Ok so I have pretty much sworn off 40k since the great Marine ascension in the summer.
So as a silver lining to having the Word Bearer trait left horrendously terrible can you field a mixed legion Detachment to use all these cool relics/strats and power it with Red Corsairs/Daemon Battalion(s)?
Because that could at least be a fun modeling/painting project before getting eviscerated by the Loyalists
Eldarain wrote: Ok so I have pretty much sworn off 40k since the great Marine ascension in the summer.
So as a silver lining to having the Word Bearer trait left horrendously terrible can you field a mixed legion Detachment to use all these cool relics/strats and power it with Red Corsairs/Daemon Battalion(s)?
Because that could at least be a fun modeling/painting project before getting eviscerated by the Loyalists
You need a pure detachment to unlock these strats.
to my knowledge.
Eldarain wrote: Ok so I have pretty much sworn off 40k since the great Marine ascension in the summer.
So as a silver lining to having the Word Bearer trait left horrendously terrible can you field a mixed legion Detachment to use all these cool relics/strats and power it with Red Corsairs/Daemon Battalion(s)?
Because that could at least be a fun modeling/painting project before getting eviscerated by the Loyalists
You need a pure detachment to unlock these strats.
to my knowledge.
You can mix chaos space marines but you don't get any legion traits. You can't mix with other heratic astartes or use auxiliary support.
Not Online!!! wrote: Yeah but supposedly , to unlock these, you need a pure detachment (AL only or WB,etc.)
Ah sorry, didn't think the psychic awakening would be different from codex strats and relics but that makes sense.
Which makes them,with the whole shabang of WT traits needed , quite annoying considering the ammount of detachment and CP you need to invest.
AND, more importanty, Most of these legions , can NOT, get two + warlord traits , Alpha legion is the only one that got a Stratagem for an additional trait.
Wondering if anyone has the exact wording of the NL stuff because perhaps you can combine the WL trait and the Relic to give your DP a 0 save?!
e.g. when in cover +1 save WL trait and +2 save always count in cover relic
perhaps the WL trait specifically says 'terrain'
Also thinking are EC now a bit of an auto include for CC armies?
Can get a DP with warp time moving 28" with a 'minimum' 7" charge that you can't over watch against
or maybe better DS a sorcerer or lord 9" from a knight death hex him,
DS sme other shotty / choppy stuff near
charge in - more or less never not gonna get in with the 6" 1cp strat.
charge the other stuff in free from OW
another thing i worked out is an EC sorcerer could be funny:
combat drug em: +1S
WL trait for +1s +1a on charge
Casts Dia strength on him self +2S +1 attack
Relic force sword - S User, ap - 4, D d3, abilities: can chose to X2 strength but -1 to hit.
So charging a knight:
3 + 1 + 1 + 1 (6) attacks
double ye boy up
4 + 1 + 1 + 2 x2 (16!!!! strength) so wounding on 2's
-4 d3 damage
down side is ofc ye hitting on 4's and the damage is a bit meh (can maybe Prescience)
unless i have the mod multipliers wrong.
Might be better to combo up with a sorcerer buffing (Dia stength, prescience) a lord with the relic and the trait
Extra relic it so the lord is immune to overwatch.
3cp
7 attacks hitting on a 2 with a re-roll
s16 -4 d3 dmg should half kill a knight in one turn
Latro_ wrote: Also thinking are EC now a bit of an auto include for CC armies?
Can get a DP with warp time moving 28" with a 'minimum' 7" charge that you can't over watch against
They've got incredible rules, but a DP is still really pricey if you're throwing him into certain death. The real challenge will still be not getting shot to pieces by cheap SM firepower backed by re-rolls on everything!
Possibly interesting facet of the WB Possessed boosts: because they’re based on auras and stacking 1CP Stratagems, they’re extremely robust against counter-Strats
DE & GSC would have to pretty much burn off their entire stock to disarm a Gal Vorbak blitz. Even then, those are not armies that are exactly terrified of 2W melee, right? One of the GSC punchy units - them hulk things - is specifically resistant to medium damage attacks, and most of the rest rely on invuln dodges (which DK Ritualists or a Nurgle Daemons ally can already bypass)
Other CSM armies that are more dependent on a keystone Strat, however, can have it embargoed. AL may, ironically, get accustomed to a de facto 12” no fly zone, then have it denied by a GSC that out-insurrects them with a xenos pileon. That’s going to be difficult to build for in TAC comp, you’ll want like a RCC Havocs squad to lay down Ambushes & Punishing Volleys when Scrambled Coordinates fails - they’ll struggle to embargo all three
Moving back to WB, I like to field unconventional WB armies - all-mortal Brigade, armoured Company, Helbrute horde - and super-Apostles, auto or +1 to cast WT/DH/Prescience, 3++ smashlords, no falling back even if you’re flying? These are going to be very nice elements making it feel a little less like a low level gauntlet of NPCs
I guess, moving forwards, BL are going to be the Legion of Three Warlords or Supertough Disco Lords, and some tasty Relics? Still got possibly the worst Tactical Objectives I’ve ever seen
The fact that none of our Legion strats and TacObjs have cards makes all of this horribly newbie-unfriendly, by the way. I’m introducing a friend to 40K, and all of the beginner accessibility of early 8th has been thrown right out the window by ‘okay, now crossreference with your fourth A4 hardcover art book that’s mainly about other armies…’
The GSC counter strat got nerfed hard 2 weeks after the book dropped. It can only be used once per battle. So you could use the 12" no fly zone strat, which they would need to counter, then once they deploy you just blow them off the table with the auspex scan strat.
GSC unofficially died with the new marine codex though, the book just doesn't function as a whole with all the counters the new marines brought with them. So it really should be one of the last things you should be concerned about.
As for DE, they don't really care about possessed. They will let you hit a cheap venom wall or throw away screen then remove the possessed pretty casually, and or relocate. Thats if the guy doesn't have fliers, which he could use to screen you out as well first turn. So yea, I don't think they care much either. A smash lord will keep the planes honest though, and with many players swapping toward "test of skill" on their air wing they will be less durable as well.
Just looking at IW oblitorators, they have crazy potential for damage output.
Even though it's an investment you could run a squad of 3 with daemon prince (with WL trait and prescience)
Spend 5 CP on strats, VotLW, EC, tank hunters and rampant techno virus.
That's 36 shots, getting around 41 hits, and averaging enough damge to do 58 wounds (43 if 4++) to knights!! It'd blow through Iron hands with no difficulty, even if you have to target the ironstone unit. And even crazier, you can hide them behind 30 cultists and keep them safe to do it all again!!
Maybe a IW patrol will get seen in a lot of soup lists.
Hold up, you Daemonkinners - deploying a few Night Lords Warp Talons at the start, with Gnarlmaw or Slaaneshi Daemon HQs nearby, can enable a 14+3D6” charge that can then forbid fall backs, even for flying things, WITHOUT WARPTIME
That’s an absolute game-changer for T1 charge lists, especially Nurgle ones that can’t field Fiends of Slaanesh, or Slaaneshi ones facing enemies that hide upstairs from said Beasts
Automatically Appended Next Post: Alternatively: a WB Jumplord with Ashen Axe & Possessed WT. 13+3D6” T1 charge
Have a Host Raptorial Smashlord (or, perhaps, Sorcerer - love that auto cast Death Hex) fly alongside, and that’s 15+3D6”
I think a big CSM tactic is going to be slingshotting up the board using enemy screening units to serve as cover from gunlines.
If those screening units can't fall back, enemy castles can't target whatever is in combat with them. So Ashen Axe will do the job, the NL "We have come for you" stratagem, and maybe some more that I am forgetting?
I think night lords are the hidden gem. You can use vox scream off any model, so a flier like a hell talon of xiphon can get in range easily and shut down a dudes linch pin aura. Then The warlord can take the relic vox scrambler and move/warp time (warp time would obviously only come into play turn 1 to set this combo up a bit easier for turn 2) to within 6" of something like space marine infiltrators and all of their 12" omniscrambler auras become 1" range lmao. Since he moves up at the start of the movement phase, you get to THEN drop in your raptors/warp talons/smash lord on terrain, from your host raptoral and pop the 1 CP +2 to charge for a plus 3 to charge. You can then use any of the other tricks to pin them into melee or shut down overwatch. I honestly think they have the right tools in the marine meta, because while IW (which I play btw) and Alpha legion have amazing damage output, they still fall short of the new marines output and I think you lose the battle of attrition if you play by their rules.
lindsay40k wrote: Hold up, you Daemonkinners - deploying a few Night Lords Warp Talons at the start, with Gnarlmaw or Slaaneshi Daemon HQs nearby, can enable a 14+3D6” charge that can then forbid fall backs, even for flying things, WITHOUT WARPTIME
That’s an absolute game-changer for T1 charge lists, especially Nurgle ones that can’t field Fiends of Slaanesh, or Slaaneshi ones facing enemies that hide upstairs from said Beasts
Automatically Appended Next Post: Alternatively: a WB Jumplord with Ashen Axe & Possessed WT. 13+3D6” T1 charge
Have a Host Raptorial Smashlord (or, perhaps, Sorcerer - love that auto cast Death Hex) fly alongside, and that’s 15+3D6”
Unfortunately, deny overwatch from Warp Talons is only when they come in from deep strike.
Red Corsair wrote: I honestly think they have the right tools in the marine meta, because while IW (which I play btw) and Alpha legion have amazing damage output, they still fall short of the new marines output and I think you lose the battle of attrition if you play by their rules.
This was my thinking too. Why hit marines exactly at the point where they are strongest? Once they're pinned in melee, they don't get any value from their gucci doctrines or fancy guns and you can leverage your generally superior combat output with stratagems and DttFE.
So I'm looking at Gorefather a bit closer, and it might be garbage thanks to awful GW rules writing. Given that "attack sequence" doesn't exist, the closest thing I can see is step 5 of the fight phase.
Worst interpretation on an Lord would be 4 attacks. Roll 4 to hit rolls & then all manage to hit. Then due to Gorefather's ability, if the first wound roll is an unmodified 6, you do 1 strength+2 ap-2 damage 3 wound, plus 3 mortal wounds then end the attack sequence, losing the remaining 3 attacks and potentially the wound you just rolled, as the opponent cannot allocate the wound, roll a save, or inflict damage. Extra worst case it literally ends the Fight phase as it ends the sequence, preventing you from going to the next step. Hilarious way to prevent enemy attacks.
This is going to need a FAQ fairly quickly. I'm betting there is a bunch more broken in this book. My area has like 4 TFGs so I know they'll bring this up if they're present for a game I use this thing.
StarHunter25 wrote: So I'm looking at Gorefather a bit closer, and it might be garbage thanks to awful GW rules writing. Given that "attack sequence" doesn't exist, the closest thing I can see is step 5 of the fight phase.
Worst interpretation on an Lord would be 4 attacks. Roll 4 to hit rolls & then all manage to hit. Then due to Gorefather's ability, if the first wound roll is an unmodified 6, you do 1 strength+2 ap-2 damage 3 wound, plus 3 mortal wounds then end the attack sequence, losing the remaining 3 attacks and potentially the wound you just rolled, as the opponent cannot allocate the wound, roll a save, or inflict damage. Extra worst case it literally ends the Fight phase as it ends the sequence, preventing you from going to the next step. Hilarious way to prevent enemy attacks.
This is going to need a FAQ fairly quickly. I'm betting there is a bunch more broken in this book. My area has like 4 TFGs so I know they'll bring this up if they're present for a game I use this thing.
I mentions attack sequence in the core rules. It's under shooting phase and fight phase. It's just the roll to hit, wound, save, inflict damage sequence.
The Gorefather rules are just saying that you don't then add on nornal damage when you roll a wound roll of 6.
StarHunter25 wrote: So I'm looking at Gorefather a bit closer, and it might be garbage thanks to awful GW rules writing. Given that "attack sequence" doesn't exist, the closest thing I can see is step 5 of the fight phase.
Worst interpretation on an Lord would be 4 attacks. Roll 4 to hit rolls & then all manage to hit. Then due to Gorefather's ability, if the first wound roll is an unmodified 6, you do 1 strength+2 ap-2 damage 3 wound, plus 3 mortal wounds then end the attack sequence, losing the remaining 3 attacks and potentially the wound you just rolled, as the opponent cannot allocate the wound, roll a save, or inflict damage. Extra worst case it literally ends the Fight phase as it ends the sequence, preventing you from going to the next step. Hilarious way to prevent enemy attacks.
This is going to need a FAQ fairly quickly. I'm betting there is a bunch more broken in this book. My area has like 4 TFGs so I know they'll bring this up if they're present for a game I use this thing.
I mentions attack sequence in the core rules. It's under shooting phase and fight phase. It's just the roll to hit, wound, save, inflict damage sequence.
The Gorefather rules are just saying that you don't then add on nornal damage when you roll a wound roll of 6.
So it does mean that if you hit with all 4 attacks, but you roll a single 6, then you get 3 mortal wounds but you dont roll for any of your other wounds etc. On average 3 mortal wounds is probably better than what you'd get from 4 hits, I guess. Still feels odd though. Cos you -could- have gotten 4 wounds out of it, if you were lucky with rolls for wounds.
Yoyoyo wrote: Nah -- your limit is 12 Mortal Wounds if you have 4 attacks. Each attack roll has its own separate attack sequence.
Exactly, I could see a rules lawyer trying to argue that it's the same sequence if you fast roll them (like everybody does) but you could easily roll each attack separately if someone tries it on.
lindsay40k wrote: Hold up, you Daemonkinners - deploying a few Night Lords Warp Talons at the start, with Gnarlmaw or Slaaneshi Daemon HQs nearby, can enable a 14+3D6” charge that can then forbid fall backs, even for flying things, WITHOUT WARPTIME
That’s an absolute game-changer for T1 charge lists, especially Nurgle ones that can’t field Fiends of Slaanesh, or Slaaneshi ones facing enemies that hide upstairs from said Beasts
Automatically Appended Next Post: Alternatively: a WB Jumplord with Ashen Axe & Possessed WT. 13+3D6” T1 charge
Have a Host Raptorial Smashlord (or, perhaps, Sorcerer - love that auto cast Death Hex) fly alongside, and that’s 15+3D6”
Unfortunately, deny overwatch from Warp Talons is only when they come in from deep strike.
Doesn’t matter. A spiky anvil unit eats the overwatch, the Warp Talons join them, and they hug the enemy & play tag with gunner units to shut down shooting
StarHunter25 wrote: So I'm looking at Gorefather a bit closer, and it might be garbage thanks to awful GW rules writing. Given that "attack sequence" doesn't exist, the closest thing I can see is step 5 of the fight phase.
Worst interpretation on an Lord would be 4 attacks. Roll 4 to hit rolls & then all manage to hit. Then due to Gorefather's ability, if the first wound roll is an unmodified 6, you do 1 strength+2 ap-2 damage 3 wound, plus 3 mortal wounds then end the attack sequence, losing the remaining 3 attacks and potentially the wound you just rolled, as the opponent cannot allocate the wound, roll a save, or inflict damage. Extra worst case it literally ends the Fight phase as it ends the sequence, preventing you from going to the next step. Hilarious way to prevent enemy attacks.
This is going to need a FAQ fairly quickly. I'm betting there is a bunch more broken in this book. My area has like 4 TFGs so I know they'll bring this up if they're present for a game I use this thing.
I mentions attack sequence in the core rules. It's under shooting phase and fight phase. It's just the roll to hit, wound, save, inflict damage sequence.
The Gorefather rules are just saying that you don't then add on nornal damage when you roll a wound roll of 6.
I just have the Battle Primer on my phone atm, so that might be different. Only things I see are Shooting Sequence and Fight Sequence. Still, losing 12 damage for 3 mortal wounds is stupid.
Also, if they wanted it to resolve as mortal wounds instead of normal damage then why not just say that? There are a few places where that is the wording already, so why not here? It's dumb.
"When resolving an attack made by this weapon... the target suffers 3 mortal wounds and the attack sequence ends."
Each individual attack has a sequence, which is roll to hit, roll to wound, allocate wounds, roll to save, and resolve damage. I think it's pretty safe to say the "attack sequence" refers to each individual attack which you're resolving at the time.
Then why word it so oddly? Why not just say "unmodified wound roll of 6 inflicts 3 mortal wounds to the target unit instead of normal damage" ?
I'm overthinking this because of the nearly half dozen TFG tier rules lawyers in my play area. They will bring this up. In addition, what if I fast roll? Does a single 6 in my wound pool kill the rest of dice?
I should probably plop this in YMDC as to not clog this thread up.
StarHunter25 wrote: Then why word it so oddly? Why not just say "unmodified wound roll of 6 inflicts 3 mortal wounds to the target unit instead of normal damage" ?
I'm overthinking this because of the nearly half dozen TFG tier rules lawyers in my play area. They will bring this up. In addition, what if I fast roll? Does a single 6 in my wound pool kill the rest of dice?
Considering that, if they are doing it and playing marines just get another opponent.
StarHunter25 wrote: Then why word it so oddly? Why not just say "unmodified wound roll of 6 inflicts 3 mortal wounds to the target unit instead of normal damage" ?
I'm overthinking this because of the nearly half dozen TFG tier rules lawyers in my play area. They will bring this up. In addition, what if I fast roll? Does a single 6 in my wound pool kill the rest of dice?
I should probably plop this in YMDC as to not clog this thread up.
Because then they would get a save before taking the damage (in this case, 3 mortal wounds). They word it this way consistently across all books, and in Age of Sigmar as well.
"When resolving an attack made by this weapon... the target suffers 3 mortal wounds and the attack sequence ends."
Each individual attack has a sequence, which is roll to hit, roll to wound, allocate wounds, roll to save, and resolve damage. I think it's pretty safe to say the "attack sequence" refers to each individual attack which you're resolving at the time.
I have to agree with the StarHunter. They already have a wording for this - "inflict 3 mortal wounds instead of normal damage". Its the wording they've used for all of 8th edition. Why change it into something so janky sounding.
I agree that I would play it as each 'hit' being a separate attack, so you could end up getting one 6 (3 mortal wounds) and three other normal hits that resolve normally (going through wounds/saves/damage).
StarHunter25 wrote: Then why word it so oddly? Why not just say "unmodified wound roll of 6 inflicts 3 mortal wounds to the target unit instead of normal damage" ?
I'm overthinking this because of the nearly half dozen TFG tier rules lawyers in my play area. They will bring this up. In addition, what if I fast roll? Does a single 6 in my wound pool kill the rest of dice?
I should probably plop this in YMDC as to not clog this thread up.
Because then they would get a save before taking the damage (in this case, 3 mortal wounds). They word it this way consistently across all books, and in Age of Sigmar as well.
No they wouldn't, cos you don't get any saves against mortal wounds. Except for a few special snowflakes that get saves against mortal wounds... which I guess they wouldn't get a save against this?
What about Feel No Pain? Does that come as part of the 'attack sequence'?
If so, gorefather might end up being decent, especially against death guard and other FnP / special save characters. ..
StarHunter25 wrote: Then why word it so oddly? Why not just say "unmodified wound roll of 6 inflicts 3 mortal wounds to the target unit instead of normal damage" ?
I'm overthinking this because of the nearly half dozen TFG tier rules lawyers in my play area. They will bring this up. In addition, what if I fast roll? Does a single 6 in my wound pool kill the rest of dice?
I should probably plop this in YMDC as to not clog this thread up.
Because then they would get a save before taking the damage (in this case, 3 mortal wounds). They word it this way consistently across all books, and in Age of Sigmar as well.
No they wouldn't, cos you don't get any saves against mortal wounds. Except for a few special snowflakes that get saves against mortal wounds... which I guess they wouldn't get a save against this?
What about Feel No Pain? Does that come as part of the 'attack sequence'?
If so, gorefather might end up being decent, especially against death guard and other FnP / special save characters. ..
So, the attack sequence is
Roll hit > roll wound > roll save > take damage.
If you deal 3 mortal wounds INSTEAD of damage, you change it to
Roll hit > roll wound > roll save > take mortal wounds.
Feel No Pain happens after the take damage step, where you roll for each point of damage dealt by either wounds or mortal wounds.
In addition, each attack follows the entire attack sequence, so if you roll a 6 on your first of 4 attacks, THAT SINGLE attack sequence ends and you deal 3 mortal wounds, and then you perform the attack sequence for the next 3.
What about Feel No Pain? Does that come as part of the 'attack sequence'?
If so, gorefather might end up being decent, especially against death guard and other FnP / special save characters. ..
Why. Why break it more. This 1 point chainaxe is causing enough trouble. 6 to wound literally prevents the mortal wounds from doing damage, as the attack sequence ends preventing the wounds from being allocated.
Only reference is from the BRBfaq.
Page 181 – Ignoring Wounds
Add the following as a boxout on this page:
‘Ignoring Wounds
Some units have abilities that allow them to ignore
the damage suffered each time it loses a wound (e.g.
Disgustingly Resilient, The Flesh is Weak and Tenacious
Survivor). If a model has more than one such ability, you
can only use one of those abilities each time the model
loses a wound.’
So, the attack sequence is
Roll hit > roll wound > roll save > take damage.
If you deal 3 mortal wounds INSTEAD of damage, you change it to
Roll hit > roll wound > roll save > take mortal wounds.
Feel No Pain happens after the take damage step, where you roll for each point of damage dealt by either wounds or mortal wounds.
In addition, each attack follows the entire attack sequence, so if you roll a 6 on your first of 4 attacks, THAT SINGLE attack sequence ends and you deal 3 mortal wounds, and then you perform the attack sequence for the next 3.
What? No it isn't? (At least I don't think it is..)
If you roll a 6 to hit, then it's :
Roll hit > take mortal wounds.
You don't roll to wound, or for saves, for mortal wounds. At all. Ever. Doesn't matter how you word the rule, if it's 'mortal wounds on 6's to hit' then every time you roll a 6 to hit you get 3 mortal wounds, no wound rolls or saves needed. You don't need janky 'attack sequence' rule wording.
Feel No Pain is the only 'save' you get, because that happens after you take the damage. This is where the 'attack sequence' part may actually help, if it lets Gorefather ignore feel no pain as well.
Edit: Sorry I misread Gorefather, I thought it was on the 'hit' part of the attack. So you do roll to wound, but you still skip the 'saves' part as per normal mortal wounds rules. Still don't need any 'attack sequence' rule wording.
So, the attack sequence is
Roll hit > roll wound > roll save > take damage.
If you deal 3 mortal wounds INSTEAD of damage, you change it to
Roll hit > roll wound > roll save > take mortal wounds.
Feel No Pain happens after the take damage step, where you roll for each point of damage dealt by either wounds or mortal wounds.
In addition, each attack follows the entire attack sequence, so if you roll a 6 on your first of 4 attacks, THAT SINGLE attack sequence ends and you deal 3 mortal wounds, and then you perform the attack sequence for the next 3.
What? No it isn't? (At least I don't think it is..)
If you roll a 6 to hit, then it's :
Roll hit > take mortal wounds.
You don't roll to wound, or for saves, for mortal wounds. At all. Ever. Doesn't matter how you word the rule, if it's 'mortal wounds on 6's to hit' then every time you roll a 6 to hit you get 3 mortal wounds, no wound rolls or saves needed. You don't need janky 'attack sequence' rule wording.
Feel No Pain is the only 'save' you get, because that happens after you take the damage. This is where the 'attack sequence' part may actually help, if it lets Gorefather ignore feel no pain as well.
Edit: Sorry I misread Gorefather, I thought it was on the 'hit' part of the attack. So you do roll to wound, but you still skip the 'saves' part as per normal mortal wounds rules. Still don't need any 'attack sequence' rule wording.
If you take mortal wounds "instead of damage", then you ONLY take mortal wounds when you would take damage, which ONLY happens after a save. So if you rolled a 6, and the rule was it takes 3 mortal wounds instead of normal damage, you would still need to get to the "take damage" step which is AFTER taking saves.
roll hits > roll wounds > roll saves > take damage (This is the only step that is changed when you take "mortal wounds instead of normal damage"
Probably a stupid question, but are Close Combat focussed Chosen of any value with the new Stratagems? I've been wanting to field some Chosen with power swords.
On the topic of stupid suggestions, how about EC Warp Talons accompanied by a smash lord with the Host Raptorial WT. Adding 2 to charge rolls, combined with Honour the Prince could make for a practically guaranteed charge off deep strike, which due to Warpflame strike denies overwatch. I'm sure there's plenty that can further augment the Warp Talons hitting power - until now the difficulty has been getting them there off of deep strike. Could this make them remotely viable?
Note I still accept that after that one charge they're dead - and so probably better off as Night Lords to deny fall back. Thoughts?
blood reaper wrote: Probably a stupid question, but are Close Combat focussed Chosen of any value with the new Stratagems? I've been wanting to field some Chosen with power swords.
Can work if you fight the right opponents and get them from point a to b.
I'm liking the WE stratagem Skulls for the Skull Throne. There's literally no down-side to using it; at worst it pays for itself, at best it nets you 2 CP.
I wish the Heldrake had more than just 1d6 Baleflamer hits. But it's good to know you can get a reroll via stratagem to save your command reroll with IW. They seem to have the most stratagems that affect more than just Infantry units.
Still trying to decide whether Purge, AL or IW is the better (heavy support/flyer) ally for my DG, Daemons, and Knights armies. I have lots of Oblits, Havocs, Predators and Heldrakes that need a Legion to join.
Nightlord1987 wrote: I wish the Heldrake had more than just 1d6 Baleflamer hits. But it's good to know you can get a reroll via stratagem to save your command reroll with IW. They seem to have the most stratagems that affect more than just Infantry units.
Still trying to decide whether Purge, AL or IW is the better (heavy support/flyer) ally for my DG, Daemons, and Knights armies. I have lots of Oblits, Havocs, Predators and Heldrakes that need a Legion to join.
Beyond shooting into melee, the purge trait is probably one of the worst ones for him?
Al could do some fancy movement shenanigans but considering how fast a helldrake allready is i doubt it to be really that big an issue.
IW with the new traits and stratagems might make the Helldrake quite a fancy* pick in a IW daemonengine list.
*of course it is still a helldrake, so rather overpriced anyways.
Automatically Appended Next Post: BTW, has anyone figured out a maximum meme AL list with movement traits and stratagems?
Warlord for relocation.
I am alpharius for the one time teleport trait?
Terminator lords, Jumppack lords etc.
A bunch of slaanesh marines maybee?
Havocs? (reaper havocs with deepstrike probably the most memeworthy .)
I'd say that make for a fluffy and especially highly movement based list.
Drakeslayer wrote: On the topic of stupid suggestions, how about EC Warp Talons accompanied by a smash lord with the Host Raptorial WT. Adding 2 to charge rolls, combined with Honour the Prince could make for a practically guaranteed charge off deep strike, which due to Warpflame strike denies overwatch. I'm sure there's plenty that can further augment the Warp Talons hitting power - until now the difficulty has been getting them there off of deep strike. Could this make them remotely viable?
Note I still accept that after that one charge they're dead - and so probably better off as Night Lords to deny fall back. Thoughts?
Nothing particularly stupid at all.
Salamanders have brought overwhelming overwatch to the metagame. Ultras, IH, and T’au gunners are likewise very dangerous to launch a frontal assault against. Being able to shut down a load of flamers (or cool-headed rifles) can gatekeep certain anti-melee lists, with a proper brawler unit that appreciates the assist (Sal Aggressors can easily kill like a Terminator squad or DP). Hateful Assault means they’ll even get a bit of actual stabbing done. Honour the Prince is a very nice insurance against bad rolls - at least one unit is guaranteed to successfully charge, and there’s nothing worse than a Smashlord rolling snake eyes.
Daemonkin Fiends & Epitomes make for a team-up that can cause the EC Legion Trait to actually be useful in this situation. Being tarpitted by a load of Lightning Claws and a Thunder Hammer that all Strike first is a rather dangerous place to be.
Isn't the Wordleaters CP gain broken? In that all CP gaining methods are limited to 1 CP per round and this costs 1 CP, except forthe specifically excluded methods named in the faq, which this is not.
Roknar wrote: Isn't the Wordleaters CP gain broken? In that all CP gaining methods are limited to 1 CP per round and this costs 1 CP, except forthe specifically excluded methods named in the faq, which this is not.
Roknar wrote: Isn't the Wordleaters CP gain broken? In that all CP gaining methods are limited to 1 CP per round and this costs 1 CP, except forthe specifically excluded methods named in the faq, which this is not.
I think the best home for Oblits now is AL, hands down, 100%, they will be in nearly every single AL list I write from now on. The ability to give them character protection is off the chain.
grouchoben wrote: I think the best home for Oblits now is AL, hands down, 100%, they will be in nearly every single AL list I write from now on. The ability to give them character protection is off the chain.
I think IW is an honorable mention also. You can use cultists and the same way to give character protection. And the rampant techno virus and tank hunter startergems are amazing. Also they can ignore 1 point of AP.
Only problem is that they will eat CP for breakfast.
mrtomski wrote: Hey guys I may have missed it but do traits only apply to infintry etc still?
Did they change any legion traits?
Nope, legion traits are still the same.
Thanks, alpha legion seeming pretty damn good now then.
Let us pray to the dark gods for some point drops.
Why? I'd rather have 2w infantry cheaper for worse equipment then even cheaper 1 W marine models which will never work in this massed fire edition.
Agreed. Csm shouldn't be cheap chafe units. We need better stats.
Glad to see people are starting to agree with me that Chaos Marines are poorly handled.
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grouchoben wrote: I think the best home for Oblits now is AL, hands down, 100%, they will be in nearly every single AL list I write from now on. The ability to give them character protection is off the chain.
Indeed. Put anything in front of them that's fast like Raptors and they're good to go.
I don't think they should put csm on par with primaris, but they definitely should boost their offensive output. Maybe give them all assault 3 bolters and an extra attack.
Or give them all ap -1 and ap -4 on wound rolls of 6+ like slanesh claws.
Has anyone done any calculations on the power of excruciating frequencies Noise Marine squads? Thinking of a squad jumping out of a Termite (or a rhino, I guess), maybe with a lord or champion to give them some melee bite.
10 Noise Marines, 3 shots each (blastmaster for one of them), S5, D2. VOTLW? Prescience? Then endless cacophony.
You could (though...not sure you'd want to) even then follow up with Honouring the Prince for a near-guaranteed charge. Probably better to save that for something else though.
Niiru wrote: Has anyone done any calculations on the power of excruciating frequencies Noise Marine squads? Thinking of a squad jumping out of a Termite (or a rhino, I guess), maybe with a lord or champion to give them some melee bite.
10 Noise Marines, 3 shots each (blastmaster for one of them), S5, D2. VOTLW? Prescience? Then endless cacophony.
You could (though...not sure you'd want to) even then follow up with Honouring the Prince for a near-guaranteed charge. Probably better to save that for something else though.
You'd kill 18.6 primaris with a lord, VotLW, EC, excruciating frequencies and prescience. Or do 28 wounds to a knight.
Not a bad little bomb for 350 points (terrax and noise marines) and 4cp.
Niiru wrote: Has anyone done any calculations on the power of excruciating frequencies Noise Marine squads? Thinking of a squad jumping out of a Termite (or a rhino, I guess), maybe with a lord or champion to give them some melee bite.
10 Noise Marines, 3 shots each (blastmaster for one of them), S5, D2. VOTLW? Prescience? Then endless cacophony.
You could (though...not sure you'd want to) even then follow up with Honouring the Prince for a near-guaranteed charge. Probably better to save that for something else though.
You'd kill 18.6 primaris with a lord, VotLW, EC, excruciating frequencies and prescience. Or do 28 wounds to a knight.
Not a bad little bomb for 350 points (terrax and noise marines) and 4cp.
Is the EC in this the exalted champion? (Dakka abbreviations are kinda annoying, as the site only lists a fraction of the possible abbreviation answers, and hardly ever lists the ones that actually matter lol) Does that mean those 28 wounds are including a fight phase? Cos the champion does nothing to help shooting.
If that's 28 wounds in just the shooting phase, that seems pretty good. If its shooting and fight, then it's still ok I guess but relies on making the charge (which uses more CP)
Edit:
Also, would you go with a Rhino or a Terrax?
Niiru wrote: Has anyone done any calculations on the power of excruciating frequencies Noise Marine squads? Thinking of a squad jumping out of a Termite (or a rhino, I guess), maybe with a lord or champion to give them some melee bite.
10 Noise Marines, 3 shots each (blastmaster for one of them), S5, D2. VOTLW? Prescience? Then endless cacophony.
You could (though...not sure you'd want to) even then follow up with Honouring the Prince for a near-guaranteed charge. Probably better to save that for something else though.
You'd kill 18.6 primaris with a lord, VotLW, EC, excruciating frequencies and prescience. Or do 28 wounds to a knight.
Not a bad little bomb for 350 points (terrax and noise marines) and 4cp.
Is the EC in this the exalted champion? (Dakka abbreviations are kinda annoying, as the site only lists a fraction of the possible abbreviation answers, and hardly ever lists the ones that actually matter lol) Does that mean those 28 wounds are including a fight phase? Cos the champion does nothing to help shooting.
If that's 28 wounds in just the shooting phase, that seems pretty good. If its shooting and fight, then it's still ok I guess but relies on making the charge (which uses more CP)
Edit:
Also, would you go with a Rhino or a Terrax?
Niiru wrote: Has anyone done any calculations on the power of excruciating frequencies Noise Marine squads? Thinking of a squad jumping out of a Termite (or a rhino, I guess), maybe with a lord or champion to give them some melee bite.
10 Noise Marines, 3 shots each (blastmaster for one of them), S5, D2. VOTLW? Prescience? Then endless cacophony.
You could (though...not sure you'd want to) even then follow up with Honouring the Prince for a near-guaranteed charge. Probably better to save that for something else though.
You'd kill 18.6 primaris with a lord, VotLW, EC, excruciating frequencies and prescience. Or do 28 wounds to a knight.
Not a bad little bomb for 350 points (terrax and noise marines) and 4cp.
Is the EC in this the exalted champion? (Dakka abbreviations are kinda annoying, as the site only lists a fraction of the possible abbreviation answers, and hardly ever lists the ones that actually matter lol) Does that mean those 28 wounds are including a fight phase? Cos the champion does nothing to help shooting.
If that's 28 wounds in just the shooting phase, that seems pretty good. If its shooting and fight, then it's still ok I guess but relies on making the charge (which uses more CP)
Edit:
Also, would you go with a Rhino or a Terrax?
Pretty sure EC = Endless Cacophony here.
AHH of course, sorry I thought he had already mentioned cacophony separately, I think my brain just assumed. Makes total sense now
Not sure if this result makes them decent or not haha
Yeah EC= Endless Cacophony. That's just shooting, obviously you need a lord and sorcerer or a daemon prince.
Since they're troops for emporers children I'd just stuff 2 or 3 rhinos with them. It's only 296 points and they're useful without all the strats and if you go first, and have 2 rhinos full, you should have at least two lots of buffed up shooting out of them.
small_gods wrote: Yeah EC= Endless Cacophony. That's just shooting, obviously you need a lord and sorcerer or a daemon prince.
Since they're troops for emporers children I'd just stuff 2 or 3 rhinos with them. It's only 296 points and they're useful without all the strats and if you go first, and have 2 rhinos full, you should have at least two lots of buffed up shooting out of them.
You'd only be able to buff one of the units per turn, but it does mean you're more likely to have a buffed unit where you need one
I’d rather put them in a dreadclaw, you can have a priest with them with the reroll wounds relic and combined with a lord dropping nearby you’re really cooking.
52 str 5 D2 ignore cover shots rerolling wounds and with a lord rerolling 1s to hit or if you can hit them with prescience as well make them rerolling everything. You can murder anything.
demontalons wrote: I’d rather put them in a dreadclaw, you can have a priest with them with the reroll wounds relic and combined with a lord dropping nearby you’re really cooking.
52 str 5 D2 ignore cover shots rerolling wounds and with a lord rerolling 1s to hit or if you can hit them with prescience as well make them rerolling everything. You can murder anything.
I'd probably drop the priest simply because of not getting to use the prayers while you're not on the table, and put in a Champion instead. Fluffier, and it means you can throw the squad into combat and get rerolls of hits and wounds. But a Lord+Sorcerer is probably going to be the better combo.
Anyone considered using the EC combat elixirs? If it was only 1CP I'd say they were a great upgrade choice, but for 2CP it seems expensive. Getting T5 terminators, or S5 noise marines, might be worthwhile if planned around..
Maybe add +2" of movement to a huge pack of Raptors? You can move 28" across the board with Warptime, wrap yourself up in a nasty gunline to disrupt it, and follow up on T2 with your slower assault units.
mrtomski wrote: Hey guys I may have missed it but do traits only apply to infintry etc still?
Did they change any legion traits?
Nope, legion traits are still the same.
Thanks, alpha legion seeming pretty damn good now then.
Let us pray to the dark gods for some point drops.
Why? I'd rather have 2w infantry cheaper for worse equipment then even cheaper 1 W marine models which will never work in this massed fire edition.
Agreed. Csm shouldn't be cheap chafe units. We need better stats.
Glad to see people are starting to agree with me that Chaos Marines are poorly handled.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
grouchoben wrote: I think the best home for Oblits now is AL, hands down, 100%, they will be in nearly every single AL list I write from now on. The ability to give them character protection is off the chain.
Indeed. Put anything in front of them that's fast like Raptors and they're good to go.
Not that Raptors are exactly good but it's a use.
Raptors are one of the csm units that need improved stats the most. They should at least be as good as vanguard veterans. I'd still prefer they get the onslaught rule from hh even if it came with a points increase.
Although night lords did get it as a warlord trait in faith and fury. They also got a warlord trait equivalent to a talent for murder.
Just wish gw could have gone that extra step and made it our trait.
Here's another thought - Renascent infiltration and plasma chosen. Basically gives a big unit of chosen deepstrike for 1CP. Basically a much cheaper (but also squishier) plasma-terminator suicide squad.
You could also do it with Havocs, reaper chaincannons would love being plopped down within 24" behind a nice target. But you can only ever target 5 havocs, not sure if 10 chosen can end up being a better option.
Niiru wrote: Here's another thought - Renascent infiltration and plasma chosen. Basically gives a big unit of chosen deepstrike for 1CP. Basically a much cheaper (but also squishier) plasma-terminator suicide squad.
You could also do it with Havocs, reaper chaincannons would love being plopped down within 24" behind a nice target. But you can only ever target 5 havocs, not sure if 10 chosen can end up being a better option.
Renascent Infiltration seems like a really amazing strat if you can leverage it correctly. Ideally you'd have several units that can hit hard in short range, so say 2 squads of reaper chaincannons havoc's, some termis, and maybe a chosen plasma drop squad. You can use the huge variety of movement shenanigans AL has to concentrate an attack, split your forces, redeploy, or even launch a feint. Heck you can even just be lazy and pick up a small squad to do something like secure linebreaker. Until they tell us what turn it stops working, that strat is gonna have some amazing abilities. The ability to just drop in, nuke something, and then set up to do it again is just great, especially for slow units like termis. Main trick is using it in conjunction with other movement abilities.
I know you can't really math a lot of what these abilities bring to the table, but I really feel AL is going to be a very high skillcap army. You can vary what your army does so incredibly much just by the pregame WLT, relics, and pysker powers, as well as how you leverage your strats
Take the termi lord with a combo Bolter and power sword. A very simple model. So to start, there's the easy choice of sniper lord. You can make a judgement call on which Bolter relic is more useful for your prey. But let's say youre against a knight list. Well you can take his WLT as the redeployment option to throw off the knights deployment and give him the hyrda's wail to screw up their CP reliance. And it's not a big deal that he can't deepstrike, because you just use renescant infiltration to redeploy him after he's done his hydras wail, because you trigger the hydras wail start of round and the RI strat is end of movement phase, either for objectives or to finish a target. Or alternatively, you could give him the WLT/relic combo to make him -3 to hit at range and use him as a way to protect a unit like obliterators or havoc's dropping in with conceal. Drop him and his pals on the second floor of a building and they're probably safe from melee too. You could even do something really goofy like the redeploy to a friendly squad WLT and Mindveil for a super slippery termi Lord that just zips around the board. It's a shame he can't take a thunder hammer of you could even make him a poor man's smash Lord with that combo. All perfectly reasonable uses for him. I'm sure some are more useful than others, but that just shows the flexibility even a single character could have, and that's before interactions with other units like a sorceror. Remember, you could make these choices game by game at a tournament by letting him be the secondary warlord and relic, that single model could do radically different jobs each game. He's essentially a Swiss army knife.
I have a feeling there are a ton of combos and tricks just waiting to be figured out with AL. It may not be the most popular net list, but I can see it throwing people seriously on tilt at a local tournament level. It really has just about every tool you need to screw an opponents plans up, IF you can keep it fed with CP.
Do we know if an AL Character can use the Demon Shell Strat with Vipers Wail? Could be usefull to popp some MW on a enemy character with the sniper Trait
Waaaghbert wrote: Do we know if an AL Character can use the Demon Shell Strat with Vipers Wail? Could be usefull to popp some MW on a enemy character with the sniper Trait
There is no such thing as a vipers wail. If you mean vipers bite the answer is no. Daemon shells refers to bolt weapons. Vipers bite is vipers bite, its not a bolt weapon, as needed for the daemon shells stratagem.
Waaaghbert wrote: Do we know if an AL Character can use the Demon Shell Strat with Vipers Wail? Could be usefull to popp some MW on a enemy character with the sniper Trait
There is no such thing as a vipers wail. If you mean vipers bite the answer is no. Daemon shells refers to bolt weapons. Vipers bite is vipers bite, its not a bolt weapon, as needed for the daemon shells stratagem.
Oh, I was looking at the rumour round-up posted a few pages back, didnt know it was called "Vipers Bite".
Waaaghbert wrote: Do we know if an AL Character can use the Demon Shell Strat with Vipers Wail? Could be usefull to popp some MW on a enemy character with the sniper Trait
There is no such thing as a vipers wail. If you mean vipers bite the answer is no. Daemon shells refers to bolt weapons. Vipers bite is vipers bite, its not a bolt weapon, as needed for the daemon shells stratagem.
Oh, I was looking at the rumour round-up posted a few pages back, didnt know it was called "Vipers Bite".
Meh, sad, but expected
Wait a sec, that means it doesn't trigger Bolter Disciplin as well, does it?
Waaaghbert wrote: Do we know if an AL Character can use the Demon Shell Strat with Vipers Wail? Could be usefull to popp some MW on a enemy character with the sniper Trait
There is no such thing as a vipers wail. If you mean vipers bite the answer is no. Daemon shells refers to bolt weapons. Vipers bite is vipers bite, its not a bolt weapon, as needed for the daemon shells stratagem.
Oh, I was looking at the rumour round-up posted a few pages back, didnt know it was called "Vipers Bite".
Meh, sad, but expected
Wait a sec, that means it doesn't trigger Bolter Disciplin as well, does it?
It does trigger bolter discipline thankfully. It says 'including bolt weapon profile of relics such as blood song and lions wrath'. So we should be pretty safe.
Also with the lord on bike (until he gets mothballed) you could shoot with relic and use daemon shells on the bike's combi bolter. Very handy for finishing off a character a turn.
It does trigher bolter discipline thankfully. It says 'including bolt weapon profile of relics such as blood song and lions wrath'. So we should be pretty safe.
Also with the lord on bike (until he gets mothballed) you could shoot with relic and use daemon shells on the bike's combi bolter. Very habdy for finishing off a character a turn.
Unfortunately vipers bite doesnt have any bolt weapon profile, so no bolter discipline.
However, an AL headhunter lord on bike with vipers bite can snipe characters with the vipers bite and use daemon shells with the bikes twin boltguns.
It does trigher bolter discipline thankfully. It says 'including bolt weapon profile of relics such as blood song and lions wrath'. So we should be pretty safe.
Also with the lord on bike (until he gets mothballed) you could shoot with relic and use daemon shells on the bike's combi bolter. Very habdy for finishing off a character a turn.
Unfortunately vipers bite doesnt have any bolt weapon profile, so no bolter discipline.
However, an AL headhunter lord on bike with vipers bite can snipe characters with the vipers bite and use daemon shells with the bikes twin boltguns.
Why would it not have Bolter discipline, it's a combi Bolter with a relic statline. This is like arguing the Hammer of Sunderance didn't interact with Grinding Advance because it "wasn't a battlecannon". Which people tried to do, and were proven wrong. Just because it was no longer verbatim called a "battlecannon" in that instance didn't mean it lost the interaction with grinding advance. Yes I'm sure in some legalese mindset it doesn't work but intent in the past shows it should be fine. At worst, it'll get FAQ'D to clarify that yes, its still a bolt weapon, but I can't see the average person arguing against it.
Its a bolt weapon, it just gets a fancier profile. It still starts its life as a combi bolter. I can't think of a relic that makes it stop counting as its original weapon type, if there is its news to me. It should work with Bolter discipline just fine.
It does trigher bolter discipline thankfully. It says 'including bolt weapon profile of relics such as blood song and lions wrath'. So we should be pretty safe.
Also with the lord on bike (until he gets mothballed) you could shoot with relic and use daemon shells on the bike's combi bolter. Very habdy for finishing off a character a turn.
Unfortunately vipers bite doesnt have any bolt weapon profile, so no bolter discipline.
However, an AL headhunter lord on bike with vipers bite can snipe characters with the vipers bite and use daemon shells with the bikes twin boltguns.
It says in the bolter discipline rules that relic weapons that replace bolt profile weapons also count for purposes of bolter discipline.
It does trigher bolter discipline thankfully. It says 'including bolt weapon profile of relics such as blood song and lions wrath'. So we should be pretty safe.
Also with the lord on bike (until he gets mothballed) you could shoot with relic and use daemon shells on the bike's combi bolter. Very habdy for finishing off a character a turn.
Unfortunately vipers bite doesnt have any bolt weapon profile, so no bolter discipline.
However, an AL headhunter lord on bike with vipers bite can snipe characters with the vipers bite and use daemon shells with the bikes twin boltguns.
Why would it not have Bolter discipline, it's a combi Bolter with a relic statline. This is like arguing the Hammer of Sunderance didn't interact with Grinding Advance because it "wasn't a battlecannon". Which people tried to do, and were proven wrong. Just because it was no longer verbatim called a "battlecannon" in that instance didn't mean it lost the interaction with grinding advance. Yes I'm sure in some legalese mindset it doesn't work but intent in the past shows it should be fine. At worst, it'll get FAQ'D to clarify that yes, its still a bolt weapon, but I can't see the average person arguing against it.
Its a bolt weapon, it just gets a fancier profile. It still starts its life as a combi bolter. I can't think of a relic that makes it stop counting as its original weapon type, if there is its news to me. It should work with Bolter discipline just fine.
Well to be fair, the argument made sense, as far as I recall.
It replaces a weapon and has the following profile. One good example is thinking of the Mindforged Stave for Iron Hands. It can replace any Force Weapon, so what would happen if we had a rule to interact with a particular Force Weapon type, like an Axe? It says Stave in its name but it might replace the Axe or the Staff or the Sword.
We can probably say it should benefit, like Hammer would. HOWEVER it is up to GW to make sure it's worded as such.
It does trigher bolter discipline thankfully. It says 'including bolt weapon profile of relics such as blood song and lions wrath'. So we should be pretty safe.
Also with the lord on bike (until he gets mothballed) you could shoot with relic and use daemon shells on the bike's combi bolter. Very habdy for finishing off a character a turn.
Unfortunately vipers bite doesnt have any bolt weapon profile, so no bolter discipline.
However, an AL headhunter lord on bike with vipers bite can snipe characters with the vipers bite and use daemon shells with the bikes twin boltguns.
Why would it not have Bolter discipline, it's a combi Bolter with a relic statline. This is like arguing the Hammer of Sunderance didn't interact with Grinding Advance because it "wasn't a battlecannon". Which people tried to do, and were proven wrong. Just because it was no longer verbatim called a "battlecannon" in that instance didn't mean it lost the interaction with grinding advance. Yes I'm sure in some legalese mindset it doesn't work but intent in the past shows it should be fine. At worst, it'll get FAQ'D to clarify that yes, its still a bolt weapon, but I can't see the average person arguing against it.
Its a bolt weapon, it just gets a fancier profile. It still starts its life as a combi bolter. I can't think of a relic that makes it stop counting as its original weapon type, if there is its news to me. It should work with Bolter discipline just fine.
Well to be fair, the argument made sense, as far as I recall.
It replaces a weapon and has the following profile. One good example is thinking of the Mindforged Stave for Iron Hands. It can replace any Force Weapon, so what would happen if we had a rule to interact with a particular Force Weapon type, like an Axe? It says Stave in its name but it might replace the Axe or the Staff or the Sword.
We can probably say it should benefit, like Hammer would. HOWEVER it is up to GW to make sure it's worded as such.
It says exactly that in the big Faq 2019. If the weapon replaces a rapid fire bolt weapon then it benifits from bolter discipline.
It doesn't matter that it's not named, it gives examples but also has a general rule for relics.
Arkos +1 CP to make Warlord + trait that makes him -1 to be hit + boon of the gods for nurgle mark + miasma of pestilance = Arkos being -4 to be shot and -3 to be hit in CC?
The4thEnemy wrote: Arkos +1 CP to make Warlord + trait that makes him -1 to be hit + boon of the gods for nurgle mark + miasma of pestilance = Arkos being -4 to be shot and -3 to be hit in CC?
Does he do anything for an army besides infiltrate and be hard to hit? Like his +1 advance/charge aura, says that it works with some specific faction called the faithless. Can I make my army "Alpha Legion, the Faithless" or something like that? It seems like to make your units benefit from his aura you'd no longer be RAW Alpha Legion, you'd be "alpha legion and friends". So at best he's just an infiltrating character on foot thats stupidly hard to hit, right?
It does trigher bolter discipline thankfully. It says 'including bolt weapon profile of relics such as blood song and lions wrath'. So we should be pretty safe.
Also with the lord on bike (until he gets mothballed) you could shoot with relic and use daemon shells on the bike's combi bolter. Very habdy for finishing off a character a turn.
Unfortunately vipers bite doesnt have any bolt weapon profile, so no bolter discipline.
However, an AL headhunter lord on bike with vipers bite can snipe characters with the vipers bite and use daemon shells with the bikes twin boltguns.
Why would it not have Bolter discipline, it's a combi Bolter with a relic statline. This is like arguing the Hammer of Sunderance didn't interact with Grinding Advance because it "wasn't a battlecannon". Which people tried to do, and were proven wrong. Just because it was no longer verbatim called a "battlecannon" in that instance didn't mean it lost the interaction with grinding advance. Yes I'm sure in some legalese mindset it doesn't work but intent in the past shows it should be fine. At worst, it'll get FAQ'D to clarify that yes, its still a bolt weapon, but I can't see the average person arguing against it.
Its a bolt weapon, it just gets a fancier profile. It still starts its life as a combi bolter. I can't think of a relic that makes it stop counting as its original weapon type, if there is its news to me. It should work with Bolter discipline just fine.
Well to be fair, the argument made sense, as far as I recall.
It replaces a weapon and has the following profile. One good example is thinking of the Mindforged Stave for Iron Hands. It can replace any Force Weapon, so what would happen if we had a rule to interact with a particular Force Weapon type, like an Axe? It says Stave in its name but it might replace the Axe or the Staff or the Sword.
We can probably say it should benefit, like Hammer would. HOWEVER it is up to GW to make sure it's worded as such.
It says exactly that in the big Faq 2019. If the weapon replaces a rapid fire bolt weapon then it benifits from bolter discipline.
It doesn't matter that it's not named, it gives examples but also has a general rule for relics.
That's a separate rule though. We are talking about Grinding Advance, which never had an issue to need that pretext.
The4thEnemy wrote: Arkos +1 CP to make Warlord + trait that makes him -1 to be hit + boon of the gods for nurgle mark + miasma of pestilance = Arkos being -4 to be shot and -3 to be hit in CC?
Does he do anything for an army besides infiltrate and be hard to hit? Like his +1 advance/charge aura, says that it works with some specific faction called the faithless. Can I make my army "Alpha Legion, the Faithless" or something like that? It seems like to make your units benefit from his aura you'd no longer be RAW Alpha Legion, you'd be "alpha legion and friends". So at best he's just an infiltrating character on foot thats stupidly hard to hit, right?
Faithless are a successor legion, so you don't have any problem using his (somewhat limited for the cost) aura on your army: run them as Faithless, there's no difference at all, as there are zero unique characters for AL, which is the only thing you'd lose access to by doing so.
Automatically Appended Next Post: And also, that sounds cute but the -1 to hit trait is gonna go on a Discolord 9 times out of 10, who loves loves loves that stack
As far as I'm aware, I don't think it's RAW possible to 'run them as Faithless', as there are no rules for 'successor legions' - you have to pick an existiing Legion or Renegade Chapter. Frustrating, but there it is.
Drakeslayer wrote: As far as I'm aware, I don't think it's RAW possible to 'run them as Faithless', as there are no rules for 'successor legions' - you have to pick an existiing Legion or Renegade Chapter. Frustrating, but there it is.
He can insofar as he benefits Alpha Legion, but otherwise no - like most FW chaos characters you'd have to houserule it. He was given the Alpha Legion keyword in an FAQ I think, so you can use him in an AL detachment, but you can't make CSM FAITHLESS.
Drakeslayer wrote: He can insofar as he benefits Alpha Legion, but otherwise no - like most FW chaos characters you'd have to houserule it. He was given the Alpha Legion keyword in an FAQ I think, so you can use him in an AL detachment, but you can't make CSM FAITHLESS.
Feths sake, so discouraging for things to come for FW40k non dreads...
It does trigher bolter discipline thankfully. It says 'including bolt weapon profile of relics such as blood song and lions wrath'. So we should be pretty safe.
Also with the lord on bike (until he gets mothballed) you could shoot with relic and use daemon shells on the bike's combi bolter. Very habdy for finishing off a character a turn.
Unfortunately vipers bite doesnt have any bolt weapon profile, so no bolter discipline.
However, an AL headhunter lord on bike with vipers bite can snipe characters with the vipers bite and use daemon shells with the bikes twin boltguns.
Why would it not have Bolter discipline, it's a combi Bolter with a relic statline. This is like arguing the Hammer of Sunderance didn't interact with Grinding Advance because it "wasn't a battlecannon". Which people tried to do, and were proven wrong. Just because it was no longer verbatim called a "battlecannon" in that instance didn't mean it lost the interaction with grinding advance. Yes I'm sure in some legalese mindset it doesn't work but intent in the past shows it should be fine. At worst, it'll get FAQ'D to clarify that yes, its still a bolt weapon, but I can't see the average person arguing against it.
Its a bolt weapon, it just gets a fancier profile. It still starts its life as a combi bolter. I can't think of a relic that makes it stop counting as its original weapon type, if there is its news to me. It should work with Bolter discipline just fine.
Well to be fair, the argument made sense, as far as I recall.
It replaces a weapon and has the following profile. One good example is thinking of the Mindforged Stave for Iron Hands. It can replace any Force Weapon, so what would happen if we had a rule to interact with a particular Force Weapon type, like an Axe? It says Stave in its name but it might replace the Axe or the Staff or the Sword.
We can probably say it should benefit, like Hammer would. HOWEVER it is up to GW to make sure it's worded as such.
It says exactly that in the big Faq 2019. If the weapon replaces a rapid fire bolt weapon then it benifits from bolter discipline.
It doesn't matter that it's not named, it gives examples but also has a general rule for relics.
That's a separate rule though. We are talking about Grinding Advance, which never had an issue to need that pretext.
But it, airquotes heavily implied here, technically did. Grinding advance specifically pointed out what weapons it worked with, like the battlecannon. It listed each one. People were arguing you couldn't grinding advance with the Hammer of Sunderance relic because it "replaced" the battlecannon, and grinding advance did not specify that it worked with the Hammer of Sunderance. It was the epitome of splitting hairs. Intent was there, but Rules Lawyers were trying to legalese it. Essentially the same thing we're seeing here with this alpha legion relic, if GW hadn't specified with the Bolter discipline rule that it was ok, probably because of the Hammer of Sunderance example.
As for the Arkos thing @Drakeslayer, that's what I thought. You could make your army <the faithless> but the faithless don't technically have a legion trait so they wouldn't get the -1 to hit and Alpha Legion Abilities. But you can take him as Alpha Legion and use him for everything but the +1" advance/charge ability, which specifies <the faithless>. Which is a shame because that's a really handy ability for Alpha Legion, and with all the new deployment options, would actually be quite handy.
Waaaghbert wrote: Do we know if an AL Character can use the Demon Shell Strat with Vipers Wail? Could be usefull to popp some MW on a enemy character with the sniper Trait
There is no such thing as a vipers wail. If you mean vipers bite the answer is no. Daemon shells refers to bolt weapons. Vipers bite is vipers bite, its not a bolt weapon, as needed for the daemon shells stratagem.
Um... except that Bolter Discipline still applies to Vipers Bite, because it still counts as a bolt weapon. So daemon shells should (might?) still work as well.
Probably needs an FAQ.
Edit: I wrote this without realising there had already been a discussion on this. Vipers definitely gets Bolter Discipline, and I still think daemon shells needs an faq cos personally I would rule that the Viper is still a bolter, it's just a named bolter.
Well, I’ve packed a WB Slaaneshi Daemonkin list built for T1 Possessed tarpit, and en route to Warhammer World…
…to fight World Eaters
Not sure what can be gleaned from a civil war, but I guess we’ll see how Gal Vorbak do against Red Butchers
Automatically Appended Next Post: Okay, but seriously - my list’s plan is to advance and try to charge with like everything on turn one. Instead, I’m going to use my mobility to try to pick my fights and play the mission (probably Maelstrom), and use my Venomcrawler to soften her up (when two melee lists meet, I stop and take stock as to who’s technically got the shootier one)
My oblit’s gonna teleport in, try to bag a rooftop vantage point, and my disco lord’s not going to try to get too clever with his Baleflamer. Getting within 16” of a party van or bloodthirster to henpeck it is a mug’s game.
I’ll probably try use my Fiends of Slaanesh to burn off her CP. If they can get the charge in, she’ll want to pop CA rather than get her RBs ate. If her BT can’t CA, three DE’s should be able to duff it.
My favorite legion for a while now has been Iron Warriors. I think the new stuff is... decent. Not fixing the core issues of the army, of course, but pretty good. For example, a Discolord with the WLT that lets you ignore penalties for moving and shooting heavy weapons with a pack of Forgefiend/Venomcrawler/Defiler would fix daemon engines as you now hit on 3s and don't have the penalty for moving (which they should ignore by default if you ask me...). It's just on a Discolord who isn't that hard to kill and would be a LOT of points in that package.
Or a lord with the re-roll 1s to wound sitting back with a bunch of Havocs, maybe with the Stargate thing to give them a 5++.
Or a lord with the ignore penalties for moving with heavy weapons with a few heavy weapon CSM squads around him as a moving ball of death. I'm a big fan of Chaincannons on CSM squads because the high ROF offets the penalty. Remove the penalty and it gets better. Maybe some heavy bolters too for fire support since they have lower ROF but longer range so they can support the chaincannon squads.
Nothing that's going to light up GTs, but enough that it could be fun.
I think the biggest problem is no real way to get multiple WLTs out when a lot is super good. I would have liked to have seen something like council of traitors as a generic CSM thing, because their champions/lords are often minor warlords in their own right with their own groups, rather than just line officers.
The biggest issue for me is that you're still encouraged to mix legions/renegaes and cult troops, irrespective of whether your chosen legion would have them or not.
Wayniac wrote: My favorite legion for a while now has been Iron Warriors. I think the new stuff is... decent. Not fixing the core issues of the army, of course, but pretty good. For example, a Discolord with the WLT that lets you ignore penalties for moving and shooting heavy weapons with a pack of Forgefiend/Venomcrawler/Defiler would fix daemon engines as you now hit on 3s and don't have the penalty for moving (which they should ignore by default if you ask me...). It's just on a Discolord who isn't that hard to kill and would be a LOT of points in that package.
Or a lord with the re-roll 1s to wound sitting back with a bunch of Havocs, maybe with the Stargate thing to give them a 5++.
Or a lord with the ignore penalties for moving with heavy weapons with a few heavy weapon CSM squads around him as a moving ball of death. I'm a big fan of Chaincannons on CSM squads because the high ROF offets the penalty. Remove the penalty and it gets better. Maybe some heavy bolters too for fire support since they have lower ROF but longer range so they can support the chaincannon squads.
Nothing that's going to light up GTs, but enough that it could be fun.
I think the biggest problem is no real way to get multiple WLTs out when a lot is super good. I would have liked to have seen something like council of traitors as a generic CSM thing, because their champions/lords are often minor warlords in their own right with their own groups, rather than just line officers.
I think if you're running IW you should really consider Oblits. They have so many buffs from IW and if you have a few cultists you can make them untargetable.
They can add an extra 50% damage output over the rest of csm oblits and they can reduce AP by one so with a unit dropped in cover they have a +3 save vs lascannons!
Have warp talons become usable, now that they have near-guaranteed charges? Or are you still better off using something else?
I know berserkers in rhino's are still better, but they're also more expensive because of the rhino. Terminators are also more expensive.
Edit:
Second question -
I'm considering either of the following:
Alpha Legion - Renascent Infiltration - What unit would be good for this? AL has no charge improvements, so it seems best used on something with short-range but powerful shooting, that would normally require expensive transportation to get to where it should be. Chaincannon havocs might work, but you'd only be able to do it with a single unit of 5. A big 10-man squad of Plasma-Chosen might be a nasty surprise, basically the same as the plasma-terminator suicide drop, but cheaper. Berserkers might work with a banner, but it would be a risk as they can fail the charge.
Emperors Children Termite - Fill a termite with a squad of something. Still a turn 2 attack (same as above), but now for 1CP you can nearly guarantee a charge from whatever you put in there. Possessed might work. Chosen with combi-bolters (or plasma I guess, but expensive) and chainswords (or Hammers, but again expensive) could in theory drop in, shoot at one unit and then charge another. Would be expensive though, but the nearly guaranteed charge is a potentially powerful feature.
Emperors Children or Night Lords - Warp Talons (or raptors?). Drop in, nearly guaranteed charge. EmpChildren might be stronger than Night Lords for this, if only because of the stratagems that gives bonus attacks. Night Lords can mess with auras and stuff though, which might work out better.
So basically the question becomes, do the new stratagems and abilities give us any new unit choices/builds? Saving points by not buying rhinos is a nice buff by itself. I'd love to make Talons a nasty kill-ball too. Or raptors, but I don't think raptors will ever be good enough, unless GW fix the leadership bomb problem.
Just considering the best fit for my fellblade with the new rules. Iron warriors seems a bit nuts (lets hope CA gets a pts drop)
1cp re-roll the damage + number of shots
1cp re-roll to wound vs vehicles
1cp gain 3 wounds back
so you have 8 lascannon shots re-rolling to wound and the damage vs vehicles
a now d6 demolisher cannon, re-rolling number of shots, wounds and damage vs vehicles
then the heavy cannon is 2d6 (always re-rolling with the strat) s8 -3 2dmg shots re-rolling to wound vs vehicles
or the 2 s14 -4 6dmg shots re-rolling to wound vs vehicles
for buffs:
you have a slannesh sorcerer nearby to give him a 5+fnp + prescience with the move and fire WL trait heavy weps
you have a smith nearby to pop him up d3, so potential 6 wound heal
or a priest to either make it -1 to get shot at or +1 to wound
quick maths should average one shot a knight a turn with the las and main gun alone and getting hit back its 4's to hit ye at t9 with a 2+ save a 5+ fnp and 26 wounds which you heal 4-6 a turn
Niiru wrote: Night Lords can mess with auras and stuff though, which might work out better.
This is as good or better as a defensive buff in a lot of cases. So it's going to go really well with all the other defensive buffs that were listed in the last post.
Latro_ wrote: Just considering the best fit for my fellblade with the new rules. Iron warriors seems a bit nuts (lets hope CA gets a pts drop)
1cp re-roll the damage + number of shots
1cp re-roll to wound vs vehicles
1cp gain 3 wounds back
so you have 8 lascannon shots re-rolling to wound and the damage vs vehicles
a now d6 demolisher cannon, re-rolling number of shots, wounds and damage vs vehicles
then the heavy cannon is 2d6 (always re-rolling with the strat) s8 -3 2dmg shots re-rolling to wound vs vehicles
or the 2 s14 -4 6dmg shots re-rolling to wound vs vehicles
for buffs:
you have a slannesh sorcerer nearby to give him a 5+fnp with the move and fire WL trait heavy weps
you have a smith nearby to pop him up d3, so potential 6 wound heal
or a priest to either make it -1 to get shot at or +1 to wound
I think IW definately has the tastiest strats for a fellblade. I'd take a sorcerer, lord and priest. Give it mark of nurgle and play the 6+ fnp and lower ap strats. -2 to hit, 6+ fnp and lower ap by one makes a really tough tank.
did get it a bit wrong you have to pick dmg re-roll or re-roll shots
considering re-rolling 2d6 on average gets you an 8 not a 7 i think the dmg is the way to go
Latro_ wrote: Just considering the best fit for my fellblade with the new rules. Iron warriors seems a bit nuts (lets hope CA gets a pts drop)
1cp re-roll the damage + number of shots
1cp re-roll to wound vs vehicles
1cp gain 3 wounds back
so you have 8 lascannon shots re-rolling to wound and the damage vs vehicles
a now d6 demolisher cannon, re-rolling number of shots, wounds and damage vs vehicles
then the heavy cannon is 2d6 (always re-rolling with the strat) s8 -3 2dmg shots re-rolling to wound vs vehicles
or the 2 s14 -4 6dmg shots re-rolling to wound vs vehicles
for buffs:
you have a slannesh sorcerer nearby to give him a 5+fnp + prescience with the move and fire WL trait heavy weps
you have a smith nearby to pop him up d3, so potential 6 wound heal
or a priest to either make it -1 to get shot at or +1 to wound
quick maths should average one shot a knight a turn with the las and main gun alone and getting hit back its 4's to hit ye at t9 with a 2+ save a 5+ fnp and 26 wounds which you heal 4-6 a turn
Glad to see I'm not the only one who runs one of these beasts.
Sorry to tell you though, the wording on machine malifica says you can only regain wounds using that ability. So no 3 to 6 wounds back a turn.
Otherwise sounds good. Hoping for a points drop too.
Running the maths (well i did a 100,000 rolls using a computer program) its interesting actually how little you gain re-rolling shots if you re-roll at the point of an average.
Anyone had any thoughts on the use of Combat Elixirs?
I considered making T5 terminators, but to be honest it seems much more 'Emperors Children' to go with +1 attacks. With the guaranteed charge it makes cheap chainaxe terminators fairly blendy.
Also considering +1 attack for Warp Talons. With a guaranteed charge and 3 attacks each rerolling all wounds they may actually finally be somewhat worthwhile playing with!
small_gods wrote: I've been looking at the WE red butchers Terminators.
I have 10 of lightning claw Terminators that could be really good with 8 attacks each reroll str 5 -2ap attacks.
Only thing is how do you get them in combat? I've thought of using the +1 charge WL trait and icon of wrath but still feels hit and miss.
This is exactly why I was interesting in emperors children.
For the same points, you only get 5 attacks each instead of 8, but you get a guaranteed (well, nearly) charge. Spend an extra CP and you get exploding attacks as well. Might end up a little more expensive in CP, but in my opinion its worth it. The Red Butchers might be stronger and cheaper (in CP), but if they fail the charge they're just a very pointy paperweight.
Niiru wrote: Alpha Legion - Renascent Infiltration - What unit would be good for this? AL has no charge improvements, so it seems best used on something with short-range but powerful shooting, that would normally require expensive transportation to get to where it should be. Chaincannon havocs might work, but you'd only be able to do it with a single unit of 5. A big 10-man squad of Plasma-Chosen might be a nasty surprise, basically the same as the plasma-terminator suicide drop, but cheaper. Berserkers might work with a banner, but it would be a risk as they can fail the charge.
I thought the max number of combi-Plasmas you could have in a squad were 5? Would the rest of the chosen just be taken without additional equipment?
Niiru wrote: Alpha Legion - Renascent Infiltration - What unit would be good for this? AL has no charge improvements, so it seems best used on something with short-range but powerful shooting, that would normally require expensive transportation to get to where it should be. Chaincannon havocs might work, but you'd only be able to do it with a single unit of 5. A big 10-man squad of Plasma-Chosen might be a nasty surprise, basically the same as the plasma-terminator suicide drop, but cheaper. Berserkers might work with a banner, but it would be a risk as they can fail the charge.
I thought the max number of combi-Plasmas you could have in a squad were 5? Would the rest of the chosen just be taken without additional equipment?
I'd have to double check my codex, I thought the remaining chosen could still get combi-bolters for some reason but maybe not. Still probably worth it for the ablative wounds and extra attacks if they get into a fight.
I'm leaning more towards emperors children being a stronger contender for the glass-cannon army at the moment though.
small_gods wrote: I've been looking at the WE red butchers Terminators.
I have 10 of lightning claw Terminators that could be really good with 8 attacks each reroll str 5 -2ap attacks.
Only thing is how do you get them in combat? I've thought of using the +1 charge WL trait and icon of wrath but still feels hit and miss.
This is exactly why I was interesting in emperors children.
For the same points, you only get 5 attacks each instead of 8, but you get a guaranteed (well, nearly) charge. Spend an extra CP and you get exploding attacks as well. Might end up a little more expensive in CP, but in my opinion its worth it. The Red Butchers might be stronger and cheaper (in CP), but if they fail the charge they're just a very pointy paperweight.
I suppose if you run a min bat of red cosairs, if I make huron my warlord I could have 4 relics to spread around!
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also I have warp talons and EC warptalons look nuts. Maybe warptalons t2, Terminators t3?
Niiru wrote: Alpha Legion - Renascent Infiltration - What unit would be good for this? AL has no charge improvements, so it seems best used on something with short-range but powerful shooting, that would normally require expensive transportation to get to where it should be. Chaincannon havocs might work, but you'd only be able to do it with a single unit of 5. A big 10-man squad of Plasma-Chosen might be a nasty surprise, basically the same as the plasma-terminator suicide drop, but cheaper. Berserkers might work with a banner, but it would be a risk as they can fail the charge.
I thought the max number of combi-Plasmas you could have in a squad were 5? Would the rest of the chosen just be taken without additional equipment?
I'd have to double check my codex, I thought the remaining chosen could still get combi-bolters for some reason but maybe not. Still probably worth it for the ablative wounds and extra attacks if they get into a fight.
I'm leaning more towards emperors children being a stronger contender for the glass-cannon army at the moment though.
Including the sarge, you could take 6 plasmas, one guy would need to be a regular plas and sarge would have to be combo plas but 4 could be either. They can all take a free chainsword so a unit of ten would put out 41 attacks on the charge, and the 4 regular guys get to keep their boltgun as well to shoot with on the drop.
Ideally, you're looking at 10 chosen rocking 6 plasmas/4 boltgun, and 10 chainswords, for 206 pts. Depending on what you want them to do, slaneesh would let them pop off 24 plasma shots in rapid fire range. Ideally they're combiplas except for the one guy who has to be plasma, then you can fire both profiles in an emergency against a target like orks. Khorne would let them charge in and unexpectedly murder something with 82 attacks. Seems a waste not to stick something on the sarge, perhaps a powerfist would be a good middle ground, or a thunder hammer. Not really sure yet.
Seems like a hidden gem for Alpha legion. They're a glass hammer but that unit being infiltrated in with new strat to essentially deepstrike/outflank into backfield would be very powerful. You can use conceal to protect them, or drop them in with other units like a tide of traitors cultist unit, deepstriking terminators, or other units that can quickly get up the table. They're not very hard to kill by themselves but used in conjunction with all the other sneaky tricks most opponents might be hard pressed to kill them with everything else going on.
Played my Word Bearers against a friend’s World Eaters yesterday
Took photos and might blog it, but a few takeaways:
- you really need them CP, don’t scrimp on the troops
- Malefic Tome is interesting, I got a couple of super smites off and the flexibility of an extra spell is ok on a MoP, I did use all four over the course of the game
- an extra Wound and D3 extra healing on a Disco Lord isn’t enough. Maybe a Crown of the Blasphemer plus Cursed Earth?
- A Red Butcher Terminator Lord can just run at a Maulerfiend and be like, ‘so long, a-Bowser’
Automatically Appended Next Post: Maybe Diabolist (6+++, +3 against MW) is workable on LD? I dunno, I can’t help but feel like the Possessed ones are the best WB WLTs
lindsay40k wrote: Played my Word Bearers against a friend’s World Eaters yesterday
Took photos and might blog it, but a few takeaways:
- you really need them CP, don’t scrimp on the troops
- Malefic Tome is interesting, I got a couple of super smites off and the flexibility of an extra spell is ok on a MoP, I did use all four over the course of the game
- an extra Wound and D3 extra healing on a Disco Lord isn’t enough. Maybe a Crown of the Blasphemer plus Cursed Earth?
- A Red Butcher Terminator Lord can just run at a Maulerfiend and be like, ‘so long, a-Bowser’
Automatically Appended Next Post: Maybe Diabolist (6+++, +3 against MW) is workable on LD? I dunno, I can’t help but feel like the Possessed ones are the best WB WLTs
It was a Spearhead:
- Disco Lord: Baleflamer, regen WT - MoP: Malefic Tome, Cursed Earth, Infernal Power, Mutated invigoration, Smite
- Maulerfiend: Lashers
- Venomcrawler
- Obliterator
- 15 Possessed
Not what I’d intended to field - my list had a Slaaneshi Daemons detachment and I forgot to pack it. So, this cannibalised half my list with my sideboard. Since I was facing World Eaters, losing my T1 charges and bringing in something with a gun was not an issue at all
I lost 10-11, largely because I had a bunch of Tactical Objectives for my MoP to kill stuff, and he spent six turns kicking a Rhino’s tires only for it to pass every save and only ever take 1MW from Smites
Eventually, the Rhino fell, but by then a Red Butcher Chaos Lord was on top of him, and even though it had only one wound left, I didn’t survive the eleven PF attacks to have a go at slapping it to death
Hexagramic autosave was hilarious. The look on your opponent’s face when you just burn a CP and say, yeah, this dice is a 6 now
Overall, pretty happy with the new WB stuff. Regardless of my list, I always take a DA and/or wizard, and I do like Possessed, so I reckon I’m personally going to feel the benefit of the rebalancing relics and strats, even if our Legion Traits are disappointing. Looking forwards to fielding them in a better planned game, hopefully before every Codex gains supplementary access to autosave and autospell and deny falling back and a mountain of D2 attacks
Automatically Appended Next Post: Do we reckon that Daemon Princes (and other Daemon HQ) will retain access to Exalted Possession, and that winged DPs & JP Chaos Lords will retain +1M from it? I can see a possessing Daemon getting the big promotion, but I’m veering towards no on the latter - Warp Talons don’t gain any speed, and EP is pretty clearly an alternate avenue for using a Gal Vorbak, which means more weight to carry. It’ll still be handy if they don’t - access to Khorne & Nurgle & Slaanesh Daemon auras is tidy.
I guess Warp Talons and CoD won’t gain the Possessed keyword… it’s not an exact fit for their fluff?
Thanks for sharing. Great to hear some success with WBs out in the wild.
Re: DP w/ Exalted Possession: given that the rule's wording says they gain access to the daemon & possessed keywords if they don't already have them, I think we can safely say that DPs will keep their access. Don't see why they wouldn't allow DPs/JP lords to keep the +1M.
My concern is that RAI, EP represents the warrior gaining the supernatural metabolism & athleticism of the Possessed. Having better legs & heart doesn’t affect the thrust of your jetpack.
I’ve just noticed something: EC can have an overwhelmingly high chance of a Kharybdis making a charge on arrival. Throw in some means of preventing fall back... this could be big
The HQ is possessed, the daemon could turn the jump pack into a pez dispenser if it wanted to. I don't believe it's fully explained how far the daemon's ability to warp the armour of the marine it's possessing goes, but Ithink it's safe to assume it could affect the jump pack as well.
lindsay40k wrote: My concern is that RAI, EP represents the warrior gaining the supernatural metabolism & athleticism of the Possessed. Having better legs & heart doesn’t affect the thrust of your jetpack.
I’ve just noticed something: EC can have an overwhelmingly high chance of a Kharybdis making a charge on arrival. Throw in some means of preventing fall back... this could be big
You get a better running start to use the Jump Pack with, duh.
This is the list I'm considering at the moment. Nurglings and Cultists for screens. Noise Marines and Terminators for killing enemy screens. Terminators are a target for a guaranteed charge, and possibly even +1 attacks for 4 attacks each on the charge. Noise Marines might (if needed) get the +1S +1D strat if they need to burn down something big/elite.
One LordDisco has -2 to be hit, the other is just standard (though I may switch the HQ's around a little, and give the second Disco the Raiment Revulsive (as I currently have 1 or 2 relics I haven't assigned).
Everything else (Skullreaver, Syll, Contemptor, Discos) are there to answer the eternal question - Will it blend?
Probably not a very strong list, but looks fun to build and play with (to me anyway ahah)
lindsay40k wrote: My concern is that RAI, EP represents the warrior gaining the supernatural metabolism & athleticism of the Possessed. Having better legs & heart doesn’t affect the thrust of your jetpack.
Innumerable supernatural explanations could be offered. I wouldn't worry.
lindsay40k wrote: My concern is that RAI, EP represents the warrior gaining the supernatural metabolism & athleticism of the Possessed. Having better legs & heart doesn’t affect the thrust of your jetpack.
I’ve just noticed something: EC can have an overwhelmingly high chance of a Kharybdis making a charge on arrival. Throw in some means of preventing fall back... this could be big
You get a better running start to use the Jump Pack with, duh.
There are three main things to think about when using berserkers.
1. Getting there: Two "best" methods are drills or dreadclaws. Rhinos can be used, but I prefer to use those as a mobile LOS blocker , with 3-4 moving in a wedge.
2. Equipment: I've always preferred axe + pistol as world eaters. Plasma can be nice to kill a model you tri-pointed in your opponent's phase so you can charge away. Champion is either budget chainaxe, lightning claws or powerfist. Axe for well.. budget. Claws for more reliable wounds without needed a exalted champion. Fist because, well... 8 s10 ap-3 attacks on the charge is juicy as heck. If I have points left over I'll upgrade chainaxe to power axe.
3. To VotLW or not: Well, basically the last thing. This and soultearer can let two squads take down a vehicle each fairly reliably. Just make sure you have the CP to support it. Fury of Khorne should only be for fist champs or HQs.
My strategy as world eaters is to put 64 of them down, run them forward, and axe as many questions as I can. Not rocket surgery. . 2k game you can do 2 mirror battalions. Apostle, Champion, 4x zerker squads (axes with 5 bolt 3 plasma pistols) Finish out with a pair of heldrakes and you're good to go. Keep your 5++ prayer going and run them down, and hope that your 3+ 5++ and buckets of dice can take care of whatever you catch.
Once I get the new rules from F&F I'll be sure to use all the new strats to give a better answer. Assuming the leaks are correct the +1" charge trait will be an autotake for WE.
I do axe/pistol so I have some shooting at all. Plus, as I said, killing off the last few models in a unit left in a unit so you can charge something else. Lastly 3 overcharged plasma pistols can do a decent dent in heavier targets.
Oh. Something I forgot. Don't forget your grenades! Throw that krak!!!
StarHunter25 wrote: I do axe/pistol so I have some shooting at all. Plus, as I said, killing off the last few models in a unit left in a unit so you can charge something else. Lastly 3 overcharged plasma pistols can do a decent dent in heavier targets.
Oh. Something I forgot. Don't forget your grenades! Throw that krak!!!
Nice fair enough.
I've also been considering using the new strat for some Red Butcher Terminators.
But then the question comes of what to arm them with.
I'm leaning towards lightning claw/combi bolter. But the claw is very pricey so maybe the chainaxes might be better.
Thinking more I feel S5 AP -2 rerolling to wound is much better than S6 AP-1, but you do pay for it.
A few powerfists might come in handy too, considering 8 S10 attacks per Terminator is hard to argue with.
I currently have a really hard time to come up with a good Chaos Space Marines list for 1250 Points. I plan to attend an event with rather strict restrictions like:
1250 Points, Only one Faction and Detachment. No Lord of Wars or Titanic Units and you can only take one of each unit, unless it is in the standard slot.
I really started to hate cultists as they seem to just be a waste of points and the normal space Marines are just super bad compared with interecessors.
Furthermore I find it really hard to think about good ways to counter space marines, since they will be everywhere and you propably need one unit that can kill an leviathan dreadnought. I also already plan with the rules of Faith and Fury so I looked towards the Iron Warriors, as I liked the legion trait because of stealthy beeing a popular choice. Furthermore I think that the Buffed to hell Obliterators can blow up even an Iron Hands buffed Leviathan Dreadnought in one round of shooting. But I really have no Idea what else I can put in the list.
Have you made good results with other units in such a limited environment? I thought about a Chaos Decimator with Soulburner Petards for the mortal Wounds, or a Contemptor Dreadnought with Chainclaws if I might run into Centurions or anything else with a high wound count, since they do 4 dmg flat in close combat.
I currently have a really hard time to come up with a good Chaos Space Marines list for 1250 Points. I plan to attend an event with rather strict restrictions like:
1250 Points, Only one Faction and Detachment. No Lord of Wars or Titanic Units and you can only take one of each unit, unless it is in the standard slot.
I really started to hate cultists as they seem to just be a waste of points and the normal space Marines are just super bad compared with interecessors.
Furthermore I find it really hard to think about good ways to counter space marines, since they will be everywhere and you propably need one unit that can kill an leviathan dreadnought. I also already plan with the rules of Faith and Fury so I looked towards the Iron Warriors, as I liked the legion trait because of stealthy beeing a popular choice. Furthermore I think that the Buffed to hell Obliterators can blow up even an Iron Hands buffed Leviathan Dreadnought in one round of shooting. But I really have no Idea what else I can put in the list.
Have you made good results with other units in such a limited environment? I thought about a Chaos Decimator with Soulburner Petards for the mortal Wounds, or a Contemptor Dreadnought with Chainclaws if I might run into Centurions or anything else with a high wound count, since they do 4 dmg flat in close combat.
Don't use the soulburner petards, they are a trap. They are super expensive for a few mortal wounds and are hopeless vs hordes (we have a lot of plaguebearers, guardsmen and sheild drones in our lical scene).
I use AL oblits all the time with the devestation battery wl trait and relic (which Iron Warrior get for free and then some). They are very potent.
I think if you bring havocs with reaper chaincannons you'll do well against marines and anything the oblits struggle to get through. If you play with plenty of LOS blocking terrain you can get away with just a rhino. I have the drill as well but tend to use a rhino out of LOS.
Cultists are fine as objective campers and havocks, bikes and chosen are just a better than csm squads for very few points more. I'd just run oblits, cultists, rcc havocks, some bikes for mobility and then daemon prince/lord/sorcerer to round out hqs.
Here's a question for people - What do you think the best / strongest striking use for Renascent Infiltration would be?
I'm thinking berserkers might be interesting to throw at someone. Havocs would be good if you could take more than 5 of them.
Another option is Chosen. 6 Plasmas isn't a terrible strike force. Could even go with 10 thunder hammers, but unfortunately AL don't have any charge-range stratagems like Emp.Children got.
Niiru wrote: Here's a question for people - What do you think the best / strongest striking use for Renascent Infiltration would be?
I'm thinking berserkers might be interesting to throw at someone. Havocs would be good if you could take more than 5 of them.
Another option is Chosen. 6 Plasmas isn't a terrible strike force. Could even go with 10 thunder hammers, but unfortunately AL don't have any charge-range stratagems like Emp.Children got.
Renascent is infantry only right?
Honestly beyond the ones you mentioned maybee a big cultists blob.
Other then that an utility tool, to either save or reposition a unit.
Niiru wrote: Here's a question for people - What do you think the best / strongest striking use for Renascent Infiltration would be?
I'm thinking berserkers might be interesting to throw at someone. Havocs would be good if you could take more than 5 of them.
Another option is Chosen. 6 Plasmas isn't a terrible strike force. Could even go with 10 thunder hammers, but unfortunately AL don't have any charge-range stratagems like Emp.Children got.
Renascent is infantry only right?
Honestly beyond the ones you mentioned maybee a big cultists blob.
Other then that an utility tool, to either save or reposition a unit.
Yeh infantry only.
I'm not sure if Berserkers or Hammer-Chosen would work though, as you only get their icon of wrath charge reroll to try and get them into the fight. Vaguely recall the chances of that succeeding is only about 50%.
Niiru wrote: Here's a question for people - What do you think the best / strongest striking use for Renascent Infiltration would be?
I'm thinking berserkers might be interesting to throw at someone. Havocs would be good if you could take more than 5 of them.
Another option is Chosen. 6 Plasmas isn't a terrible strike force. Could even go with 10 thunder hammers, but unfortunately AL don't have any charge-range stratagems like Emp.Children got.
Renascent is infantry only right?
Honestly beyond the ones you mentioned maybee a big cultists blob.
Other then that an utility tool, to either save or reposition a unit.
Yeh infantry only.
I'm not sure if Berserkers or Hammer-Chosen would work though, as you only get their icon of wrath charge reroll to try and get them into the fight. Vaguely recall the chances of that succeeding is only about 50%.
Yep, with command reroll about 67% i believe.
Honestly beyond chosen, either noise marines, plague marines or havocs or cultists.
Melee troops would not really work with that.
I currently have a really hard time to come up with a good Chaos Space Marines list for 1250 Points. I plan to attend an event with rather strict restrictions like:
1250 Points, Only one Faction and Detachment. No Lord of Wars or Titanic Units and you can only take one of each unit, unless it is in the standard slot.
I really started to hate cultists as they seem to just be a waste of points and the normal space Marines are just super bad compared with interecessors.
Furthermore I find it really hard to think about good ways to counter space marines, since they will be everywhere and you propably need one unit that can kill an leviathan dreadnought. I also already plan with the rules of Faith and Fury so I looked towards the Iron Warriors, as I liked the legion trait because of stealthy beeing a popular choice. Furthermore I think that the Buffed to hell Obliterators can blow up even an Iron Hands buffed Leviathan Dreadnought in one round of shooting. But I really have no Idea what else I can put in the list.
Have you made good results with other units in such a limited environment? I thought about a Chaos Decimator with Soulburner Petards for the mortal Wounds, or a Contemptor Dreadnought with Chainclaws if I might run into Centurions or anything else with a high wound count, since they do 4 dmg flat in close combat.
Don't use the soulburner petards, they are a trap. They are super expensive for a few mortal wounds and are hopeless vs hordes (we have a lot of plaguebearers, guardsmen and sheild drones in our lical scene).
I use AL oblits all the time with the devestation battery wl trait and relic (which Iron Warrior get for free and then some). They are very potent.
I think if you bring havocs with reaper chaincannons you'll do well against marines and anything the oblits struggle to get through. If you play with plenty of LOS blocking terrain you can get away with just a rhino. I have the drill as well but tend to use a rhino out of LOS.
Cultists are fine as objective campers and havocks, bikes and chosen are just a better than csm squads for very few points more. I'd just run oblits, cultists, rcc havocks, some bikes for mobility and then daemon prince/lord/sorcerer to round out hqs.
Yeah, agreed on this, if it’s single detachment and you’re going IW, devbat all the way. I love the Decimator’s bucket but, yeah, it’s not good atm.
Cultists are absolutely a good call on this front to keep the Oblits alive. Is there an argument for fearless WT & DA on the Cultists?
If you want something that can dish out a melee beating, DP’s probably the best bet? HA makes Axe of the Forgefather look like a pretty solid dreadkiller
Yoyoyo wrote: Infiltrate + Faceless Commander WT would also synergize well to reposition HQ units that can't normally deepstrike.
I had considered this too, giving some extra bonus' to a terminator squad. But I don't think there's any HQ units that are actually worth moving like that. Dark Apostle is... mostly useless, due to not being able to throw out any buffs (the DA rules really are terrible). Warpsmith needs to be near vehicles really anyway. Exalted Champ only works in the fight phase, and charging from deep strike isn't great as we've discussed.
All the useful HQ's (Lords, Sorcerers, Abaddon) already have deepstrike built in (for a handful of extra points, but always worth it I think?)
Sure it's still an interesting and potentially useful tool to have in your pocket to reposition something like a Lord Discordant at some point if it gets trapped. It's a shame the Dark Apostle rules are so janky, would have been nice to throw him up with some terminators.
The only HQ it might work for actually is the Master of Possession, if you deepstrike him with some Warp Talons. Not sure that'd be worth it though.
Yoyoyo wrote: Infiltrate + Faceless Commander WT would also synergize well to reposition HQ units that can't normally deepstrike.
I had considered this too, giving some extra bonus' to a terminator squad. But I don't think there's any HQ units that are actually worth moving like that. Dark Apostle is... mostly useless, due to not being able to throw out any buffs (the DA rules really are terrible). Warpsmith needs to be near vehicles really anyway. Exalted Champ only works in the fight phase, and charging from deep strike isn't great as we've discussed.
All the useful HQ's (Lords, Sorcerers, Abaddon) already have deepstrike built in (for a handful of extra points, but always worth it I think?)
Sure it's still an interesting and potentially useful tool to have in your pocket to reposition something like a Lord Discordant at some point if it gets trapped. It's a shame the Dark Apostle rules are so janky, would have been nice to throw him up with some terminators.
The only HQ it might work for actually is the Master of Possession, if you deepstrike him with some Warp Talons. Not sure that'd be worth it though.
Totally not worth it. WTs (other than EC) need to deep strike with a CL for the Host Raptorial trait, which makes Infernal Power redundant. They survive by tripointing and die from small arms fire, which makes Cursed Earth redundant. The other spells don’t even affect WTs
Totally not worth it. WTs (other than EC) need to deep strike with a CL for the Host Raptorial trait
This is exactly why I'm seriously considering allying some EC with my AL, although I'm also considering Night Lords as they have a 3D6 charge strat that also sounds good.
Not sure which strat is better tbh, the EC or the NL one. 3D6 vs changing any dice to a 6. Though the EC one works on terminators too, which probably makes it a winner regardless.
It's a shame you can't mix-and-match abilities. Being able to Alpha Legion deepstrike a squad of 10x thunder hammer chosen, and then us the EC strat to charge with them, would actually bring some of the Chaos units up to the loyalist marines power level.
Niiru wrote: The only HQ it might work for actually is the Master of Possession, if you deepstrike him with some Warp Talons. Not sure that'd be worth it though.
Totally not worth it. WTs (other than EC) need to deep strike with a CL for the Host Raptorial trait, which makes Infernal Power redundant. They survive by tripointing and die from small arms fire, which makes Cursed Earth redundant. The other spells don’t even affect WTs
You know what is interesting though -- the MoP can summon in the psychic phase. So you could totally jump wherever needed and summon a unit of Flamers to roast something, a Poxbringer to drop a Leviathan or Knight to T7, CC units to hide behind cover and then assault in the next turn... I'm not familiar with Daemons but I'm sure there's some cool ideas there.
AL MoP sounds interesting, BUT, summoning is iffy at best in many cases, and whilest the MoP can migitate that somewhat and has not the urge to detonate as soon as he attempts it but i am still not sure it works well enough.
Or maybee i am not seeing the bigger synergy.
Infiltrating MoP Summoning would be interesting if it didn’t rely on at least an average roll on your psychic test, a not above average roll on your opponent’s psychic test, and them not having a hard Counter like WE, BT, SoB
…I might try Advancing my WB MoP, then dropping thirty Pink Horrors that (mostly) can’t be DtW’d. That way, their firepower isn’t diminished by advancing themselves, or my losing first turn
Totally not worth it. WTs (other than EC) need to deep strike with a CL for the Host Raptorial trait
This is exactly why I'm seriously considering allying some EC with my AL, although I'm also considering Night Lords as they have a 3D6 charge strat that also sounds good.
Not sure which strat is better tbh, the EC or the NL one. 3D6 vs changing any dice to a 6. Though the EC one works on terminators too, which probably makes it a winner regardless.
It's a shame you can't mix-and-match abilities. Being able to Alpha Legion deepstrike a squad of 10x thunder hammer chosen, and then us the EC strat to charge with them, would actually bring some of the Chaos units up to the loyalist marines power level.
As a BA player, I can tell you the NL strat has more room to sting you - EC seems superior, and when combined with a Host Raptorial chaos lord, it's practically a guaranteed charge. NL may get you further, but beware Tzeentch's curse when you roll triple 1.
Thinking about putting MSU of beserkers in a flyer. I forget the name but it has t7, 16w, 3+ and -1 to hit. Combined with a Dark Apostle's benediction that could up to a -2. All for around 300pts for 20 models to be transported.
In support either iron warriors las havocs in a devestation battery, or perhaps some heldrakes to zoom up with the beserkers.
But then again 16w, 3+, -2 to hit on t1 still probably isnt reliable enough. But the flyers are more able to drop your boys off within 9" if needed.
Maybe I'll splurge and get the thunderhawk.
30w, t9, -2 to hit and enemies subtract 12" from guns shooting at it.
On average it would take something like 200 battlecannon shots to take it down (no rerolls hitting on 5s, so more like 150 with rr).
weaver9 wrote: Thinking about putting MSU of beserkers in a flyer. I forget the name but it has t7, 16w, 3+ and -1 to hit. Combined with a Dark Apostle's benediction that could up to a -2. All for around 300pts for 20 models to be transported.
In support either iron warriors las havocs in a devestation battery, or perhaps some heldrakes to zoom up with the beserkers.
I've been considering this as well - I think it's the Storm Eagle Assault ship or whatever. Filling that with zerkers, augmenting it with the Dark Apostle's prayer, and zipping that thing into enemy lines does seem pretty gnarly. Perhaps a couple of Heldrakes acting as escorts could be pretty intense.
Totally not worth it. WTs (other than EC) need to deep strike with a CL for the Host Raptorial trait
This is exactly why I'm seriously considering allying some EC with my AL, although I'm also considering Night Lords as they have a 3D6 charge strat that also sounds good.
Not sure which strat is better tbh, the EC or the NL one. 3D6 vs changing any dice to a 6. Though the EC one works on terminators too, which probably makes it a winner regardless.
It's a shame you can't mix-and-match abilities. Being able to Alpha Legion deepstrike a squad of 10x thunder hammer chosen, and then us the EC strat to charge with them, would actually bring some of the Chaos units up to the loyalist marines power level.
As a BA player, I can tell you the NL strat has more room to sting you - EC seems superior, and when combined with a Host Raptorial chaos lord, it's practically a guaranteed charge. NL may get you further, but beware Tzeentch's curse when you roll triple 1.
So making one dice a 6 is better than rolling 3D6 (for a 9" charge from deepstrike)?
Problem with having to take a Host Raptorial chaos lord, is that it changes the 1CP cost for a deepstrike into a 3CP cost. 1CP is great, 3CP is way too expensive just to get one unit into melee. This is why I never even consider host raptorial (or any of the other vigilus special detachments), they're just way too expensive in CP for what they bring to the table, unless you are 100% building a list around them (eg. 3x 10man Talons squads, or bringing 5 daemon engines, or... I don't even remember what the others do).
I like Night Lords for the fluff (thought I do like EmpC too), and it's a tough call between them. NL having the 'no falling back for enemy' strat is handy, so is the 'turn off enemy aura' strat. EmpC get better charges and stronger Noise Marines (as troops, in fact).
Why not both. NL has some very potent strats/abilities not replicable anywhere else. Add to that the ability to threaten a much larger range with mok raptors with icon allowing them to easily tag multiple units. NL also have 2 ways to increase charge range and increase hit rolls of any 2 units. Even csm can become fairly threatening hitting on 2s with dttfe triggering on 4s..
EC are not nearly as assaulty but have one almost infallible charge a supremely good redeploy strat and d2 assault troops to destroy primaris and even mech.
dominuschao wrote: Why not both. NL has some very potent strats/abilities not replicable anywhere else. Add to that the ability to threaten a much larger range with mok raptors with icon allowing them to easily tag multiple units. NL also have 2 ways to increase charge range and increase hit rolls of any 2 units. Even csm can become fairly threatening hitting on 2s with dttfe triggering on 4s..
EC are not nearly as assaulty but have one almost infallible charge a supremely good redeploy strat and d2 assault troops to destroy primaris and even mech.
Ya I think I definitely want both.
I already have Alpha Legion, which gives the ability to deepstrike any unit (deepstriking noise marines behind enemy lines might be handy, or throwing a HQ somewhere unexpected), as well as making a unit untargetable and -2 to hit Lord Discordants. Shooting after falling back is nice too.
Alpha Legion, Night Lords and Emperors Children are the legions I like, and it's hard to narrow it down to just two to focus on haha.
dominuschao wrote: Why not both. NL has some very potent strats/abilities not replicable anywhere else. Add to that the ability to threaten a much larger range with mok raptors with icon allowing them to easily tag multiple units. NL also have 2 ways to increase charge range and increase hit rolls of any 2 units. Even csm can become fairly threatening hitting on 2s with dttfe triggering on 4s..
EC are not nearly as assaulty but have one almost infallible charge a supremely good redeploy strat and d2 assault troops to destroy primaris and even mech.
Ya I think I definitely want both.
I already have Alpha Legion, which gives the ability to deepstrike any unit (deepstriking noise marines behind enemy lines might be handy, or throwing a HQ somewhere unexpected), as well as making a unit untargetable and -2 to hit Lord Discordants. Shooting after falling back is nice too.
Alpha Legion, Night Lords and Emperors Children are the legions I like, and it's hard to narrow it down to just two to focus on haha.
I'm in the same dilemma! But it's a tough call. I'm working on all 3 atm.. That gives superior redeploy, 3 units with potential boosted assaults, tons of disruption and lots of anti primaris weaponry. Plus untargetable oblits of course haha.
dominuschao wrote: Why not both. NL has some very potent strats/abilities not replicable anywhere else. Add to that the ability to threaten a much larger range with mok raptors with icon allowing them to easily tag multiple units. NL also have 2 ways to increase charge range and increase hit rolls of any 2 units. Even csm can become fairly threatening hitting on 2s with dttfe triggering on 4s..
EC are not nearly as assaulty but have one almost infallible charge a supremely good redeploy strat and d2 assault troops to destroy primaris and even mech.
Ya I think I definitely want both.
I already have Alpha Legion, which gives the ability to deepstrike any unit (deepstriking noise marines behind enemy lines might be handy, or throwing a HQ somewhere unexpected), as well as making a unit untargetable and -2 to hit Lord Discordants. Shooting after falling back is nice too.
Alpha Legion, Night Lords and Emperors Children are the legions I like, and it's hard to narrow it down to just two to focus on haha.
I'm in the same dilemma! But it's a tough call. I'm working on all 3 atm.. That gives superior redeploy, 3 units with potential boosted assaults, tons of disruption and lots of anti primaris weaponry. Plus untargetable oblits of course haha.
I've considered that, but souping up 3 different legions just feels... bad. If I played serious competitions I might consider it, but I only play with friends so I would prefer having a fun (decently powerful) fluffy list.
Alpha and Night Lords fit nicely, but the NL abilities are... ok, but compared to Emp.Children they seem lacklustre. Being able to give terminators a guaranteed charge (as well as bonus attacks) seems like it might be enough to turn a 10-man combi/axe terminator unit into something actually deadly.
Going back to summoning, I think the core advantage is you can call in whatever you see as most advantageous. So it's less about synergy than opportunity. What you'd decide to summon would probably be more contingent on the enemy's forces and the objectives/terrain than your own army.
The downside is the options are more or less limitless, so it gets complicated fast. There was a top 10 LVO list with ~600pts in summoning, the player basically had an entire tray of models he'd choose from based on what he wanted at the time. I think if you wanted to incorporate summoning into a CSM army, you need to restrict yourself to a few core choices. Otherwise you risk getting lost in the possibilities.
DeathKorp_Rider wrote: Hey, I was thinking of trying Slaanesh Chaos Marines, anyone have any suggestions?
EC have a weak Legion Trait, but their Noise Marines have had a decent buff with new Stratagems that, since they’re Troops, are self-funding. They can use Warp Talons to counter heavy OW without heavily investing in a specialist detachment, Plus, no doubt, the ‘Fulgrim is coming out in six months’ rumour has been reset again
WB have a terrible Legion Trait but their psykers and Possessed have had such a massive boost they’re (appropriately) worth considering if you fancy a Daemonkin list with lots of moving parts (potentially including a character who denies falling back, which is amazing when it works, and incidentally has nice synergy with melee EC allies)
IW have a mediocre Legion Trait but outstanding firepower, IMO their Slaaneshi Obliterators are probably going to be a major feature of the coming year’s metagame
AL have a strong Legion Trait and all sorts of moving parts that give your opponent a massive headache when you know what you’re doing, and Endless Cacophony suits them very well
Flawless Host are serious challengers to the World Eaters’ crown when it comes to CSM melee, they're like ruddy Genestealers in power armour
NL and BL (and CS) have little distinct stuff that especially screams Slaanesh
RCCP batteries can fit in pretty much any CSM list
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also second @Niiru’s observation on EC Terminators being able to charge from DS - that’s a very interesting ability on a unit that can also take a load of plasma guns and arrive within double tap range
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also second @Niiru’s observation on EC Terminators being able to charge from DS - that’s a very interesting ability on a unit that can also take a load of plasma guns and arrive within double tap range
I'm worried this is a trap, because I'm really tempted to run a squad of terminators with actual melee weapons (like... 10 chain fists) because they can actually drop in, melt some chaff in one direction with combibolters, and then still get a guaranteed charge at another unit to murder hobo. They really seem to become worth their points when you can get two decent rounds of killing out of them all straight from deepstrike - something you could never do before now.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also second @Niiru’s observation on EC Terminators being able to charge from DS - that’s a very interesting ability on a unit that can also take a load of plasma guns and arrive within double tap range
I'm worried this is a trap, because I'm really tempted to run a squad of terminators with actual melee weapons (like... 10 chain fists) because they can actually drop in, melt some chaff in one direction with combibolters, and then still get a guaranteed charge at another unit to murder hobo. They really seem to become worth their points when you can get two decent rounds of killing out of them all straight from deepstrike - something you could never do before now.
I mean, i'd not pick the chainfists, for obvious reasons namely price, but depending on how the enemy built his field up you could such a squad as breakthrough unit.
Shoot bubblewrap infront of high priority target away, drop in termites, use said termites to further remove bubblewrap, use termites to assault high priority target.
If you manage to catch a knight, then you just got their worth back and have them standing around in enemy territory.
if you however didn't catch that high priority target because the enemy has more wrap or positioned better ( deeper) then you just wasted a huge ammount of points.
You can always just take a few chainfists, you don’t need to go overboard with them, just enough that any dreadnought types can’t efficiently counter them
I really want to make the BL pantheon strat work. Would it be overkill to take a decimator, give it all marks and pile the daemon buffs? Butcher cannons with tzeentch would be +1 to wound, nurgle locus would add one damge and khorne could add another shot on a 5 + via the crown and the previous +1 to wound and to add a cherry on top you would inclict -2 ld on a casualty. Which may help with slaanesh psyhic powers mortal wounds, but getting 3 buffs is alteady not bad
Roknar wrote: I really want to make the BL pantheon strat work. Would it be overkill to take a decimator, give it all marks and pile the daemon buffs? Butcher cannons with tzeentch would be +1 to wound, nurgle locus would add one damge and khorne could add another shot on a 5 + via the crown and the previous +1 to wound and to add a cherry on top you would inclict -2 ld on a casualty. Which may help with slaanesh psyhic powers mortal wounds, but getting 3 buffs is alteady not bad
I had similar thoughts with Oblits and concluded that, with no means to keep such a heavily invested unit alive (especially if you lose first turn) it’s always going to be a gimmick. It’s not long ago the meta was built to delete a Knight a turn. Pray for a non-Titanic keystone unit to be -1 to be hit and it’s still smoke
So, you’d have to build loads of redundancy into your list - have multiple units that you can have hulk out; basically, build a polytheist shooty Daemonkin list, BUT this means only one major unit a turn is actually going to benefit from the Daemonkin auras, which on balance probably isn’t as good as just having a load of Oblits and Defilers just reaping the aura off like a Nurgle Herald or Tzeentch’s Daemonspark with no CP buy-in (which Vect & GSC can just completely smash anyway)
Roknar wrote: I really want to make the BL pantheon strat work. Would it be overkill to take a decimator, give it all marks and pile the daemon buffs? Butcher cannons with tzeentch would be +1 to wound, nurgle locus would add one damge and khorne could add another shot on a 5 + via the crown and the previous +1 to wound and to add a cherry on top you would inclict -2 ld on a casualty. Which may help with slaanesh psyhic powers mortal wounds, but getting 3 buffs is alteady not bad
Dual butcher would be 130 pts right?
I guess if you wanted too, but imo thats a lot of eggs in a medicore basket.
The guys at the Nights at the Game Table Youtube channel pointed out an interesting combo for the WB.
Take a WB Chaos Lord with a jump pack and a thunderhammer. Give him the Exalted Possession WT so that he's a Daemon, with +1 S and +1 attack. Make him Nurgle, and ally in a Nurgle Daemon psyker. Have the psyker buff the Lord with Virulent Blessing (+1 to the wound roll, and any wound roll of 7+ does double damage). When he attacks, pop VotLW for another +1 to wound and Revered Hosts to add one to his thunderhammer's damage.
Upshot: When the Lord rolls a 5 or 6 to wound, his thunderhammer will punch out 8 damage. This baseline Lord will have 5 attacks that benefit from this combo. It can also get crazier. If you can figure out how to put Soultearer Portent on him, the super-damage goes off on a 4+. Diabolic Strength pushes his attacks up to 6.
Generally annoyed that Marines are made insanely reliable and deadly all over the table and we're the Rube Goldberg machine to make crap units average faction.
Thanks, heh. Reivers aren't still not cheap enough.. DP going down -15p is unexpected for my nurgle DP. Csm being same points as marine scouts.. well.. makes havocs even more disappealling? Or wjst do you think?
Brian888 wrote: The guys at the Nights at the Game Table Youtube channel pointed out an interesting combo for the WB.
Take a WB Chaos Lord with a jump pack and a thunderhammer. Give him the Exalted Possession WT so that he's a Daemon, with +1 S and +1 attack. Make him Nurgle, and ally in a Nurgle Daemon psyker. Have the psyker buff the Lord with Virulent Blessing (+1 to the wound roll, and any wound roll of 7+ does double damage). When he attacks, pop VotLW for another +1 to wound and Revered Hosts to add one to his thunderhammer's damage.
Upshot: When the Lord rolls a 5 or 6 to wound, his thunderhammer will punch out 8 damage. This baseline Lord will have 5 attacks that benefit from this combo. It can also get crazier. If you can figure out how to put Soultearer Portent on him, the super-damage goes off on a 4+. Diabolic Strength pushes his attacks up to 6.
It's a pretty solid choice, prescience probably being a more useful buff, esp vs imperial. It'll definitely one shot an imp knight and pretty likely to one shot a chaos knight. Only problem being is that there are a lot of moving parts and lots of people being able to deny or cancel psychic powers.
I think out of the new choices I really like the world eater jump pack lord with gorefather and khorne disciple. You can make him kill a lot of stuff with just veterans and make him a red butcher or pay 3cp to fight again to one shot knights and the like. And he is 94 points!! Lord with thunder hammer is 133 points, with sprcerer and poxbringer 301 points!
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Xirax wrote: Thanks, heh. Reivers aren't still not cheap enough.. DP going down -15p is unexpected for my nurgle DP. Csm being same points as marine scouts.. well.. makes havocs even more disappealling? Or wjst do you think?
Havocks are great but just one shot wonders. But AL can protect them to make them 2/3 shot wonders!
11pt CSMs and cheaper flying Daemon Princes are making me pretty happy ngl. I'm expecting a Leviathan points jump in turn though.
Eldarain wrote: Generally annoyed that Marines are made insanely reliable and deadly all over the table and we're the Rube Goldberg machine to make crap units average faction.
Except our Goldberg Machine usually just ends up blowing up in our face.
My list was very similar to jim vesal list, with 3 daemon prince, plaguebearers and pink horror, ahriman and some character for buff my guys and make a good psichic phase and one contemptor dreddy with x2 c-beam cannon.
Any suggestion ? Which unit i have to focus ? And my main play strategy ? In 24” ragnge he fire too much and i can’t reach him for make some psichic damage
Not Online!!! wrote: 4 pts cultists seem accordingly to the CA discussion back on the menue.
Warp damn it, I came to this army to play embittered veterans of a 10,000 year old war, not to play discount imperial guard! How did I end up more bitter than them!?
Jokes aside, good for the army in a strictly performance sense, but the Chaos Space Marine squad just gets worse by the month it seems
Not Online!!! wrote: 4 pts cultists seem accordingly to the CA discussion back on the menue.
Warp damn it, I came to this army to play embittered veterans of a 10,000 year old war, not to play discount imperial guard! How did I end up more bitter than them!?
Jokes aside, good for the army in a strictly performance sense, but the Chaos Space Marine squad just gets worse by the month it seems
I'd be happy if it actually wore DISCOUNT guard, then atleast they wouldn't just be AP-1 marine fodder....
Also as a R&H player, give the fodder some darn respect mate !
Atm though
2 Warpsmiths and 3 Cultists RC generating 6 CP at 240 pts. (40 pts / CP)
2 warpsmiths and 3 x5 Marines generagint 8 CP at 285 pts. (35.625 pts /CP)
Meaning that Marines are better at CP generation now and secondly with cultists not benefiting from traits there is now an honest discussion to be had.
Exception of course when AL get's involved with AP-1 Cultists and mono shenanigans.
I am still questioning though why the 10'000 year old veterans are WORSE then Tacs and pay less for that.
Otoh mass assault CSM with RC corsar recycling make for the best simulation of an actual legion force in 40k probably.
How do people feel about deep striking plasma Raptors?
Two plasma guns, a combi plasma for 6 shots.
Taken in the host raptorial detachment they can reroll all misses for 1CP.
dan2026 wrote: How do people feel about deep striking plasma Raptors?
Two plasma guns, a combi plasma for 6 shots.
Taken in the host raptorial detachment they can reroll all misses for 1CP.
Worth it for 108 points? Or nah?
Edit, Made a mistake.
2CP (as you need to pay for the detachment). A minor point, but still needs to be factored in.
Other than that, whether it's points-efficient or not, someone else will have to weigh in. I've considered Raptors myself in a Night Lords or Emp.Children detachment, as they'd get charge boosts, but not sure charging raptors are ever worthwhile. Plasma might work though.
dan2026 wrote: How do people feel about deep striking plasma Raptors?
Two plasma guns, a combi plasma for 6 shots.
Taken in the host raptorial detachment they can reroll all misses for 1CP.
Worth it for 108 points? Or nah?
Edit, Made a mistake.
2CP (as you need to pay for the detachment). A minor point, but still needs to be factored in.
Other than that, whether it's points-efficient or not, someone else will have to weigh in. I've considered Raptors myself in a Night Lords or Emp.Children detachment, as they'd get charge boosts, but not sure charging raptors are ever worthwhile. Plasma might work though.
Yeah I dont think I'd ever want to charge Raptors. Thats what Warp Talons are for.
But Emp Children or Night Lords seem the obvious legions for them both.
If these 2W Cult Marines and 17pt Possessed and 4pt Cultist and 11pt CSM rumours prove true, Word Bearers will go up even farther
Aside from having access to all the cults, Cheaper CP & Possessed means buckets of 2W attacks, at the same time that even more 2W Infantry arrive in the metagame. AoS Blood Warriors will sell out, be repurposed into Berzerkers, and then cry in the face of Gal Vorbak
Refined my Slaanesh Daemonkin list today with more sources of CP. Got charged by a Bloodthirster and millions of Berzerkers. Lost my Warlord, but in return ate the lot of them. Her Wor,d Eaters drew loads of the new tac objs, but none for me. Drew the Domination tac obj, and two turns later cashed it in with Fiends running deep to grab the far Objectives. They’re actually pretty handy cheap touchdowners when facing an army that’s going to congregate on you anyway
Honestly considering trying polytheist Daemonkin. MoP, Sorc, 2 x Possessed - GP teams, 2 CD detachments bringing Loci and spells.
Nurgling Battalion & Gnarlmaw seems tempting. Extra damage from Locus & spell, endless charges from Gnarlmaw. A Possessed Axe jumplord can join them for rerolls & prevent fall back.
Tzeentch Battalion could bring Changeling to give the other horde 6++ & troll characters, and pink Horrors for some shooting & brimstones for some anchorage
Spawn seem like they could be added to a WB Possessed army fairly easily if you're already running an Apostle. Drop -1 to hit on the Possessed blob and then 5++ onto the Spawn.
BoomWolf wrote: Cult Marines are not 2W, but they do get a bit cheaper (rubric gun now free, so 2 points. Zerkers 1 point, noise boys 2 points, donno plagies)
PM down to 14 pts.
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mrtomski wrote: What else do people think will see drops? Hell drake seems a prime candidate to me.
There's one floating around that all daemonengines sans the discolord of course get drops of 10-20 pts.
i can't verify this but at 112 pts for a dakka defieler or 110 for a venomcrawler they are honestly starting to look somewhat enticing.
BoomWolf wrote: Cult Marines are not 2W, but they do get a bit cheaper (rubric gun now free, so 2 points. Zerkers 1 point, noise boys 2 points, donno plagies)
BoomWolf wrote: Cult Marines are not 2W, but they do get a bit cheaper (rubric gun now free, so 2 points. Zerkers 1 point, noise boys 2 points, donno plagies)
PM down to 14 pts.
Source for PM points? sM devas seem to be 13p..
over in the chapter approved one.
However also rumour.
Amazing that, instead of improving the stats of units that SHOULD have improved stats, ya know like Raptors and Plague Marines, GW takes the lazy route of "make everything cheaper".
I've seen some of the rumoured numbers now. One has terminators at 23 points.
I really like the models but cant really figure out how to make them work, shooting wise they seem outgunned by oblits and assault there is the issue of a 9 inc charge:-/
Assuming they do get a bit cheaper, any bright ideas on what could be done with them?
mrtomski wrote: I've seen some of the rumoured numbers now. One has terminators at 23 points.
I really like the models but cant really figure out how to make them work, shooting wise they seem outgunned by oblits and assault there is the issue of a 9 inc charge:-/
Assuming they do get a bit cheaper, any bright ideas on what could be done with them?
mrtomski wrote: I've seen some of the rumoured numbers now. One has terminators at 23 points.
I really like the models but cant really figure out how to make them work, shooting wise they seem outgunned by oblits and assault there is the issue of a 9 inc charge:-/
Assuming they do get a bit cheaper, any bright ideas on what could be done with them?
Plasma terminators output a similar range of damage as obliterators, and combi-bolter terminators mow down hordes better than most units we have. They also have a respectable melee ability. The only problem they had (have) is that a 2+ save isn't much in a world of plasma and primaris, so they die much more easily than they should. But I liked them at 29 points each, and now they're 26 points each I have the same unit and 30 spare points to spend so I'm even happier.
I did wonder about red butcher lightning claw termis. S5 rerolling wounds and loads of attacks. Buffing it up and I'm pretty sure that unit destroys everything.
mrtomski wrote: I've seen some of the rumoured numbers now. One has terminators at 23 points.
I really like the models but cant really figure out how to make them work, shooting wise they seem outgunned by oblits and assault there is the issue of a 9 inc charge:-/
Assuming they do get a bit cheaper, any bright ideas on what could be done with them?
EC terms can leverage their dakka with EC, and also employ their melee weapons & mitigate their slow walking pace with a fast charge. Since nobody wants them to fire a second EC, they’ll be pretty high targets for tarpitting - in which case, the EC Legion Trait is marginally helpful. I suspect this will become a modest niche
Obliterators at 95ppm seems pretty solid to me. Also EC have some good options for charging, like the "guaranteed roll of 6" thing so 23 point termies popping in, shooting twice and then charging in and only needing to roll a 3 on one dice might do some good work.
cole1114 wrote: Obliterators at 95ppm seems pretty solid to me. Also EC have some good options for charging, like the "guaranteed roll of 6" thing so 23 point termies popping in, shooting twice and then charging in and only needing to roll a 3 on one dice might do some good work.
Where have you seen 95pt oblits? I've not seen any reported changes for those
mrtomski wrote: I've seen some of the rumoured numbers now. One has terminators at 23 points.
I really like the models but cant really figure out how to make them work, shooting wise they seem outgunned by oblits and assault there is the issue of a 9 inc charge:-/
Assuming they do get a bit cheaper, any bright ideas on what could be done with them?
World Eaters Termies can get +1 to charge if within 6" of warlord if thats worth anything. Might as well make them Red Butchers while you're at it..
cole1114 wrote: Obliterators at 95ppm seems pretty solid to me. Also EC have some good options for charging, like the "guaranteed roll of 6" thing so 23 point termies popping in, shooting twice and then charging in and only needing to roll a 3 on one dice might do some good work.
Where have you seen 95pt oblits? I've not seen any reported changes for those
I stumbled across that, too, on reddit, posted by FearfireTheWin. No idea how reliable this is:
Spoiler:
I have seen the points, friend got his copy to review tonight.
No change to discolords. Plaguebearers up to 8ppm. Poxwalkers down to 5ppm. Also strangely the max size squad of chaos cultists is back to 40 in the death guard and thousand sons sections but still 10-30 in the heretic astartes section. Probably will get faqd.
Warptalons total including wargear now 19ppm. Oblits now 95ppm!!! Most daemon engines down 10-15 points, includes heldrakes, maulerrfiends, venomcrawlers. Chaos thunder hammers on characters cost 40 like loyalists, and power fists down to 7 points! Typhus down 20 points. No change to deredeos or butcher cannons. Also thousands sons daemon prince with wings up to 185 from 170. Ahriman no change.
Not many other chaos changes I remember.
Edit: remembered tzaangors also went up to 8 points each. And blightlord terminators no change. Also DP of nurgle from death guard didn't change in points. So only the CSM one went down, and TS one went up.
Edit2: powerfists did not drop points, still 9. Remembered wrong. Master of possessions is 80pts now (I think was 95?).
But with a 20-point drop, and coupled with the new strats from F&F for protecting them, Oblits will be back to their role of annoying the hell out of my gaming buddies
lindsay40k wrote: 8pt Tzaangor seems a bit steep, that’s more than like a Howling Banshee or Harlequin. Elite ninjas shouldn’t be out-hordeing literal herds
Ha, you know whats funny, the worse cultists from r&h cost still 5 pts .
Just had an apocalypse match with normal rules. I’ve always felt that oblits at 345p was way too much but after this match and if they get the reduced cost just o wow!
Used as Alpha legion and used the “conceal” stratagem so one unit was untargeteble as I had letters coming in and some nurglings here and there. They wiped 3 units of 5man primaris first turn. And then 3 more normal marines next turn. he had too deal with all letters so could not kill a single oblits and then the game was more or less over.
Only with the new stratagem to hide them makes them good but with a points drop, I will add two units in a lot of my lists again.
Edit:
As above wrote. I used this tactic at the start of 8th Ed with CD Tzeentch warlord trait Daemonspark on a DP for reroll 1son hit and wound. It’s a powerful tool with the MoP and have them as Slaanesh as well.
Nurgle AL chaos lord on bike with clandestine, powersword replaced by shadeblade, miasma of pestilence, and benediction of darkness is -5 to hit for ranged weapons at 12"+ And -3 in melee
p5freak wrote: Nurgle AL chaos lord on bike with clandestine, powersword replaced by shadeblade, miasma of pestilence, and benediction of darkness is -5 to hit for ranged weapons at 12"+ And -3 in melee
IT IS INVINCIBLE !!!!!
Except for orks, nobody can outsmart orkz, because orkz rely on bullets to outsmart everything.
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Intercessor wrote: Lord of Skulls is now only 400 points, definitely going to be worth it in a lot of lists now.
That thing is so ugly that it ain't worth it for everyone that respects his collection atleast somewhat.
Hmm. What strats can LoS benefit from? Let’s consider
General:
- Daemonforge: absolute no-brainer, budget at least 3CP for this IMO if you’re not going to have EC and Kharn/Abby accompany it
- Infernal Engines: crap, you don’t want to forego shooting
- Daemonforge Overdrive: crap, there are zero situations where a furiously damaged LoS would rather revert its profile over popping DF to mitigate the lower strength
BL:
- World Killers: ultra niche and situational, but never forget it exists - you’ll win a game by remembering to use this
- Tip of the Spear: by using this, you can pop Daemonforge on another unit, say a Las Defiler, though it’s probably better to get the full rerolls on the LoS’s sheer volume of shots
WB:
- Vengeance for Monarchia: it’s an alt Daemonforge, which is awesome if you’re doing a DE jamboree
NL:
- Vox Scream: if you’re Warptiming the thing into a T1 charge, keep this in mind to disable a backfield support character
- Prey on the Weak: AFAICT, this works with the NL Legion Trait, which will be helpful when you absolutely have to Slash a full sized Intercessor squad to avoid a thunder hammering
- Hit and Run: usually not worth it, as you can shoot when you’re locked in Combat, but you can’t shoot when you fall back. But if there’s a Knight 18 inches away and you’re dancing with a guardsman, it’s absolutely worth walking away to Smash the big guy
- Flay them Alive: I can see this being ok when you’ve Warptimed a T1 charge and picked your shooting targets appropriately, or when you’ve been joined by a Host Raptorial
AL:
- Ambush: absolutely keep this in mind, one of the better units to use it on
- Feigned Retreat: there’s very few situations where this is worth it, you can shoot in melee anyway. If you’re heavily damaged and locked in Combat with a KoS or other firststriking beatstick, it can be wise to get away
- Scrambled Coordinates: worth bearing in mind if your opponent has a plasma or melta DS force
IW:
- Iron Within, Iron Without: one of the best candidates for this strat
- Methodical Annihilation: definitely worth it you’re firing a Skullhurler at a large Intercessor or Terminator squad
- Dour Duty: again, one of the best candidates for this strat. If you are in a situation where Salamanders Aggressors need to be charged and their flamers are benefitting from doctrines, this is probably the best thing that’s not a Warp Talon
- Unholy Vigour: great stuff, just bear in mind your damage tiers
- Tank Hunters: it’s decent, but you’ll probably want to use Daemonforge instead
- Bitter Enmity: it’s an alt Daemonforge, which is awesome if you’re doing a DE jamboree
WE:
- Scorn of Sorcery: you’re already using this all the time
- Kill! Maim! Burn!: worth bearing in mind, especially when you’ve charged a gunline
- Wild Fury: makes Slashing Intercessors much easier
- Blood for the Blood God!: helps overcome the fragility of Berzerkers, worth bearing in mind if a Counter Offensive means a bunch of Power Fist Champions are guaranteed to run away
BB:
- Burning Daemonheart: pretty good, especially if a difficult to hit model is trolling you
Step 1: Use FORWARD OPERATIVES on the bezerkers. (+9")
Step 2: Heldrakes zoom up and hopefully at least one gets a charge off. You then use WE HAVE COME FOR YOU to lock it there. (Advance your bezerkers, 6+d6")
Step 3: Use CONCEAL on your bezerkers, they will be untargetable, so long as the heldrakes are closer. Specifically the one in combat guarantees their safety.
Step 4: Repeat 2 and 3 as needed. Sprinkle in VOX SCREAMand HIT AND RUN to taste.
Alternatively, you could also use RENASCENT INFILTRATION on your bezerkers instead of FORWARD OPERATIVES if it will get them in range faster.
Are terminators playable yet? And now I feel pressure to finish my sonic dreadnought conversion... and dirt cheap havocs and chosen and space marines make me happy that I can put power armor in my list of most flavors and have a fighting chance. That they are playable because they are cheaper crappier marines makes me sad... so out of curiosity what books am I going to need now to effectively play a black legion, word bearers or emperor’s children legion list? Vigilus ablaze, the applicable PA, core rule book, codex, and chapter approved? All 5 of those darn books? Am I missing any?
macluvin wrote: Are terminators playable yet? And now I feel pressure to finish my sonic dreadnought conversion... and dirt cheap havocs and chosen and space marines make me happy that I can put power armor in my list of most flavors and have a fighting chance. That they are playable because they are cheaper crappier marines makes me sad... so out of curiosity what books am I going to need now to effectively play a black legion, word bearers or emperor’s children legion list? Vigilus ablaze, the applicable PA, core rule book, codex, and chapter approved? All 5 of those darn books? Am I missing any?
BL vigilus,also for Legion shenanigans for Recycling marines.
WB and Ec are in pa2.
Termites,ours,will be the cheapest on the Block and handy ones at that.
macluvin wrote: Are terminators playable yet? And now I feel pressure to finish my sonic dreadnought conversion... and dirt cheap havocs and chosen and space marines make me happy that I can put power armor in my list of most flavors and have a fighting chance. That they are playable because they are cheaper crappier marines makes me sad... so out of curiosity what books am I going to need now to effectively play a black legion, word bearers or emperor’s children legion list? Vigilus ablaze, the applicable PA, core rule book, codex, and chapter approved? All 5 of those darn books? Am I missing any?
BL vigilus,also for Legion shenanigans for Recycling marines.
WB and Ec are in pa2.
Termites,ours,will be the cheapest on the Block and handy ones at that.
Will those books contain all the rules in codex csm as well? The stratagems and what not?
macluvin wrote: Are terminators playable yet? And now I feel pressure to finish my sonic dreadnought conversion... and dirt cheap havocs and chosen and space marines make me happy that I can put power armor in my list of most flavors and have a fighting chance. That they are playable because they are cheaper crappier marines makes me sad... so out of curiosity what books am I going to need now to effectively play a black legion, word bearers or emperor’s children legion list? Vigilus ablaze, the applicable PA, core rule book, codex, and chapter approved? All 5 of those darn books? Am I missing any?
BL vigilus,also for Legion shenanigans for Recycling marines.
WB and Ec are in pa2.
Termites,ours,will be the cheapest on the Block and handy ones at that.
Will those books contain all the rules in codex csm as well? The stratagems and what not?
You can keep them "cheap" with combibolter and chainaxe. Use 10 slaanesh termis with a JP sorcerer and prescience, votlw and endless cacophony. Add a JP chaos lord to re-roll 1s to hit. Thats 80 shots hitting on 2s, re-rolling 1s, +1 to wound. Or go with combiplasma and the same two HQs, thats 40 overcharged plasma shots, hitting on 2s, re-rolling 1s, +1 to wound.
You can keep them "cheap" with combibolter and chainaxe. Use 10 slaanesh termis with a JP sorcerer and prescience, votlw and endless cacophony. Add a JP chaos lord to re-roll 1s to hit. Thats 80 shots hitting on 2s, re-rolling 1s, +1 to wound. Or go with combiplasma and the same two HQs, thats 40 overcharged plasma shots, hitting on 2s, re-rolling 1s, +1 to wound.
Emperor's Children Terminators could be scary from deep strike praise the prince stratagem is really strong, though I'm kind of hyped for host Raptorial emperor's children warp talons, they have a guaranteed 9 inch charge out of deep strike which puts them in direct competition with the terminators.
You can keep them "cheap" with combibolter and chainaxe. Use 10 slaanesh termis with a JP sorcerer and prescience, votlw and endless cacophony. Add a JP chaos lord to re-roll 1s to hit. Thats 80 shots hitting on 2s, re-rolling 1s, +1 to wound. Or go with combiplasma and the same two HQs, thats 40 overcharged plasma shots, hitting on 2s, re-rolling 1s, +1 to wound.
Emperor's Children Terminators could be scary from deep strike praise the prince stratagem is really strong, though I'm kind of hyped for host Raptorial emperor's children warp talons, they have a guaranteed 9 inch charge out of deep strike which puts them in direct competition with the terminators.
You can keep them "cheap" with combibolter and chainaxe. Use 10 slaanesh termis with a JP sorcerer and prescience, votlw and endless cacophony. Add a JP chaos lord to re-roll 1s to hit. Thats 80 shots hitting on 2s, re-rolling 1s, +1 to wound. Or go with combiplasma and the same two HQs, thats 40 overcharged plasma shots, hitting on 2s, re-rolling 1s, +1 to wound.
Emperor's Children Terminators could be scary from deep strike praise the prince stratagem is really strong, though I'm kind of hyped for host Raptorial emperor's children warp talons, they have a guaranteed 9 inch charge out of deep strike which puts them in direct competition with the terminators.
The eternal question-why not both?
In this case, the problem would be that you could only do one or the other on turn 2. The other unit would have to wait until turn 3.
This isn't a problem for my Night Lords Warp Talons and Emp.children Terminators though. Turn 2 is going to be a blender.
So cultists now 4ppm with CA but without the ability to VOTLW seem like garbage???? Thoughts? Is abby actually useful in competitive now (ITC/ETC)? Seems like garbage even with the points reductions, not sure the use of a 30 man cultist blob to be honest
orkswubwub wrote: So cultists now 4ppm with CA but without the ability to VOTLW seem like garbage???? Thoughts? Is abby actually useful in competitive now (ITC/ETC)? Seems like garbage even with the points reductions, not sure the use of a 30 man cultist blob to be honest
I would say their use in large blobs is for alpha legion and iron warriors protection stratagems.
So the new iron warrior WL trait which let's deamon engines get extra hits on 6s...
Wondering how strong it is, I'm assuming due to the wording +1 hit doesnt make it go off on a 5 (real shame).
I've got a number of deamon engines and thinking an iron warrior deamon engine gun line could be a thing. You could make them all khrone and ally some deamons for the crimson crown giving hits on wounds of 6s. Supported by cursed earth and a couple of warp smiths to heal could be solid...
mrtomski wrote: So the new iron warrior WL trait which let's deamon engines get extra hits on 6s...
Wondering how strong it is, I'm assuming due to the wording +1 hit doesnt make it go off on a 5 (real shame).
I've got a number of deamon engines and thinking an iron warrior deamon engine gun line could be a thing. You could make them all khrone and ally some deamons for the crimson crown giving hits on wounds of 6s. Supported by cursed earth and a couple of warp smiths to heal could be solid...
Melee or gun?
Assuming that, a MoP, Warpsmith and 1 Discordant and a lord.
You could get reroll 1's, 4++, Heal d3 and 3 aswell as +1 to hit.
That would cost 74+ 60 + 80 + 160.
374 pts for support if you intend to cut the discordant 160 you'd get away with 214 pts.
Assuming that, considering the general pricedrops on Daemonengines, making forgefiends cheaper by 20 (i belive) would make it quite interesting. 2 Hades AC forgefiends generate 5 hits that way. (without the reroll 1.)
A dakka defieler at it's new pricepoint is also something that you could consider. The ammount of additional firepower gained might make it usefull and as a added benefit can defend the castle.
Otoh, the one of the best candidates raw firepower wise, would probably be a decimator with twin butchers , for 130 pts.
Add 240 pts in cultists, and you get 2 battalions.
So you'd have a
Lord
MoP
3x 10 cultists.
Lord discordant
Warpsmith
3x10 Cultists.
For a total of 614 pts in as the skeleton for such a list.
You could then proceed to add Daemonengines to your hearts content.
p5freak wrote: A twin butcher decimator will score 1 additional hit, wow
7 hits. S8 Ap-1 d2 for 130 pts isn't bad.
Especially for the price point, but humor me, what Daemonengine would you pick then instead?
This is not about daemon engines, this is about the IW warlord trait which gives additional hits on an unmodified roll of 6, which is pretty much useless. As for daemon engines, i like venomcrawlers. And i play them with a herald of slaanesh to allow them charging after advancing, or with a herald of tzeentch, to give them flickering flames/boon of change, and S+1.
p5freak wrote: A twin butcher decimator will score 1 additional hit, wow
7 hits. S8 Ap-1 d2 for 130 pts isn't bad.
Especially for the price point, but humor me, what Daemonengine would you pick then instead?
This is not about daemon engines, this is about the IW warlord trait which gives additional hits on an unmodified roll of 6, which is pretty much useless. As for daemon engines, i like venomcrawlers. And i play them with a herald of slaanesh to allow them charging after advancing, or with a herald of tzeentch, to give them flickering flames/boon of change, and S+1.
Until you drop a Lord along 3 Slaanesh Oblits and press the Big Red Button with Endless Cacophony an Rampant Techno-virus. Then you get 6 additional auto-hits with Fleshmetal Guns with rerollable S/AP/D.
Well I have a kytan and a few defilers at the moment (plus all needed hqs). Probably going to turn the kytan into a lord of skulls since kytan is sadly still 410.
Having tried the melee deamon engines with limited success im thinking of trying a moving castle style. Just think about how nice dthfe is, getting that on shooting for the engines will add up over the game. I guess the wording also means the 6s aren't impacted by -1 to hit as well?
Nice the decimators seopped 10 points, my issue with them is 8 wounds is not enough, dakka fiend with 12 for 140 seems safer
Automatically Appended Next Post: Well I have a kytan and a few defilers at the moment (plus all needed hqs). Probably going to turn the kytan into a lord of skulls since kytan is sadly still 410.
Having tried the melee deamon engines with limited success im thinking of trying a moving castle style. Just think about how nice dthfe is, getting that on shooting for the engines will add up over the game. I guess the wording also means the 6s aren't impacted by -1 to hit as well?
Nice the decimators seopped 10 points, my issue with them is 8 wounds is not enough, dakka fiend with 12 for 140 seems safer
p5freak wrote: A twin butcher decimator will score 1 additional hit, wow
7 hits. S8 Ap-1 d2 for 130 pts isn't bad.
Especially for the price point, but humor me, what Daemonengine would you pick then instead?
This is not about daemon engines, this is about the IW warlord trait which gives additional hits on an unmodified roll of 6, which is pretty much useless. As for daemon engines, i like venomcrawlers. And i play them with a herald of slaanesh to allow them charging after advancing, or with a herald of tzeentch, to give them flickering flames/boon of change, and S+1.
Until you drop a Lord along 3 Slaanesh Oblits and press the Big Red Button with Endless Cacophony an Rampant Techno-virus. Then you get 6 additional auto-hits with Fleshmetal Guns with rerollable S/AP/D.
Don't forget they can also potentially have re-roll to wounds and +1 to wound. Also those 6's work in overwatch and CC giving demonsmith even more utility. This trait is a darkhorse candidate for best in the book IMO. Looks kinda of underwhelming at first glance, but becomes better and better when you apply it to many in game situations.
Until you drop a Lord along 3 Slaanesh Oblits and press the Big Red Button with Endless Cacophony an Rampant Techno-virus. Then you get 6 additional auto-hits with Fleshmetal Guns with rerollable S/AP/D.
I doubt between starting a Tau army or chaos marines.
What do you think about those changes? Do you recommend the start collecting boxes/battleforces/chrismas boxes?
Seems like CSM works better now, I would like to play them since they look cool as feth, I like alpha legion.
I'm looking an army with more options than orks (charge like crazy and shoot lootas, that's the only meta) I think chaos give me more resources for facing the battle, melee/speed/heavy/shoots...
Kebabcito wrote: I doubt between starting a Tau army or chaos marines.
What do you think about those changes? Do you recommend the start collecting boxes/battleforces/chrismas boxes?
The start collecting CSM box, is okay value, but beyond the obliterators the contents are iffy a bit. Well until CA drops. They are also daemonkin focussed, which whilest not competitive can still heavily troll the local meta.
Seems like CSM works better now, I would like to play them since they look cool as feth, I like alpha legion.
You can think of ALatm a bit likee a budget GSC army. With more ranged mphh. That said, you can pull alot of shenanigans atm with AL and considering Relics, WL traits (2 ) and the new stratagems
I'm looking an army with more options than orks (charge like crazy and shoot lootas, that's the only meta) I think chaos give me more resources for facing the battle, melee/speed/heavy/shoots...
TBF, competitively speaking, i doubt we see much beyond soup components, so don't expect a mono army to work in competitive for chaos.
Otoh, now with F&F you get some options to play with, which can shake up entrenched local metas.
Until you drop a Lord along 3 Slaanesh Oblits and press the Big Red Button with Endless Cacophony an Rampant Techno-virus. Then you get 6 additional auto-hits with Fleshmetal Guns with rerollable S/AP/D.
Woooow, 6 additional hits for 3 CP
Umm, no. Those 3 CP are spent on rerolling Fleshmetal Guns stats and shooting an additional time. In fact, you only get 3 extra hits from those 3 CP on average because the first round of shooting doesn't cost any CP. The point I'm trying to make is that by simply giving your Warlord this trait you crank up the shooting of an already extremely deadly unit up by another ~20%. And as has been said above me, during overwatch you DOUBLE your output.
You can keep them "cheap" with combibolter and chainaxe. Use 10 slaanesh termis with a JP sorcerer and prescience, votlw and endless cacophony. Add a JP chaos lord to re-roll 1s to hit. Thats 80 shots hitting on 2s, re-rolling 1s, +1 to wound. Or go with combiplasma and the same two HQs, thats 40 overcharged plasma shots, hitting on 2s, re-rolling 1s, +1 to wound.
Emperor's Children Terminators could be scary from deep strike praise the prince stratagem is really strong, though I'm kind of hyped for host Raptorial emperor's children warp talons, they have a guaranteed 9 inch charge out of deep strike which puts them in direct competition with the terminators.
That's actually really good. Add the elixir to give them +1 attack and a lords reroll of 1's... that squad could do some serious damage.
Kebabcito wrote: I doubt between starting a Tau army or chaos marines.
What do you think about those changes? Do you recommend the start collecting boxes/battleforces/chrismas boxes?
Seems like CSM works better now, I would like to play them since they look cool as feth, I like alpha legion.
I'm looking an army with more options than orks (charge like crazy and shoot lootas, that's the only meta) I think chaos give me more resources for facing the battle, melee/speed/heavy/shoots...
If you want an army that can have various playstyles definitely go Chaos. Sure, Tau can also opt into various playstyles but remember that that is only various forms of shooting. If you feel like going shooty one day and choppy the next definitely pick up Chaos.
I'd recommend picking up 2x the new Start Collecting Chaos Space Marines, a Lord Discordant and a Chaos Lord in Terminator armor to begin with, this gives you two Masters of Possession (you can turn one of them into a normal sorcerer), 4 Obliterators (deepstrike bomb, send the Terminator Lord with them. Keep in mind their max squad size is 3 though), 4 Greater Possessed, 20 CSM (turn 5 if them into Havocs, 15 marines is enough for a batallion) and 2 Venomcrawlers that you can send the Lord Discordant along with. Add a Rhino for the Greater Possessed if you feel like it.
For books you obviously want the codex. Also pick up Vigilus Ablaze and Psychic Awakening: Faith and Fury for tasty extra rules.
This gives you a solid basis that you can expand upon with anything you like, from cultists to daemons to cult marines.
What are peoples experiences of new Alpha Legion rules?
I've only had 2 games with them so far but have to say I'm happy with all the options.
Favourite new takeaways are deepstriking RCC havocks. Stick them in rhino behind terrain, t1 jump out and 1cp to stick them in deepstrike or just jump out and shoot if they're in range.
Chaos lord on bike with relic bolter is best sniper in game. More reliable than vindicare. More potent than eliminators.
Deepstrike mele armies are really easily de fanged.
Can only hope cultists and oblits rumours are correct.
small_gods wrote: What are peoples experiences of new Alpha Legion rules?
I've only had 2 games with them so far but have to say I'm happy with all the options.
Favourite new takeaways are deepstriking RCC havocks. Stick them in rhino behind terrain, t1 jump out and 1cp to stick them in deepstrike or just jump out and shoot if they're in range.
Chaos lord on bike with relic bolter is best sniper in game. More reliable than vindicare. More potent than eliminators.
Deepstrike mele armies are really easily de fanged.
Can only hope cultists and oblits rumours are correct.
Have run my ghost army today.
Personal favorite: Wl trait shenanigans moving 3 units + an HQ can seriously mindfeth an enemy. Additionally combiplas sniping is hillarious.
Renascent infiltration is amazing imo. (RCC havocs beeing the obvious choice, but even chosen with Combibolters can seriously bring pain depending on what you have there aswell
Ambush seriously can put the hurt on shock armies.
Jumppacklord with vipersbite is also fun, especially if you want to head hunt. But so long index is allowed the biker one is better.
Things i want to test, is mindveil and faceless commander. Not necessarily on one HQ but in general.
Cultist and Oblits are correct, considering the various review copies out there.
small_gods wrote: What are peoples experiences of new Alpha Legion rules?
I've only had 2 games with them so far but have to say I'm happy with all the options.
Favourite new takeaways are deepstriking RCC havocks. Stick them in rhino behind terrain, t1 jump out and 1cp to stick them in deepstrike or just jump out and shoot if they're in range.
Chaos lord on bike with relic bolter is best sniper in game. More reliable than vindicare. More potent than eliminators.
Deepstrike mele armies are really easily de fanged.
Can only hope cultists and oblits rumours are correct.
Have run my ghost army today.
Personal favorite: Wl trait shenanigans moving 3 units + an HQ can seriously mindfeth an enemy. Additionally combiplas sniping is hillarious.
Renascent infiltration is amazing imo. (RCC havocs beeing the obvious choice, but even chosen with Combibolters can seriously bring pain depending on what you have there aswell
Ambush seriously can put the hurt on shock armies.
Jumppacklord with vipersbite is also fun, especially if you want to head hunt. But so long index is allowed the biker one is better.
Things i want to test, is mindveil and faceless commander. Not necessarily on one HQ but in general.
Cultist and Oblits are correct, considering the various review copies out there.
Great stuff, have tried using hydras wail as well. For 1 cp i burnt 3 of my opponents. Definately worth a consideration for extra relic if your opponent is short on cp.
Kebabcito wrote: I doubt between starting a Tau army or chaos marines.
What do you think about those changes? Do you recommend the start collecting boxes/battleforces/chrismas boxes?
Seems like CSM works better now, I would like to play them since they look cool as feth, I like alpha legion.
I'm looking an army with more options than orks (charge like crazy and shoot lootas, that's the only meta) I think chaos give me more resources for facing the battle, melee/speed/heavy/shoots...
If you want an army that can have various playstyles definitely go Chaos. Sure, Tau can also opt into various playstyles but remember that that is only various forms of shooting. If you feel like going shooty one day and choppy the next definitely pick up Chaos.
I'd recommend picking up 2x the new Start Collecting Chaos Space Marines, a Lord Discordant and a Chaos Lord in Terminator armor to begin with, this gives you two Masters of Possession (you can turn one of them into a normal sorcerer), 4 Obliterators (deepstrike bomb, send the Terminator Lord with them. Keep in mind their max squad size is 3 though), 4 Greater Possessed, 20 CSM (turn 5 if them into Havocs, 15 marines is enough for a batallion) and 2 Venomcrawlers that you can send the Lord Discordant along with. Add a Rhino for the Greater Possessed if you feel like it.
For books you obviously want the codex. Also pick up Vigilus Ablaze and Psychic Awakening: Faith and Fury for tasty extra rules.
This gives you a solid basis that you can expand upon with anything you like, from cultists to daemons to cult marines.
So, with only 2 start collecting boxed and some HQ's, I've got like 1700p, seems like a cheap army.
Thanks for the tips, hoping the CA buffs CSM a bit
Kebabcito wrote: I doubt between starting a Tau army or chaos marines.
What do you think about those changes? Do you recommend the start collecting boxes/battleforces/chrismas boxes?
Seems like CSM works better now, I would like to play them since they look cool as feth, I like alpha legion.
I'm looking an army with more options than orks (charge like crazy and shoot lootas, that's the only meta) I think chaos give me more resources for facing the battle, melee/speed/heavy/shoots...
If you want an army that can have various playstyles definitely go Chaos. Sure, Tau can also opt into various playstyles but remember that that is only various forms of shooting. If you feel like going shooty one day and choppy the next definitely pick up Chaos.
I'd recommend picking up 2x the new Start Collecting Chaos Space Marines, a Lord Discordant and a Chaos Lord in Terminator armor to begin with, this gives you two Masters of Possession (you can turn one of them into a normal sorcerer), 4 Obliterators (deepstrike bomb, send the Terminator Lord with them. Keep in mind their max squad size is 3 though), 4 Greater Possessed, 20 CSM (turn 5 if them into Havocs, 15 marines is enough for a batallion) and 2 Venomcrawlers that you can send the Lord Discordant along with. Add a Rhino for the Greater Possessed if you feel like it.
For books you obviously want the codex. Also pick up Vigilus Ablaze and Psychic Awakening: Faith and Fury for tasty extra rules.
This gives you a solid basis that you can expand upon with anything you like, from cultists to daemons to cult marines.
So, with only 2 start collecting boxed and some HQ's, I've got like 1700p, seems like a cheap army.
Thanks for the tips, hoping the CA buffs CSM a bit
You could get 2 of the new battleforces instead or one additional one. They have Terminators, Havocks and a terminator lord. All competitive stuff.
2 battleforces around 1400 points depending on set up. You could add a jump pack sorcerer, abbadon, dark apostle and another box of chaos spave marines. That'd be a full 2k black legion list with the right loadout.
Eh I wouldn't say the Terminator Lord is that competitive. I'll give a pass to Terminator Sorcerers because they can Deep Strike, Hex someone, and then they take slightly more effort to kill. I guess the included Combi-Bolter can shoot someone four times too which is nice.
I don't mind the Terminator lord for gunlines, he's more resilient to sniping and can pump out combi bolter shots. I suppose it depends on the ammount of vindicare/eliminators/raven guard you're likely to face. My local scene is riddled with them.
Not Online!!! wrote: a pretty meh one at that though. Considering the contents of the bits and assuming wysiwyg
Until GW puts enough copies of all the possible loadouts on the sprues (especially in the case of CSM and Havocs) you can't really really expect someone to adhere to wysiwyg. Until then I'm just going to assume everything is using optimized loadouts regardless of what the miniature is actually holding in it's hands.
Not Online!!! wrote: a pretty meh one at that though. Considering the contents of the bits and assuming wysiwyg
Until GW puts enough copies of all the possible loadouts on the sprues (especially in the case of CSM and Havocs) you can't really really expect someone to adhere to wysiwyg. Until then I'm just going to assume everything is using optimized loadouts regardless of what the miniature is actually holding in it's hands.
Oh i totally agree,but he seems to be competitively minded,meaning that wysiwyg might be important to him.
small_gods wrote: What are peoples experiences of new Alpha Legion rules?
I've only had 2 games with them so far but have to say I'm happy with all the options.
Favourite new takeaways are deepstriking RCC havocks. Stick them in rhino behind terrain, t1 jump out and 1cp to stick them in deepstrike or just jump out and shoot if they're in range.
Chaos lord on bike with relic bolter is best sniper in game. More reliable than vindicare. More potent than eliminators.
Deepstrike mele armies are really easily de fanged.
Can only hope cultists and oblits rumours are correct.
Have run my ghost army today.
Personal favorite: Wl trait shenanigans moving 3 units + an HQ can seriously mindfeth an enemy. Additionally combiplas sniping is hillarious.
Renascent infiltration is amazing imo. (RCC havocs beeing the obvious choice, but even chosen with Combibolters can seriously bring pain depending on what you have there aswell
Ambush seriously can put the hurt on shock armies.
Jumppacklord with vipersbite is also fun, especially if you want to head hunt. But so long index is allowed the biker one is better.
Things i want to test, is mindveil and faceless commander. Not necessarily on one HQ but in general.
Cultist and Oblits are correct, considering the various review copies out there.
Great stuff, have tried using hydras wail as well. For 1 cp i burnt 3 of my opponents. Definately worth a consideration for extra relic if your opponent is short on cp.
I think hydras wail will be important enough to be considered in many lists.
Not Online!!! wrote: a pretty meh one at that though. Considering the contents of the bits and assuming wysiwyg
Until GW puts enough copies of all the possible loadouts on the sprues (especially in the case of CSM and Havocs) you can't really really expect someone to adhere to wysiwyg. Until then I'm just going to assume everything is using optimized loadouts regardless of what the miniature is actually holding in it's hands.
Oh i totally agree,but he seems to be competitively minded,meaning that wysiwyg might be important to him.
I just go 3rd party for the bitz I need. GW couldn't provide all possible options without charging us a fortune. If they had to give us 16 weapons for havocs and 12 plus combi weapons for champion, I dread to think what they'd charge for that box!!
NL Bezerkers might be a good addition. Almost all their stratagems are things beserkers want. (Fall back and charge, combat lock, bonus to hit, -1 to be shot at, +2 to charge out of cover)
The trick really just becomes getting them to the enemy in the first place... (fire raptors, or termites even...). Actuallynwith a termite drill, if you come up in cover, use the strat, and have an icon of wrath that's a 7" charge rerolling. Not too bad.
Anyone else feeling triple Night Lord Heldrakes? Massive points drops in CA that they're actually looking very dangerous.
More importantly, although they can't trigger We Have Come For You they CAN use Vox Scream... which also happens to work on rules like Saviour Protocols. Want to use your 10 shield drones to protect your Riptide from my Leviathan's butcher cannons? Nope.
It certainly buffs drakes up with new value... If you were running triple drakes, they'll probably be nightlords now...
I'm more interested in warptalon outriders myself. Prey on the weak, hit and run, raptor strike; all the NL strats seem hand-picked to buff Warp Talons, and they just received a whopping 25pt haircut on a 5-man squad.
Dropping in two talons with a tip of the spear lord will make your charges very reliable: one can hopefully drop into cover and make a 5+ charge, another uses raptor strike and needs 7+ on 3d6, and the third unit needs a 7+, and you should have a CP reroll left considering the ease of the first two charge rolls.
Next turn you still have a squad of talons in reserve, and can use raptor strike or from the night again for another almost-guaranteed charge with no overwatch.
I hate the models but this lil chappy might make for some awesome conversions:
Spoiler:
I find that worse then the Helldrake imo.
I'd rather have also seen Helltalons/ blades in plastic instead aswell.
On that note, did they finally drop the prices there?
Agreed much better models. Not sure about points but I doubt it. They are fw after all and ca barely touched fw.
Plus I've decided gw has an "ugly model discount ". How else do you explain astreus and lord of skulls getting a drop and hellforged units remaining hideously expensive.
Seriously with the new drops baneblades are less than half base cost of a fellblade. I think same goes for los.
I hate the models but this lil chappy might make for some awesome conversions:
Spoiler:
I find that worse then the Helldrake imo.
I'd rather have also seen Helltalons/ blades in plastic instead aswell.
On that note, did they finally drop the prices there?
Agreed much better models. Not sure about points but I doubt it. They are fw after all and ca barely touched fw.
Plus I've decided gw has an "ugly model discount ". How else do you explain astreus and lord of skulls getting a drop and hellforged units remaining hideously expensive.
Seriously with the new drops baneblades are less than half base cost of a fellblade. I think same goes for los.
Play a R&H High command then, get a baneblade and 75 pts in cheap fodder HQ
I hate the models but this lil chappy might make for some awesome conversions:
Spoiler:
I find that worse then the Helldrake imo.
I'd rather have also seen Helltalons/ blades in plastic instead aswell.
On that note, did they finally drop the prices there?
Agreed much better models. Not sure about points but I doubt it. They are fw after all and ca barely touched fw.
Plus I've decided gw has an "ugly model discount ". How else do you explain astreus and lord of skulls getting a drop and hellforged units remaining hideously expensive.
Seriously with the new drops baneblades are less than half base cost of a fellblade. I think same goes for los.
Play a R&H High command then, get a baneblade and 75 pts in cheap fodder HQ
Or better use your Fellblade as baneblade.
You're assuming the baneblade dropped for r&h. Which unfortunately, is doubtful. See cultists.
The Baneblade dropped, because it literally uses the AM baneblade.
Cultists are special because they are R&H spceific cultists. they don't share a datasheet with CSM cultists. (they are also worse profile wise. because reasons)
NL Bezerkers might be a good addition. Almost all their stratagems are things beserkers want. (Fall back and charge, combat lock, bonus to hit, -1 to be shot at, +2 to charge out of cover)
The trick really just becomes getting them to the enemy in the first place... (fire raptors, or termites even...). Actuallynwith a termite drill, if you come up in cover, use the strat, and have an icon of wrath that's a 7" charge rerolling. Not too bad.
If I understand correctly how it's supposed to work, the +2 charge out of cover will only be half effective for footsloggers. After all, you're subtracting 2 from the charge for having to cross cover, right? Unless, of course, you've got jump packs. Then it translates as an actual bonus to your charge distance.
Spoletta wrote: Only craters and forests give -2 to charge rolls. Ruins, barricades, sector mechanicus and everything else is fine.
Well, bugger me rotten! We've been playing it wrong all the time, then. That means that NL zerkers might even be content with a Rhino. If you can disembark them into ruins, there's your +2" right there. And zerkers still have nice small bases, meaning they could conceivably reach enemies on higher levels of said ruin. And you don't need to worry about the 9" deep strike restriction, either.
The Baneblade dropped, because it literally uses the AM baneblade.
Cultists are special because they are R&H spceific cultists. they don't share a datasheet with CSM cultists. (they are also worse profile wise. because reasons)
Could work then.
Other than strategems, psychic powers, and prayers wouldn't work on it.
Also no quad lasscannons, accelerator cannon, t9, or 2+ save.
grouchoben wrote: It certainly buffs drakes up with new value... If you were running triple drakes, they'll probably be nightlords now...
I'm more interested in warptalon outriders myself. Prey on the weak, hit and run, raptor strike; all the NL strats seem hand-picked to buff Warp Talons, and they just received a whopping 25pt haircut on a 5-man squad.
Dropping in two talons with a tip of the spear lord will make your charges very reliable: one can hopefully drop into cover and make a 5+ charge, another uses raptor strike and needs 7+ on 3d6, and the third unit needs a 7+, and you should have a CP reroll left considering the ease of the first two charge rolls.
Next turn you still have a squad of talons in reserve, and can use raptor strike or from the night again for another almost-guaranteed charge with no overwatch.
The detachment comes in at 390pts now.
I think this approach will work well with Night Lords too. They are still super fragile but as you say they'll be able to get into combat and have enough shenanigans that they can clog the board and avoid some shots. Triple Heldrakes has less moving pieces and is a bit more 'plug and play' but doesn't quite offer the same thing. On the plus side it adds a serious amount of T1 threat to be dealt with.
I know there is a lot of negativity online about CSM (especially reddit, dear God) but I'm honestly pretty pumped. We have so many new things to test out and play with right now.
The Baneblade dropped, because it literally uses the AM baneblade.
Cultists are special because they are R&H spceific cultists. they don't share a datasheet with CSM cultists. (they are also worse profile wise. because reasons)
Could work then.
Other than strategems, psychic powers, and prayers wouldn't work on it.
Also no quad lasscannons, accelerator cannon, t9, or 2+ save.
Other than that.
or bs3, which with prescience...
I know its expensive but post i, made a few pages back with the new IW strats the FB could be semi viable. Esp since cultists dropped you can screen it like a mofo
The Baneblade dropped, because it literally uses the AM baneblade.
Cultists are special because they are R&H spceific cultists. they don't share a datasheet with CSM cultists. (they are also worse profile wise. because reasons)
Could work then.
Other than strategems, psychic powers, and prayers wouldn't work on it.
Also no quad lasscannons, accelerator cannon, t9, or 2+ save.
Other than that.
or bs3, which with prescience...
I know its expensive but post i, made a few pages back with the new IW strats the FB could be semi viable. Esp since cultists dropped you can screen it like a mofo
The issue isn't whether it's viable it's that it and the other hellforged low have been arbitrarily overcosted. A fellblade shouldn't cost two baneblades.
And if you think a iw fellblade is viable wait till you see an ih astreus with 100 extra points to work with.
Starts with 13 CP and immediately spends 3 on relics, 2 on Devastation Battery and the lieutenant, so 8cp to spend on VotLW, the obliterator d3 rerolls, the damage dice rerolls, and whatever else needs to happen.
I like the list except 310pts spent on dreads, that seems a bit indulgent! And a single disco lord with no help is alost pointless, unless I'm missing some new Iron Warriors shtick? It'll be cratered on T1. A rhino wouldn't go amiss too, to protect some of your precious havocs from indirect fire spam T1 ...
grouchoben wrote: I like the list except 310pts spent on dreads, that seems a bit indulgent! And a single disco lord with no help is alost pointless, unless I'm missing some new Iron Warriors shtick? It'll be cratered on T1. A rhino wouldn't go amiss too, to protect some of your precious havocs from indirect fire spam T1 ...
Imo the Hellbrutes aren't "that bad", they just sadly are not tough enough to remain on the bard. Also a melee dread is just a bit off a waste imo.
Another thing is, why not bring a sorcerer?
As for the Lord discordants yep they are very much a Pack animal, sadly, thanks to GW failing at design. (if only a warpsmith could have had their Aura, maybee we wouldn't need another point cut for dakka Daemonengines....)
Unit of 3 IW obilts with:
MoP re-roll 1's to hit and wound
WL trait to do extra hits on a 6
and re-roll S/AP/DMG (only re-rolling a 1) strat on
will do on average 17 wounds to a knight with a 5++
or 13 to a knight with 4++
I think! i did it with a computy program running it 200,000 times, although this is a flat average the results vary wildly! lowest being 0 and higest being about 63
Unit of 3 IW obilts with:
MoP re-roll 1's to hit and wound
WL trait to do extra hits on a 6
and re-roll S/AP/DMG (only re-rolling a 1) strat on
will do on average 17 wounds to a knight with a 5++
or 13 to a knight with 4++
I think! i did it with a computy program running it 200,000 times, although this is a flat average the results vary wildly! lowest being 0 and higest being about 63
That's interesting although it'd be good to see what they do with all the strats activated, tecno virus exploding 6s, tank hunter, reroll ones from lord, veterans of the long war and endless Cacophony.
I make it an adverage 38 wounds vs a 4++ knight but I'm sure running the numbers would help. That's 5cp and a warlord in support though but a relatively cheap 344 points to kill 1 to 2 knights.
well re-roll 1's you dont need as included is the MoP running the power that does that.
vs vanilla knight
All the above with VOTLW = 22
VOTLW + TH + all the above = 33 (loose the re-roll 1 but gain re-roll all)
So to be fair you'd get the same result with a flat lord (re-roll 1 to hit) and with exploding 6's WL, Tank Hunter, VOTLW and re-rolling the dice for flesh metal
Not bad for a 285pt unit a cheap lord and 3cp. Its only an average though... can vary wildly.
Should be able to DS in and reliably hope to give a knight a serious pummeling.
Unit of 3 IW obilts with:
MoP re-roll 1's to hit and wound
WL trait to do extra hits on a 6
and re-roll S/AP/DMG (only re-rolling a 1) strat on
will do on average 17 wounds to a knight with a 5++
or 13 to a knight with 4++
I think! i did it with a computy program running it 200,000 times, although this is a flat average the results vary wildly! lowest being 0 and higest being about 63
That's why for my math crunching I removed the overkill to check actual average damage with overkill factored away. Did you do that as well? If not that 17 is too high.
Latro_ wrote: well re-roll 1's you dont need as included is the MoP running the power that does that.
vs vanilla knight
All the above with VOTLW = 22
VOTLW + TH + all the above = 33 (loose the re-roll 1 but gain re-roll all)
So to be fair you'd get the same result with a flat lord (re-roll 1 to hit) and with exploding 6's WL, Tank Hunter, VOTLW and re-rolling the dice for flesh metal
Not bad for a 285pt unit a cheap lord and 3cp. Its only an average though... can vary wildly.
Should be able to DS in and reliably hope to give a knight a serious pummeling.
Yeah they do look potent. I can't decide whether I need to run a second unit of oblits as IW or not. I currently use AL devestation battery which is plenty potent but the IW stuff just adds to that.
Rampant Techno Virus also helps wildly. Instead of an adverage str 8 ap 2 dmg 2 with standard deviation of 0.82, you get 8.3 str, 2.3 ap and 2.3 dmg with a standard deviation of 0.47.
stupid.
