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Because it was 75 points versus 85.

With an extra body, it's 86 versus 85.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Because it was 75 points versus 85.

With an extra body, it's 86 versus 85.

Oh I did the math wrong my bad.

All good, no worries.

Ok, that doesn't surprise me, but how about if we're looking at CSM as screens, objective grabbers, and basically filling the role of cultists. I'm thinking purely alpha legion here, but I'm sure red corsairs could be argued for.

You're talking 5 marines at 55 vs 10 cultists at 40

Marines
+-1 to hit outside 12"
+Ability support, auras, etc.
+Better shooting
+Tougher against weak anti horde weapons that spam shots like punisher cannons
+Fairly immune to morale
-almost 1.5x more expensive
-way weaker to high AP weapons and MW

Cultists
+Cheaper
+More shots
+Better screen, especially against stuff like MW
-absolutely melt to anything
-cant really be relied on to do much unless in large nunbers
-weak to morale.

I don't know if the marines are better, or even equal, but you can probably make barebones squads useable as cheap troops for casual games at least. I don't feel like I'm completely hamstrung by taking them like i would've been a year or two ago.

 JNAProductions wrote:
For 75 points, you get 8 S4 AP0 D1 shots and 8 S5 AP-1 D1 shots, all at BS3+, at 24". (Assuming you stood still.)

For 85 points, they get 10 S4 AP-1 or AP-2 D1 shots, at BS3+, all at 30".

So, let's give our CSM player round 1, and an extra body (86 points total). They walk up, fire 5 shots at S4 AP0 and 8 shots at S5 AP-1.

Spoiler:

10/3 and 4 hits
5/3 and 8/3 wounds
5/9 and 4/3 failed saves
17/9 damage, or probably one dead Intercessor

Intercessors fire then, 8 shots.

16/3 hits
8/3 wounds
4/3 damage, or more than a dead CSM

Extrapolating from that, we can see the CSM will probably win. Their damage goes up as their accuracy does with the heavy weapon, and their last loss is the worst.

But an issue with that, is that that requires the SM player to play dumb. Deploy right at the line or near to it so you can walk forward and get shots T1.

A more disciplined NuMarine player might play it a different way. 5 Intercessors, 6 CSMs with a Chaincannon.

NuMarines move turn 1, activate Tactical Doctrine turn 2. Stand still, fire 10 shots at AP-2 from 30".

- 10 Bolt Rifle shots, 6 hits, 3 wounds, 1 save = 2 dead CSMs (4 remaining)

CSM move forward 6 inches, shoot back with Bolt Guns and the Chaincannon. Assuming all the guns are in range:

- 4 Bolt Gun shots, 2 hits, 1 wounds, 1 save = No wounds
- 8 Chaincannon shots, 4 hits (-1 to hit for moving with heavy weapon), 2 wounds, 1 save = 1 wound lost

Turn 3, the Intercessors stay where they are.

- 10 Bolt Rifle shots, 6 hits, 3 wounds, 1 save = 2 dead CSMs (2 remaining)

CSM stay where they are.

- 6 Bolt Gun shots, 3 hits, 1 wound, 1 save = whiff
- 8 Chaincannon shots, 5 hits, 3 wounds, 1 save = 1 dead Intercessor, 1 wound lost (4 remaining)

Turn 4, the Intercessors stay where they are.

- 8 Bolt Rifle shots, 5 hits, 3 wounds, 1 save = 2 dead CSMs (0 remaining)

This logic assumes average rolls on everything but the CSM saves, which would actually be worse. There's about a 33% chance the CSM squad is wiped at the end of Turn 3 shooting, and the NuMarines could use the Rapid Fire Stratagem turn 2 to guarantee it.

If the NuMarine player wanted to be tricky, the Intercessors would move back 6" turn 3 and use Steady Advance to shoot as if they hadn't moved. This would force the CSM player to move forward to return fire, further reducing the efficiency of the Chaincannon. This happens a lot in my games versus NuMarines, Intercessor squads positioned at just over 24" and falling back when anything closes in.

This gets worse with larger squads. Same scenario with 10x Intercessors versus 10x CSMs with 2 Chaincannons. Even with the extra heavy weapon, the CSMs still lose 4 models second and third turn and NuMarines lose about 3 Intercessors. Are 2 Chaincannons going to kill the 7 remaining Intercessors?

Not likely. The CSM player would be better off taking Plasma, but not too much better. You could throw Endless Cacophony in there to make it interesting, but NuMarines still win that scenario most of the time.

Keep in mind that 5 CSM can take a Reaper+Combi Plasma, or Plasma+Combi Plasma.

I'm going to assume that a 2x plasma squad will wreck intercessors within 12", and at least break even at 24", and of course lose at further ranges.

Intercessors are great at killing infantry at range, but they don't threaten monsters or vehicles. Plasma CSM do. Intercessors also get really inefficient when being shot by D2 weapons, even the humble (and cheap) autocannon.

So the question is, can the added utility of the CSM's plasma compensate for their lack of performance at range? And if not, how much are they falling short by?

If you pit just plasma CSM vs intercessors, the CSM clearly lose. What about a mix of plasma CSM and autocannon havocs? What if you add some vehicles on both sides?

Are there other reasons CSM aren't viable other than lack of efficiency when compared to Intercessors?

They don't get good Legion rules you seem to forget. For example, the moment you've gone Iron Hands or Raven Guard, they get a defensive boost that you can only get from Alpha Legion, or Imperial Fists with Ignore Cover + exploding hits, all on top of better Strats. 2CP gives those Bolt Rifles Rapid Fire 2, remember?

Chaos has NOTHING like that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ergo, you just go with the new 4 point Cultist to get your CP more efficiently. Otherwise you could go Red Corsairs, but as is they already give extra CP just for being Corsairs.

 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:
Keep in mind that 5 CSM can take a Reaper+Combi Plasma, or Plasma+Combi Plasma.

I'm going to assume that a 2x plasma squad will wreck intercessors within 12", and at least break even at 24", and of course lose at further ranges.

Intercessors are great at killing infantry at range, but they don't threaten monsters or vehicles. Plasma CSM do. Intercessors also get really inefficient when being shot by D2 weapons, even the humble (and cheap) autocannon.

So the question is, can the added utility of the CSM's plasma compensate for their lack of performance at range? And if not, how much are they falling short by?

If you pit just plasma CSM vs intercessors, the CSM clearly lose. What about a mix of plasma CSM and autocannon havocs? What if you add some vehicles on both sides?

Are there other reasons CSM aren't viable other than lack of efficiency when compared to Intercessors?

Eh. Someone can disagree with me here, but no - loading up on special weapons makes no difference. Autocannons are interesting because of the range but that doesn't make up for CSM's other downsides.

If you want to know how much something is "falling short," look at my posts above.

As far as vehicles go - a standard Repulsor gets about 36 shots per turn for around the cost of a Land Raider. CSMs don't have anything to compete with that.

My worst games versus NuMarines have been against Triple Repulsors, they can just sit near the middle of the board to create a no-man's land that just deletes infantry squads.

With respect techsoldaten, you've skewed the test in marines' favour there. Marines get to outrange, stand still and fire first, and apparently even use a strat? Well sure, if that's the way we figure this out, let's do a similar analysis!:

Both start in range of each other, out of cover. CSM with reaper win initiative, pop VotlW and cacophany, doing 7.8 damage in the first round of shooting.

Marines return fire killing a csm. CSMs fire again, wiping the squad. Yay CSM!

No,tech is right, from experience, you will get your face pushed in with mass csm against any form of numarines.

Even if you maximize heavy and special weapon slots, which you probably must anyways to Make the list work.
Only redeeming quality is that you can potentially use a melee squad to "no shortage" into advance and charge into melee and attempt to tie down parts of the frontline, that can work,depending on terrain and positioning.

You can make a case for alpha legion rubrics, combi bolter chosen, or csm with rcc or 2 plasma now.

Rubrics in cover lose less than one man in cover from 5 rapid firing ap-2 intercessors.

5 kill 1 intercessor in return. Both cost 85 points.

6 Cobi bolter chosen kill one intercessor.

5 rf ap-2 intersessors kill 1.5 chosen.

Plasma csm kill 1 intercessor. Rcc csm kill 1 csm.

Both lose 1.6 csm in retaliation.

All this only counts if you get within 24" which is much easier with forward operatives.

 JNAProductions wrote:
For 75 points, you get 8 S4 AP0 D1 shots and 8 S5 AP-1 D1 shots, all at BS3+, at 24". (Assuming you stood still.)

For 85 points, they get 10 S4 AP-1 or AP-2 D1 shots, at BS3+, all at 30".

So, let's give our CSM player round 1, and an extra body (86 points total). They walk up, fire 5 shots at S4 AP0 and 8 shots at S5 AP-1.

10/3 and 4 hits
5/3 and 8/3 wounds
5/9 and 4/3 failed saves
17/9 damage, or probably one dead Intercessor

Intercessors fire then, 8 shots.

16/3 hits
8/3 wounds
4/3 damage, or more than a dead CSM

Extrapolating from that, we can see the CSM will probably win. Their damage goes up as their accuracy does with the heavy weapon, and their last loss is the worst.

But an issue with that, is that that requires the SM player to play dumb. Deploy right at the line or near to it so you can walk forward and get shots T1.

I mean, it’s reassuring that in somewhat optimal conditions, it’s marginally in our favour, but if there’s no objective ect forcing Intercessors to press on then they have very little motivation to start within 30”

If they get first turn, it’s probably no fun for us at all

The fact that CSM damage output doesn’t deteriorate as much due to the one big gun is probably mitigated by the Intercessors gaining tac doctrine from T2

...actually, 17/9 is actually lower than 2, so the Intercessors have a better than coin flip chance of all surviving, and each time a Heretac dies, that numerator falls by 0.5, making 2D output more of a reach. Meanwhile, the Intercessors are easily capping a Heretac every turn.

I’m not feeling this at all tbh

 grouchoben wrote:
With respect techsoldaten, you've skewed the test in marines' favour there. Marines get to outrange, stand still and fire first, and apparently even use a strat? Well sure, if that's the way we figure this out, let's do a similar analysis!:

Both start in range of each other, out of cover. CSM with reaper win initiative, pop VotlW and cacophany, doing 7.8 damage in the first round of shooting.

Marines return fire killing a csm. CSMs fire again, wiping the squad. Yay CSM!

No. You are severely mischaracterizing the math.

I did not apply a Strat to the NuMarines shooting. I said they can guarantee an early wipe of the CSMs by applying a Strat. I did skew the math favorably towards CSM by assuming 1 save per turn. CSM have a 5+ save against AP-2 Bolt Rifles, realistically they fail all their saves with average rolling.

If you would like to understand the impact of VotLW, Endless Cacophony, and even Prescience against an Intercessor squad in any of the scenarios I described, go ahead. I didn't feel like writing it out. All of these combined make little difference unless you are doing all of them every turn (which costs a lot of CP.)

If you are going to do that, please also consider applying reroll auras from a Primaris Captain and a Primaris Lieutenant to the NuMarines. In the 5x6 and 10x10 scenarios, there's about a 20% chance the Intercessors wipe the CSMs in a single turn before the CSMs get to shoot. There's about a 75% chance the Intercessors wipe the CSMs in 2 turns while losing max 2 wounds.

In either case, when you start talking about buffs coming from other sources sources, NuMarines have a huge advantage. CSMs need to pay for VotLW and Endless Cacophony, they need to roll for Prescience, and each shot still only has about a 30% chance to wound.

Intercessors with proper reroll auras from HQs have about an 70% chance to cause a wound with each shot. No psychic test, no CP spent and, more importantly, those auras can buff multiple units. So, if it's 2 x 5x Intercessors, they get the same buffs, while 2 x 6x CSMs don't.

I'm not aware of any scenario where, point for point, CSMs consistently outduel Intercessors. Again, maybe you want to spell out the math to make your case.

"I did not apply a Strat to the NuMarines shooting. I said they can guarantee an early wipe of the CSMs by applying a Strat."

Eh? You mentioned strats, i mentioned strats. You gave sm 1st turn and preferable range, i did likewise.

That was really the sum total of my post, tbh...

 lindsay40k wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
For 75 points, you get 8 S4 AP0 D1 shots and 8 S5 AP-1 D1 shots, all at BS3+, at 24". (Assuming you stood still.)

For 85 points, they get 10 S4 AP-1 or AP-2 D1 shots, at BS3+, all at 30".

So, let's give our CSM player round 1, and an extra body (86 points total). They walk up, fire 5 shots at S4 AP0 and 8 shots at S5 AP-1.

10/3 and 4 hits
5/3 and 8/3 wounds
5/9 and 4/3 failed saves
17/9 damage, or probably one dead Intercessor

Intercessors fire then, 8 shots.

16/3 hits
8/3 wounds
4/3 damage, or more than a dead CSM

Extrapolating from that, we can see the CSM will probably win. Their damage goes up as their accuracy does with the heavy weapon, and their last loss is the worst.

But an issue with that, is that that requires the SM player to play dumb. Deploy right at the line or near to it so you can walk forward and get shots T1.

I mean, it’s reassuring that in somewhat optimal conditions, it’s marginally in our favour, but if there’s no objective ect forcing Intercessors to press on then they have very little motivation to start within 30”

If they get first turn, it’s probably no fun for us at all

The fact that CSM damage output doesn’t deteriorate as much due to the one big gun is probably mitigated by the Intercessors gaining tac doctrine from T2

...actually, 17/9 is actually lower than 2, so the Intercessors have a better than coin flip chance of all surviving, and each time a Heretac dies, that numerator falls by 0.5, making 2D output more of a reach. Meanwhile, the Intercessors are easily capping a Heretac every turn.

I’m not feeling this at all tbh

17/9 is pretty close to 2 wounds.

If you want more detailed numbers, anydice says...

You've got an 87% chance of doing one wound, 58% chance of doing two wounds, 29% chance of doing three wounds, and an 11% chance of doing four wounds.

Is there anything csm are good for apart from red coursairs cp?

I have 15 painted up, and 15 on sprue, but with the cultist point drop it feels like those are better value.

mrtomski wrote:
Is there anything csm are good for apart from red coursairs cp?

I have 15 painted up, and 15 on sprue, but with the cultist point drop it feels like those are better value.

Honestly,it's s just numarines that this severly punish regular csm.
Against nearly all other armies min csm are decently enough in ability.

Not Online!!! wrote:

mrtomski wrote:
Is there anything csm are good for apart from red coursairs cp?

I have 15 painted up, and 15 on sprue, but with the cultist point drop it feels like those are better value.

Honestly,it's s just numarines that this severly punish regular csm.
Against nearly all other armies min csm are decently enough in ability.

It's basically the same for most (possibly all?) armies right now.

Is your opponent Chaos/Daemons/Tau/Eldar/Delder/Necron/non-soup Admech? Then you're fine, it'll be a fun game.

Is your opponent Soup Imperium of pretty much any flavour? Most likely, the odds will be heavily against you. Doubly so if they're also IF or IH.

It does seem like GW are hoping to get enough space marine players, that they can just shelve all the other armies.

Niiru wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

mrtomski wrote:
Is there anything csm are good for apart from red coursairs cp?

I have 15 painted up, and 15 on sprue, but with the cultist point drop it feels like those are better value.

Honestly,it's s just numarines that this severly punish regular csm.
Against nearly all other armies min csm are decently enough in ability.

It's basically the same for most (possibly all?) armies right now.

Is your opponent Chaos/Daemons/Tau/Eldar/Delder/Necron/non-soup Admech? Then you're fine, it'll be a fun game.

Is your opponent Soup Imperium of pretty much any flavour? Most likely, the odds will be heavily against you. Doubly so if they're also IF or IH.

It does seem like GW are hoping to get enough space marine players, that they can just shelve all the other armies.

Actually my horde army did have quite the spike in wins after ca against everything except marines.
Where i before floated around 40% with it,because lets face it 60+ csm and other infantry like them is pretty much more fun then serious, i did hike up to about 50 .
Exception kicks in when i face any nu marines,there i dropped under 30% .

Roughly estimated,before and after ca and f&f in.

Which brings me to my main issue,i was all the way for a improvement of basic marines, but this,this is just stupid.
I also estimate that for a csm to compare fairly to a sm tac he'd need to be even lower atm at about 10 pts with the full kit to compensate for atsknf and doctrines. And that really is the crux imo.

And i for one think that at this point it would be just completely nuts especially in comparison to other factions.....

Not Online!!! wrote:

Niiru wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

mrtomski wrote:
Is there anything csm are good for apart from red coursairs cp?

I have 15 painted up, and 15 on sprue, but with the cultist point drop it feels like those are better value.

Honestly,it's s just numarines that this severly punish regular csm.
Against nearly all other armies min csm are decently enough in ability.

It's basically the same for most (possibly all?) armies right now.

Is your opponent Chaos/Daemons/Tau/Eldar/Delder/Necron/non-soup Admech? Then you're fine, it'll be a fun game.

Is your opponent Soup Imperium of pretty much any flavour? Most likely, the odds will be heavily against you. Doubly so if they're also IF or IH.

It does seem like GW are hoping to get enough space marine players, that they can just shelve all the other armies.

Actually my horde army did have quite the spike in wins after ca against everything except marines.
Where i before floated around 40% with it,because lets face it 60+ csm and other infantry like them is pretty much more fun then serious, i did hike up to about 50 .
Exception kicks in when i face any nu marines,there i dropped under 30% .

Roughly estimated,before and after ca and f&f in.

Which brings me to my main issue,i was all the way for a improvement of basic marines, but this,this is just stupid.
I also estimate that for a csm to compare fairly to a sm tac he'd need to be even lower atm at about 10 pts with the full kit to compensate for atsknf and doctrines. And that really is the crux imo.

And i for one think that at this point it would be just completely nuts especially in comparison to other factions.....

What CSM need is updated chapter traits, and something like Marks/Gifts/Veteran traits to bring them up to equivalent with Doctrines.

No, infact what I think needs to happen is a nerfbat to the sm knee, atleast and bare minimun against ih and if aswell as RG.
That is what needs to happen,because frankly it is only one matchup atm that is fethed this time for nearly all armies.

Not Online!!! wrote:
No, infact what I think needs to happen is a nerfbat to the sm knee, atleast and bare minimun against ih and if aswell as RG.
That is what needs to happen,because frankly it is only one matchup atm that is fethed this time for nearly all armies.

Honestly if you get rid of Super Doctrines it isn't terrible. I'm all for getting rid of most of the Strats, Warlord Traits, Relics, and Psyker powers.

Not Online!!! wrote:
No, infact what I think needs to happen is a nerfbat to the sm knee, atleast and bare minimun against ih and if aswell as RG.
That is what needs to happen,because frankly it is only one matchup atm that is fethed this time for nearly all armies.

SM got all these rules because SM infantry was worthless for the first 2 years of 8th. IH and Fists are over the top now, but in general the new SM rules have done a good job of making marines feel like marines, and they provide a lot of rule variety between different sorts of marines. IH and Fists should get a nerf, but the rest of the power imbalance should be fixed by moving other marines, including Chaos and GK, up to the same level. The imbalance with Xenos should then be fixed by points increases on some Marine units, as needed.

Other issues like Repulsor Executioners are their own can of worms that can be solved through points changes.

The solution is not to revert marine infantry back to being useless. Marine infantry should be the bulk of marine armies, not just some backfield troops supporting vehicles. That's not what Space Marines are.

 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
No, infact what I think needs to happen is a nerfbat to the sm knee, atleast and bare minimun against ih and if aswell as RG.
That is what needs to happen,because frankly it is only one matchup atm that is fethed this time for nearly all armies.

SM got all these rules because SM infantry was worthless for the first 2 years of 8th. IH and Fists are over the top now, but in general the new SM rules have done a good job of making marines feel like marines, and they provide a lot of rule variety between different sorts of marines. IH and Fists should get a nerf, but the rest of the power imbalance should be fixed by moving other marines, including Chaos and GK, up to the same level. The imbalance with Xenos should then be fixed by points increases on some Marine units, as needed.

Other issues like Repulsor Executioners are their own can of worms that can be solved through points changes.

The solution is not to revert marine infantry back to being useless. Marine infantry should be the bulk of marine armies, not just some backfield troops supporting vehicles. That's not what Space Marines are.

Space Marine troops had the exact same problems as CSM troops (and cult troops).

CSM got a 2 point cut, so did Noise Marines.

Space Marines got..... all kinds of bs.

CSM became... more balanced (still not good, but not terrible).

Space Marines broke the entire game.

Space Marines should have gotten a 2-point cut. And none of the doctrines / legion traits / super doctrines bs.

As it is now, Marines need to either have all their new toys removed (wont happen) or need to be increased in points ... by quite a lot. Like, significant bumps. 100 points per repulsor, 5+ points per infantry. Stuff that won't happen.

So the game is broken until either 9th Edition is released to reset everything, or until V3.0 of all the codices are released (assuming everyone gets SM treatment, which is unlikely).

GW dug a big ol' hole, and I'm really not sure how they're going to fix it. Best best is Chapter Approved 2020, but that's a long long time away.

Anybody do the math on a squad of night lords combi plasma chosen overcharging and using the prey on the weak strategem against primaris? I know it's effective but not sure about the whole "points efficiency " part of the equation.

Yoyoyo wrote:
We have our first post PA2, CA19 placing tourney list!

Event was Fight Before Xmas GT, list was a soup variation by TJ Lanigan that replaced Plaguebearers for Possessed and Nurglings.

Spoiler:

Alpha Legion Command

DA w/Benediction, MoS
DA w/Portent, MoN
MoP w/Cursed Earth, Infernal Power, MoN
18x Possessed w/Icon of Despair, MoN

Thousand Sons Command

Ahriman
DP w/Wings
DP w/Wings

Nurgle Daemons Battalion

Poxbringer
Poxbringer

Nurgling Swarm x3
Nurgling Swarm x3
Nurgling Swarm x3

PBC
PBC
PBC

Reinforcement points: 199

I’m not sure how the PBCs were included — since they are a DG unit, I guess he ran as Nurgle Faction and gave up the Daemons Codex Loci to take better vehicles. I’d guess the Possessed were buffed defensively with Miasma/Benediction/Cursed Earth to be -3 to hit at >12” and saving on a 4++, and were buffed offensively with Portent, VotLW, Virulent Blessing and Infernal Power to reroll their 1s and hit for double damage on 4’s. Cool concept and I will pat myself on the back because I thought Possessed were 100% viable! What I don’t get is the summoning, it’s most likely tied to the Slaneesh-marked Apostle. Contorted Epitome perhaps? Nonetheless...

Nicely done!

I am very curious about this. He keeps reinforcements at 200 points for flexbility. But most of the time, he just wants to summon in Slanaash daemons rights ? And the list is mainly a hero hammer, melee sort of list ? The PBCs are hard to remove, but its mainly the characters and the possessed that will do the majority of the damage? Does the list aim to demolish the opponent through melee? or win by objectives? He actually has a lot of psychic power too because of Arhiman and the two Tzeentch DPs. Or is it flexible enough to try and do both?

Eldenfirefly wrote:

Yoyoyo wrote:
We have our first post PA2, CA19 placing tourney list!

Event was Fight Before Xmas GT, list was a soup variation by TJ Lanigan that replaced Plaguebearers for Possessed and Nurglings.

Spoiler:

Alpha Legion Command

DA w/Benediction, MoS
DA w/Portent, MoN
MoP w/Cursed Earth, Infernal Power, MoN
18x Possessed w/Icon of Despair, MoN

Thousand Sons Command

Ahriman
DP w/Wings
DP w/Wings

Nurgle Daemons Battalion

Poxbringer
Poxbringer

Nurgling Swarm x3
Nurgling Swarm x3
Nurgling Swarm x3

PBC
PBC
PBC

Reinforcement points: 199

I’m not sure how the PBCs were included — since they are a DG unit, I guess he ran as Nurgle Faction and gave up the Daemons Codex Loci to take better vehicles. I’d guess the Possessed were buffed defensively with Miasma/Benediction/Cursed Earth to be -3 to hit at >12” and saving on a 4++, and were buffed offensively with Portent, VotLW, Virulent Blessing and Infernal Power to reroll their 1s and hit for double damage on 4’s. Cool concept and I will pat myself on the back because I thought Possessed were 100% viable! What I don’t get is the summoning, it’s most likely tied to the Slaneesh-marked Apostle. Contorted Epitome perhaps? Nonetheless...

Nicely done!

I am very curious about this. He keeps reinforcements at 200 points for flexbility. But most of the time, he just wants to summon in Slanaash daemons rights ? And the list is mainly a hero hammer, melee sort of list ? The PBCs are hard to remove, but its mainly the characters and the possessed that will do the majority of the damage? Does the list aim to demolish the opponent through melee? or win by objectives? He actually has a lot of psychic power too because of Arhiman and the two Tzeentch DPs. Or is it flexible enough to try and do both?

He's using the pbc to screen for the possessed and using the conceal stratergem so they can't be targeted. That way nobody can shoot the possessed or the thousand sons until they kill 3 pbc, which is not easy.

As for summoning he'll want different things for different situations. Sometimes contorted epitome to lock things in combat, sometimes flamers to kill an culexus. Sometimes a big bunch of plaguebearers to camp an objective. Sometimes a gnarlmaw to fallback and charge or advance and charge. 200-450 points is perfect for summoning flexibility.

I'll be bringing this my next game. Lots of psychic, can deal with fliers either through dakka or a daemon prince. Maybe can't deal with them well but hey. 12 cp isnt a ton for this list after some trial and error.

Cultists are basically there to screen deepstrike and grab objectives.

For those of you who play other armies, how would you take this list on?

It looks similar to those heavy IK lists mixed in with a little something else for objectives and such. So, kill off all the troops and play objectives would be my answer.

Then again, there are some lists which have so much damage they can take down three super heavies with no problems at all. You could do some math on how the list might fare against say a Ironhand castle. If it does well against that, it should do well in general against other harder lists as well.

Eldenfirefly wrote:
It looks similar to those heavy IK lists mixed in with a little something else for objectives and such. So, kill off all the troops and play objectives would be my answer.

Then again, there are some lists which have so much damage they can take down three super heavies with no problems at all. You could do some math on how the list might fare against say a Ironhand castle. If it does well against that, it should do well in general against other harder lists as well.

Do you have an example of what iron hands castles take? I dont have much experience vs space marines in general, but some guidelines (36 strength 8 shots rerolling 1s) would've amazing