 pt. Yeah, I'm pretty sure ignore cover isn't worth 3 pts/model.

I was going to ask how the ABR compares to VotLW EC sonic blaster, but then that’s spending 3CP on a single unit in a single phase versus army-wide Combat Doctrines

CD does forbid a soup list, so no loyal 32 CP farming, therefore it has an effective opportunity cost of 4-5CP, but as an army-wide unstoppable ability it’s quite possibly a bargain. AP4 las, plas? AP3 krak? AP2 HB, AC? That’s quite a first turn

 lindsay40k wrote:

 Sersi wrote:

 Nightlord1987 wrote:
Awesome. Still makes the Heldrake overcosted, but helps. Great on the Death Guard Daemon engines.

And the Primarchs.

Well we'll have to take what we can get. But Damn my Noise Marine's sonic blasters were already over costed compared to bolters and combi-bolters thanks to Bolter Discipline. But Intercessor's auto bolt rifles are Assault 3 now as well and only cost 1 pt. Yeah, I'm pretty sure ignore cover isn't worth 3 pts/model.

I was going to ask how the ABR compares to VotLW EC sonic blaster, but then that’s spending 3CP on a single unit in a single phase versus army-wide Combat Doctrines

CD does forbid a soup list, so no loyal 32 CP farming, therefore it has an effective opportunity cost of 4-5CP, but as an army-wide unstoppable ability it’s quite possibly a bargain. AP4 las, plas? AP3 krak? AP2 HB, AC? That’s quite a first turn

Loyalist don't really have ac though
That is too oldschool, ergo only for us.
Altough hades or any other ac at -2, Yikes, that would be amazing.

so brag of the day, my lord discordant just did 23 wounds to a knight.... it almost killed it but it made a bunch of saves. Sorry, proud of my dice.

now on to questions... 1, do lord discordants get advance and charge if they are Red Corsairs (I think not). 2, the new rule that gives +1 attacks per model if charge/d can they do that?

I believe yes to both as our traits got changed to Character and all Heretic Astartes get the Assault rule unless specified excluded in the rule.

Vindicators just got a huge buff on it's demolish cannon. # of shots is always D6. CSM may get more out of that than loyalists.

It's dirt cheap for D6 S10 AP3 D6 damage shots and now one of the best anti armor guns in the game. It's T8 11W tough as a Russ with 1 less wound.

It's weakness is it has to move closer on turn 1 and has to stay close. The easy counter is to charge it. An excellent safeguard is to screen it with something nasty that nobody wants to get close to like a Lord discordant.

I can buff venomcrawlers to S9 with a herald of (chaos god). Or a greater possessed, or S10 with both, even S12 ist possible. And I get 2D3 shots at 36", which I prefer to D6. Please charge my crawlers, I don't mind. I can also buff them to hit on 2+. And +1 to wound for ranged attacks.

Yes, disco lords get +1 attack from the new rule, and as RC they can charge after advancing

 p5freak wrote:
I can buff venomcrawlers to S9 with a herald of (chaos god). Or a greater possessed, or S10 with both, even S12 ist possible. And I get 2D3 shots at 36", which I prefer to D6. Please charge my crawlers, I don't mind. I can also buff them to hit on 2+. And +1 to wound for ranged attacks.

Yes, disco lords get +1 attack from the new rule, and as RC they can charge after advancing

But the Venomcrawlers only do D3 damage per hit at ap -2. And T8 can make a difference. Although you're running without an inherent 5++, I suppose.

xenoterracide wrote:
so brag of the day, my lord discordant just did 23 wounds to a knight.... it almost killed it but it made a bunch of saves. Sorry, proud of my dice.

now on to questions... 1, do lord discordants get advance and charge if they are Red Corsairs (I think not). 2, the new rule that gives +1 attacks per model if charge/d can they do that?

yes they can advance and charge, they are characters, same for +1 attack

Snugiraffe wrote:

 p5freak wrote:
I can buff venomcrawlers to S9 with a herald of (chaos god). Or a greater possessed, or S10 with both, even S12 ist possible. And I get 2D3 shots at 36", which I prefer to D6. Please charge my crawlers, I don't mind. I can also buff them to hit on 2+. And +1 to wound for ranged attacks.

Yes, disco lords get +1 attack from the new rule, and as RC they can charge after advancing

But the Venomcrawlers only do D3 damage per hit at ap -2. And T8 can make a difference. Although you're running without an inherent 5++, I suppose.

Average of 2d3 shotsX D3 is 8
Average of D6 shots by D6 damage is 12.25

The crawlers are better at shooting 2w targets like primaris but the vindicator is a better anti armor platform by 50%. 2 vindicators can crack armor as well as 3 crawlers

There is also a potential traffic jam issue with too many chaos walkers. Crawlers are good units but they fill a different role as a hybrid ranged and CC unit.

Now that Summoning sidesteps first turn deep strike restrictions, has anyone had a crack at making it work by taking Alpha Legion? Forward Operatives allows a bunch of characters to join some midfield units at the start, then in your first turn potentially drop Pink Horrors and Flamers at their range sweet spots without sacrificing accuracy with advancing or losing models to losing first turn, Beasts of Nurgle and Soulgrinders at close ranges that bypass their crawling pace, etc. Master of Possession can potentially have

Not much use on Khorne and Slaanesh, whose detachments have the mobility to get there on their own.

Sooooo something else with the Vindicators is that they can actually move + advance and still use Linebreaker Bombardment because the roll for that is a flat 4+ and not related to BS. This also means that your degraded Vindicators can still be of use.

I'm wondering whether taking the 3 Vindicators now could actually be a good option. If you find yourself out of range with the cannon T1 you can move up to use Linebreaker and from then on use the cannon. If your Vindicators get horribly degraded but all 3 survive then you can revert back to dealing damage with Linebreaker.

The Linebreaker strat is still not amazing considering it costs 1CP for an average of 3MW (per unit) and you forfeit 375pts of shooting - but if you wouldn't be shooting with your Vindicators anyway then it adds versatility.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
After reading the strat again in the codex I've also just realised - is there anything stopping you from a) firing into combat b) falling back and using this strat?

Unless this was FAQ'd you should be able to do both of those things right?

LBB has for a long time been something I really want to try but feel reluctant to countenance the buy-in, especially since first turn can’t be easily cooked any more, and whilst Knights can generate a 5++ aura, they have also caused metagames to be populated with armies that can easily get 11W past T8 and a 5++. (In respect to the latter, Noctolith Crown seems to have come out later than when it could have had an apogee; it’s been mentioned above that you could just take a Knight and pop ion aegis.)

All that said, I do have an unfinished Vindicator and at the very least the new profile gives that a bump up the paint queue. Might use a couple of Rhinos as proxies to playtest. My modest expectation is that the main impact of taking three Vindicators - Heretic or otherwise - will be that your opponent spreads out a bit more in their deployment as insurance against being nuked. So, less of a tactical nuke, and more of a zoning tool.

Main strategy that comes to mind: deploy them about 6” apart. Warptiming the one on the left or the right will give their attack a deceptively wide field. Your opponent will probably have taken care not to congregate in front of the centre one and not expect a sweeping manoeuvre to bring them to bear on a more outlying position.

Potential synergy: yes, you can fire on your own units with this, and if a volatile Death Guard vehicle is in a brawl and nearly dead, it could make for a useful secondary explosion.

List ideas: Firstly, Nurglings and Forward Operatives and Heldrakes and Slaanesh Daemons and niche Summoning gimmicks SHUT UP WORD BEARERS ARE GOOD will be useful screens for three tanks driving full tilt at the enemy line.

As well as the Warptimer, bring along a Spartan full of Berzerkers and a Lord and EC as well. Get as much of the armour around a Noctolith Crown as you can. If you lose first turn, opponent has to decide whether to use their anti-Knight firepower to disable the Linebreaker or hamstring the party van.

Worth remembering: not only can they fire it into combat, they can also fire it out of Combat, and even onto their own position. If one of them’s hopelessly tarpitted by multiple units, there are less glorious ways to go.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
This is all contingent on someone not trolling a tournament and LBB getting nerfed even farther below its current gimmick tier with common sense restrictions

 lindsay40k wrote:
Now that Summoning sidesteps first turn deep strike restrictions, has anyone had a crack at making it work by taking Alpha Legion? Forward Operatives allows a bunch of characters to join some midfield units at the start, then in your first turn potentially drop Pink Horrors and Flamers at their range sweet spots without sacrificing accuracy with advancing or losing models to losing first turn, Beasts of Nurgle and Soulgrinders at close ranges that bypass their crawling pace, etc. Master of Possession can potentially have

Not much use on Khorne and Slaanesh, whose detachments have the mobility to get there on their own.

1CP per character, so it's a bit of an investment depending how many units you want to summon. And you can still fail, though the MoP might be the better option there to minimise that.

However those units still can't move after being summoned. So the only difference between starting them on the table and moving/advancing turn 1, and scouting a character forwards and summoning turn 1, is probably only a couple of inches at best.

It does keep them off the table if you don't get first turn, which is good... but is it good enough to be worth the CP and risk?

I'm not sure it's enough, it doesnt seem to have much advantage over normal summoning (which doesn't get used much as it is). I could well be wrong, I'm just not sure where the benefit is.

Niiru wrote:

 lindsay40k wrote:
Now that Summoning sidesteps first turn deep strike restrictions, has anyone had a crack at making it work by taking Alpha Legion? Forward Operatives allows a bunch of characters to join some midfield units at the start, then in your first turn potentially drop Pink Horrors and Flamers at their range sweet spots without sacrificing accuracy with advancing or losing models to losing first turn, Beasts of Nurgle and Soulgrinders at close ranges that bypass their crawling pace, etc. Master of Possession can potentially have

Not much use on Khorne and Slaanesh, whose detachments have the mobility to get there on their own.

1CP per character, so it's a bit of an investment depending how many units you want to summon. And you can still fail, though the MoP might be the better option there to minimise that.

However those units still can't move after being summoned. So the only difference between starting them on the table and moving/advancing turn 1, and scouting a character forwards and summoning turn 1, is probably only a couple of inches at best.

It does keep them off the table if you don't get first turn, which is good... but is it good enough to be worth the CP and risk?

I'm not sure it's enough, it doesnt seem to have much advantage over normal summoning (which doesn't get used much as it is). I could well be wrong, I'm just not sure where the benefit is.

Why not summoning a bunch off Plague bearers?
MoP, forward, spell to summon, probably a reroll.
that would be 15 " into the mid field.

Exactly, there’s some Daemon units that have decent synergy with it

The three slow tough units - Plaguebearers, BoNs, and Soulgrinders - might be reaching a bit to charge, but being in the opponent’s face on T1 is still pretty decent

If it’s a 24” apart deployment with no enemy midfield infiltrators, Horrors don’t get to shoot at full effect. If you get T1, they have to advance, losing at least a quarter or their hits. If you lose T1, they get shot at, perhaps taking them below the critical mass of 20

Likewise, Flamers - which arguably should be a situationally summoned counter to Culexus and hit modifier spam - have a threat radius of 24”, making them unable to get within range at the start of a 24” deployment game

Main problem is that to be sure of rolling a 12 to summon 30 Horrors or a grinder, you want to be a Word Bearer. Still doable with a MoP Advancing out of a vehicle, though it relies on a psychic test - the AL variant on the gimmick brings redundancy in numbers

If your FO squads are equipped for a midfield role - Noise Marines, chaincannons, Oblits, etc - then making the FO summoner a Chaos Lord or gunline support DA means they’ll also be benefitting your midfielders

 lindsay40k wrote:
Exactly, there’s some Daemon units that have decent synergy with it

The three slow tough units - Plaguebearers, BoNs, and Soulgrinders - might be reaching a bit to charge, but being in the opponent’s face on T1 is still pretty decent

If it’s a 24” apart deployment with no enemy midfield infiltrators, Horrors don’t get to shoot at full effect. If you get T1, they have to advance, losing at least a quarter or their hits. If you lose T1, they get shot at, perhaps taking them below the critical mass of 20

Likewise, Flamers - which arguably should be a situationally summoned counter to Culexus and hit modifier spam - have a threat radius of 24”, making them unable to get within range at the start of a 24” deployment game

Main problem is that to be sure of rolling a 12 to summon 30 Horrors or a grinder, you want to be a Word Bearer. Still doable with a MoP Advancing out of a vehicle, though it relies on a psychic test - the AL variant on the gimmick brings redundancy in numbers

If your FO squads are equipped for a midfield role - Noise Marines, chaincannons, Oblits, etc - then making the FO summoner a Chaos Lord or gunline support DA means they’ll also be benefitting your midfielders

The issue might be the summoned ammount of plague bearers.
but in a 1000 pts game that could absolutely work out, summoning on demand tarpit and contesting the midfield with units that are difficult to wipe.
In bigger games i feel like the summoning scales badly and just leads to them beeing shot of the table.

Had success yesterday in a casual 2500pt game against Dark Angels. Didn’t even use my termie bomb waiting in deep strike (player GG’d after his turn 3, he went first)

I had some demon-engine camping in the back with a daemon prince for rerolls and prescience all Alpha Legion + Slannesh. Consisted of 2 venom crawlers and 2 forgefiends. My friend had some termies approaching but not enough to take out the venomcrawlers+ prince and some world eater allied bezerkers dealt with his smash captains before they joined the skull throne. And of course lots of cultist absorbing fire. Happy I got to try out the new shock assault rule with the WE bezerkers. Definitely helped against storm shield shenanigans.

Oh and the game store had a poorly painted new Abby model for cheap I can’t wait to strip, paint and try out. Haven’t played with Black Legion but I got plenty of cultists I wouldn’t mind being fearless heh.

 lindsay40k wrote:
Exactly, there’s some Daemon units that have decent synergy with it

The three slow tough units - Plaguebearers, BoNs, and Soulgrinders - might be reaching a bit to charge, but being in the opponent’s face on T1 is still pretty decent

If it’s a 24” apart deployment with no enemy midfield infiltrators, Horrors don’t get to shoot at full effect. If you get T1, they have to advance, losing at least a quarter or their hits. If you lose T1, they get shot at, perhaps taking them below the critical mass of 20

Likewise, Flamers - which arguably should be a situationally summoned counter to Culexus and hit modifier spam - have a threat radius of 24”, making them unable to get within range at the start of a 24” deployment game

Main problem is that to be sure of rolling a 12 to summon 30 Horrors or a grinder, you want to be a Word Bearer. Still doable with a MoP Advancing out of a vehicle, though it relies on a psychic test - the AL variant on the gimmick brings redundancy in numbers

If your FO squads are equipped for a midfield role - Noise Marines, chaincannons, Oblits, etc - then making the FO summoner a Chaos Lord or gunline support DA means they’ll also be benefitting your midfielders

Although definitely not competitive by any means, i do run a 'for the lulz' list that uses summoning for roadblocking my opponent. I summon a Skull Altar with a shooty Knight, move+warptime a MoP next to it (i.e. 8" bubble of the Altar)
and summon via Incursion - if possible - 24 Letters directly infront of my opponents line. Warpcharge 7 isn't guaranteed, but its atleast somehting - and the Altar allows you to reroll any dice when summoning Khorne Daemon units,
which is kinda hilarious because you can roll an 18 - i.e. Big Red or his 'lesser' Bloodthirster friendo's.

The way I see it is that summoning in daemons T1 is legitimately useful for 3 reasons.

First, with MoP / AL shenanigans it can provide another way of clearing screens. Horrors and Flamers are the best at this and are both 225 points for full squads including an icon on the Horrors. Take Horrors for killing GEQ and Flamers for MEQ or units with -1 to hit or cover where their AP-1 comes in handy. Instead of a Bloodletter bomb coming down T2 and ripping through a screen they should have an easier time of getting into combat with more dangerous units.

Second, it can provide good board control. There is a popular daemons/chaos list at the moment that involves a big blob of PBs starting on the table and another one deep striking in on T2. The list tries to force the opponent into their deployment zone and prevent them from taking objectives. Summoning could be used in a similar way either by allowing both units to stay off the table at deployment and still come in on T1 and T2; or by letting the unit that normally comes in on T2 come down on T1.

Finally, it allows you to react to your opponent better. Previously I have never really rated this aspect of summoning because you are either bringing PBs or Horrors/Flamers, as all other daemons require pre-game stratagems or daemonic loci to function properly. However, now that SM T1 drop pod spam is back on the menu this could actually be really useful. Basically this will allow you to keep your daemons off the table T1 so that they are safe from the drop pods and then bring them in as a counter punch wherever you need them. Horrors or Flamers are still probably the only units you'll want to do this with as melee units are too unreliable.

saint_red wrote:
The way I see it is that summoning in daemons T1 is legitimately useful for 3 reasons.

First, with MoP / AL shenanigans it can provide another way of clearing screens. Horrors and Flamers are the best at this and are both 225 points for full squads including an icon on the Horrors. Take Horrors for killing GEQ and Flamers for MEQ or units with -1 to hit or cover where their AP-1 comes in handy. Instead of a Bloodletter bomb coming down T2 and ripping through a screen they should have an easier time of getting into combat with more dangerous units.

Second, it can provide good board control. There is a popular daemons/chaos list at the moment that involves a big blob of PBs starting on the table and another one deep striking in on T2. The list tries to force the opponent into their deployment zone and prevent them from taking objectives. Summoning could be used in a similar way either by allowing both units to stay off the table at deployment and still come in on T1 and T2; or by letting the unit that normally comes in on T2 come down on T1.

Finally, it allows you to react to your opponent better. Previously I have never really rated this aspect of summoning because you are either bringing PBs or Horrors/Flamers, as all other daemons require pre-game stratagems or daemonic loci to function properly. However, now that SM T1 drop pod spam is back on the menu this could actually be really useful. Basically this will allow you to keep your daemons off the table T1 so that they are safe from the drop pods and then bring them in as a counter punch wherever you need them. Horrors or Flamers are still probably the only units you'll want to do this with as melee units are too unreliable.

TBF, i don't think the Drop pods will be an issue, due to cultist screens etc still beeing a thing. Also mostly due to their pricetag.
Altough i think that there now could be a case where you want a AL cutlist blob to deny Deepstrike even more.
giving you more room to manouevre in it.

Definitely possible - we're going to have to see how the meta evolves but this does give us a solid counter that nobody else has access to. I would still really like to see summoning get a buff but I think now there are actually use cases for it. 6 months ago there were 0 reasons to use it.

Bah forget it, the next 6 months are marines and their supplements.

And SoB. (but there i can't be annoyed because finally they get something)

On a more somber note, i now mostly stopped running support in the form of R&H, so atleast there's always someone worse off.

What did turn out surprisingly effective was my Corsairs force. (centered around recycling). Altough even there the shortcomings show up obviously.


Btw can someone explain to my why the magma cutter is 12 pts?



Automatically Appended Next Post:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2019/08/21/the-regimental-standard-new-study-confirms-guardsmen-better-than-cultists/


What was that, about salting the ground? Or was it wound?
Can't remember

Has anyone actually used the vindicator with the new D6 shots in a game? If so how did it preform?

 xeen wrote:
Has anyone actually used the vindicator with the new D6 shots in a game? If so how did it preform?

Yep.
Turn one dead.

People still are afraid of the thing.
but it swallowed decent fire for it's cost.

Even before the change thats what my Vindicator did. For 125 points it absorbed the same amount of threat that a land raider or knight would. Its a great distraction carnifex, oddly enough.

 vaklor4 wrote:
Even before the change thats what my Vindicator did. For 125 points it absorbed the same amount of threat that a land raider or knight would. Its a great distraction carnifex, oddly enough.

Tbf i did give it -1 to hit.
And my enemy got traumatised once by it in older editions and might have a vendetta against it.
But worth it