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Niiru wrote:

 small_gods wrote:
I've been looking at the WE red butchers Terminators.

I have 10 of lightning claw Terminators that could be really good with 8 attacks each reroll str 5 -2ap attacks.

Only thing is how do you get them in combat? I've thought of using the +1 charge WL trait and icon of wrath but still feels hit and miss.

This is exactly why I was interesting in emperors children.

For the same points, you only get 5 attacks each instead of 8, but you get a guaranteed (well, nearly) charge. Spend an extra CP and you get exploding attacks as well. Might end up a little more expensive in CP, but in my opinion its worth it. The Red Butchers might be stronger and cheaper (in CP), but if they fail the charge they're just a very pointy paperweight.

I suppose if you run a min bat of red cosairs, if I make huron my warlord I could have 4 relics to spread around!


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Also I have warp talons and EC warptalons look nuts. Maybe warptalons t2, Terminators t3?

Niiru wrote:

 blood reaper wrote:

Niiru wrote:
Alpha Legion - Renascent Infiltration - What unit would be good for this? AL has no charge improvements, so it seems best used on something with short-range but powerful shooting, that would normally require expensive transportation to get to where it should be. Chaincannon havocs might work, but you'd only be able to do it with a single unit of 5. A big 10-man squad of Plasma-Chosen might be a nasty surprise, basically the same as the plasma-terminator suicide drop, but cheaper. Berserkers might work with a banner, but it would be a risk as they can fail the charge.

I thought the max number of combi-Plasmas you could have in a squad were 5? Would the rest of the chosen just be taken without additional equipment?

I'd have to double check my codex, I thought the remaining chosen could still get combi-bolters for some reason but maybe not. Still probably worth it for the ablative wounds and extra attacks if they get into a fight.

I'm leaning more towards emperors children being a stronger contender for the glass-cannon army at the moment though.

Including the sarge, you could take 6 plasmas, one guy would need to be a regular plas and sarge would have to be combo plas but 4 could be either. They can all take a free chainsword so a unit of ten would put out 41 attacks on the charge, and the 4 regular guys get to keep their boltgun as well to shoot with on the drop.

Ideally, you're looking at 10 chosen rocking 6 plasmas/4 boltgun, and 10 chainswords, for 206 pts. Depending on what you want them to do, slaneesh would let them pop off 24 plasma shots in rapid fire range. Ideally they're combiplas except for the one guy who has to be plasma, then you can fire both profiles in an emergency against a target like orks. Khorne would let them charge in and unexpectedly murder something with 82 attacks. Seems a waste not to stick something on the sarge, perhaps a powerfist would be a good middle ground, or a thunder hammer. Not really sure yet.

Seems like a hidden gem for Alpha legion. They're a glass hammer but that unit being infiltrated in with new strat to essentially deepstrike/outflank into backfield would be very powerful. You can use conceal to protect them, or drop them in with other units like a tide of traitors cultist unit, deepstriking terminators, or other units that can quickly get up the table. They're not very hard to kill by themselves but used in conjunction with all the other sneaky tricks most opponents might be hard pressed to kill them with everything else going on.

Played my Word Bearers against a friend’s World Eaters yesterday

Took photos and might blog it, but a few takeaways:

- you really need them CP, don’t scrimp on the troops

- Malefic Tome is interesting, I got a couple of super smites off and the flexibility of an extra spell is ok on a MoP, I did use all four over the course of the game

- an extra Wound and D3 extra healing on a Disco Lord isn’t enough. Maybe a Crown of the Blasphemer plus Cursed Earth?

- A Red Butcher Terminator Lord can just run at a Maulerfiend and be like, ‘so long, a-Bowser’


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Maybe Diabolist (6+++, +3 against MW) is workable on LD? I dunno, I can’t help but feel like the Possessed ones are the best WB WLTs

 lindsay40k wrote:
Played my Word Bearers against a friend’s World Eaters yesterday

Took photos and might blog it, but a few takeaways:

- you really need them CP, don’t scrimp on the troops

- Malefic Tome is interesting, I got a couple of super smites off and the flexibility of an extra spell is ok on a MoP, I did use all four over the course of the game

- an extra Wound and D3 extra healing on a Disco Lord isn’t enough. Maybe a Crown of the Blasphemer plus Cursed Earth?

- A Red Butcher Terminator Lord can just run at a Maulerfiend and be like, ‘so long, a-Bowser’


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Maybe Diabolist (6+++, +3 against MW) is workable on LD? I dunno, I can’t help but feel like the Possessed ones are the best WB WLTs

Mind sharing the list you used?

It was a Spearhead:
- Disco Lord: Baleflamer, regen WT
- MoP: Malefic Tome, Cursed Earth, Infernal Power, Mutated invigoration, Smite
- Maulerfiend: Lashers
- Venomcrawler
- Obliterator
- 15 Possessed

Not what I’d intended to field - my list had a Slaaneshi Daemons detachment and I forgot to pack it. So, this cannibalised half my list with my sideboard. Since I was facing World Eaters, losing my T1 charges and bringing in something with a gun was not an issue at all

I lost 10-11, largely because I had a bunch of Tactical Objectives for my MoP to kill stuff, and he spent six turns kicking a Rhino’s tires only for it to pass every save and only ever take 1MW from Smites

Eventually, the Rhino fell, but by then a Red Butcher Chaos Lord was on top of him, and even though it had only one wound left, I didn’t survive the eleven PF attacks to have a go at slapping it to death

Hexagramic autosave was hilarious. The look on your opponent’s face when you just burn a CP and say, yeah, this dice is a 6 now

Overall, pretty happy with the new WB stuff. Regardless of my list, I always take a DA and/or wizard, and I do like Possessed, so I reckon I’m personally going to feel the benefit of the rebalancing relics and strats, even if our Legion Traits are disappointing. Looking forwards to fielding them in a better planned game, hopefully before every Codex gains supplementary access to autosave and autospell and deny falling back and a mountain of D2 attacks


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Do we reckon that Daemon Princes (and other Daemon HQ) will retain access to Exalted Possession, and that winged DPs & JP Chaos Lords will retain +1M from it? I can see a possessing Daemon getting the big promotion, but I’m veering towards no on the latter - Warp Talons don’t gain any speed, and EP is pretty clearly an alternate avenue for using a Gal Vorbak, which means more weight to carry. It’ll still be handy if they don’t - access to Khorne & Nurgle & Slaanesh Daemon auras is tidy.

I guess Warp Talons and CoD won’t gain the Possessed keyword… it’s not an exact fit for their fluff?

Thanks for sharing. Great to hear some success with WBs out in the wild.

Re: DP w/ Exalted Possession: given that the rule's wording says they gain access to the daemon & possessed keywords if they don't already have them, I think we can safely say that DPs will keep their access. Don't see why they wouldn't allow DPs/JP lords to keep the +1M.

My concern is that RAI, EP represents the warrior gaining the supernatural metabolism & athleticism of the Possessed. Having better legs & heart doesn’t affect the thrust of your jetpack.

I’ve just noticed something: EC can have an overwhelmingly high chance of a Kharybdis making a charge on arrival. Throw in some means of preventing fall back... this could be big

The HQ is possessed, the daemon could turn the jump pack into a pez dispenser if it wanted to. I don't believe it's fully explained how far the daemon's ability to warp the armour of the marine it's possessing goes, but Ithink it's safe to assume it could affect the jump pack as well.

 lindsay40k wrote:
My concern is that RAI, EP represents the warrior gaining the supernatural metabolism & athleticism of the Possessed. Having better legs & heart doesn’t affect the thrust of your jetpack.

I’ve just noticed something: EC can have an overwhelmingly high chance of a Kharybdis making a charge on arrival. Throw in some means of preventing fall back... this could be big

You get a better running start to use the Jump Pack with, duh.

Can't exactly justify the Bikes but oh well.

This is the list I'm considering at the moment. Nurglings and Cultists for screens. Noise Marines and Terminators for killing enemy screens. Terminators are a target for a guaranteed charge, and possibly even +1 attacks for 4 attacks each on the charge. Noise Marines might (if needed) get the +1S +1D strat if they need to burn down something big/elite.

One LordDisco has -2 to be hit, the other is just standard (though I may switch the HQ's around a little, and give the second Disco the Raiment Revulsive (as I currently have 1 or 2 relics I haven't assigned).

Everything else (Skullreaver, Syll, Contemptor, Discos) are there to answer the eternal question - Will it blend?

Probably not a very strong list, but looks fun to build and play with (to me anyway ahah)

 lindsay40k wrote:
My concern is that RAI, EP represents the warrior gaining the supernatural metabolism & athleticism of the Possessed. Having better legs & heart doesn’t affect the thrust of your jetpack.

Innumerable supernatural explanations could be offered. I wouldn't worry.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 lindsay40k wrote:
My concern is that RAI, EP represents the warrior gaining the supernatural metabolism & athleticism of the Possessed. Having better legs & heart doesn’t affect the thrust of your jetpack.

I’ve just noticed something: EC can have an overwhelmingly high chance of a Kharybdis making a charge on arrival. Throw in some means of preventing fall back... this could be big

You get a better running start to use the Jump Pack with, duh.

Can't exactly justify the Bikes but oh well.

poor mans doomrider

How are people feeling about Khorne Berserkers these days?
And if you do use them, what's your strategy?

There are three main things to think about when using berserkers.

1. Getting there: Two "best" methods are drills or dreadclaws. Rhinos can be used, but I prefer to use those as a mobile LOS blocker , with 3-4 moving in a wedge.

2. Equipment: I've always preferred axe + pistol as world eaters. Plasma can be nice to kill a model you tri-pointed in your opponent's phase so you can charge away. Champion is either budget chainaxe, lightning claws or powerfist. Axe for well.. budget. Claws for more reliable wounds without needed a exalted champion. Fist because, well... 8 s10 ap-3 attacks on the charge is juicy as heck. If I have points left over I'll upgrade chainaxe to power axe.

3. To VotLW or not: Well, basically the last thing. This and soultearer can let two squads take down a vehicle each fairly reliably. Just make sure you have the CP to support it. Fury of Khorne should only be for fist champs or HQs.

My strategy as world eaters is to put 64 of them down, run them forward, and axe as many questions as I can. Not rocket surgery. . 2k game you can do 2 mirror battalions. Apostle, Champion, 4x zerker squads (axes with 5 bolt 3 plasma pistols) Finish out with a pair of heldrakes and you're good to go. Keep your 5++ prayer going and run them down, and hope that your 3+ 5++ and buckets of dice can take care of whatever you catch.

Once I get the new rules from F&F I'll be sure to use all the new strats to give a better answer. Assuming the leaks are correct the +1" charge trait will be an autotake for WE.

Thanks for the reply.
Do you have a reason that you take pistol/axe on the KB as opposed to Axe/Chainsword?

WE Disco Lord can take both a half damage WT and also an eat dead models relic

That’s some interesting robustness, especially if you’ve got a non-Khorne detachment to Warptime it, and some means to prevent fall backs

Bit vulnerable to Mortal Wounds

I do axe/pistol so I have some shooting at all. Plus, as I said, killing off the last few models in a unit left in a unit so you can charge something else. Lastly 3 overcharged plasma pistols can do a decent dent in heavier targets.

Oh. Something I forgot. Don't forget your grenades! Throw that krak!!!

StarHunter25 wrote:
I do axe/pistol so I have some shooting at all. Plus, as I said, killing off the last few models in a unit left in a unit so you can charge something else. Lastly 3 overcharged plasma pistols can do a decent dent in heavier targets.

Oh. Something I forgot. Don't forget your grenades! Throw that krak!!!

Nice fair enough.

I've also been considering using the new strat for some Red Butcher Terminators.
But then the question comes of what to arm them with.
I'm leaning towards lightning claw/combi bolter. But the claw is very pricey so maybe the chainaxes might be better.
Thinking more I feel S5 AP -2 rerolling to wound is much better than S6 AP-1, but you do pay for it.

A few powerfists might come in handy too, considering 8 S10 attacks per Terminator is hard to argue with.

Hi Guys

I currently have a really hard time to come up with a good Chaos Space Marines list for 1250 Points. I plan to attend an event with rather strict restrictions like:

1250 Points, Only one Faction and Detachment. No Lord of Wars or Titanic Units and you can only take one of each unit, unless it is in the standard slot.

I really started to hate cultists as they seem to just be a waste of points and the normal space Marines are just super bad compared with interecessors.

Furthermore I find it really hard to think about good ways to counter space marines, since they will be everywhere and you propably need one unit that can kill an leviathan dreadnought. I also already plan with the rules of Faith and Fury so I looked towards the Iron Warriors, as I liked the legion trait because of stealthy beeing a popular choice. Furthermore I think that the Buffed to hell Obliterators can blow up even an Iron Hands buffed Leviathan Dreadnought in one round of shooting. But I really have no Idea what else I can put in the list.

Have you made good results with other units in such a limited environment? I thought about a Chaos Decimator with Soulburner Petards for the mortal Wounds, or a Contemptor Dreadnought with Chainclaws if I might run into Centurions or anything else with a high wound count, since they do 4 dmg flat in close combat.

Fauk wrote:
Hi Guys

I currently have a really hard time to come up with a good Chaos Space Marines list for 1250 Points. I plan to attend an event with rather strict restrictions like:

1250 Points, Only one Faction and Detachment. No Lord of Wars or Titanic Units and you can only take one of each unit, unless it is in the standard slot.

I really started to hate cultists as they seem to just be a waste of points and the normal space Marines are just super bad compared with interecessors.

Furthermore I find it really hard to think about good ways to counter space marines, since they will be everywhere and you propably need one unit that can kill an leviathan dreadnought. I also already plan with the rules of Faith and Fury so I looked towards the Iron Warriors, as I liked the legion trait because of stealthy beeing a popular choice. Furthermore I think that the Buffed to hell Obliterators can blow up even an Iron Hands buffed Leviathan Dreadnought in one round of shooting. But I really have no Idea what else I can put in the list.

Have you made good results with other units in such a limited environment? I thought about a Chaos Decimator with Soulburner Petards for the mortal Wounds, or a Contemptor Dreadnought with Chainclaws if I might run into Centurions or anything else with a high wound count, since they do 4 dmg flat in close combat.

Don't use the soulburner petards, they are a trap. They are super expensive for a few mortal wounds and are hopeless vs hordes (we have a lot of plaguebearers, guardsmen and sheild drones in our lical scene).

I use AL oblits all the time with the devestation battery wl trait and relic (which Iron Warrior get for free and then some). They are very potent.

I think if you bring havocs with reaper chaincannons you'll do well against marines and anything the oblits struggle to get through. If you play with plenty of LOS blocking terrain you can get away with just a rhino. I have the drill as well but tend to use a rhino out of LOS.

Cultists are fine as objective campers and havocks, bikes and chosen are just a better than csm squads for very few points more. I'd just run oblits, cultists, rcc havocks, some bikes for mobility and then daemon prince/lord/sorcerer to round out hqs.

Here's a question for people - What do you think the best / strongest striking use for Renascent Infiltration would be?

I'm thinking berserkers might be interesting to throw at someone. Havocs would be good if you could take more than 5 of them.

Another option is Chosen. 6 Plasmas isn't a terrible strike force. Could even go with 10 thunder hammers, but unfortunately AL don't have any charge-range stratagems like Emp.Children got.

Niiru wrote:
Here's a question for people - What do you think the best / strongest striking use for Renascent Infiltration would be?

I'm thinking berserkers might be interesting to throw at someone. Havocs would be good if you could take more than 5 of them.

Another option is Chosen. 6 Plasmas isn't a terrible strike force. Could even go with 10 thunder hammers, but unfortunately AL don't have any charge-range stratagems like Emp.Children got.

Renascent is infantry only right?

Honestly beyond the ones you mentioned maybee a big cultists blob.

Other then that an utility tool, to either save or reposition a unit.

Not Online!!! wrote:

Niiru wrote:
Here's a question for people - What do you think the best / strongest striking use for Renascent Infiltration would be?

I'm thinking berserkers might be interesting to throw at someone. Havocs would be good if you could take more than 5 of them.

Another option is Chosen. 6 Plasmas isn't a terrible strike force. Could even go with 10 thunder hammers, but unfortunately AL don't have any charge-range stratagems like Emp.Children got.

Renascent is infantry only right?

Honestly beyond the ones you mentioned maybee a big cultists blob.

Other then that an utility tool, to either save or reposition a unit.

Yeh infantry only.

I'm not sure if Berserkers or Hammer-Chosen would work though, as you only get their icon of wrath charge reroll to try and get them into the fight. Vaguely recall the chances of that succeeding is only about 50%.

Niiru wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

Niiru wrote:
Here's a question for people - What do you think the best / strongest striking use for Renascent Infiltration would be?

I'm thinking berserkers might be interesting to throw at someone. Havocs would be good if you could take more than 5 of them.

Another option is Chosen. 6 Plasmas isn't a terrible strike force. Could even go with 10 thunder hammers, but unfortunately AL don't have any charge-range stratagems like Emp.Children got.

Renascent is infantry only right?

Honestly beyond the ones you mentioned maybee a big cultists blob.

Other then that an utility tool, to either save or reposition a unit.

Yeh infantry only.

I'm not sure if Berserkers or Hammer-Chosen would work though, as you only get their icon of wrath charge reroll to try and get them into the fight. Vaguely recall the chances of that succeeding is only about 50%.

Yep, with command reroll about 67% i believe.
Honestly beyond chosen, either noise marines, plague marines or havocs or cultists.
Melee troops would not really work with that.

Infiltrate + Faceless Commander WT would also synergize well to reposition HQ units that can't normally deepstrike.

 small_gods wrote:

Fauk wrote:
Hi Guys

I currently have a really hard time to come up with a good Chaos Space Marines list for 1250 Points. I plan to attend an event with rather strict restrictions like:

1250 Points, Only one Faction and Detachment. No Lord of Wars or Titanic Units and you can only take one of each unit, unless it is in the standard slot.

I really started to hate cultists as they seem to just be a waste of points and the normal space Marines are just super bad compared with interecessors.

Furthermore I find it really hard to think about good ways to counter space marines, since they will be everywhere and you propably need one unit that can kill an leviathan dreadnought. I also already plan with the rules of Faith and Fury so I looked towards the Iron Warriors, as I liked the legion trait because of stealthy beeing a popular choice. Furthermore I think that the Buffed to hell Obliterators can blow up even an Iron Hands buffed Leviathan Dreadnought in one round of shooting. But I really have no Idea what else I can put in the list.

Have you made good results with other units in such a limited environment? I thought about a Chaos Decimator with Soulburner Petards for the mortal Wounds, or a Contemptor Dreadnought with Chainclaws if I might run into Centurions or anything else with a high wound count, since they do 4 dmg flat in close combat.

Don't use the soulburner petards, they are a trap. They are super expensive for a few mortal wounds and are hopeless vs hordes (we have a lot of plaguebearers, guardsmen and sheild drones in our lical scene).

I use AL oblits all the time with the devestation battery wl trait and relic (which Iron Warrior get for free and then some). They are very potent.

I think if you bring havocs with reaper chaincannons you'll do well against marines and anything the oblits struggle to get through. If you play with plenty of LOS blocking terrain you can get away with just a rhino. I have the drill as well but tend to use a rhino out of LOS.

Cultists are fine as objective campers and havocks, bikes and chosen are just a better than csm squads for very few points more. I'd just run oblits, cultists, rcc havocks, some bikes for mobility and then daemon prince/lord/sorcerer to round out hqs.

Yeah, agreed on this, if it’s single detachment and you’re going IW, devbat all the way. I love the Decimator’s bucket but, yeah, it’s not good atm.

Cultists are absolutely a good call on this front to keep the Oblits alive. Is there an argument for fearless WT & DA on the Cultists?

If you want something that can dish out a melee beating, DP’s probably the best bet? HA makes Axe of the Forgefather look like a pretty solid dreadkiller

Yoyoyo wrote:
Infiltrate + Faceless Commander WT would also synergize well to reposition HQ units that can't normally deepstrike.

I had considered this too, giving some extra bonus' to a terminator squad. But I don't think there's any HQ units that are actually worth moving like that. Dark Apostle is... mostly useless, due to not being able to throw out any buffs (the DA rules really are terrible). Warpsmith needs to be near vehicles really anyway. Exalted Champ only works in the fight phase, and charging from deep strike isn't great as we've discussed.

All the useful HQ's (Lords, Sorcerers, Abaddon) already have deepstrike built in (for a handful of extra points, but always worth it I think?)

Sure it's still an interesting and potentially useful tool to have in your pocket to reposition something like a Lord Discordant at some point if it gets trapped. It's a shame the Dark Apostle rules are so janky, would have been nice to throw him up with some terminators.

The only HQ it might work for actually is the Master of Possession, if you deepstrike him with some Warp Talons. Not sure that'd be worth it though.

Niiru wrote:

Yoyoyo wrote:
Infiltrate + Faceless Commander WT would also synergize well to reposition HQ units that can't normally deepstrike.

I had considered this too, giving some extra bonus' to a terminator squad. But I don't think there's any HQ units that are actually worth moving like that. Dark Apostle is... mostly useless, due to not being able to throw out any buffs (the DA rules really are terrible). Warpsmith needs to be near vehicles really anyway. Exalted Champ only works in the fight phase, and charging from deep strike isn't great as we've discussed.

All the useful HQ's (Lords, Sorcerers, Abaddon) already have deepstrike built in (for a handful of extra points, but always worth it I think?)

Sure it's still an interesting and potentially useful tool to have in your pocket to reposition something like a Lord Discordant at some point if it gets trapped. It's a shame the Dark Apostle rules are so janky, would have been nice to throw him up with some terminators.

The only HQ it might work for actually is the Master of Possession, if you deepstrike him with some Warp Talons. Not sure that'd be worth it though.

Totally not worth it. WTs (other than EC) need to deep strike with a CL for the Host Raptorial trait, which makes Infernal Power redundant. They survive by tripointing and die from small arms fire, which makes Cursed Earth redundant. The other spells don’t even affect WTs

 lindsay40k wrote:

Totally not worth it. WTs (other than EC) need to deep strike with a CL for the Host Raptorial trait

This is exactly why I'm seriously considering allying some EC with my AL, although I'm also considering Night Lords as they have a 3D6 charge strat that also sounds good.

Not sure which strat is better tbh, the EC or the NL one. 3D6 vs changing any dice to a 6. Though the EC one works on terminators too, which probably makes it a winner regardless.

It's a shame you can't mix-and-match abilities. Being able to Alpha Legion deepstrike a squad of 10x thunder hammer chosen, and then us the EC strat to charge with them, would actually bring some of the Chaos units up to the loyalist marines power level.

Niiru wrote:
It's a shame you can't mix-and-match abilities.

It was possible in 7th -- which is why you had things like teleporting invisible Grav Centurions with 4+ FNP saves.

It's probably for the best!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 lindsay40k wrote:

Niiru wrote:
The only HQ it might work for actually is the Master of Possession, if you deepstrike him with some Warp Talons. Not sure that'd be worth it though.

Totally not worth it. WTs (other than EC) need to deep strike with a CL for the Host Raptorial trait, which makes Infernal Power redundant. They survive by tripointing and die from small arms fire, which makes Cursed Earth redundant. The other spells don’t even affect WTs

You know what is interesting though -- the MoP can summon in the psychic phase. So you could totally jump wherever needed and summon a unit of Flamers to roast something, a Poxbringer to drop a Leviathan or Knight to T7, CC units to hide behind cover and then assault in the next turn... I'm not familiar with Daemons but I'm sure there's some cool ideas there.