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Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Why not just RUN Alpha Legion though as a whole detachment? There isn't an incentive not to.

2 hq , 30 cultists, to get access to assasin hq .

Ok so I have pretty much sworn off 40k since the great Marine ascension in the summer.

So as a silver lining to having the Word Bearer trait left horrendously terrible can you field a mixed legion Detachment to use all these cool relics/strats and power it with Red Corsairs/Daemon Battalion(s)?

Because that could at least be a fun modeling/painting project before getting eviscerated by the Loyalists

 Eldarain wrote:
Ok so I have pretty much sworn off 40k since the great Marine ascension in the summer.

So as a silver lining to having the Word Bearer trait left horrendously terrible can you field a mixed legion Detachment to use all these cool relics/strats and power it with Red Corsairs/Daemon Battalion(s)?

Because that could at least be a fun modeling/painting project before getting eviscerated by the Loyalists

You need a pure detachment to unlock these strats.
to my knowledge.

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Eldarain wrote:
Ok so I have pretty much sworn off 40k since the great Marine ascension in the summer.

So as a silver lining to having the Word Bearer trait left horrendously terrible can you field a mixed legion Detachment to use all these cool relics/strats and power it with Red Corsairs/Daemon Battalion(s)?

Because that could at least be a fun modeling/painting project before getting eviscerated by the Loyalists

You need a pure detachment to unlock these strats.
to my knowledge.

You can mix chaos space marines but you don't get any legion traits. You can't mix with other heratic astartes or use auxiliary support.

Yeah but supposedly , to unlock these, you need a pure detachment (AL only or WB,etc.)

Not Online!!! wrote:
Yeah but supposedly , to unlock these, you need a pure detachment (AL only or WB,etc.)

Ah sorry, didn't think the psychic awakening would be different from codex strats and relics but that makes sense.

 small_gods wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
Yeah but supposedly , to unlock these, you need a pure detachment (AL only or WB,etc.)

Ah sorry, didn't think the psychic awakening would be different from codex strats and relics but that makes sense.

Which makes them,with the whole shabang of WT traits needed , quite annoying considering the ammount of detachment and CP you need to invest.


AND, more importanty, Most of these legions , can NOT, get two + warlord traits , Alpha legion is the only one that got a Stratagem for an additional trait.

Not Online!!! wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Why not just RUN Alpha Legion though as a whole detachment? There isn't an incentive not to.

2 hq , 30 cultists, to get access to assasin hq .

One Lord with the relic Boltgun, one Sorc with Infernal Gaze, and you've got a pretty decent chance of taking out a HQ per turn.

Looking over the rules a bit more.

Wondering if anyone has the exact wording of the NL stuff because perhaps you can combine the WL trait and the Relic to give your DP a 0 save?!

e.g. when in cover +1 save WL trait and +2 save always count in cover relic

perhaps the WL trait specifically says 'terrain'


Also thinking are EC now a bit of an auto include for CC armies?
Can get a DP with warp time moving 28" with a 'minimum' 7" charge that you can't over watch against

or maybe better DS a sorcerer or lord 9" from a knight death hex him,
DS sme other shotty / choppy stuff near
charge in - more or less never not gonna get in with the 6" 1cp strat.
charge the other stuff in free from OW

I guess we will need to wait for that answer, but yes if it is just cover then we would basically need a clarification.

another thing i worked out is an EC sorcerer could be funny:

combat drug em: +1S
WL trait for +1s +1a on charge
Casts Dia strength on him self +2S +1 attack
Relic force sword - S User, ap - 4, D d3, abilities: can chose to X2 strength but -1 to hit.

So charging a knight:
3 + 1 + 1 + 1 (6) attacks
double ye boy up
4 + 1 + 1 + 2 x2 (16!!!! strength) so wounding on 2's

-4 d3 damage

down side is ofc ye hitting on 4's and the damage is a bit meh (can maybe Prescience)
unless i have the mod multipliers wrong.

Might be better to combo up with a sorcerer buffing (Dia stength, prescience) a lord with the relic and the trait
Extra relic it so the lord is immune to overwatch.
3cp

7 attacks hitting on a 2 with a re-roll
s16 -4 d3 dmg
should half kill a knight in one turn

 Latro_ wrote:
Also thinking are EC now a bit of an auto include for CC armies?
Can get a DP with warp time moving 28" with a 'minimum' 7" charge that you can't over watch against

They've got incredible rules, but a DP is still really pricey if you're throwing him into certain death. The real challenge will still be not getting shot to pieces by cheap SM firepower backed by re-rolls on everything!

oh yea he's dead after the first charge.. always been the case with DP's no change there.

stormcraft wrote:
Has Anyone seen anything thatforbids paying 1 CP for an auxiliary support detachment to unlock Legion Stratagems?

Maybe paying 1 CP just to take 1 AL Unit to unlock the Explode stratagem may be worth it.

PA2 specifies ‘army contains AL Detachments other than auxiliary support’

i like how GW thinks we are now supplement level.



Can't even take advantage of more Warlord traits to compensate from the lack of doctrines and other fixes to traits.

Possibly interesting facet of the WB Possessed boosts: because they’re based on auras and stacking 1CP Stratagems, they’re extremely robust against counter-Strats

DE & GSC would have to pretty much burn off their entire stock to disarm a Gal Vorbak blitz. Even then, those are not armies that are exactly terrified of 2W melee, right? One of the GSC punchy units - them hulk things - is specifically resistant to medium damage attacks, and most of the rest rely on invuln dodges (which DK Ritualists or a Nurgle Daemons ally can already bypass)

Other CSM armies that are more dependent on a keystone Strat, however, can have it embargoed. AL may, ironically, get accustomed to a de facto 12” no fly zone, then have it denied by a GSC that out-insurrects them with a xenos pileon. That’s going to be difficult to build for in TAC comp, you’ll want like a RCC Havocs squad to lay down Ambushes & Punishing Volleys when Scrambled Coordinates fails - they’ll struggle to embargo all three

Moving back to WB, I like to field unconventional WB armies - all-mortal Brigade, armoured Company, Helbrute horde - and super-Apostles, auto or +1 to cast WT/DH/Prescience, 3++ smashlords, no falling back even if you’re flying? These are going to be very nice elements making it feel a little less like a low level gauntlet of NPCs

I guess, moving forwards, BL are going to be the Legion of Three Warlords or Supertough Disco Lords, and some tasty Relics? Still got possibly the worst Tactical Objectives I’ve ever seen

The fact that none of our Legion strats and TacObjs have cards makes all of this horribly newbie-unfriendly, by the way. I’m introducing a friend to 40K, and all of the beginner accessibility of early 8th has been thrown right out the window by ‘okay, now crossreference with your fourth A4 hardcover art book that’s mainly about other armies…’

The GSC counter strat got nerfed hard 2 weeks after the book dropped. It can only be used once per battle. So you could use the 12" no fly zone strat, which they would need to counter, then once they deploy you just blow them off the table with the auspex scan strat.

GSC unofficially died with the new marine codex though, the book just doesn't function as a whole with all the counters the new marines brought with them. So it really should be one of the last things you should be concerned about.

As for DE, they don't really care about possessed. They will let you hit a cheap venom wall or throw away screen then remove the possessed pretty casually, and or relocate. Thats if the guy doesn't have fliers, which he could use to screen you out as well first turn. So yea, I don't think they care much either. A smash lord will keep the planes honest though, and with many players swapping toward "test of skill" on their air wing they will be less durable as well.

If an Ashen Axe can tag a Venom, then the entire DE army is unable to fire on the Possessed

Delightful Agonies tanks one Wych or Incubi squad’s attempt to drive them off, then Counter-Offensive raises hell

Next turn, a Raptorial detachment arrives, and all that poisoned OW is worth nothing

A fair few moving parts, to be sure, but doable

Just looking at IW oblitorators, they have crazy potential for damage output.

Even though it's an investment you could run a squad of 3 with daemon prince (with WL trait and prescience)

Spend 5 CP on strats, VotLW, EC, tank hunters and rampant techno virus.

That's 36 shots, getting around 41 hits, and averaging enough damge to do 58 wounds (43 if 4++) to knights!! It'd blow through Iron hands with no difficulty, even if you have to target the ironstone unit. And even crazier, you can hide them behind 30 cultists and keep them safe to do it all again!!

Maybe a IW patrol will get seen in a lot of soup lists.

Hold up, you Daemonkinners - deploying a few Night Lords Warp Talons at the start, with Gnarlmaw or Slaaneshi Daemon HQs nearby, can enable a 14+3D6” charge that can then forbid fall backs, even for flying things, WITHOUT WARPTIME

That’s an absolute game-changer for T1 charge lists, especially Nurgle ones that can’t field Fiends of Slaanesh, or Slaaneshi ones facing enemies that hide upstairs from said Beasts


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Alternatively: a WB Jumplord with Ashen Axe & Possessed WT. 13+3D6” T1 charge

Have a Host Raptorial Smashlord (or, perhaps, Sorcerer - love that auto cast Death Hex) fly alongside, and that’s 15+3D6”

I think a big CSM tactic is going to be slingshotting up the board using enemy screening units to serve as cover from gunlines.

If those screening units can't fall back, enemy castles can't target whatever is in combat with them. So Ashen Axe will do the job, the NL "We have come for you" stratagem, and maybe some more that I am forgetting?

I think night lords are the hidden gem. You can use vox scream off any model, so a flier like a hell talon of xiphon can get in range easily and shut down a dudes linch pin aura. Then The warlord can take the relic vox scrambler and move/warp time (warp time would obviously only come into play turn 1 to set this combo up a bit easier for turn 2) to within 6" of something like space marine infiltrators and all of their 12" omniscrambler auras become 1" range lmao. Since he moves up at the start of the movement phase, you get to THEN drop in your raptors/warp talons/smash lord on terrain, from your host raptoral and pop the 1 CP +2 to charge for a plus 3 to charge. You can then use any of the other tricks to pin them into melee or shut down overwatch. I honestly think they have the right tools in the marine meta, because while IW (which I play btw) and Alpha legion have amazing damage output, they still fall short of the new marines output and I think you lose the battle of attrition if you play by their rules.

 lindsay40k wrote:
Hold up, you Daemonkinners - deploying a few Night Lords Warp Talons at the start, with Gnarlmaw or Slaaneshi Daemon HQs nearby, can enable a 14+3D6” charge that can then forbid fall backs, even for flying things, WITHOUT WARPTIME

That’s an absolute game-changer for T1 charge lists, especially Nurgle ones that can’t field Fiends of Slaanesh, or Slaaneshi ones facing enemies that hide upstairs from said Beasts


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Alternatively: a WB Jumplord with Ashen Axe & Possessed WT. 13+3D6” T1 charge

Have a Host Raptorial Smashlord (or, perhaps, Sorcerer - love that auto cast Death Hex) fly alongside, and that’s 15+3D6”

Unfortunately, deny overwatch from Warp Talons is only when they come in from deep strike.

 Red Corsair wrote:
I honestly think they have the right tools in the marine meta, because while IW (which I play btw) and Alpha legion have amazing damage output, they still fall short of the new marines output and I think you lose the battle of attrition if you play by their rules.

This was my thinking too. Why hit marines exactly at the point where they are strongest? Once they're pinned in melee, they don't get any value from their gucci doctrines or fancy guns and you can leverage your generally superior combat output with stratagems and DttFE.

So I'm looking at Gorefather a bit closer, and it might be garbage thanks to awful GW rules writing. Given that "attack sequence" doesn't exist, the closest thing I can see is step 5 of the fight phase.

Worst interpretation on an Lord would be 4 attacks. Roll 4 to hit rolls & then all manage to hit. Then due to Gorefather's ability, if the first wound roll is an unmodified 6, you do 1 strength+2 ap-2 damage 3 wound, plus 3 mortal wounds then end the attack sequence, losing the remaining 3 attacks and potentially the wound you just rolled, as the opponent cannot allocate the wound, roll a save, or inflict damage. Extra worst case it literally ends the Fight phase as it ends the sequence, preventing you from going to the next step. Hilarious way to prevent enemy attacks.

This is going to need a FAQ fairly quickly. I'm betting there is a bunch more broken in this book. My area has like 4 TFGs so I know they'll bring this up if they're present for a game I use this thing.

StarHunter25 wrote:
So I'm looking at Gorefather a bit closer, and it might be garbage thanks to awful GW rules writing. Given that "attack sequence" doesn't exist, the closest thing I can see is step 5 of the fight phase.

Worst interpretation on an Lord would be 4 attacks. Roll 4 to hit rolls & then all manage to hit. Then due to Gorefather's ability, if the first wound roll is an unmodified 6, you do 1 strength+2 ap-2 damage 3 wound, plus 3 mortal wounds then end the attack sequence, losing the remaining 3 attacks and potentially the wound you just rolled, as the opponent cannot allocate the wound, roll a save, or inflict damage. Extra worst case it literally ends the Fight phase as it ends the sequence, preventing you from going to the next step. Hilarious way to prevent enemy attacks.

This is going to need a FAQ fairly quickly. I'm betting there is a bunch more broken in this book. My area has like 4 TFGs so I know they'll bring this up if they're present for a game I use this thing.

I mentions attack sequence in the core rules. It's under shooting phase and fight phase. It's just the roll to hit, wound, save, inflict damage sequence.

The Gorefather rules are just saying that you don't then add on nornal damage when you roll a wound roll of 6.

 small_gods wrote:

StarHunter25 wrote:
So I'm looking at Gorefather a bit closer, and it might be garbage thanks to awful GW rules writing. Given that "attack sequence" doesn't exist, the closest thing I can see is step 5 of the fight phase.

Worst interpretation on an Lord would be 4 attacks. Roll 4 to hit rolls & then all manage to hit. Then due to Gorefather's ability, if the first wound roll is an unmodified 6, you do 1 strength+2 ap-2 damage 3 wound, plus 3 mortal wounds then end the attack sequence, losing the remaining 3 attacks and potentially the wound you just rolled, as the opponent cannot allocate the wound, roll a save, or inflict damage. Extra worst case it literally ends the Fight phase as it ends the sequence, preventing you from going to the next step. Hilarious way to prevent enemy attacks.

This is going to need a FAQ fairly quickly. I'm betting there is a bunch more broken in this book. My area has like 4 TFGs so I know they'll bring this up if they're present for a game I use this thing.

I mentions attack sequence in the core rules. It's under shooting phase and fight phase. It's just the roll to hit, wound, save, inflict damage sequence.

The Gorefather rules are just saying that you don't then add on nornal damage when you roll a wound roll of 6.

So it does mean that if you hit with all 4 attacks, but you roll a single 6, then you get 3 mortal wounds but you dont roll for any of your other wounds etc. On average 3 mortal wounds is probably better than what you'd get from 4 hits, I guess. Still feels odd though. Cos you -could- have gotten 4 wounds out of it, if you were lucky with rolls for wounds.

Nah -- your limit is 12 Mortal Wounds if you have 4 attacks. Each attack roll has its own separate attack sequence.

Yoyoyo wrote:
Nah -- your limit is 12 Mortal Wounds if you have 4 attacks. Each attack roll has its own separate attack sequence.

Exactly, I could see a rules lawyer trying to argue that it's the same sequence if you fast roll them (like everybody does) but you could easily roll each attack separately if someone tries it on.

 Virules wrote:

 lindsay40k wrote:
Hold up, you Daemonkinners - deploying a few Night Lords Warp Talons at the start, with Gnarlmaw or Slaaneshi Daemon HQs nearby, can enable a 14+3D6” charge that can then forbid fall backs, even for flying things, WITHOUT WARPTIME

That’s an absolute game-changer for T1 charge lists, especially Nurgle ones that can’t field Fiends of Slaanesh, or Slaaneshi ones facing enemies that hide upstairs from said Beasts

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Alternatively: a WB Jumplord with Ashen Axe & Possessed WT. 13+3D6” T1 charge

Have a Host Raptorial Smashlord (or, perhaps, Sorcerer - love that auto cast Death Hex) fly alongside, and that’s 15+3D6”

Unfortunately, deny overwatch from Warp Talons is only when they come in from deep strike.

Doesn’t matter. A spiky anvil unit eats the overwatch, the Warp Talons join them, and they hug the enemy & play tag with gunner units to shut down shooting