Bharring wrote: Wouldn't making Chosen troops do a better job of allowing pure-VOTL Legions, Legions who've recruited since, and renegades all in one book?
Why not make legion csm take votlw again? Give them +1 attack, let them have a ccw in addition to a bolter or special weapon, a +1 to leadership, and maybe more weapon options. Of course one additional wound would be too much to ask from gw.
Why not instead getting a propper dex 2.0 like marines?
Heck wouldn't even need the supplements, just finally traits and other things working propperly and not just relegating us to dex alphaslaaneshobliterterminator....
Well yes that would be nice. But gw can make more money by selling multiple supplements. So that's what we'll get.
lindsay40k wrote: CSMDPs are great, they’re just not as good as DG/CD DR DPs, TS two psychic power DPs, CD Skullreaver DPs, CD Loci, and Syll’Esske
But if they get a solid CSM Legion Trait (FH) or Relic (IE, FME, DFP), they have broad parity
Automatically Appended Next Post: How about Cloak of Conquest on a BLDP?
if i throw Votwl and cacophony at any unit i get also a stellar above average result.
The issue is not that we have not things that can compete but rather that we need to use an comparatively abusrd ammount of ressources to do so.
Eldenfirefly wrote: I always love your army lists. Techsoldaten. You are one of the posters that keep my hopes alive that CSM and black legion can still do something in the current encivronment. However, I do have to ask though. How do you even manage to keep your lascannon Havocs alive? Now Havocs are limited to 5 man. Any dedicated shooting would obliterate them. They are just 5 models with 1W each and no invul save.
Range.
Put them on your table edge, shoot from 48". Most of your opponent's guns can't do that, just bring more than he does.
Think about it this way: 40k is a game of 5 turns. If you can shoot unopposed for 2 turns, that's 3/5ths of the game. When you take out a big chunk of his army each of those turns, you have an overwhelming advantage.
lindsay40k wrote: CSMDPs are great, they’re just not as good as DG/CD DR DPs, TS two psychic power DPs, CD Skullreaver DPs, CD Loci, and Syll’Esske
But if they get a solid CSM Legion Trait (FH) or Relic (IE, FME, DFP), they have broad parity
Automatically Appended Next Post: How about Cloak of Conquest on a BLDP?
if i throw Votwl and cacophony at any unit i get also a stellar above average result.
The issue is not that we have not things that can compete but rather that we need to use an comparatively abusrd ammount of ressources to do so.
I mean, a CD Khorne DP is quite subpar, but with a Skullreaver, it’s great
Giving a 180pt character a Relic, or being a given Chapter, isn’t really much
I’d agree that most of our units require a lot of input to excel, but a DP with a one-off perma upgrade is a pretty self-reliant beatstick
lindsay40k wrote: CSMDPs are great, they’re just not as good as DG/CD DR DPs, TS two psychic power DPs, CD Skullreaver DPs, CD Loci, and Syll’Esske
But if they get a solid CSM Legion Trait (FH) or Relic (IE, FME, DFP), they have broad parity
Automatically Appended Next Post: How about Cloak of Conquest on a BLDP?
if i throw Votwl and cacophony at any unit i get also a stellar above average result.
The issue is not that we have not things that can compete but rather that we need to use an comparatively abusrd ammount of ressources to do so.
I mean, a CD Khorne DP is quite subpar, but with a Skullreaver, it’s great
Giving a 180pt character a Relic, or being a given Chapter, isn’t really much
I’d agree that most of our units require a lot of input to excel, but a DP with a one-off perma upgrade is a pretty self-reliant beatstick
Aye, it's about the only somewhat selfreliant beatstick in the list. Yet his brothers in other lists do that also better.
Not to say he isn't good but if you take soup in consideration you see that he isn't as good comparatively.
Hence my comment on dex CSM beeing dex alphaslaaneshobliterterminator, because that is in essence what shows up competitively.
And whilest i absolutely love to make gimmick lists or think outside the box there are just the facts that people smarter / better then me have figured out what works best more often.
And i can draw my conclusion from that.
I mean the only Mark bound trait that seems to get used higher up in comp is purge in combination with obliterators or plasmatermites. And i kinda start to draw issue with that.
It's not like Smashcaptains don't take a bunch of resources though. They munch CPs and hog relics/warlord traits like mad. Of course a bog-standard Daemon Prince won't match a Slamguinius with 6 CPs worth of stratagems and relic.
On the general subject of DPs, someone was running numbers on Sword vs claws with Hateful Assault and it came up pretty level? Now, when you’re hacking away at 2W or 3W or 4W targets, that does swing a bit? Worth noting that, with Primaris and IH getting buffed, there’s an environment with a lot more things to hit that get up again from a third of 2W attacks.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also pretty hand in a mirror match with Blight Lords aplenty
lindsay40k wrote: On the general subject of DPs, someone was running numbers on Sword vs claws with Hateful Assault and it came up pretty level? Now, when you’re hacking away at 2W or 3W or 4W targets, that does swing a bit? Worth noting that, with Primaris and IH getting buffed, there’s an environment with a lot more things to hit that get up again from a third of 2W attacks.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also pretty hand in a mirror match with Blight Lords aplenty
Still think axe is the better armour choice and talons for everything else. Sword just feels like it's trapped in the middle and not particularly good at either. For example axe kills more primaris than sword (2.7 vs 2.1 from 5 swings) and does more wounds on t7 3+ chasis (6.4 vs 4.9), claws are flat out better vs. any 1 or 2w models even with 6+++.
Always have the axe relic. Best mine DP ever did was survive a Blood angel smashcaptain with 1W left and then returned something like 23W not calculating any MW!!
A DP with intoxicating Elixir is a solid choice as well that I gladly pay cp for.
Trying too build a more shooty list and thinking of havocs with ML for 48” and two profiles. But always see people taking them with either lascannon or reaper chaincannon.
Any reason why this is? Am I missing something? I do know how good RC is but short range and lascannons are really good vs any armor but not hoards.
Oh man, RCCs are the bomb. Disembarking havocs have a threat range of around 34" with them, which is normally enough to get a good job done. Yes they'll probably be stood in the middle of the board afterwards, but frankly your opponent is gonna make sure they're dead straight away anyway.
They have that wonderful virtue of being AT through weight of fire. That really is the best kind of AT in the current IH-dominated meta.
Tazberry wrote: Always have the axe relic. Best mine DP ever did was survive a Blood angel smashcaptain with 1W left and then returned something like 23W not calculating any MW!!
A DP with intoxicating Elixir is a solid choice as well that I gladly pay cp for.
Trying too build a more shooty list and thinking of havocs with ML for 48” and two profiles. But always see people taking them with either lascannon or reaper chaincannon.
Any reason why this is? Am I missing something? I do know how good RC is but short range and lascannons are really good vs any armor but not hoards.
Rcc is s 5, add VotLW into the equation and you get alot better results.
Also missile launchers pay for versatility, however rarely can use it effectively especially if we consider average shots on infantry.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Havocs are a trap if you go expensive weapons. Just buy all Autocannons and they suddenly make a LOT of sense.
Autocannons are allways the answer though Especially for Chaos.
However i started valueing the missile launcher quite a bit in min csm squads.
You might as well just buy the Chaincannon at that point. A single shot makes the ML terrible for AT, and the Chaincannon probably isn't that far off while providing chaff clearing, which is definitely a need.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Havocs are a trap if you go expensive weapons. Just buy all Autocannons and they suddenly make a LOT of sense.
Autocannons are allways the answer though Especially for Chaos.
However i started valueing the missile launcher quite a bit in min csm squads.
You might as well just buy the Chaincannon at that point. A single shot makes the ML terrible for AT, and the Chaincannon probably isn't that far off while providing chaff clearing, which is definitely a need.
For 10 extra points a chain cannon can do everything Autocannons can do but a lot better. Kill more tanks, primaris, chaff and knights.
The only issue is the range but we have lots of ways round that: warptime, rhinos, assault drills, LOS blocking terrain, forward operatives stratergem etc etc.
They might not be always useful t1 but from then on they will at least make their points back if you protect them well.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Havocs are a trap if you go expensive weapons. Just buy all Autocannons and they suddenly make a LOT of sense.
Autocannons are allways the answer though Especially for Chaos.
However i started valueing the missile launcher quite a bit in min csm squads.
You might as well just buy the Chaincannon at that point. A single shot makes the ML terrible for AT, and the Chaincannon probably isn't that far off while providing chaff clearing, which is definitely a need.
For 10 extra points a chain cannon can do everything Autocannons can do but a lot better. Kill more tanks, primaris, chaff and knights.
The only issue is the range but we have lots of ways round that: warptime, rhinos, assault drills, LOS blocking terrain, forward operatives stratergem etc etc.
They might not be always useful t1 but from then on they will at least make their points back if you protect them well.
It depends the target. Keep in mind that we are spending a total of 20 points each on these weapons. That means we have:
24" S5 AP-1 D1 Heavy 8
48" S7 AP-1 D2 Heavy 4
48" S8 AP-2 DD6 Heavy 1 or S4 AP- Heavy D6 Clearly, the ML is a cut below everything else, offering little anti-horde even compared to Autocannons, and the single shot not mattering a lot.
Then we think about opportunity cost. For units only toting around a single Heavy Weapon, you might go more expensive with the Chaincannon. For a unit that's going to be buying a lot, like Havocs in our example, there's merit already to the Autocannon without making them a terribly big target.
Votlw and cacophony are missing from your analysis... together they turn chain havocs into absolute top tier AT and chaff clearers. They can do it all.
Automatically Appended Next Post: They're one of the best answers to IH castles, for example. They lay down painnnn. What other 150pt unit, when supported, can regularly do 15 damage to a castled IH executioner, for example? I cant think of another in the game. Autocannons don't even touch the sides.
grouchoben wrote: Votlw and cacophony are missing from your analysis... together they turn chain havocs into absolute top tier AT and chaff clearers. They can do it all.
Automatically Appended Next Post: They're one of the best answers to IH castles, for example. They lay down painnnn. What other 150pt unit, when supported, can regularly do 15 damage to a castled IH executioner, for example? I cant think of another in the game. Autocannons don't even touch the sides.
Strats only apply to one unit ever at a time, and you might as well math out a full Autocannon squad doing the same thing with their 16 shots + the bonus to wound.
Also that 150 point unit is 30 points per wound. That's the definition of not durable.
Who cares? Havocs are born to die. The trick is getting them to shoot for one turn before that happens. After that one unit has single-handedly wrecked an IH Executioner with its buffs up, it can retire to the warp in peace. That's my point, there are no other units that I know of (certainly not in that price backet) that can do that. After they shoot, they're dead.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Your autocannons do 3.78 damage, by the way, with the same buffs up.
Automatically Appended Next Post: The key here is that, aside from range, autocannons are statistically identical to chain cannons in S, AP and D against an IH Executioner, except they have 1/4 of the RoF.
grouchoben wrote: Who cares? Havocs are born to die. The trick is getting them to shoot for one turn before that happens. After that one unit has single-handedly wrecked an IH Executioner with its buffs up, it can retire to the warp in peace. That's my point, there are no other units that I know of (certainly not in that price backet) that can do that. After they shoot, they're dead.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Your autocannons do 3.78 damage, by the way, with the same buffs up.
Automatically Appended Next Post: The key here is that, aside from range, autocannons are statistically identical to chain cannons in S, AP and D against an IH Executioner, except they have 1/4 of the RoF.
150 points is still a lot in case you forgot how the grand scheme of a CSM would work.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Havocs are a trap if you go expensive weapons. Just buy all Autocannons and they suddenly make a LOT of sense.
Autocannons are allways the answer though Especially for Chaos.
However i started valueing the missile launcher quite a bit in min csm squads.
You might as well just buy the Chaincannon at that point. A single shot makes the ML terrible for AT, and the Chaincannon probably isn't that far off while providing chaff clearing, which is definitely a need.
For 10 extra points a chain cannon can do everything Autocannons can do but a lot better. Kill more tanks, primaris, chaff and knights.
The only issue is the range but we have lots of ways round that: warptime, rhinos, assault drills, LOS blocking terrain, forward operatives stratergem etc etc.
They might not be always useful t1 but from then on they will at least make their points back if you protect them well.
It depends the target. Keep in mind that we are spending a total of 20 points each on these weapons. That means we have:
24" S5 AP-1 D1 Heavy 8
48" S7 AP-1 D2 Heavy 4
48" S8 AP-2 DD6 Heavy 1 or S4 AP- Heavy D6 Clearly, the ML is a cut below everything else, offering little anti-horde even compared to Autocannons, and the single shot not mattering a lot.
Then we think about opportunity cost. For units only toting around a single Heavy Weapon, you might go more expensive with the Chaincannon. For a unit that's going to be buying a lot, like Havocs in our example, there's merit already to the Autocannon without making them a terribly big target.
Autocannon is heavy 2. It's really not a match for RCC vs any target. It's only advantage is range and 40 points less per unit. Only lascannons or RCC make sense to me.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Havocs are a trap if you go expensive weapons. Just buy all Autocannons and they suddenly make a LOT of sense.
Autocannons are allways the answer though Especially for Chaos.
However i started valueing the missile launcher quite a bit in min csm squads.
You might as well just buy the Chaincannon at that point. A single shot makes the ML terrible for AT, and the Chaincannon probably isn't that far off while providing chaff clearing, which is definitely a need.
For 10 extra points a chain cannon can do everything Autocannons can do but a lot better. Kill more tanks, primaris, chaff and knights.
The only issue is the range but we have lots of ways round that: warptime, rhinos, assault drills, LOS blocking terrain, forward operatives stratergem etc etc.
They might not be always useful t1 but from then on they will at least make their points back if you protect them well.
It depends the target. Keep in mind that we are spending a total of 20 points each on these weapons. That means we have:
24" S5 AP-1 D1 Heavy 8
48" S7 AP-1 D2 Heavy 4
48" S8 AP-2 DD6 Heavy 1 or S4 AP- Heavy D6 Clearly, the ML is a cut below everything else, offering little anti-horde even compared to Autocannons, and the single shot not mattering a lot.
Then we think about opportunity cost. For units only toting around a single Heavy Weapon, you might go more expensive with the Chaincannon. For a unit that's going to be buying a lot, like Havocs in our example, there's merit already to the Autocannon without making them a terribly big target.
Autocannon is heavy 2. It's really not a match for RCC vs any target. It's only advantage is range and 40 points less per unit. Only lascannons or RCC make sense to me.
You're looking at it wrong. If all units cost the same because you're CAAC and you're doing Power Level, sure your have a point. With points, you're looking at:
105 points for 8 S7 AP-1 D2 shots
145 points for 4 S9 AP-3 DD6 shots
145 points for 32 S5 AP-1 D1 shots
Clearly there is a good advantage to the large number of shots from the last weapon, but it is 150 points for the one shot at glory.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Havocs are a trap if you go expensive weapons. Just buy all Autocannons and they suddenly make a LOT of sense.
Autocannons are allways the answer though Especially for Chaos.
However i started valueing the missile launcher quite a bit in min csm squads.
You might as well just buy the Chaincannon at that point. A single shot makes the ML terrible for AT, and the Chaincannon probably isn't that far off while providing chaff clearing, which is definitely a need.
For 10 extra points a chain cannon can do everything Autocannons can do but a lot better. Kill more tanks, primaris, chaff and knights.
The only issue is the range but we have lots of ways round that: warptime, rhinos, assault drills, LOS blocking terrain, forward operatives stratergem etc etc.
They might not be always useful t1 but from then on they will at least make their points back if you protect them well.
It depends the target. Keep in mind that we are spending a total of 20 points each on these weapons. That means we have:
24" S5 AP-1 D1 Heavy 8
48" S7 AP-1 D2 Heavy 4
48" S8 AP-2 DD6 Heavy 1 or S4 AP- Heavy D6 Clearly, the ML is a cut below everything else, offering little anti-horde even compared to Autocannons, and the single shot not mattering a lot.
Then we think about opportunity cost. For units only toting around a single Heavy Weapon, you might go more expensive with the Chaincannon. For a unit that's going to be buying a lot, like Havocs in our example, there's merit already to the Autocannon without making them a terribly big target.
Autocannon is heavy 2. It's really not a match for RCC vs any target. It's only advantage is range and 40 points less per unit. Only lascannons or RCC make sense to me.
You're looking at it wrong. If all units cost the same because you're CAAC and you're doing Power Level, sure your have a point. With points, you're looking at:
105 points for 8 S7 AP-1 D2 shots
145 points for 4 S9 AP-3 DD6 shots
145 points for 32 S5 AP-1 D1 shots
Clearly there is a good advantage to the large number of shots from the last weapon, but it is 150 points for the one shot at glory.
I don't understand what you're driving at? They're all as easy to kill as each other.
If you mean points per wound.
Autocannon is 27 points per wound (ppw) vs primaris, RCC is 19 ppw.
AC is 27 ppw vs ork boyz, RCC is 9.6.
AC is 35 ppw vs rhino, RCC is 38 ppw.
AC is 54 ppw vs knight, RCC is 39 ppw.
Then if you take into accout VotLW ans EC there's no comparison.
The Reaper Havoc is one of the best damage units in the game. AC Havocs aren't. You have to build around it, yes, and keep it safe, and expect its immediate death. BUT one squad of havocs with buffs can kill 10 IH Intercessors, almost one-bang an IH Executioner, drop an IH Stormhawk, put 18 damage on a knight, you name it, they do work against it.
AC with the same buffs kills 5 IH Intys, does 3.78 to the Executioner, 6.9 against the Stormhawk, and 9 against the knight. You're trading 40pts for 50-75% less killing power.
Disembarking from a vehicle(which is the what they like to be doing), they have a threat range of 34", and they can hurt any unit in the game. In all but the weirdest of deployments they can find and humiliate a viable target, even if its not your number 1 choice.
Automatically Appended Next Post: PS One glory, not one shot. They are also one of the most reliable damagers in the game, due to their buffs, rerolls, ability to ignore cover and un-nerfable damage (High RoF D1 is currently the best in the meta imo.) It's just a matter of what we'll be facing for the foreseeable, that's all. IH Damage reduction is insane, meta-warping, silly. And Chain Havocs give zero gaks about it.
grouchoben wrote: The Reaper Havoc is one of the best damage units in the game. AC Havocs aren't. You have to build around it, yes, and keep it safe, and expect its immediate death. BUT one squad of havocs with buffs can kill 10 IH Intercessors, almost one-bang an IH Executioner, drop an IH Stormhawk, put 18 damage on a knight, you name it, they do work against it.
AC with the same buffs kills 5 IH Intys, does 3.78 to the Executioner, 6.9 against the Stormhawk, and 9 against the knight. You're trading 40pts for 50-75% less killing power.
Disembarking from a vehicle(which is the what they like to be doing), they have a threat range of 34", and they can hurt any unit in the game. In all but the weirdest of deployments they can find and humiliate a viable target, even if its not your number 1 choice.
Automatically Appended Next Post: PS One glory, not one shot. They are also one of the most reliable damagers in the game, due to their buffs, rerolls, ability to ignore cover and un-nerfable damage (High RoF D1 is currently the best in the meta imo.) It's just a matter of what we'll be facing for the foreseeable, that's all. IH Damage reduction is insane, meta-warping, silly. And Chain Havocs give zero gaks about it.
Exactly there is no list you could face that having some RCC havocks won't be efficient against. I still take one squad of lascannon one of RCC, but as you said with iron hands being so dominant at the moment you could easily get value out of 2/3 squads of pure RCC havocks.
What are people's thoughts on how to equip the aspiring champion? I switch between combi plas and combi bolter/chainsword.
mrtomski wrote: Ok let's say I buy into the reaper chain cannons havoks... how do you get them into range without dying?
A rhino means they have to survive 2 turns of shooting in it (seems unlikely) but a drill adds a lot to thier cost...
I'm changing up my list currently and am having 3 oblits, so votlw and endless will be used on them, are the RCC havoks still worth running?
Firstly, You'd still mark them slaanesh for opportunity threat.
Secondly: I'd say rhino depends alot on the ammount of terrain and los ignoring that you play with.
Thridly: 24"+6" movement because havocs don't care and add in alpha legion and you can squeeze in another bunch of inches.
Fourth: Devastation battery with the stratagem for shooting in the enemy turn can turn them into a dangerous unit all on their own.
Fifth: Whilest i generally still prefer AC the RCC is more then worth it's 20 pts. Especially if you can give them a defensive buff they become a priority target and comparatively it is Still a somewhat cheap unit.
HOWEVER: This all assumes you have more then enough CP which would lead to the question how much CP you generate in your list.
But yes a Unit of Chainhavocs is worth it even if you not primarrily build arround it, due to the fact that it profits from the same ammount off buffs. Especially usefull when you consider T1 you can buff them and t2 you can help out your obliterators.
"Especially usefull when you consider T1 you can buff them and t2 you can help out your obliterators." Yeah exactly this. I think a Rhino is worth it regardless, with the amount of LoS shooting coming from marines these days. Park the Rhino out of LoS against a ruin, and your Havocs can disembark out through the ruins, make their move into range, shoot, and die. T2 the Blits arrive and turn it up a level.
The Drill is another great option, if you can afford it. I can see Havocs sharing their ride with another MSU being a good build, but it arrives T2, and so competes with the Blits, rather than filling the T1 hole they otherwise leave.
you survive yes... cause the threath is low so most opponent wont ever care of AC havocs and when they decide to deal with them they do in 1 single turn, laser or chainguns are the only real threating havocs you can play.
So a Lascannon and RCC is better than a ML but the ML does the same job only worse at it. But the 48” usually makes them survive so you can keep on shooting for 3 turns.
So based on this, I think I will try 2 units of havocs with ML and 2 Deredo butcher and greater havoclauncher for backfield camping as my Lord Ds run up and letterbombs drop in midfield to enemy deployment.
As IH now gets all their buffs and reduces damage I cannot see what role the oblits does. Same as havocs but for 18 shots you pay 345 points vs 150points RCC. In my opinion they killed oblits with the new model realise and updated daatasheet.
New (new) FAQ is out, and the IH castle has taken a beating. I think you'll see much more of IH flyers, and maybe dread tricks, but it's too early to say. Long story short, your deredeo are gonna do great work against them now. I'd still recommend las over missile as 9/-3 is so much better than 8/-2, especially since you're running lots of S8 already... One MoH on a key lev or executioner, and all your guns are wounding on 5's. Good luck dude!
Tazberry wrote: So a Lascannon and RCC is better than a ML but the ML does the same job only worse at it. But the 48” usually makes them survive so you can keep on shooting for 3 turns.
So based on this, I think I will try 2 units of havocs with ML and 2 Deredo butcher and greater havoclauncher for backfield camping as my Lord Ds run up and letterbombs drop in midfield to enemy deployment.
As IH now gets all their buffs and reduces damage I cannot see what role the oblits does. Same as havocs but for 18 shots you pay 345 points vs 150points RCC. In my opinion they killed oblits with the new model realise and updated daatasheet.
I wouldn't use ML havocs personally.
It's a nice oppurtunity weapon for a Min squad csm but a full havoc squad.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
grouchoben wrote: New (new) FAQ is out, and the IH castle has taken a beating. I think you'll see much more of IH flyers, and maybe dread tricks, but it's too early to say. Long story short, your deredeo are gonna do great work against them now. I'd still recommend las over missile as 9/-3 is so much better than 8/-2, especially since you're running lots of S8 already... One MoH on a key lev or executioner, and all your guns are wounding on 5's. Good luck dude!
Well finally a reason to get myself a Hydra or two or three
grouchoben wrote: New (new) FAQ is out, and the IH castle has taken a beating. I think you'll see much more of IH flyers, and maybe dread tricks, but it's too early to say. Long story short, your deredeo are gonna do great work against them now. I'd still recommend las over missile as 9/-3 is so much better than 8/-2, especially since you're running lots of S8 already... One MoH on a key lev or executioner, and all your guns are wounding on 5's. Good luck dude!
after CA flyers spam will be NOT a problem anymore
grouchoben wrote: New (new) FAQ is out, and the IH castle has taken a beating. I think you'll see much more of IH flyers, and maybe dread tricks, but it's too early to say. Long story short, your deredeo are gonna do great work against them now. I'd still recommend las over missile as 9/-3 is so much better than 8/-2, especially since you're running lots of S8 already... One MoH on a key lev or executioner, and all your guns are wounding on 5's. Good luck dude!
after CA flyers spam will be NOT a problem anymore
Are you knwoing that, heard that or just estimate that ?
grouchoben wrote: "Especially usefull when you consider T1 you can buff them and t2 you can help out your obliterators." Yeah exactly this. I think a Rhino is worth it regardless, with the amount of LoS shooting coming from marines these days. Park the Rhino out of LoS against a ruin, and your Havocs can disembark out through the ruins, make their move into range, shoot, and die. T2 the Blits arrive and turn it up a level.
The Drill is another great option, if you can afford it. I can see Havocs sharing their ride with another MSU being a good build, but it arrives T2, and so competes with the Blits, rather than filling the T1 hole they otherwise leave.
So basically jump out of the rhino T1 and move 9 inches into range... yeah I can see that working gives a 33 inch range effectively which should be enough most of the time.
Still 70 points for a bit of protection and the extra 3" movement.
The terminate + oblits does give you the option to potentially hold something back for t3.
Is there anything preventing us from farming CP with a SERVANTS OF THE ABYSS Battalion consisting of two commissars and three units of four beastmen? It’s a pair of power fists and three DS screens / backfield campers. Alternatively, have Traitor guard run & gun
lindsay40k wrote: Is there anything preventing us from farming CP with a SERVANTS OF THE ABYSS Battalion consisting of two commissars and three units of four beastmen? It’s a pair of power fists and three DS screens / backfield campers. Alternatively, have Traitor guard run & gun
Nothing, except that you get cheaper and more bodies with better equipment options if you go R&H
Aside of that, using BSF for R&H standins is also perfecly valid.
…yes, there is. No more than one Beastmen unit, no more than two Traitor Guard units.
But! No limit on Cultists of the Abyss. Three units of them and two commissars is just over 200pts, with six medium range guns to pester things whilst screening and holding objectives, and a cheeky Krak grenade that’ll occasionally do something.
…so, maybe get three boxes of them, and give two DV demagogues a PF & BP weapon swap?
lindsay40k wrote: …yes, there is. No more than one Beastmen unit, no more than two Traitor Guard units.
But! No limit on Cultists of the Abyss. Three units of them and two commissars is just over 200pts, with six medium range guns to pester things whilst screening and holding objectives, and a cheeky Krak grenade that’ll occasionally do something.
…so, maybe get three boxes of them, and give two DV demagogues a PF & BP weapon swap?
I get 2 commanders and 30 militia / mutants for that for excactly 170 pts. From R&H. could throw in 6 Heavy stubber teams aswell on top of that.
But technically yeah, you could modify the DV champions (i did modify one into a Malefic lord some time ago somewhere)
If you manage to get your hands on GSC boltpistols you are basically set, amputate an arm and there done.
OtoH, you are talking about a model with S3 that is paying for a PF and let me tell you out of personal experience, THAT SUCKS:
The regular CSM players in my area always tack on Rhinos for their Havoc squards purely for the LOS denial / they can park them and block a chunk of the board's LOS from picking tjhem off during the early turns
This helps Reaper Chainguns survive that 1-2 extra turns.
Stevefamine wrote: The regular CSM players in my area always tack on Rhinos for their Havoc squards purely for the LOS denial / they can park them and block a chunk of the board's LOS from picking tjhem off during the early turns
This helps Reaper Chainguns survive that 1-2 extra turns.
My idea was more like AL strat into range and buff t1 then t2 oblits come down and buff them. Off course that requires mobile HQ's so jumppacks.
I personally don't estimate my Havocs to survive T1.
lindsay40k wrote: …yes, there is. No more than one Beastmen unit, no more than two Traitor Guard units.
But! No limit on Cultists of the Abyss. Three units of them and two commissars is just over 200pts, with six medium range guns to pester things whilst screening and holding objectives, and a cheeky Krak grenade that’ll occasionally do something.
…so, maybe get three boxes of them, and give two DV demagogues a PF & BP weapon swap?
I get 2 commanders and 30 militia / mutants for that for excactly 170 pts. From R&H. could throw in 6 Heavy stubber teams aswell on top of that.
But technically yeah, you could modify the DV champions (i did modify one into a Malefic lord some time ago somewhere)
If you manage to get your hands on GSC boltpistols you are basically set, amputate an arm and there done.
OtoH, you are talking about a model with S3 that is paying for a PF and let me tell you out of personal experience, THAT SUCKS:
Yeah, the heretical 32 are probably more efficient. I guess it comes down to a preference for a pair of swingy power fist that will struggle to get back their points back, or recording the random leadership rolls of five units.
So heres a world eaters list I'd really like help with. Its 2 battalions and elite detachment for 14 command points the idea is the 4 rhinos and discordant rush up field with the hellbrutes walking behind shooting off there lascannons. Hoping for turn 2 charges. What do you think?
Lots of fat on the bone there I'd say - plasma pistols, rhino-plas, havoc launchers, baleflamers, that all adds up to about 150pts (before we even mention the hellbrutes).
You're playing a viable but not competitive mono faction, so to have a hope in todays insane meta, you need to be efficient.
Your zerkers need the icon for the reroll charges - all of them. That many zerkers are gonna run out of cp rerolls in the charge phase realllll quick. run 6x5, fist on all the sarges., axe for everyone else.
target priority is pretty straight forward - nuke the discolord, then the rhinos, and throw chaff in their way. think about ways to make your opponent make hard decisions. Some hell turkeys might be a good fit for this list.
If you have to go apostle, give him the discipiles for a 2+ roll, and give them benediction of darkness to give your disco lord a fighting chance. imo he's a waste in this kind of list. More threat, always more threat.
Rhinos will go pop unless you hide them T1, and if you hide em their distance covered will be impacted. I'd try and make space for some drills that can DS in T2 and preserve their precious nutcase cargo.
You need some guns my dude. WEs still use guns. Hellbrutes are pretty poor right now. Proxy them as contemptors. Think about a Leviathan investment, or a deredeo.
so I put a bit more thought into the list and think i came up with a pretty good mix of stuff with lots of stuff coming at them forcing some hard target designation. it required me to take out 1 rhino of zerks and the dark apostle it also decreases me form 14 to 10 command points
Dakka brutes are not points efficient. They are cheap but they're also useless. Use Contemptors instead.
If you compare Las/ML Brute v Las Contemptor the Contemptor does 28% more damage per point against your standard T7 3+ vehicle/monster target. Comparisons against T8 or with different weapon options are even more favourable to the Contemptor.
The Contemptor also has an invuln which is quite useful.
Does anyone else get the sneaking feeling that Achilles LRs might have some juice to them? Their T1 survivability beats a knight's if you support it with prepared positions and an Apostle. 1+/4++ at -1 to hit is on parity with the 3++ knights of old. It can take weaver of fates to stack it up to 3++.
I know, I know, it suffers from bad touch, so the rest of your list would be skewed around board control to keep it firing, and 400pts is a scary amount to throw at a LR, and IFs were born to kill LRs. But it feels like it's not *too* far off being viable.
Then you probably want something else that the apostle can target IF it dies T1 or 2. Otherwise you can add that 100 points to that LR. So no I guess? Might be better of with a Chaos Knight.
Seriously hard pass on the Achilles. They are far worse offensively than Knights in shooting not to mention how pathetic they are in combat. They used to be good when they were ~330 points a year (or more?) ago but since then they've been useless.
I think if you want to run Land Raiders you should be looking at just the regular ones. They are only 277 points now (BattleScribe is wrong) which is quite cheap. You can give them a 5++ from a DA if you want. Remember that the 5++ is an aura so if you ran 2 you could protect both of them. I definitely think if you want to use Land Raiders you need to make use of their transport capacity - otherwise just take Las Contemptors. Given that our offensively strong units like Berzerkers and Havocs are pretty fragile (especially against numarines) this actually could be beneficial.
Double LRs with some combination of Berzerkers, CSM/Chosen and chaincannon Havocs inside could actually be pretty good. Have a DA for first turn and then a DP (or Abaddon?) sit near them for re-rolls as you move aggressively up the board. They are by no means unkillable but nothing in our Codex is.
saint_red wrote: I think if you want to run Land Raiders you should be looking at just the regular ones. They are only 277 points now (BattleScribe is wrong) which is quite cheap.
If we're talking about Chaos Land Raiders, I'm afraid they're still 297 minimum. Non-Chaos Land Raiders are 277 at cheapest, but unfortunately we didn't (yet?) inherit this points cut.
I'm happy to pay 103pts to upgrade a LR with two LoS-ignoring soul bombards, +3W and a 4++. But you're right of course, it's way suboptimal in today's meta. CSM have a problem with being too glassy, just thinking of ways to address that which don't involve PB spam.
grouchoben wrote: I'm happy to pay 103pts to upgrade a LR with two LoS-ignoring soul bombards, +3W and a 4++. But you're right of course, it's way suboptimal in today's meta. CSM have a problem with being too glassy, just thinking of ways to address that which don't involve PB spam.
Quite frankly, knights have made most superheavies and heavies obsolete.
grouchoben wrote: I'm happy to pay 103pts to upgrade a LR with two LoS-ignoring soul bombards, +3W and a 4++. But you're right of course, it's way suboptimal in today's meta. CSM have a problem with being too glassy, just thinking of ways to address that which don't involve PB spam.
Quite frankly, knights have made most superheavies and heavies obsolete.
Which is sad.
That's assuming many of them were good to begin with, which I would disagree on for a LOT of them.
grouchoben wrote: I'm happy to pay 103pts to upgrade a LR with two LoS-ignoring soul bombards, +3W and a 4++. But you're right of course, it's way suboptimal in today's meta. CSM have a problem with being too glassy, just thinking of ways to address that which don't involve PB spam.
Quite frankly, knights have made most superheavies and heavies obsolete.
Which is sad.
Many were made obsolete by gw in order to sell knights. My fellblade doesn't have any trouble killing knights. Killing enough of them in order to make up for it's inflated price not so much. Hope gw undoes this gak in ca as it was created by last year's.
How would you guys go about beating monodex knights as monodex csm? I've tried fighting knights twice now with my IW list which admittedly isnt built to face off with only t8 vehicles but I've gotten all but tabled during my opponents first turn and having two lascannons alive for my t1.
Tldr what's our best bet against knights in the dex?
Gidun wrote: How would you guys go about beating monodex knights as monodex csm? I've tried fighting knights twice now with my IW list which admittedly isnt built to face off with only t8 vehicles but I've gotten all but tabled during my opponents first turn and having two lascannons alive for my t1.
Tldr what's our best bet against knights in the dex?
Not allowing your enemy getting T1.
More terrain.
Further, the classic combination of Obliterators with deathhex and prescience and lot's of CP.
Havocs with lascannons. hidden out of LOS. (see Terrain)
Votwl and massed S7 or 8 fire.
The issue is, you need to kinda tailor lists to beat knights , even comptetitive lists are tailored to be able to beat them due to their skew/gatekeeping nature.
Further Objective modes. etc.
alternatively if you have enough GEQ models you can drown them in abbadon plus cultists.
I hear what you're saying. Wouldn't plasma termies be a better option than oblits with the guaranteed AP3 and D2 though. Thanks for the input man, it's in line with what I was leaning towards. Los havocs with cannons
Gidun wrote: How would you guys go about beating monodex knights as monodex csm? I've tried fighting knights twice now with my IW list which admittedly isnt built to face off with only t8 vehicles but I've gotten all but tabled during my opponents first turn and having two lascannons alive for my t1.
Tldr what's our best bet against knights in the dex?
Not allowing your enemy getting T1.
More terrain.
Further, the classic combination of Obliterators with deathhex and prescience and lot's of CP.
Havocs with lascannons. hidden out of LOS. (see Terrain)
Votwl and massed S7 or 8 fire.
The issue is, you need to kinda tailor lists to beat knights , even comptetitive lists are tailored to be able to beat them due to their skew/gatekeeping nature.
Further Objective modes. etc.
alternatively if you have enough GEQ models you can drown them in abbadon plus cultists.
I always like posts about filling the board with LOS blocking terrain and bring plenty of Lascannons. Be careful with that. The major advantage to lascannons is the 48" range, put too much terrain on the board and those big guns are less effective.
Optimizing around lascannon havocs can be effective fighting Knights. Take 3 squads of Havocs with lascannons, make them Black Legion, take Abaddon for rerolls to hit, take a Sorcerer for Prescience and use Council of Traitors to give him Daemon's Eye (or just make him your Warlord,) and use Punishing Volley to shoot during your opponent's first turn movement phase. If you're not using Black Legion, okay, but make sure something gives you rerolls to hit, each shot matters.
If you go second, you should be able to put some wounds on a Knight. If you go first, you should be able to take down at least one Knight your first turn.
Protect your Havocs. If you know you are going second, stick your units behind LOS blocking terrain and bring them out your first shooting turn. Take a Noctolith Crown to improve everyone's saves and make sure everyone's in cover.
The downside to this strategy is you only have 12 lascannons on those Havocs and you're fighting things that eat Infantry. You can expect your opponent will do everything they can to remove the Havocs from the board. Your Plan B needs to be equally strong in case they get shot.
My Plan B is usually 60 Bloodletters in Deep Strike. 30 of them have enough attacks to take out a Knight on the charge. You want to go mono-Codex, which means Obliterators are likely on the menu. Dunno, but make the most out of the rest of your army.
Gidun wrote: I hear what you're saying. Wouldn't plasma termies be a better option than oblits with the guaranteed AP3 and D2 though. Thanks for the input man, it's in line with what I was leaning towards. Los havocs with cannons
You would need a chaos lord to re-roll 1s to hit, if you want to overcharge plasma.
Gidun wrote: I hear what you're saying. Wouldn't plasma termies be a better option than oblits with the guaranteed AP3 and D2 though. Thanks for the input man, it's in line with what I was leaning towards. Los havocs with cannons
You would need a chaos lord to re-roll 1s to hit, if you want to overcharge plasma.
I know I didnt write it out but any deepstriking unit is in my mind always supported with a death hex/prescience sorc and chaos lord
Edit: btw wasnt there a vigilus ablaze warlord trait that gave your chaos sorc a reroll ones aura or something like that?
Edit: btw wasnt there a vigilus ablaze warlord trait that gave your chaos sorc a reroll ones aura or something like that?
Yes, its called warp lord, you can re-roll 1s for psychic tests.
I mean sure they're expensive, but what's the equivalent version of oblits? 3 oblits are 18 shots for like 345pts unsupported right? And have a potentially lower damage output due to d3 ap and dmg no? Also fewer wounds.
Thanks but I was thinking of a trait, strat or whatever that gives a lord reroll aura to a char. I might be mistaken though
So I have been running my 30k emporers children as Flawless Host recently and I have to say wow what a difference exploding 6's can make.
Between the deamon prince consistantly doing 12 to 20 hits per turn of attack depending on the target and just how powerful 10 combi plasma terms with a 5++ and -1 to hit can be...
Has anyone else had much experience with them? I have played only 2 games so far, a 750 pt small game vs salamanders which was incredibly one sided (do just flew across the table, killed his warlord t1, then proceeded to eat everything in sight) and a 1500 pt vs tyranid (DP killed a harpy and his warlord broodlord, terminators dropped in t2 and killed Traygon prime, broodlord t2, t3 they killed 2 biovores, charged a 30 man termagaunt squad and killed them because of no synapses anymore) and the rest of the army just dealt with the bugs as they came (a single squad of 20 marines with 2 las cannons to take early advantage of endless strat) and the rest were 5 man teams for holding territory.
Gidun wrote: How would you guys go about beating monodex knights as monodex csm? I've tried fighting knights twice now with my IW list which admittedly isnt built to face off with only t8 vehicles but I've gotten all but tabled during my opponents first turn and having two lascannons alive for my t1.
Tldr what's our best bet against knights in the dex?
Spoiler:
Not allowing your enemy getting T1.
More terrain.
Further, the classic combination of Obliterators with deathhex and prescience and lot's of CP.
Havocs with lascannons. hidden out of LOS. (see Terrain)
Votwl and massed S7 or 8 fire.
The issue is, you need to kinda tailor lists to beat knights , even comptetitive lists are tailored to be able to beat them due to their skew/gatekeeping nature.
Further Objective modes. etc.
alternatively if you have enough GEQ models you can drown them in abbadon plus cultists
.
I always like posts about filling the board with LOS blocking terrain and bring plenty of Lascannons. Be careful with that. The major advantage to lascannons is the 48" range, put too much terrain on the board and those big guns are less effective.
Optimizing around lascannon havocs can be effective fighting Knights. Take 3 squads of Havocs with lascannons, make them Black Legion, take Abaddon for rerolls to hit, take a Sorcerer for Prescience and use Council of Traitors to give him Daemon's Eye (or just make him your Warlord,) and use Punishing Volley to shoot during your opponent's first turn movement phase. If you're not using Black Legion, okay, but make sure something gives you rerolls to hit, each shot matters.
If you go second, you should be able to put some wounds on a Knight. If you go first, you should be able to take down at least one Knight your first turn.
Protect your Havocs. If you know you are going second, stick your units behind LOS blocking terrain and bring them out your first shooting turn. Take a Noctolith Crown to improve everyone's saves and make sure everyone's in cover.
The downside to this strategy is you only have 12 lascannons on those Havocs and you're fighting things that eat Infantry. You can expect your opponent will do everything they can to remove the Havocs from the board. Your Plan B needs to be equally strong in case they get shot.
My Plan B is usually 60 Bloodletters in Deep Strike. 30 of them have enough attacks to take out a Knight on the charge. You want to go mono-Codex, which means Obliterators are likely on the menu. Dunno, but make the most out of the rest of your army.
yeah normally Lascannons do suffer from more terrain. However due to the stipulation of mono knights and the fact that knights are rather difficult to hide compared to infantry i find that terrain is never a bad call.
Frankly you should anyways never be able to see from 1 side to the other unopossed anyways, but i like to play with more terrain because it generaly tones down the whole killiyness off 8th a tad.
so yeah i am biased
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Gidun wrote: I hear what you're saying. Wouldn't plasma termies be a better option than oblits with the guaranteed AP3 and D2 though. Thanks for the input man, it's in line with what I was leaning towards. Los havocs with cannons
if you want to skip spending CP and lord you could go with a sorcerer and Purge terminators.
Purge terminators do show up and are preety scary.
however they don't excactly have as much damage output raw as slaanesh ones , keep that in mind.
Gidun wrote: How would you guys go about beating monodex knights as monodex csm? I've tried fighting knights twice now with my IW list which admittedly isnt built to face off with only t8 vehicles but I've gotten all but tabled during my opponents first turn and having two lascannons alive for my t1.
Tldr what's our best bet against knights in the dex?
Not allowing your enemy getting T1.
More terrain.
Further, the classic combination of Obliterators with deathhex and prescience and lot's of CP.
Havocs with lascannons. hidden out of LOS. (see Terrain)
Votwl and massed S7 or 8 fire.
The issue is, you need to kinda tailor lists to beat knights , even comptetitive lists are tailored to be able to beat them due to their skew/gatekeeping nature.
Further Objective modes. etc.
alternatively if you have enough GEQ models you can drown them in abbadon plus cultists.
I always like posts about filling the board with LOS blocking terrain and bring plenty of Lascannons. Be careful with that. The major advantage to lascannons is the 48" range, put too much terrain on the board and those big guns are less effective.
Optimizing around lascannon havocs can be effective fighting Knights. Take 3 squads of Havocs with lascannons, make them Black Legion, take Abaddon for rerolls to hit, take a Sorcerer for Prescience and use Council of Traitors to give him Daemon's Eye (or just make him your Warlord,) and use Punishing Volley to shoot during your opponent's first turn movement phase. If you're not using Black Legion, okay, but make sure something gives you rerolls to hit, each shot matters.
If you go second, you should be able to put some wounds on a Knight. If you go first, you should be able to take down at least one Knight your first turn.
Protect your Havocs. If you know you are going second, stick your units behind LOS blocking terrain and bring them out your first shooting turn. Take a Noctolith Crown to improve everyone's saves and make sure everyone's in cover.
The downside to this strategy is you only have 12 lascannons on those Havocs and you're fighting things that eat Infantry. You can expect your opponent will do everything they can to remove the Havocs from the board. Your Plan B needs to be equally strong in case they get shot.
My Plan B is usually 60 Bloodletters in Deep Strike. 30 of them have enough attacks to take out a Knight on the charge. You want to go mono-Codex, which means Obliterators are likely on the menu. Dunno, but make the most out of the rest of your army.
yeah normally Lascannons do suffer from more terrain. However due to the stipulation of mono knights and the fact that knights are rather difficult to hide compared to infantry i find that terrain is never a bad call.
Frankly you should anyways never be able to see from 1 side to the other unopossed anyways, but i like to play with more terrain because it generaly tones down the whole killiyness off 8th a tad.
so yeah i am biased
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Gidun wrote: I hear what you're saying. Wouldn't plasma termies be a better option than oblits with the guaranteed AP3 and D2 though. Thanks for the input man, it's in line with what I was leaning towards. Los havocs with cannons
if you want to skip spending CP and lord you could go with a sorcerer and Purge terminators.
Purge terminators do show up and are preety scary.
however they don't excactly have as much damage output raw as slaanesh ones , keep that in mind.
Purge is pretty rad, but wouldnt not having acess to votlw hurt them too much plus needing to hurt the knight prior to them shooting also be a little bit swingy? Purge lascannon havocs soumd pretty interesting though.
Edit: messed up the spoiler tag, will fix it when i get home haha
Considering the last few top placing CSM lists fielded Purge termites if they fielded termites, (or slaaneshalpha) i'd say a purge soup in detachment might give you some CP independant power.
Further you can shoot into melee if necessary.
Are autocannons worth considering for your havocs with a Black Legion gunline list? 60 pts less with the tradeoff of being more VotLW dependent and weaker vs targets without an invulnerable save? But increased volume of fire...
Worth considering in today's meta or are lascannon havocs where Black Legion is at?
Rihgu wrote: Are autocannons worth considering for your havocs with a Black Legion gunline list? 60 pts less with the tradeoff of being more VotLW dependent and weaker vs targets without an invulnerable save? But increased volume of fire...
Worth considering in today's meta or are lascannon havocs where Black Legion is at?
If Abaddon is around for babysitting duty i'd go with lascannons.
If Abaddon is beatsticking stuff i'd go with ac /.LC depending if I also have heavier AT.
I would be planning to have Abaddon babysit for rerolls. I've tried deepstriking him with terminators and I never have space to put him anywhere important.
I haven't tried just running him up the field though, but it seems like gunline is the way to go anyways.
Rihgu wrote: I would be planning to have Abaddon babysit for rerolls. I've tried deepstriking him with terminators and I never have space to put him anywhere important.
I haven't tried just running him up the field though, but it seems like gunline is the way to go anyways.
I think gunline or running up board behind a mob of cultists/daemon engines is the way to go.
I think reaper chaincannons are best vs almost any target. If you bring a rhino or termite range is fine. And I'd still bring a lord with devestation battery trait and relic. A unit with Abbadon/lord rerolls, VotLW and EC will nearly down a knight and also kill hoardes for fun.
T1 Havoc dakka with DB safety net, plus T2 oblits, all benefitting from DB WT, sounds about as good as it gets
How do Maulerfiends feel? With a soulforged pack, a Warptimed T1 charge can happen, even without Daemonic allies providing advance & charge auras. It may not make it, but it’s such a threat that it makes for a credible fire magnet…
lindsay40k wrote: T1 Havoc dakka with DB safety net, plus T2 oblits, all benefitting from DB WT, sounds about as good as it gets
How do Maulerfiends feel? With a soulforged pack, a Warptimed T1 charge can happen, even without Daemonic allies providing advance & charge auras. It may not make it, but it’s such a threat that it makes for a credible fire magnet…
Is devastation battery worth the CP? I only really see the benefit of the T1 strat, so paying 1cp for access to a one off strat you may not be able to use.
lindsay40k wrote: T1 Havoc dakka with DB safety net, plus T2 oblits, all benefitting from DB WT, sounds about as good as it gets
How do Maulerfiends feel? With a soulforged pack, a Warptimed T1 charge can happen, even without Daemonic allies providing advance & charge auras. It may not make it, but it’s such a threat that it makes for a credible fire magnet…
Is devastation battery worth the CP? I only really see the benefit of the T1 strat, so paying 1cp for access to a one off strat you may not be able to use.
Reroll wound rolls of 1 WL trait, ignore cover relic can make one unit an absolute beast.
lindsay40k wrote: T1 Havoc dakka with DB safety net, plus T2 oblits, all benefitting from DB WT, sounds about as good as it gets
How do Maulerfiends feel? With a soulforged pack, a Warptimed T1 charge can happen, even without Daemonic allies providing advance & charge auras. It may not make it, but it’s such a threat that it makes for a credible fire magnet…
Is devastation battery worth the CP? I only really see the benefit of the T1 strat, so paying 1cp for access to a one off strat you may not be able to use.
Reroll wound rolls of 1 WL trait, ignore cover relic can make one unit an absolute beast.
That reroll 1s to wound is only for vehicles, cover is an extra AP for a relic slot.. so I dont think those combo well, as you are not going to have lots of vehicles in cover. Can be useful on 2 squads targeting different things of course.
Prepared positions alone makes the detachment worth it. Havocs ap is wafty, and blitz can be, so negating cover saves really helps both units. The reroll 1s vs vehicles really helps when your havocs go executioner, knight or flyer hunting. I don;t think the detachment is necessary, but it's done good work for me.
Exactly, if you’re going to take a bunch of havocs and maybe some Obliterators, and you’re not definitely fighting pure horde, I reckon DB is a pretty solid upgrade
lindsay40k wrote: Exactly, if you’re going to take a bunch of havocs and maybe some Obliterators, and you’re not definitely fighting pure horde, I reckon DB is a pretty solid upgrade
It's one of the better ones imo.
Otoh, do we know if the DA one in conjunction with the dark disciples gives you autopass prayers?
Also depends on what boards and opponents you play. It's real common to get tank commanders, deredeos and executioners in cover the whole game in my local scene.
lindsay40k wrote: Exactly, if you’re going to take a bunch of havocs and maybe some Obliterators, and you’re not definitely fighting pure horde, I reckon DB is a pretty solid upgrade
It's one of the better ones imo.
Otoh, do we know if the DA one in conjunction with the dark disciples gives you autopass prayers?
There’s no ‘always fail on a 1’ stipulation for prayers AFAIK
We are happy to spend 2CP to give a Knight a 5++ aura, the only real difference with this would be it can be gak down by snipers as opposed to by like a volcano cannon
The cult of the damned relic, WT, and Cultist strat are pretty weak IMO
lindsay40k wrote: Exactly, if you’re going to take a bunch of havocs and maybe some Obliterators, and you’re not definitely fighting pure horde, I reckon DB is a pretty solid upgrade
It's one of the better ones imo.
Otoh, do we know if the DA one in conjunction with the dark disciples gives you autopass prayers?
There’s no ‘always fail on a 1’ stipulation for prayers AFAIK
We are happy to spend 2CP to give a Knight a 5++ aura, the only real difference with this would be it can be gak down by snipers as opposed to by like a volcano cannon
The cult of the damned relic, WT, and Cultist strat are pretty weak IMO
Interesting, but yeah cult of the damned is pretty weak, as are the DA sadly in most circumstances.
What’s more, the book will include codex supplement-tier content for the Black Templars, Night Lords, Alpha Legion, World Eaters, Emperor’s Children, Iron Warriors and Word Bearers.
Sounds like great news to me. Because we aren't getting another codex we won't have the unit and points adjustments like Space Marines got but hopefully CA2019 will re-balance the points properly for us.
I'm not sure I even dare say it - but maybe my Word Bearers will finally be interesting?
Only if a Black Legion in Vigilus style update makes up for the worst trait that barely applies to any units in the book.
The firestorm of nerdrage they are potentially summoning to their social media by making it sound like what we're getting is anywhere close to the Marine insanity is a bold choice.
I think it's basically guaranteed at this point that they'll make traits apply to all units and they will be revisiting the traits of the legions in the book.
I'd say we can probably expect (some of) new WTs, relics, strats and psychic disciplines too.
Remember that PA1 had a decent amount of new rules even though they weren't insanely powerful. Some of the playtesters have also mentioned how the different PA books are going to vary in how much of the rules they rework, and the Aeldari stuff seemed to be on the low side.
Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment.
The Rumor monger who has correctly revealed things coming for some time now has said traits remain the same and are still laughably restricted. Expect what Black Legion got in Vigilus Ablaze.
Templars of course are getting the full absurd Loyalist Supplement treatment.
Eldarain wrote: Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment.
The Rumor monger who has correctly revealed things coming for some time now has said traits remain the same and are still laughably restricted. Expect what Black Legion got in Vigilus Ablaze.
Templars of course are getting the full absurd Loyalist Supplement treatment.
I haven't seen any rumors that say that and I've read the N&R thread. The french person who was leaking hasn't had an update for a while now, afaik. I'd be interested if you had a source, though.
It's certainly possible that the update doesn't contain changes to traits but that would be pretty ridiculous even for GW. They have done a lot of trait re-balancing in the last 3 months too, so they've clearly identified that there are issues to be fixed in other armies - and we have had arguably the worst traits for a while now.
Eldarain wrote: Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment.
The Rumor monger who has correctly revealed things coming for some time now has said traits remain the same and are still laughably restricted. Expect what Black Legion got in Vigilus Ablaze.
Templars of course are getting the full absurd Loyalist Supplement treatment.
I haven't seen any rumors that say that and I've read the N&R thread. The french person who was leaking hasn't had an update for a while now, afaik. I'd be interested if you had a source, though.
It's certainly possible that the update doesn't contain changes to traits but that would be pretty ridiculous even for GW. They have done a lot of trait re-balancing in the last 3 months too, so they've clearly identified that there are issues to be fixed in other armies - and we have had arguably the worst traits for a while now.
The French fellow did indeed say a few times that Legion traits wouldn't get an update. Not trying to be a Debbie Downer, but, given they were right about everything else, it's likely we're destined to be a good bit behind the loyalist scum for a while longer yet.
Eldarain wrote: Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment.
The Rumor monger who has correctly revealed things coming for some time now has said traits remain the same and are still laughably restricted. Expect what Black Legion got in Vigilus Ablaze.
Templars of course are getting the full absurd Loyalist Supplement treatment.
I haven't seen any rumors that say that and I've read the N&R thread. The french person who was leaking hasn't had an update for a while now, afaik. I'd be interested if you had a source, though.
It's certainly possible that the update doesn't contain changes to traits but that would be pretty ridiculous even for GW. They have done a lot of trait re-balancing in the last 3 months too, so they've clearly identified that there are issues to be fixed in other armies - and we have had arguably the worst traits for a while now.
The French fellow did indeed say a few times that Legion traits wouldn't get an update. Not trying to be a Debbie Downer, but, given they were right about everything else, it's likely we're destined to be a good bit behind the loyalist scum for a while longer yet.
I could see them changing the al trait just so they can nerf it like they did rg. Then do nothing else for the other legions.
I'm slightly hopeful that the contrast between the rules for the one loyalist chapter in the book (getting improved traits + doctrines) and the five chaos legions will mean that we might get something to balance the scales.
TonyH122 wrote: I'm slightly hopeful that the contrast between the rules for the one loyalist chapter in the book (getting improved traits + doctrines) and the five chaos legions will mean that we might get something to balance the scales.
I'd be happy with just a new set of psychic powers, relics, strats and warlord traits for each legion. Apart from IH it isn't the legion traits that are the most beoken thing!
TonyH122 wrote: I'm slightly hopeful that the contrast between the rules for the one loyalist chapter in the book (getting improved traits + doctrines) and the five chaos legions will mean that we might get something to balance the scales.
I'd be happy with just a new set of psychic powers, relics, strats and warlord traits for each legion. Apart from IH it isn't the legion traits that are the most beoken thing!
I don't want broken things. I want good rules that match the fluff of the legions.
I don't want to see a "night lords beating " thread on dakka.
If alpha get to keep thier trait (or much better apply to everything) and get some fancy new strats and relics ala black legion I can see then being them being very strong.
I really hope the BL trait is buffed though, should be on equal standing with the ultra imo.
mrtomski wrote: If alpha get to keep thier trait (or much better apply to everything) and get some fancy new strats and relics ala black legion I can see then being them being very strong.
I really hope the BL trait is buffed though, should be on equal standing with the ultra imo.
Not optimistic, if the traits get looked at, then you can bet that they will nerf it like they did with Alaitoc and RG:
If not , we keep the trait but get basically stuck on the same issues.
So I've been playing a Black Legion gunline lately with lots of havoc lascannons. Against Raven Guard (they used a ton of infiltrating units including 2 invictors, with supressor backup and a deepstriking unit of intercessors) using Abaddon it performed a lot better than I expected it would considering they were primarily infantry.
Last night I played against Space Wolves as part of my narrative campaign I'm running and even without Abaddon those lascannons did a NUMBER on everything they shot at! Wasn't expecting this list to go toe-to-toe with anything but knights/repulsors.
Well, marines, even infantry heavy ones, still present a lot of nice targets to be deleted by lascannons.
Of course anything that does on average 2+ wounds is good against nu marines that run primaris primarily, and atm there isn't really a reason to not run primaris over tac or equivalents.
Which is also precicsly why we still tend to use cultists.
mrtomski wrote: If alpha get to keep thier trait (or much better apply to everything) and get some fancy new strats and relics ala black legion I can see then being them being very strong.
I really hope the BL trait is buffed though, should be on equal standing with the ultra imo.
Not optimistic, if the traits get looked at, then you can bet that they will nerf it like they did with Alaitoc and RG:
If not , we keep the trait but get basically stuck on the same issues.
Altaioc wasn't touched as far as I know. For reasons.
mrtomski wrote: If alpha get to keep thier trait (or much better apply to everything) and get some fancy new strats and relics ala black legion I can see then being them being very strong.
I really hope the BL trait is buffed though, should be on equal standing with the ultra imo.
There's a notable poster here who says Black Legion trait is BETTER than the Ultras.
Not that Black Legion is, as a whole, more powerful than Ultras. (Which used to be true, then Marines got a 2.0 while we have a 1.1.) That the Black Legion TRAIT is better.
mrtomski wrote: If alpha get to keep thier trait (or much better apply to everything) and get some fancy new strats and relics ala black legion I can see then being them being very strong.
I really hope the BL trait is buffed though, should be on equal standing with the ultra imo.
There's a notable poster here who says Black Legion trait is BETTER than the Ultras.
Not that Black Legion is, as a whole, more powerful than Ultras. (Which used to be true, then Marines got a 2.0 while we have a 1.1.) That the Black Legion TRAIT is better.
Please explain to me how the trait can be decently used... genuinely curious as I run BL and have hardly ever got any use out of it.
mrtomski wrote: Please explain to me how the trait can be decently used... genuinely curious as I run BL and have hardly ever got any use out of it.
With Bolter Discipline... Not very often or well.
First off, if you need to advance a CSM Squad to get an objective or something, then it's nice to get a few extra shots. But that's niche-generally you'll want a FAST unit to do that.
Then, the range bands.
0"-18" Useless. You trade 2 shots at 3+ for 1 at 4+ and d6" of movement.
18"-24" Useless. You trade 2 shots at 3+ (standing still) or 1 shot at 3+ (moving) for 1 shot at 4+ and d6" of movement.
24"-30" Finally adequate. You trade 1 shot at 3+ for hitting on a 4+, but gain d6" of movement-this trade MAY be worth it.
30"-36" Actually useful. If you, for some reason, happen to have your only good CSM Bolter target more than 30" but within 36", you can Advance and potentially gain shots when normally you can't get any.
Then there's also minor tidbits (such as being unable to make it past LoS-blocking terrain without an Advance) but overall...
It's fething useless. The +1 Leadership bit is probably more useful-and we all know how unimportant Leadership is in 8th edition.
Edit: If you want to ask the guy who thinks the Black Legion trait is better than the Ultras (to my knowledge, he STILL thinks this) ask Xenomancers.
Primaris Ultramarines player here been out of the loop with what's happened to CSM for a while. I got rid of my old chaos models a while ago but thinking of getting back into CSM with a start collecting box and 2 battleforces. What do you all use for anti tank? My ultramarines army relied on repulsor executioners, stormhawks, and hellblasters. I've flipped through the book a bit, but the only things that immediately stood out for this were obliterators and havoks, but even then they seemed expensive for how fragile they can be.
Also being spoiled by aggressors really shows how not great terminators are. Any way to make them not terrible? I was thinking of chain axes with combi-plasmas.
10 slaanesh plasma termis with a JP chaos lord for re-roll 1s, and a JP sorcerer for prescience. Deepstrike them all, cast prescience, use votlw, overcharge plasma, shoot, shoot again with endless cacophony. Thats 40 shots at S8 AP-3 D2, hitting on 2s, re-rolling 1s, with +1 to wound. But also 600 pts.
Boogles wrote: Primaris Ultramarines player here been out of the loop with what's happened to CSM for a while. I got rid of my old chaos models a while ago but thinking of getting back into CSM with a start collecting box and 2 battleforces. What do you all use for anti tank? My ultramarines army relied on repulsor executioners, stormhawks, and hellblasters. I've flipped through the book a bit, but the only things that immediately stood out for this were obliterators and havoks, but even then they seemed expensive for how fragile they can be.
Also being spoiled by aggressors really shows how not great terminators are. Any way to make them not terrible? I was thinking of chain axes with combi-plasmas.
Obliterators, in conjunction with cacophony and Votwl.
Havocs with lascannons and lord support aswell as cacophony.
As p5freak said, termites.
Melee via Lord discordant, DP, or any such beatstick.
Are Havocs with Chain Cannons any decent? A lot of people here seem to promote Havocs with lascannons (which I already have), but I was thinking of running a squad of them with the Mark of Slaanesh. It seemed 64 (that's with Endless Cacophony) St5, AP-1 shots re-rolling to hit will shred just about anything. Factor in Veterans as well, and it seems like you'd basically be able to kill anything given enough time.
I was also tempted to use Forge Worlds Kakophoni as proxies (not only are they cheaper and nicer models, but it seems like a cool way to represent other forms of 'Sonic Weapons').
blood reaper wrote: Are Havocs with Chain Cannons any decent? A lot of people here seem to promote Havocs with lascannons (which I already have), but I was thinking of running a squad of them with the Mark of Slaanesh. It seemed 64 (that's with Endless Cacophony) St5, AP-1 shots re-rolling to hit will shred just about anything. Factor in Veterans as well, and it seems like you'd basically be able to kill anything given enough time.
I was also tempted to use Forge Worlds Kakophoni as proxies (not only are they cheaper and nicer models, but it seems like a cool way to represent other forms of 'Sonic Weapons').
Its honestly just a range issue. 24" puts you in threat range of most other shooting in the game, and in some cases even melee. Youll be lucky to get more than a turn out of them.
Lascannons on the other hand, can comfortably squat in the back all game, being far more protected from the enemy. Chaincannons ARE fantastic on paper, but are hard to protect in practice.
blood reaper wrote: Are Havocs with Chain Cannons any decent? A lot of people here seem to promote Havocs with lascannons (which I already have), but I was thinking of running a squad of them with the Mark of Slaanesh. It seemed 64 (that's with Endless Cacophony) St5, AP-1 shots re-rolling to hit will shred just about anything. Factor in Veterans as well, and it seems like you'd basically be able to kill anything given enough time.
I was also tempted to use Forge Worlds Kakophoni as proxies (not only are they cheaper and nicer models, but it seems like a cool way to represent other forms of 'Sonic Weapons').
Its honestly just a range issue. 24" puts you in threat range of most other shooting in the game, and in some cases even melee. Youll be lucky to get more than a turn out of them.
Lascannons on the other hand, can comfortably squat in the back all game, being far more protected from the enemy. Chaincannons ARE fantastic on paper, but are hard to protect in practice.
yep, further, you need some movement shenanigans and they are really dangerous.
Otoh, literally everyone will shoot at them as soon as possible.
Chain Havocs are one of the best units in the roster!
They will die as soon as they are exposed though, that's their nature. It's a one-turn 150pt dakka-orgy, and they really really need a rhino to hide in, preferably tucked in a ruin somewhere, out of LoS. That way eliminators and the like can't just remove them. It also gives them +4" threat range (40mm base disembarking) adding up to 34", which is enough to target something juicy. I auto-include 2 and a rhino in most of my lists, for what it's worth. T1 one squad emerges, drops 3cp and deletes something, T2 the second squad pops out to rinse and repeat.
Boogles wrote: Primaris Ultramarines player here been out of the loop with what's happened to CSM for a while. I got rid of my old chaos models a while ago but thinking of getting back into CSM with a start collecting box and 2 battleforces. What do you all use for anti tank? My ultramarines army relied on repulsor executioners, stormhawks, and hellblasters. I've flipped through the book a bit, but the only things that immediately stood out for this were obliterators and havoks, but even then they seemed expensive for how fragile they can be.
Also being spoiled by aggressors really shows how not great terminators are. Any way to make them not terrible? I was thinking of chain axes with combi-plasmas.
Currently, my anti-tank options are:
- Oblits
- Las Havocs
- Throwaway Raptors
- DG Haulers & DP - CD Khorne DP with Skullreaver Axe
- Soulforged Pack with Warptime and/or advance & charge auras from Daemons
- WE smashlord
Strongly recommend holding on a week or two to see what tools PA3 brings the six Legions
Havocs w/ Chaincannons are a one-shot wonder. They pop off and then they die.
It's why I prefer Autocannons on them. They don't give up as many points and slinging out 5-6 shots on average for 115 points ain't too bad for picking off last wounds.
Hey fellows, i'm looking for advice about Black legion army building, it seems that vigilus ablaze brought alot of different combinations, but I found most of them mediocre. I'm planning to build an army around abaddon, but i'm not sure where to go from there. Most likely not the cultists spam, but any thoughs are welcome. Thanks.
Spreelock wrote: Hey fellows, i'm looking for advice about Black legion army building, it seems that vigilus ablaze brought alot of different combinations, but I found most of them mediocre. I'm planning to build an army around abaddon, but i'm not sure where to go from there. Most likely not the cultists spam, but any thoughs are welcome. Thanks.
I'd still consider a blob of cultists simply for screening.
2x 5 man CSM would then be the other troops for the Battalion requirement.
Consider havocs, what with abbigail beeing really good to buff them, especially lascannons or alternatively Autocannons.
BL trait sadly is , erm, well you see when the BL trait even comes into play. So ehh.
Second HQ you could go with a Chainsword lord with ghovshrex teeth and Flames of spite
of course with jumppack.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Havocs w/ Chaincannons are a one-shot wonder. They pop off and then they die.
It's why I prefer Autocannons on them. They don't give up as many points and slinging out 5-6 shots on average for 115 points ain't too bad for picking off last wounds.
The reason Autocannon havocks survive is because they don't do anything and get ignored. Your opponent has to shoot something.
Spreelock wrote: Hey fellows, i'm looking for advice about Black legion army building, it seems that vigilus ablaze brought alot of different combinations, but I found most of them mediocre. I'm planning to build an army around abaddon, but i'm not sure where to go from there. Most likely not the cultists spam, but any thoughs are welcome. Thanks.
I'd still consider a blob of cultists simply for screening.
2x 5 man CSM would then be the other troops for the Battalion requirement.
Consider havocs, what with abbigail beeing really good to buff them, especially lascannons or alternatively Autocannons.
BL trait sadly is , erm, well you see when the BL trait even comes into play. So ehh.
Second HQ you could go with a Chainsword lord with ghovshrex teeth and Flames of spite
of course with jumppack.
Hey, thanks. Yeah the legion trait is a bit of a downer, but that's alright. Are terminators viable option? I like the bringers of despair specialist detachment, as it can give you addittional character with full reroll to hit (Chaos Lord). Oh, and I forgot the chainsword Lord, i'll have to look into that again.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Havocs w/ Chaincannons are a one-shot wonder. They pop off and then they die.
It's why I prefer Autocannons on them. They don't give up as many points and slinging out 5-6 shots on average for 115 points ain't too bad for picking off last wounds.
The reason Autocannon havocks survive is because they don't do anything and get ignored. Your opponent has to shoot something.
For 40 extra points you do twice the damage.
Don't do anything? Autocannons are fantastic. I'm also not for giving up more points than I need to for this army already, especially when that squad is 150 points with the effective range of 24"
blood reaper wrote: Are Havocs with Chain Cannons any decent? A lot of people here seem to promote Havocs with lascannons (which I already have), but I was thinking of running a squad of them with the Mark of Slaanesh. It seemed 64 (that's with Endless Cacophony) St5, AP-1 shots re-rolling to hit will shred just about anything. Factor in Veterans as well, and it seems like you'd basically be able to kill anything given enough time.
I was also tempted to use Forge Worlds Kakophoni as proxies (not only are they cheaper and nicer models, but it seems like a cool way to represent other forms of 'Sonic Weapons').
Its honestly just a range issue. 24" puts you in threat range of most other shooting in the game, and in some cases even melee. Youll be lucky to get more than a turn out of them.
Lascannons on the other hand, can comfortably squat in the back all game, being far more protected from the enemy. Chaincannons ARE fantastic on paper, but are hard to protect in practice.
yep, further, you need some movement shenanigans and they are really dangerous.
Otoh, literally everyone will shoot at them as soon as possible.
If people are shooting at your chaincannon havocs ASAP, then you don't have enough threat saturation. Honestly, I run 3 squads of havocs, I used to run 4 (yes I bought 4 boxes) (before someone mentioned the "advisement" of 3), but given those 2 things I found that autocannons never really did much. So I run Las, missile and chaincannons all as alpha legion, and try to dig them into cover. It's true that they do go before my other havocs (most of the time, because they aren't in cover and need to get closer), and I find they are only extremely effective against mob army's. I also run chaincannons in my 3 squads of marines in my red corsairs detachment. I need to try running the havocs up in a rhino as suggested, then deep striking my oblits next to them, can I put a chaos lord in a rhino (I don't see why not)?
note: my army isn't going to win tourneys, havocs just aren't that good in general, too glass cannon. But it does win me a fair share of games locally.
^ yeah, you can put a CL in a Rhino, though I prefer giving them a jump pack or bike or Steed or Disc. More utility when the gunners are dead or under melee threat
Draco765 wrote: Quick question:
Would an Airwing of Xiphon Patern Interceptors be a good thing to run in a mostly melee army of Khorne CSM?
I mean if you wanted to keep theme Heldrakes would be better, but Xiphons are still decent as far as I remember.
Xiphons are pretty darned great, and would fill a massive hole in an army of brawlers. They can hit pretty much anything on the board on a 3+, and force all round bubblewrapping of keystone buff characters. If there’s big chunky LOS blocking terrain, they can avoid T1 firepower without losing their own.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I’m cautiously optimistic that Word Bearers might get the first half of the Black Templars Trait - reroll any charge dice. If that comes to pass, their Raptorial Hosts of Warp Talons and smashlords could become pretty darned mean.
Stretch hope? A CSM army upgrades DttFE to Death To The False Everyone, and a WB army that summons daemons will give them their Aura bonuses, and also not lose their own CSM & WB army bonuses when cosexisting with Daemons (perhaps via a WT).
Draco765 wrote: Quick question:
Would an Airwing of Xiphon Patern Interceptors be a good thing to run in a mostly melee army of Khorne CSM?
I mean if you wanted to keep theme Heldrakes would be better, but Xiphons are still decent as far as I remember.
Drakes are great, but the fact that Xiphons have the extra turn at the end of movement, and are basically flying Predators, with an extra weapon, seems like it can do good.
Have one Xiphon and one Drake already, found a deal for a cheap Xiphon which I could then make those three an airwing for the extra command point.
Draco765 wrote: Quick question:
Would an Airwing of Xiphon Patern Interceptors be a good thing to run in a mostly melee army of Khorne CSM?
I mean if you wanted to keep theme Heldrakes would be better, but Xiphons are still decent as far as I remember.
Xiphons are pretty darned great, and would fill a massive hole in an army of brawlers. They can hit pretty much anything on the board on a 3+, and force all round bubblewrapping of keystone buff characters. If there’s big chunky LOS blocking terrain, they can avoid T1 firepower without losing their own.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I’m cautiously optimistic that Word Bearers might get the first half of the Black Templars Trait - reroll any charge dice. If that comes to pass, their Raptorial Hosts of Warp Talons and smashlords could become pretty darned mean.
Stretch hope? A CSM army upgrades DttFE to Death To The False Everyone, and a WB army that summons daemons will give them their Aura bonuses, and also not lose their own CSM & WB army bonuses when cosexisting with Daemons (perhaps via a WT).
Anyway, enough wishlisting
I realize you're wishlisting but wouldn't rerolling charges be a world eaters or night lords thing? Night lords had it in 7th. Can't remember about world eaters.
How good would having a battalion of World Eaters and one of Brazen Beasts do in the same army? Ideally, I'd want my BB heavy firepower to offset my WE's emphasis on melee. I'd throw in one for the Red Corsairs for the command points and psychic powers (if I give them a different mark).
IMHO Chain Havocs are a trap. You get a huge amount of firepower, but they will be targeted by everything and anything. Better IMHO to put the Chaincannon in 5-man CSM squads; you lose the move and fire w/out penalty but the high volume of shots makes up for it, and then you spread out the firepower. Keep Havocs in the back with long range weapons, and use the move and fire without penalty to reposition.
Havocs with buffs will do 14.5 damage to a rotated knight in one round. They will alternatively murder ten intercessors in one round, if you prefer. How could that possibly be a trap?
Automatically Appended Next Post: I'd say they're one of the few top-tier competitive units in the codex in the current meta. The 'trap' is that your opponent must absolutely and with extreme prejudice kill them because they represent such a serious threat. For 150pts.
It's a trap simply because of the firepower that will be directed. So there are two ways to do it:
1) Don't and use Chaincannons elsewhere to prevent focus fire while havocs do what they do best which is to provide long-range fire support. 2) Use them to make your opponent waste shots into them out of fear of the Endless Cacophony Havoc, while you have other things equally deadly.
#2 works best if you have a lot of threats on the board because your opponent has to pick which he ignores. I remember a lot of discussion when it was previewed gushing over the chaincannon havocs, but to my knowledge, they never really became that amazing of a unit that you saw dominating.
Wayniac wrote: It's a trap simply because of the firepower that will be directed. So there are two ways to do it:
1) Don't and use Chaincannons elsewhere to prevent focus fire
2) Use them to make your opponent waste shots into them out of fear of the Endless Cacophony Havoc, while you have other things equally deadly.
#2 works best if you have a lot of threats on the board because your opponent has to pick which he ignores. I remember a lot of discussion when it was previewed gushing over the chaincannon havocs, but to my knowledge, they never really became that amazing of a unit that you saw dominating.
TBH, if you get a round of shooting in, they do wonders.
The key issue is that you need to use other ressources to get to that point, f.e. AL stratagem, Formation stratagem, etc.
Long range high power guns that start on the ground out of sight, and on T1 take rooftop positions to pound away for as long as possible.
Burner short range dakka unit that starts in a transport or forward operating, then uses 3CP & a psychic power or prayer to delete a horde.
The former is somewhat dependent on terrain. The latter is very dependent upon terrain and moving parts and deployments and infiltrators.
The burner dakka loadout is a load of fun, but it categorically not a distraction Carnifex. 150pts of T5 5W that must be taken out is just going to get shot away by any army that’s not a garagehammer carpet of Berzerkers or Genestealers or Choppa Boyz.
Your chain-havocs will die. They will jump out of a rhino for a 36" threat range. They will delete or bracket anything you point them at. This will cost you 150pts + support, which will transfer next turn to another unit.
They delete bubblewrap, flay intercessors, bust tanks, kill 65% of a knight. In fact they do about 40% more damage to a knight than las havocs do.
Daemon weapons are back, and with CRR being a thing they might be a LOT better than last edition’s Warp Roulette. There’s probably a CSM equivalent to Combat Doctrines, and maaaybe Legion equivalents to Scions of Ultramar
No Legion psychic disciplines, no Legion special issue wargear, one page of Stratagems each, no mention of datacards
Looks like our “Codex Supplement tier” extra rules are more like Vigilus BL tier
Also, loyalists get to soup up their characters, and BT seem to get Chapter Litanies. Chaplains definitely needed it, to be fair, but we’re not getting parity - we’ve moved upfield but so have the goalposts
Am I just being bad at math, but doesn't the new khorne axe math out worse than daemonic axe vs KEQ and VEQ on daemon princes? That's not even counting on what happens if you roll a 1.
Edit: I was a bit off, the new axe is ever so slightly stronger than the daemonic axe. But at that point, why wouldn't one just go for a slaanesh DP with talons, intoxicating elixir and warptime/diabolic strength for a better prince anyway?
Daemon weapons are back, and with CRR being a thing they might be a LOT better than last edition’s Warp Roulette. There’s probably a CSM equivalent to Combat Doctrines, and maaaybe Legion equivalents to Scions of Ultramar
No Legion psychic disciplines, no Legion special issue wargear, one page of Stratagems each, no mention of datacards
Looks like our “Codex Supplement tier” extra rules are more like Vigilus BL tier
Also, loyalists get to soup up their characters, and BT seem to get Chapter Litanies. Chaplains definitely needed it, to be fair, but we’re not getting parity - we’ve moved upfield but so have the goalposts
I am not so sure about the CSM equivalent to combat doctrines, but I hope you're right. Sure would be neat but we'll see. I wonder if there are any non god-specific daemon weapons, or any ranged weapons in the mix?
Oh, and Daemonkin Warlord Traits remain out of print, so if you want to make your cool new Sorcerer into a Warp Lord, the tactic there is to go back in time and buy Shadowspear
As i said on the rumours thread the Khorne weapon might be a bit tasty on a WE daemon prince.
7 Attacks on the charge hitting on 2's with a re-roll at average strength 10-11 -5 2dmg, thats on average taking 10 wounds off a knight in one round of combat.
Or you know, just don't waste a relic slot on something that'll generate 2 more damage/turn on a knight in melee than daemonic axe will on a DP.
Edit: Without the additional detriment of possibly hurting yourself. Just go for a Skullreaver DP if you really wanna go knight-hunting with it. The relic being D2 really hurts it.
Normally I wouldn't post this here, but since this thread was actually a big part of my learning to love and really embrace my Chaos army, I thought I'd share.
No real epiphanies for readers of this thread, but still fun to see something of mine posted on FLG!
NewTruthNeomaxim wrote: Normally I wouldn't post this here, but since this thread was actually a big part of my learning to love and really embrace my Chaos army, I thought I'd share.
No real epiphanies for readers of this thread, but still fun to see something of mine posted on FLG!
NewTruthNeomaxim wrote: Normally I wouldn't post this here, but since this thread was actually a big part of my learning to love and really embrace my Chaos army, I thought I'd share.
No real epiphanies for readers of this thread, but still fun to see something of mine posted on FLG!
you compared them to tofu.
WHY? HOW DARE YOU ABUSE THE STEW ! HOW DARE YOU!
Oh and yes in fun meta or random meta, or friend meta possesed are worth the lols if you invest in them. Somewhat.
Then again so is the undieable wall of Corsairs
@Gidun - It was actually written a while ago and only just posted, so away from my notes I think it was Greater Possessed buff, Diabolical Strength psychic power, and.... um... something else? I'll figure it out and ask them to post a clarification.
@Not Online!!! - A thousand pardons! I actually don't have a fondness for tofu, but I know culinarily that it famously tastes like whatever you cook into it. :-p Made sense at the time!
NewTruthNeomaxim wrote: @Gidun - It was actually written a while ago and only just posted, so away from my notes I think it was Greater Possessed buff, Diabolical Strength psychic power, and.... um... something else? I'll figure it out and ask them to post a clarification.
@Not Online!!! - A thousand pardons! I actually don't have a fondness for tofu, but I know culinarily that it famously tastes like whatever you cook into it. :-p Made sense at the time!
Well, I mean. Diabolical strength was the thing I kind of wanted to point out. It doesn't buff the entire unit but rather a single model in it.
NewTruthNeomaxim wrote: @Gidun - It was actually written a while ago and only just posted, so away from my notes I think it was Greater Possessed buff, Diabolical Strength psychic power, and.... um... something else? I'll figure it out and ask them to post a clarification.
@Not Online!!! - A thousand pardons! I actually don't have a fondness for tofu, but I know culinarily that it famously tastes like whatever you cook into it. :-p Made sense at the time!
Well, I mean. Diabolical strength was the thing I kind of wanted to point out. It doesn't buff the entire unit but rather a single model in it.
Someone else in the comments actually posted a way to (correctly) do Str8, but when I get home I'll pull out my notes. I'll ask them to let me add a correction to my gak-up if I'm wrong. :-) Thanks.
I would say the new relic sword is actually /better/ on a Chaos Lord than it is a DP. Give that lord a jump pack, and he'll absolutely blend in CC. The point of the relic by the way, is not an anti-tank weapon. It's much better suited to blend stuff like Primaris or other multi-wound infantry. It completely negates their save, deals 2 flat damage, and on average will probably have enough strength to wound on 2s.
vaklor4 wrote: I would say the new relic sword is actually /better/ on a Chaos Lord than it is a DP. Give that lord a jump pack, and he'll absolutely blend in CC. The point of the relic by the way, is not an anti-tank weapon. It's much better suited to blend stuff like Primaris or other multi-wound infantry. It completely negates their save, deals 2 flat damage, and on average will probably have enough strength to wound on 2s.
Gotta disagree. With the naturally higher Strength value and attacks of the Prince, you're more likely to get that wounding on a 2+.
Not really, +1 from a trait, 3 on average and you got your 8 strength, 10 with diabolic strength. Don't even need the trait on a juggerlord, but in that case you could even skip the power assuming a nearby herald or so to get to 10. They stand to gain more than a prince considering it costs you a relic.
NewTruthNeomaxim wrote: @Gidun - It was actually written a while ago and only just posted, so away from my notes I think it was Greater Possessed buff, Diabolical Strength psychic power, and.... um... something else? I'll figure it out and ask them to post a clarification.
@Not Online!!! - A thousand pardons! I actually don't have a fondness for tofu, but I know culinarily that it famously tastes like whatever you cook into it. :-p Made sense at the time!
Well, I mean. Diabolical strength was the thing I kind of wanted to point out. It doesn't buff the entire unit but rather a single model in it.
Someone else in the comments actually posted a way to (correctly) do Str8, but when I get home I'll pull out my notes. I'll ask them to let me add a correction to my gak-up if I'm wrong. :-) Thanks.
Possessed bomb doesnt really work. You need up to 8 (!) support characters for maximum buffs. Thats up to 1000 pts.
NewTruthNeomaxim wrote: @Gidun - It was actually written a while ago and only just posted, so away from my notes I think it was Greater Possessed buff, Diabolical Strength psychic power, and.... um... something else? I'll figure it out and ask them to post a clarification.
@Not Online!!! - A thousand pardons! I actually don't have a fondness for tofu, but I know culinarily that it famously tastes like whatever you cook into it. :-p Made sense at the time!
Well, I mean. Diabolical strength was the thing I kind of wanted to point out. It doesn't buff the entire unit but rather a single model in it.
Someone else in the comments actually posted a way to (correctly) do Str8, but when I get home I'll pull out my notes. I'll ask them to let me add a correction to my gak-up if I'm wrong. :-) Thanks.
Possessed bomb doesnt really work. You need up to 8 (!) support characters for maximum buffs. Thats up to 1000 pts.
You also don't need max Strength.
Often the S6 bracket is good enough.
That said , allready getting to the S6 bracket requires ressources that just are too costly imo in the context of things.
That said , allready getting to the S6 bracket requires ressources that just are too costly imo in the context of things.
Agreed. You need at least 4 support characters and stratagems to buff them to good levels. Thats ~400 pts. you could invest in chaincannon havocs, a rhino, and a chaos lord, prescience sorceror.
It is OTT/gimmick to bring a unit that depends upon loads of other units, but in some lists, you might well be bringing those other units anyway
Heralds are cheap, and in the absence of a Combat Doctrines equivalent a Nurgle/Khorne/Tzeentch Battalion or Slaanesh Vanguard/Outriders is a solid army element with decent synergy with like Daemon Engines and Oblits.
Greater Possessed are a handy accompaniment to Maulerfiends and Disco Lords, helping their CC attacks go up a wounding bracket. If Venomcrawlers get a price cut to compete with bigger stuff, likewise their shooting.
I suspect mono Daemonkin armies will remain viable, what with the benefits of trees, and Nurgle & Slaaneshi Loci. When you’ve already got a bunch of stuff that happens to boost Daemonic Astartes Strength and a bunch of high tier units, Possessed can be viable.
If we get upgraded Traits, that could be a game changer for them.
blood reaper wrote: I feel it's a bit of a waste of time to bring a unit if you have to bring like four or five other units to make it even semi-viable.
tbf the whole schtick of the chaos dex IS atm this stacking off buffs and in that respect possessed don't have the worst outlook, technically, until you realise that you pay 20 pts for a primaris without a gun and no consistency.
That said , allready getting to the S6 bracket requires ressources that just are too costly imo in the context of things.
Agreed. You need at least 4 support characters and stratagems to buff them to good levels. Thats ~400 pts. you could invest in chaincannon havocs, a rhino, and a chaos lord, prescience sorceror.
Assuming you want s6:
You'd need 2 Greater possesed so 140 pts.
Assuming you also want to get into melee you need warptime, and the right trait, either AL or RC. So another 90+ for a sorcerer AND you need the squad to be big enough to potentially swallow decent Overwatch. So about 10 dudes, which ammounts to 200 pts.
Further you want to reroll charges for 10 pts and potentially fight 2 times.
so we are talking about 440+ pts depending on psy weapon and stratagems, which will also have a cost further points.
RC would be cheapest option overall with probably the biggest ammount of Reach for the correspoinding unit of possesed BUT, assuming 1 command reroll for psy or charge aswell as fighting twice are 4 CP which are about 35 pts each.
So the actual cost for the list would be closer to 550-600 which has however not solved the other issues regarding CP and other options wanting CP aswell.-
blood reaper wrote: I feel it's a bit of a waste of time to bring a unit if you have to bring like four or five other units to make it even semi-viable.
tbf the whole schtick of the chaos dex IS atm this stacking off buffs and in that respect possessed don't have the worst outlook, technically, until you realise that you pay 20 pts for a primaris without a gun and no consistency.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
That said , allready getting to the S6 bracket requires ressources that just are too costly imo in the context of things.
Agreed. You need at least 4 support characters and stratagems to buff them to good levels. Thats ~400 pts. you could invest in chaincannon havocs, a rhino, and a chaos lord, prescience sorceror.
Assuming you want s6:
You'd need 2 Greater possesed so 140 pts.
Assuming you also want to get into melee you need warptime, and the right trait, either AL or RC. So another 90+ for a sorcerer AND you need the squad to be big enough to potentially swallow decent Overwatch. So about 10 dudes, which ammounts to 200 pts.
Further you want to reroll charges for 10 pts and potentially fight 2 times.
so we are talking about 440+ pts depending on psy weapon and stratagems, which will also have a cost further points.
RC would be cheapest option overall with probably the biggest ammount of Reach for the correspoinding unit of possesed BUT, assuming 1 command reroll for psy or charge aswell as fighting twice are 4 CP which are about 35 pts each.
So the actual cost for the list would be closer to 550-600 which has however not solved the other issues regarding CP and other options wanting CP aswell.-
20pts is a very valid concern. I mean, effectively they’re Primaris with a power axe and +1M, but agreed, they’re overcosted, and certainly unlikely to dominate hardcore competitive without strolling into a vulnerable meta.
Point of order on the Greater Possessed - their bonuses don’t stack, and Possessed are already S5, so you just need one (and only one) to his S6.
Regarding Sorcerer Warptime buy-in, if you’re CSM and not Khorne, you’re probably taking a Sorcerer with Warptime and either Prescience or a deity endurance spell. Dark Hereticus is really good, and the question for most of us is not whether or not we spend the points on a Sorcerer, it’s which unit we cast on. A horde of Possessed that can advance and charge thanks to a Gnarlmaw or Herald of Slaanesh is absolutely a viable first turn target, outside of hardcore competitive. With a Soulforged Pack, Maulerfiends can make the T1 touchdown without WT, so Possessed can really add to the horror there.
Whilst not top tier, it is the sort of themed Daemonkin list that disrupts a local meta without being frustrating - playing against it is a fun experience in survival and deployment. And, unlike a Defiler or such, it can conga line so that the Sorcerer doesn’t need to get into DtW range to cast it (notwithstanding BT scouts, assuming that they regain their original Strat, and that Crusaders don’t *replace* both OG troops choices as they used to) (some SoB or AdMech lists can definitely hard Counter, though).
20pts is a very valid concern. I mean, effectively they’re Primaris with a power axe and +1M, but agreed, they’re overcosted, and certainly unlikely to dominate hardcore competitive without strolling into a vulnerable meta.
Point of order on the Greater Possessed - their bonuses don’t stack, and Possessed are already S5, so you just need one (and only one) to his S6.
Regarding Sorcerer Warptime buy-in, if you’re CSM and not Khorne, you’re probably taking a Sorcerer with Warptime and either Prescience or a deity endurance spell. Dark Hereticus is really good, and the question for most of us is not whether or not we spend the points on a Sorcerer, it’s which unit we cast on. A horde of Possessed that can advance and charge thanks to a Gnarlmaw or Herald of Slaanesh is absolutely a viable first turn target, outside of hardcore competitive. With a Soulforged Pack, Maulerfiends can make the T1 touchdown without WT, so Possessed can really add to the horror there.
Whilst not top tier, it is the sort of themed Daemonkin list that disrupts a local meta without being frustrating - playing against it is a fun experience in survival and deployment. And, unlike a Defiler or such, it can conga line so that the Sorcerer doesn’t need to get into DtW range to cast it (notwithstanding BT scouts, assuming that they regain their original Strat, and that Crusaders don’t *replace* both OG troops choices as they used to) (some SoB or AdMech lists can definitely hard Counter, though).
Yep, forgot they don't stack, would probably need more daemon support then indeed.
However the issue still remains, beyond beeing fun, slinging a bunch of wannabee-primarismarines-cosplaying-daemons at the enemy that can't even figure out propperly how to fight in melee half the time, whilest fun is still frankly a lot less good then even flinging other stuff at faces.And as much as it is fun it is as agrivating when you just threw in essence 400 pts in the bin when you roll a one on attacks.
Not to mention the hard counters. However the worst designcrime in the equation is the MoP/ appostle and how they interact with possesed. THere's not much point in a MoP, (beyond trolling psyker heavy armies, if you get him in reach) when even a normal sorcerer offers just better alternatives.
Whilest the apostle himself is kinda , wierd, anyways.
I do hope for a price reductions for both the apostle and the MoP because they are conceptually great but so long you are not khorne there isn't really that much of a point in the apostle whilest the MoP is just atm kinda obsolete in a way, partially because his discipline is too specific for a unit type that is questionable in performance.
Roknar wrote: Not really, +1 from a trait, 3 on average and you got your 8 strength, 10 with diabolic strength. Don't even need the trait on a juggerlord, but in that case you could even skip the power assuming a nearby herald or so to get to 10. They stand to gain more than a prince considering it costs you a relic.
See, you might not even need Diabolic Strength on the Daemon Prince 1/3 of the time is a MAJOR difference though. He's just more independent because of his stats. If you need to cast something, great. Lords NEED the casting though and because points are always tight (you're gonna be dedicating your Sorcerers to Chainhavocs for example), that independence cannot be understated. It's part of the same reason Disco Lords are great. They don't NEED the support, but it's there just in case.
Agreed that the Possessed-relevant support characters are also overcosted rn
Rolling a 1 for attacks really isn’t that much of an issue when you’ve got two ways to reroll it, a +1S&A Strat, and Hateful Assault
Main problem IMO is 1D attacks. Nurgle Possessed in a Daemonkin list can work around that, again without a huge amount of work (the Locus is a general benefit that Daemon Engines also love, and Virulent Blessing is as standard in Nurgle Daemonkin as Warptime is in CSM)
I quite like a T1 charge with EC Possessed & fiends. Striking first with a spiky tarpit that can gain +2A is a nasty surprise, and if your opponent Counter-charges they’re feeding Hateful Assault
I for one am not really hopeful about any significant changes, as sad as that may be. I've pretty much given up on any ideas of doing Chaos despite the army being my favorite, since I can't make them work the way I feel they should work (you know, with actual Chaos Marines) and I don't want to play them the way they're good because it never seemed to fit and I have a penchant for the "Undivided" Legions, Iron Warriors in particular so mixing and matching legion traits or "counts as" FOTM tactics don't cut the mustard.
Wayniac wrote: I for one am not really hopeful about any significant changes, as sad as that may be. I've pretty much given up on any ideas of doing Chaos despite the army being my favorite, since I can't make them work the way I feel they should work (you know, with actual Chaos Marines) and I don't want to play them the way they're good because it never seemed to fit and I have a penchant for the "Undivided" Legions, Iron Warriors in particular so mixing and matching legion traits or "counts as" FOTM tactics don't cut the mustard.
until recently i run a list that had 40 CSM , 5 chosen, 5 havocs, 5 termites, and corresponding charachters aswell as some Hellbrutes and a defiler.
It did quite well unexpectedly, (was run as RC) until new marines showed up with the general -1 AP + other effects. Which kicked me back to field fodder from souped in R&H units.
It's especially agrivaiting that the superior tac marines pays less then a CSM.
Hi all i’m a new chaos player and i have 2 question on this list just to improve my play style.
1 why he run mixed legion (world eaters, thousand sons and crimson slaughter in this case) if he lose all the benefits ?
2 what advantage i get for mark of slaanesh on my lord discordant ? I find that rules in daemons codex ?
Hi all i’m a new chaos player and i have 2 question on this list just to improve my play style.
1 why he run mixed legion (world eaters, thousand sons and crimson slaughter in this case) if he lose all the benefits ?
2 what advantage i get for mark of slaanesh on my lord discordant ? I find that rules in daemons codex ?
Hi, Nasty, welcome to the good guys 1 - He doesn’t lose *all* the benefits. See that third detachment? It’s unlocked the CSM Codex Stratagems. Now, none of the first detachment get their Legion Trait, but the World Eater can still use the Scorn of Sorcery Stratagem (handy when facing Magnus and he rolls a 14 for Smite), and making him a LoE is the cheapest way to add the third mandatory HQ unit in the Supreme Command. Ahriman has bonuses to cast just for turning up, and doesn’t necessarily need the TS Legion Trait. The Sorcerer can’t even use the CS Stratagem, due to a quirk of RAW, but is able to take the excellent Delightful Agonies spell - which Ahriman (and Morty) cannot. Mortarian is, well… Mortarion. Ironically, he has nothing that benefits from the DG Legion Trait. He makes plenty enough impact without leading a load of his kids.
2 - Mark of Slaanesh on LD does enable it to benefit from Chaos Daemons stuff that can be cast on Slaanesh Daemon units - for instance, that Epitome’s Hysterical Frenzy, but doesn’t bring much advantage within the CSM Codex. The third detachment is a Flawless Host one, from the Vigilus expansion, which makes them all pretty lethal in close quarters - and, incidentally, obliged to be Slaaneshi.
To be fair, SM don't really have any units that are actually worth putting in a Land Raider. Assault Centurions, Aggressors and Smash Caps are the only melee units they have that are any good and a Land Raider does nothing for those units.
On the other hand, we actually have units that could benefit from a LR. If the LR drops to 277 as expected, I think you could make a case for Possessed, Zerkers, Plague Marines (with flails), Chosen and Havocs all hitching a ride. Still not 'competitive' as it stands but if those units get adjusted in CA19 or PA2 (please god) it could be interesting.
Personally I have been thinking about running 9 Possessed with an MoP in their specialist detachment. 3-5 attacks each at S6, AP-2 with Infernal Power up (1.36x modifier) is pretty good. Too expensive currently but honestly not far off.
saint_red wrote: To be fair, SM don't really have any units that are actually worth putting in a Land Raider. Assault Centurions, Aggressors and Smash Caps are the only melee units they have that are any good and a Land Raider does nothing for those units.
On the other hand, we actually have units that could benefit from a LR. If the LR drops to 277 as expected, I think you could make a case for Possessed, Zerkers, Plague Marines (with flails), Chosen and Havocs all hitching a ride. Still not 'competitive' as it stands but if those units get adjusted in CA19 or PA2 (please god) it could be interesting.
Personally I have been thinking about running 9 Possessed with an MoP in their specialist detachment. 3-5 attacks each at S6, AP-2 with Infernal Power up (1.36x modifier) is pretty good. Too expensive currently but honestly not far off.
9 possesed, MoP, LR, and specialist detachment.
That is alot of buck for low ammount off bang.
Possessed and MoP will do over 25 wounds to MEQ equivalent easily. That's without fight twice strat or VotLW. That's actually very good. Similar point per wound as the full chaincannon havoc combo which is mathematically one of our most efficient ways of damaging MEQs. Do the math and see for yourself.
Land Raiders - if they get a point cut - start to actually become serviceable. They will cost about the same as a 2xtwin las Contemptor + a rhino and fulfill the same roles but in one package. Can it still die? Yes. But everything in this game will die if your opponent tries hard enough.
Zerkers will be even better against MEQs but a little worse against higher T/Sv models and don't have the option for MWs that Possessed do. I believe that flail Plague Marines are actually the most mathematically efficient but I have yet to do the maths myself.
We also have a shed load of new stratagems, WTs and relics coming our way so it's highly likely there will be some combinations out there that make this setup even better.
Honestly, given that they have two sources of advance & charge, Possessed don’t need a Land Raider, regardless of LR efficiency. There’s not a hypothetical price on a LR that wouldn’t be better spent on more Possessed.
The biggest problem with Possessed is Primaris. They do similar things but better - especially now a veteran Intercessors sergeant can take a thunder hammer - and the improvements to Primaris mean that Possessed will find themselves in metagames geared up to kill 2W MEQ. They need a drop of, what, 4pts? I love them to bits but they really have been pushed to garage-gimmick tier
The issue hasn't changed: LRs need the ability to a) disembark their troops after moving and b) withdraw from combat and still shoot, even at a minus. It's mind-boggling that they're still where they were when 8th dropped two and a half years ago.
At 20ppm and 7" movement they are too slow to footslog in my opinion. I've tried it and it doesn't work. Yes they can get advance and charge but it forces you to go RC which isn't ideal or you have to bring a Slaanesh herald which costs even more points. A Slaanesh herald + 4 lascannons (+ unit to fire them) costs almost as much as a Land Raider anyway.
Disembark after moving would be great but it's not completely necessary. You're going to be killing screens T1 anyway.
grouchoben wrote: The issue hasn't changed: LRs need the ability to a) disembark their troops after moving and b) withdraw from combat and still shoot, even at a minus. It's mind-boggling that they're still where they were when 8th dropped two and a half years ago.
That's because gw doesn't care about lr because they want loyalist players to buy repulsors. And since our points are tied to their points regardless of the units use in the respective armies we get the same bad rules as them.
Same reason our inferior levi costs the same as their superior one.
I would hope for a drop in pts for the Predator too. Make all "old" plastic vehicle kits signature Chaos units. Rhinos, LR, Preds. I'm super surprised they haven't dumped the Drop Pod kit on us yet.
saint_red wrote: Possessed and MoP will do over 25 wounds to MEQ equivalent easily. That's without fight twice strat or VotLW. That's actually very good. Similar point per wound as the full chaincannon havoc combo which is mathematically one of our most efficient ways of damaging MEQs. Do the math and see for yourself.
Land Raiders - if they get a point cut - start to actually become serviceable. They will cost about the same as a 2xtwin las Contemptor + a rhino and fulfill the same roles but in one package. Can it still die? Yes. But everything in this game will die if your opponent tries hard enough.
Zerkers will be even better against MEQs but a little worse against higher T/Sv models and don't have the option for MWs that Possessed do. I believe that flail Plague Marines are actually the most mathematically efficient but I have yet to do the maths myself.
We also have a shed load of new stratagems, WTs and relics coming our way so it's highly likely there will be some combinations out there that make this setup even better.
Each Possessed gets an average of 3 attacks. (1d3+1)
That's 2 hits.
4/3 wounds.
8/9 unsaved.
So you'd need a little over 28 Possessed to do 25 wounds to MEQs.
MOP has the reroll hits and wounds of 1, right? I'd assume that's what you're using. That changes the math to...
saint_red wrote: Possessed and MoP will do over 25 wounds to MEQ equivalent easily. That's without fight twice strat or VotLW. That's actually very good. Similar point per wound as the full chaincannon havoc combo which is mathematically one of our most efficient ways of damaging MEQs. Do the math and see for yourself.
Land Raiders - if they get a point cut - start to actually become serviceable. They will cost about the same as a 2xtwin las Contemptor + a rhino and fulfill the same roles but in one package. Can it still die? Yes. But everything in this game will die if your opponent tries hard enough.
Zerkers will be even better against MEQs but a little worse against higher T/Sv models and don't have the option for MWs that Possessed do. I believe that flail Plague Marines are actually the most mathematically efficient but I have yet to do the maths myself.
We also have a shed load of new stratagems, WTs and relics coming our way so it's highly likely there will be some combinations out there that make this setup even better.
Each Possessed gets an average of 3 attacks. (1d3+1)
That's 2 hits.
4/3 wounds.
8/9 unsaved.
So you'd need a little over 28 Possessed to do 25 wounds to MEQs.
MOP has the reroll hits and wounds of 1, right? I'd assume that's what you're using. That changes the math to...
You'll be able to give one unit of Possessed +1A through an EC Stratagem and grant +1A for a turn through their Specialist Detachment Stratagem. Against Imperium you'd also have DttFE. So their damage would be more along the lines of ~1.7W each for a squad of 10, going up to about ~3W each with Prescience and VotLW.\
Possessed don't have a strong profile but any big unit gets crazy when you stack enough buffs on them.
Can someone explain the new warlord trait for alpha legion? The way I read it, it's utter crud. 1 model in a cultist unit gets AP-1... what's the point??
Automatically Appended Next Post: Or would all models get the -1?
2+D3 attacks each from strat. Re-roll hits and wounds of 1s from Infernal Power. 6s are MWs from Shepard of the True Faith. Equates to 16.92 wounds against MEQ with an additional 8.25MWs from Shepard. This includes DttFE. That's more than 25 wounds. This is from a squad of 9.
This is only one psychic power, a 1CP strat and a WT (either Field Commander or normal). You can further increase the damage by VotLW, fight twice strat, World Eaters trait, EC strat, re-rolling your Writhing Tentacles roll averages more attacks etc. Obviously it is not practical or realistic that you will have every buff up at all times, but there are enough buffs available here that you can turn on to get the job done.
The mistake people often make with Possessed is trying to get every single possible buff on them but they only need a couple to be dangerous.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also this is very silly, but indulge me.
Word Bearers Dark Apostle with Mark of Khorne, The Cursed Crozius, Omen of Potency, Wrathful Entreaty (Khorne prayer), new double prayer strat, VotLW and the +1A WT. 8 S8 attacks at AP-4 Damage 3, re-rolling wounds against Imperium units. That's 17.777 wounds against a no-invuln T8 target.
Seriously though, the new strat make Apostles much more versatile. You can give them your normal buff strat for the unit they are accompanying and then throw up Omen of Potency + Wrathful Entreaty if you ever get into melee and start thunder-punching nerds into the next millennium.
36 attacks 28 hits, 7 extra attacks for 49/9 more. 301/9 2,107/81 wounds, with 2,107/324 mortals. 6.50 mortal wounds 4,214/243 unsaved, for 17.34 damage
That's 23.84 damage. You probably had some rounding errors.
Edit: Unless it was 6s to-hit gives the mortals? In which case, there's 8.36 mortals.
My mistake, you're right that I was calculating the MWs off the hit roll and not the wound roll.
Point still stands though. 23-24 wounds for 9 Possessed and MoP with not even full buffs is actually good. That will do more damage than the equivalent number of Berzerkers with (for example) an Exalted Champ to buff them.
Is this going to win the LVO for you? Probably not. But they aren't dogshit like everyone seems to suggest. PA2 will likely bring more interesting options to the table too.
So with the new Alpha Legion trait, you can technically turn a lord discordant into a 48 inch sniper that also deals out moral wounds. Seems like a phenomenally bad idea, but I find that hilarious.
lare2 wrote: Can someone explain the new warlord trait for alpha legion? The way I read it, it's utter crud. 1 model in a cultist unit gets AP-1... what's the point??
Automatically Appended Next Post: Or would all models get the -1?
Whole unit gets it from my understanding. Also I just realized this, could you VoTLW to make all your shots Ap 1 on 5's and 6's on a cultist unit? Granted that's not really the first thing I'd use that strat on but it's an option.
Roknar wrote: So with the new Alpha Legion trait, you can technically turn a lord discordant into a 48 inch sniper that also deals out moral wounds. Seems like a phenomenally bad idea, but I find that hilarious.
Otoh , sniping with a magma cutter is probably preeety bonkers
Looks like Fleshmetal Exoskeleton from the Codex isn't repeated in the book, which is a bit weird given the wording of the Artefact section (seems to imply you can't take it alongside the new Iron Warrior artefacts.
Emperors Children also get one of the best stratagems in the game imo; being able to turn any of the two dice used in a charge roll to a flat six is bonkers, especially since there's nothing to prevent you from re-rolling the other die.
Gidun wrote: We don't really have any way to generate additional warlord traits outside of getting the specialist detachments through field commander, right?
Edit: Or Black legion.
Alpha Legion now has a Stratagem for it, but it can only be used once.
It's exceptionally gakky "I am Alpharius" can only be used to get random traits from the CSM Warlord table considering all of the Alpha Legion ones are either Good or outright Top Tier, where some of the CSM Warlord Traits are just outright crap.
Warlord Traits: 1. Same at Codex
2. -1 to hit against warlord for enemy within 3"
3. when your Warlord Fights, you and your opponent secretly choose a number between one and three on a D6. Reveal at the same time, if the numbers differ, your warlord can make that many additional attacks. if they're the same nothing happens.
4. roll a D3 at the start of the fight phase, subtract that many attacks from enemy models within 1"
5. -1 damage against your warlord
6. re-roll charge rolls. if your warlord charges or heroic interventions, +1 S and A
Stratagems: 2CP: Combat Elixirs
- Profile on Community Website
1CP: Excess of Violence
- See Codex
1CP: Incessant Disdain
- Use at the end of your opponents charge phase. Select one EC character, that model can perform a 6" heroic intervention and can move 6" when doing so.
1CP: Honour the Prince
- Use in your Charge Phase. after making a charge roll for an EC Slaanesh unit, you can change the result of one of the D6 to a 6.
1CP: Excruciating Frequencies
- Use in your Shooting phase, when an EC Noise Marine unit from your army is chosen to Shoot. Until the end of the phase, add 1 to the strength and Damage of blast masters, sonic blasters and doom sirens.
1CP: Cruel Duelists
- Use in the Fight Phase, when an EC unit that's not a vehicle or cultist unit is chosen to fight. until the end of the phase, unmodified wound rolls of 6 have an AP characteristic of -3
1CP: Tactical Perfection
- use at start of first battle round, select one EC unit and re-deploy them in your deployment zone.
Relics: The Endless Grin: morale tests within 6" roll and additional dice and you choose which is discarded. in addition, subtract 1 from Ld for enemy units within 6"
Fatal Sonancy:
- R 12", Assault D6, S6, ap -2, D 1, abilities: auto hits, ignore cover
Armour of Abhorrence: Enemy units cannot fire overwatch against this unit, enemy units that fail morale within 6", one additional model flees.
Remnant of Marayiglia: Priest models only. when resolving a prayer: re-roll wound rolls for EC within 6" until the end of the battle round - one use
Distortion: Power sword or force sword only.
- S User, ap - 4, D d3, abilities: can chose to X2 strength but -1 to hit.
Raiment Revulsive: Re-roll hit and wound rolls for attacks. re-roll charge rolls.
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World Eaters Rules:
Spoiler:
Warlord Traits: 1. From Codex
2. Add D3 to attacks if there are more enemy units within 3" than friendly units. these extra attacks last until the end of the fight phase.
3. See Community Website
4. +1 charges for friendly WE within 6"
5. half damage suffered against melee weapons (rounding up)
6. 6" heroic intervention. and warlord always fights first
Stratagems: 1CP: Scorn of Sorcery
- See Codex
1CP: Apocalyptic Frenzy
- Use during deployment. when you set up a WE infantry unit. at the start of the first battle round, you can move then 9". can't be within 9" of enemy units etc.
1CP: Skulls for the Skull Throne
- Use in the Fight phase, when an enemy CHARACTER model is destroyed from a WE character you gain D3 CP
2CP: Red Butchers
- use before the battle, Select one WE Terminator unit. add 1 to Strength characteristic and they gain the Blood For the Blood God ability (same one from the Khorne Berzerkers)
1CP: Maim! Kill! Burn!
- Use in the Fight phase. before you consolidate with a WE unit. Until the end of that phase, that unit can consolidate 6"
1CP: Wild Fury
- Use in the Fight phase, when you select a WE unit to fight with. improve the AP of that units melee weapons by 1 until the end of that phase.
1CP: Stoke the Nails
- Use in the Fight phase, when a WE Infantry or Biker unit (excluding cultists) fights. until the end of the phase, that units Death to the False Emperor ability affects any enemy unit. but its a 5+ against Imperium.
2CP: Blood for the Blood God!
- use in fight fight phase, if a WE unit destroys a unit in the fight phase, do not roll morale for that unit, its automatically passed.
Relics: Crimson Killer: plasma Pistol only
- R12", S9, ap -3, d 3, abilities: unmodified wound rolls of 4+ inflict a mortal wound in addition to normal damage
Gorefather: See community website
Banner of Rage: Priest model only, once per battle at the start of the fight phase, add 1 to the attacks characteristics for friendly WE units within 6".
Berzerker Glaive: Power axe or axe of dismemberment.
- S +1, ap -2, D 2, abilites: 5+ feel no pain on the bearer.
Helm of Furore: Infantry model only. +2 Strength. Bearer must charge if there are any enemy units within 8"
Bloodhunger: When an enemy model is destroyed in the fight phase from this model, roll a D6, on a 4+ the bearer regains a lost wound.
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Iron Warriors Rules:
Spoiler:
Warlord Traits: 1. From Codex
2. unmodified hit rolls of 6 for friendly IW Daemon engine or Cult of Destruction models within 6" scores 1 additional hit
3. 5+ 'feel no pain'
4. When resolving an attack with AP1 made against friendly IW units within 6" and they're benefiting from cover, that attack becomes AP0
5. profile on Community Page
6. IW units within 6" do not suffer penalties for moving and firing heavy weapons
Stratagems: 1CP: Iron Within Iron Without
- Same at Codex
1CP: Methodical Annihilation
- Use in Shooting phase, select one IW unit to shoot then select one of the following effects to last to the end of the phase:
1. Re-roll damage
2. you can re-roll any or all of the dice to determine shots for weapons
1CP: Dour Duty
- use in opponents shooting phase or your charge phase. when resolving a shooting attack against an IW unit, worsen the AP by one.
1CP: Unholy Vigour
- use at start of movement phase, select one IW Vehicle, that model gains up to 3 lost wounds.
1CP: Tank Hunters
- use in shooting or Fight phase. when IW unit (not Cultists) shoots or fights, select one enemy Vehicle unit. re-roll wound rolls for that IW unit against the vehicle.
1CP: Rampant Techno-Virus
- use in shooting or Fight Phase. Select an IW Obliterator or Mutilator unit when they shoot or fight. you can re-roll any or all of the D3 rolls when using the fleshmetal guns or flesh metal weapons ability
2CP: Cannon Fodder
- Use this Stratagem at the start of your opponents shooting phase. select one IW infantry and one IW cultist unit wholly within 6" of that unit. until the end of the phase, enemy models cannot target that IW infantry unit if the selected IW cultists are visible.
1CP: Bitter Enmity
- use in the Fight phase. Select one IW unit to fight with. re-roll hit and wound rolls against Imperial Fists units.
Relics: Siegebreaker Mace: Power maul or accursed Crozius only (Has 2 profiles)
Swing - S +2, ap -2, D 2
Smash - S x2, ap -3, D d6, Ablities, when using smash, it makes 2 attacks, in addition roll 2D6 for damage, discard the lowest.
Cranium Malevolis: in your shooting phase, this model can use the relic instead of shooting. roll a D6 for each enemy vehicle unit within 9". on a 4+ they take D3 mortal wounds, on a 6 they take 3 mortal wounds.
Insidium: Model gains the Daemon Keyword, add 1 to Strength, Toughness and wounds characteristics.
Axe of the Forgemaster: Power axe or daemonic axe only
- S +3, ap -3, D2, abilities: against vehicles, unmodified hit rolls of 5+ inflict D3 mortal wounds in addition to normal damage.
Spitespitter: Combi-bolter only
- R24", RF2, S 5, ap -3, D d3
Techno-Venemous Mechatendrills: Warpsmith only
- S User, AP 0, D 1, Abilites: 4 additional attacks (this weapon can only make 4 attacks). every hit scored does a mortal wound.
Warlord Traits: 1. From Codex
2. -1 to hit rolls against this Warlord.
3. Warlord can target characters. Unmodified Hit rolls of 6 inflict 1 mortal wound in addition to normal damage
4. at the start of the first battle round, before the turn begins. select up to 3 other AL units on the battlefield. redeploy them in your deployment zone
5. Profile on Community Page
6. once per battle, at the end of your Movement phase, you can remove your warlord and redeploy him within 3" of an AL unit and 9" from enemy units.
Stratagems:
1CP: Forward Operatives
- From Codex
2CP: Conceal
- use at start of opponents shooting phase. Select one AL infantry unit. cannot be targeted unless it's the closest visible unit.
1CP: Sabotaged Armoury
- profile on Community website
1CP: Scrambled Coordinates
- use in enemy movement phase, enemy units deploying as reinforcements have to be more than 12" away instead of 9"
1CP: Renascent Infiltration
- Use at the end of the your Movement phase. Select one AL Infantry unit more than 3" from enemy models (cannot select units that arrived from reserve). remove that unit and set them up more than 9" from enemy models
edit: might be more like: "Renascent Infiltration" only happens in your own movement phase, and removes the unit until (the end of?) your next movement phase.
2CP: Ambush
- use in opponents Movement phase, after your opponent has set up reinforcements, select one AL unit from your army within 18". they can shoot that unit as if it where your shooting phase.
1CP: Feigned Retreat
- Use in movement phase, select one AL unit, they can shoot after they fell back.
1CP: We are Alpharius
- Use before the battle, after nominating your Warlord, select another AL Character and generate a trait for them. can only use once per battle.
Mindveil: start of movement phase, while on the battlefield, roll 3D6. until the end of the phase, that models move characteristic is that result. this model can move over other models as if they weren't there (in the movement and charge phase). this model can charge after it fell back.
Hydra's Wail: once per battle, at the start of the turn. for the remainder of the turn, when your opponent uses a stratagem roll a D6, on a 4+ your opponent must spend an additional CP to use that stratagem or it has no effect and the CP spent are lost.
Viper's Wail: Combi-bolter only
- R24", RF2, S5, ap -3, D 2
Hydra's Teeth: Bolt weapon only, Grants the following abilities:
auto hits, wounds on a 2+ unless its a vehicle or titanic in which case it wounds on a 6+, ignores cover.
Shadeblade: Power sword or Force Sword only
- S +1, ap -3, D d3, abilites: -1 to hit against the bearer
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Night Lords Rules:
Spoiler:
Warlord Traits: 1. from codex
2. can charge after falling back, -1 to hit rolls against melee weapons
3. unmodified hit rolls of 6 cause a mortal wound in addition to other damage
4. Add D3 attack when charging, being charged, heroic intervention. these attacks last until the end of the fight phase
5. when in terrain, +1 to saving throw (not Invulnerable saves). In addition, whilst this model is in terrain, +1 to invulnerable saves (max of 3+)
6. If there are more friendly models within 3" than enemy models, add 1 to wound rolls for melee weapons
Stratagems: 1CP: In Midnight Clad
- from codex
2CP: Vox Scream
- use at the end of the movement phase, select an enemy model within 18" of a NL unit. until the start of your next movement phase, enemy units cannot be affected by the affected units aura abilities
1CP: Prey on the Weak
- use in shooting or fight phase, select a NL unit. Until the end of the shooting or fight phase, when targeting a unit with a lower Ld characteristic than that unit, add 1 to the hit rolls.
1CP: Hit and Run
- use in charge phase, select a NL unit, they can charge even if they fell back
1CP: We have come for you
- Profile on the Community page
1CP: From the Night
- Use at start of Charge phase, select one NL infantry unit in terrain, until the end of the turn, add 2 to charge rolls, and +1 to hit in Combat.
1CP: Raptor Strike
- Use in charge phase, select one NL Jump pack unit that was set up as reinforcements, roll 3D6 for charge rolls.
1CP: Flay them alive
- Use in the Fight phase, when a unit is destroyed from a NL unit. Until the end of the turn, when a moral test is taken for enemy units within 12" of that NL unit, your opponent rolls and additional D6 and can choose which to discard.
Night Lords Relics:
Flayer: Power Sword model only
- S +1, ap -3, D 2, abilities: each model destroyed from this weapon counts as 2 for moral
Storm Bolt plate: 2+ armour save, always counts as being in cover
Vox Daemonicus: Profile on Community Website
Talons of the Night Terror: Model that can FLY
- S +1, ap -1, D 1, Abilites: D3 additional attacks or D6 if it charged or made a heroic intervention
Scourging chains: Improve the Ap of one melee weapon by 1, in addition, -1 attack for enemy units within 1" of this model
Misery of the Meek: Once per battle: at the start of the Movement phase, model regains D6 lost wounds. in addition gains D3 extra attacks until the start of your next turn.
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Word Bearers Rules:
Spoiler:
Warlord Traits: 1. Add 3" to Warlord Aura Abilities.
2. This Warlord Gains the POSSESSED and DAEMON Keywords. Add 1 to their Strength, Attacks and Movement Characteristics.
3. Profile on the Community Page
4. Add 1 to the Attacks characteristics of friendly WB Possessed Models within 6" of the Warlord
5. When with Warlord loses a wound, roll 1D6, adding 3 if that wound being lost is a mortal wound, on a 6+, that wound is not lost.
6. +1 wound, Start of every player turn, generate D3 lost wounds.
Stratagems: 1CP: Dark Pact
- From Codex
1CP: Malevolent Covenant
- use in Psychic phase, if WB Psyker fails test - test auto passes, and cannot be denied. Psyker takes mortal wound after.
1CP: Apostle of the Dark Council
- Use before battle, friendly WB priest model can knows and can use an additional prayer for the remainder of the battle.
2CP: Cursed Despoilers
- Use after deployment but before the first turn begins, if a WB unit is on the battlefield, select a piece of terrain (other than fortifications) - cannot be used for cover
1CP: Revered Hosts
- Use in Fight phase, select WB Possessed or WB G-Possessed before they are chosen to fight. they all gain +1 Damage to their melee weapons.
1CP: Hexagrammatic Ward
- Use in any phase, after making a saving throw for a WB character, that roll is treated as being a 6. Each WB character can only use this Stratagem once per battle.
1CP: Vengeance For Monarchia
- Use in fight phase, when a WB unit is chosen to fight with, Re-roll hits and wounds against Ultramarine units.
Relics:
Crown of the Blasphemer: +1 Invulnerable save (to a max of 3+). Subtract 1 from Ld characteristics for enemy models within 6".
Baleful Icon: Subtract 2" to charge rolls for enemy units charging friendly WB units within 6" of the relic bearer.
Book of the Reviler: model that is not a Daemon. Before the battle this model can generate 2 chaos boons, re-rolling Spawndom and daemon-hood and duplicate results (does not cost CP)
Malefic Tome: Knows additional power, Add 1 to Psychic tests.
Ashen Axe: Chainaxe only
- S +1, ap -2, D d3, abilities: units within 1" of this relic cannot fallback, unless they're a VEHICLE or TITANIC, or have a minimum move
Epistle of Lorgar: Priest model only, re-roll dice for prayer activation, +1 Ld for friendly WB units within 6"
The 4th Iron Warriors command traits needs a correction. Looking at the video, it says that nullifies -1 rend.
So instead of;
"When resolving an attack made against friendly IW units within 6" and they're benefiting from cover, that attack becomes AP0"
It is something along the lines of;
"When resolving an attack with AP1 made against friendly IW units within 6" and they're benefiting from cover, that attack becomes AP0"
Which is a bit sad, but the alternative would have been too strong I suppose.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, the Alpha Legion stratagem "Renascent Infiltration" only happens in your own movement phase, and removes the unit until (the end of?) your next movement phase.
Also worth noting that the Emperor's Children relic "Remnants of Maraviglia" that gives re-roll to wound rolls within 6" of the priest using it is a once-per-battle ability used instead of praying.
World Eaters really got the short end of the stick. The Warlord Traits, to put it bluntly, almost all suck.
"Add D3 to attacks if there are more enemy units within 3" than friendly units. these extra attacks last until the end of the fight phase."
WE don't need any more attacks. WE already have something like 3 attacks on the Charge base. A WE Chaos Lord is already getting like 6 attacks on the charge; what they need are easier ways to get into close combat.
"+1 charges for friendly WE within 6"
Semi-decent, but it's not enough.
"half damage suffered against melee weapons (rounding up"
If the enemy has gotten the chance to hit you, you've made mistakes.
"6" heroic intervention. and warlord always fights first"
Not terrible.
Stratagems range from not worth using to protect the floor from cat pee to actually decent.
You get a copy pasted Alpha Legion stratagem (which isn't too bad), Skulls for the Skull Throne is super situational, Red Butchers is kind of crap.
Maim! Kill! Burn! is kind of decent.
Wild Fury is actually great; Bezerkers are pretty much guaranteed to mulch anything. I think that alone can salvage this. Stoke the Nails is pretty nifty as well.
Blood for the Blood God is just terrible. Why? You can pay the same CP for the exact same thing from the main rulebook!
Crimson Killer is decent, Banner of Rage isn't terrible, but what you need is easier ways to get into combat rather than even more attacks. Berzerker Glaive isn't terrible. Helm of Furore is 'eh', Bloodhunger looks semi-solid.
Roknar wrote: So with the new Alpha Legion trait, you can technically turn a lord discordant into a 48 inch sniper that also deals out moral wounds. Seems like a phenomenally bad idea, but I find that hilarious.
Otoh , sniping with a magma cutter is probably preeety bonkers
on a more serious note, a biker lord/sorcerer with combi-bolter and vipers wail could be nice.
8 shots before considering shooting twice and half of those are ap-3, 2D and would allow daemon shells too.
To be fair, Dark Apostles don't have a Jump Pack model, which makes sense fluff wise as Jump Packs are super scary to use to those that sold their souls to Chaos.
Marshal Loss wrote: Anybody seeing any top combos for Word Bearers using their traits/relics? Already bought some Ashen Circle axe-rakes for conversions.
You can give their Daemon Prince the Possessed keyword, it works with the Revered Hosts stratagem, you can have +1S +1A Talons that hit for 3dmg on a DP that moves 13", or a Hellforged Sword that hits for 4dmg. It doesn't take a relic slot either.
Methodical Destruction on a hellforged scorpius is 2 * 3w3 shots with reroll number of shots and with reroll 1 to hit and to wound with the new wl trait..... Seems really awesome
Also deepstriking oblits behind cultist bodyguards couls become really great, especially if oblits go down in points with ca19
However -
2CP: Red Butchers
- use before the battle, Select one WE Terminator unit. add 1 to Strength characteristic and they gain the Blood For the Blood God ability (same one from the Khorne Berzerkers)
Seems pretty tasty.
Edit2:
Also seems like we need clarification on the AL "Renascent Infiltration". It seems like it might be a small return to the alpha legion forward operatives, if you can grab a unit from your back line and throw them behind the enemy lines (assuming there is room).
However -
2CP: Red Butchers
- use before the battle, Select one WE Terminator unit. add 1 to Strength characteristic and they gain the Blood For the Blood God ability (same one from the Khorne Berzerkers)
Seems pretty tasty.
yea 10 termies assuming ye going first
move em 9" before the game starts
move 5"
warp time them 5"
you'v now moved 19" turn 1
charge - kill stuff
pop the 6" consolidate strat
fight again (because they can) and kill stuff
oh you can go 6" again
use the fight again strat
kill stuff
move another 6"
- could basically move terminators about 44" in one turn
could be funny, not very reliable/situational though
However -
2CP: Red Butchers
- use before the battle, Select one WE Terminator unit. add 1 to Strength characteristic and they gain the Blood For the Blood God ability (same one from the Khorne Berzerkers)
Seems pretty tasty.
yea 10 termies assuming ye going first
move em 9" before the game starts
move 5"
warp time them 5"
you'v now moved 19" turn 1
charge - kill stuff
pop the 6" consolidate strat
fight again (because they can) and kill stuff
oh you can go 6" again
use the fight again strat
kill stuff
move another 6"
- could basically move terminators about 44" in one turn
could be funny, not very reliable/situational though
Competitive, maybe not. But kinda fun and fitting for world eaters? I think so
I mean, we get propper WE butcher terminators back, AND considering we get terminators cheap (cough chainaxe and combibolter) that squad is really scary.
S6 chainaxes? Hell yea, that squad is the ultimate chaff killer.
Roknar wrote: I wonder if the red butchers stratagem is for the unit only or if you can apply it to characters too.
Would depend on wording. Probably not worth it though. I'm assuming you're thinking of some kind of smash-captain, but if they're a terminator character then they won't have a jetpack, and the jetpack might be more valuable than double the attacks.
WB can give a Warlord +1M&S&A and POSSESSED & DAEMON, or a 6” +1A aura for WB daemons
A WB Stratagem lets you turn a character’s save roll into a 6, another one lets you turn a Sorcerer’s cast roll into the minimum needed to succeed (hello, auto Death Hex!)
WBDA relic lets you reroll prayer rolls and gain +1ld aura, another one gives +1 invuln
There are more and of course the other Legions but these were the standouts for me
Just making a little list of interesting combinations, especially for someone like me who prefers making use of currently 'subpar' units like terminators and raptors/warp talons.
Emperors Children:
Seems like it's best to go for melee with them.
Warlord Trait - Reroll charges, +1S and +1A. Seems good.
I also like the D3 roll-off, where you can get between +3 and +5 bonus attacks.
Stratagems - Combat Elixir seems expensive for what it is. Most strats don't seem that useful, except for Honour the Prince. The +1 to S and D for noise marines might be ok though.
Relics - Armour of Abhorrance to turn your Lord into a Talon to shut down overwatch seems useful. Especially with the reroll charges trait. The raiment seems useful too, full rerolls on hits/wounds/charges.
Teleporting in a unit of terminators or talons with a lord. The stratagem makes their charge more likely to succeed, and one way or another you can turn off overwatch and get a bunch of meaty attacks in. Might work.
World Eaters:
Warlord - +1 to charges? Their traits mostly don't seem that great.
Strats - Red Butchers make terminators pretty scary in melee. You have to get them there though.
Relics - Nothing too exciting
Alpha Legion:
Warlord - -1 to hit against warlord is just generally good. Warlord targeting characters might be useful. Being able to teleport the warlord (or your alpharius bonus warlord) to anywhere on the board might also be pretty useful.
Strats - Conceal might be good, but it's 2CP so too expensive. Renascent Infiltration seems great, but depends on whether you lose your unit for a whole turn (I assume the translation is uncertain on this atm?). Shooting after falling back seems good for 1CP. Getting a second warlord trait is also good.
Relics - Darkscale seems decent for a tanky character. Mindveil might be interesting on a terminator character, changing their 5" movement to 9" on average (range of 3" to 18" on a normally slow character is interesting). Hydras wail might do work against armies that use a lot of stratagems.
Alpha Legion may actually be doing pretty well in this. They seem designed to be ideal for a high-plasma army, as you have a lot of 9" relocations and the ability to shoot after falling back means you can hide your expensive guys in combat for a turn. Seems good overall.
Night Lords:
Warlord - How useful is charging after falling back? I guess they get +1 attack with the new assault rule, or can choose a different target. Mortal wounds on 6's might be the most useful of the bunch, but that's nothing new.
Strats - Charge after fall back again... still not sure if this is useful or not. Perhaps this is for Talons. Jump troop unit getting 3D6 for charge might be useful though, actually making a Talons unit able to do its job.
Relics - Some possibilities here. Getting D6 extra attacks on the charge, along with the trait for mortals on a 6, might add up to something decent.
Voxes seem like they'd be useful against aura heavy armies. Also seems like jump-troops coming from deepstrike can actually work now (which makes a change). But only 1 unit, so probably worth having one decent sized unit of talons and then some MSU raptors for plasma. Which is pretty fluffy.
Overall... I think it's not bad. Nothing hugely game breaking. Its nowhere near as overpowered as the space marine 2.0 dex was. These are the kinds of changes the CSM 2.0 dex should have had to start with. Overall some fun options though. Not sure how some of the numbers will shake out once people work out the stats.
Roknar wrote: I wonder if the red butchers stratagem is for the unit only or if you can apply it to characters too.
Would depend on wording. Probably not worth it though. I'm assuming you're thinking of some kind of smash-captain, but if they're a terminator character then they won't have a jetpack, and the jetpack might be more valuable than double the attacks.
Given the other buffs available, it's probably not worth it over regular terminators yes, but I was thinking about the murdersword.
Assuming you manage to charge, that's an easy 12 mortal wounds before the other character get's to hit back. Considering Leviathan or so characters are a thing, that might be interesting depending on your meta.
NL warp talons sparked my interest
whack the raptor vigis thing on and a couple of strats ye at +4" charge if into cover and 3d6 ... more or less a guaranteed charge.
Being able to give warlords the demon keyword opens up a huge amount of overlapping buffs with demons.
I am disappointed they didn’t give legion specific psychic powers but I guess that’s coming when chaos gets brought up to speed in their codex.
Overall I think every legion got something that buffed it’s play style. Personally I think I’m going to start a emperors children force. 10 noise marines popping out of a dreadclaw, using that +1 strength and damage strat and then endless cacaphony is tastyyyy.
demontalons wrote: Being able to give warlords the demon keyword opens up a huge amount of overlapping buffs with demons.
I am disappointed they didn’t give legion specific psychic powers but I guess that’s coming when chaos gets brought up to speed in their codex.
Overall I think every legion got something that buffed it’s play style. Personally I think I’m going to start a emperors children force. 10 noise marines popping out of a dreadclaw, using that +1 strength and damage strat and then endless cacaphony is tastyyyy.
I was going to say it might be a bit ridiculous to give every Legion psychic powers but then I remembered Space Marines have psychic powers for almost every chapter
What's more ridiculous is thinking Chaos will ever get up to speed though, which is sad.
WB can give a Warlord +1M&S&A and POSSESSED & DAEMON, or a 6” +1A aura for WB daemons
A WB Stratagem lets you turn a character’s save roll into a 6, another one lets you turn a Sorcerer’s cast roll into the minimum needed to succeed (hello, auto Death Hex!)
WBDA relic lets you reroll prayer rolls and gain +1ld aura, another one gives +1 invuln
There are more and of course the other Legions but these were the standouts for me
It's kind of staggering how WB went from 'bottom of the bin' to 'actually this is kind of playable now'
Yeah I'm gonna try it; to be honest, I absolutely adore some of the Forge World Word Bearer models and would love to use Erebus as a Sorcerer; the potential for just demolishing people using Death Hex is insane.
This is all way beyond my expectations. It's nice to be gladly surprised
It seems really CP intensive though.
One of my favorite ideas so far is a las havocs castle in a piece of terrain. Devastation battery for reroll 1s to wound on vehicles on a sorc. A CL with reduce AP1 to AP0 within 6" and some cultists for grot shields. Add in the reduce AP by one strat every turn and you'll effectively still be at 2+ armor saves against AP2 weapons (if the ap reduction stacks between the strat and trait). Grot shield one unit per turn, throw a fnp on another one and let the third one tank the potential shots coming in. Plus, getting a 4+ save against AP3 weapons sound really tasty on its own.
I'd probably throw in 2 DPs with wings and maybe a rhino for 10 of the 15 marines just to up the mobility of the DPs ever so slightly. 600~ points
Discolords are probably a good choice, but I just don't like them being targetable and I personally prefer DPs to be able to cast spells to snipe characters etc.
Gidun wrote: I'd probably throw in 2 DPs with wings and maybe a rhino for 10 of the 15 marines just to up the mobility of the DPs ever so slightly. 600~ points
Discolords are probably a good choice, but I just don't like them being targetable and I personally prefer DPs to be able to cast spells to snipe characters etc.
Honestly i'd skip the rhino if Mobility is what You want.
Discordants Imo need pack saturation,meaning that for All intents You need to run atleast 2-3 .
However I feel Like ca will slap 10-20 pts on them.
The thinking with the rhino is pretty much just to have something stay ahead of the DPs in order to keep them untargetable :p
12"+D6 is enough to not hamper the princes' movement as opposed to the 6"+D6 they'd bring if they were footslogging. The rhino would be unneccesary if you were to bring something other than this batallion with 2 hqs and 3 troops as a melee threat though. But I'm looking at it as basically just a CP farm that can bring something to the table.
Red Butchers look brutal. Not being reliant on blockable teleports or a Spartan is excellent. Brilliant synergy with WT in a soup list. Ironically, a Slaanesh Daemons vanguard with loads of Fiends of Slaanesh could well be their trump card; ten Berzerker Terminators having aneurisms in your deployment zone on T1, and YOU CAN’T RUN AWAY FROM THEM? That’s borderline win-button stuff, especially if Counter units are eliminated.
Faster runners and a smashlord can join the T1 mayhem. Possessed to add some more W2 numbers to the fray, or raptors for cheap numbers. 9”,7/12”, +1” WT boost to charge.
EC Noise Marines look like they’re about to go up a tier. Three of them have more firepower than a Reaper. S9 blastmasters is significant where T8 is common. Honour the Prince plus +2M could make for some interesting gimmicks with Possessed Daemonkin.
Iron Warriors Obliterators look absolutely horrific. Full reroll on all random specs, all Phase, for 1CP? That’s probably getting FAQ’d. Until then, take six with MoS, budget 9CP for virus, VotLW, EC, and Devastation Battery. That extra attacks from 6’s to hit looks nice.
Viper’s Wail sniper ALJPCL using FO, an auto-include? Potentially beat a Vindicare at their own game.
Night Lords can’t seem to make up their mind if they want to tarpit units or scare them out of CC. Those are some contradictory, incompatible abilities - definitely not as easy to use as the stacking point-and-let-go brutality of the others. Vox Scream looks like a hard Counter to Rouboute.
I am right now painting up some Word Bearers Slaaneshi Possessed I’ve had waiting on my desk for months. +3A (HA, VA detachment, WT)? +1D? I am warptiming them on T1, with a *completely guaranteed* cast, with the new Slaanesh Daemon characters, and a Steed Lord with Axe Of You Can’t Run Away (wow, a HH weapon! NICE). DA boosts are great, I can see them helping me build more... mortal lists. Baleful Icon is an interesting buff for a gunline, especially if Warp Talons have entered your metagame. Epistle means that you’ve got a Ld10 aura, right?
So, in summary: we’ve got some very nice new plays, which seem to primarily rely on heavy CP expenditure. There’s not a whole lot of variety within a given Legion’s new tools. We don’t get a Combat Doctrines equivalent; it seems that whilst Adeptus Astartes are being set up as elite, insular, self-contained forces that don’t appreciate having a Loyal 32 ball and chain disrupting their plans, we are set up as either a Black Crusade fielding multiple Legions’ warbands together, or Daemonkin, or insurrectionists with all RaH or BSF mobs generating CP for our Heretics to burn through.
Armies that can block Stratagems could well be strong counters. Maybe even gatekeepers, for some of our lists.
I like Stratagem spam lists, DK, Possessed, and Black Crusades. My Word Bearers plus auxiliary other Legions are happy with this. I can see others with mono Legion collections being unhappy with the tools on offer, though
So I guess we have to wait to see what the actual wording is - but from what I can tell for the psychic test start for WB(?) it only makes it cast and unable to 'fail' if the initial test 'failed.' Who cares? Well you can't use the strat for example if your warptime went off on a 5 - you are stuck with what you rolled which is fully deniable. Obviously for deathhex this is a bit more sexy as the strat has a higher WC so you are more 'likely' to fail and be able to use the strat. But might want to hit the breaks on the idea of an 'undeniable' warptime, as you would have to roll an 'unlikely' 1-4...
Could be totally wrong as not sitting with book in hand - this was based off the read from Guerrilla miniature games...
P.S. If a test is denied it is not considered to have failed... it is instead negated - so you can't for example pop this strat in reaction to a successful deny the witch against you - at least per RAW
If cultists go back down to 4pts in CA its fun times, prob is ye gotta still take em
How essential are all five Spawn? You could squeeze another CP from an Outriders. Dunno how much you need, though
Honestly,why Not Make a full brigade instead?
The upgrading of Battalions and Brigades made Brigades inefficient
A Brigade (3-5HQ) yields as much CP as two battalions plus two of vanguard, Outriders, or spearhead (6-10HQ)
CSM are an army of aura & spell buff & beatstick Heroes, you generally get more out of 6 Heroes and 12 others than 5 Heroes and 15 others, especially where you had to make a bunch of the others into a token cheap slot filler
Heck, Disco Lord jamborees are viable, and they’re never squeezing into a Brigade
It’s not unviable, but even if you’re not going soup/Black Crusade/DK, or using multiple Specialist Detachments, it’s generally better to compartmentalise and prune the slot fillers to make the backbone units better. Like, a Battalion with three HQ and a full size Oblits unit is going to do more than splitting the Oblits apart to fill out 3 HS.
One thing where a Brigade can be handy is where you’ve got a cheap CD detachment. Like a Gnarlmaw, or three Heralds. Brigade can help you meet the detachment limits in formal play
Very interesting developments for AL Discolords and Oblits. Both get a huge defensive buff: A single Disco can now hit -3 to hit that can't be stopped (trait, native and DA prayer). That's getting close to AL being able to drop the pack mentality and run a single Disco instead of 2-3, which is a huge difference.
Oblits can't be targeted T1, and now when they drop can count as characters, for all intents and purposes, for 2cp. That's a huge buff. Combined with ALDS denial and movement shenanigans, I can foresee AL lists making it very hard to be defanged. That is the primary letdown of CSM afterall, so this could be big news.
grouchoben wrote: Very interesting developments for AL Discolords and Oblits. Both get a huge defensive buff: A single Disco can now hit -3 to hit that can't be stopped (trait, native and DA prayer). That's getting close to AL being able to drop the pack mentality and run a single Disco instead of 2-3, which is a huge difference.
Oblits can't be targeted T1, and now when they drop can count as characters, for all intents and purposes, for 2cp. That's a huge buff. Combined with ALDS denial and movement shenanigans, I can foresee AL lists making it very hard to be defanged. That is the primary letdown of CSM afterall, so this could be big news.
Definately thinking that AL havocks and oblits have a lot more oprions now. Really like the sniper bike lord too. He can reliably plink characters off whilst being fairly resilient to sniping himself and if he gets tarpitted can fall back and shoot for 1cp!
grouchoben wrote: Very interesting developments for AL Discolords and Oblits. Both get a huge defensive buff: A single Disco can now hit -3 to hit that can't be stopped (trait, native and DA prayer). That's getting close to AL being able to drop the pack mentality and run a single Disco instead of 2-3, which is a huge difference.
Oblits can't be targeted T1, and now when they drop can count as characters, for all intents and purposes, for 2cp. That's a huge buff. Combined with ALDS denial and movement shenanigans, I can foresee AL lists making it very hard to be defanged. That is the primary letdown of CSM afterall, so this could be big news.
Definately thinking that AL havocks and oblits have a lot more oprions now. Really like the sniper bike lord too. He can reliably plink characters off whilst being fairly resilient to sniping himself and if he gets tarpitted can fall back and shoot for 1cp!
Terminator Alpha Lord with the Combi Relic I guess for always shooting in full effect too? I dunno.
For anyone interested, I did an in-depth review (on my Chaos-focused YouTube channel) of the new rules and what I think are the best new abilities and tricks for Chaos:
Another AL goodie, what does everyone think of Arkos in combination with We Are Alpharius strat? Make Arkos not the warlord but give him the Flames of Spite trait for mortal wounds on a 4+ for a hidden infiltrating chaf n' char killer?
Edit: mortals on a 4+ with VOTLW, normally mortals on a 5+
Honestly, the deployment shenanigans for Alpha Legion singlehandedly make them the most interesting imo in conjunction with ambush and the additional warlord trait.
The strongest I dunno but interesting for turning the faction on ist head.
Not Online!!! wrote: Honestly, the deployment shenanigans for Alpha Legion singlehandedly make them the most interesting imo in conjunction with ambush and the additional warlord trait.
The strongest I dunno but interesting for turning the faction on ist head.
Someone else said this, but (and this might just be me being bad at the game) I'm not seeing the huge value in being able to redeploy in the deployment zone. Sure, there are things you can do with it against an unwary opponent, such as making them put all their gunlines in one corner and then moving your units out of the gun lines... but most boards don't really let that kind of thing happen anyway.
Seems like you'd get a lot more value out of a -3 to hit warlord, or a smash-lord with mortals on 6's and ability to snipe. Or being able to teleport your warlord behind enemy lines. Actually all of those sound pretty cool haha.
grouchoben wrote: Very interesting developments for AL Discolords and Oblits. Both get a huge defensive buff: A single Disco can now hit -3 to hit that can't be stopped (trait, native and DA prayer). That's getting close to AL being able to drop the pack mentality and run a single Disco instead of 2-3, which is a huge difference.
Oblits can't be targeted T1, and now when they drop can count as characters, for all intents and purposes, for 2cp. That's a huge buff. Combined with ALDS denial and movement shenanigans, I can foresee AL lists making it very hard to be defanged. That is the primary letdown of CSM afterall, so this could be big news.
Definately thinking that AL havocks and oblits have a lot more oprions now. Really like the sniper bike lord too. He can reliably plink characters off whilst being fairly resilient to sniping himself and if he gets tarpitted can fall back and shoot for 1cp!
Terminator Alpha Lord with the Combi Relic I guess for always shooting in full effect too? I dunno.
Terminator or biker lord, Terminator for guarteed shots, biker for an extra combi botler!
Ist's cool and that's the point Imo, better cool rules for specific uses and archetypes then broken bs that so many of the recent marine supplements were.
Also honorable mentions, WB, because they sonehow made them interesting
grouchoben wrote: Very interesting developments for AL Discolords and Oblits. Both get a huge defensive buff: A single Disco can now hit -3 to hit that can't be stopped (trait, native and DA prayer). That's getting close to AL being able to drop the pack mentality and run a single Disco instead of 2-3, which is a huge difference.
Oblits can't be targeted T1, and now when they drop can count as characters, for all intents and purposes, for 2cp. That's a huge buff. Combined with ALDS denial and movement shenanigans, I can foresee AL lists making it very hard to be defanged. That is the primary letdown of CSM afterall, so this could be big news.
Definately thinking that AL havocks and oblits have a lot more oprions now. Really like the sniper bike lord too. He can reliably plink characters off whilst being fairly resilient to sniping himself and if he gets tarpitted can fall back and shoot for 1cp!
Terminator Alpha Lord with the Combi Relic I guess for always shooting in full effect too? I dunno.
Terminator or biker lord, Terminator for guarteed shots, biker for an extra combi botler!
It works on all ranged weapons so you could use a LD with baleflamer or chaos hellwright on dark abberant if you want to get close 3 high stength shots and a flamer is pretty funny.
But bike lord gets 1.5 mortal wounds without the relic bolter!
Biker lord wins it imo - great great movement, pip of toughness, and most importantly 8 chances out to 24" to proc the extra mortal wound on a natural hit of 6. He's legitimately scary to characters, and that's exactly what lists need to have a hope in hell of beating SM armies...
oof word bearers smash apostle are looking possible. Take the double prayer buff, cast omen of potency and the khorne prayer and give them the cursed crozius. Enjoy 7 str8 -4ap dmg3 attacks, rerolling wounds against imperium. Sprinkle with a warlord trait and maybe the possessed strat too for a savage melee hq
WinterLantern wrote: oof word bearers smash apostle are looking possible. Take the double prayer buff, cast omen of potency and the khorne prayer and give them the cursed crozius. Enjoy 7 str8 -4ap dmg3 attacks, rerolling wounds against imperium. Sprinkle with a warlord trait and maybe the possessed strat too for a savage melee hq
Until we realise that da have no inherent Mobility Option..
Otoh the sniper AL Lord,is like the ultimate troll.
A sniping autocannon? Hell yeah. Or the bolter relic ontop a bikerlord? Oof
Nah just take a rhino party wagon with some possessed for the apostle. It's more for contesting the centre of the board with a anvil unit whilst ya jump sorcerers and demons do the legwork
WinterLantern wrote: Nah just take a rhino party wagon with some possessed for the apostle. It's more for contesting the centre of the board with a anvil unit whilst ya jump sorcerers and demons do the legwork
I doubt it to be competitve but I feel that WB daemonkin lists are gonna be fun.
Altough what about dakka iw daenonengine lists? Now possible?
WinterLantern wrote: Nah just take a rhino party wagon with some possessed for the apostle. It's more for contesting the centre of the board with a anvil unit whilst ya jump sorcerers and demons do the legwork
Except that, when you do that, you loose all the apostle buffs because of the weird timing. It's such an awkward unit.
WinterLantern wrote: oof word bearers smash apostle are looking possible. Take the double prayer buff, cast omen of potency and the khorne prayer and give them the cursed crozius. Enjoy 7 str8 -4ap dmg3 attacks, rerolling wounds against imperium. Sprinkle with a warlord trait and maybe the possessed strat too for a savage melee hq
Until we realise that da have no inherent Mobility Option..
Sure they do, take Possessed WT and they can Naruto run with the Possessed
It’s not much, but nearby Slaaneshi Daemon HQ and they gain advance and charge on top. 8+3D6” slapping radius
WinterLantern wrote: oof word bearers smash apostle are looking possible. Take the double prayer buff, cast omen of potency and the khorne prayer and give them the cursed crozius. Enjoy 7 str8 -4ap dmg3 attacks, rerolling wounds against imperium. Sprinkle with a warlord trait and maybe the possessed strat too for a savage melee hq
Until we realise that da have no inherent Mobility Option..
Sure they do, take Possessed WT and they can Naruto run with the Possessed
It’s not much, but nearby Slaaneshi Daemon HQ and they gain advance and charge on top. 8+3D6” slapping radius
How'd an AL jump Lord be with twin Plasma Pistols be? Or a jump lord with the Alpha Legion relic bolter? It seems like there's a lot of potential AL sniper lords.
It's unfortunate the army doesn't have a proper sniper rifle; but there's still a lot of fun assassin builds.
blood reaper wrote: How'd an AL jump Lord be with twin Plasma Pistols be? Or a jump lord with the Alpha Legion relic bolter? It seems like there's a lot of potential AL sniper lords.
It's unfortunate the army doesn't have a proper sniper rifle; but there's still a lot of fun assassin builds.
I too am wondering what the best option for an AL Vindicare-Lord might be... is the relic bolter actually the best option? 24" range seemed limiting for a warlord. A Disco with the autocannon has possibilities though, but you'd really want a Disco murdering people up close. Tough balance to find.
lindsay40k wrote: It’s got to be the biker Lord with relic combi-Bolter, four shots from that and four from the bike, all at long range, all after 14” move
Ambush Strat means that deep striking characters are in double danger
I thought biker lords were gone now? Where did they get reintroduced?
lindsay40k wrote: It’s got to be the biker Lord with relic combi-Bolter, four shots from that and four from the bike, all at long range, all after 14” move
Ambush Strat means that deep striking characters are in double danger
I thought biker lords were gone now? Where did they get reintroduced?
Yeah iirc aren't they from the index, and aren't characters from the index restricted from taking artefacts?
lindsay40k wrote: It’s got to be the biker Lord with relic combi-Bolter, four shots from that and four from the bike, all at long range, all after 14” move
Ambush Strat means that deep striking characters are in double danger
I thought biker lords were gone now? Where did they get reintroduced?
Yeah iirc aren't they from the index, and aren't characters from the index restricted from taking artefacts?
lindsay40k wrote: It’s got to be the biker Lord with relic combi-Bolter, four shots from that and four from the bike, all at long range, all after 14” move
Ambush Strat means that deep striking characters are in double danger
I thought biker lords were gone now? Where did they get reintroduced?
Yeah iirc aren't they from the index, and aren't characters from the index restricted from taking artefacts?
They are index-only.
But you can still give them Relics.
I thought index units were narrative only now, essentially removed from the game. Fine for friendly games, but then anything is fine for friendly games.
No double-combi options. Termi-lord might be the best option, or the Disco autocannon perhaps.
GW’s words were ‘we won’t be recommending Legends units for competitive tournaments’
So yeah, if it’s formal, teleporting around a Terminator may well be the best choice
Not feeling it for a sniper Disco Lord, though. Not a fan of having a sniper be freely targetable by every big gun with LOS in a metagame that not long ago focussed on killing a Knight a turn
lindsay40k wrote: GW’s words were ‘we won’t be recommending Legends units for competitive tournaments’
So yeah, if it’s formal, teleporting around a Terminator may well be the best choice
Not feeling it for a sniper Disco Lord, though. Not a fan of having a sniper be freely targetable by every big gun with LOS in a metagame that not long ago focussed on killing a Knight a turn
Sniper Disco Lord feels like a bit of a stretch in all honesty: the auto cannon isn't bad but it seems a bit expensive and considering that it'd probably just be put to better use wrecking stuff in CC.
blood reaper wrote: How'd an AL jump Lord be with twin Plasma Pistols be? Or a jump lord with the Alpha Legion relic bolter? It seems like there's a lot of potential AL sniper lords.
It's unfortunate the army doesn't have a proper sniper rifle; but there's still a lot of fun assassin builds.
I too am wondering what the best option for an AL Vindicare-Lord might be... is the relic bolter actually the best option? 24" range seemed limiting for a warlord. A Disco with the autocannon has possibilities though, but you'd really want a Disco murdering people up close. Tough balance to find.
Would have to be Alpha Legion Biker Lord, Chainsword Relic + another Combi-Bolter. Weight of fire of 8 shots to get Mortal Wounds seems more reliable at this point.
So for an AL biker sniper lord are the bullet relics better or is the relic combi bolter better? The relic bullets apply to both of his combi bolters...I'd be interested to see the math.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Honestly, a warpsmith isn't the worst candidate in the world either; still bs 2+ and mid-game he might even be in range to snipe with his meltagun >.> If you need to save points especially; not as good as the lord on bike, but half the price.
A hellwright on abeyant with mindveil might be an option, the warplance is nasty stuff and he doesn't suffer to hit penalties for moving. And you get extra wounds on a 5+ with VotLW
Regarding the WBDA - don't build him as a pure beatstick because as mentioned wasting a relic and WT on him doesn't improve his mobility. However, with the strat you can have the default prayer, Khorne prayer, Omen of Potency and another one of your choice (-1 or +1 to hit most likely).
Then put him with a unit walking up the board (CSMs w dual chaincannons maybe?), and if his unit ever gets charged or they make it to combat he's dropping 7 S7 AP-4 D2 attacks which is good enough to account for most of a squad of Intercessors.
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