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Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Not Online!!! wrote:
orkswubwub wrote:
To add the Kytan is stuck with a 5++ (I think) whereas the knights typically are on 4++ for 1CP which makes them significantly more durable when being hit with high AP d6 weapons at range. Most gunline armies will practically shoot a 4++ knight off the table in one turn so the kytan suffers. Particularly as most lists will now be bringing heavy anti-armor post the Chaos Knight Codex.


MoP cursed earth.

That would be another 98 pts though.


Thanks for the reminder. Also requires you to go first to get the psychic ability off which can be damaging (and running a list where a MoP has a place - not seeing many of these guys at the top tables). And while Vect exists, the psychic ability is probably less reliable. In any case, a few reasons why the kytan might not be seeing much competitive play.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/07/25 15:23:51


 
   
Made in de
Nihilistic Necron Lord






Germany

Not Online!!! wrote:

MoP cursed earth.

That would be another 98 pts though.


Cursed earth can fail, or can be denied. What if you dont get first turn ? No cursed earth. What when the kytan is launched ~26" towards the enemy ? Cursed earth is only 6" aura. A kytan isnt really viable, now that we have chaos knights.
   
Made in gb
Huge Hierodule






Nottingham (yay!)

MoP (and a darkness DA) (and a warptimer) will cost more points, of course, but if your army is built to make further use of them that’s not so bad. Cursed Earth is an aura, so it can also benefit Defilers, Fiends, Oblits or Possessed. DA can make Cultists last longer if you’re not doing an Abaddon castle. If you’re not doing Khorne Daemonkin, you’re probably going to do something with Warptime, and if you’ve got a TITANIC HERETIC ASTARTES unit it may as well be that.

Of course, MoP CE being a short ranged aura makes it a bit of a ball-and-chain for a unit that’s going to run 12+2D6”. So really, the darkness DA is about the best option for a Kytan (or LoS) endurance buff.

   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




So I'm kind of interested in a side-by-side comparison of the new FW wardogs and the FW dreads we've been seeing a bunch of.

I'm actually feeling pretty favorable. There is a major anti-infantry gun on there which feels quite worth it. 2x H6 Str 6 ap -2 1 damage with the Tesla rule (2 bonus hits on a roll of 6 to hit). That's right around 12 hits on average, a pretty good target for an infernal gun bump. Kills 10.5 Guardsman on average vs the butcher cannon contemptor which kills 4.5 or the C-beamer which kills about 7.

It'll be better in the anti-horde shooting role than the butcher cannons and probably than even the C-beam. Runs just 10 points more than a contemptor. Much faster 14 vs 9, toughness is probably a wash (knight has +2W, but no melee invuln). Legions traits vs Knight traits...probably favors the knight in anything other than Alpha legion.

We've kind of been craving anti-horde shooting. I feel like two of these guys + a dual thermal knight might be an excellent firebase for us, given that FW dreads were already great. That'd be an excellent way to clear a path for some lord discos to charge through.
   
Made in us
Been Around the Block




So I'm at the point in the game where I'm at kind of an intermediate level. Everyone around me is better or I feel bad picking on n00bs. I figure I have 3 options, try a new faction, try building another CSM list, or quit.

This is where I'm thinking of starting
Spoiler:


++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Chaos - Chaos Space Marines) [39 PL, 10CP, 735pts] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

Battle-forged CP [3CP]

Detachment CP [5CP]

Gametype: Matched

Legion [3CP]: Red Corsairs

Specialist Detachment [-1CP]: Soulforged Pack

+ HQ +

Lord Discordant on Helstalker [9 PL, 180pts]: Baleflamer, No Chaos Mark
. Helstalker: Techno-virus injector

Lord Discordant on Helstalker [9 PL, 180pts]: Baleflamer, No Chaos Mark
. Helstalker: Techno-virus injector

Lord Discordant on Helstalker [9 PL, 180pts]: Baleflamer, No Chaos Mark
. Helstalker: Techno-virus injector

+ Troops +

Chaos Space Marines [4 PL, 65pts]: No Chaos Mark
. Aspiring Champion: Bolt pistol, Boltgun
. 4x Marine w/ Boltgun

Chaos Space Marines [4 PL, 65pts]: No Chaos Mark
. Aspiring Champion: Bolt pistol, Boltgun
. 4x Marine w/ Boltgun

Chaos Space Marines [4 PL, 65pts]: No Chaos Mark
. Aspiring Champion: Bolt pistol, Boltgun
. 4x Marine w/ Boltgun

++ Total: [39 PL, 10CP, 735pts] ++

Created with BattleScribe

but I'm not sure where to go from there, or even if this is a good base list.

this is what I have, I can buy more.
Spoiler:

++ Unbound Army (Faction) (Chaos - Chaos Space Marines) [154 PL, 2,776pts] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

Dark Disciples [1 PL, 10pts]: 2x Dark Disciple

Legion: Black Legion

+ HQ +

Chaos Lord [5 PL, 100pts]: No Chaos Mark, Plasma pistol, Thunder hammer

Dark Apostle [5 PL, 100pts]: No Chaos Mark

Haarken Worldclaimer [6 PL, 115pts]

Lord Discordant on Helstalker [9 PL, 160pts]: Autocannon, No Chaos Mark
. Helstalker: Techno-virus injector

Master of Possession [5 PL, 98pts]: Force stave, No Chaos Mark

Sorcerer [6 PL, 98pts]: Bolt pistol, Force stave, No Chaos Mark

Sorcerer [6 PL, 98pts]: Bolt pistol, Force stave, No Chaos Mark

+ Troops +

Chaos Cultists [9 PL, 150pts]: No Chaos Mark
. 29x Chaos Cultist w/ Autogun
. Cultist Champion: Autogun

Chaos Cultists [9 PL, 150pts]: No Chaos Mark
. 29x Chaos Cultist w/ Autogun
. Cultist Champion: Autogun

Chaos Space Marines [4 PL, 82pts]: No Chaos Mark
. Aspiring Champion: Chainaxe, Plasma pistol
. 3x Marine w/ Chainsword
. Marine w/ special weapon: Plasma gun

Chaos Space Marines [8 PL, 101pts]: No Chaos Mark
. Aspiring Champion: Bolt pistol, Chainsword
. 5x Marine w/ Boltgun
. Marine w/ heavy weapon: Autocannon

Chaos Space Marines [8 PL, 104pts]: No Chaos Mark
. Aspiring Champion: Bolt pistol, Boltgun
. 7x Marine w/ Boltgun

+ Elites +

Greater Possessed [4 PL, 70pts]
. Greater Possessed: No Chaos Mark

Greater Possessed [4 PL, 70pts]
. Greater Possessed: No Chaos Mark

Helbrute [6 PL, 120pts]: Missile launcher, No Chaos Mark, Twin lascannon

+ Fast Attack +

Chaos Spawn [2 PL, 25pts]: Chaos Spawn, No Chaos Mark

Chaos Spawn [2 PL, 25pts]: Chaos Spawn, No Chaos Mark

Chaos Spawn [2 PL, 25pts]: Chaos Spawn, No Chaos Mark

+ Heavy Support +

Havocs [7 PL, 112pts]: No Chaos Mark
. Aspiring Champion: Chainsword, Combi-bolter
. 4x Havoc w/ autocannon: 4x Autocannon

Havocs [7 PL, 176pts]: No Chaos Mark
. Aspiring Champion: Chainsword, Flamer
. 4x Havoc w/ lascannon: 4x Lascannon

Havocs [7 PL, 156pts]: No Chaos Mark
. Aspiring Champion: Chainsword, Flamer
. 4x Havoc w/ missile launcher: 4x Missile launcher

Havocs [7 PL, 156pts]: No Chaos Mark
. Aspiring Champion: Chainsword, Flamer
. 4x Havoc w/ reaper chaincannon: 4x Reaper chaincannon

Obliterators [18 PL, 345pts]: No Chaos Mark, 3x Obliterator

Venomcrawler [7 PL, 130pts]: No Chaos Mark

++ Unbound Army (Faction) (Chaos - Daemons) [20 PL, 280pts] ++

+ HQ +

Fateskimmer [8 PL, 130pts]

+ Troops +

Horrors [12 PL, 150pts]
. 10x Blue Horror
. 10x Pair of Brimstone Horrors
. 10x Pink Horror

++ Total: [174 PL, 3,056pts] ++

Created with BattleScribe


This is my most recent list, but it's not really working for me
Spoiler:


++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Chaos - Chaos Space Marines) [52 PL, 9CP, 936pts] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

Battle-forged CP [3CP]

Council of Traitors [-1CP]

Dark Disciples [1 PL, 10pts]: 2x Dark Disciple

Detachment CP [5CP]

Legion: Black Legion

+ HQ +

Abaddon the Despoiler [12 PL, 2CP, 240pts]: Warlord

Dark Apostle [5 PL, 100pts]: 5. Trusted War-leader, Benediction of Darkness, Council of Traitors, Mark of Tzeentch, Mutating Invocation

Sorcerer [6 PL, 98pts]: Bolt pistol, Council of Traitors, Death Hex, Force stave, Mark of Nurgle, Miasma of Pestilence, Warp Lord

+ Troops +

Chaos Cultists [9 PL, 150pts]: No Chaos Mark
. 29x Chaos Cultist w/ Autogun
. Cultist Champion: Autogun

Chaos Cultists [9 PL, 150pts]: No Chaos Mark
. 29x Chaos Cultist w/ Autogun
. Cultist Champion: Autogun

Chaos Space Marines [8 PL, 163pts]: No Chaos Mark
. Aspiring Champion: Chainsword, Combi-plasma
. 7x Marine w/ Boltgun
. Marine w/ special weapon: Plasma gun
. Marine w/ special weapon: Plasma gun

+ Fast Attack +

Chaos Spawn [2 PL, 25pts]: Chaos Spawn, No Chaos Mark

++ Spearhead Detachment +1CP (Chaos - Chaos Space Marines) [54 PL, 1CP, 1,059pts] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

Detachment CP [1CP]

Legion: Black Legion

Specialist Detachment

+ HQ +

Lord Discordant on Helstalker [9 PL, 180pts]: Baleflamer, No Chaos Mark
. Helstalker: Techno-virus injector

Sorcerer [6 PL, 98pts]: Bolt pistol, Force stave, Mark of Tzeentch, Prescience, Weaver of Fates

+ Heavy Support +

Havocs [7 PL, 112pts]: Mark of Slaanesh
. Aspiring Champion: Chainsword, Combi-bolter
. 4x Havoc w/ autocannon: 4x Autocannon

Havocs [7 PL, 172pts]: Mark of Slaanesh
. Aspiring Champion: Chainsword, Combi-bolter
. 4x Havoc w/ lascannon: 4x Lascannon

Havocs [7 PL, 152pts]: Mark of Slaanesh
. Aspiring Champion: Chainsword, Combi-bolter
. 4x Havoc w/ missile launcher: 4x Missile launcher

Obliterators [18 PL, 345pts]: No Chaos Mark, 3x Obliterator

++ Total: [106 PL, 10CP, 1,995pts] ++

Created with BattleScribe

any help is appreciated
   
Made in ch
The Dread Evil Lord Varlak





 p5freak wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:

MoP cursed earth.

That would be another 98 pts though.


Cursed earth can fail, or can be denied. What if you dont get first turn ? No cursed earth. What when the kytan is launched ~26" towards the enemy ? Cursed earth is only 6" aura. A kytan isnt really viable, now that we have chaos knights.


I just answered the question if the ++save in improvable. It is.

I also agree about the point of Chaos knights doesn't however stop me from wishing that we would have functional as in decent enough daemonengines instead.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page
A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units."
Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?"
Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?"
GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!"
Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.  
   
Made in us
Daemonic Dreadnought





Eye of Terror

xenoterracide wrote:
So I'm at the point in the game where I'm at kind of an intermediate level. Everyone around me is better or I feel bad picking on n00bs. I figure I have 3 options, try a new faction, try building another CSM list, or quit.

This is where I'm thinking of starting
Spoiler:


++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Chaos - Chaos Space Marines) [39 PL, 10CP, 735pts] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

Battle-forged CP [3CP]

Detachment CP [5CP]

Gametype: Matched

Legion [3CP]: Red Corsairs

Specialist Detachment [-1CP]: Soulforged Pack

+ HQ +

Lord Discordant on Helstalker [9 PL, 180pts]: Baleflamer, No Chaos Mark
. Helstalker: Techno-virus injector

Lord Discordant on Helstalker [9 PL, 180pts]: Baleflamer, No Chaos Mark
. Helstalker: Techno-virus injector

Lord Discordant on Helstalker [9 PL, 180pts]: Baleflamer, No Chaos Mark
. Helstalker: Techno-virus injector

+ Troops +

Chaos Space Marines [4 PL, 65pts]: No Chaos Mark
. Aspiring Champion: Bolt pistol, Boltgun
. 4x Marine w/ Boltgun

Chaos Space Marines [4 PL, 65pts]: No Chaos Mark
. Aspiring Champion: Bolt pistol, Boltgun
. 4x Marine w/ Boltgun

Chaos Space Marines [4 PL, 65pts]: No Chaos Mark
. Aspiring Champion: Bolt pistol, Boltgun
. 4x Marine w/ Boltgun

++ Total: [39 PL, 10CP, 735pts] ++

Created with BattleScribe

but I'm not sure where to go from there, or even if this is a good base list.

this is what I have, I can buy more.
Spoiler:

++ Unbound Army (Faction) (Chaos - Chaos Space Marines) [154 PL, 2,776pts] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

Dark Disciples [1 PL, 10pts]: 2x Dark Disciple

Legion: Black Legion

+ HQ +

Chaos Lord [5 PL, 100pts]: No Chaos Mark, Plasma pistol, Thunder hammer

Dark Apostle [5 PL, 100pts]: No Chaos Mark

Haarken Worldclaimer [6 PL, 115pts]

Lord Discordant on Helstalker [9 PL, 160pts]: Autocannon, No Chaos Mark
. Helstalker: Techno-virus injector

Master of Possession [5 PL, 98pts]: Force stave, No Chaos Mark

Sorcerer [6 PL, 98pts]: Bolt pistol, Force stave, No Chaos Mark

Sorcerer [6 PL, 98pts]: Bolt pistol, Force stave, No Chaos Mark

+ Troops +

Chaos Cultists [9 PL, 150pts]: No Chaos Mark
. 29x Chaos Cultist w/ Autogun
. Cultist Champion: Autogun

Chaos Cultists [9 PL, 150pts]: No Chaos Mark
. 29x Chaos Cultist w/ Autogun
. Cultist Champion: Autogun

Chaos Space Marines [4 PL, 82pts]: No Chaos Mark
. Aspiring Champion: Chainaxe, Plasma pistol
. 3x Marine w/ Chainsword
. Marine w/ special weapon: Plasma gun

Chaos Space Marines [8 PL, 101pts]: No Chaos Mark
. Aspiring Champion: Bolt pistol, Chainsword
. 5x Marine w/ Boltgun
. Marine w/ heavy weapon: Autocannon

Chaos Space Marines [8 PL, 104pts]: No Chaos Mark
. Aspiring Champion: Bolt pistol, Boltgun
. 7x Marine w/ Boltgun

+ Elites +

Greater Possessed [4 PL, 70pts]
. Greater Possessed: No Chaos Mark

Greater Possessed [4 PL, 70pts]
. Greater Possessed: No Chaos Mark

Helbrute [6 PL, 120pts]: Missile launcher, No Chaos Mark, Twin lascannon

+ Fast Attack +

Chaos Spawn [2 PL, 25pts]: Chaos Spawn, No Chaos Mark

Chaos Spawn [2 PL, 25pts]: Chaos Spawn, No Chaos Mark

Chaos Spawn [2 PL, 25pts]: Chaos Spawn, No Chaos Mark

+ Heavy Support +

Havocs [7 PL, 112pts]: No Chaos Mark
. Aspiring Champion: Chainsword, Combi-bolter
. 4x Havoc w/ autocannon: 4x Autocannon

Havocs [7 PL, 176pts]: No Chaos Mark
. Aspiring Champion: Chainsword, Flamer
. 4x Havoc w/ lascannon: 4x Lascannon

Havocs [7 PL, 156pts]: No Chaos Mark
. Aspiring Champion: Chainsword, Flamer
. 4x Havoc w/ missile launcher: 4x Missile launcher

Havocs [7 PL, 156pts]: No Chaos Mark
. Aspiring Champion: Chainsword, Flamer
. 4x Havoc w/ reaper chaincannon: 4x Reaper chaincannon

Obliterators [18 PL, 345pts]: No Chaos Mark, 3x Obliterator

Venomcrawler [7 PL, 130pts]: No Chaos Mark

++ Unbound Army (Faction) (Chaos - Daemons) [20 PL, 280pts] ++

+ HQ +

Fateskimmer [8 PL, 130pts]

+ Troops +

Horrors [12 PL, 150pts]
. 10x Blue Horror
. 10x Pair of Brimstone Horrors
. 10x Pink Horror

++ Total: [174 PL, 3,056pts] ++

Created with BattleScribe


This is my most recent list, but it's not really working for me
Spoiler:


++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Chaos - Chaos Space Marines) [52 PL, 9CP, 936pts] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

Battle-forged CP [3CP]

Council of Traitors [-1CP]

Dark Disciples [1 PL, 10pts]: 2x Dark Disciple

Detachment CP [5CP]

Legion: Black Legion

+ HQ +

Abaddon the Despoiler [12 PL, 2CP, 240pts]: Warlord

Dark Apostle [5 PL, 100pts]: 5. Trusted War-leader, Benediction of Darkness, Council of Traitors, Mark of Tzeentch, Mutating Invocation

Sorcerer [6 PL, 98pts]: Bolt pistol, Council of Traitors, Death Hex, Force stave, Mark of Nurgle, Miasma of Pestilence, Warp Lord

+ Troops +

Chaos Cultists [9 PL, 150pts]: No Chaos Mark
. 29x Chaos Cultist w/ Autogun
. Cultist Champion: Autogun

Chaos Cultists [9 PL, 150pts]: No Chaos Mark
. 29x Chaos Cultist w/ Autogun
. Cultist Champion: Autogun

Chaos Space Marines [8 PL, 163pts]: No Chaos Mark
. Aspiring Champion: Chainsword, Combi-plasma
. 7x Marine w/ Boltgun
. Marine w/ special weapon: Plasma gun
. Marine w/ special weapon: Plasma gun

+ Fast Attack +

Chaos Spawn [2 PL, 25pts]: Chaos Spawn, No Chaos Mark

++ Spearhead Detachment +1CP (Chaos - Chaos Space Marines) [54 PL, 1CP, 1,059pts] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

Detachment CP [1CP]

Legion: Black Legion

Specialist Detachment

+ HQ +

Lord Discordant on Helstalker [9 PL, 180pts]: Baleflamer, No Chaos Mark
. Helstalker: Techno-virus injector

Sorcerer [6 PL, 98pts]: Bolt pistol, Force stave, Mark of Tzeentch, Prescience, Weaver of Fates

+ Heavy Support +

Havocs [7 PL, 112pts]: Mark of Slaanesh
. Aspiring Champion: Chainsword, Combi-bolter
. 4x Havoc w/ autocannon: 4x Autocannon

Havocs [7 PL, 172pts]: Mark of Slaanesh
. Aspiring Champion: Chainsword, Combi-bolter
. 4x Havoc w/ lascannon: 4x Lascannon

Havocs [7 PL, 152pts]: Mark of Slaanesh
. Aspiring Champion: Chainsword, Combi-bolter
. 4x Havoc w/ missile launcher: 4x Missile launcher

Obliterators [18 PL, 345pts]: No Chaos Mark, 3x Obliterator

++ Total: [106 PL, 10CP, 1,995pts] ++

Created with BattleScribe

any help is appreciated


There's several people running triple LDs at my FLGS. They do okay but get outclassed by Orks and Eldar. Fine to build a list around them, but I wouldn't look at them as a silver bullet. Look at Defilers, Helbrutes and cheap troops to round it out.

Can you talk more about what's going wrong with the recent list? Is there a specific army you're having trouble with, is there a specific point in games where it breaks down, do you just not like the list, or is it something else?

You've got a lot of heavy weapons and 5 HQs. The mid-range units are 60 Cultists and 10 CSMs. I'm guessing most games involve running up the middle with the troops / LD, deep striking Abaddon with the Obliterators, and letting the Havocs hang back and shoot. You're probably losing a lot of Havocs and Cultists first turn, hitting back hard second turn, then trading blows until one side sputters.

My concern is there's not enough priority targets and the majority of your offense is concentrated in a few units. The Havocs, Lord Dischordant and Obliterators - 5 units - are your heavy hitters. You lose a lot of firepower each time one goes down. Once they're gone, you're relying on Cultists, a CSM squad, HQs and a Spawn to beat your opponent mid-range.

If I was going to optimize this list, I'd be focused on spreading out the offense, increasing the total number of wounds, and creating some legitimate close combat threats.




   
Made in ch
The Dread Evil Lord Varlak





xenoterracide wrote:
So I'm at the point in the game where I'm at kind of an intermediate level. Everyone around me is better or I feel bad picking on n00bs. I figure I have 3 options, try a new faction, try building another CSM list, or quit.

This is where I'm thinking of starting
Spoiler:


++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Chaos - Chaos Space Marines) [39 PL, 10CP, 735pts] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

Battle-forged CP [3CP]

Detachment CP [5CP]

Gametype: Matched

Legion [3CP]: Red Corsairs

Specialist Detachment [-1CP]: Soulforged Pack

+ HQ +

Lord Discordant on Helstalker [9 PL, 180pts]: Baleflamer, No Chaos Mark
. Helstalker: Techno-virus injector

Lord Discordant on Helstalker [9 PL, 180pts]: Baleflamer, No Chaos Mark
. Helstalker: Techno-virus injector

Lord Discordant on Helstalker [9 PL, 180pts]: Baleflamer, No Chaos Mark
. Helstalker: Techno-virus injector

+ Troops +

Chaos Space Marines [4 PL, 65pts]: No Chaos Mark
. Aspiring Champion: Bolt pistol, Boltgun
. 4x Marine w/ Boltgun

Chaos Space Marines [4 PL, 65pts]: No Chaos Mark
. Aspiring Champion: Bolt pistol, Boltgun
. 4x Marine w/ Boltgun

Chaos Space Marines [4 PL, 65pts]: No Chaos Mark
. Aspiring Champion: Bolt pistol, Boltgun
. 4x Marine w/ Boltgun

++ Total: [39 PL, 10CP, 735pts] ++

Created with BattleScribe

but I'm not sure where to go from there, or even if this is a good base list.

this is what I have, I can buy more.
Spoiler:

++ Unbound Army (Faction) (Chaos - Chaos Space Marines) [154 PL, 2,776pts] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

Dark Disciples [1 PL, 10pts]: 2x Dark Disciple

Legion: Black Legion

+ HQ +

Chaos Lord [5 PL, 100pts]: No Chaos Mark, Plasma pistol, Thunder hammer

Dark Apostle [5 PL, 100pts]: No Chaos Mark

Haarken Worldclaimer [6 PL, 115pts]

Lord Discordant on Helstalker [9 PL, 160pts]: Autocannon, No Chaos Mark
. Helstalker: Techno-virus injector

Master of Possession [5 PL, 98pts]: Force stave, No Chaos Mark

Sorcerer [6 PL, 98pts]: Bolt pistol, Force stave, No Chaos Mark

Sorcerer [6 PL, 98pts]: Bolt pistol, Force stave, No Chaos Mark

+ Troops +

Chaos Cultists [9 PL, 150pts]: No Chaos Mark
. 29x Chaos Cultist w/ Autogun
. Cultist Champion: Autogun

Chaos Cultists [9 PL, 150pts]: No Chaos Mark
. 29x Chaos Cultist w/ Autogun
. Cultist Champion: Autogun

Chaos Space Marines [4 PL, 82pts]: No Chaos Mark
. Aspiring Champion: Chainaxe, Plasma pistol
. 3x Marine w/ Chainsword
. Marine w/ special weapon: Plasma gun

Chaos Space Marines [8 PL, 101pts]: No Chaos Mark
. Aspiring Champion: Bolt pistol, Chainsword
. 5x Marine w/ Boltgun
. Marine w/ heavy weapon: Autocannon

Chaos Space Marines [8 PL, 104pts]: No Chaos Mark
. Aspiring Champion: Bolt pistol, Boltgun
. 7x Marine w/ Boltgun

+ Elites +

Greater Possessed [4 PL, 70pts]
. Greater Possessed: No Chaos Mark

Greater Possessed [4 PL, 70pts]
. Greater Possessed: No Chaos Mark

Helbrute [6 PL, 120pts]: Missile launcher, No Chaos Mark, Twin lascannon

+ Fast Attack +

Chaos Spawn [2 PL, 25pts]: Chaos Spawn, No Chaos Mark

Chaos Spawn [2 PL, 25pts]: Chaos Spawn, No Chaos Mark

Chaos Spawn [2 PL, 25pts]: Chaos Spawn, No Chaos Mark

+ Heavy Support +

Havocs [7 PL, 112pts]: No Chaos Mark
. Aspiring Champion: Chainsword, Combi-bolter
. 4x Havoc w/ autocannon: 4x Autocannon

Havocs [7 PL, 176pts]: No Chaos Mark
. Aspiring Champion: Chainsword, Flamer
. 4x Havoc w/ lascannon: 4x Lascannon

Havocs [7 PL, 156pts]: No Chaos Mark
. Aspiring Champion: Chainsword, Flamer
. 4x Havoc w/ missile launcher: 4x Missile launcher

Havocs [7 PL, 156pts]: No Chaos Mark
. Aspiring Champion: Chainsword, Flamer
. 4x Havoc w/ reaper chaincannon: 4x Reaper chaincannon

Obliterators [18 PL, 345pts]: No Chaos Mark, 3x Obliterator

Venomcrawler [7 PL, 130pts]: No Chaos Mark

++ Unbound Army (Faction) (Chaos - Daemons) [20 PL, 280pts] ++

+ HQ +

Fateskimmer [8 PL, 130pts]

+ Troops +

Horrors [12 PL, 150pts]
. 10x Blue Horror
. 10x Pair of Brimstone Horrors
. 10x Pink Horror

++ Total: [174 PL, 3,056pts] ++

Created with BattleScribe


This is my most recent list, but it's not really working for me
Spoiler:


++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Chaos - Chaos Space Marines) [52 PL, 9CP, 936pts] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

Battle-forged CP [3CP]

Council of Traitors [-1CP]

Dark Disciples [1 PL, 10pts]: 2x Dark Disciple

Detachment CP [5CP]

Legion: Black Legion

+ HQ +

Abaddon the Despoiler [12 PL, 2CP, 240pts]: Warlord

Dark Apostle [5 PL, 100pts]: 5. Trusted War-leader, Benediction of Darkness, Council of Traitors, Mark of Tzeentch, Mutating Invocation

Sorcerer [6 PL, 98pts]: Bolt pistol, Council of Traitors, Death Hex, Force stave, Mark of Nurgle, Miasma of Pestilence, Warp Lord

+ Troops +

Chaos Cultists [9 PL, 150pts]: No Chaos Mark
. 29x Chaos Cultist w/ Autogun
. Cultist Champion: Autogun

Chaos Cultists [9 PL, 150pts]: No Chaos Mark
. 29x Chaos Cultist w/ Autogun
. Cultist Champion: Autogun

Chaos Space Marines [8 PL, 163pts]: No Chaos Mark
. Aspiring Champion: Chainsword, Combi-plasma
. 7x Marine w/ Boltgun
. Marine w/ special weapon: Plasma gun
. Marine w/ special weapon: Plasma gun

+ Fast Attack +

Chaos Spawn [2 PL, 25pts]: Chaos Spawn, No Chaos Mark

++ Spearhead Detachment +1CP (Chaos - Chaos Space Marines) [54 PL, 1CP, 1,059pts] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

Detachment CP [1CP]

Legion: Black Legion

Specialist Detachment

+ HQ +

Lord Discordant on Helstalker [9 PL, 180pts]: Baleflamer, No Chaos Mark
. Helstalker: Techno-virus injector

Sorcerer [6 PL, 98pts]: Bolt pistol, Force stave, Mark of Tzeentch, Prescience, Weaver of Fates

+ Heavy Support +

Havocs [7 PL, 112pts]: Mark of Slaanesh
. Aspiring Champion: Chainsword, Combi-bolter
. 4x Havoc w/ autocannon: 4x Autocannon

Havocs [7 PL, 172pts]: Mark of Slaanesh
. Aspiring Champion: Chainsword, Combi-bolter
. 4x Havoc w/ lascannon: 4x Lascannon

Havocs [7 PL, 152pts]: Mark of Slaanesh
. Aspiring Champion: Chainsword, Combi-bolter
. 4x Havoc w/ missile launcher: 4x Missile launcher

Obliterators [18 PL, 345pts]: No Chaos Mark, 3x Obliterator

++ Total: [106 PL, 10CP, 1,995pts] ++

Created with BattleScribe

any help is appreciated


Firstly, you play black legion as main trait. That is a problem.
Secondly, Mark the cultists. Slaanesh.
Chance sorcerer to Slaanesh.
Throw out the baleflamer, the AC is cheaper.
Oblits need to be Slaanesh or nurgle with the right soup.
Cut the marines down too 5.
Consider running 10 man cultists squads instead.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page
A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units."
Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?"
Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?"
GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!"
Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.  
   
Made in ch
The Dread Evil Lord Varlak





 techsoldaten wrote:
xenoterracide wrote:
So I'm at the point in the game where I'm at kind of an intermediate level. Everyone around me is better or I feel bad picking on n00bs. I figure I have 3 options, try a new faction, try building another CSM list, or quit.

This is where I'm thinking of starting
Spoiler:


++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Chaos - Chaos Space Marines) [39 PL, 10CP, 735pts] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

Battle-forged CP [3CP]

Detachment CP [5CP]

Gametype: Matched

Legion [3CP]: Red Corsairs

Specialist Detachment [-1CP]: Soulforged Pack

+ HQ +

Lord Discordant on Helstalker [9 PL, 180pts]: Baleflamer, No Chaos Mark
. Helstalker: Techno-virus injector

Lord Discordant on Helstalker [9 PL, 180pts]: Baleflamer, No Chaos Mark
. Helstalker: Techno-virus injector

Lord Discordant on Helstalker [9 PL, 180pts]: Baleflamer, No Chaos Mark
. Helstalker: Techno-virus injector

+ Troops +

Chaos Space Marines [4 PL, 65pts]: No Chaos Mark
. Aspiring Champion: Bolt pistol, Boltgun
. 4x Marine w/ Boltgun

Chaos Space Marines [4 PL, 65pts]: No Chaos Mark
. Aspiring Champion: Bolt pistol, Boltgun
. 4x Marine w/ Boltgun

Chaos Space Marines [4 PL, 65pts]: No Chaos Mark
. Aspiring Champion: Bolt pistol, Boltgun
. 4x Marine w/ Boltgun

++ Total: [39 PL, 10CP, 735pts] ++

Created with BattleScribe

but I'm not sure where to go from there, or even if this is a good base list.

this is what I have, I can buy more.
Spoiler:

++ Unbound Army (Faction) (Chaos - Chaos Space Marines) [154 PL, 2,776pts] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

Dark Disciples [1 PL, 10pts]: 2x Dark Disciple

Legion: Black Legion

+ HQ +

Chaos Lord [5 PL, 100pts]: No Chaos Mark, Plasma pistol, Thunder hammer

Dark Apostle [5 PL, 100pts]: No Chaos Mark

Haarken Worldclaimer [6 PL, 115pts]

Lord Discordant on Helstalker [9 PL, 160pts]: Autocannon, No Chaos Mark
. Helstalker: Techno-virus injector

Master of Possession [5 PL, 98pts]: Force stave, No Chaos Mark

Sorcerer [6 PL, 98pts]: Bolt pistol, Force stave, No Chaos Mark

Sorcerer [6 PL, 98pts]: Bolt pistol, Force stave, No Chaos Mark

+ Troops +

Chaos Cultists [9 PL, 150pts]: No Chaos Mark
. 29x Chaos Cultist w/ Autogun
. Cultist Champion: Autogun

Chaos Cultists [9 PL, 150pts]: No Chaos Mark
. 29x Chaos Cultist w/ Autogun
. Cultist Champion: Autogun

Chaos Space Marines [4 PL, 82pts]: No Chaos Mark
. Aspiring Champion: Chainaxe, Plasma pistol
. 3x Marine w/ Chainsword
. Marine w/ special weapon: Plasma gun

Chaos Space Marines [8 PL, 101pts]: No Chaos Mark
. Aspiring Champion: Bolt pistol, Chainsword
. 5x Marine w/ Boltgun
. Marine w/ heavy weapon: Autocannon

Chaos Space Marines [8 PL, 104pts]: No Chaos Mark
. Aspiring Champion: Bolt pistol, Boltgun
. 7x Marine w/ Boltgun

+ Elites +

Greater Possessed [4 PL, 70pts]
. Greater Possessed: No Chaos Mark

Greater Possessed [4 PL, 70pts]
. Greater Possessed: No Chaos Mark

Helbrute [6 PL, 120pts]: Missile launcher, No Chaos Mark, Twin lascannon

+ Fast Attack +

Chaos Spawn [2 PL, 25pts]: Chaos Spawn, No Chaos Mark

Chaos Spawn [2 PL, 25pts]: Chaos Spawn, No Chaos Mark

Chaos Spawn [2 PL, 25pts]: Chaos Spawn, No Chaos Mark

+ Heavy Support +

Havocs [7 PL, 112pts]: No Chaos Mark
. Aspiring Champion: Chainsword, Combi-bolter
. 4x Havoc w/ autocannon: 4x Autocannon

Havocs [7 PL, 176pts]: No Chaos Mark
. Aspiring Champion: Chainsword, Flamer
. 4x Havoc w/ lascannon: 4x Lascannon

Havocs [7 PL, 156pts]: No Chaos Mark
. Aspiring Champion: Chainsword, Flamer
. 4x Havoc w/ missile launcher: 4x Missile launcher

Havocs [7 PL, 156pts]: No Chaos Mark
. Aspiring Champion: Chainsword, Flamer
. 4x Havoc w/ reaper chaincannon: 4x Reaper chaincannon

Obliterators [18 PL, 345pts]: No Chaos Mark, 3x Obliterator

Venomcrawler [7 PL, 130pts]: No Chaos Mark

++ Unbound Army (Faction) (Chaos - Daemons) [20 PL, 280pts] ++

+ HQ +

Fateskimmer [8 PL, 130pts]

+ Troops +

Horrors [12 PL, 150pts]
. 10x Blue Horror
. 10x Pair of Brimstone Horrors
. 10x Pink Horror

++ Total: [174 PL, 3,056pts] ++

Created with BattleScribe


This is my most recent list, but it's not really working for me
Spoiler:


++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Chaos - Chaos Space Marines) [52 PL, 9CP, 936pts] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

Battle-forged CP [3CP]

Council of Traitors [-1CP]

Dark Disciples [1 PL, 10pts]: 2x Dark Disciple

Detachment CP [5CP]

Legion: Black Legion

+ HQ +

Abaddon the Despoiler [12 PL, 2CP, 240pts]: Warlord

Dark Apostle [5 PL, 100pts]: 5. Trusted War-leader, Benediction of Darkness, Council of Traitors, Mark of Tzeentch, Mutating Invocation

Sorcerer [6 PL, 98pts]: Bolt pistol, Council of Traitors, Death Hex, Force stave, Mark of Nurgle, Miasma of Pestilence, Warp Lord

+ Troops +

Chaos Cultists [9 PL, 150pts]: No Chaos Mark
. 29x Chaos Cultist w/ Autogun
. Cultist Champion: Autogun

Chaos Cultists [9 PL, 150pts]: No Chaos Mark
. 29x Chaos Cultist w/ Autogun
. Cultist Champion: Autogun

Chaos Space Marines [8 PL, 163pts]: No Chaos Mark
. Aspiring Champion: Chainsword, Combi-plasma
. 7x Marine w/ Boltgun
. Marine w/ special weapon: Plasma gun
. Marine w/ special weapon: Plasma gun

+ Fast Attack +

Chaos Spawn [2 PL, 25pts]: Chaos Spawn, No Chaos Mark

++ Spearhead Detachment +1CP (Chaos - Chaos Space Marines) [54 PL, 1CP, 1,059pts] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

Detachment CP [1CP]

Legion: Black Legion

Specialist Detachment

+ HQ +

Lord Discordant on Helstalker [9 PL, 180pts]: Baleflamer, No Chaos Mark
. Helstalker: Techno-virus injector

Sorcerer [6 PL, 98pts]: Bolt pistol, Force stave, Mark of Tzeentch, Prescience, Weaver of Fates

+ Heavy Support +

Havocs [7 PL, 112pts]: Mark of Slaanesh
. Aspiring Champion: Chainsword, Combi-bolter
. 4x Havoc w/ autocannon: 4x Autocannon

Havocs [7 PL, 172pts]: Mark of Slaanesh
. Aspiring Champion: Chainsword, Combi-bolter
. 4x Havoc w/ lascannon: 4x Lascannon

Havocs [7 PL, 152pts]: Mark of Slaanesh
. Aspiring Champion: Chainsword, Combi-bolter
. 4x Havoc w/ missile launcher: 4x Missile launcher

Obliterators [18 PL, 345pts]: No Chaos Mark, 3x Obliterator

++ Total: [106 PL, 10CP, 1,995pts] ++

Created with BattleScribe

any help is appreciated


There's several people running triple LDs at my FLGS. They do okay but get outclassed by Orks and Eldar. Fine to build a list around them, but I wouldn't look at them as a silver bullet. Look at Defilers, Helbrutes and cheap troops to round it out.

Can you talk more about what's going wrong with the recent list? Is there a specific army you're having trouble with, is there a specific point in games where it breaks down, do you just not like the list, or is it something else?

You've got a lot of heavy weapons and 5 HQs. The mid-range units are 60 Cultists and 10 CSMs. I'm guessing most games involve running up the middle with the troops / LD, deep striking Abaddon with the Obliterators, and letting the Havocs hang back and shoot. You're probably losing a lot of Havocs and Cultists first turn, hitting back hard second turn, then trading blows until one side sputters.

My concern is there's not enough priority targets and the majority of your offense is concentrated in a few units. The Havocs, Lord Dischordant and Obliterators - 5 units - are your heavy hitters. You lose a lot of firepower each time one goes down. Once they're gone, you're relying on Cultists, a CSM squad, HQs and a Spawn to beat your opponent mid-range.

If I was going to optimize this list, I'd be focused on spreading out the offense, increasing the total number of wounds, and creating some legitimate close combat threats.





Also this.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page
A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units."
Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?"
Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?"
GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!"
Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.  
   
Made in us
Possessed Khorne Marine Covered in Spikes






Anyone ever tried using cheap Chosen units? I've been considering taking them with combi-bolters and chainswords (perhaps chain axes) for a cheap elite unit that can dump out a lot of shots and also fight in close combat. The plan was to kit them out like a grey knight unit (but without the over priced power weapon), so perhaps a couple combi-plasmas in there and a champion with a power fist. I'm wondering if they're worth it over Terminators or Bikers who also have access to combi-bolters but are much more expensive.

Blood for the Blood God!
Skulls for the Skull Throne! 
   
Made in ch
The Dread Evil Lord Varlak





 Kharneth wrote:
Anyone ever tried using cheap Chosen units? I've been considering taking them with combi-bolters and chainswords (perhaps chain axes) for a cheap elite unit that can dump out a lot of shots and also fight in close combat. The plan was to kit them out like a grey knight unit (but without the over priced power weapon), so perhaps a couple combi-plasmas in there and a champion with a power fist. I'm wondering if they're worth it over Terminators or Bikers who also have access to combi-bolters but are much more expensive.


I run a 5 man with 5 cb 's.
It's a nice little screen cleaner but not much else.
Might get interesting with VotLW.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page
A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units."
Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?"
Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?"
GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!"
Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.  
   
Made in gb
Dakka Veteran





Anyone field a shooty alpha legion army?? Trying to think of how to maximise the -1 to hit. Want 3 havoc squads in a devestation battery definitely and some oblits. Thinking of a battalion of mainly cultists and some CSM with a few termies with the rest of the army being a chaos Knights detachment.
   
Made in us
Been Around the Block




 techsoldaten wrote:

There's several people running triple LDs at my FLGS. They do okay but get outclassed by Orks and Eldar. Fine to build a list around them, but I wouldn't look at them as a silver bullet. Look at Defilers, Helbrutes and cheap troops to round it out.

Here I was worried about Tau, because charging Tau is like impossible because of that "everything in 6 inches gets to shoot overwatch". I haven't actually played against eldar yet or ork's yet, we don't have a lot of those in the local meta.


Can you talk more about what's going wrong with the recent list? Is there a specific army you're having trouble with, is there a specific point in games where it breaks down, do you just not like the list, or is it something else?

You've got a lot of heavy weapons and 5 HQs. The mid-range units are 60 Cultists and 10 CSMs. I'm guessing most games involve running up the middle with the troops / LD, deep striking Abaddon with the Obliterators, and letting the Havocs hang back and shoot. You're probably losing a lot of Havocs and Cultists first turn, hitting back hard second turn, then trading blows until one side sputters.


mobility is a big one, I realize I just don't have the movement I need to get objectives playing maelstrom. That's pretty much exactly what happened in a game vs admech, all my havocs were dead at the end of turn 1. I've been running abaddon up the middle with the cultists to keep them in his morale aura. So far abaddon does very little for me (and I don't have the new model, an old conversion, been running this list to figure out if I want the new model), if I get him into combat he seems to die fairly quickly to something that's a lot more pain causing. Maybe I shouldn't be trying to get him into melee and let him simply provide rerolls for shooty things. Usually by turn 4 I'm pretty well shot off the board.



My concern is there's not enough priority targets and the majority of your offense is concentrated in a few units. The Havocs, Lord Dischordant and Obliterators - 5 units - are your heavy hitters. You lose a lot of firepower each time one goes down. Once they're gone, you're relying on Cultists, a CSM squad, HQs and a Spawn to beat your opponent mid-range.

If I was going to optimize this list, I'd be focused on spreading out the offense, increasing the total number of wounds, and creating some legitimate close combat threats.


yeah, I don't disagree, but I feel like (and this isn't my first list, though it is at 2k) that my attempts to build a list all come out wrong, I'll make an attempt later today.
   
Made in us
Been Around the Block




xenoterracide wrote:
 techsoldaten wrote:

There's several people running triple LDs at my FLGS. They do okay but get outclassed by Orks and Eldar. Fine to build a list around them, but I wouldn't look at them as a silver bullet. Look at Defilers, Helbrutes and cheap troops to round it out.

Here I was worried about Tau, because charging Tau is like impossible because of that "everything in 6 inches gets to shoot overwatch". I haven't actually played against eldar yet or ork's yet, we don't have a lot of those in the local meta.


Well, at least they only get to do it once per unit, so hopefully you've got enough redundancy (or a moderately threatening unit to go in first to take the overwatch) to have multiple charge threats.
   
Made in gb
Huge Hierodule






Nottingham (yay!)

Rogerio134134 wrote:
Anyone field a shooty alpha legion army?? Trying to think of how to maximise the -1 to hit. Want 3 havoc squads in a devestation battery definitely and some oblits. Thinking of a battalion of mainly cultists and some CSM with a few termies with the rest of the army being a chaos Knights detachment.

I don’t, but I have given it some thought.

Devbat absolutely sounds good. Gatling gun squad can forwards deploy to really put pressure on screens, and punishing volley near guarantees a solid impact in the early game.

Slaaneshi DP with AL trait, Elixir, and Warptime (from self or from help) seems like a solid asset in Maelstrom. If you draw priority orders, it can Boromir without forfeiting many VPs.

Slaaneshi daemon support - especially Epitome - feels good. It lets the above DP advance & charge, does the same for a hypothetical Possessed squad that uses forward ops & Warptime to charge on T1. Throw in some Fiends and you’ve got a potential burning tarpit.

   
Made in gb
Dakka Veteran





 lindsay40k wrote:
Rogerio134134 wrote:
Anyone field a shooty alpha legion army?? Trying to think of how to maximise the -1 to hit. Want 3 havoc squads in a devestation battery definitely and some oblits. Thinking of a battalion of mainly cultists and some CSM with a few termies with the rest of the army being a chaos Knights detachment.

I don’t, but I have given it some thought.

Devbat absolutely sounds good. Gatling gun squad can forwards deploy to really put pressure on screens, and punishing volley near guarantees a solid impact in the early game.

Slaaneshi DP with AL trait, Elixir, and Warptime (from self or from help) seems like a solid asset in Maelstrom. If you draw priority orders, it can Boromir without forfeiting many VPs.

Slaaneshi daemon support - especially Epitome - feels good. It lets the above DP advance & charge, does the same for a hypothetical Possessed squad that uses forward ops & Warptime to charge on T1. Throw in some Fiends and you’ve got a potential burning tarpit.


Nice ideas there, I'm trying to avoid daemons if possible as I absolutely hate the Daemon prince model but they are great on the table.

I also looked at the very popular option of forgeworld dreads but I can literally buy a chaos Knight for the price of a single dread so it seems pointless.
   
Made in ch
The Dread Evil Lord Varlak





Rogerio134134 wrote:
 lindsay40k wrote:
Rogerio134134 wrote:
Anyone field a shooty alpha legion army?? Trying to think of how to maximise the -1 to hit. Want 3 havoc squads in a devestation battery definitely and some oblits. Thinking of a battalion of mainly cultists and some CSM with a few termies with the rest of the army being a chaos Knights detachment.

I don’t, but I have given it some thought.

Devbat absolutely sounds good. Gatling gun squad can forwards deploy to really put pressure on screens, and punishing volley near guarantees a solid impact in the early game.

Slaaneshi DP with AL trait, Elixir, and Warptime (from self or from help) seems like a solid asset in Maelstrom. If you draw priority orders, it can Boromir without forfeiting many VPs.

Slaaneshi daemon support - especially Epitome - feels good. It lets the above DP advance & charge, does the same for a hypothetical Possessed squad that uses forward ops & Warptime to charge on T1. Throw in some Fiends and you’ve got a potential burning tarpit.


Nice ideas there, I'm trying to avoid daemons if possible as I absolutely hate the Daemon prince model but they are great on the table.

I also looked at the very popular option of forgeworld dreads but I can literally buy a chaos Knight for the price of a single dread so it seems pointless.


then build a daemonprince!
Quite literally!

Lord discordants also get some use out of beeing AL.
The whole schtick of AL is also Cultists and agents so maybee field cultists as troop options in 10 man squads, i wouldn't necessarrily stack -1 to hits instead would go for slaanesh and the 5+++ you can cast. Sad matter is the DA is too expensive for what he does and mark of nurgle is rather meh for CSM.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page
A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units."
Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?"
Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?"
GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!"
Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.  
   
Made in de
Nihilistic Necron Lord






Germany

Daemons work very well with daemon engines. A fluxmaster will give tzeentch venomcrawlers S+1, and he can buff them with flickering flames/boon of change. Add a tzeentch greater possessed for another S+1. Same with a tzeentch disco lord. A changeling can give all your tzeentch daemon engines within 9" a 6+ FNP. You got 6 daemon engines ? Thats ~60 6+ FNP rolls. A tzeentch daemon prince let them re-roll 1s to hit, and can cast diabolic strength/warptime on them.
   
Made in ch
The Dread Evil Lord Varlak





 p5freak wrote:
Daemons work very well with daemon engines. A fluxmaster will give tzeentch venomcrawlers S+1, and he can buff them with flickering flames/boon of change. Add a tzeentch greater possessed for another S+1. Same with a tzeentch disco lord. A changeling can give all your tzeentch daemon engines within 9" a 6+ FNP. You got 6 daemon engines ? Thats ~60 6+ FNP rolls. A tzeentch daemon prince let them re-roll 1s to hit, and can cast diabolic strength/warptime on them.


That would however require the venomcrawler be actually good (or most other daemon engines).

And the venomcrawler is meh at best.
(also 6 pts more and you get a defiler which does everything the venomcrawler does but better.)

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page
A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units."
Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?"
Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?"
GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!"
Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.  
   
Made in us
Been Around the Block




ok, here's an intermediate replacement list, is this even worth playing?
Spoiler:

++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Chaos - Chaos Space Marines) [39 PL, 10CP, 735pts] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

Battle-forged CP [3CP]

Detachment CP [5CP]

Gametype: Matched

Legion [3CP]: Red Corsairs

Specialist Detachment [-1CP]: Soulforged Pack

+ HQ +

Lord Discordant on Helstalker [9 PL, 180pts]: Baleflamer, No Chaos Mark
. Helstalker: Techno-virus injector

Lord Discordant on Helstalker [9 PL, 180pts]: Baleflamer, No Chaos Mark
. Helstalker: Techno-virus injector

Lord Discordant on Helstalker [9 PL, 180pts]: Baleflamer, No Chaos Mark
. Helstalker: Techno-virus injector

+ Troops +

Chaos Space Marines [4 PL, 65pts]: No Chaos Mark
. Aspiring Champion: Bolt pistol, Boltgun
. 4x Marine w/ Boltgun

Chaos Space Marines [4 PL, 65pts]: No Chaos Mark
. Aspiring Champion: Bolt pistol, Boltgun
. 4x Marine w/ Boltgun

Chaos Space Marines [4 PL, 65pts]: No Chaos Mark
. Aspiring Champion: Bolt pistol, Boltgun
. 4x Marine w/ Boltgun

++ Spearhead Detachment +1CP (Chaos - Chaos Space Marines) [37 PL, , 743pts] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

Detachment CP [1CP]

Legion: Alpha Legion

Specialist Detachment [-1CP]: Devastation Battery

+ HQ +

Chaos Lord [5 PL, 74pts]: Bolt pistol, Chainsword, No Chaos Mark

+ Heavy Support +

Havocs [7 PL, 172pts]: Mark of Slaanesh
. Aspiring Champion: Chainsword, Combi-bolter
. 4x Havoc w/ lascannon: 4x Lascannon

Havocs [7 PL, 152pts]: Mark of Slaanesh
. Aspiring Champion: Chainsword, Combi-bolter
. 4x Havoc w/ missile launcher: 4x Missile launcher

Obliterators [18 PL, 345pts]: Mark of Slaanesh, 3x Obliterator

++ Vanguard Detachment +1CP (Chaos - Chaos Space Marines) [24 PL, 1CP, 458pts] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

Detachment CP [1CP]

Legion: Alpha Legion

+ HQ +

Sorcerer [6 PL, 98pts]: Bolt pistol, Death Hex, Force stave, No Chaos Mark, Warptime

+ Elites +

Helbrute [6 PL, 120pts]: Missile launcher, No Chaos Mark, Twin lascannon

Helbrute [6 PL, 120pts]: Missile launcher, No Chaos Mark, Twin lascannon

Helbrute [6 PL, 120pts]: Missile launcher, No Chaos Mark, Twin lascannon

++ Total: [100 PL, 11CP, 1,936pts] ++

Created with BattleScribe


and here's what I came up with for a "final" list

Spoiler:


++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Chaos - Chaos Space Marines) [39 PL, 10CP, 768pts] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

Battle-forged CP [3CP]

Detachment CP [5CP]

Gametype: Matched

Legion [3CP]: Red Corsairs

Specialist Detachment [-1CP]: Soulforged Pack

+ HQ +

Lord Discordant on Helstalker [9 PL, 180pts]: Baleflamer, No Chaos Mark
. Helstalker: Techno-virus injector

Lord Discordant on Helstalker [9 PL, 180pts]: Baleflamer, Intoxicating Elixir, Mark of Slaanesh, Reaver Lord Artefact
. Helstalker: Techno-virus injector

Lord Discordant on Helstalker [9 PL, 180pts]: Baleflamer, Mark of Slaanesh, Mecha-serpents, Reaver Lord, Warlord
. Helstalker: Techno-virus injector

+ Troops +

Chaos Space Marines [4 PL, 76pts]: No Chaos Mark
. Aspiring Champion: Bolt pistol, Chainsword
. 3x Marine w/ Boltgun
. Marine w/ special weapon: Plasma gun

Chaos Space Marines [4 PL, 76pts]: No Chaos Mark
. Aspiring Champion: Bolt pistol, Boltgun
. 3x Marine w/ Boltgun
. Marine w/ special weapon: Plasma gun

Chaos Space Marines [4 PL, 76pts]: No Chaos Mark
. Aspiring Champion: Bolt pistol, Boltgun
. 3x Marine w/ Boltgun
. Marine w/ special weapon: Plasma gun

++ Spearhead Detachment +1CP (Chaos - Chaos Space Marines) [41 PL, , 763pts] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

Detachment CP [1CP]

Legion: Alpha Legion

Specialist Detachment [-1CP]: Devastation Battery

+ HQ +

Chaos Lord [5 PL, 74pts]: Bolt pistol, Chainsword, No Chaos Mark

+ Heavy Support +

Defiler [9 PL, 172pts]: Defiler scourge, No Chaos Mark, Twin lascannon

Defiler [9 PL, 172pts]: Defiler scourge, No Chaos Mark, Twin lascannon

Obliterators [18 PL, 345pts]: Mark of Slaanesh, 3x Obliterator

++ Vanguard Detachment +1CP (Chaos - Chaos Space Marines) [24 PL, 1CP, 458pts] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

Detachment CP [1CP]

Legion: Alpha Legion

+ HQ +

Sorcerer [6 PL, 98pts]: Bolt pistol, Death Hex, Force stave, No Chaos Mark, Warptime

+ Elites +

Helbrute [6 PL, 120pts]: Mark of Slaanesh, Missile launcher, Twin lascannon

Helbrute [6 PL, 120pts]: Mark of Slaanesh, Missile launcher, Twin lascannon

Helbrute [6 PL, 120pts]: Mark of Slaanesh, Missile launcher, Twin lascannon

++ Total: [104 PL, 11CP, 1,989pts] ++

Created with BattleScribe


Thoughts? am I on the right track? have I outfitted things terribly?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/07/27 03:40:51


 
   
Made in de
Nihilistic Necron Lord






Germany

Well, defilers dont benefit from the alpha legion trait, -1 to get hit. They also dont benefit from +1 to hit from the disco lords, because its not the same legion. I would remove the spearhead and move the defilers to the battalion, and add a third defiler. A master of possession with cursed earth can give all your daemon engines within 6" +1 to inv. and use sacrifice to heal them. Upgrade your aspiring champions with chainaxes and SB, its worth 3 pts. You should have some meatshield to protect your helbrutes from deepstrikers, add more CSM. Prescience on a sorcerer wouldnt be a bad idea to give helbrutes or defilers +1 to hit.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/07/27 06:22:51


 
   
Made in gb
Dakka Veteran





Yeah defilers are great but the models are just tragic I think. I really love all the newer Chaos models though! I am so picky haha I want an Alpha legion army with only the new models. It's a slow grow anyway.
   
Made in us
Been Around the Block




 p5freak wrote:
Well, defilers dont benefit from the alpha legion trait, -1 to get hit. They also dont benefit from +1 to hit from the disco lords, because its not the same legion. I would remove the spearhead and move the defilers to the battalion, and add a third defiler. A master of possession with cursed earth can give all your daemon engines within 6" +1 to inv. and use sacrifice to heal them. Upgrade your aspiring champions with chainaxes and SB, its worth 3 pts. You should have some meatshield to protect your helbrutes from deepstrikers, add more CSM. Prescience on a sorcerer wouldnt be a bad idea to give helbrutes or defilers +1 to hit.


questions SB? what's that, can't be a storm bolter... won't the master of possession not be able to keep up with the vehicles? Also, would I drop a lord discordant for him? or do I need to restructure further.
   
Made in de
Nihilistic Necron Lord






Germany

Sorry, i meant combi bolter, which is the same rules wise. You drop the obliterators. You already have enough heavy weapons. The MoP would need to advance to keep up with the daemon engines, which doesnt really matter, he has no important guns, and you dont want to charge with him.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Not Online!!! wrote:

That would however require the venomcrawler be actually good (or most other daemon engines).

And the venomcrawler is meh at best.
(also 6 pts more and you get a defiler which does everything the venomcrawler does but better.)


Venomcrawlers may not be as good as defilers, but they are far from meh.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/07/27 07:29:02


 
   
Made in ch
The Dread Evil Lord Varlak





 p5freak wrote:
Sorry, i meant combi bolter, which is the same rules wise. You drop the obliterators. You already have enough heavy weapons. The MoP would need to advance to keep up with the daemon engines, which doesnt really matter, he has no important guns, and you dont want to charge with him.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Not Online!!! wrote:

That would however require the venomcrawler be actually good (or most other daemon engines).

And the venomcrawler is meh at best.
(also 6 pts more and you get a defiler which does everything the venomcrawler does but better.)


Venomcrawlers may not be as good as defilers, but they are far from meh.


How often do you see daemon engines?
Which daemon engine beyond the LoD sees actual play at higher levels?

i rest my case.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page
A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units."
Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?"
Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?"
GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!"
Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.  
   
Made in us
Been Around the Block




xenoterracide wrote:
 p5freak wrote:
Well, defilers dont benefit from the alpha legion trait, -1 to get hit. They also dont benefit from +1 to hit from the disco lords, because its not the same legion. I would remove the spearhead and move the defilers to the battalion, and add a third defiler. A master of possession with cursed earth can give all your daemon engines within 6" +1 to inv. and use sacrifice to heal them. Upgrade your aspiring champions with chainaxes and SB, its worth 3 pts. You should have some meatshield to protect your helbrutes from deepstrikers, add more CSM. Prescience on a sorcerer wouldnt be a bad idea to give helbrutes or defilers +1 to hit.


questions SB? what's that, can't be a storm bolter... won't the master of possession not be able to keep up with the vehicles? Also, would I drop a lord discordant for him? or do I need to restructure further.


ok, I've updated the list per your suggestions.

Spoiler:


++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Chaos - Chaos Space Marines) [78 PL, 10CP, 1,414pts] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

Battle-forged CP [3CP]

Detachment CP [5CP]

Gametype: Matched

Legion [3CP]: Red Corsairs

Specialist Detachment [-1CP]: Soulforged Pack

+ HQ +

Lord Discordant on Helstalker [9 PL, 180pts]: Baleflamer, No Chaos Mark
. Helstalker: Techno-virus injector

Lord Discordant on Helstalker [9 PL, 180pts]: Baleflamer, Intoxicating Elixir, Mark of Slaanesh, Reaver Lord Artefact
. Helstalker: Techno-virus injector

Lord Discordant on Helstalker [9 PL, 180pts]: Baleflamer, Mark of Khorne, Mecha-serpents, Reaver Lord, Warlord
. Helstalker: Techno-virus injector

+ Troops +

Chaos Space Marines [8 PL, 133pts]: No Chaos Mark
. Aspiring Champion: Chainaxe, Combi-bolter
. 9x Marine w/ Boltgun

Chaos Space Marines [8 PL, 92pts]: No Chaos Mark
. Aspiring Champion: Chainaxe, Combi-bolter
. 4x Marine w/ Boltgun
. Marine w/ special weapon: Plasma gun

Chaos Space Marines [8 PL, 133pts]: No Chaos Mark
. Aspiring Champion: Chainaxe, Combi-bolter
. 9x Marine w/ Boltgun

+ Heavy Support +

Defiler [9 PL, 172pts]: Defiler scourge, No Chaos Mark, Twin lascannon

Defiler [9 PL, 172pts]: Defiler scourge, No Chaos Mark, Twin lascannon

Defiler [9 PL, 172pts]: Defiler scourge, No Chaos Mark, Twin lascannon

++ Vanguard Detachment +1CP (Chaos - Chaos Space Marines) [29 PL, 1CP, 556pts] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

Detachment CP [1CP]

Legion: Alpha Legion

+ HQ +

Master of Possession [5 PL, 98pts]: Cursed Earth, Force stave, Infernal Power, No Chaos Mark

Sorcerer [6 PL, 98pts]: Bolt pistol, Death Hex, Force stave, Mark of Slaanesh, Prescience

+ Elites +

Helbrute [6 PL, 120pts]: Mark of Slaanesh, Missile launcher, Twin lascannon

Helbrute [6 PL, 120pts]: Mark of Slaanesh, Missile launcher, Twin lascannon

Helbrute [6 PL, 120pts]: Mark of Slaanesh, Missile launcher, Twin lascannon

++ Total: [107 PL, 11CP, 1,970pts] ++

Created with BattleScribe
   
Made in gb
Pulsating Possessed Chaos Marine






Not Online!!! wrote:
 p5freak wrote:
Sorry, i meant combi bolter, which is the same rules wise. You drop the obliterators. You already have enough heavy weapons. The MoP would need to advance to keep up with the daemon engines, which doesnt really matter, he has no important guns, and you dont want to charge with him.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Not Online!!! wrote:

That would however require the venomcrawler be actually good (or most other daemon engines).

And the venomcrawler is meh at best.
(also 6 pts more and you get a defiler which does everything the venomcrawler does but better.)


Venomcrawlers may not be as good as defilers, but they are far from meh.


How often do you see daemon engines?
Which daemon engine beyond the LoD sees actual play at higher levels?

i rest my case.


Don Hooson took 2 venomcrawlers to the LA GT and came 3rd. I've also seen a few venomcrawlers in local tournaments. They are cheaper, more buffable, move further and have assault weapons olso hit on 3+ after moving unlike the defiler and can advance, shoot and charge with strat.

Definately would take 3 LDs before my 1st venomcrawler but they're definitely not useless.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/07/27 08:13:23


 
   
Made in ch
The Dread Evil Lord Varlak





 small_gods wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:
 p5freak wrote:
Sorry, i meant combi bolter, which is the same rules wise. You drop the obliterators. You already have enough heavy weapons. The MoP would need to advance to keep up with the daemon engines, which doesnt really matter, he has no important guns, and you dont want to charge with him.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Not Online!!! wrote:

That would however require the venomcrawler be actually good (or most other daemon engines).

And the venomcrawler is meh at best.
(also 6 pts more and you get a defiler which does everything the venomcrawler does but better.)


Venomcrawlers may not be as good as defilers, but they are far from meh.


How often do you see daemon engines?
Which daemon engine beyond the LoD sees actual play at higher levels?

i rest my case.


Don Hooson took 2 venomcrawlers to the LA GT and came 3rd. I've also seen a few venomcrawlers in local tournaments. They are cheaper, more buffable, move further and have assault weapons olso hit on 3+ after moving unlike the defiler and can advance, shoot and charge with strat.

Definately would take 3 LDs before my 1st venomcrawler but they're definitely not useless.


How is a Venomcrawler hitting at 3+? With a lord discordant at his side only.

I do belive that the maulerfiend did get outclassed by the utility and (especially) because of the pricetag (btw can someone explain to me why magmameltas the mauler gets are that expensive?) but the defiler is just as nice a target to be babysitted by a Lord discordant.

Anyways i got a concept idea i wanted to try out:


Spoiler:
The whole list is run as Alpha legion. Marines and Cultists are marked as Slaanesh,except the 20 man blob for melee that is khorne)


Battalion:
Chained: Staff 98 pts
Lord Combi plas, Chainsword 85 pts
Sorcerer Psi sword 98 pts.
Troops:
5 CSM missile launcher 85 pts
5 CSM missile launcher 85 pts
5 CSM Autocannon, CB Chainaxe 78 pts
20 Cultists Autopistol, brutal Assault weapons. 100 pts.

Elite Detachment:
Lord Combibolter, Energysword 80 pts.
Elites:
5 Chosen, 3 CB, 1 Reaper chaincannon 1 Plasmagun 107 pts.
1 Greater Possesed 70 pts.
1 Greater Possesed 70 pts.

Heavy Support Battalion
Sorcerer Staff 98 pts.
Heavy Support:
Venomcrawler 130 pts.
1 Obliterator 115 pts
1 obliterator 115 pts.

Total 1414pts. So far. . (see blog for what allready exists)


Suggestion: Second -Battalion:
3 x Lord Discordant: 480 pts.
2x 10 cultists with Autoguns 100 pts

(the 20 man squad get's moved in here, also the Elite detachment get's consolidated)

the Three sorcerers are basically equipped with Warp time, Death hex, the 5+++ power i also always forget the name off, well the usual suspects.)

I am Alpharius is the warlord trait,(for obvious reasons) i'd imagine a soulforged detachment for the Second suggested battalion with the moved in Venomcrawler and oblits

I am mostly concerned about the second suggested battalion and overall thoughts on the list


https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page
A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units."
Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?"
Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?"
GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!"
Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.  
   
Made in us
Daemonic Dreadnought





Eye of Terror

xenoterracide wrote:
xenoterracide wrote:
 p5freak wrote:
Well, defilers dont benefit from the alpha legion trait, -1 to get hit. They also dont benefit from +1 to hit from the disco lords, because its not the same legion. I would remove the spearhead and move the defilers to the battalion, and add a third defiler. A master of possession with cursed earth can give all your daemon engines within 6" +1 to inv. and use sacrifice to heal them. Upgrade your aspiring champions with chainaxes and SB, its worth 3 pts. You should have some meatshield to protect your helbrutes from deepstrikers, add more CSM. Prescience on a sorcerer wouldnt be a bad idea to give helbrutes or defilers +1 to hit.


questions SB? what's that, can't be a storm bolter... won't the master of possession not be able to keep up with the vehicles? Also, would I drop a lord discordant for him? or do I need to restructure further.


ok, I've updated the list per your suggestions.

Spoiler:


++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Chaos - Chaos Space Marines) [78 PL, 10CP, 1,414pts] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

Battle-forged CP [3CP]

Detachment CP [5CP]

Gametype: Matched

Legion [3CP]: Red Corsairs

Specialist Detachment [-1CP]: Soulforged Pack

+ HQ +

Lord Discordant on Helstalker [9 PL, 180pts]: Baleflamer, No Chaos Mark
. Helstalker: Techno-virus injector

Lord Discordant on Helstalker [9 PL, 180pts]: Baleflamer, Intoxicating Elixir, Mark of Slaanesh, Reaver Lord Artefact
. Helstalker: Techno-virus injector

Lord Discordant on Helstalker [9 PL, 180pts]: Baleflamer, Mark of Khorne, Mecha-serpents, Reaver Lord, Warlord
. Helstalker: Techno-virus injector

+ Troops +

Chaos Space Marines [8 PL, 133pts]: No Chaos Mark
. Aspiring Champion: Chainaxe, Combi-bolter
. 9x Marine w/ Boltgun

Chaos Space Marines [8 PL, 92pts]: No Chaos Mark
. Aspiring Champion: Chainaxe, Combi-bolter
. 4x Marine w/ Boltgun
. Marine w/ special weapon: Plasma gun

Chaos Space Marines [8 PL, 133pts]: No Chaos Mark
. Aspiring Champion: Chainaxe, Combi-bolter
. 9x Marine w/ Boltgun

+ Heavy Support +

Defiler [9 PL, 172pts]: Defiler scourge, No Chaos Mark, Twin lascannon

Defiler [9 PL, 172pts]: Defiler scourge, No Chaos Mark, Twin lascannon

Defiler [9 PL, 172pts]: Defiler scourge, No Chaos Mark, Twin lascannon

++ Vanguard Detachment +1CP (Chaos - Chaos Space Marines) [29 PL, 1CP, 556pts] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

Detachment CP [1CP]

Legion: Alpha Legion

+ HQ +

Master of Possession [5 PL, 98pts]: Cursed Earth, Force stave, Infernal Power, No Chaos Mark

Sorcerer [6 PL, 98pts]: Bolt pistol, Death Hex, Force stave, Mark of Slaanesh, Prescience

+ Elites +

Helbrute [6 PL, 120pts]: Mark of Slaanesh, Missile launcher, Twin lascannon

Helbrute [6 PL, 120pts]: Mark of Slaanesh, Missile launcher, Twin lascannon

Helbrute [6 PL, 120pts]: Mark of Slaanesh, Missile launcher, Twin lascannon

++ Total: [107 PL, 11CP, 1,970pts] ++

Created with BattleScribe

Question: Isn't this list similar to the one you have been running? Big force running up the board, heavy weapons standing in the back?

There's still 5 HQs only now there's fewer guns, the Cultists have been replaced by Daemon Engines, and nothing gets to deep strike. This might be more of a sidegrade than an upgrade.

Here's what concerns me:

- Death Hex on the Sorcerer. Isn't he there to put Prescience on shooty units? Who's invul is he going to be erasing? Warptime might be more effective.

- The lascannons on the Defilers. The Defilers are BS 4 and will probably be moving the entire game. Weapons with more shots work better on these guys than ones with more damage. Heavy Flamers are sometimes the most effective option.

- CSMs without heavy weapons. Blasphemy! Those lascannons would do more in the hands of CSMs.

That said, the LDs and the Defilers are the main thrust of your offense. That's 78 wounds total on 6 models, each of which gets bracketed at 6 wounds. Think about what Mechanicum / Tau / Eldar / IG armies are going to do in the first turn...

The pattern I see is your lists are built around a grand offensive threat with significant vulnerabilities. Each list will work in some games but break against armies that specialize in what you're building around (infantry, vehicles, etc.) There are a lot of points going into HQs - which is not necessarily bad - but that comes at the cost of a more varied and balanced list.

Something to consider is the idea of a one-two punch. For each offensive threat, what's there to diminish your opponent's ability to respond? You don't want to be in situations where the obvious move is to bear down on your main offensive threat with an entire army.

Going back to your original list for a minute, the Havocs would be more resilient if they were part of an Alpha Legion detachment. Swap the autocannons for lascannons / missle launchers, add a Chaos Lord for rerolls on 1s, and now you have something that challenges the soulforged pack in terms of offensive ability. Your opponents will waste a lot of shots trying to take them out, plus they can move without penalty.

Getting rid of the Obliterators was an interesting decision, but ask yourself if 3 Defilers are actually going to outperform them offensively in a game. The fact they can deep strike and do a ton of damage means your opponent can't ignore them, the rest of your army gets a pass the turn they arrive.

The Lord Dischordants are characters with more than 10 wounds, there's no way to shield them with intervening models. Besides cc, they are really there to buff your Defilers. Do you actually need 3 of them? A Daemon Prince is about as good in cc but can't be shot until he's in the open. Do you really want 3 cc HQs that can get bracketed, or do you want something that's more likely to get there and can bring some psychic as well?

I like the way your lists are evolving but would really like to see something with more units and a more varied offense.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/07/27 11:29:58


   
Made in us
Huge Hierodule






Nottingham (yay!)

Rogerio134134 wrote:
Yeah defilers are great but the models are just tragic I think. I really love all the newer Chaos models though! I am so picky haha I want an Alpha legion army with only the new models. It's a slow grow anyway.

A Maulerfiend built with two fists, a hades autocannon, a set of tendrils (or melta cutter if heavy Flamer is your thing) and a Plasma maw with a tube extension on the gun is a pretty WYSIWYG way to make a devils that matches the more modern DE aesthetic

   
 
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