Not Online!!! wrote:
I feel like the Forgefiend might start to become actually interesting now.

They're interesting units. They look a lot like a fire support Dreadnought from their shooting profile (ie. Butcher Contemptor) but their output is inferior due to their low BS.

Forgefiends are probably more of a replacement for a Rhino+CSM+Chaincannon -- they can move quickly onto an objective and still contribute some shooting downrange.

nah i didn't remove extremes. my calculations kinda like this, damage on the left number of results out of 200,000 times shooting a knight that came up on the right, ordered by that:

It factors in the random weapon dice and re-rolling them, so might be the reason 12 is a high occurring rate of damage as could be the average combo of like s8, -1, d1 etc

test 1


test 2


test 3

Yoyoyo wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
I feel like the Forgefiend might start to become actually interesting now.

They're interesting units. They look a lot like a fire support Dreadnought from their shooting profile (ie. Butcher Contemptor) but their output is inferior due to their low BS.

Forgefiends are probably more of a replacement for a Rhino+CSM+Chaincannon -- they can move quickly onto an objective and still contribute some shooting downrange.

That's the thing, Atm the full dakka (hades +ectoplasma) is 150 pts.
The dreads are still significantly cheaper, /(for that matter i count the twin butcher decimator as a dread, because it in essence is the hybrid dread.)and have still a better accuracy. However durability is something in the point of the forgefiend has.

I think there is now a place with the propper support from crimson crown or other such things like the changeling, for them replacing the dreads in some niche lists.
They are probably still too pricey for what they do, and i'd love a Hades autocannon on a plattform with Bs3+ like a predator, but now there can be a point potentially made.

Sadly the Hades AC drake still is not working.

I don't think Forgefiends are viable yet. The points reduction isn't enough to make them workable.

Forgefiends will be 128pts for Autocannons + Jaws after CA19.

You're not going to take them to replace Oblits but I think they have decent potential as midfield objective campers. They don't have alpha strike shooting potential, but if they spend 5 turns refusing to die while collecting VP and healing back up to their top bracket, that's a lot of value.

Man we can fit stuff in a 2k list, browsing the new CA..

Not Online!!! wrote:
So, what do people think about the dropped forgefiends and venomcrawlers?

I feel like the Forgefiend might start to become actually interesting now.

Champing at the bit to field a Spearhead of every single DE

If the LD can be kept alive, they’re definitely looking adequate

grouchoben wrote:I like the list except 310pts spent on dreads, that seems a bit indulgent! And a single disco lord with no help is alost pointless, unless I'm missing some new Iron Warriors shtick? It'll be cratered on T1. A rhino wouldn't go amiss too, to protect some of your precious havocs from indirect fire spam T1 ...

Fair points, I might want to end up getting a second disco lord once I figure out a good way to differentiate them.

Also 310 on dreads? It's 120 + 94 so 214 points I think?

Not Online!!! wrote:So you have a Blender Lord.
A blender DP.

ALOT of chaincannons.

2 Dreads, one of which is for melee

one squad of lascannons.
2 of Reapers.

It's a bit thin on screens imo.
And AT is a bit too reliant imo on CQC.
But with Votwl i can imagine that the reapers can do some aswell.

Good point on the lack of screens. I'm considering dropping the melee dreadnought for 20 more cultists, I just really like the model I have for the dreadnought right now.

I use a forgrfiend and 2 defilers in my khorne army. Stick them next to kharn and make a mobile walking / fire castle. If 1 gets separated due to movement i use the strat to reroll all failed hits and wounds. Makes a great setup with kharn giving full rerolls.

Wait decimators went down? I heard they were still 90?

Still 90.

Not Online!!! wrote:

Yoyoyo wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
I feel like the Forgefiend might start to become actually interesting now.

They're interesting units. They look a lot like a fire support Dreadnought from their shooting profile (ie. Butcher Contemptor) but their output is inferior due to their low BS.

Forgefiends are probably more of a replacement for a Rhino+CSM+Chaincannon -- they can move quickly onto an objective and still contribute some shooting downrange.

That's the thing, Atm the full dakka (hades +ectoplasma) is 150 pts.
The dreads are still significantly cheaper, /(for that matter i count the twin butcher decimator as a dread, because it in essence is the hybrid dread.)and have still a better accuracy. However durability is something in the point of the forgefiend has.

I think there is now a place with the propper support from crimson crown or other such things like the changeling, for them replacing the dreads in some niche lists.
They are probably still too pricey for what they do, and i'd love a Hades autocannon on a plattform with Bs3+ like a predator, but now there can be a point potentially made.

Sadly the Hades AC drake still is not working.

I think with the iron warriors daemonsmith wl trait and the insidium relic on a lord discordant you could make a decent castle with 3 forgefiends, MoP and lord discordant.

It'd only clock in at 690 points and put out a decent weight of fire. If you get powers off everything has 4++ and reroll 1s (hit and wound).

 small_gods wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

Yoyoyo wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
I feel like the Forgefiend might start to become actually interesting now.

They're interesting units. They look a lot like a fire support Dreadnought from their shooting profile (ie. Butcher Contemptor) but their output is inferior due to their low BS.

Forgefiends are probably more of a replacement for a Rhino+CSM+Chaincannon -- they can move quickly onto an objective and still contribute some shooting downrange.

That's the thing, Atm the full dakka (hades +ectoplasma) is 150 pts.
The dreads are still significantly cheaper, /(for that matter i count the twin butcher decimator as a dread, because it in essence is the hybrid dread.)and have still a better accuracy. However durability is something in the point of the forgefiend has.

I think there is now a place with the propper support from crimson crown or other such things like the changeling, for them replacing the dreads in some niche lists.
They are probably still too pricey for what they do, and i'd love a Hades autocannon on a plattform with Bs3+ like a predator, but now there can be a point potentially made.

Sadly the Hades AC drake still is not working.

I think with the iron warriors daemonsmith wl trait and the insidium relic on a lord discordant you could make a decent castle with 3 forgefiends, MoP and lord discordant.

It'd only clock in at 690 points and put out a decent weight of fire. If you get powers off everything has 4++ and reroll 1s (hit and wound).

if i would make a castle though and rely on only one discordant, i'd go with cladestine though.

Not Online!!! wrote:

 small_gods wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

Yoyoyo wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
I feel like the Forgefiend might start to become actually interesting now.

They're interesting units. They look a lot like a fire support Dreadnought from their shooting profile (ie. Butcher Contemptor) but their output is inferior due to their low BS.

Forgefiends are probably more of a replacement for a Rhino+CSM+Chaincannon -- they can move quickly onto an objective and still contribute some shooting downrange.

That's the thing, Atm the full dakka (hades +ectoplasma) is 150 pts.
The dreads are still significantly cheaper, /(for that matter i count the twin butcher decimator as a dread, because it in essence is the hybrid dread.)and have still a better accuracy. However durability is something in the point of the forgefiend has.

I think there is now a place with the propper support from crimson crown or other such things like the changeling, for them replacing the dreads in some niche lists.
They are probably still too pricey for what they do, and i'd love a Hades autocannon on a plattform with Bs3+ like a predator, but now there can be a point potentially made.

Sadly the Hades AC drake still is not working.

I think with the iron warriors daemonsmith wl trait and the insidium relic on a lord discordant you could make a decent castle with 3 forgefiends, MoP and lord discordant.

It'd only clock in at 690 points and put out a decent weight of fire. If you get powers off everything has 4++ and reroll 1s (hit and wound).

if i would make a castle though and rely on only one discordant, i'd go with cladestine though.

Yeah it's probably a little tougher to remove but you can have prepared positions and dour duty for a t7 13w 0+ lord discordant which is pretty funny.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also that's 156 shots with avenger gatling cannons or heavy burst riptide, which is nuts.

Yoyoyo wrote:
Still 90.

Then wouldn't it be 140 with two butcher canons? The reviews I watched hadn't mentioned butcher canons going down again.

Hellforged contemptor with twin butcher cannons is still 88+25+25=138.

 ph34r wrote:
I might want to end up getting a second disco lord once I figure out a good way to differentiate them.

Change the glaive for an Ork Nob or Killa Kan weapon, leave the face plate off one of the mechs, swap the backpack with a Possessed (who becomes an Icon Bearer), paint the Daemon skin a very different colour, use varied OSL

 lindsay40k wrote:

 ph34r wrote:
I might want to end up getting a second disco lord once I figure out a good way to differentiate them.

Change the glaive for an Ork Nob or Killa Kan weapon, leave the face plate off one of the mechs, swap the backpack with a Possessed (who becomes an Icon Bearer), paint the Daemon skin a very different colour, use varied OSL

Thats quite complicated. Simply paint the edge of the base in a different color.

 p5freak wrote:

 lindsay40k wrote:

 ph34r wrote:
I might want to end up getting a second disco lord once I figure out a good way to differentiate them.

Change the glaive for an Ork Nob or Killa Kan weapon, leave the face plate off one of the mechs, swap the backpack with a Possessed (who becomes an Icon Bearer), paint the Daemon skin a very different colour, use varied OSL

Thats quite complicated. Simply paint the edge of the base in a different color.

I'm a bit too on the OCD side to have one of my guy's bases not match.

I like your ideas lindsay40k, particularly the different lighting. Not sure how much OSL they will have but one could have red lenses and one could have blue lenses and such. Daemon engine and rider head swaps also seems good.

 ph34r wrote:

 p5freak wrote:

 lindsay40k wrote:

 ph34r wrote:
I might want to end up getting a second disco lord once I figure out a good way to differentiate them.

Change the glaive for an Ork Nob or Killa Kan weapon, leave the face plate off one of the mechs, swap the backpack with a Possessed (who becomes an Icon Bearer), paint the Daemon skin a very different colour, use varied OSL

Thats quite complicated. Simply paint the edge of the base in a different color.

I'm a bit too on the OCD side to have one of my guy's bases not match.

I like your ideas lindsay40k, particularly the different lighting. Not sure how much OSL they will have but one could have red lenses and one could have blue lenses and such. Daemon engine and rider head swaps also seems good.

I have 3 in a ghost theme.

One is normal.

Another has a chaos warrior shield like a knight and a third has a chaos barbarian Instrument and a shield on the other side whilest holding the glaive in a tentacle.


Simple,effective .

Any thoughts on running two big blobs of possessed? They clock in 17ppm which is only 1 more than an equivalent wound count of the newly costed plaguebearers and only 1.5 points per wound more than the 'old' plaguebearers. While it is fun to imagine all the juicy damage buffs that can be placed on the possessed the reality is most of the time it isn't necessary to have 6 damage possessed swinging around - as they mulch most of what they get into melee anyway? They are also now sitting post shock attack rule which is just gravy.

Thinking just straight alpha legion for the infiltrate and -1 to hit. Running a Term Lord and master of possession with vigilus detach - headhunter on the term lord and master of possession for the mortal wounds on 6. Put the alpha bolter on the term lord for rapid 2 5dmg -3ap 2dmg to snipe some chars... Cursed Earth goes off on a 7 but could potentially put them to a 4++.

Sprinkle in the remainder of the list a contorted epitome (slan detach for the advance and charge) and warptime somewhere (always good anyway) can be tough? As the possessed are the primary beatstick debating delightful agonies (CSM) and an exalted champ... With the points reduction to oblits and 'conceal' now being decent strat for them thinking of dropping in a x3 unit to round out the army and give some ranged threat... Also most buffs that focus on the possessed work for oblits (Delightful agonies, MOP spells, etc.)

This became a bit of a ramble and a classic case of stacking every buff on one unit and thinking how good it could (impractically) be - but TLDR thoughts on the reduced points for possessed - point per wound / damage and what is the minimum buffs necessary for them to be effective? Could they be competitive?

orkswubwub wrote:
Any thoughts on running two big blobs of possessed?

Yes, dont.

orkswubwub wrote:
Any thoughts on running two big blobs of possessed? They clock in 17ppm which is only 1 more than an equivalent wound count of the newly costed plaguebearers and only 1.5 points per wound more than the 'old' plaguebearers. While it is fun to imagine all the juicy damage buffs that can be placed on the possessed the reality is most of the time it isn't necessary to have 6 damage possessed swinging around - as they mulch most of what they get into melee anyway? They are also now sitting post shock attack rule which is just gravy.

Thinking just straight alpha legion for the infiltrate and -1 to hit. Running a Term Lord and master of possession with vigilus detach - headhunter on the term lord and master of possession for the mortal wounds on 6. Put the alpha bolter on the term lord for rapid 2 5dmg -3ap 2dmg to snipe some chars... Cursed Earth goes off on a 7 but could potentially put them to a 4++.

Sprinkle in the remainder of the list a contorted epitome (slan detach for the advance and charge) and warptime somewhere (always good anyway) can be tough? As the possessed are the primary beatstick debating delightful agonies (CSM) and an exalted champ... With the points reduction to oblits and 'conceal' now being decent strat for them thinking of dropping in a x3 unit to round out the army and give some ranged threat... Also most buffs that focus on the possessed work for oblits (Delightful agonies, MOP spells, etc.)

This became a bit of a ramble and a classic case of stacking every buff on one unit and thinking how good it could (impractically) be - but TLDR thoughts on the reduced points for possessed - point per wound / damage and what is the minimum buffs necessary for them to be effective? Could they be competitive?

I think if you're running 2 big units then you need to focus on offense potential. Sorcerer and master of possession are great buffs but there is so much potential to counter the buffs. I'd just go jump pack lord and exhalted champion for easy buffs. Word Bearers have the best stratergems for Possessed.

2+d3 attacks, 2 damage makes them insanely efficient against primaris stuff and a decent threat to armour. Biggest problem you'll face is geting clogged up on screen. You could take reaper chaincannon havocs or bikers to get them to the juicy targets.

AL forward operatives is great but situational, if you're playing someone with scouts, nurglings or phobos stuff they'll just deploy near your frontlines.

I am a huge fan of Possessed, as a Word Bearers fluff gamer, and I’m very reluctant to countenance a double horde thereof. The main benefit would be, in a metagame with 2W Infantry being more prevalent, and thus 2W weaponry being more prevalent, you’re not going to get the thing you’ve invested in deleted every time you lose T1.

If I were to attempt it, it would have to be:

- all Nurgle
- DK list with a Gnarlmaw for endless advance + charge, and Locus of Virulence, and Virulent Blessing
- strong arguments for DG - Blightbringer makes their Advances much more efficient, and Blades of Putrefaction & Putrescent Vitality makes them more punchy
- strong arguments for Word Bearers - the new strat, and also to bring along a Possessed Lord with Jump Pack and Axe Of You’re Not Allowed To Fall Back
- AL could work - less vulnerable if you lose T1, everybody's charging T1

I will be trying it at some point, in WB/DG/DoN lists that work as an amoeba, and in WB/DoN/DoS lists (love that Epitome and Enrapturess) that work as pincers (and probably bring a couple of Oblits units as well). It’ll be a bit garagehammer gimmick, and a lot of fluffy fun!

So helldrakes.. looking pretty damn good for 140 points right?

Can see people advocating nightlords... but apart from vox scream is there any other reason? Note you cant lock things in combat because they are vehicles.

mrtomski wrote:
So helldrakes.. looking pretty damn good for 140 points right?

Can see people advocating nightlords... but apart from vox scream is there any other reason? Note you cant lock things in combat because they are vehicles.

I personally don't see the benefit of running a 3x heldrake wing as night lords. Unless you are already planning on running 3x drakes anyway, and so running them as dedicated night lords wing costs you nothing. If you're just wanting to bring one drake (or two), youre better off just running them as your main legion and not trying to crowbar in another detachment. IMO, anyway. Vox scream is pretty good. Just not sure if heldrakes are good -enough- to try and build a quarter of your list around?


I actually came here to ask my own (somewhat related) question. What are the best chaos flyers at the moment? Is it the heldrake? How do the FW options stack up, now that they don't seem to be getting any points changes?

Fw didn't get changed and were worse then the drake

Not Online!!! wrote:
Fw didn't get changed and were worse then the drake

Really? Fair enough. The Drake never really grabbed me that much, as it's only role seems to be to charge into a unit turn 1 and then sit there. Doesn't have enough attacks to really do much, and a single baleflamer isn't that scary either. Even at 140 points it's a pretty expensive distraction. I guess it makes its worth by flying over the enemy screen and interrupting an elite unit, but the enemy can prevent that by just ... well, screening better lol.

I may be missing something, as I'm not very experienced with flyers in general (my game group never used to use them pre-8th). The damage output just seems very weak, compared to other options for that cost. Seems like it should have double the weapons for that size of frame. Or its claws should have more attacks, or higher strength, or higher AP. Seems very weak all round.

Niiru wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
Fw didn't get changed and were worse then the drake

Really? Fair enough. The Drake never really grabbed me that much, as it's only role seems to be to charge into a unit turn 1 and then sit there. Doesn't have enough attacks to really do much, and a single baleflamer isn't that scary either. Even at 140 points it's a pretty expensive distraction. I guess it makes its worth by flying over the enemy screen and interrupting an elite unit, but the enemy can prevent that by just ... well, screening better lol.

I may be missing something, as I'm not very experienced with flyers in general (my game group never used to use them pre-8th). The damage output just seems very weak, compared to other options for that cost. Seems like it should have double the weapons for that size of frame. Or its claws should have more attacks, or higher strength, or higher AP. Seems very weak all round.

The issue is, the special issue AC that the hellblade and talon got, got nerfed to s6 but also has the audacitiy to demand 20 pts.
And then there is the general pricehike on them from 7th to 8th on both variants of them.

Niiru wrote:

I actually came here to ask my own (somewhat related) question. What are the best chaos flyers at the moment? Is it the heldrake? How do the FW options stack up, now that they don't seem to be getting any points changes?

The chaos xiphon interceptor is the best flyer, IMHO. Make it nurgle, cast miasma of pestilence on it, -2 to hit. It hits everything at 3+, FLY on 2+. Negative hit modifiers can be countered by prescience. IW have some nice strats for it, heal 3 wounds, re-roll wound rolls, re-roll damage rolls. It can turn 180 degrees, and remain in your own deployment zone.

Not Online!!! wrote:

 small_gods wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

Yoyoyo wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
I feel like the Forgefiend might start to become actually interesting now.

They're interesting units. They look a lot like a fire support Dreadnought from their shooting profile (ie. Butcher Contemptor) but their output is inferior due to their low BS.

Forgefiends are probably more of a replacement for a Rhino+CSM+Chaincannon -- they can move quickly onto an objective and still contribute some shooting downrange.

That's the thing, Atm the full dakka (hades +ectoplasma) is 150 pts.
The dreads are still significantly cheaper, /(for that matter i count the twin butcher decimator as a dread, because it in essence is the hybrid dread.)and have still a better accuracy. However durability is something in the point of the forgefiend has.

I think there is now a place with the propper support from crimson crown or other such things like the changeling, for them replacing the dreads in some niche lists.
They are probably still too pricey for what they do, and i'd love a Hades autocannon on a plattform with Bs3+ like a predator, but now there can be a point potentially made.

Sadly the Hades AC drake still is not working.

I think with the iron warriors daemonsmith wl trait and the insidium relic on a lord discordant you could make a decent castle with 3 forgefiends, MoP and lord discordant.

It'd only clock in at 690 points and put out a decent weight of fire. If you get powers off everything has 4++ and reroll 1s (hit and wound).

if i would make a castle though and rely on only one discordant, i'd go with cladestine though.

I had a very good experience running a castle of two Lord Discordants, a Master of Possession, a Forgefiend, Defiler, Venomcrawler, and two Greater Possesseds. The MoP packed Sacrifice and Infernal Power. It was later pointed out to me that redundant bonuses don't stack, and so I ended up splitting the Venomcrawler, MoP, Defiler, and Disco A into one blob with a single Greater Possessed, and one Disco and the Forgefiend into another. I had more flexibility. The DIsco B had a baleflamer and Forgefiend had the double autocannon loadout, which made them great for chewing through infantry chaff around Chimeras. I gave him the Warlord trait that gives an extra wound and 5++.

Re: differentiating Disco lords, I swapped out one's chainglave for the chainaxe from Shadowspear and added a pewter speartip to the top of it. I did a three-way swap between his backpack, a chaos lord, and the bony greater possessed. I gave him the grilled face from the new Abaddon sprue. There's enough differentiation from above and when you get close you can see the closer details as well.

What are peoples' experiences running groups of bikes? I have had success with them when loaded with plasma/combi-plasma for small units of heavy infantry, and am thinking of of running two units of flamer/combi-flamer for chaff clearing.

Dakkaforgefiend costs 140 points.

80 base + (3*20) = 140.

Each gun costs 20 and the plasma maw replaces the demonic jaw, which costs 8.

 Don Qui Hotep wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

 small_gods wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

Yoyoyo wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
I feel like the Forgefiend might start to become actually interesting now.

They're interesting units. They look a lot like a fire support Dreadnought from their shooting profile (ie. Butcher Contemptor) but their output is inferior due to their low BS.

Forgefiends are probably more of a replacement for a Rhino+CSM+Chaincannon -- they can move quickly onto an objective and still contribute some shooting downrange.

That's the thing, Atm the full dakka (hades +ectoplasma) is 150 pts.
The dreads are still significantly cheaper, /(for that matter i count the twin butcher decimator as a dread, because it in essence is the hybrid dread.)and have still a better accuracy. However durability is something in the point of the forgefiend has.

I think there is now a place with the propper support from crimson crown or other such things like the changeling, for them replacing the dreads in some niche lists.
They are probably still too pricey for what they do, and i'd love a Hades autocannon on a plattform with Bs3+ like a predator, but now there can be a point potentially made.

Sadly the Hades AC drake still is not working.

I think with the iron warriors daemonsmith wl trait and the insidium relic on a lord discordant you could make a decent castle with 3 forgefiends, MoP and lord discordant.

It'd only clock in at 690 points and put out a decent weight of fire. If you get powers off everything has 4++ and reroll 1s (hit and wound).

if i would make a castle though and rely on only one discordant, i'd go with cladestine though.

I had a very good experience running a castle of two Lord Discordants, a Master of Possession, a Forgefiend, Defiler, Venomcrawler, and two Greater Possesseds. The MoP packed Sacrifice and Infernal Power. It was later pointed out to me that redundant bonuses don't stack, and so I ended up splitting the Venomcrawler, MoP, Defiler, and Disco A into one blob with a single Greater Possessed, and one Disco and the Forgefiend into another. I had more flexibility. The DIsco B had a baleflamer and Forgefiend had the double autocannon loadout, which made them great for chewing through infantry chaff around Chimeras. I gave him the Warlord trait that gives an extra wound and 5++.

Re: differentiating Disco lords, I swapped out one's chainglave for the chainaxe from Shadowspear and added a pewter speartip to the top of it. I did a three-way swap between his backpack, a chaos lord, and the bony greater possessed. I gave him the grilled face from the new Abaddon sprue. There's enough differentiation from above and when you get close you can see the closer details as well.

What are peoples' experiences running groups of bikes? I have had success with them when loaded with plasma/combi-plasma for small units of heavy infantry, and am thinking of of running two units of flamer/combi-flamer for chaff clearing.

Just straight up combi bolter and extra combi bolter on champion is way to go imo. They always get bolter discipline so you can hold an objective and clear a screen faily successfully and they're useful as a relatively cheap screen (if you place them sideways, roadblock style) for 23 points each.

Maxed bike squads are actually sweet. 9 dudes with chainswords, combi-bolter on the champ and if you have the points chuck some meltas in there. Some very good competitive Chaos players have been using them in their lists.

Basically you surge forward T1, blow away a screen using VotLW + EC as necessary, warptime them forward and then hit the enemy lines. They are bad in combat but they are an excellent way of getting your opponent on the back foot as soon as the game begins.

I really like it personally. It feels very Chaos-y. Hit them hard and then keep the pressure on in subsequent turns as you bring in deepstrikers and the rest of your army makes it to combat.

 p5freak wrote:

Niiru wrote:

I actually came here to ask my own (somewhat related) question. What are the best chaos flyers at the moment? Is it the heldrake? How do the FW options stack up, now that they don't seem to be getting any points changes?

The chaos xiphon interceptor is the best flyer, IMHO. Make it nurgle, cast miasma of pestilence on it, -2 to hit. It hits everything at 3+, FLY on 2+. Negative hit modifiers can be countered by prescience. IW have some nice strats for it, heal 3 wounds, re-roll wound rolls, re-roll damage rolls. It can turn 180 degrees, and remain in your own deployment zone.

Interesting choice, though the cost of the platform is only a few points short of a storm eagle, which is tougher and can transport units, and still has a pretty decent amount of firepower.

Though you can take two heldrakes for the same cost as either of them, i guess.

saint_red wrote:
Maxed bike squads are actually sweet. 9 dudes with chainswords, combi-bolter on the champ and if you have the points chuck some meltas in there. Some very good competitive Chaos players have been using them in their lists.

Basically you surge forward T1, blow away a screen using VotLW + EC as necessary, warptime them forward and then hit the enemy lines. They are bad in combat but they are an excellent way of getting your opponent on the back foot as soon as the game begins.

I really like it personally. It feels very Chaos-y. Hit them hard and then keep the pressure on in subsequent turns as you bring in deepstrikers and the rest of your army makes it to combat.

I haven't tried a squad maxed out yet. I think my concern was diminishing returns with only two special weapons per, plus the combi for the champion. I definitely appreciate the output of shots though. I've got a game next week with two squads of three, chainswords, two flamers each and a combi-flamer. They make an easy outrider detachment too, with a unit of warp talons for the third Fast Attack option. I feel like they're a bit too expensive to be run for screens alone, no?

Has anyone used the Storm Eagle?

More I look at it as a transport for NL bezerkers the more I like it.

-2 to hit on your opponent's turn 1 (hard to hit + benediction of darkness)

-3 to hit on yours as you zoom into their lines (jump pack sorcerer casting miasma of Pestilence)

Try and survive a turn in the enemies deployment Zone with -3 to hit, 16w 3+ t8.

Then unload your payload. Pretty easy to do if you go first.

Maybe pair up with some other major threat. (I still really want to do soulburner decimators + Daemonsmith WLT and Disco lord)

I like the Scorpius’ rules. Is it really worth a Havoc RCC Squad plus a Rhino?

I played my Slaanesh rushdown list today and got crucified by an Ultramarines gunline plus lengthways deployment. Didn’t even make a charge, nothing left but cultists T3 - even with the trinity of 4++, 5+++, & -1 to be hit. Think I needed some kind of long-ranged gun, she had buckets of 24” firepower and a single Devastator squad to force me to come at her. A Defiler is the obvious choice, I guess, since it can also join the Daemonic tide? But it’s doubly swingy as an extreme range weapon. I suppose a C-Beamer in each corner could also do something…

My most consistent long-range shooting comes from my Defiler. I've thought about picking up a second for a long while now - it's a great model and it does a lot of damage. But I feel like my lists have been too heavy on daemon engines and not leaving a lot of room for board control.

Another option would be Predators. With double lascannons it is cheaper than the Defiler, but the Defiler brooks no argument in close combat and has a little more flexibility to be anti-tank or anti-infantry with the same model.

orkswubwub wrote:
Any thoughts on running two big blobs of possessed? They clock in 17ppm which is only 1 more than an equivalent wound count of the newly costed plaguebearers and only 1.5 points per wound more than the 'old' plaguebearers. While it is fun to imagine all the juicy damage buffs that can be placed on the possessed the reality is most of the time it isn't necessary to have 6 damage possessed swinging around - as they mulch most of what they get into melee anyway? They are also now sitting post shock attack rule which is just gravy.

Thinking just straight alpha legion for the infiltrate and -1 to hit. Running a Term Lord and master of possession with vigilus detach - headhunter on the term lord and master of possession for the mortal wounds on 6. Put the alpha bolter on the term lord for rapid 2 5dmg -3ap 2dmg to snipe some chars... Cursed Earth goes off on a 7 but could potentially put them to a 4++.

Sprinkle in the remainder of the list a contorted epitome (slan detach for the advance and charge) and warptime somewhere (always good anyway) can be tough? As the possessed are the primary beatstick debating delightful agonies (CSM) and an exalted champ... With the points reduction to oblits and 'conceal' now being decent strat for them thinking of dropping in a x3 unit to round out the army and give some ranged threat... Also most buffs that focus on the possessed work for oblits (Delightful agonies, MOP spells, etc.)

This became a bit of a ramble and a classic case of stacking every buff on one unit and thinking how good it could (impractically) be - but TLDR thoughts on the reduced points for possessed - point per wound / damage and what is the minimum buffs necessary for them to be effective? Could they be competitive?

My current list has 40 of them. I run alpha legion so the trait is a little counter intuitive as possessed want to be in cc. However, with PA2, my new strategy is to miasma and benediction of darkness one unit for -3 to be shot, advance position and warp time time up. The second unit will follow closely behind and get concealed until its time to charge. I've had some luck with daemonkin ritualist, primarily for the Shepard of the true faith warlord trait. Double exalted champions, double dark apostles. It's a little pricey and they will all die to a man, but they're a blast to play.

Am I mistaken or does the Emperor's Children stratagem Excess of Violence not have the wording preventing bonus attacks granting additional bonus attacks. I'm curious as to if a unit of power fist terminators would be pretty decent on the charge out of deep strike.

The4thEnemy wrote:


Am I mistaken or does the Emperor's Children stratagem Excess of Violence not have the wording preventing bonus attacks granting additional bonus attacks. I'm curious as to if a unit of power fist terminators would be pretty decent on the charge out of deep strike.

I... uh... hmm.

I didn't notice that.

I suspect it's going to get FAQ'd? Although it relies on kills not hits/wounds of 6's, so it cant end up murdering a knight, but it could mulch through whole units of troops... maybe it's intentional?

Hmm.

I mean I was -already- taking Emp.Children terminators and charging out of deepstrike with them, I was just planning on taking power swords though. Throwing in a fist or two won't hurt.

 Don Qui Hotep wrote:

saint_red wrote:
Maxed bike squads are actually sweet. 9 dudes with chainswords, combi-bolter on the champ and if you have the points chuck some meltas in there. Some very good competitive Chaos players have been using them in their lists.

Basically you surge forward T1, blow away a screen using VotLW + EC as necessary, warptime them forward and then hit the enemy lines. They are bad in combat but they are an excellent way of getting your opponent on the back foot as soon as the game begins.

I really like it personally. It feels very Chaos-y. Hit them hard and then keep the pressure on in subsequent turns as you bring in deepstrikers and the rest of your army makes it to combat.

I haven't tried a squad maxed out yet. I think my concern was diminishing returns with only two special weapons per, plus the combi for the champion. I definitely appreciate the output of shots though. I've got a game next week with two squads of three, chainswords, two flamers each and a combi-flamer. They make an easy outrider detachment too, with a unit of warp talons for the third Fast Attack option. I feel like they're a bit too expensive to be run for screens alone, no?

Max squad is good because it leverages EC and VotLW harder. Special weapons aren't very good anyway so the diminishing returns you mention isn't really a problem.

As for being too expensive for screens - something has to kill them. Bikers are good because you can get them into position easily, they have 24" range and they can get into combat T1 to put pressure on your opponent. Don't underestimate how valuable it is having 9 T5 W2 models that your opponent has to clear out to shoot or move up the board. This gives you time to move your second wave of dudes in.

In this battle report Jim Vesal (#1 in ITC championship right now) uses bikers in this way and it really puts his opponent on the back foot. His opponent is not a competitive player and makes some mistakes but you get a good idea of how effective this tactic can be. Note that Jim uses a DP to move with the bikes and get his warptime off.

The4thEnemy wrote:

orkswubwub wrote:
Any thoughts on running two big blobs of possessed? They clock in 17ppm which is only 1 more than an equivalent wound count of the newly costed plaguebearers and only 1.5 points per wound more than the 'old' plaguebearers. While it is fun to imagine all the juicy damage buffs that can be placed on the possessed the reality is most of the time it isn't necessary to have 6 damage possessed swinging around - as they mulch most of what they get into melee anyway? They are also now sitting post shock attack rule which is just gravy.

Thinking just straight alpha legion for the infiltrate and -1 to hit. Running a Term Lord and master of possession with vigilus detach - headhunter on the term lord and master of possession for the mortal wounds on 6. Put the alpha bolter on the term lord for rapid 2 5dmg -3ap 2dmg to snipe some chars... Cursed Earth goes off on a 7 but could potentially put them to a 4++.

Sprinkle in the remainder of the list a contorted epitome (slan detach for the advance and charge) and warptime somewhere (always good anyway) can be tough? As the possessed are the primary beatstick debating delightful agonies (CSM) and an exalted champ... With the points reduction to oblits and 'conceal' now being decent strat for them thinking of dropping in a x3 unit to round out the army and give some ranged threat... Also most buffs that focus on the possessed work for oblits (Delightful agonies, MOP spells, etc.)

This became a bit of a ramble and a classic case of stacking every buff on one unit and thinking how good it could (impractically) be - but TLDR thoughts on the reduced points for possessed - point per wound / damage and what is the minimum buffs necessary for them to be effective? Could they be competitive?

My current list has 40 of them. I run alpha legion so the trait is a little counter intuitive as possessed want to be in cc. However, with PA2, my new strategy is to miasma and benediction of darkness one unit for -3 to be shot, advance position and warp time time up. The second unit will follow closely behind and get concealed until its time to charge. I've had some luck with daemonkin ritualist, primarily for the Shepard of the true faith warlord trait. Double exalted champions, double dark apostles. It's a little pricey and they will all die to a man, but they're a blast to play.

Am I mistaken or does the Emperor's Children stratagem Excess of Violence not have the wording preventing bonus attacks granting additional bonus attacks. I'm curious as to if a unit of power fist terminators would be pretty decent on the charge out of deep strike.

Would you mind sharing your list? Why two exalted champs and two DA as they have mostly aura abilities? Particularly if you are concealing the second group of possessed?

Actually @ Nirru, they did lower the price on the Helltalons and Hellblades a bit.
it's about 130pts now for a full Hellblade. It MIGHT be worth to be considered, but that's it.


I am still astounded though on the terrible state of predators still are in.

So chaincannon havoks are still the best at killing a lot of things point for point... do we have any additional tricks except putting them in a rhino? I'm most likely going to run iron warriors now as it just seems best for my deamon engine heavy army.

I guess alpha legion repositioning seems like a very strong option.

saint_red wrote:

 Don Qui Hotep wrote:

saint_red wrote:
Maxed bike squads are actually sweet. 9 dudes with chainswords, combi-bolter on the champ and if you have the points chuck some meltas in there. Some very good competitive Chaos players have been using them in their lists.

Basically you surge forward T1, blow away a screen using VotLW + EC as necessary, warptime them forward and then hit the enemy lines. They are bad in combat but they are an excellent way of getting your opponent on the back foot as soon as the game begins.

I really like it personally. It feels very Chaos-y. Hit them hard and then keep the pressure on in subsequent turns as you bring in deepstrikers and the rest of your army makes it to combat.

I haven't tried a squad maxed out yet. I think my concern was diminishing returns with only two special weapons per, plus the combi for the champion. I definitely appreciate the output of shots though. I've got a game next week with two squads of three, chainswords, two flamers each and a combi-flamer. They make an easy outrider detachment too, with a unit of warp talons for the third Fast Attack option. I feel like they're a bit too expensive to be run for screens alone, no?

Max squad is good because it leverages EC and VotLW harder. Special weapons aren't very good anyway so the diminishing returns you mention isn't really a problem.

As for being too expensive for screens - something has to kill them. Bikers are good because you can get them into position easily, they have 24" range and they can get into combat T1 to put pressure on your opponent. Don't underestimate how valuable it is having 9 T5 W2 models that your opponent has to clear out to shoot or move up the board. This gives you time to move your second wave of dudes in.

In this battle report Jim Vesal (#1 in ITC championship right now) uses bikers in this way and it really puts his opponent on the back foot. His opponent is not a competitive player and makes some mistakes but you get a good idea of how effective this tactic can be. Note that Jim uses a DP to move with the bikes and get his warptime off.

Ah nice. I'll check out the battle report later in the day. I'm thinking of the models that I have... I have two "naked" bikers, three champions, and six sets of mixed special weapons. I'd have to proxy but I'd like to try having one 8-man naked unit with chainswords and one three-man unit with flamers. I'm guessing the DP had wings? I usually have a jump-pack sorcerer to deep strike with my warp talons but maybe he could babysit the bikes a bit. Or have the DP following the bikes, letting them warptime into combat then joining in T2.

I just wish the models weren't so dated! I didn't mind them at first but after building six of them I got a bit sick of having to putty over the moldlines in the bike itself. Luckily the new CSM sprue is roughly compatible with the bikers, though you need to massage them a little bit. If you've got a decent enough bits box it's easy to make them look unique.

Biker Champion

The biker spru also has my very favorite Chaos Space Marine head of all time... that angry head with a top knit is so perfect. It's exactly what I think of when I think of the Long War.

mrtomski wrote:
So chaincannon havoks are still the best at killing a lot of things point for point... do we have any additional tricks except putting them in a rhino? I'm most likely going to run iron warriors now as it just seems best for my deamon engine heavy army.

I guess alpha legion repositioning seems like a very strong option.

Terrax pattern assault drill. Deepstrike, disembark, buff, shoot, shoot again.

 p5freak wrote:

mrtomski wrote:
So chaincannon havoks are still the best at killing a lot of things point for point... do we have any additional tricks except putting them in a rhino? I'm most likely going to run iron warriors now as it just seems best for my deamon engine heavy army.

I guess alpha legion repositioning seems like a very strong option.

Terrax pattern assault drill. Deepstrike, disembark, buff, shoot, shoot again.

If you dont want to spend the points on the drill then the AL stratagem is the way to go.

I guess you could also use the 9" move strat on them + a blob or two of cultists, get them upfield.

Then use conceal if your opponent seizes and keep them protected by the cultists. Or if not, move on up and dakka dakka.

I picked up a Dreadclaw recently, seems that it might be a good candidate for RCC delivery as well.

 Don Qui Hotep wrote:

saint_red wrote:

 Don Qui Hotep wrote:

saint_red wrote:
Maxed bike squads are actually sweet. 9 dudes with chainswords, combi-bolter on the champ and if you have the points chuck some meltas in there. Some very good competitive Chaos players have been using them in their lists.

Basically you surge forward T1, blow away a screen using VotLW + EC as necessary, warptime them forward and then hit the enemy lines. They are bad in combat but they are an excellent way of getting your opponent on the back foot as soon as the game begins.

I really like it personally. It feels very Chaos-y. Hit them hard and then keep the pressure on in subsequent turns as you bring in deepstrikers and the rest of your army makes it to combat.

I haven't tried a squad maxed out yet. I think my concern was diminishing returns with only two special weapons per, plus the combi for the champion. I definitely appreciate the output of shots though. I've got a game next week with two squads of three, chainswords, two flamers each and a combi-flamer. They make an easy outrider detachment too, with a unit of warp talons for the third Fast Attack option. I feel like they're a bit too expensive to be run for screens alone, no?

Max squad is good because it leverages EC and VotLW harder. Special weapons aren't very good anyway so the diminishing returns you mention isn't really a problem.

As for being too expensive for screens - something has to kill them. Bikers are good because you can get them into position easily, they have 24" range and they can get into combat T1 to put pressure on your opponent. Don't underestimate how valuable it is having 9 T5 W2 models that your opponent has to clear out to shoot or move up the board. This gives you time to move your second wave of dudes in.

In this battle report Jim Vesal (#1 in ITC championship right now) uses bikers in this way and it really puts his opponent on the back foot. His opponent is not a competitive player and makes some mistakes but you get a good idea of how effective this tactic can be. Note that Jim uses a DP to move with the bikes and get his warptime off.

Ah nice. I'll check out the battle report later in the day. I'm thinking of the models that I have... I have two "naked" bikers, three champions, and six sets of mixed special weapons. I'd have to proxy but I'd like to try having one 8-man naked unit with chainswords and one three-man unit with flamers. I'm guessing the DP had wings? I usually have a jump-pack sorcerer to deep strike with my warp talons but maybe he could babysit the bikes a bit. Or have the DP following the bikes, letting them warptime into combat then joining in T2.

I just wish the models weren't so dated! I didn't mind them at first but after building six of them I got a bit sick of having to putty over the moldlines in the bike itself. Luckily the new CSM sprue is roughly compatible with the bikers, though you need to massage them a little bit. If you've got a decent enough bits box it's easy to make them look unique.

Biker Champion

The biker spru also has my very favorite Chaos Space Marine head of all time... that angry head with a top knit is so perfect. It's exactly what I think of when I think of the Long War.

It's worth the extra money to go to FW and get the Outriders. They look nice.

Emperor's children warp talons absolutely demolish 1 wound chaff, due to the excess of violence buff that no longer puts a limit on how many attacks it can generate.

Deep strike them 9 away spread out as much as you can so you can charge as much of the enemy line as possible, cast prescience on them charge there entire army that is in range (they can't over watch due to warpflame strike) use praise the prince to almost guarantee the charge by changing 1 dice to a 6.

Once in combat with there entire chaff line, use veterans of the long war and excess of violence, try to stay in range of your daemon prince/chaos lord for the reroll of 1s.

31 attacks split between however many units you have charged 3 attacks each 4 on champion, 2+ with re-roll to hit, 2+ with re-rolls to wound.

Every kill generates an extra attack, if the chaff doesn't have at least a 5+ save they can just say goodbye to their screens.

 Rydria wrote:
Emperor's children warp talons absolutely demolish 1 wound chaff, due to the excess of violence buff that no longer puts a limit on how many attacks it can generate.

Deep strike them 9 away spread out as much as you can so you can charge as much of the enemy line as possible, cast prescience on them charge there entire army that is in range (they can't over watch due to warpflame strike) use praise the prince to almost guarantee the charge by changing 1 dice to a 6.

Once in combat with there entire chaff line, use veterans of the long war and excess of violence, try to stay in range of your daemon prince/chaos lord for the reroll of 1s.

31 attacks split between however many units you have charged 3 attacks each 4 on champion, 2+ with re-roll to hit, 2+ with re-rolls to wound.

Every kill generates an extra attack, if the chaff doesn't have at least a 5+ save they can just say goodbye to their screens.

I'm a big fan of Warp Talons, I run a unit of ten in most lists. Unfortunately Warptime doesn't work on units just coming out of deep strike, though - they weren't very playable until Vigilus Ablaze let you take the specialty formation. I drop a jump pack sorcerer in with the warlord trait that gives +2 to charge. I'm thinking of splitting them into two units of five, adding an extra FA option and running a Night Lords Outrider, to turn the 7 inch charge into a 5 inch charge. For me, warp talons were the big winners with Night Lords.

 Don Qui Hotep wrote:

 Rydria wrote:
Emperor's children warp talons absolutely demolish 1 wound chaff, due to the excess of violence buff that no longer puts a limit on how many attacks it can generate.

Deep strike them 9 away spread out as much as you can so you can charge as much of the enemy line as possible, cast prescience on them charge there entire army that is in range (they can't over watch due to warpflame strike) use praise the prince to almost guarantee the charge by changing 1 dice to a 6.

Once in combat with there entire chaff line, use veterans of the long war and excess of violence, try to stay in range of your daemon prince/chaos lord for the reroll of 1s.

31 attacks split between however many units you have charged 3 attacks each 4 on champion, 2+ with re-roll to hit, 2+ with re-rolls to wound.

Every kill generates an extra attack, if the chaff doesn't have at least a 5+ save they can just say goodbye to their screens.

I'm a big fan of Warp Talons, I run a unit of ten in most lists. Unfortunately Warptime doesn't work on units just coming out of deep strike, though - they weren't very playable until Vigilus Ablaze let you take the specialty formation. I drop a jump pack sorcerer in with the warlord trait that gives +2 to charge. I'm thinking of splitting them into two units of five, adding an extra FA option and running a Night Lords Outrider, to turn the 7 inch charge into a 5 inch charge. For me, warp talons were the big winners with Night Lords.

I didn't bring up the psychic power warptime at all though, warpflame strike is a completely different ability which prevents overwatch, praise the prince is a stratagem that lets you change the result on a charge die to 6 after rolling.

Emperor's children warptalons also have an 100% chance to successfully charge if you use the Vigilus Ablaze speciality formation, since the lowest you can roll with praise the prince + the warlord trait is 7 which is a successful charge with a +2 charge range buff.

Now that it has rules again via Legends, I was considering buying a Lord of Khorne on Juggernaut, and was wondering how one might use it in a CSM army. I was thinking of kitting mine out with a power fist and power axe (or power sword), for maximum melee power and make him as best I could the mounted version of a berzerker, but how could it be used besides other CSM units for maximum effectiveness?

orkswubwub wrote:

The4thEnemy wrote:

orkswubwub wrote:
Any thoughts on running two big blobs of possessed? They clock in 17ppm which is only 1 more than an equivalent wound count of the newly costed plaguebearers and only 1.5 points per wound more than the 'old' plaguebearers. While it is fun to imagine all the juicy damage buffs that can be placed on the possessed the reality is most of the time it isn't necessary to have 6 damage possessed swinging around - as they mulch most of what they get into melee anyway? They are also now sitting post shock attack rule which is just gravy.

Thinking just straight alpha legion for the infiltrate and -1 to hit. Running a Term Lord and master of possession with vigilus detach - headhunter on the term lord and master of possession for the mortal wounds on 6. Put the alpha bolter on the term lord for rapid 2 5dmg -3ap 2dmg to snipe some chars... Cursed Earth goes off on a 7 but could potentially put them to a 4++.

Sprinkle in the remainder of the list a contorted epitome (slan detach for the advance and charge) and warptime somewhere (always good anyway) can be tough? As the possessed are the primary beatstick debating delightful agonies (CSM) and an exalted champ... With the points reduction to oblits and 'conceal' now being decent strat for them thinking of dropping in a x3 unit to round out the army and give some ranged threat... Also most buffs that focus on the possessed work for oblits (Delightful agonies, MOP spells, etc.)

This became a bit of a ramble and a classic case of stacking every buff on one unit and thinking how good it could (impractically) be - but TLDR thoughts on the reduced points for possessed - point per wound / damage and what is the minimum buffs necessary for them to be effective? Could they be competitive?

My current list has 40 of them. I run alpha legion so the trait is a little counter intuitive as possessed want to be in cc. However, with PA2, my new strategy is to miasma and benediction of darkness one unit for -3 to be shot, advance position and warp time time up. The second unit will follow closely behind and get concealed until its time to charge. I've had some luck with daemonkin ritualist, primarily for the Shepard of the true faith warlord trait. Double exalted champions, double dark apostles. It's a little pricey and they will all die to a man, but they're a blast to play.

Am I mistaken or does the Emperor's Children stratagem Excess of Violence not have the wording preventing bonus attacks granting additional bonus attacks. I'm curious as to if a unit of power fist terminators would be pretty decent on the charge out of deep strike.

Would you mind sharing your list? Why two exalted champs and two DA as they have mostly aura abilities? Particularly if you are concealing the second group of possessed?

As I don't have access to the updated points from CA, my points will be off. Jump sorc has the mark of Nurgle for miasma and warptime. I switch between a combi bolter for long range demon shell or 2 chain axes on the exalted, if I think I'm going to have to fight another CC based army. One apostle has benediction of darkness, the other has soul render portent. They both help with the morale checks you'll end up taking when the possessed start taking fire. I make the MoP my warlord and plan to give him the +2 armor with +++5 FNP. The list is super thirsty for CP, but its fun. If you run it, REMEMBER possessed are rend 2! It could mean the difference in bracketting a knight or tank.

You’ll probably have 200-300pts extra after the CA cuts get factored in. For CSM, the reductions were significant.

 Rydria wrote:

 Don Qui Hotep wrote:

 Rydria wrote:
Emperor's children warp talons absolutely demolish 1 wound chaff, due to the excess of violence buff that no longer puts a limit on how many attacks it can generate.

Deep strike them 9 away spread out as much as you can so you can charge as much of the enemy line as possible, cast prescience on them charge there entire army that is in range (they can't over watch due to warpflame strike) use praise the prince to almost guarantee the charge by changing 1 dice to a 6.

Once in combat with there entire chaff line, use veterans of the long war and excess of violence, try to stay in range of your daemon prince/chaos lord for the reroll of 1s.

31 attacks split between however many units you have charged 3 attacks each 4 on champion, 2+ with re-roll to hit, 2+ with re-rolls to wound.

Every kill generates an extra attack, if the chaff doesn't have at least a 5+ save they can just say goodbye to their screens.

I'm a big fan of Warp Talons, I run a unit of ten in most lists. Unfortunately Warptime doesn't work on units just coming out of deep strike, though - they weren't very playable until Vigilus Ablaze let you take the specialty formation. I drop a jump pack sorcerer in with the warlord trait that gives +2 to charge. I'm thinking of splitting them into two units of five, adding an extra FA option and running a Night Lords Outrider, to turn the 7 inch charge into a 5 inch charge. For me, warp talons were the big winners with Night Lords.

I didn't bring up the psychic power warptime at all though, warpflame strike is a completely different ability which prevents overwatch, praise the prince is a stratagem that lets you change the result on a charge die to 6 after rolling.

Emperor's children warptalons also have an 100% chance to successfully charge if you use the Vigilus Ablaze speciality formation, since the lowest you can roll with praise the prince + the warlord trait is 7 which is a successful charge with a +2 charge range buff.

This sounds like it has legs.. so 10 is 190 points and you get 31 attacks with rerolls to wound. So the idea would be drop them in, charge everything and try and wrap one guy/model to keep them alive for another turn. Which should be relatively easy to do since you dont need to worry about overwatch.

Nightlords do it better - not killing, but disabling and disrupting. We have come for you & Vox scream are two great abilities for talons, and they have 3d6+2" charges themselves. They tie in CC much better and can shut down auras (chapter masters, synapse, invuln bubbles, you name it). They can also, if they survive a turn, disengage 12" over their opponent into their backlines and charge again at a juicy target.

mrtomski wrote:

 Rydria wrote:

 Don Qui Hotep wrote:

 Rydria wrote:
Emperor's children warp talons absolutely demolish 1 wound chaff, due to the excess of violence buff that no longer puts a limit on how many attacks it can generate.

Deep strike them 9 away spread out as much as you can so you can charge as much of the enemy line as possible, cast prescience on them charge there entire army that is in range (they can't over watch due to warpflame strike) use praise the prince to almost guarantee the charge by changing 1 dice to a 6.

Once in combat with there entire chaff line, use veterans of the long war and excess of violence, try to stay in range of your daemon prince/chaos lord for the reroll of 1s.

31 attacks split between however many units you have charged 3 attacks each 4 on champion, 2+ with re-roll to hit, 2+ with re-rolls to wound.

Every kill generates an extra attack, if the chaff doesn't have at least a 5+ save they can just say goodbye to their screens.

I'm a big fan of Warp Talons, I run a unit of ten in most lists. Unfortunately Warptime doesn't work on units just coming out of deep strike, though - they weren't very playable until Vigilus Ablaze let you take the specialty formation. I drop a jump pack sorcerer in with the warlord trait that gives +2 to charge. I'm thinking of splitting them into two units of five, adding an extra FA option and running a Night Lords Outrider, to turn the 7 inch charge into a 5 inch charge. For me, warp talons were the big winners with Night Lords.

I didn't bring up the psychic power warptime at all though, warpflame strike is a completely different ability which prevents overwatch, praise the prince is a stratagem that lets you change the result on a charge die to 6 after rolling.

Emperor's children warptalons also have an 100% chance to successfully charge if you use the Vigilus Ablaze speciality formation, since the lowest you can roll with praise the prince + the warlord trait is 7 which is a successful charge with a +2 charge range buff.

This sounds like it has legs.. so 10 is 190 points and you get 31 attacks with rerolls to wound. So the idea would be drop them in, charge everything and try and wrap one guy/model to keep them alive for another turn. Which should be relatively easy to do since you dont need to worry about overwatch.

This is why I like night lords, you just have to tag as much as possible, preferably after you consolidate then spend 1 cp anf lock a load in combat. Plus Vox Scream might be the best strat in the game.

As for the max sized bike squad, would you advise putting flamers on them for a bit more punch against chaff? An additional 7 auto hitting Bolters plus another 7 from EC seems a bit brutal for the meager price of 12 points that will keep shooting every turn. Throw in a combiflamer on the champ and you also get an additional Bolter shot at bs 4+ and another 3.5 auto hit Bolter shots and seeing as how you were going to charge stuff anyways you want to be in flamer range.

Flamers aren't worth it. Just stick to the Combi-Bolters you already got.

mrtomski wrote:

This sounds like it has legs.. so 10 is 190 points and you get 31 attacks with rerolls to wound. So the idea would be drop them in, charge everything and try and wrap one guy/model to keep them alive for another turn. Which should be relatively easy to do since you dont need to worry about overwatch.

You just slaughter them, since every model you kill gives you an extra attack, so you keep attacking until you get really unlucky and fail your 2+ reroll to hit/wound or they all die.

So 11 ppm csm and 12ppm chosen... its the best power armor outside berserkers and noise boys have been in quite some time. I picked up chaos space marines to play with power armor csm... how are y’all using the chaos space marine squad kit?

 Rydria wrote:

mrtomski wrote:

This sounds like it has legs.. so 10 is 190 points and you get 31 attacks with rerolls to wound. So the idea would be drop them in, charge everything and try and wrap one guy/model to keep them alive for another turn. Which should be relatively easy to do since you dont need to worry about overwatch.

You just slaughter them, since every model you kill gives you an extra attack, so you keep attacking until you get really unlucky and fail your 2+ reroll to hit/wound or they all die.

190 pts. +3CP (plus sorcerer, plus daemon prince/lord) to kill 2x10 guardmen, for 80 pts.

 p5freak wrote:

 Rydria wrote:

mrtomski wrote:

This sounds like it has legs.. so 10 is 190 points and you get 31 attacks with rerolls to wound. So the idea would be drop them in, charge everything and try and wrap one guy/model to keep them alive for another turn. Which should be relatively easy to do since you dont need to worry about overwatch.

You just slaughter them, since every model you kill gives you an extra attack, so you keep attacking until you get really unlucky and fail your 2+ reroll to hit/wound or they all die.

190 pts. +3CP (plus sorcerer, plus daemon prince/lord) to kill 2x10 guardmen, for 80 pts.

190 points plus 3cp to prevent shooting for all the non vehicle units you are touching for a turn, and prevent any nasty overwatch. (Assuming night lord)

That seems pretty strong to me, imagine doing this on a tau gun line.

 p5freak wrote:

 Rydria wrote:

mrtomski wrote:

This sounds like it has legs.. so 10 is 190 points and you get 31 attacks with rerolls to wound. So the idea would be drop them in, charge everything and try and wrap one guy/model to keep them alive for another turn. Which should be relatively easy to do since you dont need to worry about overwatch.

You just slaughter them, since every model you kill gives you an extra attack, so you keep attacking until you get really unlucky and fail your 2+ reroll to hit/wound or they all die.

190 pts. +3CP (plus sorcerer, plus daemon prince/lord) to kill 2x10 guardmen, for 80 pts.

Yeah there's always turn 3 if you're still chewing on guardsmen!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

macluvin wrote:
So 11 ppm csm and 12ppm chosen... its the best power armor outside berserkers and noise boys have been in quite some time. I picked up chaos space marines to play with power armor csm... how are y’all using the chaos space marine squad kit?

I was just thinking that I might proxy some combi botler chosen with my csm. For 14 points that seems like a solid unit in a gunline list!

 small_gods wrote:

 p5freak wrote:

 Rydria wrote:

mrtomski wrote:

This sounds like it has legs.. so 10 is 190 points and you get 31 attacks with rerolls to wound. So the idea would be drop them in, charge everything and try and wrap one guy/model to keep them alive for another turn. Which should be relatively easy to do since you dont need to worry about overwatch.

You just slaughter them, since every model you kill gives you an extra attack, so you keep attacking until you get really unlucky and fail your 2+ reroll to hit/wound or they all die.

190 pts. +3CP (plus sorcerer, plus daemon prince/lord) to kill 2x10 guardmen, for 80 pts.

Yeah there's always turn 3 if you're still chewing on guardsmen!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

macluvin wrote:
So 11 ppm csm and 12ppm chosen... its the best power armor outside berserkers and noise boys have been in quite some time. I picked up chaos space marines to play with power armor csm... how are y’all using the chaos space marine squad kit?

I was just thinking that I might proxy some combi botler chosen with my csm. For 14 points that seems like a solid unit in a gunline list!

Dirt put cheap 20 Bolter shots... I like it! I am currently in the process of turning bolters into combibolters with a file and glue.

 small_gods wrote:
Yeah there's always turn 3 if you're still chewing on guardsmen!

Do you expect that gunline players are not going to protect their big pieces?

This is a tactical problem. Warp Talons can multi-charge without getting shredded by OW, they have fly, they have charge bonuses, they can fight twice and consolidate into shooting units. Guard players want you to get stuck on their screens and dump a bunch of power weapon attacks into 4pt models. It’s a complete waste of potential when you decide to follow their gameplan.

Yoyoyo wrote:

 small_gods wrote:
Yeah there's always turn 3 if you're still chewing on guardsmen!

Do you expect that gunline players are not going to protect their big pieces?

This is a tactical problem. Warp Talons can multi-charge without getting shredded by OW, they have fly, they have charge bonuses, they can fight twice and consolidate into shooting units. Guard players want you to get stuck on their screens and dump a bunch of power weapon attacks into 4pt models. It’s a complete waste of potential when you decide to follow their gameplan.

I think you've misunderstood what I was saying, you should be able to down 60-100 guardsmen in 2 turns or you're in trouble. One squad of RCC havocks should down 41 with a lord and 3 cp. Stick in the other 1850 points in a 2k list and there shouldn't be a screen turn 3. And if you tie up half of the tanks and artillery for a turn it should be game over for the guard player.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

macluvin wrote:

 small_gods wrote:

 p5freak wrote:

 Rydria wrote:

mrtomski wrote:

This sounds like it has legs.. so 10 is 190 points and you get 31 attacks with rerolls to wound. So the idea would be drop them in, charge everything and try and wrap one guy/model to keep them alive for another turn. Which should be relatively easy to do since you dont need to worry about overwatch.

You just slaughter them, since every model you kill gives you an extra attack, so you keep attacking until you get really unlucky and fail your 2+ reroll to hit/wound or they all die.

190 pts. +3CP (plus sorcerer, plus daemon prince/lord) to kill 2x10 guardmen, for 80 pts.

Yeah there's always turn 3 if you're still chewing on guardsmen!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

macluvin wrote:
So 11 ppm csm and 12ppm chosen... its the best power armor outside berserkers and noise boys have been in quite some time. I picked up chaos space marines to play with power armor csm... how are y’all using the chaos space marine squad kit?

I was just thinking that I might proxy some combi botler chosen with my csm. For 14 points that seems like a solid unit in a gunline list!

Dirt put cheap 20 Bolter shots... I like it! I am currently in the process of turning bolters into combibolters with a file and glue.

Nice, I have mk IV 30k alpha legionaires so their bolters already look kinda like combi bolters. Think I can get aways with it. Already stuck all my spare combi bolters on lords and aspiring champions!

Oh yeah maybe I meant to respond to the other poster.

I see the capabilities of WT as what you’re buying more than their CC attacks. You will still supporting units to remove screens, but shutting down VFC overwatch and locking up more expensive units is harder to put a price tag on. That’s a much better use than mulching Guardsmen.

macluvin wrote:
So 11 ppm csm and 12ppm chosen... its the best power armor outside berserkers and noise boys have been in quite some time. I picked up chaos space marines to play with power armor csm... how are y’all using the chaos space marine squad kit?

Mass assault list, as in Red corsair battalions 2x and a legion battalion for the big mean guns.
Recycling 10 man squads with equipment isn't that bad and with some sorcerer/ da Support neither too slow nor too brittle.

Ofc it's a skew list, but 60 csm for 660 pts isn't terrible and can hide a lot guns if need be.

So I’m gonna start a CSM army (even though I already have a space marine army) with the Christmas Battleforce set and I was wondering what the best build option for Terminators and Terminator Lords was?

Yoyoyo wrote:
Oh yeah maybe I meant to respond to the other poster.

I see the capabilities of WT as what you’re buying more than their CC attacks. You will still supporting units to remove screens, but shutting down VFC overwatch and locking up more expensive units is harder to put a price tag on. That’s a much better use than mulching Guardsmen.

I have only got to use WT against tau once but that is very fun. It's like an auto win button!

Qyleterys wrote:
So I’m gonna start a CSM army (even though I already have a space marine army) with the Christmas Battleforce set and I was wondering what the best build option for Terminators and Terminator Lords was?

Termites, either chainaxe+ cb. Or combiplas full squad.

Termite lord depends on your Legion/trait.

 small_gods wrote:

Yoyoyo wrote:
Oh yeah maybe I meant to respond to the other poster.

I see the capabilities of WT as what you’re buying more than their CC attacks. You will still supporting units to remove screens, but shutting down VFC overwatch and locking up more expensive units is harder to put a price tag on. That’s a much better use than mulching Guardsmen.

I have only got to use WT against tau once but that is very fun. It's like an auto win button!

My primary opponent is a Tau player and from experience, Warp Talons are the best counter to the gunline. I've been running a big blob with a single jumpack sorcerer for the specialist detachment warlord trait. The downside is that it's not really possible to get a reliable flank off, because without the aura you're still going for the 9 inch charge. Now with Night Lords that seems like it might be a better option.

Not Online!!! wrote:

Qyleterys wrote:
So I’m gonna start a CSM army (even though I already have a space marine army) with the Christmas Battleforce set and I was wondering what the best build option for Terminators and Terminator Lords was?

Termites, either chainaxe+ cb. Or combiplas full squad.

Termite lord depends on your Legion/trait.

Am I the only one that gets triggered when someone calls a Termi a 'Termite'? I mean... it's a longer abbreviation for no reason, and I've seen so many posts of "I'm going to take some termites, how would you field them".

Probably wouldn't bother me, except that a Termite is an actual unit all on its own. And I only ever started seeing termite being used -after- the termite model was created, it never used to be used. Back in my day.

Get off my lawn.

Niiru wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

Qyleterys wrote:
So I’m gonna start a CSM army (even though I already have a space marine army) with the Christmas Battleforce set and I was wondering what the best build option for Terminators and Terminator Lords was?

Termites, either chainaxe+ cb. Or combiplas full squad.

Termite lord depends on your Legion/trait.

Am I the only one that gets triggered when someone calls a Termi a 'Termite'? I mean... it's a longer abbreviation for no reason, and I've seen so many posts of "I'm going to take some termites, how would you field them".

Probably wouldn't bother me, except that a Termite is an actual unit all on its own. And I only ever started seeing termite being used -after- the termite model was created, it never used to be used. Back in my day.

Get off my lawn.

Autocorrect does that on phones- at least on Android

Warp Talons are best with Night Lords and it isn't even close. We Have Come For You and Vox Scream are incredibly good stratagems and you have Raptor Strike for the 3D6 charge as well. Emperor's Children might be marginally better in combat but they have far less utility.

saint_red wrote:
Warp Talons are best with Night Lords and it isn't even close. We Have Come For You and Vox Scream are incredibly good stratagems and you have Raptor Strike for the 3D6 charge as well. Emperor's Children might be marginally better in combat but they have far less utility.

My thoughts exactly, plus with points drops I've been testing an Alpha Legion Brigade and a Night lords outrider for buckets of CP, including 6 oblits and 10 warptalons!

7 inch charge on 3d6 also allows you to more often than not (adverage 12.5 inch charge) getall the way to juicy targets!

 small_gods wrote:

saint_red wrote:
Warp Talons are best with Night Lords and it isn't even close. We Have Come For You and Vox Scream are incredibly good stratagems and you have Raptor Strike for the 3D6 charge as well. Emperor's Children might be marginally better in combat but they have far less utility.

My thoughts exactly, plus with points drops I've been testing an Alpha Legion Brigade and a Night lords outrider for buckets of CP, including 6 oblits and 10 warptalons!

7 inch charge on 3d6 also allows you to more often than not (adverage 12.5 inch charge) getall the way to juicy targets!

Sounds decent! More power to anyone who makes a Brigade work. (Do you make it a specialist detachment?)

How about NL WTs in Daemonkin lists?

I can see Khorne benefitting from charge rerolls, and maybe Crimson Crown.

Nurgle will dig the various damage buffs, from Loci and spells.

Slaanesh can get extra hits from Locus of Grace, plus Locus of Swiftness means a Defiler or such will find it easier to join the charge.

Not sure about Tzeentch. Changeling aura can mitigate their squishiness, but it’s so slow, it’s not really going to happen. Boon of Chage and Gaze of Fate will be handy. Disc and Chariot heralds can keep up and get them to S5, which I guess will help when they’re countering Aggressor hell or trying to sandpaper like a Knight.

 lindsay40k wrote:

 small_gods wrote:

saint_red wrote:
Warp Talons are best with Night Lords and it isn't even close. We Have Come For You and Vox Scream are incredibly good stratagems and you have Raptor Strike for the 3D6 charge as well. Emperor's Children might be marginally better in combat but they have far less utility.

My thoughts exactly, plus with points drops I've been testing an Alpha Legion Brigade and a Night lords outrider for buckets of CP, including 6 oblits and 10 warptalons!

7 inch charge on 3d6 also allows you to more often than not (adverage 12.5 inch charge) getall the way to juicy targets!

Sounds decent! More power to anyone who makes a Brigade work. (Do you make it a specialist detachment?)

How about NL WTs in Daemonkin lists?

I can see Khorne benefitting from charge rerolls, and maybe Crimson Crown.

Nurgle will dig the various damage buffs, from Loci and spells.

Slaanesh can get extra hits from Locus of Grace, plus Locus of Swiftness means a Defiler or such will find it easier to join the charge.

Not sure about Tzeentch. Changeling aura can mitigate their squishiness, but it’s so slow, it’s not really going to happen. Boon of Chage and Gaze of Fate will be handy. Disc and Chariot heralds can keep up and get them to S5, which I guess will help when they’re countering Aggressor hell or trying to sandpaper like a Knight.

Yes I have devestation battery on AL brigade and host raptorial on NL outrider.

Here's the list:


Obviously the points are wrong but still should come in under 2k with CA 2019.

I used to joke that if they just gave us Horus heresy books for our codex/army rules I would be happy... and now we got 11 ppm tactical squads, all the forge world HH models (bar the HH terminators) and these specialist detachments almost seem suspiciously like the special Horus heresy Rites of War... if they made chosen like HH veteran squads and gave us the darn heresy terminator armor, I would be so happy. Especially since loyalists really didn’t need them what with their storm shields... still, this is probably as good as it is going to get until loyalists get another new shiny toy that does something stupid like reroll the entire armies hits for a turn or one shots a titan... or they accidentally buff a Xenos army to taudar levels again.

macluvin wrote:
I used to joke that if they just gave us Horus heresy books for our codex/army rules I would be happy... and now we got 11 ppm tactical squads, all the forge world HH models (bar the HH terminators) and these specialist detachments almost seem suspiciously like the special Horus heresy Rites of War... if they made chosen like HH veteran squads and gave us the darn heresy terminator armor, I would be so happy. Especially since loyalists really didn’t need them what with their storm shields... still, this is probably as good as it is going to get until loyalists get another new shiny toy that does something stupid like reroll the entire armies hits for a turn or one shots a titan... or they accidentally buff a Xenos army to taudar levels again.

Well we still don't have the hh legion traits and some of the vehicles are priced at drunken intern levels but yeah we're getting close.

Just give me my night raptors!

 grouchoben wrote:
Nightlords do it better - not killing, but disabling and disrupting. We have come for you & Vox scream are two great abilities for talons, and they have 3d6+2" charges themselves. They tie in CC much better and can shut down auras (chapter masters, synapse, invuln bubbles, you name it). They can also, if they survive a turn, disengage 12" over their opponent into their backlines and charge again at a juicy target.

Why not both?

Just take an air wing of hellblades for vox scream, it's easier to pull off/harder for them to shut down especially with the mobility. I actually think Emperors children have better warp talons and jump lords.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

mrtomski wrote:

 p5freak wrote:

 Rydria wrote:

mrtomski wrote:

This sounds like it has legs.. so 10 is 190 points and you get 31 attacks with rerolls to wound. So the idea would be drop them in, charge everything and try and wrap one guy/model to keep them alive for another turn. Which should be relatively easy to do since you dont need to worry about overwatch.

You just slaughter them, since every model you kill gives you an extra attack, so you keep attacking until you get really unlucky and fail your 2+ reroll to hit/wound or they all die.

190 pts. +3CP (plus sorcerer, plus daemon prince/lord) to kill 2x10 guardmen, for 80 pts.

190 points plus 3cp to prevent shooting for all the non vehicle units you are touching for a turn, and prevent any nasty overwatch. (Assuming night lord)

That seems pretty strong to me, imagine doing this on a tau gun line.

While it's fun to imagine boning those fish folk, kroot are criminal at 4ppm and with their pregame 7" scout your probably never touching anything worth while, and even if you somehow pile in and do, all their heavy lifting comes on flying platforms

 Red Corsair wrote:
*snip*

Why not both?

Just take an air wing of hellblades for vox scream, it's easier to pull off/harder for them to shut down especially with the mobility. I actually think Emperors children have better warp talons and jump lords.

*snip*

While it's fun to imagine boning those fish folk, kroot are criminal at 4ppm and with their pregame 7" scout your probably never touching anything worth while, and even if you somehow pile in and do, all their heavy lifting comes on flying platforms

You are missing a lot of the picture here. We Have Come For You means units with FLY cannot fall back. That is the whole point. It lets your otherwise extremely fragile Warp Talons grab any units without needing to tri-point and be completely safe from shooting in your opponent's turn. Additionally, NLs have access to a +1 to hit strat (Prey on the Weak) if they have greater leadership than the unit they are fighting. Because we are marines we have high LD and the NL legion trait effectively means that you win ties. The only armies that will have higher leadership than you will be Necrons and Orks with Mob Rule.

Let's recap. Night Lords bring the following to the table:

3D6 charge

Strat to turn off auras

Almost always available +1 to hit

Trap non-vehicles in combat

Fall back and charge

Legion trait that's kinda useful

Emperor's Children bring:

Turn one charge dice into a 6

Combat drugs - good but expensive and maybe better used elsewhere

Legion trait that's not useful

I can't really see how you can present the case that EC have better jump infantry. Their charge strat is actually lower odds to get you into combat than 3D6 is too.

saint_red wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:
*snip*

Why not both?

Just take an air wing of hellblades for vox scream, it's easier to pull off/harder for them to shut down especially with the mobility. I actually think Emperors children have better warp talons and jump lords.

*snip*

While it's fun to imagine boning those fish folk, kroot are criminal at 4ppm and with their pregame 7" scout your probably never touching anything worth while, and even if you somehow pile in and do, all their heavy lifting comes on flying platforms

You are missing a lot of the picture here. We Have Come For You means units with FLY cannot fall back. That is the whole point. It lets your otherwise extremely fragile Warp Talons grab any units without needing to tri-point and be completely safe from shooting in your opponent's turn. Additionally, NLs have access to a +1 to hit strat (Prey on the Weak) if they have greater leadership than the unit they are fighting. Because we are marines we have high LD and the NL legion trait effectively means that you win ties. The only armies that will have higher leadership than you will be Necrons and Orks with Mob Rule.

Let's recap. Night Lords bring the following to the table:

3D6 charge

Strat to turn off auras

Almost always available +1 to hit

Trap non-vehicles in combat

Fall back and charge

Legion trait that's kinda useful

Emperor's Children bring:

Turn one charge dice into a 6

Combat drugs - good but expensive and maybe better used elsewhere

Legion trait that's not useful

I can't really see how you can present the case that EC have better jump infantry. Their charge strat is actually lower odds to get you into combat than 3D6 is too.

Not the person you're talking to, but a couple things stand out here -

1) You list all the NL strats that improve the Warp Talons, but not all the EC ones. You missed out the one that gives you bonus attacks for every kill you make, for a start, which seems like it would murder hordes and pretty much any infantry screens. There's also the ability to get -3AP on some of your attacks, but not sure if that works out as worthwhile.

2) I can't remember the exact maths, but I'm pretty sure that the EC roll of an auto 6 works out as better odds of getting into charge range than 3D6. I think 3D6 gets you up to ~72%? and the auto6 gets you up to at least 83% (possibly higher, not sure how to work it out beyond that).

Edit - 3) You say the EmpChil legion trait isn't useful, but it's actually very useful for warp talons. Means that in the enemy turn, when the enemy fight back (especially if they're forced to remain in combat with tri or whatever), the warp talons get to attack first. Which means the enemy will get a bunch less attacks to throw back at them. Best defence is murder. Can save a lot of lives.

Night Lords seems more resilient and tactical, EmpChil seems more killy. (Edit - I wrote this before I realised about the legion trait. EmpChil is probably more resilient in combat because of it, but Night Lords may win out depending on what aura they shut off. Both situational.) I think both have their uses. I certainly think both are the most viable uses for jump troops out of all the current options.

Although if you're planning to use a lot of jump / assault units.... why not do what I do and take both? 2CP gets you two units into combat on turn 2. Just a thought.

the endless attacks strat I can see being FAQ'd very soon. I'm very sure the intention was to not generate attacks forever and I fully expect it to get the same cavaet as all other rules of it's type "these attacks can not generate more attacks"

Something I've been playing around with.

What if instead of being sneaky, we got khorney (and little metal)



This nets you 16cp.


Optional uses:
Spend 1 for Soulforged pack on the Lord of Skulls to get an advance and charge stratagem.

Extra relic for your warlord of your choice (Fleshmetal Exoskeleton would let the discordant regen 2 wounds per round.)

Mandatory uses:
- Daemonforge (use on your LoS going after your primary target)
- Tank Hunters (reroll wounds vs a specific vehicle)
- Dour Duty (worsen ap coming at one of your big boys by 1)
- Unholy Vigor (keep your boy in the 2nd wound brack sweet spot)


Notes
Daemonsmith could go to the warpsmith if you wanted to keep him safe, but your footprint for the aura would be much smaller, and likely only impact 2 LOS turn 1, and 1 thereafter. But if your opponent is shooting at your disco lord... they may have bigger problems.

What I Like About It
Everything is good at Shooting
Everything has Long Range
Everything has High Strength
Everything is good at CC
Everything is tough as nails
Have some sneaky mortal wounds
No single KLOS is more important than another, and due to how they degrade they are always dangerous
Lots of CP, with good ways to use it
Challenges your opponent in ITC. If they somehow kill more than you, then they are probably shooting your cultists. Makes secondaries outside of Headhunter also a little tricky.


What I Dislike
Low psychic presence
No Fly keyword
Cultists only are good for objective camping and screening
No LoS ignoring
Difficult to maneuver on the table top
Would be nice to fit in 1 sorc + 1 MoP

And...


Thoughts, comments? I am still brewing up Alpha Legion/Nightlords lists, but right now this concept is my favorite.

Great post saint red, my thoughts exactly. Honestly, termies seem better suited to EC than talons.

One of the biggest things nl bring is 1) very easy charge into 2) tying up units like riptides for a turn into 3) falling back in your turn 12" over units and charging again.

That combo is easy to do, tactically flexible and, really, can decide games on its own.

weaver9 wrote:
Something I've been playing around with.

What if instead of being sneaky, we got khorney (and little metal)

Spoiler:

Batallion - Iron Warriors
+Discordant (Daemonsmith)
+Discordant (technovenous mechadentrites)
+Cultists x3

Battalion
+Sorcerer/Master of Possession (use chaos familiar to give him warp time)
+Warpsmith
+Cultists x3

Superheavy
+Khorne Lord of Skulls x3
(Hades gatling, ichor)

This nets you 16cp.


Optional uses:
Spend 1 for Soulforged pack on the Lord of Skulls to get an advance and charge stratagem.

Extra relic for your warlord of your choice (Fleshmetal Exoskeleton would let the discordant regen 2 wounds per round.)

Mandatory uses:
- Daemonforge (use on your LoS going after your primary target)
- Tank Hunters (reroll wounds vs a specific vehicle)
- Dour Duty (worsen ap coming at one of your big boys by 1)
- Unholy Vigor (keep your boy in the 2nd wound brack sweet spot)


Notes
Daemonsmith could go to the warpsmith if you wanted to keep him safe, but your footprint for the aura would be much smaller, and likely only impact 2 LOS turn 1, and 1 thereafter. But if your opponent is shooting at your disco lord... they may have bigger problems.

What I Like About It
Everything is good at Shooting
Everything has Long Range
Everything has High Strength
Everything is good at CC
Everything is tough as nails
Have some sneaky mortal wounds
No single KLOS is more important than another, and due to how they degrade they are always dangerous
Lots of CP, with good ways to use it
Challenges your opponent in ITC. If they somehow kill more than you, then they are probably shooting your cultists. Makes secondaries outside of Headhunter also a little tricky.


What I Dislike
Low psychic presence
No Fly keyword
Cultists only are good for objective camping and screening
No LoS ignoring
Difficult to maneuver on the table top
Would be nice to fit in 1 sorc + 1 MoP

And...

Spoiler:

I wish Brass Scorpions were as good as LoS. I love my scorpion model so dang much. If the points would allow me to take one of those plus the two KLoS I would.

Thoughts, comments? I am still brewing up Alpha Legion/Nightlords lists, but right now this concept is my favorite.

I like it, lord of skulls is now a solid alternative to a knight. You'd struggle against flyer spam and dense terrain could be a problem but otherwise a tough list to deal with.

Couple of thoughts:

This isn't a CP heavy list, your main strats will cost 1 or 2cp and you can manage fine with none. Why not drop 3x cultists and upgrade a warpsmith to a 3rd lord discordant. Give him the master of soulforges will help 1st turn charges and draw fire from your daemonsmith LD.

Master of possession over sorcerer in this list. So many useful options!

Yeah, giving those three (three!) LoS have a 4++ is a major boost

 lindsay40k wrote:
Yeah, giving those three (three!) LoS have a 4++ is a major boost

That's the idea, though most likely due to map or deployment you rarely will be able to keep all 3 within 6" of a master of Possession. If only there was a way within the list to extend his aura.

But even then if you can give at least 2 the buff it gives your opponent a red herring to shoot the 3rd one instead. So during deployment you pair a warpsmith with the one who will be far out of the aura.

Couple that up with Dour Duty, and the flat heal 3 stratagems, you should hopefully be able to keep him alive.

I absolutely plan on using Psychic Familiar to swap Dark Hereticus powers around in place of smite (warptime, prescience, death hex, diabolic strength).

But the question I'm left with is what is better on the MoP: cursed earth and infernal power? (Reroll hits and wounds of 1 within 6") or sacrifice (hurt something to heal something within 18").

I like the idea of your opponent taking a lone KLoS down to it's last bracket then you heal it for 3 (stratagem) + 3(sacrifice) + d3 (warpsmith) +1 (infernal regeneration). Up to 10 wounds back is pretty tasty. But is it better than the reroll aura?

 small_gods wrote:

This isn't a CP heavy list, your main strats will cost 1 or 2cp and you can manage fine with none. Why not drop 3x cultists and upgrade a warpsmith to a 3rd lord discordant. Give him the master of soulforges will help 1st turn charges and draw fire from your daemonsmith LD.

I think this is worth exploring, I'd like to either fit in another Discolord, or maybe even a Dark Apostle to help protect one that is out of Master of Possession range. That being said I do plan on burning 5 or more cp a turn to make your rolls as reliable as possible. Anticipating rerolling psychic tests, and charges and advance rolls.

Also I was kind of going to aggressively screen with 3 cultists blobs while the others grab objectives/secondaries (like engineers).

It would be even better maybe to find points to include heldrakes. It would take care of the flyer issue and could shut down gunline artillary...

weaver9 wrote:

I think this is worth exploring, I'd like to either fit in another Discolord, or maybe even a Dark Apostle to help protect one that is out of Master of Possession range. That being said I do plan on burning 5 or more cp a turn to make your rolls as reliable as possible. Anticipating rerolling psychic tests, and charges and advance rolls.

Also I was kind of going to aggressively screen with 3 cultists blobs while the others grab objectives/secondaries (like engineers).

It would be even better maybe to find points to include heldrakes. It would take care of the flyer issue and could shut down gunline artillary...

I'd never go for engineers. It's too easy to denny you points with line of sight ignoring shoting. I've fallen for that trap a fee times myself!

You won't be able to build a list that is bulletproof to all counters but swapping a LOS for heldrakes could work. The footprint of the LOS makes usimg 3 and 3 LD difficult. You could go for:

3 Lord Docordants
Sorcerer
Master of possession

30 cultists

2 hellturkeys

2 LOS

 small_gods wrote:

weaver9 wrote:

I think this is worth exploring, I'd like to either fit in another Discolord, or maybe even a Dark Apostle to help protect one that is out of Master of Possession range. That being said I do plan on burning 5 or more cp a turn to make your rolls as reliable as possible. Anticipating rerolling psychic tests, and charges and advance rolls.

Also I was kind of going to aggressively screen with 3 cultists blobs while the others grab objectives/secondaries (like engineers).

It would be even better maybe to find points to include heldrakes. It would take care of the flyer issue and could shut down gunline artillary...

I'd never go for engineers. It's too easy to denny you points with line of sight ignoring shoting. I've fallen for that trap a fee times myself!

You won't be able to build a list that is bulletproof to all counters but swapping a LOS for heldrakes could work. The footprint of the LOS makes usimg 3 and 3 LD difficult. You could go for:

3 Lord Docordants
Sorcerer
Master of possession

30 cultists

2 hellturkeys

2 LOS

Also good points. Here's what I came up with:



This gives you 7cp to start, which isn't much.
I think I like the first list better so far.

But burning 240 points on cultists is a bummer if I don't use them (but they should have a purpose as a screen if nothing else)

Niiru wrote:

saint_red wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:
*snip*

Why not both?

Just take an air wing of hellblades for vox scream, it's easier to pull off/harder for them to shut down especially with the mobility. I actually think Emperors children have better warp talons and jump lords.

*snip*

While it's fun to imagine boning those fish folk, kroot are criminal at 4ppm and with their pregame 7" scout your probably never touching anything worth while, and even if you somehow pile in and do, all their heavy lifting comes on flying platforms

You are missing a lot of the picture here. We Have Come For You means units with FLY cannot fall back. That is the whole point. It lets your otherwise extremely fragile Warp Talons grab any units without needing to tri-point and be completely safe from shooting in your opponent's turn. Additionally, NLs have access to a +1 to hit strat (Prey on the Weak) if they have greater leadership than the unit they are fighting. Because we are marines we have high LD and the NL legion trait effectively means that you win ties. The only armies that will have higher leadership than you will be Necrons and Orks with Mob Rule.

Let's recap. Night Lords bring the following to the table:

3D6 charge

Strat to turn off auras

Almost always available +1 to hit

Trap non-vehicles in combat

Fall back and charge

Legion trait that's kinda useful

Emperor's Children bring:

Turn one charge dice into a 6

Combat drugs - good but expensive and maybe better used elsewhere

Legion trait that's not useful

I can't really see how you can present the case that EC have better jump infantry. Their charge strat is actually lower odds to get you into combat than 3D6 is too.

Not the person you're talking to, but a couple things stand out here -

1) You list all the NL strats that improve the Warp Talons, but not all the EC ones. You missed out the one that gives you bonus attacks for every kill you make, for a start, which seems like it would murder hordes and pretty much any infantry screens. There's also the ability to get -3AP on some of your attacks, but not sure if that works out as worthwhile.

2) I can't remember the exact maths, but I'm pretty sure that the EC roll of an auto 6 works out as better odds of getting into charge range than 3D6. I think 3D6 gets you up to ~72%? and the auto6 gets you up to at least 83% (possibly higher, not sure how to work it out beyond that).

Edit - 3) You say the EmpChil legion trait isn't useful, but it's actually very useful for warp talons. Means that in the enemy turn, when the enemy fight back (especially if they're forced to remain in combat with tri or whatever), the warp talons get to attack first. Which means the enemy will get a bunch less attacks to throw back at them. Best defence is murder. Can save a lot of lives.

Night Lords seems more resilient and tactical, EmpChil seems more killy. (Edit - I wrote this before I realised about the legion trait. EmpChil is probably more resilient in combat because of it, but Night Lords may win out depending on what aura they shut off. Both situational.) I think both have their uses. I certainly think both are the most viable uses for jump troops out of all the current options.

Although if you're planning to use a lot of jump / assault units.... why not do what I do and take both? 2CP gets you two units into combat on turn 2. Just a thought.

You're right that I missed the bonus attacks strat. It's only good against weak 1w models though. For instance, against Primaris it is a multiplier of 1.16 which is not efficient. If you are NL you can just take MoK to fight twice for 3CP which doubles your damage and is twice as CP efficient as the EC option.

The strat for -3AP is useless on a unit that's already -2AP. The strat is good for units like Noise Marines but that's not what we're talking about here.

The EC trait IS rubbish. You need to be multicharged for it to work which very rarely happens in 8th edition. Even then, the first unit that charges you will not have too much trouble with 1w 3+ models.

The best resilience is not murder. It's not getting shot. Any army you charge as EC will fall back and then pound your 19ppw models with shooting. This is not an option against Night Lords.

Finally, because you are Night Lords and you can pin screens in combat with you, you have effectively 2 fight phases to wipe a unit. EC only have one because your enemy is just going to fall back in their turn.

NL Warp Talons are significantly better than EC ones. EC have other strategies that they are good at but for pure raptor strike disruption style stuff NL have it in the bag.

Has anyone attempted to field a footslogging Alpha legion marine list yet?

Not Online!!! wrote:
Has anyone attempted to field a footslogging Alpha legion marine list yet?

I've played a list with csm, chosen and havocks on foot. But not pure footslogging marines.

The movement/deepstrike tricks are really useful and great for playing the mission. It's great to be able to brig down a min unit of marines turn 5 to grab that important objective.

 small_gods wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
Has anyone attempted to field a footslogging Alpha legion marine list yet?

I've played a list with csm, chosen and havocks on foot. But not pure footslogging marines.

The movement/deepstrike tricks are really useful and great for playing the mission. It's great to be able to brig down a min unit of marines turn 5 to grab that important objective.

Sorry. Not that familiar with chaos rules but does Alpha Legion have some special rule allowing T5 deep strike?

tneva82 wrote:

 small_gods wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
Has anyone attempted to field a footslogging Alpha legion marine list yet?

I've played a list with csm, chosen and havocks on foot. But not pure footslogging marines.

The movement/deepstrike tricks are really useful and great for playing the mission. It's great to be able to brig down a min unit of marines turn 5 to grab that important objective.

Sorry. Not that familiar with chaos rules but does Alpha Legion have some special rule allowing T5 deep strike?

Alpha legion has renascent infiltration, which allows you to remove a unit and deepstrike it next turn during the game. I don't know IF you are allowed to do that after turn 3, due to beeing a stratagem and codex / supplements taking precedent over rulebooks and FAQ's I'd assume that renascent infiltration does indeed bypass this due to beeing written AFTER the FAQ's however due to GW beeing GW you can argue either way.
That said AL has alot MORE shenanigans for movement.

Good question. I would be allowing it but not taking in RAW(especially as I haven't seen text). But neat ability if allowed. Thanks.

tneva82 wrote:
Good question. I would be allowing it but not taking in RAW(especially as I haven't seen text). But neat ability if allowed. Thanks.

I will later send it to you via PM.

It's also just infantry, the most devastating thing that can be moved by it, is of course, Havocs with reaper chaincannons.
Beyond that, CSM infantry is, not scary. Unless it's marked slaanesh.

Not Online!!! wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 small_gods wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
Has anyone attempted to field a footslogging Alpha legion marine list yet?

I've played a list with csm, chosen and havocks on foot. But not pure footslogging marines.

The movement/deepstrike tricks are really useful and great for playing the mission. It's great to be able to brig down a min unit of marines turn 5 to grab that important objective.

Sorry. Not that familiar with chaos rules but does Alpha Legion have some special rule allowing T5 deep strike?

Alpha legion has renascent infiltration, which allows you to remove a unit and deepstrike it next turn during the game. I don't know IF you are allowed to do that after turn 3, due to beeing a stratagem and codex / supplements taking precedent over rulebooks and FAQ's I'd assume that renascent infiltration does indeed bypass this due to beeing written AFTER the FAQ's however due to GW beeing GW you can argue either way.
That said AL has alot MORE shenanigans for movement.

I think we're all good tge faq rules are talking about a unit that is not set up on the battlefield at the start of the game. Renascent infiltration is for units that are already on battlefield like on wings of fire, more where they came from and tide of traitors there's no turn limitation.

What are people's thoughts on I am Alphrius? Can we generate from new AL warlord traits and if so it could be worth using on Terminator lord with lots of options?

It's not just the ability to kill that's so useful. You know what's the most common target for my da jump's generally after turn 1 and def after turn 2?

Grots.

Guess how scary unit of grots is?-) Albeit this isn't as good as da jump as it's turn delayed but I can come up with plenty of reasons to deep strike cheap units around even if it's not that killy.

On the contrary super killy units I generally want to keep on board doing killy stuff rather than spend turn in reserve.

To my knowledge I am alpharius refers to the dex traits?



Automatically Appended Next Post:

tneva82 wrote:
It's not just the ability to kill that's so useful. You know what's the most common target for my da jump's generally after turn 1 and def after turn 2?

Grots.

Guess how scary unit of grots is?-) Albeit this isn't as good as da jump as it's turn delayed but I can come up with plenty of reasons to deep strike cheap units around even if it's not that killy.

On the contrary super killy units I generally want to keep on board doing killy stuff rather than spend turn in reserve.

It's more defensive applicable due to the turn inbetween.
And sure , it has more uses to it.

I think it also makes your opponent carry on having to deepstrike screen. Even a unit of combi bolter chosen will down a key character or two if they get the chance.

That makes them more focused on survival and less focused on objectives. I think in a weird way, if you take out a few key units with oblits and the like. You can easily outscore with an AL list rather than attempting to table everyone.

Not Online!!! wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
Good question. I would be allowing it but not taking in RAW(especially as I haven't seen text). But neat ability if allowed. Thanks.

I will later send it to you via PM.

It's also just infantry, the most devastating thing that can be moved by it, is of course, Havocs with reaper chaincannons.
Beyond that, CSM infantry is, not scary. Unless it's marked slaanesh.

Obliterators arent scary ?

small_gods wrote:
What are people's thoughts on I am Alphrius? Can we generate from new AL warlord traits and if so it could be worth using on Terminator lord with lots of options?

You roll randomly for a warlord trait from codex CSM. But, when that character is killed you can choose any warlord trait for any character. You could use it to give your true warlord a second warlord trait during the game. IAA has no limitation what character you choose, and what warlord trait you can give him. Unfortunately you cant give him clandestine twice for -2 to hit

My question to you then is, Why do you need to move the oblits with Renascent.......

saint_red wrote:

Niiru wrote:

saint_red wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:
*snip*

Why not both?

Just take an air wing of hellblades for vox scream, it's easier to pull off/harder for them to shut down especially with the mobility. I actually think Emperors children have better warp talons and jump lords.

*snip*

While it's fun to imagine boning those fish folk, kroot are criminal at 4ppm and with their pregame 7" scout your probably never touching anything worth while, and even if you somehow pile in and do, all their heavy lifting comes on flying platforms

You are missing a lot of the picture here. We Have Come For You means units with FLY cannot fall back. That is the whole point. It lets your otherwise extremely fragile Warp Talons grab any units without needing to tri-point and be completely safe from shooting in your opponent's turn. Additionally, NLs have access to a +1 to hit strat (Prey on the Weak) if they have greater leadership than the unit they are fighting. Because we are marines we have high LD and the NL legion trait effectively means that you win ties. The only armies that will have higher leadership than you will be Necrons and Orks with Mob Rule.

Let's recap. Night Lords bring the following to the table:

3D6 charge

Strat to turn off auras

Almost always available +1 to hit

Trap non-vehicles in combat

Fall back and charge

Legion trait that's kinda useful

Emperor's Children bring:

Turn one charge dice into a 6

Combat drugs - good but expensive and maybe better used elsewhere

Legion trait that's not useful

I can't really see how you can present the case that EC have better jump infantry. Their charge strat is actually lower odds to get you into combat than 3D6 is too.

Not the person you're talking to, but a couple things stand out here -

1) You list all the NL strats that improve the Warp Talons, but not all the EC ones. You missed out the one that gives you bonus attacks for every kill you make, for a start, which seems like it would murder hordes and pretty much any infantry screens. There's also the ability to get -3AP on some of your attacks, but not sure if that works out as worthwhile.

2) I can't remember the exact maths, but I'm pretty sure that the EC roll of an auto 6 works out as better odds of getting into charge range than 3D6. I think 3D6 gets you up to ~72%? and the auto6 gets you up to at least 83% (possibly higher, not sure how to work it out beyond that).

Edit - 3) You say the EmpChil legion trait isn't useful, but it's actually very useful for warp talons. Means that in the enemy turn, when the enemy fight back (especially if they're forced to remain in combat with tri or whatever), the warp talons get to attack first. Which means the enemy will get a bunch less attacks to throw back at them. Best defence is murder. Can save a lot of lives.

Night Lords seems more resilient and tactical, EmpChil seems more killy. (Edit - I wrote this before I realised about the legion trait. EmpChil is probably more resilient in combat because of it, but Night Lords may win out depending on what aura they shut off. Both situational.) I think both have their uses. I certainly think both are the most viable uses for jump troops out of all the current options.

Although if you're planning to use a lot of jump / assault units.... why not do what I do and take both? 2CP gets you two units into combat on turn 2. Just a thought.

You're right that I missed the bonus attacks strat. It's only good against weak 1w models though. For instance, against Primaris it is a multiplier of 1.16 which is not efficient. If you are NL you can just take MoK to fight twice for 3CP which doubles your damage and is twice as CP efficient as the EC option.

The strat for -3AP is useless on a unit that's already -2AP. The strat is good for units like Noise Marines but that's not what we're talking about here.

The EC trait IS rubbish. You need to be multicharged for it to work which very rarely happens in 8th edition. Even then, the first unit that charges you will not have too much trouble with 1w 3+ models.

The best resilience is not murder. It's not getting shot. Any army you charge as EC will fall back and then pound your 19ppw models with shooting. This is not an option against Night Lords.

Finally, because you are Night Lords and you can pin screens in combat with you, you have effectively 2 fight phases to wipe a unit. EC only have one because your enemy is just going to fall back in their turn.

NL Warp Talons are significantly better than EC ones. EC have other strategies that they are good at but for pure raptor strike disruption style stuff NL have it in the bag.

I'm not trying to talk you out of using night lords, I like them a lot. But in the current game state you better actually kill things. 10 single wound marines are not durable at all, so I think it's a red heron if your trying to tie down too many things and if your already pouring resources and CP into a unit to get it into combat where it does it's job then I'd rather kill them because your not considering the plethora of rules out their that can unlock units without falling back. The obvious one is smite, then there relics and psychic powers, you also have to be aware of heroic interventions, warlord traits etc.

For me the best two parts of the Night lord boost were vox scream and the trait that makes an aura 1" but even those are dead abilities to some armies. Vox scream doesn't do much to Necrons, Tau, Guard, Nids, Eldar. Your basically taking that for Marines, which I agree is massive, especially in the current state of affairs but thats where I start to run the numbers, primaris with shock assault will EAT warp talons and it only gets worse if characters intervene.

That's why I like the idea of an air wing of helblades added to the others. You get the incredibly powerful vox scream and three strong fliers. You could stay pure nightlords and still be strong though of course.

EDIT Also I have to disagree with the remark that AP -3 is useless compared to -2. We just saw an entire space marine release where doctrines did literally just that and you can see how much of an impact 1 more AP can have. It's especially good for EC since they want more kills to fuel more attacks.

Not Online!!! wrote:
My question to you then is, Why do you need to move the oblits with Renascent.......

For the same reason you do it on RCC havocs. To get them somewhere where they can shoot something. Or to pull them out of melee, when they can fallback, and be more than 3" away from enemy models.

 Red Corsair wrote:
your not considering the plethora of rules out their that can unlock units without falling back. The obvious one is smite, then there relics and psychic powers, you also have to be aware of heroic interventions, warlord traits etc.

I don’t think an ability is useless just because counterplay exists.

At the end of the day, you aren’t going to win a game with a 95pt unit. The rest of your army will still have to contribute their piece.

saint_red wrote:


The strat for -3AP is useless on a unit that's already -2AP. The strat is good for units like Noise Marines but that's not what we're talking about here.

I'm not sure whether it's CP efficient, but it's certainly not useless. As others have said, the SM doctrine that added -1AP ended up being pretty powerful. You'd only use it against certain opponents. In fact it goes quite well with the extra-attacks stratagem which you also said wasn't very good because it only worked against hordes. Between these two strats you have one thats great against weak hordes and one thats good against elite units with saves. A nice varied toolbox.

saint_red wrote:

The EC trait IS rubbish. You need to be multicharged for it to work which very rarely happens in 8th edition. Even then, the first unit that charges you will not have too much trouble with 1w 3+ models.

No, you just have to be in combat for two turns, which with proper model placement is possible (and not really that uncommon). Or with Slaanesh allies (which as EC you can easily get).

saint_red wrote:

The best resilience is not murder. It's not getting shot. Any army you charge as EC will fall back and then pound your 19ppw models with shooting. This is not an option against Night Lords.

Finally, because you are Night Lords and you can pin screens in combat with you, you have effectively 2 fight phases to wipe a unit. EC only have one because your enemy is just going to fall back in their turn.

Warp Talons deepstrike (so not getting shot on turn 1 anyway) and turn off overwatch (so not getting shot turn 2 either). You have options as EC to lock enemies in combat, and unlike NL you always get to attack first (as you point out before, the enemy unit isn't going to have trouble killing 1w 3+ models in combat, so your NL talons will just die in the enemy turn to melee while the EC talons survive).


As I say, both are good, I have no intention of turning anyone off of NL warp talons (I plan to run them myself). But it's not as simple as "NL is the best, EC is worthless". EC is more likely to do more damage, and depending on the army is also more likely to survive longer. NL can be more tactical and shut down enemy characters and trap any infantry by themselves without needing careful placement or allies. Both can do work. Personally I prefer the NL option, but mostly for fluff reasons.

 Red Corsair wrote:


For me the best two parts of the Night lord boost were vox scream and the trait that makes an aura 1" but even those are dead abilities to some armies. Vox scream doesn't do much to Necrons, Tau, Guard, Nids, Eldar. Your basically taking that for Marines, which I agree is massive, especially in the current state of affairs but thats where I start to run the numbers, primaris with shock assault will EAT warp talons and it only gets worse if characters intervene.

I think you're underestimating the versatility of vox scream. Almost all armies rely on aura abilities.

You can stop tau declaring kayun, you can shut down strackan buffing up guardsmen and bullgryns, you can make Abbadon just a fancy daemon prince or same for gman, caul and azreal.

Also it will stop a lot of aura warlord traits like grudges and master of soulforges.

It only is useless against knights and crons as far as I can see.

 small_gods wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
Has anyone attempted to field a footslogging Alpha legion marine list yet?

I've played a list with csm, chosen and havocks on foot. But not pure footslogging marines.

The movement/deepstrike tricks are really useful and great for playing the mission. It's great to be able to brig down a min unit of marines turn 5 to grab that important objective.

I plan on making a fluffy 100% footslogging Alpha Legion army using only marines. I think the new abilities make it very possible. Combined with specialist detachments you can easily get 4-5 warlords running around, and if I am Alpharius procs correctly you can have a guy with 3 WLT (I am Alpharius, generic CSM one, and whatever they already have)the points drops made it a lot cheaper to do so too, I gained a whole extra squad or two and that was with running hammers on the lords.

The key I think is to abuse your shenanigans as much as possible. Terminators, chosen, havoc's, and obliterators are what I plan on being my bread and butter, along with jump pack lords and sorceror, and a dark apostle to provide buffs with a key firebase unit. All the strats are cheap, and the relics/WLTs give huge utility. Renascent Infiltration seems like it could be used every turn and with enough units to use it (heck even just 5 man csm squads with combiplas/plas) it could be a key strat for the army. Makes units like chosen have a lot more utility. I have a feeling if you just made your troops cultists and let your regular marines be chosen you could do a lot of damage with that ability, shunting units around the map.

I feel like alpha legions strength is it's infantry. All the abilities interact with them, and combined with mods and lack of good targets for AT weapons you can mess up your opponent's ability to use half his armory. Plus you can just deny the ability to target key units and can ambush units that drop in to pick off others, so even units like lascannon havoc's become very tough to stop, since you can do stuff like park a dark apostle next to them for -2 to hit or just use conceal, and then use VoTLW/endless cacophony to hit back on your turn. The key is to a have a ton of units that can pull that wombo combo, and then just ensure your opponent can't stop all of them. Yeah he may kill havoc's in the back, but can he kill Las havoc's, the chain cannon havoc's infiltrated in, the terminators and obliterators dropping in, and the renascent drop of 6 plas chosen all from going off?

The other strat is the sheer utility available in how you use the warlord traits and relics. Any event that let's you pick most of your stuff at the start of each game will make them nasty. Basically you make your true warlord Alpharius and make your specific relic one you know you'll always need, like hydras wail. Then at the start of the game look at the opponents list and decide if you need your terminator Lord to be a character sniper, Mindveil teleporting objective grabber with the ability to redeploy part of your army turn one, make him impossible to target with hit mods to conceal deepstriking units, etc etc. You can really tailor what the army does to a pretty crazy degree just based on how a few characters are loaded out.

I don't think it'll take top table, but it'll be a game to remember, that's for sure. At least, as long as you have cp to fuel it

Sounds like a fun challenge. Do you find you'd be able to fill out a brigade? How are you farming CPs?

 Red Corsair wrote:
*snip*

Niiru wrote:
*snip*

AP-3 is on a 6. It's not useful for Warp Talons. You are paying 1CP to upgrade maybe ~5 attacks from AP-2 to AP-3. That will get you maybe one extra wound against power armoured targets.

Tri-pointing from deep strike doesn't happen against good players.

Good players will not stand around and let you mince them in their turn. They will fall back and shoot you. In fact, even bad players will do this. Your EC are not getting to fight in your enemy's turn and as such their trait is not useful.

Nobody has seriously used Excess of Violence in the last two and a half years it's been available to us and that's not changing now. It's OK in a pinch but it's mostly not very good. NL +1 to hit is demonstrably good. Being able to fight twice from MoK strat is very good.

EC can't pin down FLY units.

 Red Corsair wrote:

For me the best two parts of the Night lord boost were vox scream and the trait that makes an aura 1" but even those are dead abilities to some armies. Vox scream doesn't do much to Necrons, Tau, Guard, Nids, Eldar. Your basically taking that for Marines, which I agree is massive, especially in the current state of affairs but thats where I start to run the numbers, primaris with shock assault will EAT warp talons and it only gets worse if characters intervene.

You are severely underestimating how good Vox Scream is. For example, it is incredible against Tau because you can turn off Saviour Protocols of the drone unit protecting a Riptide. You can turn off Orikan's +1 to RP and 5++ invuln save auras. Turn off advance + charge and morale immunity auras that an Ork Warboss gives. Turn off Painboy FnP auras. Turn Abaddon's Fearless and re-roll auras off. Turn off Synapse. Turn off Unquestioning Loyalty, morale immunity and +1 hit auras that the GSC HQs have. There is obviously incredible utility against the more aura heavy armies like Marines.

EC are not bad. Feel free to use EC Warp Talons if you want to but it is not the most competitive choice available to us.

saint_red wrote:

You are severely underestimating how good Vox Scream is. For example, it is incredible against Tau because you can turn off Saviour Protocols of the drone unit protecting a Riptide. You can turn off Orikan's +1 to RP and 5++ invuln save auras. Turn off advance + charge and morale immunity auras that an Ork Warboss gives. Turn off Painboy FnP auras. Turn Abaddon's Fearless and re-roll auras off. Turn off Synapse. Turn off Unquestioning Loyalty, morale immunity and +1 hit auras that the GSC HQs have. There is obviously incredible utility against the more aura heavy armies like Marines.

You've opened my eyes to that...thanks!

I'm thinking of NL airwing of 2x helltalons and a baledrake for this.

 Don Qui Hotep wrote:
Sounds like a fun challenge. Do you find you'd be able to fill out a brigade? How are you farming CPs?

It's something I'm still working on. I'm very new to chaos and have just finished the models I need for my first stab at a 2k list. Im not doing a brigade simply because I don't have bikes yet. If I can score some at a decent price they're definitely something to consider I'm sure. The brigade seems like a good way to go, thanks for the suggestion.

Plan in the meantime is 3 batallions to sustain all the CP spent on relics and devestation battery, but man do you lose a lot of points for actually killing stuff. The jump from cultists to barebones marine squads in troops is often enough to get another obliterator or most of the way to a havoc squad, which doesn't help.

I will be the first to admit that a smart player would probably just spam daemon princes/disco lords and then cultists and fire support units from there. That would definitely keep attention off of your havoc's, termis, etc. Fooled around with it a bit in battlescribe and it seems like a solid concept, I just don't know enough about the crazy daemon units to kit them out properly. If I was running my guys at a tournament, bare minimum I'd probably do would be switch to cultists. A barebones marine squad ain't bad (well, it is) but I think for 15pts more than a 10 man cultist squad it actually isn't much less durable what with -1 to hit, 3+ vs 6+, T4, and indifference to morale as long as it's not getting hit by smite or something. Worth doing math on perhaps when I get a chance.

I dunno, I think it'll be fun. Nothing is screaming to me I'm going to get tabled turn 1 but it'll definitely be a list that will lose the moment you screw up. There isn't much room for error when you have no cultists to absorb your mistakes. But I have other armies for serious play, this is more just to have as a painting project and try something out of my comfort zone gameplay wise. If it's not 100% efficient I'll live.

Did we really have someone say the Children Legion Trait was good? LOL

A airwing detachment of 3 Night Lord Heldrakes is mandatory I think. Not sure I'm gonna fit it in, but it's mandatory. Even well equipped armies won't be able to kill 3 in a turn, and that means shutting down auras.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Did we really have someone say the Children Legion Trait was good? LOL

A airwing detachment of 3 Night Lord Heldrakes is mandatory I think. Not sure I'm gonna fit it in, but it's mandatory. Even well equipped armies won't be able to kill 3 in a turn, and that means shutting down auras.

Been thinking about it and I just can't see heldrakes being playable still at 150ish points. I think an outrider of bikes and warptalons might be pretty decent for around the same points.

I have found the children trait is very useful in a few situations.

1. When I get charged by multiple enemy units. It saves me cp which is always nice.

2. When I charge with multiple "weak" squads to tie units up. I have had instances when I have charged enemy units with my base noise marines and my opponent has decided to stay in combat because falling back wouldn't do them much good which ment I got to fight first in combat. A prime example of this is guardsmen using strat to fire even while in cc with the hope of keeping me locked in combat through the turn so I cant charge his tanks.


I am NOT saying that the emporers children tactic is an amazing game changing trait. Far from it. But none of them are very good, I find chaos works best by playing off of their other strengths (soup, deamons helping like marked chaos marine deamon engines, picking nurgle because of their strat or slaanesh for theirs, that kind of thing). Alpha legion is definitely the best trait for chaos, but there are more things to think about than just a trait that only affects infantry and hellbrutes.

weaver9 wrote:


Also good points. Here's what I came up with:

Spoiler:

Super Heavy
Khorne Lord of Skulls x3

Airwing
Heldrake with Baleflamet x3

Patrol
MoP
Discordant
Cultists

I kind of figure if you're going to field 3 LoS you're kind of giving up on using a lot of CP anyways, unless you include an RC Battalion just for battery power.

This is the list I am going to test out for this concept this weekend, it's mostly for fun and a certain amount of 'screw it' with regards to winning/objectives. Basically I would just try to body block folks off of objectives and hope to kill a lot of stuff.

So with the idea that I will have very little CP (5), this list is designed to passive buff itself.

DP gives- re-roll 1s to hit
DP-WL gives - re-roll 1s to hit/1s to wound with ranged
LD gives - +1 to hit, +2" of movement

Most of the strats I foresee using: Iron Within, Iron Without, Dour Duty, Daemonforge, CP re-roll.

Guys I'm confused. Have we seen full leaks of the CSM point drops or just heard some of them? Battlescribe seems to have been updated to reflect some of these changes (210pt Abaddon etc) but daemon Prince doesn't seem to have dropped.
Is it only the winged version? So essentially the wings have got cheaper? I thought it was always 180ish with the wings.
And is it only vanilla Prince that dropped? Not the DG or TS ones?

Abaddon303 wrote:
Guys I'm confused. Have we seen full leaks of the CSM point drops or just heard some of them? Battlescribe seems to have been updated to reflect some of these changes (210pt Abaddon etc) but daemon Prince doesn't seem to have dropped.
Is it only the winged version? So essentially the wings have got cheaper? I thought it was always 180ish with the wings.
And is it only vanilla Prince that dropped? Not the DG or TS ones?

Full points have dropped.

Battlscribe has updated and patched in the right points for the DP (it's the wings that went down in price I think). There may still be an error or two kicking around.

DG and TS princes stayed the same (DG) or went up (TS).

So DP with wings and warp bolter is 183?

Abaddon303 wrote:
So DP with wings and warp bolter is 183?

CSM one should be 168, don't think that points drop has been put into BattleScribe yet.

Nice one thanks

saint_red wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:
*snip*

Niiru wrote:
*snip*

AP-3 is on a 6. It's not useful for Warp Talons. You are paying 1CP to upgrade maybe ~5 attacks from AP-2 to AP-3. That will get you maybe one extra wound against power armoured targets.

Tri-pointing from deep strike doesn't happen against good players.

Good players will not stand around and let you mince them in their turn. They will fall back and shoot you. In fact, even bad players will do this. Your EC are not getting to fight in your enemy's turn and as such their trait is not useful.

Nobody has seriously used Excess of Violence in the last two and a half years it's been available to us and that's not changing now. It's OK in a pinch but it's mostly not very good. NL +1 to hit is demonstrably good. Being able to fight twice from MoK strat is very good.

EC can't pin down FLY units.

 Red Corsair wrote:

For me the best two parts of the Night lord boost were vox scream and the trait that makes an aura 1" but even those are dead abilities to some armies. Vox scream doesn't do much to Necrons, Tau, Guard, Nids, Eldar. Your basically taking that for Marines, which I agree is massive, especially in the current state of affairs but thats where I start to run the numbers, primaris with shock assault will EAT warp talons and it only gets worse if characters intervene.

You are severely underestimating how good Vox Scream is. For example, it is incredible against Tau because you can turn off Saviour Protocols of the drone unit protecting a Riptide. You can turn off Orikan's +1 to RP and 5++ invuln save auras. Turn off advance + charge and morale immunity auras that an Ork Warboss gives. Turn off Painboy FnP auras. Turn Abaddon's Fearless and re-roll auras off. Turn off Synapse. Turn off Unquestioning Loyalty, morale immunity and +1 hit auras that the GSC HQs have. There is obviously incredible utility against the more aura heavy armies like Marines.

EC are not bad. Feel free to use EC Warp Talons if you want to but it is not the most competitive choice available to us.

I am not underestimating anything. I think it's a great strat, nowhere have I argued against it. Where I did argue was that somehow nightlords were the be all end all of warp talons. If your trying to edge out a competitive list I have a spoiler for you, your still never taking warp talons.

BTW your examples are a pretty big fever dream. Any Tau list I have faced has at least two commanders, so your not shutting down Kauyon or Montka. Further more, any tau list I have played in the last 12 months has tons of small drone units for exactly the reason your suggesting. It is a much bigger PITA to kill off all those 2-4 man drone teams hanging out in a chain in range of multiple units. I'd love to face an opponent green enough to only take one brick of drones near their riptide. BTW I chuckeled about the synapse, for one it hardly matters and again most nid lists accidentally have about 3 layers of redundant synapse because it's one so many units.

But I'll reiterate, vox scream is very good, but I disagree with the premise that it somehow is always good enough to merit building half your force around. Warp talons are cute and have an extremely powerful gimmick, but their still just 1 wound marines that cost 19ppm. The obvious, best choice for that strat is on a flier since you can get it into range turn 1 from anywhere which is why I think helblades have a lot of merit. I still think the best two legions are Iron Warriors and Alpha legion because they actually kill the enemy efficiently from range.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 small_gods wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:


For me the best two parts of the Night lord boost were vox scream and the trait that makes an aura 1" but even those are dead abilities to some armies. Vox scream doesn't do much to Necrons, Tau, Guard, Nids, Eldar. Your basically taking that for Marines, which I agree is massive, especially in the current state of affairs but thats where I start to run the numbers, primaris with shock assault will EAT warp talons and it only gets worse if characters intervene.

I think you're underestimating the versatility of vox scream. Almost all armies rely on aura abilities.

You can stop tau declaring kayun, you can shut down strackan buffing up guardsmen and bullgryns, you can make Abbadon just a fancy daemon prince or same for gman, caul and azreal.

Also it will stop a lot of aura warlord traits like grudges and master of soulforges.

It only is useless against knights and crons as far as I can see.

Straken can't buff bulgryn mate, but sure I guess if people are still tooling up Catachans in lists from 2 years ago, and I say that as a guard player with a massive 2nd edition sculpt catachan army, guardsmen are tissue paper currently. And again, vox scream is a solid strat, but correct me if I am wrong here but the enemy can also embark into a transport to avoid the debuff entirely, then simply step out and go to work.

Again, I want to get out from under this rock that has rolled onto my shoulders. Two things were discussed. I was playing devils advocate in regard to EC verse NL warp talons if your trying a raptoral host style list. Additionally I also don't think Vox scream is the best reason in itself to go night lords since you can easily splash it into better legions with an airwing.

For me a raptoral host warp talon list is more for flavor and fun and I think both NL and EC are solid choices and very fluffy. Personally since I think the build is mostly for fun I'd rather my warp talons actually kill thigs then play group hug and get murdered on the return attacks. I think EC are a far better blender in that regard.

I can't decide which legion i should take for obliterator.
AL have a best legion trait increase their survival but IW have a best stratagem to protect and improve their firepower. i think i should take them as IW, what do you think?

Off topic question:

Has anyone made use of a storm eagle or fire raptor? Any good for their points? Debating on how to transport my bezerkers.

kaiseric wrote:
I can't decide which legion i should take for obliterator.
AL have a best legion trait increase their survival but IW have a best stratagem to protect and improve their firepower. i think i should take them as IW, what do you think?

I'd probably go Alpha Legion. Surviving stuff means you get to use them on the next turn.

kaiseric wrote:
I can't decide which legion i should take for obliterator.
AL have a best legion trait increase their survival but IW have a best stratagem to protect and improve their firepower. i think i should take them as IW, what do you think?

Obliterators are the signature unit of IW, so you're good to go.

Sgt. Cortez wrote:

kaiseric wrote:
I can't decide which legion i should take for obliterator.
AL have a best legion trait increase their survival but IW have a best stratagem to protect and improve their firepower. i think i should take them as IW, what do you think?

Obliterators are the signature unit of IW, so you're good to go.

AL or IW. Whatever legion you go with, take a feculent gnarlmaw with you. You get +2 to cover for them. And you can fallback and still shoot/charge. Dont forget you can deepstrike the gnarlmaw for 1CP. Downside is you have to pick nurgle, so no double shooting.

weaver9 wrote:
Has anyone made use of a storm eagle or fire raptor? Any good for their points? Debating on how to transport my bezerkers.

Storm Eagle is great as long as it doesn't get blown up first turn, I haven't compared it's points since the CA drops though. You can put an entire Battalion in it if you want, I use it in World Eaters lists for fun, put 3x6 Berzerkers, Ex Champ and either a Chaos Lord or a DA in there.

 p5freak wrote:

Sgt. Cortez wrote:

kaiseric wrote:
I can't decide which legion i should take for obliterator.
AL have a best legion trait increase their survival but IW have a best stratagem to protect and improve their firepower. i think i should take them as IW, what do you think?

Obliterators are the signature unit of IW, so you're good to go.

AL or IW. Whatever legion you go with, take a feculent gnarlmaw with you. You get +2 to cover for them. And you can fallback and still shoot/charge. Dont forget you can deepstrike the gnarlmaw for 1CP. Downside is you have to pick nurgle, so no double shooting.

Alpha legion can fall back and shoot for a Cp, so that's a nice trick in their cap, not to mention theb3+ explosion ability should you kill a tank, since if you take some alpha legion they don't even have to be the ones that kill the tank, they just need to be there on the table.

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
Alpha legion can fall back and shoot for a Cp, so that's a nice trick in their cap, not to mention theb3+ explosion ability should you kill a tank, since if you take some alpha legion they don't even have to be the ones that kill the tank, they just need to be there on the table.

Also nice for Ambush, Hydra's Wail, and Conceal, AL + IW + flavor is the way I think. Playing around currently with AL/IW/RC list.

I can 2nd the oblits as nurgle next to the gnarlmaw. It's a crazy good setup for them and makes them very very very tough to kill. Plus as nurgle they can be healed with cp. Put a sorcerer or master of possession next to them and you have a 24" zone of serious pain. The only thing you have to worry about is mass small arms fire, and even then.....

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
Alpha legion can fall back and shoot for a Cp, so that's a nice trick in their cap, not to mention theb3+ explosion ability should you kill a tank, since if you take some alpha legion they don't even have to be the ones that kill the tank, they just need to be there on the table.

Also nice for Ambush, Hydra's Wail, and Conceal, AL + IW + flavor is the way I think. Playing around currently with AL/IW/RC list.

I think Night Lord might work better than RC simply for access to warp talon shenanigans, having around 7 night lord warp talons is almost an auto-win against typical gunline Tau lists, which I consider to be significantly better than getting extra 3 CP for a bunch of marines that will have zero influence on the game

Not to mention the ability to shut off auras and preventing falling back for night Lords. Night Lords + alpha legion looks like a very vicious combo, the only problem is finding the cp to fund everything and figuring out which WLT to take and what your 3 relics will be.

 small_gods wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:


For me the best two parts of the Night lord boost were vox scream and the trait that makes an aura 1" but even those are dead abilities to some armies. Vox scream doesn't do much to Necrons, Tau, Guard, Nids, Eldar. Your basically taking that for Marines, which I agree is massive, especially in the current state of affairs but thats where I start to run the numbers, primaris with shock assault will EAT warp talons and it only gets worse if characters intervene.

I think you're underestimating the versatility of vox scream. Almost all armies rely on aura abilities.

You can stop tau declaring kayun, you can shut down strackan buffing up guardsmen and bullgryns, you can make Abbadon just a fancy daemon prince or same for gman, caul and azreal.

Also it will stop a lot of aura warlord traits like grudges and master of soulforges.

It only is useless against knights and crons as far as I can see.

uh are we forgetting how vox scream works? You target one unit. Tau run more than one commander typically. It would literally do nothing vs tau.

footfoe wrote:
It would literally do nothing vs tau.

Wouldn't it turn off a unit's "For the Greater Good" ability so you could dive the Tau Lines with a 3D6 charge?

Wouldn't it turn off an Ethereal's Morale aura so Drones are testing on 6 LD?

I'm sure there's more.

I believe what he means is it turns off 1 units ability, the other 6 near said unit still have their abilities. And no it would not do much vs greater good. The way greater good works is all units within 6" of the target of the charge can fire overwatch. Vox scream would stop 1 of those units from firing overwatch, but if you used the vox scream on the target of the charge all others still get their gg ability. So in the end, kind of meh for that usage.

Azuza001 wrote:
So in the end, kind of meh for that usage.

Turning off a 250pt unit's Overwatch isn't exactly nothing, though. Especially in smaller games.

Hey guys so going to purchase some new models yo change my list a bit.

What do you think are our most compeative units? I'm most likely going to be iron warriors, alpha legion etc would be too much of a repainting task.

Having tried close combat deamon engines I've learned the hard way that it's a shooting meta at the mo.

I'm thinking oblits and chaincannon havoks are our best shooting. What compliments them? What other units or hqs have potential to be MVP?

Finally thinking of night lord detachment, what is a strong loadout for a jump pack hq?

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
Not to mention the ability to shut off auras and preventing falling back for night Lords. Night Lords + alpha legion looks like a very vicious combo, the only problem is finding the cp to fund everything and figuring out which WLT to take and what your 3 relics will be.

Have you heard of your lord an saviour; the RC battalion?

Honestly though, we now got an even bigger Toolbox, the issue is, though, that all our tools require ressources, that themselves take up slots for these tools.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

mrtomski wrote:
Hey guys so going to purchase some new models yo change my list a bit.

What do you think are our most compeative units? I'm most likely going to be iron warriors, alpha legion etc would be too much of a repainting task.

Having tried close combat deamon engines I've learned the hard way that it's a shooting meta at the mo.

I'm thinking oblits and chaincannon havoks are our best shooting. What compliments them? What other units or hqs have potential to be MVP?

Finally thinking of night lord detachment, what is a strong loadout for a jump pack hq?

1. Every squad that can maximize the Cacophony and votwl stratagems.And or Doublefighting and a guaranteed melee charge.
2. Unsurprisingly, altough i feel like the hybrid ones atm aren't too bad. Especially not the venomcrawler for 115 pts. (granted he seems more like a big distraction carnifex then anything else but he)
3. The usual susptects, of sorcerer, lord, in the case of Oblits some warlord traits and or the occaisional MoP. Havocs are allways the question how you deliver them and personally imo from my limited testing IW oblits, and AL havocs should be the go to way due to AL padding out the issues of the havocs (especially flimsyness and movement) whilest IW have just the best Obliterator unit in the game atm. that said. Corsair Khorne berzerkers can do surprisingly well. Lord discordants in pack format are also anything but pushovers and the lowered DP might become quite prevalent again.
Other than that, i'd imagine Noise marines MIGHT, make the cut in a EC list.
4. That is a good question, atm i run mine with a CB because i built him that way , i'd imagine though that if you can, running a Spitefull flames one or one with corresponding Relic might make for a good beatstick.

footfoe wrote:

 small_gods wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:


For me the best two parts of the Night lord boost were vox scream and the trait that makes an aura 1" but even those are dead abilities to some armies. Vox scream doesn't do much to Necrons, Tau, Guard, Nids, Eldar. Your basically taking that for Marines, which I agree is massive, especially in the current state of affairs but thats where I start to run the numbers, primaris with shock assault will EAT warp talons and it only gets worse if characters intervene.

I think you're underestimating the versatility of vox scream. Almost all armies rely on aura abilities.

You can stop tau declaring kayun, you can shut down strackan buffing up guardsmen and bullgryns, you can make Abbadon just a fancy daemon prince or same for gman, caul and azreal.

Also it will stop a lot of aura warlord traits like grudges and master of soulforges.

It only is useless against knights and crons as far as I can see.

uh are we forgetting how vox scream works? You target one unit. Tau run more than one commander typically. It would literally do nothing vs tau.

Yes because nobody brings shadowsun for t2 kayun. Or a large blob of drones that they hide out of LOS. It's not a perfect solution but if you spend t1 shooting small sheild drone units and fire warriors. T2 you can lock down a riptide and stop shadowsun using those rerolls.

I can see it being less useful against crons, knights and non covern dhukari. But otherwise great.

Not Online!!! wrote:


1. Every squad that can maximize the Cacophony and votwl stratagems.And or Doublefighting and a guaranteed melee charge.
2. Unsurprisingly, altough i feel like the hybrid ones atm aren't too bad. Especially not the venomcrawler for 115 pts. (granted he seems more like a big distraction carnifex then anything else but he)
3. The usual susptects, of sorcerer, lord, in the case of Oblits some warlord traits and or the occaisional MoP. Havocs are allways the question how you deliver them and personally imo from my limited testing IW oblits, and AL havocs should be the go to way due to AL padding out the issues of the havocs (especially flimsyness and movement) whilest IW have just the best Obliterator unit in the game atm. that said. Corsair Khorne berzerkers can do surprisingly well. Lord discordants in pack format are also anything but pushovers and the lowered DP might become quite prevalent again.
Other than that, i'd imagine Noise marines MIGHT, make the cut in a EC list.
4. That is a good question, atm i run mine with a CB because i built him that way , i'd imagine though that if you can, running a Spitefull flames one or one with corresponding Relic might make for a good beatstick.

I can see why alpha legion are strong for havoks, I'm kind of stuck with iron warriors though. One good thing is the legion trait I think would really help them, with only -1 ap cover is going to really reduce thier impact.

I guess the issue I have is being forced to take a rhino to keep them safe.

Not Online!!! wrote:
Honestly though, we now got an even bigger Toolbox, the issue is, though, that all our tools require ressources, that themselves take up slots for these tools.

I wonder if it's not better to organise into Brigades at this point. You're getting +2CP rather than +3CP but you're not using a detachment slot, and you have a lot more tools at hand to ensure you get some value out of your choices in the troops slot.

Yoyoyo wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
Honestly though, we now got an even bigger Toolbox, the issue is, though, that all our tools require ressources, that themselves take up slots for these tools.

I wonder if it's not better to organise into Brigades at this point. You're getting +2CP rather than +3CP but you're not using a detachment slot, and you have a lot more tools at hand to ensure you get some value out of your choices in the troops slot.

I think with 12 point chosen and 20 point spawn you're not loosing a lot to get those cp. As good as RC is, imo you can get more out of less hq choices, 15 chosen and 3 spawn.

You have to add the cost of your 3x CSM, so that means you're paying more than 400pts to farm 7CP.

Any decent brigade is going to have strong FA and Elite choices in the first place which aren't considered a tax. The advantage over RC is that your army is more coherent as your Troops choices can still be supported by Stratagems and support HQs.

Plus Cultists are back to 4 points. That's 3 per 1 Marine basically, and that will go a much longer way to hold objectives. 45 points saved is two Spawn and two Combi-Bolters.

For the NL shenanigans...thoughts on a jetpack chaos lord and 3x spawns in an outrider detachment on the cheap?

 Chewie wrote:
For the NL shenanigans...thoughts on a jetpack chaos lord and 3x spawns in an outrider detachment on the cheap?

Spawn aren't all that fast.

I'd go for bikes if you're planning on keeping it cheap and using the strats.

Night Lords host raptorials are probably gonna be pretty popular from here on out. A couple warp talon squads next to a same-mark herald or greater possessed will be putting out a LOT of +1S attacks. Pop in two heldrakes to get first-turn charges and proc vox scream and you've got a groovy alpha strike that can tie up a lot of shooting at once.

After that, you NEED a battalion. Whether that's iron warriors with cultists, obliterators, forge/maulerfiends, or khorne berzerkers with red butchers, or emperor's children noise marines for insane shooting, that's up to you. Hell take a red17 and a daemon detachment, whatever you wanna do.

Apparently Hellbrutes went down in points again..? Also, with the changes to Chaos Bastions, whats the current thinking on using them with a pair of havoc or oblit units? I believe they also went down in points.

Hellbrutes are still 60 points base without their wargear. So, I don't think they changed in points. They die easily but they are cheap and pack a punch when they get into close combat. Try for a threat overload and they might be ok as a second wave of attack. (No way they are getting into the first wave of attacks).

The defiler is a bit more expensive, but you get a far more durable daemon engine that shoots more, and is just as scary in close combat. Same for mauler fiend.

Its probably ok if you just want to stuff and max out your elite slots with hellbrute after having already used up all your heavy slots.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
We have too much stuff in our toolkits now. lol I find myself wanting to field 4 detachments so that I can have 4 separate legions. lol

Alpha legion and night lords are so good and fun to use now. But I also find myself wanting black legion because I want Abbadon. He is still a very solid anchor in an army, and he makes other legion cultists and troops all fearless. He goes very well with any number of chaos soup lists that feature two or three detachments of troops.

And then there is emperor's children, world eaters and Iron warriors. All have interesting stuff too. Emperor's children you can field either T5 terminators with 5+ FNP (from delightful agonies). or absolutely devastating 20 man noise marines also who are T5, 5+ FNP.

Iron warriors has some of the best synergies with daemon engines and obliterators. And with points coming down, an IW list can point out a lot of shooting.

World eaters got even more killy, but more importantly, they got a boost to their deployment and a warlord trait giving +1 to charge, and strategem allowing for consolidate 6 inches, and a reduction in points to zerkers. Depending on your opponent, we can even run zerkers without chain axes to save on points so that we can run even more zerkers. A massive wavefront of zerkers charging into the enemy is actually a very possible and fun list to play now. You can follow it up with a deep strike of WE raptors or warp talons who are all host raptorial for +2 charge.

If opponent is not ready for it, its very possible to table the opponent by turn 2 or 3. (Provided you survive the shooting of course) lol.

If you go chaos soup. You start having even more possibilities with WE. You can bring in another sorceror for warptime. So, turn 1, deploy zerkers 9 inch forward, then warptime a 20 man zerker unit a further 6 inches after it has already moved 6 inches. That would bring your 20 man zerker squad forward 21 inches. You are literally right infront of the enemy by then. Then you charge in, and then you fight twice...

By the time the dust settles, you probably wiped out all of the chaff, and fighting twice probably brought you into close combat contact with the enemy's second line, which is what you want to fight. Meanwhile, the rest of your army of zerkers are move advancing forward, and you have deep strikes waiting for turn 2 to come in. And your opponent is pushed right back into his deployment zone, with 20 zerkers in his lines to worry about, and not much chaff left.


And think about this other interesting fact now. a basic CSM now only cost 11 points. You could field 100 guys in power armor and they would only cost 1100 points lol. 5 CSM are easy to kill and usually no threat. But 100 CSM can double tap out 200 shots per turn and are gonna be an real pain to kill. This is not even factoring what legion traits and strategems can do to this 100 CSM in power armor lol.

And imagine having 12 squads of 5 man CSM running around claiming objectives, clogging up the midfield and tagging opponents. Those 60 CSM only cost 660 points. You still have 1340 points left to spend on whatever you want and you can still field 12 such squads of dudes. lol Even if the opponent can blow away 3 squads of CSM per turn, your 12 squads will still last you for 4 turns. And that's assuming he ignored the other 1340 points of your army? lol (I think he would have far more to worry about).

Also, consider that with hateful assault. A chainsword and pistol WE CSM will do 4 attacks on the charge, and only cost 11 points. Just a squad of 5 of them will punch out 21 attacks. lol

Here’s an idea to fill any generic CSM brigade.

- DA w/Disciples
- Smash Lord w/TH
- Smash Lord w/TH
- 2x10 Cultists
- 4x5 CSM squads
- Greater Possessed
- Greater Possessed
- 5x Warp Talons
- 2x5 Spawn

Stick a 5++ on the Spawn with the DA and march them up the board with the characters, use your WT to kill overwatch for T2 charges, control the backfield with your troops.

This will leave 1x Elite slot and 3x HS slots to fill with 2 free detachments. Drop the Smash Lords to customize and that’s 1203pts you can work with. It’s not a bad framework IMO. You’re basically just exchanging the Red Corsairs HQs for Greater Possessed in the Elites slot.

well, by the time you put in the three HS slots, you have basically used up half your army worth of points. So, you best make sure its a legion you want to run. And it means you only have two detachments left for at max two other legions. Might be more flexible to run two batalions and one more detachment. Then you get to run three legion soup without having to worry so much about fitting stuff you don't want to field into a brigade. I think its fine if you plan on running these stuff anyway.

I'm currently playing a possessed themed list with a number of characters to buff them. They're Alpha Legion more for the fluff and I've been running variations of Alpha legion lists for years. I emjoy the list, but it struggles late game and has very little fire power, I'm considering bikes for mobility, cost effectiveness, volume of shots and the ability to fall back in shoot. The dreads are pretty easy on points, but as mentioned, they're pretty soft. I really wish havocs were squad size 10.

With all the big point reductions, and the new stuff from faith and fury. Even a thematic possessed theme list has some teeth now.
Run one squad of 20 alpha legion elite noise marines which are slanaash.

Before deployment, use foward operatives to move forward 9 inches your 20 man noise marine and your possessed.

Turn 1, your noise marines move forward 6 inches. So they are now forward 15 inches from your frontline. Then use VOTLW, endless cacophony, whatever else you want to stack on them. Shoot twice with sonic blasters for 120 shots straight into enemy's chaff.

It should clear away most of the chaff for your possessed, which after moving up 6 inches, will also be 15 inches forward from your front lines to charge into their second line.

Now they got two options. Focus on your possessed, ignore the noise marines and eat another 120 shots turn 2, or shot up the noise marines, and have angry possessed charging into their lines turn 2. Either way is a win win cos never underestimate the combat power of noise marines either.

Especially if backed up by your other alpha legion characters.

With CSM at 11 pts. you can run two RC battalions with 6x20 CSM and 19CP. Each CSM unit has two plasma and a heavy weapon. Whenever a unit gets low on models simply play more from where come from for 3CP, and set up the unit up again, at full starting strength.

So one thing I like is the nurgle deamon powerfist.

It's basically a thunder hammer which wounds ANYTHING on a 2+ for 9 points. Seems like a great option for that NL host raptiorial jump lord...

 p5freak wrote:
With CSM at 11 pts. you can run two RC battalions with 6x20 CSM and 19CP. Each CSM unit has two plasma and a heavy weapon. Whenever a unit gets low on models simply play more from where come from for 3CP, and set up the unit up again, at full starting strength.

Spoiler:

++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Chaos - Chaos Space Marines) [53 PL, 8CP, 951pts] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

Detachment CP [5CP]

Legion [3CP]: Red Corsairs

+ HQ +

Chaos Lord [5 PL, 74pts]: Bolt pistol, Chainsword, No Chaos Mark

Sorcerer [6 PL, 88pts]: Bolt pistol, Force sword, No Chaos Mark

+ Troops +

Chaos Space Marines [14 PL, 263pts]: Mark of Slaanesh
. Aspiring Champion: Chainaxe, Combi-plasma
. 17x Marine w/ Boltgun
. Marine w/ Heavy or Special Weapon: Reaper chaincannon
. Marine w/ Heavy or Special Weapon: Plasma gun

Chaos Space Marines [14 PL, 263pts]: Mark of Slaanesh
. Aspiring Champion: Chainaxe, Combi-plasma
. 17x Marine w/ Boltgun
. Marine w/ Heavy or Special Weapon: Reaper chaincannon
. Marine w/ Heavy or Special Weapon: Plasma gun

Chaos Space Marines [14 PL, 263pts]: Mark of Slaanesh
. Aspiring Champion: Chainaxe, Combi-plasma
. 17x Marine w/ Boltgun
. Marine w/ Heavy or Special Weapon: Reaper chaincannon
. Marine w/ Heavy or Special Weapon: Plasma gun

++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Chaos - Chaos Space Marines) [53 PL, 11CP, 960pts] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

Battle-forged CP [3CP]

Detachment CP [5CP]

Legion [3CP]: Red Corsairs

+ HQ +

Chaos Lord [5 PL, 74pts]: Bolt pistol, Chainsword, Mark of Tzeentch

Sorcerer [6 PL, 88pts]: Bolt pistol, Force stave, Mark of Tzeentch, Prescience, Weaver of Fates

+ Troops +

Chaos Space Marines [14 PL, 262pts]: Mark of Slaanesh
. Aspiring Champion: Chainaxe, Combi-plasma
. 17x Marine w/ Boltgun
. Marine w/ Heavy or Special Weapon: Missile launcher
. Marine w/ Heavy or Special Weapon: Heavy bolter

Chaos Space Marines [14 PL, 268pts]: Mark of Slaanesh
. Aspiring Champion: Chainaxe, Combi-plasma
. 17x Marine w/ Boltgun
. Marine w/ Heavy or Special Weapon: Lascannon
. Marine w/ Heavy or Special Weapon: Plasma gun

Chaos Space Marines [14 PL, 268pts]: Mark of Slaanesh
. Aspiring Champion: Chainaxe, Combi-plasma
. 17x Marine w/ Boltgun
. Marine w/ Heavy or Special Weapon: Plasma gun
. Marine w/ Heavy or Special Weapon: Lascannon

++ Total: [106 PL, 19CP, 1,911pts] ++

Created with BattleScribe

Spoiler:

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Honest answer, as someone that actually HAS attempted mass CSM combat and now runs it again, 10 man squads are better, they are less likely to be wiped by moral , you also achieve a higher saturation of heavy weaponry.
That SAID.My prefered setup atm is 2 times RC battalion with 10 man squads and a AL unit of some kind for Votwl etc.
Also, pray that you don't run into marines because tac-1 ap doctrine is a pain in the ass for the list. Otoh, Apostle can do massive work in such lists as can sorcerers as can a CB lord. Sprinkle in some big guns and some havocs or cheap terminators and you get a quite amusing setup.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

mrtomski wrote:
So one thing I like is the nurgle deamon powerfist.

It's basically a thunder hammer which wounds ANYTHING on a 2+ for 9 points. Seems like a great option for that NL host raptiorial jump lord...

well except when you roll a 1 and have no access to doublefighting.

Not Online!!! wrote:

Honest answer, as someone that actually HAS attempted mass CSM combat and now runs it again, 10 man squads are better, they are less likely to be wiped by moral , you also achieve a higher saturation of heavy weaponry.

Spend 2CP to auto pass morale. 19 is plenty for a 3 turn game. 10 wiped out easily.

 p5freak wrote:
Spend 2CP to auto pass morale. 19 is plenty for a 3 turn game. 10 wiped out easily.

Any stratagem is vulnerable to getting Vect’d. You also can’t deal with snipers and artillery, you risk getting trapped in your DZ by fast assault armies or infiltrators, many armies can remove 20+ MEQ in a turn, your mobility is terrible if Warptime gets denied, you might not have enough focused offence to score tactical objectives, etc.

At the end of the day it’s a skew list, it forces your opponent to win or lose based on how they react. You might score some wins. But you don't have any tools to adapt once they’ve solved the problem of how to take it apart.

Not Online!!! wrote:
well except when you roll a 1 and have no access to doublefighting.

If you need a Khorne Beatstick, a Winged DP with Skullreaver is probably still your best option.

You could run a NL Brigade core and a Khorne Daemons det. Which also gives you cross-codex synergy with your WT and Greater Possessed.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ok, so I have a question about filling the NL Elites slot effectively.

If I have Plasma Termies with an Icon of Vengeance, and I use “Prey on the Weak” for +1 to hit, do they no longer take casualties on 1’s?

It’s also possible to mark them Slaneesh and get access to Cacophony.

Thoughts on running a Brigade...

With individual filler Spawn, Possessed, and GrPo getting price cuts, along with many of our beatsticks, it’s looking more viable. The question then becomes - what detachments get Specialist upgrades?

I can see the argument for the Brigade being the Host Raptorial. It’s got a bunch of HQs, who can be smashlords.

A Soulforged Pack or Devastation Battery works fine as a Spearhead. It only needs a Chaos Lord or Warpsmith. I can see arguments for an IW SP being a Brigade - you want to being them Cultists.

Also, there’s the question of Daemonkin. Hosts Raptorial love Khorne auras. Soulforged Packs love any daemon auras. Oblits love Nurgle auras - and, to a laser extent, Crimson Crowns and Flickering Flames. WB Possessed love most Slaaneshi and Nurgle auras.

Maining Word Bearers, myself, I’m pretty delighted that a company of massed Cultists and Heretacs seems to be useable. Probably going to build up my WE Host Raptorial and have it tango with Nurgle Daemonkin.

Nurgle Characters would do a lot for Warp Talons as well, all their damage pumps on 6+ go perfectly with Lightning Claws and Vets.

Not to mention the Nurgle fist hitting for 4 damage on Centurions.

I'm struggling to make a deamon engine list which I think would work.

I have a magnetized kytan, so sadly since he didn't get a points drop I think he will get some tracks and be a lord of skulls.

Good thing is I do think a lord of skulls with the new iron warrior stuff will have a much better chance of making it through the first couple of turns.

I was running some defilers, but to be honest they didn't serve me that well and I'm thinking if I keep them I'll make them gun platforms with twin Las.

Lord discordants are amazing, I have two already.

I guess my main issue with the deamon engines is they need a lord discordant baby sitter for the +1 to hit. I was thinking the iron warrior warlord trait to ignore the penalty for moving and firing heavy could mean a big mobile fire base moving up to close combat. The extra hit on a 6 WLT also seems good (I guess technically the same as +1 hit?)

Any ideas to help me avoid shelving these models? I have also got some oblits which seem mandatory now.

 cole1114 wrote:
Night Lords host raptorials are probably gonna be pretty popular from here on out. A couple warp talon squads next to a same-mark herald or greater possessed will be putting out a LOT of +1S attacks. Pop in two heldrakes to get first-turn charges and proc vox scream and you've got a groovy alpha strike that can tie up a lot of shooting at once.

After that, you NEED a battalion. Whether that's iron warriors with cultists, obliterators, forge/maulerfiends, or khorne berzerkers with red butchers, or emperor's children noise marines for insane shooting, that's up to you. Hell take a red17 and a daemon detachment, whatever you wanna do.

It's silly to assume Greater Possessed will be anywhere near a Warp Talon squad. If his rules for some reason explicitly stated he didn't affect Warp Talons, nobody would bat an eye.

mrtomski wrote:
Any ideas to help me avoid shelving these models? I have also got some oblits which seem mandatory now.

Defilers are very good at opening up Knights and other big targets in melee. Less so in shooting.

You’re probably better off running them with the Scourge so they’re cheap enough to achieve threat saturation. Pop smoke, run into a 4++ bubble from the MoP, survive, heal up with regen stratagems and then pop Daemonforge in CC on the next turn.

Yoyoyo wrote:

mrtomski wrote:
Any ideas to help me avoid shelving these models? I have also got some oblits which seem mandatory now.

Defilers are very good at opening up Knights and other big targets in melee. Less so in shooting.

You’re probably better off running them with the Scourge so they’re cheap enough to achieve threat saturation. Pop smoke, run into a 4++ bubble from the MoP, survive, heal up with regen stratagems and then pop Daemonforge in CC on the next turn.

So this was exactly what I was doing, but the issue was they would either get killed, or when they did make it into combat, not perform that well. The other issue I had with them is the large size of them meant moving around was a pain.

On paper they do look good, but in practice they just haven't worked that well for me, which is why I'm thinking having them backfield using the cannon and las might be better.

The contrast to a lord discordant is stark, a LD is a powerhouse in melee, doesnt rely on anything and is 4" faster.

If you want a big beatstick and have the points, deespstrike in Skarbrand.

So I just ran:

x2 disco
X3 lord of skulls
mop
Sorc

Against space wolf list (boy did they ever get a big points decrease).

Daemonsmith ended up making me just hit with all my shots on avg in play.

I lost 1 lord of skulls, but it blew up in the middle of his army, dealing +20 mortal wounds once all was said and done. Game was basically over at that point.

What I learned: important to find the right balance between buffing units, and killy units. This list naturally has 3 killy units but having something like a daemonprince would help.

Master of Possession Cursed Earth not as relevant as I was expecting due to move speed and aura ranges, but sacrifice was awesome.

Iron Warriors stratagems are exactly what I needed to make this list work. Only thing that would be better is an auto explode strat.

New list is going to drop one discordant in favor of a tzeentch daemon prince.

weaver9 wrote:
So I just ran:

x2 disco
X3 lord of skulls
mop
Sorc

Against space wolf list (boy did they ever get a big points decrease).

Daemonsmith ended up making me just hit with all my shots on avg in play.

I lost 1 lord of skulls, but it blew up in the middle of his army, dealing +20 mortal wounds once all was said and done. Game was basically over at that point.

What I learned: important to find the right balance between buffing units, and killy units. This list naturally has 3 killy units but having something like a daemonprince would help.

Master of Possession Cursed Earth not as relevant as I was expecting due to move speed and aura ranges, but sacrifice was awesome.

Iron Warriors stratagems are exactly what I needed to make this list work. Only thing that would be better is an auto explode strat.

New list is going to drop one discordant in favor of a tzeentch daemon prince.

I guess he didn't have much shooting? Would be interested to know how that list fairs against a gun line army. Why tzeentch for the DP?

 ArcaneHorror wrote:
If you want a big beatstick and have the points, deespstrike in Skarbrand.

Dont. If you want a beatstick use a FH DP with intoxicating elixir, diabolic strength, prescience, rapacious talons, ultimate confidence. Just dont roll a 1 for the talons.

mrtomski wrote:
So this was exactly what I was doing, but the issue was they would either get killed, or when they did make it into combat, not perform that well. The other issue I had with them is the large size of them meant moving around was a pain.

That’s a few different issues.

Defensively: They’re big so they can’t hide, they’re dangerous so they will get prioritized, and they’re T7 5++ so you should expect that they will get killed. So it becomes a distraction Carnifex. All you can do is give them defensive buffs (Cursed Earth, Smoke, Miasma, Stratagems) so they absorb more fire and keep them cheap to minimize points lost per model.

Offensively: Their attacks are high quality, maybe throw Diabolic Strength on one and then pop Daemonforge. 6x S18 AP3 attacks and 3x S14 AP2 attacks are pretty good man. But there are dice involved, you could do 4 damage as easily as 24. Lascannons aren’t going to make that problem go away. What you could do is improve their ability to land wounds with Prescience, Infernal Power, etc. Or use IW Tank Hunters to reroll damage results.

Footprint: This is a double edged sword, you can stop enemy movement but it will also stop yours. You can use Warptime to get one out of your way but physical model size is something you can’t change, you either have to take less (which will free up space) or play around it.

I dunno man. Maybe you are just expecting too much from them. If you’d rather have a more independent unit, Las Contemptors have BS2+ shooting. But of course you don’t get the CC capability, the ability to heal by any means, and any Daemon synergies like Cursed Earth, Infernal Power, 12 dmg hits with Virulent Blessing, etc.

mrtomski wrote:
I'm struggling to make a deamon engine list which I think would work.

I have a magnetized kytan, so sadly since he didn't get a points drop I think he will get some tracks and be a lord of skulls.

Good thing is I do think a lord of skulls with the new iron warrior stuff will have a much better chance of making it through the first couple of turns.

I was running some defilers, but to be honest they didn't serve me that well and I'm thinking if I keep them I'll make them gun platforms with twin Las.

Lord discordants are amazing, I have two already.

I guess my main issue with the deamon engines is they need a lord discordant baby sitter for the +1 to hit. I was thinking the iron warrior warlord trait to ignore the penalty for moving and firing heavy could mean a big mobile fire base moving up to close combat. The extra hit on a 6 WLT also seems good (I guess technically the same as +1 hit?)

Any ideas to help me avoid shelving these models? I have also got some oblits which seem mandatory now.

Gnarlmaws and Daemons of Nurgle. Poxbringers or flying Daemon Princes. Everything Advances T1, shooting with everything and doing extra damage on high Wound Rolls. Soulforged Pack makes T1 charges doable, especially with Warptime. Remember to make your low Advance rollers keep the Gnarlmaw within reach for a T2 repeat. Oblits love Gnarlmaws, too - effective 0+ save, and nigh impossible to shut down shooting. Nurgle Defilers quite like Heavy Flamers - it makes it difficult to deal with them with a counter-charge unit.

Maybe even Epidemius - he’s a nice choice to stand with a Plageubearer horde covering home objectives, and it doesn’t take much to get him to project army-wide DP coverage.

As an alternative - Slaaneshi Daemonkin can also work well. If a few Fiends join in a Maulerfiend & LD first turn charge, your opponent can end up in a LOT of trouble. Defilers are essential in this list as a 72” threat that neutralises the ability of a medium range gunline list to force you to Light Brigade down a long table. And this is of course fantastic for the Oblits.

If you really like DE dakka, Tzeentch can be fun. Flickering Flames, Daemonspark, Horrors, Changeling - there’s options.

Khorne is ok. Rerolling charges on a stampede is handy. Not as good as advance & charge, and Nurgle’s buffs.

Great info on the deamons thanks, only issue is los is locked to khorne, do you think crimson crown is worth it / brings khorne on par?

Previously I was looking at tznch for the changeling 6+++

mrtomski wrote:

weaver9 wrote:
So I just ran:

x2 disco
X3 lord of skulls
mop
Sorc

Against space wolf list (boy did they ever get a big points decrease).

Daemonsmith ended up making me just hit with all my shots on avg in play.

I lost 1 lord of skulls, but it blew up in the middle of his army, dealing +20 mortal wounds once all was said and done. Game was basically over at that point.

What I learned: important to find the right balance between buffing units, and killy units. This list naturally has 3 killy units but having something like a daemonprince would help.

Master of Possession Cursed Earth not as relevant as I was expecting due to move speed and aura ranges, but sacrifice was awesome.

Iron Warriors stratagems are exactly what I needed to make this list work. Only thing that would be better is an auto explode strat.

New list is going to drop one discordant in favor of a tzeentch daemon prince.

I guess he didn't have much shooting? Would be interested to know how that list fairs against a gun line army. Why tzeentch for the DP?

I think you should be able to hide your disco lord behind one or two of the LOS they are massive models with solid cover. Should help for a static gunline without loads of bastalisks.

mrtomski wrote:
Great info on the deamons thanks, only issue is los is locked to khorne, do you think crimson crown is worth it / brings khorne on par?

Previously I was looking at tznch for the changeling 6+++

I mean, you can make both work.

CC and Changeling auras don’t require a mono Daemons detachment, so as long as you’re not heavily relying on a charge reroll aura, sounds ok. Could be a decent Battalion with Pink Horrors, a Tzeentch Herald, and Nurglings.

CC can’t be carried by Karanak, and Khorne DP really wants a Skullreaver, and BT is not a support character, so it’s a Herald. Which is great - when LoS is at its angriest, it’ll be S5, which means the million attacks will not bounce off of anything. I’d recommend a Juggernaut if you’re going to Warptime the LoS - the extra 2” can make the difference for keeping within earshot. (Plus, a bit better survivability against all the snipers that recently got improved.)

It’s Nurgle and Slaanesh that get the really good perks for mono detachments, so no great opportunity cost.

 small_gods wrote:

mrtomski wrote:

weaver9 wrote:
So I just ran:

x2 disco
X3 lord of skulls
mop
Sorc

...Snip...

I guess he didn't have much shooting? Would be interested to know how that list fairs against a gun line army. Why tzeentch for the DP?

I think you should be able to hide your disco lord behind one or two of the LOS they are massive models with solid cover. Should help for a static gunline without loads of bastalisks.

To the first question (how many guns did he have?):



To the second (hiding discordants and tzeentch dp):