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Not Online!!! wrote:
I feel like the Forgefiend might start to become actually interesting now.

They're interesting units. They look a lot like a fire support Dreadnought from their shooting profile (ie. Butcher Contemptor) but their output is inferior due to their low BS.

Forgefiends are probably more of a replacement for a Rhino+CSM+Chaincannon -- they can move quickly onto an objective and still contribute some shooting downrange.

nah i didn't remove extremes. my calculations kinda like this, damage on the left number of results out of 200,000 times shooting a knight that came up on the right, ordered by that:

It factors in the random weapon dice and re-rolling them, so might be the reason 12 is a high occurring rate of damage as could be the average combo of like s8, -1, d1 etc

test 1


test 2


test 3

Yoyoyo wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
I feel like the Forgefiend might start to become actually interesting now.

They're interesting units. They look a lot like a fire support Dreadnought from their shooting profile (ie. Butcher Contemptor) but their output is inferior due to their low BS.

Forgefiends are probably more of a replacement for a Rhino+CSM+Chaincannon -- they can move quickly onto an objective and still contribute some shooting downrange.

That's the thing, Atm the full dakka (hades +ectoplasma) is 150 pts.
The dreads are still significantly cheaper, /(for that matter i count the twin butcher decimator as a dread, because it in essence is the hybrid dread.)and have still a better accuracy. However durability is something in the point of the forgefiend has.

I think there is now a place with the propper support from crimson crown or other such things like the changeling, for them replacing the dreads in some niche lists.
They are probably still too pricey for what they do, and i'd love a Hades autocannon on a plattform with Bs3+ like a predator, but now there can be a point potentially made.

Sadly the Hades AC drake still is not working.

I don't think Forgefiends are viable yet. The points reduction isn't enough to make them workable.

Forgefiends will be 128pts for Autocannons + Jaws after CA19.

You're not going to take them to replace Oblits but I think they have decent potential as midfield objective campers. They don't have alpha strike shooting potential, but if they spend 5 turns refusing to die while collecting VP and healing back up to their top bracket, that's a lot of value.

Man we can fit stuff in a 2k list, browsing the new CA..

Not Online!!! wrote:
So, what do people think about the dropped forgefiends and venomcrawlers?

I feel like the Forgefiend might start to become actually interesting now.

Champing at the bit to field a Spearhead of every single DE

If the LD can be kept alive, they’re definitely looking adequate

grouchoben wrote:I like the list except 310pts spent on dreads, that seems a bit indulgent! And a single disco lord with no help is alost pointless, unless I'm missing some new Iron Warriors shtick? It'll be cratered on T1. A rhino wouldn't go amiss too, to protect some of your precious havocs from indirect fire spam T1 ...

Fair points, I might want to end up getting a second disco lord once I figure out a good way to differentiate them.

Also 310 on dreads? It's 120 + 94 so 214 points I think?

Not Online!!! wrote:So you have a Blender Lord.
A blender DP.

ALOT of chaincannons.

2 Dreads, one of which is for melee

one squad of lascannons.
2 of Reapers.

It's a bit thin on screens imo.
And AT is a bit too reliant imo on CQC.
But with Votwl i can imagine that the reapers can do some aswell.

Good point on the lack of screens. I'm considering dropping the melee dreadnought for 20 more cultists, I just really like the model I have for the dreadnought right now.

I use a forgrfiend and 2 defilers in my khorne army. Stick them next to kharn and make a mobile walking / fire castle. If 1 gets separated due to movement i use the strat to reroll all failed hits and wounds. Makes a great setup with kharn giving full rerolls.

Wait decimators went down? I heard they were still 90?

Still 90.

Not Online!!! wrote:

Yoyoyo wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
I feel like the Forgefiend might start to become actually interesting now.

They're interesting units. They look a lot like a fire support Dreadnought from their shooting profile (ie. Butcher Contemptor) but their output is inferior due to their low BS.

Forgefiends are probably more of a replacement for a Rhino+CSM+Chaincannon -- they can move quickly onto an objective and still contribute some shooting downrange.

That's the thing, Atm the full dakka (hades +ectoplasma) is 150 pts.
The dreads are still significantly cheaper, /(for that matter i count the twin butcher decimator as a dread, because it in essence is the hybrid dread.)and have still a better accuracy. However durability is something in the point of the forgefiend has.

I think there is now a place with the propper support from crimson crown or other such things like the changeling, for them replacing the dreads in some niche lists.
They are probably still too pricey for what they do, and i'd love a Hades autocannon on a plattform with Bs3+ like a predator, but now there can be a point potentially made.

Sadly the Hades AC drake still is not working.

I think with the iron warriors daemonsmith wl trait and the insidium relic on a lord discordant you could make a decent castle with 3 forgefiends, MoP and lord discordant.

It'd only clock in at 690 points and put out a decent weight of fire. If you get powers off everything has 4++ and reroll 1s (hit and wound).

 small_gods wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

Yoyoyo wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
I feel like the Forgefiend might start to become actually interesting now.

They're interesting units. They look a lot like a fire support Dreadnought from their shooting profile (ie. Butcher Contemptor) but their output is inferior due to their low BS.

Forgefiends are probably more of a replacement for a Rhino+CSM+Chaincannon -- they can move quickly onto an objective and still contribute some shooting downrange.

That's the thing, Atm the full dakka (hades +ectoplasma) is 150 pts.
The dreads are still significantly cheaper, /(for that matter i count the twin butcher decimator as a dread, because it in essence is the hybrid dread.)and have still a better accuracy. However durability is something in the point of the forgefiend has.

I think there is now a place with the propper support from crimson crown or other such things like the changeling, for them replacing the dreads in some niche lists.
They are probably still too pricey for what they do, and i'd love a Hades autocannon on a plattform with Bs3+ like a predator, but now there can be a point potentially made.

Sadly the Hades AC drake still is not working.

I think with the iron warriors daemonsmith wl trait and the insidium relic on a lord discordant you could make a decent castle with 3 forgefiends, MoP and lord discordant.

It'd only clock in at 690 points and put out a decent weight of fire. If you get powers off everything has 4++ and reroll 1s (hit and wound).

if i would make a castle though and rely on only one discordant, i'd go with cladestine though.

Not Online!!! wrote:

 small_gods wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

Yoyoyo wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
I feel like the Forgefiend might start to become actually interesting now.

They're interesting units. They look a lot like a fire support Dreadnought from their shooting profile (ie. Butcher Contemptor) but their output is inferior due to their low BS.

Forgefiends are probably more of a replacement for a Rhino+CSM+Chaincannon -- they can move quickly onto an objective and still contribute some shooting downrange.

That's the thing, Atm the full dakka (hades +ectoplasma) is 150 pts.
The dreads are still significantly cheaper, /(for that matter i count the twin butcher decimator as a dread, because it in essence is the hybrid dread.)and have still a better accuracy. However durability is something in the point of the forgefiend has.

I think there is now a place with the propper support from crimson crown or other such things like the changeling, for them replacing the dreads in some niche lists.
They are probably still too pricey for what they do, and i'd love a Hades autocannon on a plattform with Bs3+ like a predator, but now there can be a point potentially made.

Sadly the Hades AC drake still is not working.

I think with the iron warriors daemonsmith wl trait and the insidium relic on a lord discordant you could make a decent castle with 3 forgefiends, MoP and lord discordant.

It'd only clock in at 690 points and put out a decent weight of fire. If you get powers off everything has 4++ and reroll 1s (hit and wound).

if i would make a castle though and rely on only one discordant, i'd go with cladestine though.

Yeah it's probably a little tougher to remove but you can have prepared positions and dour duty for a t7 13w 0+ lord discordant which is pretty funny.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also that's 156 shots with avenger gatling cannons or heavy burst riptide, which is nuts.

Yoyoyo wrote:
Still 90.

Then wouldn't it be 140 with two butcher canons? The reviews I watched hadn't mentioned butcher canons going down again.

Hellforged contemptor with twin butcher cannons is still 88+25+25=138.

 ph34r wrote:
I might want to end up getting a second disco lord once I figure out a good way to differentiate them.

Change the glaive for an Ork Nob or Killa Kan weapon, leave the face plate off one of the mechs, swap the backpack with a Possessed (who becomes an Icon Bearer), paint the Daemon skin a very different colour, use varied OSL

 lindsay40k wrote:

 ph34r wrote:
I might want to end up getting a second disco lord once I figure out a good way to differentiate them.

Change the glaive for an Ork Nob or Killa Kan weapon, leave the face plate off one of the mechs, swap the backpack with a Possessed (who becomes an Icon Bearer), paint the Daemon skin a very different colour, use varied OSL

Thats quite complicated. Simply paint the edge of the base in a different color.

 p5freak wrote:

 lindsay40k wrote:

 ph34r wrote:
I might want to end up getting a second disco lord once I figure out a good way to differentiate them.

Change the glaive for an Ork Nob or Killa Kan weapon, leave the face plate off one of the mechs, swap the backpack with a Possessed (who becomes an Icon Bearer), paint the Daemon skin a very different colour, use varied OSL

Thats quite complicated. Simply paint the edge of the base in a different color.

I'm a bit too on the OCD side to have one of my guy's bases not match.

I like your ideas lindsay40k, particularly the different lighting. Not sure how much OSL they will have but one could have red lenses and one could have blue lenses and such. Daemon engine and rider head swaps also seems good.

 ph34r wrote:

 p5freak wrote:

 lindsay40k wrote:

 ph34r wrote:
I might want to end up getting a second disco lord once I figure out a good way to differentiate them.

Change the glaive for an Ork Nob or Killa Kan weapon, leave the face plate off one of the mechs, swap the backpack with a Possessed (who becomes an Icon Bearer), paint the Daemon skin a very different colour, use varied OSL

Thats quite complicated. Simply paint the edge of the base in a different color.

I'm a bit too on the OCD side to have one of my guy's bases not match.

I like your ideas lindsay40k, particularly the different lighting. Not sure how much OSL they will have but one could have red lenses and one could have blue lenses and such. Daemon engine and rider head swaps also seems good.

I have 3 in a ghost theme.

One is normal.

Another has a chaos warrior shield like a knight and a third has a chaos barbarian Instrument and a shield on the other side whilest holding the glaive in a tentacle.


Simple,effective .

Any thoughts on running two big blobs of possessed? They clock in 17ppm which is only 1 more than an equivalent wound count of the newly costed plaguebearers and only 1.5 points per wound more than the 'old' plaguebearers. While it is fun to imagine all the juicy damage buffs that can be placed on the possessed the reality is most of the time it isn't necessary to have 6 damage possessed swinging around - as they mulch most of what they get into melee anyway? They are also now sitting post shock attack rule which is just gravy.

Thinking just straight alpha legion for the infiltrate and -1 to hit. Running a Term Lord and master of possession with vigilus detach - headhunter on the term lord and master of possession for the mortal wounds on 6. Put the alpha bolter on the term lord for rapid 2 5dmg -3ap 2dmg to snipe some chars... Cursed Earth goes off on a 7 but could potentially put them to a 4++.

Sprinkle in the remainder of the list a contorted epitome (slan detach for the advance and charge) and warptime somewhere (always good anyway) can be tough? As the possessed are the primary beatstick debating delightful agonies (CSM) and an exalted champ... With the points reduction to oblits and 'conceal' now being decent strat for them thinking of dropping in a x3 unit to round out the army and give some ranged threat... Also most buffs that focus on the possessed work for oblits (Delightful agonies, MOP spells, etc.)

This became a bit of a ramble and a classic case of stacking every buff on one unit and thinking how good it could (impractically) be - but TLDR thoughts on the reduced points for possessed - point per wound / damage and what is the minimum buffs necessary for them to be effective? Could they be competitive?

orkswubwub wrote:
Any thoughts on running two big blobs of possessed?

Yes, dont.

orkswubwub wrote:
Any thoughts on running two big blobs of possessed? They clock in 17ppm which is only 1 more than an equivalent wound count of the newly costed plaguebearers and only 1.5 points per wound more than the 'old' plaguebearers. While it is fun to imagine all the juicy damage buffs that can be placed on the possessed the reality is most of the time it isn't necessary to have 6 damage possessed swinging around - as they mulch most of what they get into melee anyway? They are also now sitting post shock attack rule which is just gravy.

Thinking just straight alpha legion for the infiltrate and -1 to hit. Running a Term Lord and master of possession with vigilus detach - headhunter on the term lord and master of possession for the mortal wounds on 6. Put the alpha bolter on the term lord for rapid 2 5dmg -3ap 2dmg to snipe some chars... Cursed Earth goes off on a 7 but could potentially put them to a 4++.

Sprinkle in the remainder of the list a contorted epitome (slan detach for the advance and charge) and warptime somewhere (always good anyway) can be tough? As the possessed are the primary beatstick debating delightful agonies (CSM) and an exalted champ... With the points reduction to oblits and 'conceal' now being decent strat for them thinking of dropping in a x3 unit to round out the army and give some ranged threat... Also most buffs that focus on the possessed work for oblits (Delightful agonies, MOP spells, etc.)

This became a bit of a ramble and a classic case of stacking every buff on one unit and thinking how good it could (impractically) be - but TLDR thoughts on the reduced points for possessed - point per wound / damage and what is the minimum buffs necessary for them to be effective? Could they be competitive?

I think if you're running 2 big units then you need to focus on offense potential. Sorcerer and master of possession are great buffs but there is so much potential to counter the buffs. I'd just go jump pack lord and exhalted champion for easy buffs. Word Bearers have the best stratergems for Possessed.

2+d3 attacks, 2 damage makes them insanely efficient against primaris stuff and a decent threat to armour. Biggest problem you'll face is geting clogged up on screen. You could take reaper chaincannon havocs or bikers to get them to the juicy targets.

AL forward operatives is great but situational, if you're playing someone with scouts, nurglings or phobos stuff they'll just deploy near your frontlines.

I am a huge fan of Possessed, as a Word Bearers fluff gamer, and I’m very reluctant to countenance a double horde thereof. The main benefit would be, in a metagame with 2W Infantry being more prevalent, and thus 2W weaponry being more prevalent, you’re not going to get the thing you’ve invested in deleted every time you lose T1.

If I were to attempt it, it would have to be:

- all Nurgle
- DK list with a Gnarlmaw for endless advance + charge, and Locus of Virulence, and Virulent Blessing
- strong arguments for DG - Blightbringer makes their Advances much more efficient, and Blades of Putrefaction & Putrescent Vitality makes them more punchy
- strong arguments for Word Bearers - the new strat, and also to bring along a Possessed Lord with Jump Pack and Axe Of You’re Not Allowed To Fall Back
- AL could work - less vulnerable if you lose T1, everybody's charging T1

I will be trying it at some point, in WB/DG/DoN lists that work as an amoeba, and in WB/DoN/DoS lists (love that Epitome and Enrapturess) that work as pincers (and probably bring a couple of Oblits units as well). It’ll be a bit garagehammer gimmick, and a lot of fluffy fun!

So helldrakes.. looking pretty damn good for 140 points right?

Can see people advocating nightlords... but apart from vox scream is there any other reason? Note you cant lock things in combat because they are vehicles.

mrtomski wrote:
So helldrakes.. looking pretty damn good for 140 points right?

Can see people advocating nightlords... but apart from vox scream is there any other reason? Note you cant lock things in combat because they are vehicles.

I personally don't see the benefit of running a 3x heldrake wing as night lords. Unless you are already planning on running 3x drakes anyway, and so running them as dedicated night lords wing costs you nothing. If you're just wanting to bring one drake (or two), youre better off just running them as your main legion and not trying to crowbar in another detachment. IMO, anyway. Vox scream is pretty good. Just not sure if heldrakes are good -enough- to try and build a quarter of your list around?


I actually came here to ask my own (somewhat related) question. What are the best chaos flyers at the moment? Is it the heldrake? How do the FW options stack up, now that they don't seem to be getting any points changes?

Fw didn't get changed and were worse then the drake

Not Online!!! wrote:
Fw didn't get changed and were worse then the drake

Really? Fair enough. The Drake never really grabbed me that much, as it's only role seems to be to charge into a unit turn 1 and then sit there. Doesn't have enough attacks to really do much, and a single baleflamer isn't that scary either. Even at 140 points it's a pretty expensive distraction. I guess it makes its worth by flying over the enemy screen and interrupting an elite unit, but the enemy can prevent that by just ... well, screening better lol.

I may be missing something, as I'm not very experienced with flyers in general (my game group never used to use them pre-8th). The damage output just seems very weak, compared to other options for that cost. Seems like it should have double the weapons for that size of frame. Or its claws should have more attacks, or higher strength, or higher AP. Seems very weak all round.

Niiru wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
Fw didn't get changed and were worse then the drake

Really? Fair enough. The Drake never really grabbed me that much, as it's only role seems to be to charge into a unit turn 1 and then sit there. Doesn't have enough attacks to really do much, and a single baleflamer isn't that scary either. Even at 140 points it's a pretty expensive distraction. I guess it makes its worth by flying over the enemy screen and interrupting an elite unit, but the enemy can prevent that by just ... well, screening better lol.

I may be missing something, as I'm not very experienced with flyers in general (my game group never used to use them pre-8th). The damage output just seems very weak, compared to other options for that cost. Seems like it should have double the weapons for that size of frame. Or its claws should have more attacks, or higher strength, or higher AP. Seems very weak all round.

The issue is, the special issue AC that the hellblade and talon got, got nerfed to s6 but also has the audacitiy to demand 20 pts.
And then there is the general pricehike on them from 7th to 8th on both variants of them.

Niiru wrote:

I actually came here to ask my own (somewhat related) question. What are the best chaos flyers at the moment? Is it the heldrake? How do the FW options stack up, now that they don't seem to be getting any points changes?

The chaos xiphon interceptor is the best flyer, IMHO. Make it nurgle, cast miasma of pestilence on it, -2 to hit. It hits everything at 3+, FLY on 2+. Negative hit modifiers can be countered by prescience. IW have some nice strats for it, heal 3 wounds, re-roll wound rolls, re-roll damage rolls. It can turn 180 degrees, and remain in your own deployment zone.