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 MrMoustaffa wrote:

 p5freak wrote:

 small_gods wrote:

It does trigher bolter discipline thankfully. It says 'including bolt weapon profile of relics such as blood song and lions wrath'. So we should be pretty safe.

Also with the lord on bike (until he gets mothballed) you could shoot with relic and use daemon shells on the bike's combi bolter. Very habdy for finishing off a character a turn.

Unfortunately vipers bite doesnt have any bolt weapon profile, so no bolter discipline.

However, an AL headhunter lord on bike with vipers bite can snipe characters with the vipers bite and use daemon shells with the bikes twin boltguns.

Why would it not have Bolter discipline, it's a combi Bolter with a relic statline. This is like arguing the Hammer of Sunderance didn't interact with Grinding Advance because it "wasn't a battlecannon". Which people tried to do, and were proven wrong. Just because it was no longer verbatim called a "battlecannon" in that instance didn't mean it lost the interaction with grinding advance. Yes I'm sure in some legalese mindset it doesn't work but intent in the past shows it should be fine. At worst, it'll get FAQ'D to clarify that yes, its still a bolt weapon, but I can't see the average person arguing against it.

Its a bolt weapon, it just gets a fancier profile. It still starts its life as a combi bolter. I can't think of a relic that makes it stop counting as its original weapon type, if there is its news to me. It should work with Bolter discipline just fine.

Well to be fair, the argument made sense, as far as I recall.

It replaces a weapon and has the following profile. One good example is thinking of the Mindforged Stave for Iron Hands. It can replace any Force Weapon, so what would happen if we had a rule to interact with a particular Force Weapon type, like an Axe? It says Stave in its name but it might replace the Axe or the Staff or the Sword.

We can probably say it should benefit, like Hammer would. HOWEVER it is up to GW to make sure it's worded as such.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 MrMoustaffa wrote:

 p5freak wrote:

 small_gods wrote:

It does trigher bolter discipline thankfully. It says 'including bolt weapon profile of relics such as blood song and lions wrath'. So we should be pretty safe.

Also with the lord on bike (until he gets mothballed) you could shoot with relic and use daemon shells on the bike's combi bolter. Very habdy for finishing off a character a turn.

Unfortunately vipers bite doesnt have any bolt weapon profile, so no bolter discipline.

However, an AL headhunter lord on bike with vipers bite can snipe characters with the vipers bite and use daemon shells with the bikes twin boltguns.

Why would it not have Bolter discipline, it's a combi Bolter with a relic statline. This is like arguing the Hammer of Sunderance didn't interact with Grinding Advance because it "wasn't a battlecannon". Which people tried to do, and were proven wrong. Just because it was no longer verbatim called a "battlecannon" in that instance didn't mean it lost the interaction with grinding advance. Yes I'm sure in some legalese mindset it doesn't work but intent in the past shows it should be fine. At worst, it'll get FAQ'D to clarify that yes, its still a bolt weapon, but I can't see the average person arguing against it.

Its a bolt weapon, it just gets a fancier profile. It still starts its life as a combi bolter. I can't think of a relic that makes it stop counting as its original weapon type, if there is its news to me. It should work with Bolter discipline just fine.

Well to be fair, the argument made sense, as far as I recall.

It replaces a weapon and has the following profile. One good example is thinking of the Mindforged Stave for Iron Hands. It can replace any Force Weapon, so what would happen if we had a rule to interact with a particular Force Weapon type, like an Axe? It says Stave in its name but it might replace the Axe or the Staff or the Sword.

We can probably say it should benefit, like Hammer would. HOWEVER it is up to GW to make sure it's worded as such.

It says exactly that in the big Faq 2019. If the weapon replaces a rapid fire bolt weapon then it benifits from bolter discipline.

It doesn't matter that it's not named, it gives examples but also has a general rule for relics.

Arkos +1 CP to make Warlord + trait that makes him -1 to be hit + boon of the gods for nurgle mark + miasma of pestilance = Arkos being -4 to be shot and -3 to be hit in CC?

The4thEnemy wrote:
Arkos +1 CP to make Warlord + trait that makes him -1 to be hit + boon of the gods for nurgle mark + miasma of pestilance = Arkos being -4 to be shot and -3 to be hit in CC?

Does he do anything for an army besides infiltrate and be hard to hit? Like his +1 advance/charge aura, says that it works with some specific faction called the faithless. Can I make my army "Alpha Legion, the Faithless" or something like that? It seems like to make your units benefit from his aura you'd no longer be RAW Alpha Legion, you'd be "alpha legion and friends". So at best he's just an infiltrating character on foot thats stupidly hard to hit, right?

 small_gods wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 MrMoustaffa wrote:

 p5freak wrote:

 small_gods wrote:

It does trigher bolter discipline thankfully. It says 'including bolt weapon profile of relics such as blood song and lions wrath'. So we should be pretty safe.

Also with the lord on bike (until he gets mothballed) you could shoot with relic and use daemon shells on the bike's combi bolter. Very habdy for finishing off a character a turn.

Unfortunately vipers bite doesnt have any bolt weapon profile, so no bolter discipline.

However, an AL headhunter lord on bike with vipers bite can snipe characters with the vipers bite and use daemon shells with the bikes twin boltguns.

Why would it not have Bolter discipline, it's a combi Bolter with a relic statline. This is like arguing the Hammer of Sunderance didn't interact with Grinding Advance because it "wasn't a battlecannon". Which people tried to do, and were proven wrong. Just because it was no longer verbatim called a "battlecannon" in that instance didn't mean it lost the interaction with grinding advance. Yes I'm sure in some legalese mindset it doesn't work but intent in the past shows it should be fine. At worst, it'll get FAQ'D to clarify that yes, its still a bolt weapon, but I can't see the average person arguing against it.

Its a bolt weapon, it just gets a fancier profile. It still starts its life as a combi bolter. I can't think of a relic that makes it stop counting as its original weapon type, if there is its news to me. It should work with Bolter discipline just fine.

Well to be fair, the argument made sense, as far as I recall.

It replaces a weapon and has the following profile. One good example is thinking of the Mindforged Stave for Iron Hands. It can replace any Force Weapon, so what would happen if we had a rule to interact with a particular Force Weapon type, like an Axe? It says Stave in its name but it might replace the Axe or the Staff or the Sword.

We can probably say it should benefit, like Hammer would. HOWEVER it is up to GW to make sure it's worded as such.

It says exactly that in the big Faq 2019. If the weapon replaces a rapid fire bolt weapon then it benifits from bolter discipline.

It doesn't matter that it's not named, it gives examples but also has a general rule for relics.

That's a separate rule though. We are talking about Grinding Advance, which never had an issue to need that pretext.

 MrMoustaffa wrote:

The4thEnemy wrote:
Arkos +1 CP to make Warlord + trait that makes him -1 to be hit + boon of the gods for nurgle mark + miasma of pestilance = Arkos being -4 to be shot and -3 to be hit in CC?

Does he do anything for an army besides infiltrate and be hard to hit? Like his +1 advance/charge aura, says that it works with some specific faction called the faithless. Can I make my army "Alpha Legion, the Faithless" or something like that? It seems like to make your units benefit from his aura you'd no longer be RAW Alpha Legion, you'd be "alpha legion and friends". So at best he's just an infiltrating character on foot thats stupidly hard to hit, right?

Faithless are a successor legion, so you don't have any problem using his (somewhat limited for the cost) aura on your army: run them as Faithless, there's no difference at all, as there are zero unique characters for AL, which is the only thing you'd lose access to by doing so.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And also, that sounds cute but the -1 to hit trait is gonna go on a Discolord 9 times out of 10, who loves loves loves that stack

As far as I'm aware, I don't think it's RAW possible to 'run them as Faithless', as there are no rules for 'successor legions' - you have to pick an existiing Legion or Renegade Chapter. Frustrating, but there it is.

 Drakeslayer wrote:
As far as I'm aware, I don't think it's RAW possible to 'run them as Faithless', as there are no rules for 'successor legions' - you have to pick an existiing Legion or Renegade Chapter. Frustrating, but there it is.

So arkos can't be really used?

He can insofar as he benefits Alpha Legion, but otherwise no - like most FW chaos characters you'd have to houserule it. He was given the Alpha Legion keyword in an FAQ I think, so you can use him in an AL detachment, but you can't make CSM FAITHLESS.

 Drakeslayer wrote:
He can insofar as he benefits Alpha Legion, but otherwise no - like most FW chaos characters you'd have to houserule it. He was given the Alpha Legion keyword in an FAQ I think, so you can use him in an AL detachment, but you can't make CSM FAITHLESS.

Feths sake, so discouraging for things to come for FW 40k non dreads...

I feel the same way about Necrosious and Zhufor.

 Drakeslayer wrote:
I feel the same way about Necrosious and Zhufor.

Meanwhile last CA they nerfed r&h even..

Like why?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 small_gods wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 MrMoustaffa wrote:

 p5freak wrote:

 small_gods wrote:

It does trigher bolter discipline thankfully. It says 'including bolt weapon profile of relics such as blood song and lions wrath'. So we should be pretty safe.

Also with the lord on bike (until he gets mothballed) you could shoot with relic and use daemon shells on the bike's combi bolter. Very habdy for finishing off a character a turn.

Unfortunately vipers bite doesnt have any bolt weapon profile, so no bolter discipline.

However, an AL headhunter lord on bike with vipers bite can snipe characters with the vipers bite and use daemon shells with the bikes twin boltguns.

Why would it not have Bolter discipline, it's a combi Bolter with a relic statline. This is like arguing the Hammer of Sunderance didn't interact with Grinding Advance because it "wasn't a battlecannon". Which people tried to do, and were proven wrong. Just because it was no longer verbatim called a "battlecannon" in that instance didn't mean it lost the interaction with grinding advance. Yes I'm sure in some legalese mindset it doesn't work but intent in the past shows it should be fine. At worst, it'll get FAQ'D to clarify that yes, its still a bolt weapon, but I can't see the average person arguing against it.

Its a bolt weapon, it just gets a fancier profile. It still starts its life as a combi bolter. I can't think of a relic that makes it stop counting as its original weapon type, if there is its news to me. It should work with Bolter discipline just fine.

Well to be fair, the argument made sense, as far as I recall.

It replaces a weapon and has the following profile. One good example is thinking of the Mindforged Stave for Iron Hands. It can replace any Force Weapon, so what would happen if we had a rule to interact with a particular Force Weapon type, like an Axe? It says Stave in its name but it might replace the Axe or the Staff or the Sword.

We can probably say it should benefit, like Hammer would. HOWEVER it is up to GW to make sure it's worded as such.

It says exactly that in the big Faq 2019. If the weapon replaces a rapid fire bolt weapon then it benifits from bolter discipline.

It doesn't matter that it's not named, it gives examples but also has a general rule for relics.

That's a separate rule though. We are talking about Grinding Advance, which never had an issue to need that pretext.

But it, airquotes heavily implied here, technically did. Grinding advance specifically pointed out what weapons it worked with, like the battlecannon. It listed each one. People were arguing you couldn't grinding advance with the Hammer of Sunderance relic because it "replaced" the battlecannon, and grinding advance did not specify that it worked with the Hammer of Sunderance. It was the epitome of splitting hairs. Intent was there, but Rules Lawyers were trying to legalese it. Essentially the same thing we're seeing here with this alpha legion relic, if GW hadn't specified with the Bolter discipline rule that it was ok, probably because of the Hammer of Sunderance example.

As for the Arkos thing @Drakeslayer, that's what I thought. You could make your army <the faithless> but the faithless don't technically have a legion trait so they wouldn't get the -1 to hit and Alpha Legion Abilities. But you can take him as Alpha Legion and use him for everything but the +1" advance/charge ability, which specifies <the faithless>. Which is a shame because that's a really handy ability for Alpha Legion, and with all the new deployment options, would actually be quite handy.

 p5freak wrote:

Waaaghbert wrote:
Do we know if an AL Character can use the Demon Shell Strat with Vipers Wail? Could be usefull to popp some MW on a enemy character with the sniper Trait

There is no such thing as a vipers wail. If you mean vipers bite the answer is no. Daemon shells refers to bolt weapons. Vipers bite is vipers bite, its not a bolt weapon, as needed for the daemon shells stratagem.

Um... except that Bolter Discipline still applies to Vipers Bite, because it still counts as a bolt weapon. So daemon shells should (might?) still work as well.

Probably needs an FAQ.

Edit: I wrote this without realising there had already been a discussion on this. Vipers definitely gets Bolter Discipline, and I still think daemon shells needs an faq cos personally I would rule that the Viper is still a bolter, it's just a named bolter.

Oh my bad, I didn't realise that, ta Drakeslayer.

Well, I’ve packed a WB Slaaneshi Daemonkin list built for T1 Possessed tarpit, and en route to Warhammer World…

…to fight World Eaters

Not sure what can be gleaned from a civil war, but I guess we’ll see how Gal Vorbak do against Red Butchers


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Okay, but seriously - my list’s plan is to advance and try to charge with like everything on turn one. Instead, I’m going to use my mobility to try to pick my fights and play the mission (probably Maelstrom), and use my Venomcrawler to soften her up (when two melee lists meet, I stop and take stock as to who’s technically got the shootier one)

My oblit’s gonna teleport in, try to bag a rooftop vantage point, and my disco lord’s not going to try to get too clever with his Baleflamer. Getting within 16” of a party van or bloodthirster to henpeck it is a mug’s game.

I’ll probably try use my Fiends of Slaanesh to burn off her CP. If they can get the charge in, she’ll want to pop CA rather than get her RBs ate. If her BT can’t CA, three DE’s should be able to duff it.

My favorite legion for a while now has been Iron Warriors. I think the new stuff is... decent. Not fixing the core issues of the army, of course, but pretty good. For example, a Discolord with the WLT that lets you ignore penalties for moving and shooting heavy weapons with a pack of Forgefiend/Venomcrawler/Defiler would fix daemon engines as you now hit on 3s and don't have the penalty for moving (which they should ignore by default if you ask me...). It's just on a Discolord who isn't that hard to kill and would be a LOT of points in that package.

Or a lord with the re-roll 1s to wound sitting back with a bunch of Havocs, maybe with the Stargate thing to give them a 5++.

Or a lord with the ignore penalties for moving with heavy weapons with a few heavy weapon CSM squads around him as a moving ball of death. I'm a big fan of Chaincannons on CSM squads because the high ROF offets the penalty. Remove the penalty and it gets better. Maybe some heavy bolters too for fire support since they have lower ROF but longer range so they can support the chaincannon squads.

Nothing that's going to light up GTs, but enough that it could be fun.

I think the biggest problem is no real way to get multiple WLTs out when a lot is super good. I would have liked to have seen something like council of traitors as a generic CSM thing, because their champions/lords are often minor warlords in their own right with their own groups, rather than just line officers.

The biggest issue for me is that you're still encouraged to mix legions/renegaes and cult troops, irrespective of whether your chosen legion would have them or not.

Wayniac wrote:
My favorite legion for a while now has been Iron Warriors. I think the new stuff is... decent. Not fixing the core issues of the army, of course, but pretty good. For example, a Discolord with the WLT that lets you ignore penalties for moving and shooting heavy weapons with a pack of Forgefiend/Venomcrawler/Defiler would fix daemon engines as you now hit on 3s and don't have the penalty for moving (which they should ignore by default if you ask me...). It's just on a Discolord who isn't that hard to kill and would be a LOT of points in that package.

Or a lord with the re-roll 1s to wound sitting back with a bunch of Havocs, maybe with the Stargate thing to give them a 5++.

Or a lord with the ignore penalties for moving with heavy weapons with a few heavy weapon CSM squads around him as a moving ball of death. I'm a big fan of Chaincannons on CSM squads because the high ROF offets the penalty. Remove the penalty and it gets better. Maybe some heavy bolters too for fire support since they have lower ROF but longer range so they can support the chaincannon squads.

Nothing that's going to light up GTs, but enough that it could be fun.

I think the biggest problem is no real way to get multiple WLTs out when a lot is super good. I would have liked to have seen something like council of traitors as a generic CSM thing, because their champions/lords are often minor warlords in their own right with their own groups, rather than just line officers.

I think if you're running IW you should really consider Oblits. They have so many buffs from IW and if you have a few cultists you can make them untargetable.

They can add an extra 50% damage output over the rest of csm oblits and they can reduce AP by one so with a unit dropped in cover they have a +3 save vs lascannons!

Have warp talons become usable, now that they have near-guaranteed charges? Or are you still better off using something else?

I know berserkers in rhino's are still better, but they're also more expensive because of the rhino. Terminators are also more expensive.


Edit:

Second question -

I'm considering either of the following:

Alpha Legion - Renascent Infiltration - What unit would be good for this? AL has no charge improvements, so it seems best used on something with short-range but powerful shooting, that would normally require expensive transportation to get to where it should be. Chaincannon havocs might work, but you'd only be able to do it with a single unit of 5. A big 10-man squad of Plasma-Chosen might be a nasty surprise, basically the same as the plasma-terminator suicide drop, but cheaper. Berserkers might work with a banner, but it would be a risk as they can fail the charge.

Emperors Children Termite - Fill a termite with a squad of something. Still a turn 2 attack (same as above), but now for 1CP you can nearly guarantee a charge from whatever you put in there. Possessed might work. Chosen with combi-bolters (or plasma I guess, but expensive) and chainswords (or Hammers, but again expensive) could in theory drop in, shoot at one unit and then charge another. Would be expensive though, but the nearly guaranteed charge is a potentially powerful feature.

Emperors Children or Night Lords - Warp Talons (or raptors?). Drop in, nearly guaranteed charge. EmpChildren might be stronger than Night Lords for this, if only because of the stratagems that gives bonus attacks. Night Lords can mess with auras and stuff though, which might work out better.

So basically the question becomes, do the new stratagems and abilities give us any new unit choices/builds? Saving points by not buying rhinos is a nice buff by itself. I'd love to make Talons a nasty kill-ball too. Or raptors, but I don't think raptors will ever be good enough, unless GW fix the leadership bomb problem.

Just considering the best fit for my fellblade with the new rules. Iron warriors seems a bit nuts (lets hope CA gets a pts drop)

1cp re-roll the damage + number of shots
1cp re-roll to wound vs vehicles

1cp gain 3 wounds back

so you have 8 lascannon shots re-rolling to wound and the damage vs vehicles
a now d6 demolisher cannon, re-rolling number of shots, wounds and damage vs vehicles

then the heavy cannon is 2d6 (always re-rolling with the strat) s8 -3 2dmg shots re-rolling to wound vs vehicles
or the 2 s14 -4 6dmg shots re-rolling to wound vs vehicles

for buffs:
you have a slannesh sorcerer nearby to give him a 5+fnp + prescience with the move and fire WL trait heavy weps
you have a smith nearby to pop him up d3, so potential 6 wound heal
or a priest to either make it -1 to get shot at or +1 to wound

quick maths should average one shot a knight a turn with the las and main gun alone and getting hit back its 4's to hit ye at t9 with a 2+ save a 5+ fnp and 26 wounds which you heal 4-6 a turn

Niiru wrote:
Night Lords can mess with auras and stuff though, which might work out better.

This is as good or better as a defensive buff in a lot of cases. So it's going to go really well with all the other defensive buffs that were listed in the last post.

 Latro_ wrote:
Just considering the best fit for my fellblade with the new rules. Iron warriors seems a bit nuts (lets hope CA gets a pts drop)

1cp re-roll the damage + number of shots
1cp re-roll to wound vs vehicles

1cp gain 3 wounds back

so you have 8 lascannon shots re-rolling to wound and the damage vs vehicles
a now d6 demolisher cannon, re-rolling number of shots, wounds and damage vs vehicles

then the heavy cannon is 2d6 (always re-rolling with the strat) s8 -3 2dmg shots re-rolling to wound vs vehicles
or the 2 s14 -4 6dmg shots re-rolling to wound vs vehicles

for buffs:
you have a slannesh sorcerer nearby to give him a 5+fnp with the move and fire WL trait heavy weps
you have a smith nearby to pop him up d3, so potential 6 wound heal
or a priest to either make it -1 to get shot at or +1 to wound

I think IW definately has the tastiest strats for a fellblade. I'd take a sorcerer, lord and priest. Give it mark of nurgle and play the 6+ fnp and lower ap strats. -2 to hit, 6+ fnp and lower ap by one makes a really tough tank.

did get it a bit wrong you have to pick dmg re-roll or re-roll shots
considering re-rolling 2d6 on average gets you an 8 not a 7 i think the dmg is the way to go

 Latro_ wrote:
Just considering the best fit for my fellblade with the new rules. Iron warriors seems a bit nuts (lets hope CA gets a pts drop)

1cp re-roll the damage + number of shots
1cp re-roll to wound vs vehicles

1cp gain 3 wounds back

so you have 8 lascannon shots re-rolling to wound and the damage vs vehicles
a now d6 demolisher cannon, re-rolling number of shots, wounds and damage vs vehicles

then the heavy cannon is 2d6 (always re-rolling with the strat) s8 -3 2dmg shots re-rolling to wound vs vehicles
or the 2 s14 -4 6dmg shots re-rolling to wound vs vehicles

for buffs:
you have a slannesh sorcerer nearby to give him a 5+fnp + prescience with the move and fire WL trait heavy weps
you have a smith nearby to pop him up d3, so potential 6 wound heal
or a priest to either make it -1 to get shot at or +1 to wound

quick maths should average one shot a knight a turn with the las and main gun alone and getting hit back its 4's to hit ye at t9 with a 2+ save a 5+ fnp and 26 wounds which you heal 4-6 a turn

Glad to see I'm not the only one who runs one of these beasts.

Sorry to tell you though, the wording on machine malifica says you can only regain wounds using that ability. So no 3 to 6 wounds back a turn.

Otherwise sounds good. Hoping for a points drop too.

ah shucks, missed that one!

Running the maths (well i did a 100,000 rolls using a computer program) its interesting actually how little you gain re-rolling shots if you re-roll at the point of an average.

Really simple thing i did that run's a million simulations (execute code runs it):
http://sandbox.onlinephpfunctions.com/code/697c673673d6c77dad836d3dab1226e6c380e37e

perhaps this logic is off, you only seem to get 1 - 2 extra shots when re-rolling anything below a 4.

Anyone had any thoughts on the use of Combat Elixirs?

I considered making T5 terminators, but to be honest it seems much more 'Emperors Children' to go with +1 attacks. With the guaranteed charge it makes cheap chainaxe terminators fairly blendy.

Also considering +1 attack for Warp Talons. With a guaranteed charge and 3 attacks each rerolling all wounds they may actually finally be somewhat worthwhile playing with!

I've been looking at the WE red butchers Terminators.

I have 10 of lightning claw Terminators that could be really good with 8 attacks each reroll str 5 -2ap attacks.

Only thing is how do you get them in combat? I've thought of using the +1 charge WL trait and icon of wrath but still feels hit and miss.

 small_gods wrote:
I've been looking at the WE red butchers Terminators.

I have 10 of lightning claw Terminators that could be really good with 8 attacks each reroll str 5 -2ap attacks.

Only thing is how do you get them in combat? I've thought of using the +1 charge WL trait and icon of wrath but still feels hit and miss.

This is exactly why I was interesting in emperors children.

For the same points, you only get 5 attacks each instead of 8, but you get a guaranteed (well, nearly) charge. Spend an extra CP and you get exploding attacks as well. Might end up a little more expensive in CP, but in my opinion its worth it. The Red Butchers might be stronger and cheaper (in CP), but if they fail the charge they're just a very pointy paperweight.

Niiru wrote:
Alpha Legion - Renascent Infiltration - What unit would be good for this? AL has no charge improvements, so it seems best used on something with short-range but powerful shooting, that would normally require expensive transportation to get to where it should be. Chaincannon havocs might work, but you'd only be able to do it with a single unit of 5. A big 10-man squad of Plasma-Chosen might be a nasty surprise, basically the same as the plasma-terminator suicide drop, but cheaper. Berserkers might work with a banner, but it would be a risk as they can fail the charge.

I thought the max number of combi-Plasmas you could have in a squad were 5? Would the rest of the chosen just be taken without additional equipment?

 blood reaper wrote:

Niiru wrote:
Alpha Legion - Renascent Infiltration - What unit would be good for this? AL has no charge improvements, so it seems best used on something with short-range but powerful shooting, that would normally require expensive transportation to get to where it should be. Chaincannon havocs might work, but you'd only be able to do it with a single unit of 5. A big 10-man squad of Plasma-Chosen might be a nasty surprise, basically the same as the plasma-terminator suicide drop, but cheaper. Berserkers might work with a banner, but it would be a risk as they can fail the charge.

I thought the max number of combi-Plasmas you could have in a squad were 5? Would the rest of the chosen just be taken without additional equipment?

I'd have to double check my codex, I thought the remaining chosen could still get combi-bolters for some reason but maybe not. Still probably worth it for the ablative wounds and extra attacks if they get into a fight.

I'm leaning more towards emperors children being a stronger contender for the glass-cannon army at the moment though.