I've found great success with a havoc/Twin las set up. It's still relatively cheap at 166, and provides basically a little something for everything (battle cannons for mid-range, havocs for chaff, las for armor), and all at 48" meaning you can stay in the back field all game, not having to move if you start right.
vaklor4 wrote: I've found great success with a havoc/Twin las set up. It's still relatively cheap at 166, and provides basically a little something for everything (battle cannons for mid-range, havocs for chaff, las for armor), and all at 48" meaning you can stay in the back field all game, not having to move if you start right.
If you swim in cp, which you can, these dakka defilers make for quite decent at aswell as backfield sheriffs.
Btw am I the only one that would've prefered reaper autocannons instead of the chaincannon on havocs?
vaklor4 wrote: I think that'd be like asking for twin lascannons as well as lascannons for Havocs It's a bit redundant. Chaincannons are at least unique.
Reaper autocannon is also unique, would have given a dakka option aswell.
The rotor cannon just doesn't hit the heavy weapon Design style for Chaos, atleast for me.
But i recently got told that i am old. Soooooo. Grain of salt?
I'm thinking of equipping them with scourges and just run up (warptime) and crump.
In my list I'm likely to include 3 maulerfiends as well.
Daemonkin rushdown. With a Slaaneshi Daemon Character - Epitome or DP are great - or a Gnarlmaw, Soulforged WS allows them to advance, Warptime advance, pop smoke if it’s Slaanesh or shoot if it’s a Gnarlmaw, and then get stomping
Three maulerfiends sound like a fine addition to the band, advance rolls of 4+ give them a reasonable chance of a 24” T1 charge
I ran 2 the other day. Same thing happened, t1 one got nuked. But then the other one nuked the nuker (defiler with twin laz and battle cannon vs 2 vindicators. 2nd vindicator got 4 shots, 4 hits, 3 wounds, defiler failed all 3 saves, rolled a 6, a 3, and a 4 for dmg.... boom baby).
Yeah they are terrific. And deadly. People have a good reason to fear them.
vaklor4 wrote: I've found great success with a havoc/Twin las set up. It's still relatively cheap at 166, and provides basically a little something for everything (battle cannons for mid-range, havocs for chaff, las for armor), and all at 48" meaning you can stay in the back field all game, not having to move if you start right.
If you swim in cp, which you can, these dakka defilers make for quite decent at aswell as backfield sheriffs.
Btw am I the only one that would've prefered reaper autocannons instead of the chaincannon on havocs?
I don’t like the chain cannon havocs. The range is a real issue. I like the chain in CSM squads though.
Eldarain wrote: I got a bunch of Red Dog Minis rotor barrels for Heavy Bolter converting.
I was already after a few Ravenwing upgrade sprues, so just gonna use the Assault Cannon barrels. Ok, they'd not got the holey bean tins on the end but I think it should still work.
I modeled one from heavy bolter and new obliterator's shoulder gun's barrel which is the same as with real rotary cannon. Just gave the oblit another barrel. Just a quick tip.
Got a photo? (I think we can afford to indulge a brief threadjack into hobbycraft, availability of RCC is a logistic factor when forming Heretac/Havoc strategy )
Got a photo? (I think we can afford to indulge a brief threadjack into hobbycraft, availability of RCC is a logistic factor when forming Heretac/Havoc strategy )
Literally just got 2 of these in the post. Was aiming to put them on the heavy bolters. Would love a pic as well if you're willing.
Automatically Appended Next Post: From what I've seen of them so far, really good quality. Looks just like the RCC. Better than the pics on Ebay.
Eldarain wrote: I got a bunch of Red Dog Minis rotor barrels for Heavy Bolter converting.
I was already after a few Ravenwing upgrade sprues, so just gonna use the Assault Cannon barrels. Ok, they'd not got the holey bean tins on the end but I think it should still work.
They are quite a bit bigger as they are meant for Vehicles. Here's my proof of concept Chaincannon
Oh, yeah, that’s it. I’ve got loads of plastic heavy bolters from a HH binge. Was going to build RCCs out of tubes, but them’s going to take a weekend off the hobby bottleneck
Send me a PM I might be able to print these at a lower price and ship from the US if you want alot of them,
Automatically Appended Next Post: Are people still incorporating single knights in their list as a bit of a distraction?
picked up the apoc box for chaos. im interested in making a non daemon chaos list with cuttists, marines/havocs, bikes, terms and maybe a knight or two.
vaklor4 wrote: I've found great success with a havoc/Twin las set up. It's still relatively cheap at 166, and provides basically a little something for everything (battle cannons for mid-range, havocs for chaff, las for armor), and all at 48" meaning you can stay in the back field all game, not having to move if you start right.
If you swim in cp, which you can, these dakka defilers make for quite decent at aswell as backfield sheriffs.
Btw am I the only one that would've prefered reaper autocannons instead of the chaincannon on havocs?
I don’t like the chain cannon havocs. The range is a real issue. I like the chain in CSM squads though.
vaklor4 wrote: I've found great success with a havoc/Twin las set up. It's still relatively cheap at 166, and provides basically a little something for everything (battle cannons for mid-range, havocs for chaff, las for armor), and all at 48" meaning you can stay in the back field all game, not having to move if you start right.
If you swim in cp, which you can, these dakka defilers make for quite decent at aswell as backfield sheriffs.
Btw am I the only one that would've prefered reaper autocannons instead of the chaincannon on havocs?
I don’t like the chain cannon havocs. The range is a real issue. I like the chain in CSM squads though.
can you please explain your point? ty
I found that the 20 pts gun, especially losing it, sucks massiv, and havocs are allready not durable and forcing them to Expose themselves even more makes for a prime loss of 170 pts.
Otoh in chosen or csm you get 4 ablative wounds to remove before the expensive gun gets touched.
you need to play them in the right list but yes they aren't so durable, fact is in marine squad you have ablative wounds but you cant keep them hidden then move and shot with no malus like havocs do.
blackmage wrote: you need to play them in the right list but yes they aren't so durable, fact is in marine squad you have ablative wounds but you cant keep them hidden then move and shot with no malus like havocs do.
TBF, i hardly have tournament experience, and personally if you aren't playing against -1 to hit shenanigans you might aswell take the hit of moving and shooting, if it meanst that the gun is staying allive.
As for havocs. i doubt we will see much of them anymore due to the lack of ablative wounds and their W1 handicap.-
RCC Havocs can hide in a Rhino T1, put them in there with a minimum size Heretac squad and they’ll survive wreckage. They can deploy out of LOS and are robust to a lot of indirect fire weapons. On the first turn, they can do 2ed Overwatch, which with lascannons can be pretty intimidating. That said, yeah, losing ablative wounds is a massive issue for them and makes the weak Heretac unit something of an alternative - especially in an Abaddon castle.
Why hide them in a transport which can be shot T1 ? Put RCC havocs in a terrax pattern assault drill. Deepstrike, disembark, buff them with prescience and votlw, shoot away, repeat with endless cacophony.
Not Online!!! wrote: Delete 2 enemy units or destroy all screens he has for how many points?
I feel like this is a question that needed an answer... Havocs with chaincannons in a termite are good, but are they actually worth the points?
Prescience alone costs a sorcerer on top.
98pts on top of 170 for the chaincannon squad.
Then the Drill (No idea)
+3 cp which in the best case git generated by either RC 34..../CP or r&h, which would be 31/CP.
That's not a lump sum total and exposes an hq aswell as the havoc squad and the Drill.
The issue is, what are you using as the main push /Backup to exploit that gap in the enemy line that will show up after this dakka Festival?
Also remember Reserve points.
Not Online!!! wrote: Delete 2 enemy units or destroy all screens he has for how many points?
I feel like this is a question that needed an answer... Havocs with chaincannons in a termite are good, but are they actually worth the points?
They still can't come in till turn 2 right? It just seems silly for a unit that is intended to delete screens as you can get bubbled out by chaffe and potentially not be able to shoot juicy units... I understand the havocs are intended to kill low cost units (i.e. 'chaffe') but i'm referencing scout squads, nurglings, 10 man groups of cultists etc. Shooting these things is overkill and gives a large bubble where havocs won't be able to shoot.
I guess most people who are running this competitively are running with 2x deredeos?
Not Online!!! wrote: Delete 2 enemy units or destroy all screens he has for how many points?
I feel like this is a question that needed an answer... Havocs with chaincannons in a termite are good, but are they actually worth the points?
They still can't come in till turn 2 right? It just seems silly for a unit that is intended to delete screens as you can get bubbled out by chaffe and potentially not be able to shoot juicy units... I understand the havocs are intended to kill low cost units (i.e. 'chaffe') but i'm referencing scout squads, nurglings, 10 man groups of cultists etc. Shooting these things is overkill and gives a large bubble where havocs won't be able to shoot.
I guess most people who are running this competitively are running with 2x deredeos?
Well marines can now show up T1 But gsc and the rest got fethed there.
F
Can alpha legion reliably shut down all the turn 1 alpha drops marines have now? I figure you could scout move cultists and shut down most of the drop pod stuff but I think the new dreadsuit thing shuts that down too.
I'm about to start a league and there's a Raven guard planning on running 2 of the damn things at 500pts and I have no idea how you stop that at that point level.
Dr.Duck wrote: Drills are only 130. I feel like thats kind of a steal for a deepstriking dreadnaught transport.
Drills DS and 2 CC havocs pop out to pretty much disolve anything then charge in with the drill. 6 4+ S14 -4 3D attacks is no joke.
its almost 500 points for the set up but man thats alot of damage. Can it still only come in T2? been away for a while I dont know whats changed.
Terrax pattern assault drill is 134 with twin SB. RCC havocs are 150 (boltgun and chainsword for the champion), sorcerer is 98, chaos lord is 74. Sorcerer and lord are optional. Base cost is 284 pts. for hitting on 3s. The full package is 456, hitting on 2s, re-rolling 1s. And yes, it can only come in T2.
I'm about to start a league and there's a Raven guard planning on running 2 of the damn things at 500pts and I have no idea how you stop that at that point level.
Brimstone horrors are 90 pts. for 30 models. You can take them in an aux support detachment for -1CP.
Terrax pattern assault drill is 134 with twin SB. RCC havocs are 150 (boltgun and chainsword for the champion), sorcerer is 98, chaos lord is 74. Sorcerer and lord are optional. Base cost is 284 pts. for hitting on 3s. The full package is 456, hitting on 2s, re-rolling 1s. And yes, it can only come in T2.
I feel like a big unit of bikers is just a better option all round, far tougher, more shots and definately getting shots off turn 1. 9 bikes and combi bolter on champion is 209 points.
40 shots and 18 wounds rather than 32 shots and 5 wounds. They can take all the same buffs and because of bolter disciple shoot at 24" too.
I feel like a big unit of bikers is just a better option all round, far tougher, more shots and definately getting shots off turn 1. 9 bikes and combi bolter on champion is 209 points.
40 shots and 18 wounds rather than 32 shots and 5 wounds. They can take all the same buffs and because of bolter disciple shoot at 24" too.
What ?? How can 40 shots with S4 AP0 D1 do 18 wounds, and 32 shots with S5 AP-1 D1 only do 5 wounds ??
Invictus and pods are gonna be a problem. Alpha legion won't stop them due to their silly scout deployment invalidating fwd ops. We need an update a real one this time.
And the assault drill is just ok I've seen it played with chain reapers. Worse now I suspect with drop pod assault back in the game. I'd prefer a rhino.. from what we have available that is.
dominuschao wrote: Invictus and pods are gonna be a problem. Alpha legion won't stop them due to their silly scout deployment invalidating fwd ops. We need an update a real one this time.
And the assault drill is just ok I've seen it played with chain reapers. Worse now I suspect with drop pod assault back in the game. I'd prefer a rhino.. from what we have available that is.
That's what I thought. I knew the forward deployment trick wouldn't work. So other than taking a ton of cultists or something and just gumming them up I feel like your only strategy is "don't go second, and if you do pray they can't get everything important"
Which isn't exactly doable at 500pts. Only idea I've got is to cheese the gak out of them and hide all my models in building so he can't get to them. And even thats not exactly a guarantee depending on table.
We should probably keep an eye on the Forgeworld FAQs, if the various alt Loyalist drop pods get DPA then Dreadclaws and Kharybdis might get it as well
I appreciate they're bitey assault boats and cost a lot more than disable metal boxes, but worth bearing in mind if we don't pass under this radar
I'd test one if fw was generous enough to give us t1 ds back. In addition to dmc..
Invictus and pods though represent a huge problem, worse than they first seem. Concealed positions with redeployment strat is a bit too good on those walkers. And without our own counter deployment option from similar rules. Add pods which can deliver null zone and our army is placed into much more defensive position.
I guess there's always nurglings. I hate being forcd into choices I don't want though.
dominuschao wrote: I'd test one if fw was generous enough to give us t1 ds back. In addition to dmc..
Invictus and pods though represent a huge problem, worse than they first seem. Concealed positions with redeployment strat is a bit too good on those walkers. And without our own counter deployment option from similar rules. Add pods which can deliver null zone and our army is placed into much more defensive position.
I guess there's always nurglings. I hate being forcd into choices I don't want though.
Worth bearing in mind that, as Assault boats, our drop pods can deploy at the start and fly to the enemy
Kharybdis full of shock troops is a serious contender for Warptime and an endurance spell and/or prayer
This is quite a buy-in, but you can build the army with these units in mind. If you’re not doing pure Khorne, Hereticus is so good, it’s not so much a question of ‘this costs 100-odd points to add to my army’ as ‘which unit is the one I’m going to try to charge with in the first turn’. If you’re going to use a bunch of punchy Daemon Engines and Cultist screens, DA is a poundshop Abaddon
So I’m thinking of getting some more fun stuff for my army. I have seen so many list and gone through datasheets and gone through my army as well. What I’ve come to as a conclusion is that I need something that shoots either high strength or many shots.
Was thinking of a Contemptor Dreadnought for either a butcher cannon or long range c-beam, possibly soulburner and following my more melee oriented army.
A decimator Dreadnought as it is a Daemon and will be getting buffs from my Daemon detachment I always take.
Or a Scorpius hiding and double shooting maybe getting rerolls from a Lord. But then I feel like I need more shooting things that benefit from the Lord.
What are you guys/gals thinking about for shooting units? What do you use?
I managed to procure a DV model of Kranon the Relentless, and I don't want to actually run him as Kranon. I was thinking of running the model either as a Chaos Lord or a Sorcerer, but I'm not sure which would be better.
ArcaneHorror wrote: I managed to procure a DV model of Kranon the Relentless, and I don't want to actually run him as Kranon. I was thinking of running the model either as a Chaos Lord or a Sorcerer, but I'm not sure which would be better.
Are you wanting to conserve your OOP model as is, or is a weapon swap an option? Plasma pistols are in a weird place. Much rather take a combi-weapon or the free bolt gun/pistol. Combi-bolter’s good on either unit you’re looking at. Not a fan of combi-plasma on a Hero - it wants to be overcharged, and the bearer wants to be fairly disposable. Combi-melta and Flamer want a fast moving carrier.
Foot Chaos Lords and Sorcerers both have beneficial roles in a gunline. If you’ve got a bunch of slow, shorty units, either are good. Sorcerer’s better if you’ve got a few big units to buff, Lord’s buff being an aura makes him useful in MSU.
If you want to keep the model as is and use it as a hero, best role’s probably riding in a Berzerker party van. That way, the short range loadout won’t be wasted. (Exalted Champion is actually a pretty good match, as the mini itself or a tag team partner - the Power Sword becomes a better, cheaper lightning claw.)
ArcaneHorror wrote: I managed to procure a DV model of Kranon the Relentless, and I don't want to actually run him as Kranon. I was thinking of running the model either as a Chaos Lord or a Sorcerer, but I'm not sure which would be better.
Are you wanting to conserve your OOP model as is, or is a weapon swap an option? Plasma pistols are in a weird place. Much rather take a combi-weapon or the free bolt gun/pistol. Combi-bolter’s good on either unit you’re looking at. Not a fan of combi-plasma on a Hero - it wants to be overcharged, and the bearer wants to be fairly disposable. Combi-melta and Flamer want a fast moving carrier.
Foot Chaos Lords and Sorcerers both have beneficial roles in a gunline. If you’ve got a bunch of slow, shorty units, either are good. Sorcerer’s better if you’ve got a few big units to buff, Lord’s buff being an aura makes him useful in MSU.
If you want to keep the model as is and use it as a hero, best role’s probably riding in a Berzerker party van. That way, the short range loadout won’t be wasted. (Exalted Champion is actually a pretty good match, as the mini itself or a tag team partner - the Power Sword becomes a better, cheaper lightning claw.)
Well the model is already primed, but I could do it again easily if I wanted to do some conversions. Putting a combi-bolter in lieu of the plasma pistol is definitely an option. A funny thing about the Sorcerer is that just the other night, I saw this picture again and noticed that there is a Sorcerer in it that's very much modeled on the Kranon design:
https://1d4chan.org/images/d/d5/Black_crusade_by_yogh_art-d5bqzea.jpg
It inspired me to that that I could maybe in fact put him into a TS army as a Sorcerer or ES. Sorcerer would work best with the TS as I'm going to have a Hellforged Dreadnought, another ES, and maybe a Helbrute. That being said, my other CSM armies will rely heavily on infantry, so a Lord might be better for those. As to tag teaming, would an Exalted Champion of Khorne, with the WE tag, be a good partner to Kharn?
EC & Kharn are a brilliant duo to accompany WE zerks, only real problem is keeping their transport up and running! Nobody wants that cargo to arrive
If snipers aren’t an issue, I like to deploy my Zerk buffer characters between the two rhinos, so if I lose first turn they can run into the one that’s still alive
Automatically Appended Next Post: In fact, if you’re not riding a Spartan, they’re now the best team to ride with zerks, as Dark Apostles need to keep on the table and Abaddon won’t fit
If I did that I could actually have two Lords (I'm having a Korghos Khul model be a WE lord, with the flesh hound standing in for a flamer or combi-flamer). One of them could stay outside and be protected by cultists. Also, can DA be used with WE armies? I know that I could always put one in an allied battalion if not.
Yep, DA can be WE. They’re a potentially powerful source of hit modifiers - defensive and offensive - and invulns. Definitely worth taking if you’re going to spend a load of your points on a LoW.
Field tested my WE smashlord today. Did a great job - his invuln tanked a cheeky Oblit drop and his hammer cleared the midfield.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Anyone played much with a Typhon siege tank? Such a cool model. There’s a display one in WE colours that keeps drawing me in.
lindsay40k wrote: Yep, DA can be WE. They’re a potentially powerful source of hit modifiers - defensive and offensive - and invulns. Definitely worth taking if you’re going to spend a load of your points on a LoW.
Field tested my WE smashlord today. Did a great job - his invuln tanked a cheeky Oblit drop and his hammer cleared the midfield.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Anyone played much with a Typhon siege tank? Such a cool model. There’s a display one in WE colours that keeps drawing me in.
Typhon had the same issues as the smaller Vindicator, except it got no buff.
To my knowledge.
So it's pretty miserable. Sadly.
Altough it has a bigger range if stationary.
A Khornate Dark Apostle sounds pretty cool, even just fluff-wise. That would be one bloody-minded priest. I might go and get a model or do some wicked conversion of another model.
ArcaneHorror wrote: A Khornate Dark Apostle sounds pretty cool, even just fluff-wise. That would be one bloody-minded priest. I might go and get a model or do some wicked conversion of another model.
Made mine out of a master of executioner and bloodwarrior head-swap.
Because that is a khornate priest, he ain't running around without an axe.
ArcaneHorror wrote: A Khornate Dark Apostle sounds pretty cool, even just fluff-wise. That would be one bloody-minded priest. I might go and get a model or do some wicked conversion of another model.
Made mine out of a master of executioner and bloodwarrior head-swap.
Because that is a khornate priest, he ain't running around without an axe.
No, there is no point in giving a disco lord a mark of nurgle, and cast miasma of pestilence on him. Or giving him the mark of slaanesh, to be able to use the intoxicating elixir. Or let him charge after advancing, when a herald of slaanesh is nearby. Or give him mark of tzeentch to get S+1, when a herald of tzeentch is nearby. Or cast weaver of fates on him.
- LEGION Greater Possessed Strength buff
- Daemon of Khorne charge reroll aura, bonus attacks from Crimson Crown or Skull Altar
- Changeling FNP, Boon of Change
- Delightful Agonies, Hysterical Frenzy
- Virulent Blessing, Epidemius synergy, advance & charge first turn by starting next to Gnarlmaw
Automatically Appended Next Post: I’m absolutely going to be using mine in Daemonkin lists. Word Bearers detachment, Daemon detachment, monotheist Legion detachment.
Hope we get some perks for monotheist lists as GW tried to dissuade soup with carrots for mono-faction. Space Marines getting a purity perk, Chapters getting a purity perk - this is a no-brainer.
Sucks to be Ynnari, they seem to have *lost* their single-faction-list strengths shortly before crusade lists get disincentivised.
I’m using my Lord Discordant usual as Slaanesh for delightful Agonies 5+++ and then all standard. Using two of them and a sorcerer or Daemon prince. They are a great distraction for 320 points that needs to be dealt with but my army is more or less focused around my Daemons.
Tazberry wrote: I’m using my Lord Discordant usual as Slaanesh for delightful Agonies 5+++ and then all standard. Using two of them and a sorcerer or Daemon prince. They are a great distraction for 320 points that needs to be dealt with but my army is more or less focused around my Daemons.
Ayye slaanesh is nice, altough khorne pushes the Lord discrodant quite heavily aswell, altough only offensively.
Then you have “Daemon forge” for 1CP. Re roll all failed hit and wound rolls in the shooting/fighting phase.
Really good if not used on a Maulerfiend or defiler.
Do your opponent figure out that it’s most effective to kill venomcrawlers first or have you been lucky? It’s effectively as they explode on 5+. And wants to be in range of a Lord D.
Tazberry wrote: Then you have “Daemon forge” for 1CP. Re roll all failed hit and wound rolls in the shooting/fighting phase.
Really good if not used on a Maulerfiend or defiler.
Really not good if used on a disco lord because he hits on 2s, and wounds on 3+. This stratagem is much better on a model which hits and wounds on 3+ or 4+.
With the changes to Bolters, it seems like Rubric Marines aren’t a terrible objective camper
Probably best used in a list with lots of 2+W models drawing the fire of medium damage weapons
Soulreaper Cannon has a very similar niche to RCC and will struggle to outperform it against most targets. It’ll probably do more to 2+ save units in cover, but against that you really want something like Melta
Warpflamers feel pretty expensive for what they do
All Bolter unit in a ruin at the edge of the DZ seems modestly adequate as a robust ‘come and have a go’ unit, if you want a Tzeentch army and it something else is drawing D2+ fire
Speaking of zerkers, I reckon a world eater dark apostle warlord could be absolutely savage, stacking omen of potency with the black mace for 8 attacks on the charge, possibly throwing in a cheeky slaughterborn/chaos boon if you're hero hunting.
Furthermore, here's a World Eaters list I've been thinking of dusting off my old Zerkers for:
With the awesome overwatch that out loyalists counterparts are now putting out and the ammount of eldar flyers around I've been thinking of dusting off my 10 warp talons.
My question is which should I try out with the host raptorial?
World Eaters Mark of Khorne, with Herald w/ crimson crown
Alpha Legion Mark of Nurgle, with herald, w/ virulent blessing
Khorne can fight twice for 3 cp and will get more attacks, killing more 1 wound models (around 80 guardsmen fighting twice!!) But requires 5cp to get the best out of them (1 for relic, 3 for fury of khorne, 1 cp for host raptorial rerolls).
Mark of Nurgle are better at killing vehichles, 3 damage on 5+ to wound, 2 damage on 4 to wound. Doing 36 wounds to a knight!! But they need a WC 7 psychic power to go off to get the best out of them.
They are both similar at killing 2 wound models like primaris.
World Eaters, just cos a WC 7 power is a lot less reliable as a game plan. Really I kind of depends on the rest of your list
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh yeah I also wanna sound this out. I was playing with a flawless host daemonkin list the other day against knights, and no word of a lie my ultimate confidence daemon prince one shot 4 knights, one after another.
The winged prince had 2x talons, the intoxicating elixir and ultimate confidence. They'd cast diabolic strength on themselves for a total of ten attacks w/ hateful assault, and a nearby sorcerer managed to cast both prescience and delightful agonies on them.
Granted I was rolling hot with 5 5+ to hits in my first roll, but the extra 20 attacks was just horrific. Has anybody tried this before? I've heard similar stuff with the disco lord, but he can get picked out pretty easy.
WinterLantern wrote: World Eaters, just cos a WC 7 power is a lot less reliable as a game plan. Really I kind of depends on the rest of your list
It's 3 MoS oblitorators in a devastation battery, 9 chaos bikers, 15 csm, 60 plaguebearers and either 20 bloodletters or a large unit of nurglings. Depending on if I need the nurgle aura or not.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Yeah FH DP is amazing, LD does it better but like you said, is usually first to get shot off the board and can't attack flyers.
small_gods wrote: With the awesome overwatch that out loyalists counterparts are now putting out and the ammount of eldar flyers around I've been thinking of dusting off my 10 warp talons.
My question is which should I try out with the host raptorial?
World Eaters Mark of Khorne, with Herald w/ crimson crown
Alpha Legion Mark of Nurgle, with herald, w/ virulent blessing
Khorne can fight twice for 3 cp and will get more attacks, killing more 1 wound models (around 80 guardsmen fighting twice!!) But requires 5cp to get the best out of them (1 for relic, 3 for fury of khorne, 1 cp for host raptorial rerolls).
Mark of Nurgle are better at killing vehichles, 3 damage on 5+ to wound, 2 damage on 4 to wound. Doing 36 wounds to a knight!! But they need a WC 7 psychic power to go off to get the best out of them.
They are both similar at killing 2 wound models like primaris.
So which do you like the look of best?
Khorne every time, preferably World Eaters. +2” charge is still not a sure thing, the Herald’s CC has nice synergy but it’s the reroll failed charges that’s important. You do not want to be stranded with a double low roll. I’d recommend splitting your ten, as well - redundancy is good, and being able to jump into the front line and also send a unit backwards to hug some enemy Obliterators or worse is very nice to have.
Forget spending 3CP to give them more attacks. They die as quickly as Heretacs, so if half your strikes are in escrow until after their opponents have swung back you’re going to find half of them have been clubbed to death. Have them support a brutal assault unit - Berzerkers, Bletters, etc - and prevent the Overwatch.
Be careful of Ultramarines. They can do supporting Overwatch like T’au now.
If you have a bucket of them or are doing a theme, there’s a niche list where that Herald with a Crimson Crown jumps onto a Skull Altar and gives units of ten WEWT 50A when they charge. (Not worth it IMO)
Just got back from a battle. Wanted to talk briefly about Obliterators and power creep in the current meta.
This game was a rematch against a triple Replusor list I'd faced a few weeks ago. Lost half my army turn 2 to those 3 tanks.
So I brought a hard counter list consisting of an MoP, Dark Apostle, 1 large Cultist Squad, 3x 5 CSMs with Chaincannons & Rhinos, Deredeo with Butcher Cannons and 3 x 3 Obliterators. I really just wanted to kill the tanks.
The Repulsors lined up exactly the way the did in the first game, destroyed the Cultists and all 3 Rhinos and about half the CSMs by turn 2. The Obliterators arrived and destroyed all 3 Repulsors in a single turn, then tabled him by turn 4.
Leaving the store, was thinking the only thing different about tonight was I got the jump on him with the Obliterators. There really wasn't any skill involved, both of us had units capable of pouring out damage. Once his big bad shooty things were off the table, there was nothing to stand up to mine.
I thought 8th edition was about getting past these kinds of games. Massed Obliterators are a very attractive option but where is the enjoyment of an easy button?
Tazberry wrote: Then you have “Daemon forge” for 1CP. Re roll all failed hit and wound rolls in the shooting/fighting phase.
Really good if not used on a Maulerfiend or defiler.
Really not good if used on a disco lord because he hits on 2s, and wounds on 3+. This stratagem is much better on a model which hits and wounds on 3+ or 4+.
Tell that to my Discolord when he failed to kill the Swarmlord in CC after I forgot to put Daemonforge on him and failed some crucial hit and wound rolls Also, the mount attacks are S7 so usually wound on a 4+ or even 5+ when attacking monsters and vehicles.
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Eldarain wrote: The constant escalation of damage output is really exposing the core flaw of IgoUgo at the scale of game this has bloated to.
True that. It's also one of the reasons I typically don't play 2000 points, it just feels like Apocalypse by now.
techsoldaten wrote: Just got back from a battle. Wanted to talk briefly about Obliterators and power creep in the current meta.
This game was a rematch against a triple Replusor list I'd faced a few weeks ago. Lost half my army turn 2 to those 3 tanks.
So I brought a hard counter list consisting of an MoP, Dark Apostle, 1 large Cultist Squad, 3x 5 CSMs with Chaincannons & Rhinos, Deredeo with Butcher Cannons and 3 x 3 Obliterators. I really just wanted to kill the tanks.
The Repulsors lined up exactly the way the did in the first game, destroyed the Cultists and all 3 Rhinos and about half the CSMs by turn 2. The Obliterators arrived and destroyed all 3 Repulsors in a single turn, then tabled him by turn 4.
Leaving the store, was thinking the only thing different about tonight was I got the jump on him with the Obliterators. There really wasn't any skill involved, both of us had units capable of pouring out damage. Once his big bad shooty things were off the table, there was nothing to stand up to mine.
I thought 8th edition was about getting past these kinds of games. Massed Obliterators are a very attractive option but where is the enjoyment of an easy button?
Well I think half of the problem is that you brought a hard counter list. Oblits are potent and have one fairly guaranteed round of shooting. If you had turned up and your friend had brought 100 guardsmen and a load of artillery you'd be in for a bad time because you'd be out of range after the deepstrike and then dead.
The other problem is that both oblits and repulsors are glass cannons. Neither is tough for their points and both hit like a ton of bricks. If half of your list was nurgle daemons and half of his deathwatch. Then you would have had a different game.
small_gods wrote: Well I think half of the problem is that you brought a hard counter list. Oblits are potent and have one fairly guaranteed round of shooting. If you had turned up and your friend had brought 100 guardsmen and a load of artillery you'd be in for a bad time because you'd be out of range after the deepstrike and then dead.
That's not exactly the point. Last game, my list was well balanced and it was eaten up.
I'm saying the meta is backsliding. Used to be you couldn't do this with 8th edition armies.
small_gods wrote: The other problem is that both oblits and repulsors are glass cannons. Neither is tough for their points and both hit like a ton of bricks. If half of your list was nurgle daemons and half of his deathwatch. Then you would have had a different game.
small_gods wrote: Well I think half of the problem is that you brought a hard counter list. Oblits are potent and have one fairly guaranteed round of shooting. If you had turned up and your friend had brought 100 guardsmen and a load of artillery you'd be in for a bad time because you'd be out of range after the deepstrike and then dead.
That's not exactly the point. Last game, my list was well balanced and it was eaten up.
I'm saying the meta is backsliding. Used to be you couldn't do this with 8th edition armies.
small_gods wrote: The other problem is that both oblits and repulsors are glass cannons. Neither is tough for their points and both hit like a ton of bricks. If half of your list was nurgle daemons and half of his deathwatch. Then you would have had a different game.
"Repulsors are glass cannons" - nah.
3 of them on the board is very hard to deal with.
What you actually mean, skew lists have a chance of ruining the games for balanced lists, leading to more Anti-skewlists in the meta, which leads to a wargame devolving into rock paper scissors (and shotgun thanks to GW for the broken units)
small_gods wrote: Well I think half of the problem is that you brought a hard counter list. Oblits are potent and have one fairly guaranteed round of shooting. If you had turned up and your friend had brought 100 guardsmen and a load of artillery you'd be in for a bad time because you'd be out of range after the deepstrike and then dead.
That's not exactly the point. Last game, my list was well balanced and it was eaten up.
I'm saying the meta is backsliding. Used to be you couldn't do this with 8th edition armies.
small_gods wrote: The other problem is that both oblits and repulsors are glass cannons. Neither is tough for their points and both hit like a ton of bricks. If half of your list was nurgle daemons and half of his deathwatch. Then you would have had a different game.
"Repulsors are glass cannons" - nah.
3 of them on the board is very hard to deal with.
Repulsors are glass cannons though. Just 3 squads of havocks with lascannons and a lord will kill 2 straight off the bat. You can even hide behind terrain and move and shoot if you get second turn. That's around 500 points killing 630 points.
There are more people building skew lists around glass cannon units because it feels like you're really winning when you table someone on t3. But iy relys not running into a list like 9 oblits or 120 plaguebearers etc.
small_gods wrote: Repulsors are glass cannons though. Just 3 squads of havocks with lascannons and a lord will kill 2 straight off the bat. You can even hide behind terrain and move and shoot if you get second turn. That's around 500 points killing 630 points.
There are more people building skew lists around glass cannon units because it feels like you're really winning when you table someone on t3. But iy relys not running into a list like 9 oblits or 120 plaguebearers etc.
Then I have no clue what you mean when you say glass cannon. I took it to mean a fragile unit with a powerful alpha strike.
T8 W16 Sv3 with enemy shooting and charge distance modifiers is very respectable.
If your gauge for the word is "what happens when you shoot them with 12 lascannons and a Chaos Lord," then sure, they're fragile like a Knight Castellan.
small_gods wrote: Repulsors are glass cannons though. Just 3 squads of havocks with lascannons and a lord will kill 2 straight off the bat. You can even hide behind terrain and move and shoot if you get second turn. That's around 500 points killing 630 points.
There are more people building skew lists around glass cannon units because it feels like you're really winning when you table someone on t3. But iy relys not running into a list like 9 oblits or 120 plaguebearers etc.
Then I have no clue what you mean when you say glass cannon. I took it to mean a fragile unit with a powerful alpha strike.
T8 W16 Sv3 with enemy shooting and charge distance modifiers is very respectable.
If your gauge for the word is "what happens when you shoot them with 12 lascannons and a Chaos Lord," then sure, they're fragile like a Knight Castellan.
What modifers to shooting? You mean raven guard?
Also they are fragile for their points. For 945 points you could have 6 leman russes, 7 plagueburst crawlers, 2.5 gallants or 6.5 doomsday arks. All of which are much more survivable but put out much less damage. Hence glass cannon.
That's not to say I don't think they're undercosted. But that's GWs marketing strategy for new units, underpoint them for a year by 10-20% so people buy them. Then hit them with CA points increases.
Anyone know how much they shot, ap and damage? I’ve never had the pleasure of running into one yet, but I think one at the club is making a new marine list with one or two.
Tazberry wrote: Anyone know how much they shot, ap and damage? I’ve never had the pleasure of running into one yet, but I think one at the club is making a new marine list with one or two.
They have a main turrets which fires 4 super lascannon shots, str 10, ap-4, 3-6 dmg, 18 heavy bolter shots and a whole bunch for str 4 shots. A little bit of everything!
Let's not forget they shoot twice with the main gun when they move less than half the full distance.
In a previous game, each tank was putting out more than 40 shots a turn. They created a kill zone in the middle of the table, wiped out a ton of my stuff.
My Word Bearers had a ruck with Space Wolves today
ITC rules, Champions scenario where you get a central objective and one in each DZ. Front-line Assault deployment.
We had
Spoiler:
Chaos Lord (Armourbane), Exalted Champion, DA (VoL, CC), Sorcerer (Prescience, Warptime); 3x5 Heretacs (usually go with Cultists but I wanted to run an all-Marines list); 8 Zerks with PF, 10 NMs with Blastmasters & Lightning Claw, 5 Terminators with plasma, HF, Icon of Wrath; 5 Raptors with triple Melta; Autocannon Havocs, ML Havocs, LR Proteus with Heavy Flamers; Rhino with Havoc.
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Sniper Phobos Lord (+1 damage shooting trait), Primaris Rune Priest (cover aura spell, -1 to hit Malediction, armour of Russ), Bjorn, Gravis Lord; 2x5 Intercessors, 5 Infiltrators; Murderfang, Wulfen Shield Dread, Redemptor Dread with Lucius drop pod; Lascannons Long Fangs with Cyclone Shield Terminator, Heavy Plasma Long Fangs with Cyclone Shield Terminator, 5 Hellblasters
I let her deploy first. She put her Plasma Fangs in a tall central building, with Infiltrators below holding her objective nominated as Engineers. Las Fangs in a tall side building with sniper Lord, overlooking my objective, and with Intercessors on the ground to prevent ground floor deep strikes. Gravis Lord and Hellblasters (Engineers) outflanked. Redemptor In Drop Pod. Shield Dread and Intercessors led Bjorn and Murderfang with Rune Priest right up front in the middle. Missions were Engineers (2 units forfeit fighting to mine VP’s from Objectives), Behind Enemy Lines (have units Start & end their turn in enemy DZ), Marked for Death (kill LR, Havocs, Havocs, Zerks)
I put my objective in a corner behind a hilltop wall and nominated both Havocs squads as Engineers. Land Raider below, empty. Heretacs either side of the formation to anchor against outflanks. Chaos Lord able to be heard by all of them. Termies and Raptors in reserve. Zerks, NMs, Sorcerer and DA behind Heretac squad in a ruin at ground level, planning to jump out and grab a VP off the central objective in the first turn. Rhino deploys as an easy target for Lascannons. Missions were Engineers, Headhunters (kill characters), Marked for Death (the four dreads).
I let her have turn one; her Plasma Fangs have no targets, and I want to be the one moving onto Objectives last in a round, and I have a Devastation Battery. I cast -1 to be hit on the Land Raider (she later casts -1 to hit on it). Her Death Star of dreads marches on the centre. Only one Intercessor tagging the objective - if I roll 3+ to advance my Heretacs, I’ll grab the first end of round VP for it. Redemptor drops in right in front of my lines. A Punishing Volley of Krak Missiles deletes it. Yeah, new Havocs are pretty cool! Her Las Fangs and Cyclones don’t take the Rhino bait, using a strat to ignore hit modifiers and pound the Land Raider down to 4W. Sniper Lord fails to Wound Chaos Lord. Bjorn and the Shield Dread roll 12 & 11 for their charges, running through a gap in the ruin wall and ragdolling the Berzerkers and Heretacs and piling in to the Noise Marines. But! The Berzerker Champion and one of his squad lives. I throw 4CP at VotLW and Fury of Khorne. 12 Power Fist attacks wounding on 3+ with full rerolls punishes their impetuousity. Then none of them run to morale. WORD BEARERS TRAIT IS AWESOME
My first turn. Heretacs on either side of my objective scatter to block outflanks. Land Raider moves up towards drop Pod with Chaos Lord. Sorcerer fails to cast anything. Heavy weapons on Land Raider and Havocs focus on lascannons long Fangs; I want firepower supremacy, and rid of that sniper lord’s screen. Small arms target the drop Pod. Twin heavy Flamer gets two hits that fail to Wound. Noise Marine pistols troll Bjorn magnificently, then CCDA shows them how it’s done. Zerks go down fighting against Shield Dread, whilst Rhino drives into it. Land Raider, CL, and Heretacs charge the Drop Pod. Knock it down to 1W. YAY SHE CAN’T SHOOT AT THEM. I let her make a Shock Assault attack for it, hitting on a 6 due to SW trait
First round ends with me 3-4 ahead.
Her turn. DA fails to pray, because of course he does.
My knee-jerk rants about him getting a fail state on his ability and costing more for the privilege immediately feel vindicated. Hellblasters have no useful point of entry, so they stay in reserve. Gravis Lord turns up in a blind spot just outside the NM building. Murderfang, Intercessors, and Rune Priest move up to try to join the mosh pit. Long Fangs, clearly shaken, only manage to kill a Havoc Champion. Rune Priest does nothing. Gravis Lord successfully charges the Noise Marines with an 11. STOP THIS. Murderfang, Intercessors, and Rune Priest declare charges. They can only reach the Rhino that’s bothering Shield Dread. Gravis Lord stabs five Noise Marines. They get free shots with their Bolt Pistols, inflicting a Wound. Intercessors tip over the Rhino. It explodes. It inflicts 3W on all of her units in the mosh pit. It kills a Noise Marine. Who takes a free shot with his Bolt Pistol, wounding Gravis Lord again. Noise Marines make their attacks. The Champion’s Lightning Claw kills Gravis Lord. Rock and roll! Land Raider eats the Drop Pod.
My turn. Land Raider moves up to a position where it can see and reach the Sniper Lord (assuming Havocs clear the remaining Las Fangs); Chaos Lord can charge him if needs be, and Heretacs are blocking Hellblasters from getting a double tap on the LR. Terminators and Raptors drop on the Plasma Fangs, to waste them this turn (she’s not got the CP for her Rune Priest to let them get free shots) and kill her Engineer Infiltrators next turn. Noise Marines are now disengaged, with both Blastmasters and a Doom Siren intact, and a prescience caster next to them.
It’s not a tournament with accumulating VP tally, so opponent concedes.
Lessons I learned:
- stompy vehicle jamboree is hella risky, one of them goes bang and things could go south quickly. Nothing wrong with throwing a redundant transport in there to add another potential explosion
- Devastation Battery is formidable
- LR Proteus, with appropriate support, is now at the very least an interesting gimmick - nobody expects it to have heavy Flamers and a Power Sword
- Long Fangs are a hard counter to a lot of our endurance buffs and must be taken seriously
- Spend at least 10% of your army budget on anchoring your flanks
- Don’t forget your pistols
- If you can choose first turn, look carefully at the table and your mission and your opponent’s list
- LR Proteus, with appropriate support, is now at the very least an interesting gimmick - nobody expects it to have heavy Flamers and a Power Sword
Why the Proteus? I am not sure where the gimmick comes in, unless something has changed recently that I'm unaware of. Without an invulnerable save or POTMS it seems pretty bad even for a land raider.
The Achilles at least gets an invulnerable, but then it's Spartan points. And the spartan has POTMS and steel behemoth.
- LR Proteus, with appropriate support, is now at the very least an interesting gimmick - nobody expects it to have heavy Flamers and a Power Sword
Why the Proteus? I am not sure where the gimmick comes in, unless something has changed recently that I'm unaware of. Without an invulnerable save or POTMS it seems pretty bad even for a land raider.
The Achilles at least gets an invulnerable, but then it's Spartan points. And the spartan has POTMS and steel behemoth.
I spent a long time making a land Raider with all organic guns and I like setting things on fire
The gimmick is in warptiming it into the enemy’s face and daring them to charge it
dominuschao wrote: Loved the part where the champs threw down 12 pf attacks. I live for that type of gak honestly
As a mostly khornate that still has a Berzerker champion with bosspole rewarded to him because he bashed up singularily a c'tan, this is expected result.
Nothing can stand against a khornate berzerker champion that casts fist.
Any thoughts for CSMs on how to counter prophets of flesh Talos and grotesque spam? I just can't seem to put those units down if anyone has some good thoughts on the matter.
What is the current thoughts on the Sicaran? I never really see them mentioned, but the weapon/platform don't seem too bad. Lots of shots on the accellerator cannon and gets the bonus against fly while still being good against other units.
buddha wrote: Any thoughts for CSMs on how to counter prophets of flesh Talos and grotesque spam? I just can't seem to put those units down if anyone has some good thoughts on the matter.
I hate the Talos, it's just abysmal to play against. A regular opponent has gotten very good using them to defend against Bloodletter Bombs.
My strategy against them is cheap cc units. Tie them up with Cultists or smack them down with Helbrutes and Lasher Tendrils. The point is to make sure they are not hitting more valuable units.
My backup strategy is mortal wounds. Black Legion Chainlords with Flames of Spite and Ghorivex's Teeth get 2 MW on each 6+ to wound. Use Prescience to increase your odds.
My other backup strategy is to move away. Talos get used like Heavy Infantry, there's usually a reason why they are where they are on the board. Just keeping your distance can pull them out of position.
Did anyone realize that a helbrute with a power scourge and hateful assault now has 9 attacks at S8 AP-2 D2, or 12 with two power scourges ? The helbrute has two melee weapons because GW some time ago ruled that every model is equipped with a basic melee weapon. Which means one additional attack, the helbrute has two melee weapons, plus one for hateful assault.
p5freak wrote: Did anyone realize that a helbrute with a power scourge and hateful assault now has 9 attacks at S8 AP-2 D2, or 12 with two power scourges ? The helbrute has two melee weapons because GW some time ago ruled that every model is equipped with a basic melee weapon. Which means one additional attack, the helbrute has two melee weapons, plus one for hateful assault.
Is this actually accurate? The two melee weapons thing?
So contemptors only need one fist to get a bonus attack, and so the second fist might as well always be a butcher cannon?
BRB Update 1.4
Page 183 – Choose Melee Weapon
Change the second sentence to read:
‘In addition to their other weapons, all models are
assumed to be equipped with a close combat weapon,
which has the following profile:’
Niiru wrote: What is the current thoughts on the Sicaran? I never really see them mentioned, but the weapon/platform don't seem too bad. Lots of shots on the accellerator cannon and gets the bonus against fly while still being good against other units.
It looks ok but it's not worth taking atm.. Unless you know you'll face multiple flyers maybe. I've tried mine many times. High cost average save and no invuln makes it deceptively fragile. Second the AAC is just such an unreliable weapon. Wardogs are better simply due to 5++.
Niiru wrote: What is the current thoughts on the Sicaran? I never really see them mentioned, but the weapon/platform don't seem too bad. Lots of shots on the accellerator cannon and gets the bonus against fly while still being good against other units.
It looks ok but it's not worth taking atm.. Unless you know you'll face multiple flyers maybe. I've tried mine many times. High cost average save and no invuln makes it deceptively fragile. Second the AAC is just such an unreliable weapon. Wardogs are better simply due to 5++.
Wardogs? Don't think chaos gets those, unless I missed them in the book
buddha wrote: Any thoughts for CSMs on how to counter prophets of flesh Talos and grotesque spam? I just can't seem to put those units down if anyone has some good thoughts on the matter.
So from a competitive standpoint, ahriman and friends = death hex on grots -> 6+ save -> butcher cannons, lord discordant or pick your poison = many dead grots. You need to use the +2 to cast and ahriman to try to prevent the deny. Do this two turns and you have to deal with many less grots...
buddha wrote: Any thoughts for CSMs on how to counter prophets of flesh Talos and grotesque spam? I just can't seem to put those units down if anyone has some good thoughts on the matter.
So from a competitive standpoint, ahriman and friends = death hex on grots -> 6+ save -> butcher cannons, lord discordant or pick your poison = many dead grots. You need to use the +2 to cast and ahriman to try to prevent the deny. Do this two turns and you have to deal with many less grots...
p5freak wrote: Did anyone realize that a helbrute with a power scourge and hateful assault now has 9 attacks at S8 AP-2 D2, or 12 with two power scourges ? The helbrute has two melee weapons because GW some time ago ruled that every model is equipped with a basic melee weapon. Which means one additional attack, the helbrute has two melee weapons, plus one for hateful assault.
Is this actually accurate? The two melee weapons thing?
So contemptors only need one fist to get a bonus attack, and so the second fist might as well always be a butcher cannon?
Having 2 melee weapons doesn't automatically give you +1 attack in 8th, only previous editions.
Having 2 melee weapons doesn't automatically give you +1 attack in 8th, only previous editions.
Read the rules before trying to lecture others Helbrutes get +1 attack when they have two melee weapons.
I actually did, thanks, just the main book. The main rulebook originally says (paraphrased) "Unless the model already has a melee weapon, then it's equipped with one with the following stats", which the errata changed for zero reason.
While I want the additional attack for my contemptors it seems like an unintentional benefit. Is this generally accepted and how do larger events handle this?
dominuschao wrote: While I want the additional attack for my contemptors it seems like an unintentional benefit. Is this generally accepted and how do larger events handle this?
I'm also curious about this. It means for a small number of point more you can have a fist+butcher cannon contemptor, with all the benefits of a double-fist contemptor plus a better weapon.
Edit:
Also then - what is currently the best loadout for a contemptor? I would prefer not to run double guns, as that means it loses all melee ability, and I know it used to be double-soulburner fists but they're now very expensive. I was currently planning double-ectoplasma fists, unless there's a reason to go single-fist plus a butcher cannon or something.
The best is still probably double butchers. That said I enjoy running both of mine with butcher and fist and sometimes I add the plas. If the +1 attack is legit, which it seems it is, then I've received a huge buff. 6 attacks base first round of combat is respectable.
Double C Beam contemptors are also decent especially if you have hoardes of plaguebearers upfront. You can threaten both infantry and armour with them as long as they're at least 24" away.
I dont know why the rule was changed in the BRB. I dont think any tournament players noticed this, and its very likely not intended. A happy accident in favor of chaos. I didnt discover it, read about it on 1d4chan.
It is clearly an oversight, and the minute it gets past a TO and performs well it’ll get on the FAQ list
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p5freak wrote: I dont know why the rule was changed in the BRB. I dont think any tournament players noticed this, and its very likely not intended. A happy accident in favor of chaos. I didnt discover it, read about it on 1d4chan.
I had it come up in a game, pre-CCWs-all-round, that a Culexus assassin engaging a character with Power Fist or whatever is impossible to hit
lindsay40k wrote: It is clearly an oversight, and the minute it gets past a TO and performs well it’ll get on the FAQ list
You can pop smoke in the opponents shooting phase, 100% not intended, this didnt get on the FAQ list either.
Does this have any actual benefit?
Only thing I can think of is that you can choose not to pop smoke until the enemy shoots at your unit, and then react by popping smoke... but once they've declared shooting I don't think you can 'react' by popping smoke as they have already started shooting and get to finish before anything else can happen. The game doesn't have 'reaction' phases.
lindsay40k wrote: It is clearly an oversight, and the minute it gets past a TO and performs well it’ll get on the FAQ list
You can pop smoke in the opponents shooting phase, 100% not intended, this didnt get on the FAQ list either.
Does this have any actual benefit?
Only thing I can think of is that you can choose not to pop smoke until the enemy shoots at your unit, and then react by popping smoke... but once they've declared shooting I don't think you can 'react' by popping smoke as they have already started shooting and get to finish before anything else can happen. The game doesn't have 'reaction' phases.
What you described is the only benefit. And you can do it after your opponent declared what he is shooting at.
Besides the TS and WB, what CSM legion/warband has the best rules for summoning daemons? I'm thinking of building an Invocators army, and since daemon summoning is their thing, I was wondering who was best at it. I want to run them with Red Corsairs rules due to the CP advantage, but I don't want to have a daemon-unfriendly army.
ArcaneHorror wrote: Besides the TS and WB, what CSM legion/warband has the best rules for summoning daemons? I'm thinking of building an Invocators army, and since daemon summoning is their thing, I was wondering who was best at it. I want to run them with Red Corsairs rules due to the CP advantage, but I don't want to have a daemon-unfriendly army.
If you really want to go for it, Word Bearers have the fluff and a Stratagem for it. WB player myself and I have to warn you, they’ve a really weak Legion trait and Summoning is gimmicky at best.
Alpha Legion can infiltrate characters, which presents the option to summon from the midfield T1. On a 24” deployment, this can present alpha strikes with Pink Horrors and Flamers.
Master of Possession has a spell that casts a safe super summon. Budget a reroll, and it’s not impossible to advance forward and drop a GUO 9” away from the enemy on T1. Or a Soulgrinder. Or a mountain of Beasts of Nurgle. (Conga line them back to Horticulous and they get a charge re-roll.) Whilst this is an extraordinary way to launch slow super tough units, it is a huge gimmick that will frequently fail. Consider a Daemonkin WT on the MoP to improve chances of success. Even then, SoB and Black Templars and World Eaters and I think a certain Forge World are hard counters.
lindsay40k wrote: It is clearly an oversight, and the minute it gets past a TO and performs well it’ll get on the FAQ list
You can pop smoke in the opponents shooting phase, 100% not intended, this didnt get on the FAQ list either.
Lol this is absolute nonsense. You definitely cannot pop smoke in your opponent's shooting phase. Nothing allows you to select your Rhino to shoot so you cannot forgo shooting in order to pop smoke.
As for the CCW on Dreads, RAW probably it works but I've seen TOs rule against this so good luck to any who try it. It's definitely not RAI.
lindsay40k wrote: It is clearly an oversight, and the minute it gets past a TO and performs well it’ll get on the FAQ list
You can pop smoke in the opponents shooting phase, 100% not intended, this didnt get on the FAQ list either.
Lol this is absolute nonsense. You definitely cannot pop smoke in your opponent's shooting phase. Nothing allows you to select your Rhino to shoot so you cannot forgo shooting in order to pop smoke.
As for the CCW on Dreads, RAW probably it works but I've seen TOs rule against this so good luck to any who try it. It's definitely not RAI.
Interesting for TOs to rule against it. I can understand when they rule against interactions that are ambiguous, but the rules clearly were changed in order to make that interaction work. They're just making the rules up as they go at that point.
Which is fine, they're the TO they can do what they want I guess, just seems odd that they're interpreting solely on what they believe the intention is.
ArcaneHorror wrote: Besides the TS and WB, what CSM legion/warband has the best rules for summoning daemons? I'm thinking of building an Invocators army, and since daemon summoning is their thing, I was wondering who was best at it. I want to run them with Red Corsairs rules due to the CP advantage, but I don't want to have a daemon-unfriendly army.
If you really want to go for it, Word Bearers have the fluff and a Stratagem for it. WB player myself and I have to warn you, they’ve a really weak Legion trait and Summoning is gimmicky at best.
Alpha Legion can infiltrate characters, which presents the option to summon from the midfield T1. On a 24” deployment, this can present alpha strikes with Pink Horrors and Flamers.
Master of Possession has a spell that casts a safe super summon. Budget a reroll, and it’s not impossible to advance forward and drop a GUO 9” away from the enemy on T1. Or a Soulgrinder. Or a mountain of Beasts of Nurgle. (Conga line them back to Horticulous and they get a charge re-roll.) Whilst this is an extraordinary way to launch slow super tough units, it is a huge gimmick that will frequently fail. Consider a Daemonkin WT on the MoP to improve chances of success. Even then, SoB and Black Templars and World Eaters and I think a certain Forge World are hard counters.
Yeah, I'm not sure about having a WB army, as they have some of the weakest traits of all the CSM armies, though I could have a Word Bearers battalion, an Alpha Legion battalion with a Tzeentch mark, and a Red Corsairs battalion, or maybe just have one CSM battalion and two daemon ones to denote that they've already been summoned. I have been considering building an Alpha Legion army in and of itself, so I could maybe make an Invocators army with AL rules. I really wish that the Word Bearers had got better stuff.
I also wish that the Fallen could take marks of Chaos. Yes I know what they're origins are, but for those that truly did turn to Chaos, they should be able to take marks. An army formation that would be really wacky, at least lorewise, would be to have an army with Cypher as warlord and a small Fallen battalion, then have two other battalions filled to the brim with Khorne Berzerkers, DP's, and maybe even Kharn.
lindsay40k wrote: It is clearly an oversight, and the minute it gets past a TO and performs well it’ll get on the FAQ list
You can pop smoke in the opponents shooting phase, 100% not intended, this didnt get on the FAQ list either.
Lol this is absolute nonsense. You definitely cannot pop smoke in your opponent's shooting phase. Nothing allows you to select your Rhino to shoot so you cannot forgo shooting in order to pop smoke.
Read the rules and FAQs before claiming that its nonsense, because its not.
lindsay40k wrote: It is clearly an oversight, and the minute it gets past a TO and performs well it’ll get on the FAQ list
You can pop smoke in the opponents shooting phase, 100% not intended, this didnt get on the FAQ list either.
Lol this is absolute nonsense. You definitely cannot pop smoke in your opponent's shooting phase. Nothing allows you to select your Rhino to shoot so you cannot forgo shooting in order to pop smoke.
Read the rules and FAQs before claiming that its nonsense, because its not.
You could claim that you can use your smoke launchers in my turn but because there is no activation it would fall under the sequencing rules in the main rule book.
So yes you can but only after the player who's turn it is says you can and I'm guessing they'll want to shoot all their guns first!
Anybody tried any of the hellforged super heavys? Got a fellblade and a Cerberus I want to try out. Not at the same time of course. Yeah I know their not remotely points efficient but rule of cool and I think they'll be fun. Am I going to get tabled?
Gadzilla666 wrote: Anybody tried any of the hellforged super heavys? Got a fellblade and a Cerberus I want to try out. Not at the same time of course. Yeah I know their not remotely points efficient but rule of cool and I think they'll be fun. Am I going to get tabled?
I suggest asking your opponent to ignore the Forgeworld chapter approved point changes for them. They were already points inefficient in the index, but CA made 99% of big models basically trash.
Gadzilla666 wrote: Anybody tried any of the hellforged super heavys? Got a fellblade and a Cerberus I want to try out. Not at the same time of course. Yeah I know their not remotely points efficient but rule of cool and I think they'll be fun. Am I going to get tabled?
I suggest asking your opponent to ignore the Forgeworld chapter approved point changes for them. They were already points inefficient in the index, but CA made 99% of big models basically trash.
there is no reason in the meta for baneblades, allready, and the fellblade is worse baneblade.
Just get a knight with SPIKEZ because that is what gw wants.
Gadzilla666 wrote: Anybody tried any of the hellforged super heavys? Got a fellblade and a Cerberus I want to try out. Not at the same time of course. Yeah I know their not remotely points efficient but rule of cool and I think they'll be fun. Am I going to get tabled?
You would need a lot of other bodies with not many points left to try to make it work. You could run in a Black Legion supreme command with sorcerer, lord and dark apostle (council of traitors) to give it -2 to be hit (mark of nurgle).
Then you'd need a lot of plaguebearers or similar to clog up the board.
You could even use the purged rules instead so you can tie up in close combat and annihilate whatever you've pinned in there.
Gadzilla666 wrote: Anybody tried any of the hellforged super heavys? Got a fellblade and a Cerberus I want to try out. Not at the same time of course. Yeah I know their not remotely points efficient but rule of cool and I think they'll be fun. Am I going to get tabled?
You would need a lot of other bodies with not many points left to try to make it work. You could run in a Black Legion supreme command with sorcerer, lord and dark apostle (council of traitors) to give it -2 to be hit (mark of nurgle).
Then you'd need a lot of plaguebearers or similar to clog up the board.
You could even use the purged rules instead so you can tie up in close combat and annihilate whatever you've pinned in there.
Yeah I was planning on running a lord and sorceror for buffs. Wasn't planning on a lot of chaff. Was thinking of using the fellblade and a couple other scary units like dreadnoughts up front while deepstrikeing some units in the backline to split up focus. The points make it pretty hard to go below 2500. I like the supreme command detachment idea. Definitely worth a try.
Gadzilla666 wrote: Anybody tried any of the hellforged super heavys? Got a fellblade and a Cerberus I want to try out. Not at the same time of course. Yeah I know their not remotely points efficient but rule of cool and I think they'll be fun. Am I going to get tabled?
I suggest asking your opponent to ignore the Forgeworld chapter approved point changes for them. They were already points inefficient in the index, but CA made 99% of big models basically trash.
there is no reason in the meta for baneblades, allready, and the fellblade is worse baneblade.
Just get a knight with SPIKEZ because that is what gw wants.
I'm not very good at just doing what I'm supposed to. Anyway I've already got a spikey knight and I've actually came up with a few lists with it and one or both of the tanks in it. They won't win any tournament or maybe even any games but they'll be fun. And maybe gw will drop the cost next ca and they'll be better. Probably not but you never know. The Cerberus isn't nearly as overpriced anyway and is cheaper and better than the loyalist version.
lindsay40k wrote: It is clearly an oversight, and the minute it gets past a TO and performs well it’ll get on the FAQ list
You can pop smoke in the opponents shooting phase, 100% not intended, this didnt get on the FAQ list either.
Lol this is absolute nonsense. You definitely cannot pop smoke in your opponent's shooting phase. Nothing allows you to select your Rhino to shoot so you cannot forgo shooting in order to pop smoke.
Read the rules and FAQs before claiming that its nonsense, because its not.
It is nonsense and you are completely wrong. People in that thread explain why. You cannot activate your model in your enemy's shooting phase. You cannot shoot or forgo shooting without first activating your model. You cannot pop smoke in your opponent's shooting phase. This isn't a rules thread so I'm not interested in debating you but for other people reading this don't be mislead by this comment.
It is nonsense and you are completely wrong. People in that thread explain why. You cannot activate your model in your enemy's shooting phase. You cannot shoot or forgo shooting without first activating your model. You cannot pop smoke in your opponent's shooting phase. This isn't a rules thread so I'm not interested in debating you but for other people reading this don't be mislead by this comment.
Why are you debating me by saying it is nonsense, if you dont want to ?
Wait, don't smoke launchers say "instead of shooting". You can't shoot in your opponent's shooting phase .˙. no popping smoke in opponent's shooting phase.
Just read the thread i linked to in YMDC, its all explained there. Dont listen to some guy on the internet claiming its nonsense, because he doesnt like it, doesnt want it to be true. Read the rules and FAQs i provided, and make up your own opinion.
p5freak wrote: Just read the thread i linked to in YMDC, its all explained there. Dont listen to some guy on the internet claiming its nonsense, because he doesnt like it, doesnt want it to be true. Read the rules and FAQs i provided, and make up your own opinion.
You are continually ignoring the sequencing rules in the main rulebook. Which read:
'While playing Warhammer 40,000, you'll occasionally find that two or more rules are to be resolved at the same time........ When this happenes during the game, the player who's turn it is chooses the order'
Smoke launchers are used in the shooting phase. So even if you do concoct a RAW argument for using them in your opponents turn. He is able to shoot all his weapons before you are allowed to do it.
You can't just cherry pick the rules you like to make an argument for bending the rules. It's dumb.
It's not even that. Before you shoot you must select a unit to shoot with. You can only do this in your turn. You cannot select your Rhino to shoot in your opponent's turn, so you cannot select your Rhino to forgo shooting in your opponent's turn either. It's quite simple and if anyone is unclear on this all you need to do is read the steps of the shooting phase as described in the main rulebook. IF you could select your Rhino to shoot in your opponent's turn (eg if the Prescience strat worked on vehicles) THEN yes you would be able to pop smoke.
Because this is a tactics thread I'd like to move the topic of conversation back to tactics. What I want to know is how are people using Chaos Knights in their lists? I am thinking of adding a dual RFBC knight to add anti-tank and anti-flyer shooting which seems very efficient, but I want to know if there are any other good combos that might be working for you all.
saint_red wrote: It's not even that. Before you shoot you must select a unit to shoot with. You can only do this in your turn. You cannot select your Rhino to shoot in your opponent's turn, so you cannot select your Rhino to forgo shooting in your opponent's turn either. It's quite simple and if anyone is unclear on this all you need to do is read the steps of the shooting phase as described in the main rulebook. IF you could select your Rhino to shoot in your opponent's turn (eg if the Prescience strat worked on vehicles) THEN yes you would be able to pop smoke.
Wow, you are still debating this, despite saying you dont want to
Ive found double thermals are better for what you wanna do. MUCH MUCH cheaper and with the relic to ignore modifiers it can put some serious hurt on flyers.
I was thinking RFBC because it gives a bit more flexibility but I haven't properly thought about the thermals. Have you got any experience with them? My lists are almost always too light on anti-tank shooting tbf so dual thermals could be the way to go.
saint_red wrote: It's not even that. Before you shoot you must select a unit to shoot with. You can only do this in your turn. You cannot select your Rhino to shoot in your opponent's turn, so you cannot select your Rhino to forgo shooting in your opponent's turn either. It's quite simple and if anyone is unclear on this all you need to do is read the steps of the shooting phase as described in the main rulebook. IF you could select your Rhino to shoot in your opponent's turn (eg if the Prescience strat worked on vehicles) THEN yes you would be able to pop smoke.
Because this is a tactics thread I'd like to move the topic of conversation back to tactics. What I want to know is how are people using Chaos Knights in their lists? I am thinking of adding a dual RFBC knight to add anti-tank and anti-flyer shooting which seems very efficient, but I want to know if there are any other good combos that might be working for you all.
Agreed. I personally avoid practices like that. Not high enough impact to be worth the arguments.
On knights,double RFBC is appealing because you can deploy out of range potentially and just blast. The issue is how random they can be. 4d6 and d3d is really swingy.. and I use gaze of fate for 2 rerolls/turn.
At the moment I'm on infernal with AGC, thermal and stormspear. Theres argument for different builds but in my list the knight is primarily anti tank. The stormspear + thermal acts as a pseudo RFBC- better stats shorter range. The AGC is there for reliability and if I'm taking wardogs to gain access to S7 3d which is obviously fantastic.
One thing I've noted is how hard it is to dig anti tank units out of cover with a knight. And thats where the thermal comes in. Sounds odd but units like cents, las devs with ablatives and las fusil eliminators or similar are very resilient to most of a knights weaponry which otherwise caps at ap2.A thermal will dig these out easy where even an AGC will mostly bounce. Now if your running plenty of other ranged options (I like blastmasters for this too) then its not as big an issue.
Anyway I like to support with tzaangors, a smattering of contemptors and discos and then some flavor units like zerks, scarab termies and havocs.
One issue I feel is that chaos knights are at disadvantage to opposing knights unless you build with them in mind. Headsmans mark is one main reason.
p5freak wrote: Wow, you are still debating this, despite saying you dont want to
Snark aside, I was unaware this was even being debated. Popping smoke launchers in any shooting phase is how it's been played at my FLGS since that FAQ was released.
The way the rules about abilities are written, I assume it's intended. Smoke Launchers are an ability, abilities can be used even in your opponent's turn, the FAQ clarifies the ability can be used when the unit can't shoot.
This reminds me of some of the debates around the Chaos Familiar Stratagem when Codex Death Guard came out. Most people were absolutely convinced there was no way for Mortarion to get Warp Time despite the clear language about Keywords in the Stratagem. GW eventually had to state in a FAQ that Stratagems do what they say they do.
I'd encourage people to keep an open mind about possible interpretations. So long as there's not a rules-based argument against smoke launchers, that's exactly how I would play it. Rules are supposed to come before popular opinion.
p5freak wrote: Wow, you are still debating this, despite saying you dont want to
Snark aside, I was unaware this was even being debated. Popping smoke launchers in any shooting phase is how it's been played at my FLGS since that FAQ was released.
The way the rules about abilities are written, I assume it's intended. Smoke Launchers are an ability, abilities can be used even in your opponent's turn, the FAQ clarifies the ability can be used when the unit can't shoot.
This reminds me of some of the debates around the Chaos Familiar Stratagem when Codex Death Guard came out. Most people were absolutely convinced there was no way for Mortarion to get Warp Time despite the clear language about Keywords in the Stratagem. GW eventually had to state in a FAQ that Stratagems do what they say they do.
I'd encourage people to keep an open mind about possible interpretations. So long as there's not a rules-based argument against smoke launchers, that's exactly how I would play it. Rules are supposed to come before popular opinion.
Some people just dont understand that FAQs can change the rules, and enable you to do things you couldnt do before. I dont think it was intended, though.
Not Online!!! wrote: GW rule writing and FAq quality at it's finest. However as this still is a tactica thread, could we remain on topic?
Sure thing. Working on a Daemon Primarch list. Could use some advice on list-building.
Right now it's at about 1600 points and consists of:
- Mortarion
- Magnus
- Ahriman
- Poxbringer
- Plaguebeargers x 30
- Plaguebeargers x 30
- Lord Dischordant
- Lord Dischordant
- Lord Dischordant
Looking at this as a counter to Loyalist Space Marines, the goal is to throw them off balance. A strong vanguard would get into combat before Tactical Doctrine can kick in (and long before Assault.) They would be backed by durable objective campers and a mechanized rearguard.
Daemon Primarchs are new for me, I've faced them but never played them. Can anyone share stories about how Ahriman + Mortarion performs and what to watch out for? I'm thinking Mortarion gets into combat turn 1 via Warptime and wondering how to do the same with Magnus. I'm concerned they need deep striking units for support to stay on the table more than a couple turns.
Rounding out the list is tricky. I'd like to add a Chaos Knight, but I'm already on 3 detachments and, regardless of tournaments, too many detachments irritates some people. I'm torn between the following:
- Removing the Nurgle detachment and adding 2 Chaos Knights. The downside would be there's no objective campers, I'd have to squeeze points to make this work. The upside would be a serious threat aside from the Primarchs.
- Adding Raptors and Obliterators. The downside would be they come in turn 2 and that might be too late to support the Primarchs. The upside is they can reliably tie up troops / delete problem units.
Can you find a way to squeeze in a Spoilpox Scrivener? That'll make your Plaguebearers hit a LOT harder. (Plus it adds a second HQ to your Patrol, so for 54 points and 3 Nurglings, you get a Battalion for +5 CP.)
JNAProductions wrote: Can you find a way to squeeze in a Spoilpox Scrivener? That'll make your Plaguebearers hit a LOT harder. (Plus it adds a second HQ to your Patrol, so for 54 points and 3 Nurglings, you get a Battalion for +5 CP.)
That may be what I do if I stick with the Nurgle detachment. As-is, this list is CP starved.
you could use the discolords with a bunch of RC corsairs to gain some needed CP.
But that would be an 195 pts investment in 15 dudes idelying about turning thumbs and taking the occasional pot shot. (i also love how they still are 13 pts compared to tac marines at 12 but he, i guess spiketax is a thing for now.)
I am unsure about raptors aswell. altough an msu with plas might be ok i still feel like they are, for what they do just not priced accurately.
I have no idea about daemons. so won't comment on that.
I think an added bonus of RC would be the reach the Lord discordant's would get. And mine do perform well, either due beeing vanguarded or having more reach. (and yes using them as a pack is a must, 1 dies just to some stiff bolterfire if you get unlucky.)
i feel also you lack in long range screen removal.
Altough you could go for 15 CSM again with the Chaincannon.
Not Online!!! wrote: you could use the discolords with a bunch of RC corsairs to gain some needed CP.
But that would be an 195 pts investment in 15 dudes idelying about turning thumbs and taking the occasional pot shot. (i also love how they still are 13 pts compared to tac marines at 12 but he, i guess spiketax is a thing for now.)
I am unsure about raptors aswell. altough an msu with plas might be ok i still feel like they are, for what they do just not priced accurately.
I have no idea about daemons. so won't comment on that.
I think an added bonus of RC would be the reach the Lord discordant's would get. And mine do perform well, either due beeing vanguarded or having more reach. (and yes using them as a pack is a must, 1 dies just to some stiff bolterfire if you get unlucky.)
i feel also you lack in long range screen removal.
Altough you could go for 15 CSM again with the Chaincannon.
That's a good point and certainly something to think about.
I was thinking the Lord Dischordants would be Flawless Host and go into a Soulforged Pack so I could get Mechaserpents with exploding 6s.
How do the CSMs compare with the Plaguebearers for objective camping?
techsoldaten wrote:I'm thinking Mortarion gets into combat turn 1 via Warptime and wondering how to do the same with Magnus
Take a Gnarlmaw and a Noxious Blightbringer. Warptime Magnus. Mortarion Advances best of 2D6, budget 2CP and that’s an average 17” move then 8” charge.
Also, give the Disco Lords MoN and they can do the same. Won’t benefit from NB but 1CP enables a Master of the Soulforges to give them an average 17.5” pace.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Red Corsairs already grant extra CP just for existing. You don't NEED to go the Chaos Marine route and people forget that.
1 additional CP HURAY:
because you might aswell go the full route and gain more CP for 45 pts more.
It isn't 45 points more. It's 105 points more because you're forced to buy the Chaincannon. Otherwise they're literally just as bad (if not worse because they cost more) as Tactical Marines.
The body count of Cultists is just something to trust more.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Red Corsairs already grant extra CP just for existing. You don't NEED to go the Chaos Marine route and people forget that.
1 additional CP HURAY:
because you might aswell go the full route and gain more CP for 45 pts more.
It isn't 45 points more. It's 105 points more because you're forced to buy the Chaincannon. Otherwise they're literally just as bad (if not worse because they cost more) as Tactical Marines.
The body count of Cultists is just something to trust more.
I dindn't know that , ow waot, it isn't mandatory and your average bolter is cheap enough with the 24 " doubletap.
It’s situational. I used it the other day to give Bjorn a good slapping. Abaddon can use it, as well. Kharn, too. Daemons of Khorne have an identical strat, which Bletters and Reaver princes love.
Sometimes, you really can’t afford for a brawl to carry on into the enemy’s turn. It can decide who gets to walk away. Don’t build an army around it, but keep it in mind.
Has anyone tried using either raptors or warptalons with that special detachment that lets them get +2 to the charge with the new hateful assault? It seems like now you might be able to put out enough hits to make a 10 man squad worth it.
Also anyone else not liking the chain cannon havocs? I think they are just to soft once they shoot, and their short range makes it so they are usually exposed after they do. Usually one and done. I don't play against a large amount of hoard armies like Orks, so maybe that matters, but I have been unimpressed. I do like the 4 x Laser cannon ones in the back with AL though. I think the Chain Cannons in the squads is a much better way to use them.
Chaincannons I haven't like except on csm but even then I don't think they've actually pulled their weight except in a few shining moments. Mostly I like my models.
Oh and look ravenguard can snipe daemon princes with troops wounding on 4s, or even on 3s with eliminators. Nearlyt the entire army can wound character knights on 4s thats pretty nuts.
4 AL slaanesh havocs with lascannon and devastation battery is a good unit. Put them in cover in your backfield, with a -1/-2 to be hit, can be a pain in the ass for some lists.
Not Online!!! wrote: GW rule writing and FAq quality at it's finest. However as this still is a tactica thread, could we remain on topic?
Sure thing. Working on a Daemon Primarch list. Could use some advice on list-building.
Right now it's at about 1600 points and consists of:
- Mortarion
- Magnus
- Ahriman
- Poxbringer
- Plaguebeargers x 30
- Plaguebeargers x 30
- Lord Dischordant
- Lord Dischordant
- Lord Dischordant
Looking at this as a counter to Loyalist Space Marines, the goal is to throw them off balance. A strong vanguard would get into combat before Tactical Doctrine can kick in (and long before Assault.) They would be backed by durable objective campers and a mechanized rearguard.
Daemon Primarchs are new for me, I've faced them but never played them. Can anyone share stories about how Ahriman + Mortarion performs and what to watch out for? I'm thinking Mortarion gets into combat turn 1 via Warptime and wondering how to do the same with Magnus. I'm concerned they need deep striking units for support to stay on the table more than a couple turns.
Rounding out the list is tricky. I'd like to add a Chaos Knight, but I'm already on 3 detachments and, regardless of tournaments, too many detachments irritates some people. I'm torn between the following:
- Removing the Nurgle detachment and adding 2 Chaos Knights. The downside would be there's no objective campers, I'd have to squeeze points to make this work. The upside would be a serious threat aside from the Primarchs.
- Adding Raptors and Obliterators. The downside would be they come in turn 2 and that might be too late to support the Primarchs. The upside is they can reliably tie up troops / delete problem units.
How is this list legal? Morty and Mag are LOW not HQ... so you have a supreme command... a patrol... and a???? Looking at it again its possible but seems you have to really wreck the list to make it work?
Not Online!!! wrote: GW rule writing and FAq quality at it's finest. However as this still is a tactica thread, could we remain on topic?
Sure thing. Working on a Daemon Primarch list. Could use some advice on list-building.
Right now it's at about 1600 points and consists of:
- Mortarion
- Magnus
- Ahriman
- Poxbringer
- Plaguebeargers x 30
- Plaguebeargers x 30
- Lord Dischordant
- Lord Dischordant
- Lord Dischordant
Looking at this as a counter to Loyalist Space Marines, the goal is to throw them off balance. A strong vanguard would get into combat before Tactical Doctrine can kick in (and long before Assault.) They would be backed by durable objective campers and a mechanized rearguard.
Daemon Primarchs are new for me, I've faced them but never played them. Can anyone share stories about how Ahriman + Mortarion performs and what to watch out for? I'm thinking Mortarion gets into combat turn 1 via Warptime and wondering how to do the same with Magnus. I'm concerned they need deep striking units for support to stay on the table more than a couple turns.
Rounding out the list is tricky. I'd like to add a Chaos Knight, but I'm already on 3 detachments and, regardless of tournaments, too many detachments irritates some people. I'm torn between the following:
- Removing the Nurgle detachment and adding 2 Chaos Knights. The downside would be there's no objective campers, I'd have to squeeze points to make this work. The upside would be a serious threat aside from the Primarchs.
- Adding Raptors and Obliterators. The downside would be they come in turn 2 and that might be too late to support the Primarchs. The upside is they can reliably tie up troops / delete problem units.
How is this list legal? Morty and Mag are LOW not HQ... so you have a supreme command... a patrol... and a???? Looking at it again its possible but seems you have to really wreck the list to make it work?
Yeah, this list is barebones. Most of the models are brand new so I'm taking time to work out the details.
Here's the basic structure right now:
- Supreme command detachment for Ahriman, Magnus and... a couple HQs?
- Mortarion goes into a Super-Heavy Auxiliary detachment.
- The Nurgle units go into a Patrol detachment.
- The Lord Dischordants go into a Supreme Command Detachment.
Now, I could move the Lord Dischordants to the first SCD to bring it to 3 detachments. But that's not optimal, plenty of suggestions to think about in this thread.
I know I need to add a Feculent Gnarlmaw and Noxious Blightbringer to get Mortarion into combat first turn.
That gets me thinking about the Nurgle detachment, it's there to grab objectives and soak up shots. Wondering if it makes sense to add some firepower via Plague Marines at the expense of some wounds.
AFAIK, without those units, there's no high-probability way to get both Magnus and Mortarion into combat first turn. For comparison and contrast, I'm thinking through what I might be able to do with a Knight instead of one of the Primarchs.
Not Online!!! wrote: GW rule writing and FAq quality at it's finest. However as this still is a tactica thread, could we remain on topic?
Sure thing. Working on a Daemon Primarch list. Could use some advice on list-building.
Right now it's at about 1600 points and consists of:
- Mortarion
- Magnus
- Ahriman
- Poxbringer
- Plaguebeargers x 30
- Plaguebeargers x 30
- Lord Dischordant
- Lord Dischordant
- Lord Dischordant
Looking at this as a counter to Loyalist Space Marines, the goal is to throw them off balance. A strong vanguard would get into combat before Tactical Doctrine can kick in (and long before Assault.) They would be backed by durable objective campers and a mechanized rearguard.
Daemon Primarchs are new for me, I've faced them but never played them. Can anyone share stories about how Ahriman + Mortarion performs and what to watch out for? I'm thinking Mortarion gets into combat turn 1 via Warptime and wondering how to do the same with Magnus. I'm concerned they need deep striking units for support to stay on the table more than a couple turns.
Rounding out the list is tricky. I'd like to add a Chaos Knight, but I'm already on 3 detachments and, regardless of tournaments, too many detachments irritates some people. I'm torn between the following:
- Removing the Nurgle detachment and adding 2 Chaos Knights. The downside would be there's no objective campers, I'd have to squeeze points to make this work. The upside would be a serious threat aside from the Primarchs.
- Adding Raptors and Obliterators. The downside would be they come in turn 2 and that might be too late to support the Primarchs. The upside is they can reliably tie up troops / delete problem units.
How is this list legal? Morty and Mag are LOW not HQ... so you have a supreme command... a patrol... and a???? Looking at it again its possible but seems you have to really wreck the list to make it work?
Yeah, this list is barebones. Most of the models are brand new so I'm taking time to work out the details.
Here's the basic structure right now:
- Supreme command detachment for Ahriman, Magnus and... a couple HQs?
- Mortarion goes into a Super-Heavy Auxiliary detachment.
- The Nurgle units go into a Patrol detachment.
- The Lord Dischordants go into a Supreme Command Detachment.
Now, I could move the Lord Dischordants to the first SCD to bring it to 3 detachments. But that's not optimal, plenty of suggestions to think about in this thread.
I know I need to add a Feculent Gnarlmaw and Noxious Blightbringer to get Mortarion into combat first turn.
That gets me thinking about the Nurgle detachment, it's there to grab objectives and soak up shots. Wondering if it makes sense to add some firepower via Plague Marines at the expense of some wounds.
AFAIK, without those units, there's no high-probability way to get both Magnus and Mortarion into combat first turn. For comparison and contrast, I'm thinking through what I might be able to do with a Knight instead of one of the Primarchs.
Bottom line your way over your detachment count frankly. Implying that Magnus goes into a supreme command with ahriman and lord discos(?) is a terrible idea, you are diluting your damage. Discos really need to be run as eitehr Flawless host (sweet sweet damge) or RC for cp with CSM. Putting them in a janky Tsons detach you might as well be bringing DP for those price and just run ahriman and friends with magnus, morti and filler.
This list 'optimized' will be ahriman and friends + Magnus, morti in a spuer heavy aux and EITHER the disco lords +/- deredeos, or plaguebearers. Otherwise you are sacrificing a lot of synergy (this is only in my opinion).
Gnarlmaw doesn't fit this list, really only goes with plague drones and plaguebearers for mobilities and maybe PBC...
Sorry if i missed you are playing more than 2000 points and non competitieve, but even the breakdown of detachments you provided are (4) which is one over what is possible in most 2000 tournaments. It seems 'easy' to just drop to one detach, but it really isn't without sacrificing significant strategems / cp etc.
For example @ slave.entity - the current list implies - ahriman + 2 lord disco and magnus in a supreme command (access to Tsons strats) alongside morti in a super heavy aux, and 1 disco lord 1 poxbringer and plagues +/- nurglings in a nurgle detach. Not really sure how this synergizes well together. Is it legal? yes... But are you min / maxing the benefit of the lord discos and magnus/morti - almost certainly not....
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Red Corsairs already grant extra CP just for existing. You don't NEED to go the Chaos Marine route and people forget that.
1 additional CP HURAY:
because you might aswell go the full route and gain more CP for 45 pts more.
It isn't 45 points more. It's 105 points more because you're forced to buy the Chaincannon. Otherwise they're literally just as bad (if not worse because they cost more) as Tactical Marines.
The body count of Cultists is just something to trust more.
I dindn't know that , ow waot, it isn't mandatory and your average bolter is cheap enough with the 24 " doubletap.
Not Online!!! wrote: Bad.
13 pts for 1 w no FNP, T4.
Ofcourse chances are though that if you skip the chaincannon people ignore them.
Also why waste even more CP for Soulforged when you literally can get the effect with the RC trait and get bonus cp.
Not to mention khorne doublefighting is hillariously fun on Lord discordants.
AFAIK Not legal to double fight with mark of khorne, strategem says INFANTRY or BIKERS, LD is neither.
Feth me sideways.
What's the bloody point then in the 3CP stratagem?
Oh please. The potshots aren't good with Tactical Marines and Ultramarines have so many ways of procuring CP.
I say sticking to the actual strengths of the army. Yeah 3CP is more than 1CP, but do you NEED that much extra CP and is it just a bar justification to say you're running Chaos Marines in a Chaos Space Marine army.
xeen wrote: Has anyone tried using either raptors or warptalons with that special detachment that lets them get +2 to the charge with the new hateful assault? It seems like now you might be able to put out enough hits to make a 10 man squad worth it.
Also anyone else not liking the chain cannon havocs? I think they are just to soft once they shoot, and their short range makes it so they are usually exposed after they do. Usually one and done. I don't play against a large amount of hoard armies like Orks, so maybe that matters, but I have been unimpressed. I do like the 4 x Laser cannon ones in the back with AL though. I think the Chain Cannons in the squads is a much better way to use them.
I’m using a new Khorne Daemonkin collection and my WE smashlord & 2 x 5 Warp Talons are absolutely pulling their weight
The CP & points expenditure is partly offset by my Bletterbomb being able to come in at 20 models and hit on 2’s without risking Overwatch casualties
Taking 2 x 5 means that if their charge absolutely must succeed, they get two attempts to charge, with a Khorne Daemon aura giving them a reroll on failed charges. Budget a reroll for a low-high Split and that’s a 97% success rate. They can also conga line in opposite directions off the Lord to allow one squad to lead my main charge and the other squad to bully some deep insertion force that got past my backfield screening. Interesting Altar of Skulls synergy, too.
Gonna build them up to 2 x 8 for Khorne but rarely going to use those numbers, I’ll usually add a Plasma/Melta Raptor squad for utility or a Spawn for backfield screening.
As for Chaincannon Havocs - yeah, much prefer to distribute them amongst Heretacs. Havocs feel best used with high power guns plus Armourbane.
Not Online!!! wrote: GW rule writing and FAq quality at it's finest. However as this still is a tactica thread, could we remain on topic?
Sure thing. Working on a Daemon Primarch list. Could use some advice on list-building.
Right now it's at about 1600 points and consists of:
- Mortarion
- Magnus
- Ahriman
- Poxbringer
- Plaguebeargers x 30
- Plaguebeargers x 30
- Lord Dischordant
- Lord Dischordant
- Lord Dischordant
Looking at this as a counter to Loyalist Space Marines, the goal is to throw them off balance. A strong vanguard would get into combat before Tactical Doctrine can kick in (and long before Assault.) They would be backed by durable objective campers and a mechanized rearguard.
Daemon Primarchs are new for me, I've faced them but never played them. Can anyone share stories about how Ahriman + Mortarion performs and what to watch out for? I'm thinking Mortarion gets into combat turn 1 via Warptime and wondering how to do the same with Magnus. I'm concerned they need deep striking units for support to stay on the table more than a couple turns.
Rounding out the list is tricky. I'd like to add a Chaos Knight, but I'm already on 3 detachments and, regardless of tournaments, too many detachments irritates some people. I'm torn between the following:
- Removing the Nurgle detachment and adding 2 Chaos Knights. The downside would be there's no objective campers, I'd have to squeeze points to make this work. The upside would be a serious threat aside from the Primarchs.
- Adding Raptors and Obliterators. The downside would be they come in turn 2 and that might be too late to support the Primarchs. The upside is they can reliably tie up troops / delete problem units.
How is this list legal? Morty and Mag are LOW not HQ... so you have a supreme command... a patrol... and a???? Looking at it again its possible but seems you have to really wreck the list to make it work?
Yeah, this list is barebones. Most of the models are brand new so I'm taking time to work out the details.
Here's the basic structure right now:
- Supreme command detachment for Ahriman, Magnus and... a couple HQs?
- Mortarion goes into a Super-Heavy Auxiliary detachment.
- The Nurgle units go into a Patrol detachment.
- The Lord Dischordants go into a Supreme Command Detachment.
Now, I could move the Lord Dischordants to the first SCD to bring it to 3 detachments. But that's not optimal, plenty of suggestions to think about in this thread.
I know I need to add a Feculent Gnarlmaw and Noxious Blightbringer to get Mortarion into combat first turn.
That gets me thinking about the Nurgle detachment, it's there to grab objectives and soak up shots. Wondering if it makes sense to add some firepower via Plague Marines at the expense of some wounds.
AFAIK, without those units, there's no high-probability way to get both Magnus and Mortarion into combat first turn. For comparison and contrast, I'm thinking through what I might be able to do with a Knight instead of one of the Primarchs.
Bottom line your way over your detachment count frankly. Implying that Magnus goes into a supreme command with ahriman and lord discos(?) is a terrible idea, you are diluting your damage. Discos really need to be run as eitehr Flawless host (sweet sweet damge) or RC for cp with CSM. Putting them in a janky Tsons detach you might as well be bringing DP for those price and just run ahriman and friends with magnus, morti and filler.
This list 'optimized' will be ahriman and friends + Magnus, morti in a spuer heavy aux and EITHER the disco lords +/- deredeos, or plaguebearers. Otherwise you are sacrificing a lot of synergy (this is only in my opinion).
Gnarlmaw doesn't fit this list, really only goes with plague drones and plaguebearers for mobilities and maybe PBC...
Sorry if i missed you are playing more than 2000 points and non competitieve, but even the breakdown of detachments you provided are (4) which is one over what is possible in most 2000 tournaments. It seems 'easy' to just drop to one detach, but it really isn't without sacrificing significant strategems / cp etc.
For example @ slave.entity - the current list implies - ahriman + 2 lord disco and magnus in a supreme command (access to Tsons strats) alongside morti in a super heavy aux, and 1 disco lord 1 poxbringer and plagues +/- nurglings in a nurgle detach. Not really sure how this synergizes well together. Is it legal? yes... But are you min / maxing the benefit of the lord discos and magnus/morti - almost certainly not....
Thanks for the feedback. Good points, gets into issues I'm working through right now. While the list will mostly be used for friendly games, the end-goal is to be good for 2000 point tournaments.
It's a Daemon Primarch list. The big challenge is getting Mortarion and Magnus into combat turn 1. I started with the list I'd like to take, the first step is reliably making that happen.
For Magnus, turn 1 charges just means Warptime. For Mortarion, that means a Feculent Gnarlmaw (for advance and charge), a Noxious Blightbringer (for roll 2 dice when advancing), or both. I don't see another way for Mortarion to get there and will probably just go with the tree.
With regards to detachments, fitting 2 LOWs into a list is tricky. Unless I want another LOW with the Heretic Astartes keyword, each Primarch must be in a separate Supreme Command (Auxiliary?) detachment. Another constraint is the Lord Discordants have to be in their own SCD detachment or lose Legion Traits. Another constraint is the 3 detachment limit, I can't have a detachment for Mortarion AND a detachment for Magnus AND a Nurgle detachment AND a Chaos Space Marine detachment.
It's almost like GW thought this through and deliberately made it hard to do...
So you are correct, the detachment requirements means some units I'd like to take have to change. Considering the following options and would love some feedback.
- Dropping the 3 Lord Discordants for 3 Nurgle Daemon Princes in a SCD with Mortarion. Not as good as Disco Lords, but not bad either. The advance and charge from the Feculent Gnarlmaw means they might also get a turn 1 charge.
- Dropping Ahriman. I like him and Magnus together but maybe that doesn't work in a Daemon Primarch list.
- Adding Nurglings and a Noxious Blightbringer to the Nurgle Detachment. That would bring it to a Batallion for more command points and also mean Mortartion gets to roll 2 dice advancing.
This still leaves me with the problem of getting a Feculent Gnarlmaw on the table in the right spot for advance and charge. I thought it could be summoned, but not seeing that rule anywhere. If I have to use Denizens of the Warp, that costs a command point and means I need a Fortification Detachment, breaking the rule of 3.
This might not be what I ultimately do, but it shows there are some paths forward.
ahriman WORSK in primarch lists, what i could change is the battalion and play 3 LoD in a RC battalion, a supreme Ts for magnus and and superheavy for mortarion.
xeen wrote: Has anyone tried using either raptors or warptalons with that special detachment that lets them get +2 to the charge with the new hateful assault? It seems like now you might be able to put out enough hits to make a 10 man squad worth it.
Also anyone else not liking the chain cannon havocs? I think they are just to soft once they shoot, and their short range makes it so they are usually exposed after they do. Usually one and done. I don't play against a large amount of hoard armies like Orks, so maybe that matters, but I have been unimpressed. I do like the 4 x Laser cannon ones in the back with AL though. I think the Chain Cannons in the squads is a much better way to use them.
I’m using a new Khorne Daemonkin collection and my WE smashlord & 2 x 5 Warp Talons are absolutely pulling their weight
The CP & points expenditure is partly offset by my Bletterbomb being able to come in at 20 models and hit on 2’s without risking Overwatch casualties
Taking 2 x 5 means that if their charge absolutely must succeed, they get two attempts to charge, with a Khorne Daemon aura giving them a reroll on failed charges. Budget a reroll for a low-high Split and that’s a 97% success rate. They can also conga line in opposite directions off the Lord to allow one squad to lead my main charge and the other squad to bully some deep insertion force that got past my backfield screening. Interesting Altar of Skulls synergy, too.
Gonna build them up to 2 x 8 for Khorne but rarely going to use those numbers, I’ll usually add a Plasma/Melta Raptor squad for utility or a Spawn for backfield screening.
As for Chaincannon Havocs - yeah, much prefer to distribute them amongst Heretacs. Havocs feel best used with high power guns plus Armourbane.
Very cool. I was thinking of WE ones supporting my TS list or AL list with a separate detachment. The daemon re-roll is nice, but I think I can get that with the Icon of Khorne right? I was thinking 10 x WE warp talons, smash lord and 2 x 5 raptors with plasma for the detachment then plug and play with my other forces.
Sadly no, Warp Talons are amongst the minority of infantry who can’t take Icons. I’m hesitant to take a single unit outside of a Daemonkin list - it’s rather much of a gamble for my liking.
lindsay40k wrote: Sadly no, Warp Talons are amongst the minority of infantry who can’t take Icons. I’m hesitant to take a single unit outside of a Daemonkin list - it’s rather much of a gamble for my liking.
lindsay40k wrote: Sadly no, Warp Talons are amongst the minority of infantry who can’t take Icons. I’m hesitant to take a single unit outside of a Daemonkin list - it’s rather much of a gamble for my liking.
You could go for the Vigilus formation?
That’s exactly the plan. Host Raptorial + Khorne auras = hard counter for most OW shenanigans
So got two games in with my Chaos Vindicator with the new D6 shots. It makes all the difference. at only 125 and T8 it is a great distraction unit to absorb AT shots. While the D6 shots is still real swing-y, if your opponent ignores it and it gets hot, look out, you are tearing up vehicles. Which will be important against the massive amount of dreadnought Ironhands lists that are coming. Unless you know you are playing a horde army, I would take it over 5 x Chain cannon havocs, and it is 25 points less, or over 5 x AC havocs which it is only 15 points more. I would take it over the 4 x LC predator as it is 55 points cheaper and has the T8.
Also this is not news, but Leviathan Dreads with butchers are good. Like really good.
xeen wrote: So got two games in with my Chaos Vindicator with the new D6 shots. It makes all the difference. at only 125 and T8 it is a great distraction unit to absorb AT shots. While the D6 shots is still real swing-y, if your opponent ignores it and it gets hot, look out, you are tearing up vehicles. Which will be important against the massive amount of dreadnought Ironhands lists that are coming. Unless you know you are playing a horde army, I would take it over 5 x Chain cannon havocs, and it is 25 points less, or over 5 x AC havocs which it is only 15 points more. I would take it over the 4 x LC predator as it is 55 points cheaper and has the T8.
Also this is not news, but Leviathan Dreads with butchers are good. Like really good.
I mean it's obvious.
If the hades ac would not be Stuck on sub par performing units we would also see it more often.
Infact i would be as willing to state that on a pred it would actually be fieldable.
So my daemon engine list didn't do that great a london GT, partly because of my own inexperience, but mostly because it really suffered when going 2nd against the space marine gun lines.
I want to double down on black legion and try to play to thier strengths; which as I see it are having council of traitors, abbadon, and lots of ways to get rerolls.
On abbadon the only thing I can see working well is deep strike with 3 oblits for some serious shooting.. how are people running him?
Anyone else sound any useful strats with the black legion strategems?
Also it seems to be oblits > terminators... anyone disagree?
Finally there are primaris everywhere.. best guns against them look to be plasma or butcher cannons - any other suggestion?
So my daemon engine list didn't do that great a london GT, partly because of my own inexperience, but mostly because it really suffered when going 2nd against the space marine gun lines.
I want to double down on black legion and try to play to thier strengths; which as I see it are having council of traitors, abbadon, and lots of ways to get rerolls.
On abbadon the only thing I can see working well is deep strike with 3 oblits for some serious shooting.. how are people running him?
Anyone else sound any useful strats with the black legion strategems?
Also it seems to be oblits > terminators... anyone disagree?
Finally there are primaris everywhere.. best guns against them look to be plasma or butcher cannons - any other suggestion?
Atm Marine variants are pretty strong, and will likely remain so at least until Chaos gets an actual 2.0 codex release.
Not sure if Black Legion is capable of closing the gap. Their options are fluffy, things like council of traitors are interesting, but not sure they're actually particularly strong. Getting the most from Council requires taking a sorc and an apostle, and unless you build around it the apostle is a hefty tax. Their strongest option is probably to make use of the Pantheon strat and stacking buffs on a powerful unit, but again that's more 'fun' and not sure how it would hold up in a competitive environment.
Best best is still probably alpha legion, at least until they get their trait nerf. After that... not sure. Daemon Engine red corsairs maybe?
Oblits are seen as better than Termies, but only if slaanesh shoot-twice. If you aren't doing that with them, then they're overcosted. I actually like the idea of Pantheon Termies, but again it's a big points sink. I think the issue at the moment is that pretty much all chaos units are overpriced, especially since marines got their new codices.
I've noticed this tactica thread has been very quiet lately, I actually wouldn't be surprised if a number of previous chaos players are instead fielding 'renegade Iron Hands' for the next few months.
Plasma and Butcher cannons are good weapons against pretty much everything. Combi-bolters are also ok for chaff clearing. Not really any other weapons worth taking, other than something like quad-las contemptors.
So my daemon engine list didn't do that great a london GT, partly because of my own inexperience, but mostly because it really suffered when going 2nd against the space marine gun lines.
I want to double down on black legion and try to play to thier strengths; which as I see it are having council of traitors, abbadon, and lots of ways to get rerolls.
On abbadon the only thing I can see working well is deep strike with 3 oblits for some serious shooting.. how are people running him?
Anyone else sound any useful strats with the black legion strategems?
Also it seems to be oblits > terminators... anyone disagree?
Finally there are primaris everywhere.. best guns against them look to be plasma or butcher cannons - any other suggestion?
Can’t tell you any advanced BL plays, but they have two pertinent relics. Teethsword is a Primaris muncher. Angelsbane is a potential check for 3w troopers, useful thing to have to hand if Gravis squads crop up in your meta and you’re not taking knights
In an objectives game, if your force is mobile then keep World Killers in mind
Do your Daemon engines have a specific mark? Changeling can give them a cheeky 6+++
Chosen of the pantheon is sub gimmick tier IMO, you can ultra-charge an Oblits unit with it but they have to keep boots on the table at all times andutterlt rely on T1, all the synergies it presents rely on taking a Daemon detachment that commits you so much you may as well just save a CP and take the mark
I've noticed this tactica thread has been very quiet lately, I actually wouldn't be surprised if a number of previous chaos players are instead fielding 'renegade Iron Hands' for the next few months.
Na, i rekon it's more the Realisation that we got once again shafted.
And I can't blame most of them that either switch to loyalist Versions.
Then again i probably am allready cynically hardened from my r&h experience in 8th sofar.
For me the csm dex will suffice.
Especially killteam has drawn my attention recently, a atleast for a neewbie in that game, seemingly a more even playing field.
any good reasons to play iron warriors ? what is their strength or best tactic? my brother have world eater and black legion so i decide to build a new army as iron warriors.
Iron warriors has a great warlord trait and relic. Their trait is...Pretty ok? Its mid-tier compared to the other old traits before GW decided to power creep the hell out of army tactics.
vaklor4 wrote: Iron warriors has a great warlord trait and relic. Their trait is...Pretty ok? Its mid-tier compared to the other old traits before GW decided to power creep the hell out of army tactics.
As valkor said. You can have morale immune blobs, sourounding your bitter warlord. That said if the meta shifts torwards the sniper fest thanks to RG it might be better to have some other units do bring in the hurt.
It's also an unmakred legion that can do dakka well regardless of table, so long you don't play with LOS blocking terrainrules galore.
My suggestion, consider 2 max blobs of cultists and a warlord with the cold and bitter trait. That is about the fodder you can use decently.
Add a min squad.
Sorcerer, prescience or any other variation you like.
Consider Terminators / oblits in a vanguard spearhead formation with added HQ support to generate more CP via detachments.
Alternatively be fluffy and use a Lord discordant pack? (granted RC would be better for that but with soulforged you get some room to play with)
Following up on Daemon Primarch lists, here's what I'm thinking about for the final list. Would love some feedback.
3 detachments, 2000 points. I'd like to add a Feculent Gnarlmaw but not sure where to trim. Most open to dropping the Sicaran but but I'm not sure what I'd replace it with.
My local meta is competitive and mostly consists of Ultramarines, Iron Hands, Dark Eldar and Imperial Knights. The lists giving me the most trouble right now are Triple Repulsors and Infiltrators / Intercessors.
I've done a little playtesting and found the results encouraging. Mortarion isn't getting into combat turn 1 but he and Magnus have been able to survive past turn 3 all 3 games. The Sicaran isn't doing much, feels like I need to commit to long-range shooting or objective grabbing. Also played a variant that swapped the Nurgle detachment for Disco Lords, could work but I felt starved for bodies. So maybe later.
++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Nurgle) ++
+ HQ +
Poxbringer: Balesword, Smite, Virulent Blessing
Poxbringer: Balesword, Miasma of Pestilence, Smite
+ Troops +
Nurglings
. 3x Nurgling Swarms: 3x Diseased claws and teeth
Nurglings
. 3x Nurgling Swarms: 3x Diseased claws and teeth
Ahriman: Black Staff of Ahriman, Frag & Krak grenades, Glamour of Tzeentch, Inferno Bolt Pistol, Smite, Tzeentch's Firestorm, Warptime
Daemon Prince of Tzeentch: Gaze of Fate, Infernal Gaze, Malefic talon, Malefic talon, Smite, Wings
Sorcerer on Disc of Tzeentch: Blades on Disc of Tzeentch, Combi-bolter, Death Hex, Diabolic Strength, Force stave, Frag & Krak grenades, Helm of the Third Eye, Smite
+ Lord of War +
Magnus the Red: Bolt of Change, Doombolt, Infernal Gateway, Prescience, Smite, The Blade of Magnus, Warlord
++ Super-Heavy Auxiliary Detachment (Chaos - Death Guard) ++
+ Lord of War +
Mortarion: 1. Miasma of Pestilence, 4. Blades of Putrefaction, 6. Curse of the Leper, Attendant's claws and teeth, Phosphex bombs, Silence, Smite, The Lantern
techsoldaten wrote: Following up on Daemon Primarch lists, here's what I'm thinking about for the final list. Would love some feedback.
3 detachments, 2000 points. I'd like to add a Feculent Gnarlmaw but not sure where to trim. Most open to dropping the Sicaran but but I'm not sure what I'd replace it with.
My local meta is competitive and mostly consists of Ultramarines, Iron Hands, Dark Eldar and Imperial Knights. The lists giving me the most trouble right now are Triple Repulsors and Infiltrators / Intercessors.
I've done a little playtesting and found the results encouraging. Mortarion isn't getting into combat turn 1 but he and Magnus have been able to survive past turn 3 all 3 games. The Sicaran isn't doing much, feels like I need to commit to long-range shooting or objective grabbing. Also played a variant that swapped the Nurgle detachment for Disco Lords, could work but I felt starved for bodies. So maybe later.
++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Nurgle) ++
+ HQ +
Poxbringer: Balesword, Smite, Virulent Blessing
Poxbringer: Balesword, Miasma of Pestilence, Smite
+ Troops +
Nurglings
. 3x Nurgling Swarms: 3x Diseased claws and teeth
Nurglings
. 3x Nurgling Swarms: 3x Diseased claws and teeth
Ahriman: Black Staff of Ahriman, Frag & Krak grenades, Glamour of Tzeentch, Inferno Bolt Pistol, Smite, Tzeentch's Firestorm, Warptime
Daemon Prince of Tzeentch: Gaze of Fate, Infernal Gaze, Malefic talon, Malefic talon, Smite, Wings
Sorcerer on Disc of Tzeentch: Blades on Disc of Tzeentch, Combi-bolter, Death Hex, Diabolic Strength, Force stave, Frag & Krak grenades, Helm of the Third Eye, Smite
+ Lord of War +
Magnus the Red: Bolt of Change, Doombolt, Infernal Gateway, Prescience, Smite, The Blade of Magnus, Warlord
++ Super-Heavy Auxiliary Detachment (Chaos - Death Guard) ++
+ Lord of War +
Mortarion: 1. Miasma of Pestilence, 4. Blades of Putrefaction, 6. Curse of the Leper, Attendant's claws and teeth, Phosphex bombs, Silence, Smite, The Lantern
I'm surprised magnus lives until T3, I've run both Magnus and Morty before and it felt heavily reliant on who goes first typically against big gunlines... Not sure about the sicaran as it isn't in many comp lists and has no invul, but you do have target saturation. Since it is elite you can make it TSons and move it to the supreme command with ahriman and preserve your nurgle legion triat and access to CD Strats.
So my daemon engine list didn't do that great a london GT, partly because of my own inexperience, but mostly because it really suffered when going 2nd against the space marine gun lines.
I want to double down on black legion and try to play to thier strengths; which as I see it are having council of traitors, abbadon, and lots of ways to get rerolls.
On abbadon the only thing I can see working well is deep strike with 3 oblits for some serious shooting.. how are people running him?
Anyone else sound any useful strats with the black legion strategems?
Also it seems to be oblits > terminators... anyone disagree?
Finally there are primaris everywhere.. best guns against them look to be plasma or butcher cannons - any other suggestion?
Can’t tell you any advanced BL plays, but they have two pertinent relics. Teethsword is a Primaris muncher. Angelsbane is a potential check for 3w troopers, useful thing to have to hand if Gravis squads crop up in your meta and you’re not taking knights
In an objectives game, if your force is mobile then keep World Killers in mind
Do your Daemon engines have a specific mark? Changeling can give them a cheeky 6+++
Chosen of the pantheon is sub gimmick tier IMO, you can ultra-charge an Oblits unit with it but they have to keep boots on the table at all times andutterlt rely on T1, all the synergies it presents rely on taking a Daemon detachment that commits you so much you may as well just save a CP and take the mark
Thanks all for the info.. didn't know about the changling... 100points for a 6+++ in a 9" bubble feels pretty good.
I have a kytan so I was thinking about going the crimson crown route with some dual butcher cannon decimators...
But 6+++ for everything may be the better way to go. Hm.
Bit worried about how fragile decimators seem to be, my defliers were taking quite a beating but have 6 more wounds :-/
Yeah, Defiler really feels like king of the DE right now, Decimators don’t seem to have any real niche atm. Anything good they can do is overwhelmingly reliant on getting T1.
lindsay40k wrote: Yeah, Defiler really feels like king of the DE right now, Decimators don’t seem to have any real niche atm. Anything good they can do is overwhelmingly reliant on getting T1.
I think for the points defliers are pretty good, but it's a challenge to get them into combat, and without any rerolls you are hitting on 4s which is painful.
They are also big clunky models which tend to get in the way.
I had been running them as slaanesh, running one up, putting a 5++ on it and popping smoke... that combo makes one very very hard to take down.
Honestly they felt they make thier point more by absorbing fire power then dealing damage, although stats wise they should be destroying big stuff in melee.
I like the idea of a decimator fire base, but from what I've seen recently they would be toast T1 as t7 5++ and 8w is just not enough.
lindsay40k wrote: Yeah, Defiler really feels like king of the DE right now, Decimators don’t seem to have any real niche atm. Anything good they can do is overwhelmingly reliant on getting T1.
I think for the points defliers are pretty good, but it's a challenge to get them into combat, and without any rerolls you are hitting on 4s which is painful.
They are also big clunky models which tend to get in the way.
I had been running them as slaanesh, running one up, putting a 5++ on it and popping smoke... that combo makes one very very hard to take down.
Honestly they felt they make thier point more by absorbing fire power then dealing damage, although stats wise they should be destroying big stuff in melee.
I like the idea of a decimator fire base, but from what I've seen recently they would be toast T1 as t7 5++ and 8w is just not enough.
run lord disco and a Dp and poof you hit at 3+ rerolling 1's ,solid list choices for ETC.
lindsay40k wrote: Yeah, Defiler really feels like king of the DE right now, Decimators don’t seem to have any real niche atm. Anything good they can do is overwhelmingly reliant on getting T1.
I think for the points defliers are pretty good, but it's a challenge to get them into combat, and without any rerolls you are hitting on 4s which is painful.
They are also big clunky models which tend to get in the way.
I had been running them as slaanesh, running one up, putting a 5++ on it and popping smoke... that combo makes one very very hard to take down.
Honestly they felt they make thier point more by absorbing fire power then dealing damage, although stats wise they should be destroying big stuff in melee.
I like the idea of a decimator fire base, but from what I've seen recently they would be toast T1 as t7 5++ and 8w is just not enough.
run lord disco and a Dp and poof you hit at 3+ rerolling 1's ,solid list choices for ETC.
Assuming that my list already contains a lord disco and a prince, does that mean a defiler actually becomes a decent choice? I only ever remember them being a pretty sub-par option, would be interesting if they are now decent. What if they were compared to other options though, such as a maulerfiend or one of the dreadnoughts like a contemptor.
I do run 2 discordants and a prince, the issue is your discordants tend to pull ahead of the defliers who only move 8 (10 with the soul forge pack) vs 14-16 of the discordants.
Defilers are the best DE for close combat on paper excepting the discordant. Something like 142 points, with the auto cannons and flail. They get 5 s16 d6d and 3 s12 3d attacks in that setup, which will murder any heavy target if you pop deamon forge.
Having 14 wounds is also a big advantage in my book and they degrade in a decent way.
lindsay40k wrote: Yeah, Defiler really feels like king of the DE right now, Decimators don’t seem to have any real niche atm. Anything good they can do is overwhelmingly reliant on getting T1.
I think for the points defliers are pretty good, but it's a challenge to get them into combat, and without any rerolls you are hitting on 4s which is painful.
They are also big clunky models which tend to get in the way.
I had been running them as slaanesh, running one up, putting a 5++ on it and popping smoke... that combo makes one very very hard to take down.
Honestly they felt they make thier point more by absorbing fire power then dealing damage, although stats wise they should be destroying big stuff in melee.
I like the idea of a decimator fire base, but from what I've seen recently they would be toast T1 as t7 5++ and 8w is just not enough.
run lord disco and a Dp and poof you hit at 3+ rerolling 1's ,solid list choices for ETC.
Assuming that my list already contains a lord disco and a prince, does that mean a defiler actually becomes a decent choice? I only ever remember them being a pretty sub-par option, would be interesting if they are now decent. What if they were compared to other options though, such as a maulerfiend or one of the dreadnoughts like a contemptor.
The dakka Version costs 136.
And comes with enough bullets on it's own to get work done.
Nearby Lord and or Lord discordant and it becomes a disgusting bullethose.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
mrtomski wrote: I do run 2 discordants and a prince, the issue is your discordants tend to pull ahead of the defliers who only move 8 (10 with the soul forge pack) vs 14-16 of the discordants.
Defilers are the best DE for close combat on paper excepting the discordant. Something like 142 points, with the auto cannons and flail. They get 5 s16 d6d and 3 s12 3d attacks in that setup, which will murder any heavy target if you pop deamon forge.
Having 14 wounds is also a big advantage in my book and they degrade in a decent way.
The thing to remember, sorcerer support is needed or DA, for melee imo.
Also on the decimator firebase.
If you have enough other threats they tend to get ignored somewhat.
I also feel that traits not applying hurts daemonengines more then BS4+ even.
If dakka defiler is havok launcher + reaper autocannon I'm not sure it's that great. I mean ok points wise I guess but not going to do a great deal of damage to anything.
I've come to the conclusion I'll drop defilers from my list (had 2) and try the obliterator bomb, which with vets and shoot twice I think will have more of an impact on the game than the defilers.
May also try a game with the defilers sat still shooting and see what the results are.
mrtomski wrote: If dakka defiler is havok launcher + reaper autocannon I'm not sure it's that great. I mean ok points wise I guess but not going to do a great deal of damage to anything.
I've come to the conclusion I'll drop defilers from my list (had 2) and try the obliterator bomb, which with vets and shoot twice I think will have more of an impact on the game than the defilers.
May also try a game with the defilers sat still shooting and see what the results are.
Is there any way to make abby advance and charge?
Inbetween a reaper, bc and havoc launcher you get enough variety to deal significant enough damage.
Especially for the price.
Dark apostles... since I'm doubling down on black legion it makes sense to have one as a trusted war leader. I run a kytan so will use benediction of darkness to give him that sweet -1 T1.
Am I right in understanding that I'm then stuck with that one prayer for the rest of the game? Anyone running the apostles and getting good mileage out of them?
Dark apostles... since I'm doubling down on black legion it makes sense to have one as a trusted war leader. I run a kytan so will use benediction of darkness to give him that sweet -1 T1.
Am I right in understanding that I'm then stuck with that one prayer for the rest of the game? Anyone running the apostles and getting good mileage out of them?
Word Bearer here, trying to make them work for fluff.
Honestly, I’ve not had great results. I previously had them ride with Berzerkers & an EC and they were incredible. Now, they’re obligate footsloggers, and it seems that every time I use -1 to be hit, I’m facing an army that can easily ignore it - and, whilst the threat of rolling a one then CRR doing the same again is far, far more reliable than, say, Warptime, the danger of it happening makes me reluctant to go all in. Had it happen during a rumble with three SW Dreadnoughts where I really wanted the reroll aura, and honestly don’t think I’d have come out of that alive were it not for lucky vehicle explosions hurting them more than they hurt me.
There’s like three Chaplain characters who know two & say two Litanies, if we had something like that then I’d absolutely be well on board.
Dark apostles... since I'm doubling down on black legion it makes sense to have one as a trusted war leader. I run a kytan so will use benediction of darkness to give him that sweet -1 T1.
Am I right in understanding that I'm then stuck with that one prayer for the rest of the game? Anyone running the apostles and getting good mileage out of them?
Word Bearer here, trying to make them work for fluff.
Honestly, I’ve not had great results. I previously had them ride with Berzerkers & an EC and they were incredible. Now, they’re obligate footsloggers, and it seems that every time I use -1 to be hit, I’m facing an army that can easily ignore it - and, whilst the threat of rolling a one then CRR doing the same again is far, far more reliable than, say, Warptime, the danger of it happening makes me reluctant to go all in. Had it happen during a rumble with three SW Dreadnoughts where I really wanted the reroll aura, and honestly don’t think I’d have come out of that alive were it not for lucky vehicle explosions hurting them more than they hurt me.
There’s like three Chaplain characters who know two & say two Litanies, if we had something like that then I’d absolutely be well on board.
Insult to injury our apostles are one trick Ponys aaaannnd cost more.
TBF, Chaplains having no way to boost beyond a 3+ makes them much, much worse off
Paying 110 & budgeting a CP for it to have a 97% chance of successfully casting -1 to be hit on a LoW is at least a niche
Special character Chaplains are a blunt instrument, trying to throw down a couple of buffs but not reliable enough to build a plan around. A regular Chaplain is a disruptor, unrealisable but the opponent can’t ignore it
I feel that if they could change power (or just know more than one) or cast two they would be great.
Going to try one out.. I have a feeling they will get s points drop in chapter approved too.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I guess in my situation at least the 110 points potentially gives a few cp over the course of a game (black legion, trusted war leader)
techsoldaten wrote: Following up on Daemon Primarch lists, here's what I'm thinking about for the final list. Would love some feedback.
3 detachments, 2000 points. I'd like to add a Feculent Gnarlmaw but not sure where to trim. Most open to dropping the Sicaran but but I'm not sure what I'd replace it with.
My local meta is competitive and mostly consists of Ultramarines, Iron Hands, Dark Eldar and Imperial Knights. The lists giving me the most trouble right now are Triple Repulsors and Infiltrators / Intercessors.
I've done a little playtesting and found the results encouraging. Mortarion isn't getting into combat turn 1 but he and Magnus have been able to survive past turn 3 all 3 games. The Sicaran isn't doing much, feels like I need to commit to long-range shooting or objective grabbing. Also played a variant that swapped the Nurgle detachment for Disco Lords, could work but I felt starved for bodies. So maybe later.
++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Nurgle) ++
+ HQ +
Poxbringer: Balesword, Smite, Virulent Blessing
Poxbringer: Balesword, Miasma of Pestilence, Smite
+ Troops +
Nurglings . 3x Nurgling Swarms: 3x Diseased claws and teeth
Nurglings . 3x Nurgling Swarms: 3x Diseased claws and teeth
Ahriman: Black Staff of Ahriman, Frag & Krak grenades, Glamour of Tzeentch, Inferno Bolt Pistol, Smite, Tzeentch's Firestorm, Warptime
Daemon Prince of Tzeentch: Gaze of Fate, Infernal Gaze, Malefic talon, Malefic talon, Smite, Wings
Sorcerer on Disc of Tzeentch: Blades on Disc of Tzeentch, Combi-bolter, Death Hex, Diabolic Strength, Force stave, Frag & Krak grenades, Helm of the Third Eye, Smite
+ Lord of War +
Magnus the Red: Bolt of Change, Doombolt, Infernal Gateway, Prescience, Smite, The Blade of Magnus, Warlord
++ Super-Heavy Auxiliary Detachment (Chaos - Death Guard) ++
+ Lord of War +
Mortarion: 1. Miasma of Pestilence, 4. Blades of Putrefaction, 6. Curse of the Leper, Attendant's claws and teeth, Phosphex bombs, Silence, Smite, The Lantern
I'm surprised magnus lives until T3, I've run both Magnus and Morty before and it felt heavily reliant on who goes first typically against big gunlines... Not sure about the sicaran as it isn't in many comp lists and has no invul, but you do have target saturation. Since it is elite you can make it TSons and move it to the supreme command with ahriman and preserve your nurgle legion triat and access to CD Strats.
Thanks for the heads up. Completely forgot that a Supreme Command detachment can take an elites option, makes a big difference.
The Sicaran is mostly good for taking wounds off a target before Magnus or Mortarion charge, then killing tanks. I like it because opponents are mostly focused on shooting at the Primarchs, it doesn't get target priority until they are gone.
Possible dumb question inbound: What is better 6 Terminators with Combi-plasma & Chain/Power axes and a Predator with Lascannons OR 3 Slaanesh Obliterators?
I've been using Termies + Pred in my casual games against my sons' Marines, but now that they both got significant boosts, that combo isn't cutting the mustard. For the same points cost, I can get 3 Oblits that can drop in and shoot twice via Endless Cacophony.
It's more eggs in one basket, but considering my Pred rarely lasts past the first turn and my Termies tend to evaporate after they drop in, 3 Oblits might at least do more damage before disappearing. I'd get more bang for casting Prescience on them and using the shoot twice strat
Not Online!!! wrote: I'd not bother with the pred and instead would take a Vindicator.
Hmmm. I like the T8 and nearly 60pt decrease compared to the 4Las Pred. But only 24" and D6 shots gives me concern. It seems like I'd have to pour lots of resources into making that work. I was already using Blasphemous Machines to move the Pred out from behind LOS blocking terrain and using Prescience, so probably still would use those. But with D6 shots, I'm very likely to need to use the command Re-roll often to ensure the occasional 1 or 2 is rerolled for hopefully more shots. The 24" also seems like it puts the Vindicare in the danger zone of being vaporized even faster, or worse, not getting range on an idea target on turn 1.
A single Vindicator feels like it falls under the category of unreliable but plausible threats. No big things want to find themselves within 24” of it.
You can easily throw Prescience and Warptime and BM and a CRR at the number of shots when some key target puts a foot wrong, and still come away with one hit that whiffs the Wound roll.
Strikes me that it’s a very bullet-magnetic distraction Carnifex that non-horde lists can’t afford to ignore.
lindsay40k wrote: Strikes me that it’s a very bullet-magnetic distraction Carnifex that non-horde lists can’t afford to ignore.
Which basically puts it on the nevermind list for me. As the ONLY vehicle in my list, it seems better just to drop it altogether. I needed the LasPred to plink as their TL/ML Ven Dreads in their back fields, but dropping it outright seems like a better option that playing "who can kill the others vehicles first"
Not Online!!! wrote: I'd not bother with the pred and instead would take a Vindicator.
Hmmm. I like the T8 and nearly 60pt decrease compared to the 4Las Pred. But only 24" and D6 shots gives me concern.
It seems like I'd have to pour lots of resources into making that work. I was already using Blasphemous Machines to move the Pred out from behind LOS blocking terrain and using Prescience, so probably still would use those. But with D6 shots, I'm very likely to need to use the command Re-roll often to ensure the occasional 1 or 2 is rerolled for hopefully more shots.
The 24" also seems like it puts the Vindicare in the danger zone of being vaporized even faster, or worse, not getting range on an idea target on turn 1.
How do you mitigate these issues?
-
Tbf my Vindicator does nor expect to survive, if he does he's like a assault gun cheap and hellishly dangerous.
Ergo he draws fire.
Altough i am also a wierdo that runs warpsmith, additionally if you want him to survive you can always use a da, or sorcerer.
Nearby Lord might also do well. However i am also on tables were terrain is abundant making the range less of and issue.
lindsay40k wrote: Strikes me that it’s a very bullet-magnetic distraction Carnifex that non-horde lists can’t afford to ignore.
Which basically puts it on the nevermind list for me. As the ONLY vehicle in my list, it seems better just to drop it altogether. I needed the LasPred to plink as their TL/ML Ven Dreads in their back fields, but dropping it outright seems like a better option that playing "who can kill the others vehicles first"
-
You could consider a defiler on dakka then.
The bc and reaper ac aren't to bad at AT duty.
Add in a lord or stratagem and you should be able to destroy obe or the other dread.
Self healing might also come in Handy.
I sometimes also run a Heldrake because it can move 30" and charge one of their Dreads to at least stop them from shooting for a turn. But then it always dies right after.
I'm hoping this tactic will eventually stop working for me and my boys learn how to screen their Dreads. They grasp the rules well enough, but they still haven't figured out how to "properly" deploy or play the mission IMO. We just finished a game in which I had to insist he shot at some on my Choas Marines on a 4VP objective even though they were far away and not an immediate threat. But because he killed them (at my insistence), he robbed me of those VPs which gave him the win.
Regarding the Deflier, considering my Chaos collection included models from every Legion and major warbands like Red Corsairs & Crimson Slaughter and is built to include "classic" models, getting a Defiler would seem logical. However it's stats just look HORRENDOUS since you want to move to take advantage of it's required melee stats, but it doesn't inherently ignore the penalty for moving and firing Heavies AND only starts with BS4+. So I'd be spending about the same points as a Pred and still almost never hitting. Hard Pass even in casual games, I'm afraid.
No, I think Oblits are the answer for now. 3 Slaanesh Oblti dropping in, firing at various targets, then firing again via the Strat seems like the way to go to neutralize threats. I'll just have to build my list so that nothing important is exposed turn 1
Is there a consensus on how to play against iron hands? I mean in bleeding edge competitive 40k, I'm not much into garage hammer (which is great btw!). If you are anticipating 3 repulsers with thunderfire cannon etc. Is it jeff vesels list plaguebearers and ahriman + friends list? As far as I can tell you won't be able to smite anything decent to death reliably and iron hands will heal back up. A lord disco will die on average (overkill) charging a repulser and/or a levi dread with the 4+ strat and rerolling hits and rerolls 1 of wound (not to mention any 'for the greater good' shananagins)... Not to mention most compteitive opponents aren't going to put the iron father out there to let you charge them in the first place (most savy opponents in larger tournies)...
Is it time to dig back out the 120 plaguebearer army with plague drones and a gnarlmaw? I think the plaguedrones are one of the few models that 'may' live the overwatch agains the Iron hands castle. I know the popular party line is 'play the objectives' but against a competent opponent they will be doing the same and the limitation of 'castling' for something that can move and fire heavy weapons (and fall back and shoot [repulser executioners[) is limited... Also most ITC has at most one 'magic box' and you can't afford to litter the table with ruins that allow you to charge without taking overwatch... Or even NOVA for example has very fixed setting of terrain.
I guess we will have to see what this weekend brings in terms of competitive meta but Chaos aren't exactly teaming with models that don't take overwatch on charge (sorry warp talons are awful in competitive, also see the negative to charge range...). I know mortal wounds are the popular answer but ahriman and friends just doesn't feel like enough and with the minus to charge blightlords and most DG feel unreliable... Finally primarchs and big guys do poorly against the -1 damage / half, but are further superceded by the fact that most lists that are either iron hands or built to beat iron hands will likely be min/maxed to destroy primarchs... I can see the silver lining for tau (maybe), orks, and Harlequin etc. but struggling a bit for chaos...
I feel a bit disheartened but also realize the dice haven't hit the table yet - any one have insight from playtesting buddies etc.?
Seems like the Marine comeback is extreme vs chaos. But that can be said for chaos vs Eldar plane list. So far it seems like chasing tails situation atm eldarwin marine we win eldar kinda situation.
But if you make any of the classic good chaos ,tsons, demons etc list and play the missions mentality build around you can definitely try a narrow win.
Play your army play your str and try to min your weakness is important. I agree tha chaso is not in a good shape atm with all that Marine going around atm but it should balnce out more soon.
death guard for me have gain points atm and seem a more reliable option so back to defensive nurgle strat.
orkswubwub wrote: Is there a consensus on how to play against iron hands?
tc.?
So Iron Hands are going to want to castle up around the Ironstone and Iron Father. The range of their abilities is 3” so they have to be right on top of the Repulsors. This is begging to be hit by the Linebreaker Bombardment stratagem from 3 Vindicators. You get around almost all their defenses and spread mortal wounds around everywhere.
What’s to keep the Repulsors from just starting the game separated and then coming together to kill a Vindicator on their turn? That would be 3 Chaos Knights with double thermal cannons. Those Knights will force IH to ball up around the characters for defense and the 3 Vindicators can take advantage of that.
3 double thermal cannon Knights and 3 Vindicators is 1566pts before missiles are added to the Knights. You can get a small battalion of Red Corsairs to fit in there for death hex and the 8 cp’s.
tneva82 wrote: That stratagem is unlikely to kill character. They can turn unit next to character into bodyguard so wounds to character just kill few more troops
I think the real concern is the 24 inch range honestly. Also if you lose one vindicator you lose the ability to use the strat which is troublesome. Overall using just the thermals and the vindicators may be decent against IH but will be soft against any hordes. Not sure on the vindicator after its buff, skeptical due to no invul and the likely ongoing uptick in armies with anti-vehicle. Would have to play test it some.
Not convince on stratagem even if it were 60" range. Not a threat to character and with all the healing on ih you need to focus fire on 1 to kill. If you hurt multiples a little most/all damage gets healed anyway.
Thought necron scythe stratagem 'hat is similar on platform competive necrons have anyway but on second thought realised effect is minimal.
Could work its a lot of damage tbh and a strategy that can work.
Sure its not killing everything but seems a good solution if you want to build and go play it. I would try it . It would be a valid plan Against all castle armies .
Since you got the Knight element you can always try to play vs all castle armies. I believe it would be vital to go first or maybe if you find a way to protect your tanks maybe it can work more often.
It is not the best strat but can work vs castle armies.
Thing is you need to be able to finish multiple tanks then a turn. If you kill one and wound several you basically killed one and that's it. Killing multiple ih tanks is tough
Word Bearers Spearhead
- Lord Discordant
- Master of Possession: Incursion / Cursed Earth / Infernal Power / Mutated Invigoration
- 2-3 Obliterators
- Defiler: Lascannons, Havoc Launcher
- Maulerfiend: Tendrils
Reinforcement Points: at least enough for 20+ Pink Horrors, 3 Flamers
The TS zoom up with the Herald. The LD walks up with the Maulerfiend, staying in range of the Defiler. The MoP and Changeling hang out between the DEs, and summon the Horrors, who get Flickering Flames. T2, the Obliterators land and get the same. A second summon may draw in Flamers, or the RPs may be used to cycle Horrors.
The MoP’s spells will depend upon what I’m facing. If there’s no psyker shutdown threat like World Eaters or Kronos, Incursion will be used for deeper insertion of Horrors. Not sure about WT & Relic. Also might switch Mauler for second Defiler kitted for combat.
So I played vs Iron Hands for the first time, and just got completely dabbed on, and he didnt even bring an overly cheesy list. What would be good counter units to iron hands gunline/vehicle heavy lists? I found that he was easily able to bring both anti infantry and anti armor in spades, so I dont think leaning heavy into one or the other would work. Would swapping to my demon army work better? Nurgle might stand a chance and khorne could blow a chunk in his army from a letter bomb.
Oblits have a good chance of killing an IH vehicle. 18 shots hitting on 3s, +1 to wound with votlw, and endless cacophony. Add a lord for re-roll 1s and/or a sorcerer for prescience +1 to hit. But thats very expensive. Bloodletter bomb would need to charge something which has not many shots, because IH can overwatch on 4+. And then pile in to tie up as many vehicles as possible.
vaklor4 wrote: So I played vs Iron Hands for the first time, and just got completely dabbed on, and he didnt even bring an overly cheesy list. What would be good counter units to iron hands gunline/vehicle heavy lists? I found that he was easily able to bring both anti infantry and anti armor in spades, so I dont think leaning heavy into one or the other would work. Would swapping to my demon army work better? Nurgle might stand a chance and khorne could blow a chunk in his army from a letter bomb.
Can you tell us a little more about the list you faced?
Everyone is adjusting to NuMarines, it's easier to offer advice when there's an example to work from.
My local meta is heavy with Ultramarines, Dark Eldar and Imperial Knights. I don't get to play against IH very often, but I'd like to be prepared when I do.
It had a few MSU of tacs, 3 warsuits, 3 razorbacks, 3 thunderfires and 3 predators, along with Iron Father and some techmarines. It wasnt a mega tryhard list but with going first even with my entire army in cover he blew me away by turn 2, with minimal casualties on his end.
vaklor4 wrote: It had a few MSU of tacs, 3 warsuits, 3 razorbacks, 3 thunderfires and 3 predators, along with Iron Father and some techmarines. It wasnt a mega tryhard list but with going first even with my entire army in cover he blew me away by turn 2, with minimal casualties on his end.
So no Primaris, Repulsors or Infiltrators. Check. Were those Assault Cannon razorbacks? Were those laspreds?
Iron Hands are weird, with the Overwatch and the Damage Table rules. Charges are more lethal, tanks can't be bracketed as easily. You really need to destroy a target before you move onto the next.
I have 2 lists that have done well against NuMarines: Black Legion gunline and Daemon Primarchs. The gunline beats them with massed lascannons from range, the Daemon Primarchs win by assaulting before they activate the Tactical doctrine. Without having seen your list, some long range anti-tank firepower would help you beat his tanks. Terminators and Warp Talons would help you deal with his MSU Tacticals.
Of course, those might be good options for fighting this list, maybe not Iron Hands in general.
Yeah, assault cannon razors, and it was 2 cannon preds and a single las pred, who was getting the big buffs. And target selection wasnt a factor, I was playing an assault oriented list and he went first, so by the end of his second shooting phase i barely made it into close combat and he had killed most of my force. Despite my big VP lead, he would just wipe up and win by turn 3.
I never fought IH, but I have beaten NuMarines multiple times. The best counters for them are 2 kind of lists:
1. daemon engines lists, with many vehicls, like 4/5 Engines and 2 rhinos, the reason because invulnerables are the only thing that still works against them and all the attacks have multiple damage, having no screen, a first turn charge with warp time can hurt a lot and castles are somehow vulnerable to exploding vehicles. Ofc going first is pivotal.
2. Alpha legion infantry gunlines. With the itc style we can hide stuff avoiding a first turn tabling, playing infantry we can make the ubiquitous repulsors/executioners less effective with no vehicles to one shot.
The most important thing of all are Obliterators, facing big expensive units we are sure they will repay themselves, when they come down they eliminate all that threats them (they can kill 2 replusors with a bit of luck) and then is just easy win, since troop shooting can't kill them.
@techsoldaten tell us about your Black Legion gunline
I found that Cultists just dont do the trick umless you have Abbadon or a Iron Warriors warlord nearby for the morale, in terms of being anything except objective holders. For their points they do basically nothing offensicely and defensively, so theyre literally just walking wounds. It saddens me how often ive souped demons just for some decent troops.
vaklor4 wrote: I found that Cultists just dont do the trick umless you have Abbadon or a Iron Warriors warlord nearby for the morale, in terms of being anything except objective holders. For their points they do basically nothing offensicely and defensively, so theyre literally just walking wounds. It saddens me how often ive souped demons just for some decent troops.
you could go for red corsair fodder?
But that is imo only better because you get more CP because RC.
I play RC the CP is nice and RC is one of the better legion choices, but Cultists in general are just in a bad spot atm, a stark contrast to their troop slot domination the last 2 years
vaklor4 wrote: Yeah, assault cannon razors, and it was 2 cannon preds and a single las pred, who was getting the big buffs. And target selection wasnt a factor, I was playing an assault oriented list and he went first, so by the end of his second shooting phase i barely made it into close combat and he had killed most of my force. Despite my big VP lead, he would just wipe up and win by turn 3.
That was similar to my first experience playing Ultramarines. I had Obliterators and Bloodletters in deep strike, he took out most of my CSMs, Cultists, HQs and Dreadnoughts first turn with Triple Redemptors.
What scares me about your experience is he didn't bring Primaris, which would have made things worse with better range and additional negative AP modifiers.
While I'm sure it's possible to optimize against Iron Hands, I'm not sure there's a Chaos TAAC list that works against all NuMarine armies (not to mention to other factions.)
DarklyDreaming wrote: I never fought IH, but I have beaten NuMarines multiple times. The best counters for them are 2 kind of lists:
1. daemon engines lists, with many vehicls, like 4/5 Engines and 2 rhinos, the reason because invulnerables are the only thing that still works against them and all the attacks have multiple damage, having no screen, a first turn charge with warp time can hurt a lot and castles are somehow vulnerable to exploding vehicles. Ofc going first is pivotal.
2. Alpha legion infantry gunlines. With the itc style we can hide stuff avoiding a first turn tabling, playing infantry we can make the ubiquitous repulsors/executioners less effective with no vehicles to one shot.
The most important thing of all are Obliterators, facing big expensive units we are sure they will repay themselves, when they come down they eliminate all that threats them (they can kill 2 replusors with a bit of luck) and then is just easy win, since troop shooting can't kill them.
@techsoldaten tell us about your Black Legion gunline
I'll do you one better. There's 5 lists I've used in 10 games versus NuMarines. Here are 4 of them, I'll talk a little about why each one does or does not work.
Bloodletter Bomb - Does Not Work
Spoiler:
++ Battalion Detachment - Black Legion ++
+ HQ +
Chaos Lord: 2. Flames of Spite, 2x Chainsword, Mark of Khorne, Warlord
Dark Apostle: Mark of Slaanesh
Sorcerer with Jump Pack: Bolt pistol, Force sword, No Chaos Mark, Prescience, Warptime
+ Troops +
Chaos Cultists: Mark of Slaanesh
. 13x Chaos Cultist w/ Autogun
. Cultist Champion: Autogun
4x Chaos Cultists: Mark of Slaanesh
. 14x Chaos Cultist w/ Autogun
. Cultist Champion: Autogun
Havocs: No Chaos Mark
. Aspiring Champion: Chainsword, Flamer
. 4x Havoc w/ lascannon: 4x Lascannon
Obliterators: Mark of Slaanesh, 3x Obliterator
++ Patrol Detachment (Khorne Daemons) ++
+ HQ +
Bloodmaster
+ Troops +
Bloodletters: 29x Bloodletter, Bloodreaper, Daemonic Icon, Instrument of Chaos
Bloodletters: 29x Bloodletter, Bloodreaper, Daemonic Icon, Instrument of Chaos
Tried this list against NuMarines several times. In one game, he wiped out most of my army before deep strikers arrived. In another game, he used Drop Pods to deny deep strike, neutralizing the Bloodletters and ensuring the Obliterators only had poor targets.
Black Legion Gunline - Works
Spoiler:
++ Battalion Detachment (Black Legion) ++
+ HQ +
Abaddon the Despoiler: Warlord
Daemon Prince with Wings: Diabolic Strength, Malefic talon, Wings
. Slaanesh
Sorcerer: Bolt pistol, Force sword, Mark of Tzeentch, Prescience, Warptime
+ Troops +
Chaos Cultists: No Chaos Mark
. 12x Chaos Cultist w/ Autogun
. Cultist Champion: Autogun
Chaos Cultists: No Chaos Mark
. 12x Chaos Cultist w/ Autogun
. Cultist Champion: Autogun
Chaos Space Marines: Mark of Slaanesh
. Aspiring Champion: Boltgun, Chainaxe
. 4x Marine w/ Boltgun
. Marine w/ heavy weapon: Lascannon
Chaos Space Marines: Mark of Slaanesh
. Aspiring Champion: Boltgun, Plasma pistol
. 4x Marine w/ Boltgun
. Marine w/ heavy weapon: Lascannon
Chaos Space Marines: Mark of Slaanesh
. Aspiring Champion: Boltgun, Plasma pistol
. 4x Marine w/ Boltgun
. Marine w/ heavy weapon: Lascannon
Havocs: Mark of Slaanesh
. Aspiring Champion: Chainsword, Flamer
. 4x Havoc w/ lascannon: 4x Lascannon
Havocs: Mark of Slaanesh
. Aspiring Champion: Chainsword, Flamer
. 4x Havoc w/ lascannon: 4x Lascannon
Havocs: Mark of Slaanesh
. Aspiring Champion: Chainsword, Flamer
. 4x Havoc w/ lascannon: 4x Lascannon
This list works because it has 27 lascannons with rerolls to hit. It's the same gunline I have played most of 8th edition, but with more lascannons. Most of the army deploys on my table edge within Abaddon's reroll bubble. The Cultists screen everything else and Abaddon, the DP and the Sorcerer are 'beatsticks' to deal with anything that gets close.
It can put down Repulsors, Thunderfire Cannons, Infiltrators, etc immediately and outranges Blot Rifles, forcing Intercessors and other Marines to get in close to fight. In later turns, the lascannons snipe enemy units from a distance.
Black Legion Gunline - Scorpius - Works
Spoiler:
++ Spearhead Detachment (Black Legion) ++
+ HQ +
Sorcerer with Jump Pack: 2. Flames of Spite, Chainsword, Council of Traitors, Diabolic Strength, Force sword, Ghorisvex's Teeth, No Chaos Mark, Prescience
Daemon Prince with Wings: Diabolic Strength, Malefic talon, Wings
. Slaanesh
+ Troops +
Chaos Space Marines: Mark of Slaanesh
. Aspiring Champion: Boltgun, Chainaxe
. 3x Marine w/ Boltgun
. Marine w/ heavy weapon: Lascannon
Chaos Space Marines: Mark of Slaanesh
. Aspiring Champion: Boltgun, Plasma pistol
. 3x Marine w/ Boltgun
. Marine w/ heavy weapon: Lascannon
Chaos Space Marines: Mark of Slaanesh
. Aspiring Champion: Boltgun, Plasma pistol
. 3x Marine w/ Boltgun
. Marine w/ heavy weapon: Lascannon
+ Heavy Support +
Havocs: Mark of Slaanesh
. Aspiring Champion: Chainsword, Flamer
. 4x Havoc w/ lascannon: 4x Lascannon
Havocs: Mark of Slaanesh
. Aspiring Champion: Chainsword, Flamer
. 4x Havoc w/ lascannon: 4x Lascannon
Havocs: Mark of Slaanesh
. Aspiring Champion: Chainsword, Flamer
. 4x Havoc w/ lascannon: 4x Lascannon
This list is a variant of the Black Legion gunline. It works because it has 18D3 multi-launcher shots each turn with indirect fire and rerolls from Abaddon.
There are enough lascannons to destroy a couple Repulsors turn one, but what really matters is the missiles. On average, the multilaunchers are doing enough damage to kill about 15 Primaris per turn. Since your opponent can't draw line of site to them, he has to march up the board a couple turns with nothing to shoot at.
Also, this list features a Chainsorcerer. Starting to understand why this guy matters, he's not what anyone expects from a Sorcerer. He's not the Warlord but gets Flames of Spite through Council of Traitors. No one expects any Sorcerer to go full close combat and dish tons of mortal wounds, which can really screw up an opponent's attack.
Daemon Primarchs - Playtesting, Seems to Work
Spoiler:
++ Supreme Command Detachment (Thousand Sons) ++
+ HQ +
Ahriman: Glamour of Tzeentch, Tzeentch's Firestorm, Warptime
Daemon Prince of Tzeentch: Gaze of Fate, Infernal Gaze, Malefic talon, Wings
Sorcerer on Disc of Tzeentch: Combi-bolter, Death Hex, Diabolic Strength, Force stave, Helm of the Third Eye
+ Elites +
Hellforged Sicaran: Combi-bolter, Heavy bolter, Tzeentch
. Lascannons: 2x Lascannon
+ Lord of War +
Magnus the Red: Bolt of Change, Doombolt, Infernal Gateway, Prescience, Warlord
++ Battalion Detachment (Nurgle Daemons) ++
+ HQ +
Poxbringer: Virulent Blessing
Poxbringer: Miasma of Pestilence
+ Troops +
Nurglings: 3x Nurgling Swarms
Nurglings: 3x Nurgling Swarms
Plaguebearers: Daemonic Icon, Instrument of Chaos, 21x Plaguebearer, Plagueridden
Mortarion: 1. Miasma of Pestilence, 4. Blades of Putrefaction, 6. Curse of the Leper
I've been playtesting this list and it seems to work. The reason it works is because Magnus and Mortarion can get into close combat before the Tactical Doctrine kicks in, putting your opponent off-balance and giving you opportunities to disrupt his forces.
In 2 games versus NuMarines, I've found the Sicaran gets ignored until at least one Primarch is dead. That's kind of a big deal, your opponent will have to deal with long-distance shooting while dealing with the Nurgle infantry.
vaklor4 wrote: I play RC the CP is nice and RC is one of the better legion choices, but Cultists in general are just in a bad spot atm, a stark contrast to their troop slot domination the last 2 years
Do big blocks of marines actually work? In my experience they suffer severe morale issues, forcing me to pay the CP to either regen or at least become morale immune right off the bat.
Thank you for the lists!
Maybe that many las cannons is too much but I see where you are getting at, if we spam havocs with las and autocannons, we can play on the range, having the oblits in AiP gives us a lot of protection first turn, I'm sure going full elite is the best way.
Having cultists as troops and then only havocs, plague marines obli and maybe possessed means we have an elite easy to hide and that requires the same weapons to be killed, with R5 and or 5++ means we are somehow resistent to plasma, bolters and still a waste for las cannons.
vaklor4 wrote: Do big blocks of marines actually work? In my experience they suffer severe morale issues, forcing me to pay the CP to either regen or at least become morale immune right off the bat.
Only if you play Word Bearers. The Community tactica article told me they are incredibly resistant to the effects of morale
vaklor4 wrote: Do big blocks of marines actually work? In my experience they suffer severe morale issues, forcing me to pay the CP to either regen or at least become morale immune right off the bat.
Only if you play Word Bearers. The Community tactica article told me they are incredibly resistant to the effects of morale
Quite right!
-10 to your leadership test - but you get to reroll! Forge the narrative
vaklor4 wrote: Do big blocks of marines actually work? In my experience they suffer severe morale issues, forcing me to pay the CP to either regen or at least become morale immune right off the bat.
Depends on how big.
Weapons max out at 10, so no reason to go bigger.
Also with their recycling that is an ok move.
That said it might work against the nu marines via annoyment.
However the ap -1 bolter doctrine has atleast for my list put an end.
vaklor4 wrote: Do big blocks of marines actually work? In my experience they suffer severe morale issues, forcing me to pay the CP to either regen or at least become morale immune right off the bat.
Only if you play Word Bearers. The Community tactica article told me they are incredibly resistant to the effects of morale
Quite right!
-10 to your leadership test - but you get to reroll! Forge the narrative
Most resistent are those with the automorale stratagem, ergo the RC, because so much cp.
Yeah in my experience cultists are all but worthless against Nu-marines due to the high volume of fire guns and ability to basically always have enough AP to negate their saves. Only success ive found is by giving my cultists a 5++, either by noctolith crown, tzeentch psyker or dark apostle.
I finally got the rest of the Dark Vengeance CSM, and I think that I'm going to organize four of them and the Aspiring Champion model into a Chosen unit (though I might later have the one with the rhino helmet be a Chaos Lord instead). That one will be armed with a bolt pistol and powerfist (I can always let him use the boltgun instead that he's carrying, if points allow for it). The one with the power axe will also be armed with a bolt pistol (same deal with his boltgun strapped to the back), as will the Marine with the power maul. The one with two lightning claws will be the Champion. I'm still debating about whether to have the two Marines just armed with boltguns to also be Chosen or just be regular CSM.
All that being said, the Chosen themselves don't strike me as that much more powerful than normal CSM, so I might end up having the ones with melee weapons end up being lords/sorcerers/CSM champions. Are Chosen worth the points?
ArcaneHorror wrote: I finally got the rest of the Dark Vengeance CSM, and I think that I'm going to organize four of them and the Aspiring Champion model into a Chosen unit (though I might later have the one with the rhino helmet be a Chaos Lord instead). That one will be armed with a bolt pistol and powerfist (I can always let him use the boltgun instead that he's carrying, if points allow for it). The one with the power axe will also be armed with a bolt pistol (same deal with his boltgun strapped to the back), as will the Marine with the power maul. The one with two lightning claws will be the Champion. I'm still debating about whether to have the two Marines just armed with boltguns to also be Chosen or just be regular CSM.
All that being said, the Chosen themselves don't strike me as that much more powerful than normal CSM, so I might end up having the ones with melee weapons end up being lords/sorcerers/CSM champions. Are Chosen worth the points?
I'm one of the few people that thinks they are. I've done squads of 6 with all Combi-Bolters and a Chaincannon, popping out of a Termite. It has been pretty excellent, and I've stuck Greater Possessed as just Characters to run and charge as a distraction as they're cheap enough to do that.
Optimized Chosen are solid for sure. If someone who gives a gak puts their hand up next time we get updatee they should design around Chosen being our baseline choice.
(Also rumor has it we're still gonna get gak on during this Psychic Awakening nonsense. No army wide traits etc)
Eldarain wrote: If someone who gives a gak puts their hand up next time we get updatee they should design around Chosen being our baseline choice.
This is what I've been saying like a broken record. Let the base Vanilla codex handle renegades. A CSM codex should be around the Legions.
that or put out a index Astartes article in whtie dwarf that provides rules for chaos renegade warbands that hybridizes codex marines and codex chaos space marines.
Eldarain wrote: If someone who gives a gak puts their hand up next time we get updatee they should design around Chosen being our baseline choice.
This is what I've been saying like a broken record. Let the base Vanilla codex handle renegades. A CSM codex should be around the Legions.
that or put out a index Astartes article in whtie dwarf that provides rules for chaos renegade warbands that hybridizes codex marines and codex chaos space marines.
Online. Not white dwarf.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
ArcaneHorror wrote: I finally got the rest of the Dark Vengeance CSM, and I think that I'm going to organize four of them and the Aspiring Champion model into a Chosen unit (though I might later have the one with the rhino helmet be a Chaos Lord instead). That one will be armed with a bolt pistol and powerfist (I can always let him use the boltgun instead that he's carrying, if points allow for it). The one with the power axe will also be armed with a bolt pistol (same deal with his boltgun strapped to the back), as will the Marine with the power maul. The one with two lightning claws will be the Champion. I'm still debating about whether to have the two Marines just armed with boltguns to also be Chosen or just be regular CSM.
All that being said, the Chosen themselves don't strike me as that much more powerful than normal CSM, so I might end up having the ones with melee weapons end up being lords/sorcerers/CSM champions. Are Chosen worth the points?
1ppm for 1 attack and more equipment and i believe a bit morale.
Tbh. if they were troops they'd be more liked i rekon. As elites they are kinda questionable.
I do like my CB squad.
grouchoben wrote: CSM would go extinct if Chosen were in the troop slot. Maybe that's a good thing.
It would do more to differentiate the army rather than just being "Spiky Marines who lose stuff".
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Bharring wrote: Wouldn't making Chosen troops do a better job of allowing pure-VOTL Legions, Legions who've recruited since, and renegades all in one book?
ideally, Renegades could just be handled in the base Loyalist Scum codex with a page dedicated on how to switch around your Keywords. They would lose the main special units their Chapter gets (so no Khan on bike or Death Company) and then get a few different units, which I'm thinking Possessed and Spawn, both of which can represent either different levels of mutation or corruption. I hadn't decided a third unit though. I was originally thinking Warp Talons but that would be boring.
grouchoben wrote: CSM would go extinct if Chosen were in the troop slot. Maybe that's a good thing.
It would do more to differentiate the army rather than just being "Spiky Marines who lose stuff".
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Bharring wrote: Wouldn't making Chosen troops do a better job of allowing pure-VOTL Legions, Legions who've recruited since, and renegades all in one book?
ideally, Renegades could just be handled in the base Loyalist Scum codex with a page dedicated on how to switch around your Keywords. They would lose the main special units their Chapter gets (so no Khan on bike or Death Company) and then get a few different units, which I'm thinking Possessed and Spawn, both of which can represent either different levels of mutation or corruption. I hadn't decided a third unit though. I was originally thinking Warp Talons but that would be boring.
Couldn't do it without Sorcerers.
Would need Marks and Gifts.
Would need Spawn and probably DP.
Probably want Possessed, Warp Talons
Should have Mutas and Oblits
Should have more chaosy relics, CTs, Warlord Traits and Stratagems
Could use some form of cultist, now that they're not Loyalists anymore
Should be less restricted by Codex Astartes, so Marine squads in larger sizes and double specials might be a thing
Granted, running Loyalist counts-as works for some Renegades. And the CSM book does unreasonably restrict other options (especially now that CSM lost their Devastators with the new Havok rules). But that's a lot of material to reprint in the Loyalist book just to expel renegades from the CSM book.
grouchoben wrote: CSM would go extinct if Chosen were in the troop slot. Maybe that's a good thing.
It would do more to differentiate the army rather than just being "Spiky Marines who lose stuff".
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Bharring wrote: Wouldn't making Chosen troops do a better job of allowing pure-VOTL Legions, Legions who've recruited since, and renegades all in one book?
ideally, Renegades could just be handled in the base Loyalist Scum codex with a page dedicated on how to switch around your Keywords. They would lose the main special units their Chapter gets (so no Khan on bike or Death Company) and then get a few different units, which I'm thinking Possessed and Spawn, both of which can represent either different levels of mutation or corruption. I hadn't decided a third unit though. I was originally thinking Warp Talons but that would be boring.
Couldn't do it without Sorcerers.
Would need Marks and Gifts.
Would need Spawn and probably DP.
Probably want Possessed, Warp Talons
Should have Mutas and Oblits
Should have more chaosy relics, CTs, Warlord Traits and Stratagems
Could use some form of cultist, now that they're not Loyalists anymore
Should be less restricted by Codex Astartes, so Marine squads in larger sizes and double specials might be a thing
Granted, running Loyalist counts-as works for some Renegades. And the CSM book does unreasonably restrict other options (especially now that CSM lost their Devastators with the new Havok rules). But that's a lot of material to reprint in the Loyalist book just to expel renegades from the CSM book.
Sorcerers are Librarians. There is functionally no difference and to try and deny that is pure silliness.
Mutilators and Obliterators need a singular condensed profile, and it isn't one Renegades need as they'll have Centurion access (which also need a condensed profile).
I've said before everyone only gets 3 unique Relics, Strats, and Warlord traits. Renegades would be treated the same so to not take up a lot of space.
Marks are handled in the keyword section as I've already said.
I've already gone over why the Tactical Marine profile doesn't work and a rework of that is what they would get access to.
In fact, most of what you describe reminds of the Tyrant list for the Badab War but with access to Chaos stuff. That's a whole different ballgame but one that isn't terribly needed.
grouchoben wrote: CSM would go extinct if Chosen were in the troop slot. Maybe that's a good thing.
It would do more to differentiate the army rather than just being "Spiky Marines who lose stuff".
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Bharring wrote: Wouldn't making Chosen troops do a better job of allowing pure-VOTL Legions, Legions who've recruited since, and renegades all in one book?
ideally, Renegades could just be handled in the base Loyalist Scum codex with a page dedicated on how to switch around your Keywords. They would lose the main special units their Chapter gets (so no Khan on bike or Death Company) and then get a few different units, which I'm thinking Possessed and Spawn, both of which can represent either different levels of mutation or corruption. I hadn't decided a third unit though. I was originally thinking Warp Talons but that would be boring.
Couldn't do it without Sorcerers.
Would need Marks and Gifts.
Would need Spawn and probably DP.
Probably want Possessed, Warp Talons
Should have Mutas and Oblits
Should have more chaosy relics, CTs, Warlord Traits and Stratagems
Could use some form of cultist, now that they're not Loyalists anymore
Should be less restricted by Codex Astartes, so Marine squads in larger sizes and double specials might be a thing
Granted, running Loyalist counts-as works for some Renegades. And the CSM book does unreasonably restrict other options (especially now that CSM lost their Devastators with the new Havok rules). But that's a lot of material to reprint in the Loyalist book just to expel renegades from the CSM book.
Sorcerers are Librarians. There is functionally no difference and to try and deny that is pure silliness.
I don't recall any rules for Librarians casting Nurgle powers? I mean, you can counts-as here and just kinda wish-wash it away - much like how you can "counts as" your T'au as Imperial Guard or whatever. But there are rules specific to "Librarians" who've gone Chaos - and that's Sorcerer.
Mutilators and Obliterators need a singular condensed profile, and it isn't one Renegades need as they'll have Centurion access (which also need a condensed profile).
So more "You can just pretend they're renegades"? How is that different from "You can use ChainCannons as counts-as Plasma Guns"?
I've said before everyone only gets 3 unique Relics, Strats, and Warlord traits. Renegades would be treated the same so to not take up a lot of space.
Marks are handled in the keyword section as I've already said.
I've already gone over why the Tactical Marine profile doesn't work and a rework of that is what they would get access to.
In other words, it'll all work great with just a few changes, once you completely rewrite both books?
But if you're fully rewriting both books, since Renegades have more in common with other Traitors than Loyalists, why would you add more bloat to the Loyalist book instead of lest bloat to the Chaos book?
In fact, most of what you describe reminds of the Tyrant list for the Badab War but with access to Chaos stuff. That's a whole different ballgame but one that isn't terribly needed.
In other words, "Renegades can use the Loyalist book, because renegades that can't are a different list. There's no value in Renegades that have conspired with Chaos in any way, so we'll drop that - and anyone's army that played that way from the game."?
grouchoben wrote: CSM would go extinct if Chosen were in the troop slot. Maybe that's a good thing.
It would do more to differentiate the army rather than just being "Spiky Marines who lose stuff".
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Bharring wrote: Wouldn't making Chosen troops do a better job of allowing pure-VOTL Legions, Legions who've recruited since, and renegades all in one book?
ideally, Renegades could just be handled in the base Loyalist Scum codex with a page dedicated on how to switch around your Keywords. They would lose the main special units their Chapter gets (so no Khan on bike or Death Company) and then get a few different units, which I'm thinking Possessed and Spawn, both of which can represent either different levels of mutation or corruption. I hadn't decided a third unit though. I was originally thinking Warp Talons but that would be boring.
Couldn't do it without Sorcerers.
Would need Marks and Gifts.
Would need Spawn and probably DP.
Probably want Possessed, Warp Talons
Should have Mutas and Oblits
Should have more chaosy relics, CTs, Warlord Traits and Stratagems
Could use some form of cultist, now that they're not Loyalists anymore
Should be less restricted by Codex Astartes, so Marine squads in larger sizes and double specials might be a thing
Granted, running Loyalist counts-as works for some Renegades. And the CSM book does unreasonably restrict other options (especially now that CSM lost their Devastators with the new Havok rules). But that's a lot of material to reprint in the Loyalist book just to expel renegades from the CSM book.
Sorcerers are Librarians. There is functionally no difference and to try and deny that is pure silliness.
I don't recall any rules for Librarians casting Nurgle powers? I mean, you can counts-as here and just kinda wish-wash it away - much like how you can "counts as" your T'au as Imperial Guard or whatever. But there are rules specific to "Librarians" who've gone Chaos - and that's Sorcerer.
Mutilators and Obliterators need a singular condensed profile, and it isn't one Renegades need as they'll have Centurion access (which also need a condensed profile).
So more "You can just pretend they're renegades"? How is that different from "You can use ChainCannons as counts-as Plasma Guns"?
I've said before everyone only gets 3 unique Relics, Strats, and Warlord traits. Renegades would be treated the same so to not take up a lot of space.
Marks are handled in the keyword section as I've already said.
I've already gone over why the Tactical Marine profile doesn't work and a rework of that is what they would get access to.
In other words, it'll all work great with just a few changes, once you completely rewrite both books?
But if you're fully rewriting both books, since Renegades have more in common with other Traitors than Loyalists, why would you add more bloat to the Loyalist book instead of lest bloat to the Chaos book?
In fact, most of what you describe reminds of the Tyrant list for the Badab War but with access to Chaos stuff. That's a whole different ballgame but one that isn't terribly needed.
In other words, "Renegades can use the Loyalist book, because renegades that can't are a different list. There's no value in Renegades that have conspired with Chaos in any way, so we'll drop that - and anyone's army that played that way from the game."?
1. Seeing as they're really just Renegades and not fully in a Legion warband committed to a God, I've got no issue not casting Nurgle Powers. Keywords can still let you be affected by rules of course but that's really all that's needed. It isn't like you were using THAT many powers from the Nurgle tree for your Purged and Red Corsairs; you're only trying to power yourself through the couple of good ones. Ergo there's no sympathy from me you don't get Miasma of Pestilence anymore.
2. Because Centurions and the -Ators fulfill the same roles? You don't NEED those -Ator profiles because Centurions are doing the same thing for all intents and purposes. Not like anyone would complain because Centurions are pretty cool again anyway.
3. It doesn't need a full rewrite. The base has some good stuff there and just needs some refining.
And no, Renegades would have more in common with Loyalist Scum than Legions in terms of organization and how they fight and what equipment they would have access to. Just because they hear voices in their head doesn't mean they're now fighting like Death Guard or 1000 Sons or Word Bearers.
grouchoben wrote: CSM would go extinct if Chosen were in the troop slot. Maybe that's a good thing.
It would do more to differentiate the army rather than just being "Spiky Marines who lose stuff".
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Bharring wrote: Wouldn't making Chosen troops do a better job of allowing pure-VOTL Legions, Legions who've recruited since, and renegades all in one book?
ideally, Renegades could just be handled in the base Loyalist Scum codex with a page dedicated on how to switch around your Keywords. They would lose the main special units their Chapter gets (so no Khan on bike or Death Company) and then get a few different units, which I'm thinking Possessed and Spawn, both of which can represent either different levels of mutation or corruption. I hadn't decided a third unit though. I was originally thinking Warp Talons but that would be boring.
Couldn't do it without Sorcerers.
Would need Marks and Gifts.
Would need Spawn and probably DP.
Probably want Possessed, Warp Talons
Should have Mutas and Oblits
Should have more chaosy relics, CTs, Warlord Traits and Stratagems
Could use some form of cultist, now that they're not Loyalists anymore
Should be less restricted by Codex Astartes, so Marine squads in larger sizes and double specials might be a thing
Granted, running Loyalist counts-as works for some Renegades. And the CSM book does unreasonably restrict other options (especially now that CSM lost their Devastators with the new Havok rules). But that's a lot of material to reprint in the Loyalist book just to expel renegades from the CSM book.
Sorcerers are Librarians. There is functionally no difference and to try and deny that is pure silliness.
I don't recall any rules for Librarians casting Nurgle powers? I mean, you can counts-as here and just kinda wish-wash it away - much like how you can "counts as" your T'au as Imperial Guard or whatever. But there are rules specific to "Librarians" who've gone Chaos - and that's Sorcerer.
Mutilators and Obliterators need a singular condensed profile, and it isn't one Renegades need as they'll have Centurion access (which also need a condensed profile).
So more "You can just pretend they're renegades"? How is that different from "You can use ChainCannons as counts-as Plasma Guns"?
I've said before everyone only gets 3 unique Relics, Strats, and Warlord traits. Renegades would be treated the same so to not take up a lot of space.
Marks are handled in the keyword section as I've already said.
I've already gone over why the Tactical Marine profile doesn't work and a rework of that is what they would get access to.
In other words, it'll all work great with just a few changes, once you completely rewrite both books?
But if you're fully rewriting both books, since Renegades have more in common with other Traitors than Loyalists, why would you add more bloat to the Loyalist book instead of lest bloat to the Chaos book?
In fact, most of what you describe reminds of the Tyrant list for the Badab War but with access to Chaos stuff. That's a whole different ballgame but one that isn't terribly needed.
In other words, "Renegades can use the Loyalist book, because renegades that can't are a different list. There's no value in Renegades that have conspired with Chaos in any way, so we'll drop that - and anyone's army that played that way from the game."?
1. Seeing as they're really just Renegades and not fully in a Legion warband committed to a God, I've got no issue not casting Nurgle Powers. Keywords can still let you be affected by rules of course but that's really all that's needed.
It's fine that you have no issue with someone's Nurgle sorcerer not using Nurgle powers. But that's very different from having issue with someone's Nurgle sorcerer using Nurgle powers. The first is accepting an alternate way someone might want to play. The second is rejecting the primary way, the rules-supported way, the fluffy way, the most obvious way that someone would play it. The first is fine, but you're doing the second, which is not.
It isn't like you were using THAT many powers from the Nurgle tree for your Purged and Red Corsairs; you're only trying to power yourself through the couple of good ones. Ergo there's no sympathy from me you don't get Miasma of Pestilence anymore.
So your argument is that anyone doing something is doing it for powergaming reasons, and therefore it should be disallowed, because powergaming reasons aren't valid. That's remarkably reductive, insulting, simplistic, and meaningless, all at the same time.
2. Because Centurions and the -Ators fulfill the same roles? You don't NEED those -Ator profiles because Centurions are doing the same thing for all intents and purposes. Not like anyone would complain because Centurions are pretty cool again anyway.
So non-Chosen marines must be dropped from the CSM codex because they don't represent Legion marines well enough, but a Cent and a -Ator is identical?
3. It doesn't need a full rewrite. The base has some good stuff there and just needs some refining.
If you're changing several entries, adding a couple entries, adding a few CTs, reworking all Traits, changing all Powers, redoing all the stratagems, and soforth, how is that not a rewrite?
And no, Renegades would have more in common with Loyalist Scum than Legions in terms of organization and how they fight and what equipment they would have access to. Just because they hear voices in their head doesn't mean they're now fighting like Death Guard or 1000 Sons or Word Bearers.
"Just because they hear voices in their head" - in other words, working with/for Chaos and abandonment of IoM - *DOES* mean, among other things:
-No requirement to respect the Chapter org chart
-May now become demons
-May now work with demons
-Librarians may now *openly* serve and channel Nurgle/Tzeench/Slanesh
-Posessed vehicles/wargear are now viable
-Demon Engines are now viable
-May now use non-codex-compliant loadouts (double Plas or 20-man squads, for instance)
-May now use non-codex-compliant forces (Cultists, for instance)
-Can now openly serve the Gods (marks)
-Can now openly revel in dark gifts (mutations)
As for "fighting like Death Guard or 1000 Sons", aside from the above list, Death Guard are a lot more like Loyalists than they are like 1000 Sons (and vice-versa). Death Guard and 1000 Sons are very different forces. Same comparisions could be made with Alpha Legion.
I’m broadly sympathetic with the notion of Renegades having more in common with AA than they do with Legions, but that would mean the Renegades rules would only cover Chapters that went rogue recently enough to have not yet caught Obliterator-itis or had their armouries blessed by gifts from the Warmaster or had anyone hulk out into a Possessed, all of which sucks for Renegade collectors who’ve already got daemonic units (that one BB are obsessed with and Purge has brilliant synergy with), and it would instate Renegade Primaris, which GW’s inertia seems to be quite a way away from given the recent release wave of HA, and it would also sort of necessitate a major rebuilding of two Codexes that only just got new editions
Also, none of this is a tactical discussion. So what do we reckon, if I’m going to try a Tzeentch Daemonkin list should I get a Changeling to give a Soulforged Pack 6+++, and should I try a battalion of brimstones and summon the Pink Horrors to avoid them having to get shot or advance before they get to throw fireballs
6+++, sounds fun.
But, what daemonkin will you play? Possesed?
I'd imagine that these would profit decently from that.
Add a MoP in and a regular sorcerer.
What legion /trait i'd say go for AL, if anything that would atleast generate some needed durability.
Maybee consider a da, with the cultist formation for 1+ praying.
DarklyDreaming wrote: I never fought IH, but I have beaten NuMarines multiple times. The best counters for them are 2 kind of lists:
1. daemon engines lists, with many vehicls, like 4/5 Engines and 2 rhinos, the reason because invulnerables are the only thing that still works against them and all the attacks have multiple damage, having no screen, a first turn charge with warp time can hurt a lot and castles are somehow vulnerable to exploding vehicles. Ofc going first is pivotal.
2. Alpha legion infantry gunlines. With the itc style we can hide stuff avoiding a first turn tabling, playing infantry we can make the ubiquitous repulsors/executioners less effective with no vehicles to one shot.
The most important thing of all are Obliterators, facing big expensive units we are sure they will repay themselves, when they come down they eliminate all that threats them (they can kill 2 replusors with a bit of luck) and then is just easy win, since troop shooting can't kill them.
@techsoldaten tell us about your Black Legion gunline
I'll do you one better. There's 5 lists I've used in 10 games versus NuMarines. Here are 4 of them, I'll talk a little about why each one does or does not work.
Bloodletter Bomb - Does Not Work
Spoiler:
++ Battalion Detachment - Black Legion ++
+ HQ +
Chaos Lord: 2. Flames of Spite, 2x Chainsword, Mark of Khorne, Warlord
Dark Apostle: Mark of Slaanesh
Sorcerer with Jump Pack: Bolt pistol, Force sword, No Chaos Mark, Prescience, Warptime
+ Troops +
Chaos Cultists: Mark of Slaanesh
. 13x Chaos Cultist w/ Autogun
. Cultist Champion: Autogun
4x Chaos Cultists: Mark of Slaanesh
. 14x Chaos Cultist w/ Autogun
. Cultist Champion: Autogun
Havocs: No Chaos Mark
. Aspiring Champion: Chainsword, Flamer
. 4x Havoc w/ lascannon: 4x Lascannon
Obliterators: Mark of Slaanesh, 3x Obliterator
++ Patrol Detachment (Khorne Daemons) ++
+ HQ +
Bloodmaster
+ Troops +
Bloodletters: 29x Bloodletter, Bloodreaper, Daemonic Icon, Instrument of Chaos
Bloodletters: 29x Bloodletter, Bloodreaper, Daemonic Icon, Instrument of Chaos
Tried this list against NuMarines several times. In one game, he wiped out most of my army before deep strikers arrived. In another game, he used Drop Pods to deny deep strike, neutralizing the Bloodletters and ensuring the Obliterators only had poor targets.
Black Legion Gunline - Works
Spoiler:
++ Battalion Detachment (Black Legion) ++
+ HQ +
Abaddon the Despoiler: Warlord
Daemon Prince with Wings: Diabolic Strength, Malefic talon, Wings
. Slaanesh
Sorcerer: Bolt pistol, Force sword, Mark of Tzeentch, Prescience, Warptime
+ Troops +
Chaos Cultists: No Chaos Mark
. 12x Chaos Cultist w/ Autogun
. Cultist Champion: Autogun
Chaos Cultists: No Chaos Mark
. 12x Chaos Cultist w/ Autogun
. Cultist Champion: Autogun
Chaos Space Marines: Mark of Slaanesh
. Aspiring Champion: Boltgun, Chainaxe
. 4x Marine w/ Boltgun
. Marine w/ heavy weapon: Lascannon
Chaos Space Marines: Mark of Slaanesh
. Aspiring Champion: Boltgun, Plasma pistol
. 4x Marine w/ Boltgun
. Marine w/ heavy weapon: Lascannon
Chaos Space Marines: Mark of Slaanesh
. Aspiring Champion: Boltgun, Plasma pistol
. 4x Marine w/ Boltgun
. Marine w/ heavy weapon: Lascannon
Havocs: Mark of Slaanesh
. Aspiring Champion: Chainsword, Flamer
. 4x Havoc w/ lascannon: 4x Lascannon
Havocs: Mark of Slaanesh
. Aspiring Champion: Chainsword, Flamer
. 4x Havoc w/ lascannon: 4x Lascannon
Havocs: Mark of Slaanesh
. Aspiring Champion: Chainsword, Flamer
. 4x Havoc w/ lascannon: 4x Lascannon
This list works because it has 27 lascannons with rerolls to hit. It's the same gunline I have played most of 8th edition, but with more lascannons. Most of the army deploys on my table edge within Abaddon's reroll bubble. The Cultists screen everything else and Abaddon, the DP and the Sorcerer are 'beatsticks' to deal with anything that gets close.
It can put down Repulsors, Thunderfire Cannons, Infiltrators, etc immediately and outranges Blot Rifles, forcing Intercessors and other Marines to get in close to fight. In later turns, the lascannons snipe enemy units from a distance.
Black Legion Gunline - Scorpius - Works
Spoiler:
++ Spearhead Detachment (Black Legion) ++
+ HQ +
Sorcerer with Jump Pack: 2. Flames of Spite, Chainsword, Council of Traitors, Diabolic Strength, Force sword, Ghorisvex's Teeth, No Chaos Mark, Prescience
Daemon Prince with Wings: Diabolic Strength, Malefic talon, Wings
. Slaanesh
+ Troops +
Chaos Space Marines: Mark of Slaanesh
. Aspiring Champion: Boltgun, Chainaxe
. 3x Marine w/ Boltgun
. Marine w/ heavy weapon: Lascannon
Chaos Space Marines: Mark of Slaanesh
. Aspiring Champion: Boltgun, Plasma pistol
. 3x Marine w/ Boltgun
. Marine w/ heavy weapon: Lascannon
Chaos Space Marines: Mark of Slaanesh
. Aspiring Champion: Boltgun, Plasma pistol
. 3x Marine w/ Boltgun
. Marine w/ heavy weapon: Lascannon
+ Heavy Support +
Havocs: Mark of Slaanesh
. Aspiring Champion: Chainsword, Flamer
. 4x Havoc w/ lascannon: 4x Lascannon
Havocs: Mark of Slaanesh
. Aspiring Champion: Chainsword, Flamer
. 4x Havoc w/ lascannon: 4x Lascannon
Havocs: Mark of Slaanesh
. Aspiring Champion: Chainsword, Flamer
. 4x Havoc w/ lascannon: 4x Lascannon
This list is a variant of the Black Legion gunline. It works because it has 18D3 multi-launcher shots each turn with indirect fire and rerolls from Abaddon.
There are enough lascannons to destroy a couple Repulsors turn one, but what really matters is the missiles. On average, the multilaunchers are doing enough damage to kill about 15 Primaris per turn. Since your opponent can't draw line of site to them, he has to march up the board a couple turns with nothing to shoot at.
Also, this list features a Chainsorcerer. Starting to understand why this guy matters, he's not what anyone expects from a Sorcerer. He's not the Warlord but gets Flames of Spite through Council of Traitors. No one expects any Sorcerer to go full close combat and dish tons of mortal wounds, which can really screw up an opponent's attack.
Daemon Primarchs - Playtesting, Seems to Work
Spoiler:
++ Supreme Command Detachment (Thousand Sons) ++
+ HQ +
Ahriman: Glamour of Tzeentch, Tzeentch's Firestorm, Warptime
Daemon Prince of Tzeentch: Gaze of Fate, Infernal Gaze, Malefic talon, Wings
Sorcerer on Disc of Tzeentch: Combi-bolter, Death Hex, Diabolic Strength, Force stave, Helm of the Third Eye
+ Elites +
Hellforged Sicaran: Combi-bolter, Heavy bolter, Tzeentch
. Lascannons: 2x Lascannon
+ Lord of War +
Magnus the Red: Bolt of Change, Doombolt, Infernal Gateway, Prescience, Warlord
++ Battalion Detachment (Nurgle Daemons) ++
+ HQ +
Poxbringer: Virulent Blessing
Poxbringer: Miasma of Pestilence
+ Troops +
Nurglings: 3x Nurgling Swarms
Nurglings: 3x Nurgling Swarms
Plaguebearers: Daemonic Icon, Instrument of Chaos, 21x Plaguebearer, Plagueridden
Mortarion: 1. Miasma of Pestilence, 4. Blades of Putrefaction, 6. Curse of the Leper
I've been playtesting this list and it seems to work. The reason it works is because Magnus and Mortarion can get into close combat before the Tactical Doctrine kicks in, putting your opponent off-balance and giving you opportunities to disrupt his forces.
In 2 games versus NuMarines, I've found the Sicaran gets ignored until at least one Primarch is dead. That's kind of a big deal, your opponent will have to deal with long-distance shooting while dealing with the Nurgle infantry.
I always love your army lists. Techsoldaten. You are one of the posters that keep my hopes alive that CSM and black legion can still do something in the current encivronment. However, I do have to ask though. How do you even manage to keep your lascannon Havocs alive? Now Havocs are limited to 5 man. Any dedicated shooting would obliterate them. They are just 5 models with 1W each and no invul save.
vaklor4 wrote: So I played vs Iron Hands for the first time, and just got completely dabbed on, and he didnt even bring an overly cheesy list. What would be good counter units to iron hands gunline/vehicle heavy lists? I found that he was easily able to bring both anti infantry and anti armor in spades, so I dont think leaning heavy into one or the other would work. Would swapping to my demon army work better? Nurgle might stand a chance and khorne could blow a chunk in his army from a letter bomb.
Hmm, will try out a renegades and heretics battalion tommorow.
Mostly because chimera + 2 rogue psyker covens casting warpflux are 2d6 Mortals on a vehicle of your choice.
What if regular CSM got their free chainswords back (so you don't lose the bolter)?
Or "Chosen" became a free upgrade for one unit if you've got a Chaos Lord/some other HQ so that they function like a retinue.
Like "Before deployment, for each Chaos Lord (or maybe any Infantry HQ) in a detachment, choose a unit of Chaos Space Marines from the same detachment. That unit gains the Chosen keyword."
Then the Chosen keyword could gain some buff for being near the HQ (like +1 attack, a LD buff, advance + shoot even if it's rapid fire/heavy, and/or advance + charge).
Or Chosen do just become troops, whether it's one squad per Chaos Lord or just blanket. It still sells CSM kits.
Sounds like wish listing. In any case, I think the problem with CSM currently lies in other areas.
1. We have few weapons that can hit units hiding out of line of sight behind a wall, or within a building. (need to go into forgeworld for that).
2. We have few if any snipers, so we can't do anything to characters hiding behind units which are in turn hiding out of line of sight.
3. We have no good transports except the Rhino and the LR. Unless we go forgeworld again.
4. Currently, SM chapter tactics and their new books are much stronger than even our codex 2.0 and Vigilus Ablaze combined.
5. Demon engines are kind of a trap. We are trying so hard to spend so many other points in support just to make our demon engines "normal" ie, shoot at +3, have a 4++ invul, etc when things like knights come with stock T8, 5++ 3+ BS and just needs 1 CP to become 4++.
6. Our CSM troops now loses by a lot to Primaris, and our cultists loses compared to guardsmen and primaris mow them down super easily anyway.
7. Our characters are expensive, yet can be sniped, and usually, if you want to say fighty, well a smash captain is as fighty as any demon prince and yet comes with a 3++ while most of our characters are lucky to even get 5++ unless we go tzeentch.
8. Our demon primarchs tend to be shot off the board turn 1 because any good list needs to be able to handle Knights army anyway.
The combination of all these means that our opponent can mess with our shooting and our characters, and yet in a dominantly shooty meta, our assault can't get into grips either because of bubblewraps, our own mediocre transports, and due to the sheer destructive firepower of shooting these days.
In short, it seems that we need to dig deep and pull out the cheesiest of the cheese in order for our lists to even have a viable chance. And if both sides have a good understanding of the current 40k environment and tactics, then we generally start off at an inherent disadvantage playing CSM. The most discouraging thing is that once I start to dig for tricks to power up my army list, I end up considering pulling stuff from deathguard, thousand sons, Chaos knights, demons. And after a while, my CSM forces keep getting cut more and more until my final army just has token CSM in it... Its like add one knight, wow, its great, so why not just go with 3... and now we have a chaos knight list instead of a CSM list. Add DG, then end up add even more DG until might as well go full DG. Same with demons, thousand sons. Its kinda sad that there is hardly anything worth keeping in a core CSM list once you start to consider souping in other factions like DG, TS, Demons, Chaos knights.
Eldenfirefly wrote: Sounds like wish listing. In any case, I think the problem with CSM currently lies in other areas.
1. We have few weapons that can hit units hiding out of line of sight behind a wall, or within a building. (need to go into forgeworld for that).
2. We have few if any snipers, so we can't do anything to characters hiding behind units which are in turn hiding out of line of sight.
3. We have no good transports except the Rhino and the LR. Unless we go forgeworld again.
4. Currently, SM chapter tactics and their new books are much stronger than even our codex 2.0 and Vigilus Ablaze combined.
5. Demon engines are kind of a trap. We are trying so hard to spend so many other points in support just to make our demon engines "normal" ie, shoot at +3, have a 4++ invul, etc when things like knights come with stock T8, 5++ 3+ BS and just needs 1 CP to become 4++.
6. Our CSM troops now loses by a lot to Primaris, and our cultists loses compared to guardsmen and primaris mow them down super easily anyway.
7. Our characters are expensive, yet can be sniped, and usually, if you want to say fighty, well a smash captain is as fighty as any demon prince and yet comes with a 3++ while most of our characters are lucky to even get 5++ unless we go tzeentch.
8. Our demon primarchs tend to be shot off the board turn 1 because any good list needs to be able to handle Knights army anyway.
The combination of all these means that our opponent can mess with our shooting and our characters, and yet in a dominantly shooty meta, our assault can't get into grips either because of bubblewraps, our own mediocre transports, and due to the sheer destructive firepower of shooting these days.
In short, it seems that we need to dig deep and pull out the cheesiest of the cheese in order for our lists to even have a viable chance. And if both sides have a good understanding of the current 40k environment and tactics, then we generally start off at an inherent disadvantage playing CSM. The most discouraging thing is that once I start to dig for tricks to power up my army list, I end up considering pulling stuff from deathguard, thousand sons, Chaos knights, demons. And after a while, my CSM forces keep getting cut more and more until my final army just has token CSM in it... Its like add one knight, wow, its great, so why not just go with 3... and now we have a chaos knight list instead of a CSM list. Add DG, then end up add even more DG until might as well go full DG. Same with demons, thousand sons. Its kinda sad that there is hardly anything worth keeping in a core CSM list once you start to consider souping in other factions like DG, TS, Demons, Chaos knights.
A lot of this is very true, if it wasn't for endless Cacophony and FW dreads we'd be fairly screwed for taking on primaris lists.
I'm still taking CSM lists to tournaments (primarily because I don't want to take 100s of daemons to play 3 games a day). But I've had to spam deredeos and lord discordants. Then I choose between host raptorial warp talons and devestation battery oblits/havocs.
But we definately have a lot less viable ways to be competitive!
Daemon Princes have twice the wounds of a Smashcaptain and better T, as well as being a Psyker (unless you're like me and play Khorne :(). There's plenty of issues with Chaos without overdoing it and complaining about one of the most solid HQs in the game.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: Daemon Princes have twice the wounds of a Smashcaptain and better T, as well as being a Psyker (unless you're like me and play Khorne :(). There's plenty of issues with Chaos without overdoing it and complaining about one of the most solid HQs in the game.
Apple and oranges. Besides, CSMDP don't have a 3++, deal way less damage than Smash Captains and have a much larger base.
TL,DR: CSM Daemon princes are trash. Only TS and Daemons ones get used (OK, sometimes Death Guard too).
Anyway, I apologise if I came across as negative. I am usually not like that. I visited the Iron Hands forums and well, some of them face a kind of backlash because when your army is perceived as stupidly op, nobody wants to play you.
And well, its a fun challenge to in a way to try and think of ways to keep playing CSM while still having some sort of viable army. Its not easy, and I am still cracking my head thinking about how.
I got a question, how many of you have tried out a deep striking squad of obliterators and how successful has it been? I did the math and the most point efficient is to deep strike in a terminator sorceror with 3 obliterators. Then you cast prescience and delightful agonies on the Oblits when you deep strike in, and then use let the galaxy burn, endless cacophony, and veterans of the long war. Its 4 CP and 2 psychics and around 500 points, but in return you get 36 shots from the oblits which are at reroll 1s to hit, 2+ base to hit and +1 to wound. And the Oblits then have 5++ FNP to withstand the counter attack that will come after that.
I got three Oblits painted up already. Haven't really used them full out like that yet.
BTW, here are some other solutions that I thought of and tried before but the issue is imperium has far too many answers against us these days.
1. mass psykers, including TS. Imperium spends very little to bring a Calidus assasin and he shuts down psychic in a big way.
2. Melee .. between all the bubble wrap, and the sheer destructive power of shooting these days. This is a challenge these days. And well, like I said earlier, our transport options are limited.
3. Deep strike shenenigans ... again foiled by bubble wrap.
4. Outshoot them... I have tried before, with varied results. Its a shooting meta these days, everyone is prepared for loads of shooting. And lilke I said before, we don't have certain tools. Like out of line shooting, which they have. Imperium can place basilisk out of line of sight and bombard us. They can have Lemon Russ that hide behind out of line of sight, yet, they can move , shoot and then still get to move back behind line of sight again... I could bring 20 lascannons and it wouldn't do anything if the most dangerous shooty stuff he has I can't even see. but it can shoot me with impunity.
5. We are usually less able to stand up to shooting than they are. They usually have high invul saves, some going to 3++ (smash captains looking at you). Ours are usually 5++, and we go into all sorts of convolutions just to make it 4++. I have had a smash captain tank all of my shooting in one round before because he was lucky enough to make all of his invul saves. True story. Here was a 130 point model that had already come in, wrecked some vehicle in my back line, and yet I simply couldn't kill it even in one entire round of shooting ... go figure.
I have tried so many different things. Alpha legion lascannon spam, black legion lascannon spam. Mass demon engines. Raptorial host smash captains.
They all have their problems. Like the raptorial host smash captain one was especially discouraging. I deep struck in on turn 2 the following: Three world eater chaos smash captains and two squads of warp talons. I was reasonably lucky. 4 out of 5 units made the 7 inch charge (because raptorial host). Only 1 smash captain failed the charge.
The warp talons went in first. stopped all the overwatch. And then the two smash captains went in. I killed 3 squads of sisters of battle, and then my 2 smash captains (6 hammer attacks each), even with fury of khorne to fight again, couldn't kill off one squad of breachers. There was one left. It was a blessing in disguise because I three pointed the breacher. So hey, you can't shoot at those two smash captains now!
His turn, his shooting kills off the smash captain that couldn't charge in, and the two squads of warp talons. And his counter attack melee including Celestine, his warlord cannonness, and whatever else he threw in killed off the two smash captains ... in melee! A 4++ invul just isn't as good as a 3++ invul.
And that was 600 points of deep striking melee that all got killed off within one turn... sigh. Well, they did kill off three squads of sisters and messed up one breacher squad in the turn they came in. But ... it was a lousy exchange for the all the 600 points and the CP that I dumped to try and pull this off. (2CP for raptorial host, 3 CP for fury of khorne, 1 CP to reroll a charge).
I have come to one realisation though. Never under estimate imperium melee. Just because they can roll out tons of shooting doesn't mean their melee is bad. They are not Tau. They have smashy melee characters that are every bit as dangerous as anything we can throw at them. It might be a mostly shooty army, but he just needs two or three melee capable characters in it, and those can easily wreck your day on the counter charge when your melee goes in.
I am still experimenting with different setups. And I am not adverse to going chaos soup. Its just that as I mentioned before, as I soup, then I start to soup in more and more other stuff like knights, demons, DG, TS until in the end, the actual CSM elements have been reduced to token amounts or entirely replaced... :(
AlmightyWalrus wrote: Daemon Princes have twice the wounds of a Smashcaptain and better T, as well as being a Psyker (unless you're like me and play Khorne :(). There's plenty of issues with Chaos without overdoing it and complaining about one of the most solid HQs in the game.
Apple and oranges. Besides, CSMDP don't have a 3++, deal way less damage than Smash Captains and have a much larger base.
TL,DR: CSM Daemon princes are trash. Only TS and Daemons ones get used (OK, sometimes Death Guard too).
They are definately not trash, even with a 5++ they are waaay better than standard smash captains (although they are 37 points more expensive). They are more durable against most weapons and they have a higher damage output.
Blood angels smash captains still rule the roost but you can put out similar damage with a flawless host deamon prince with elixir and ultimate confidence. Putting out 23 hits vs imperium units at str 8 -2 ap 2dmg is better than a smash captain in nearly all ways.
Yes TSon is a better overall standard choice but that doesn't make the unit as a whole trash.
Eldarain wrote: Sad but true. Soup is the logical way to go to have a chance. Actual CSM ingredients are harder to justify now.
actually there are a few things CSm do good and why we show up in chaos lists.
Like purge obliterators, slaanesh obliterators, and combiplas terminators of slaanesh........
AlmightyWalrus wrote: Daemon Princes have twice the wounds of a Smashcaptain and better T, as well as being a Psyker (unless you're like me and play Khorne :(). There's plenty of issues with Chaos without overdoing it and complaining about one of the most solid HQs in the game.
Apple and oranges. Besides, CSMDP don't have a 3++, deal way less damage than Smash Captains and have a much larger base.
TL,DR: CSM Daemon princes are trash. Only TS and Daemons ones get used (OK, sometimes Death Guard too).
AlmightyWalrus wrote: Daemon Princes have twice the wounds of a Smashcaptain and better T, as well as being a Psyker (unless you're like me and play Khorne :(). There's plenty of issues with Chaos without overdoing it and complaining about one of the most solid HQs in the game.
Apple and oranges. Besides, CSMDP don't have a 3++, deal way less damage than Smash Captains and have a much larger base.
TL,DR: CSM Daemon princes are trash. Only TS and Daemons ones get used (OK, sometimes Death Guard too).
try to play a flawless host Dp with ultimate confidence+elixir and let me know if it's trash
Bharring wrote: Wouldn't making Chosen troops do a better job of allowing pure-VOTL Legions, Legions who've recruited since, and renegades all in one book?
Why not make legion csm take votlw again? Give them +1 attack, let them have a ccw in addition to a bolter or special weapon, a +1 to leadership, and maybe more weapon options. Of course one additional wound would be too much to ask from gw.
Bharring wrote: Wouldn't making Chosen troops do a better job of allowing pure-VOTL Legions, Legions who've recruited since, and renegades all in one book?
Why not make legion csm take votlw again? Give them +1 attack, let them have a ccw in addition to a bolter or special weapon, a +1 to leadership, and maybe more weapon options. Of course one additional wound would be too much to ask from gw.
Why not instead getting a propper dex 2.0 like marines?
Heck wouldn't even need the supplements, just finally traits and other things working propperly and not just relegating us to dex alphaslaaneshobliterterminator....
It's a bit redundant. Chaincannons are at least unique.
)
Helbrutes get +1 attack when they have two melee weapons.
