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Not Online!!! wrote: I feel like the Forgefiend might start to become actually interesting now.
They're interesting units. They look a lot like a fire support Dreadnought from their shooting profile (ie. Butcher Contemptor) but their output is inferior due to their low BS.
Forgefiends are probably more of a replacement for a Rhino+CSM+Chaincannon -- they can move quickly onto an objective and still contribute some shooting downrange.
That's the thing, Atm the full dakka (hades +ectoplasma) is 150 pts.
The dreads are still significantly cheaper, /(for that matter i count the twin butcher decimator as a dread, because it in essence is the hybrid dread.)and have still a better accuracy. However durability is something in the point of the forgefiend has.
I think there is now a place with the propper support from crimson crown or other such things like the changeling, for them replacing the dreads in some niche lists.
They are probably still too pricey for what they do, and i'd love a Hades autocannon on a plattform with Bs3+ like a predator, but now there can be a point potentially made.
Sadly the Hades AC drake still is not working.
I think with the iron warriors daemonsmith wl trait and the insidium relic on a lord discordant you could make a decent castle with 3 forgefiends, MoP and lord discordant.
It'd only clock in at 690 points and put out a decent weight of fire. If you get powers off everything has 4++ and reroll 1s (hit and wound).
if i would make a castle though and rely on only one discordant, i'd go with cladestine though.
I had a very good experience running a castle of two Lord Discordants, a Master of Possession, a Forgefiend, Defiler, Venomcrawler, and two Greater Possesseds. The MoP packed Sacrifice and Infernal Power. It was later pointed out to me that redundant bonuses don't stack, and so I ended up splitting the Venomcrawler, MoP, Defiler, and Disco A into one blob with a single Greater Possessed, and one Disco and the Forgefiend into another. I had more flexibility. The DIsco B had a baleflamer and Forgefiend had the double autocannon loadout, which made them great for chewing through infantry chaff around Chimeras. I gave him the Warlord trait that gives an extra wound and 5++.
Re: differentiating Disco lords, I swapped out one's chainglave for the chainaxe from Shadowspear and added a pewter speartip to the top of it. I did a three-way swap between his backpack, a chaos lord, and the bony greater possessed. I gave him the grilled face from the new Abaddon sprue. There's enough differentiation from above and when you get close you can see the closer details as well.
What are peoples' experiences running groups of bikes? I have had success with them when loaded with plasma/combi-plasma for small units of heavy infantry, and am thinking of of running two units of flamer/combi-flamer for chaff clearing.
My painting log is full of snakes Have any retro, vintage, or out of print models? Show them off here! Games I play: 40k (CSM, Necrons); AoS/Fantasy (Seraphon/Lizardmen); Warcry; Marvel Crisis Protocol; Wargods of Olympus/Aegyptus; Mythos
Not Online!!! wrote: I feel like the Forgefiend might start to become actually interesting now.
They're interesting units. They look a lot like a fire support Dreadnought from their shooting profile (ie. Butcher Contemptor) but their output is inferior due to their low BS.
Forgefiends are probably more of a replacement for a Rhino+CSM+Chaincannon -- they can move quickly onto an objective and still contribute some shooting downrange.
That's the thing, Atm the full dakka (hades +ectoplasma) is 150 pts.
The dreads are still significantly cheaper, /(for that matter i count the twin butcher decimator as a dread, because it in essence is the hybrid dread.)and have still a better accuracy. However durability is something in the point of the forgefiend has.
I think there is now a place with the propper support from crimson crown or other such things like the changeling, for them replacing the dreads in some niche lists.
They are probably still too pricey for what they do, and i'd love a Hades autocannon on a plattform with Bs3+ like a predator, but now there can be a point potentially made.
Sadly the Hades AC drake still is not working.
I think with the iron warriors daemonsmith wl trait and the insidium relic on a lord discordant you could make a decent castle with 3 forgefiends, MoP and lord discordant.
It'd only clock in at 690 points and put out a decent weight of fire. If you get powers off everything has 4++ and reroll 1s (hit and wound).
if i would make a castle though and rely on only one discordant, i'd go with cladestine though.
I had a very good experience running a castle of two Lord Discordants, a Master of Possession, a Forgefiend, Defiler, Venomcrawler, and two Greater Possesseds. The MoP packed Sacrifice and Infernal Power. It was later pointed out to me that redundant bonuses don't stack, and so I ended up splitting the Venomcrawler, MoP, Defiler, and Disco A into one blob with a single Greater Possessed, and one Disco and the Forgefiend into another. I had more flexibility. The DIsco B had a baleflamer and Forgefiend had the double autocannon loadout, which made them great for chewing through infantry chaff around Chimeras. I gave him the Warlord trait that gives an extra wound and 5++.
Re: differentiating Disco lords, I swapped out one's chainglave for the chainaxe from Shadowspear and added a pewter speartip to the top of it. I did a three-way swap between his backpack, a chaos lord, and the bony greater possessed. I gave him the grilled face from the new Abaddon sprue. There's enough differentiation from above and when you get close you can see the closer details as well.
What are peoples' experiences running groups of bikes? I have had success with them when loaded with plasma/combi-plasma for small units of heavy infantry, and am thinking of of running two units of flamer/combi-flamer for chaff clearing.
Just straight up combi bolter and extra combi bolter on champion is way to go imo. They always get bolter discipline so you can hold an objective and clear a screen faily successfully and they're useful as a relatively cheap screen (if you place them sideways, roadblock style) for 23 points each.
Maxed bike squads are actually sweet. 9 dudes with chainswords, combi-bolter on the champ and if you have the points chuck some meltas in there. Some very good competitive Chaos players have been using them in their lists.
Basically you surge forward T1, blow away a screen using VotLW + EC as necessary, warptime them forward and then hit the enemy lines. They are bad in combat but they are an excellent way of getting your opponent on the back foot as soon as the game begins.
I really like it personally. It feels very Chaos-y. Hit them hard and then keep the pressure on in subsequent turns as you bring in deepstrikers and the rest of your army makes it to combat.
I actually came here to ask my own (somewhat related) question. What are the best chaos flyers at the moment? Is it the heldrake? How do the FW options stack up, now that they don't seem to be getting any points changes?
The chaos xiphon interceptor is the best flyer, IMHO. Make it nurgle, cast miasma of pestilence on it, -2 to hit. It hits everything at 3+, FLY on 2+. Negative hit modifiers can be countered by prescience. IW have some nice strats for it, heal 3 wounds, re-roll wound rolls, re-roll damage rolls. It can turn 180 degrees, and remain in your own deployment zone.
Interesting choice, though the cost of the platform is only a few points short of a storm eagle, which is tougher and can transport units, and still has a pretty decent amount of firepower.
Though you can take two heldrakes for the same cost as either of them, i guess.
saint_red wrote: Maxed bike squads are actually sweet. 9 dudes with chainswords, combi-bolter on the champ and if you have the points chuck some meltas in there. Some very good competitive Chaos players have been using them in their lists.
Basically you surge forward T1, blow away a screen using VotLW + EC as necessary, warptime them forward and then hit the enemy lines. They are bad in combat but they are an excellent way of getting your opponent on the back foot as soon as the game begins.
I really like it personally. It feels very Chaos-y. Hit them hard and then keep the pressure on in subsequent turns as you bring in deepstrikers and the rest of your army makes it to combat.
I haven't tried a squad maxed out yet. I think my concern was diminishing returns with only two special weapons per, plus the combi for the champion. I definitely appreciate the output of shots though. I've got a game next week with two squads of three, chainswords, two flamers each and a combi-flamer. They make an easy outrider detachment too, with a unit of warp talons for the third Fast Attack option. I feel like they're a bit too expensive to be run for screens alone, no?
My painting log is full of snakes Have any retro, vintage, or out of print models? Show them off here! Games I play: 40k (CSM, Necrons); AoS/Fantasy (Seraphon/Lizardmen); Warcry; Marvel Crisis Protocol; Wargods of Olympus/Aegyptus; Mythos
I like the Scorpius’ rules. Is it really worth a Havoc RCC Squad plus a Rhino?
I played my Slaanesh rushdown list today and got crucified by an Ultramarines gunline plus lengthways deployment. Didn’t even make a charge, nothing left but cultists T3 - even with the trinity of 4++, 5+++, & -1 to be hit. Think I needed some kind of long-ranged gun, she had buckets of 24” firepower and a single Devastator squad to force me to come at her. A Defiler is the obvious choice, I guess, since it can also join the Daemonic tide? But it’s doubly swingy as an extreme range weapon. I suppose a C-Beamer in each corner could also do something…
My most consistent long-range shooting comes from my Defiler. I've thought about picking up a second for a long while now - it's a great model and it does a lot of damage. But I feel like my lists have been too heavy on daemon engines and not leaving a lot of room for board control.
Another option would be Predators. With double lascannons it is cheaper than the Defiler, but the Defiler brooks no argument in close combat and has a little more flexibility to be anti-tank or anti-infantry with the same model.
My painting log is full of snakes Have any retro, vintage, or out of print models? Show them off here! Games I play: 40k (CSM, Necrons); AoS/Fantasy (Seraphon/Lizardmen); Warcry; Marvel Crisis Protocol; Wargods of Olympus/Aegyptus; Mythos
orkswubwub wrote: Any thoughts on running two big blobs of possessed? They clock in 17ppm which is only 1 more than an equivalent wound count of the newly costed plaguebearers and only 1.5 points per wound more than the 'old' plaguebearers. While it is fun to imagine all the juicy damage buffs that can be placed on the possessed the reality is most of the time it isn't necessary to have 6 damage possessed swinging around - as they mulch most of what they get into melee anyway? They are also now sitting post shock attack rule which is just gravy.
Thinking just straight alpha legion for the infiltrate and -1 to hit. Running a Term Lord and master of possession with vigilus detach - headhunter on the term lord and master of possession for the mortal wounds on 6. Put the alpha bolter on the term lord for rapid 2 5dmg -3ap 2dmg to snipe some chars... Cursed Earth goes off on a 7 but could potentially put them to a 4++.
Sprinkle in the remainder of the list a contorted epitome (slan detach for the advance and charge) and warptime somewhere (always good anyway) can be tough? As the possessed are the primary beatstick debating delightful agonies (CSM) and an exalted champ... With the points reduction to oblits and 'conceal' now being decent strat for them thinking of dropping in a x3 unit to round out the army and give some ranged threat... Also most buffs that focus on the possessed work for oblits (Delightful agonies, MOP spells, etc.)
This became a bit of a ramble and a classic case of stacking every buff on one unit and thinking how good it could (impractically) be - but TLDR thoughts on the reduced points for possessed - point per wound / damage and what is the minimum buffs necessary for them to be effective? Could they be competitive?
My current list has 40 of them. I run alpha legion so the trait is a little counter intuitive as possessed want to be in cc. However, with PA2, my new strategy is to miasma and benediction of darkness one unit for -3 to be shot, advance position and warp time time up. The second unit will follow closely behind and get concealed until its time to charge. I've had some luck with daemonkin ritualist, primarily for the Shepard of the true faith warlord trait. Double exalted champions, double dark apostles. It's a little pricey and they will all die to a man, but they're a blast to play.
Am I mistaken or does the Emperor's Children stratagem Excess of Violence not have the wording preventing bonus attacks granting additional bonus attacks. I'm curious as to if a unit of power fist terminators would be pretty decent on the charge out of deep strike.
Am I mistaken or does the Emperor's Children stratagem Excess of Violence not have the wording preventing bonus attacks granting additional bonus attacks. I'm curious as to if a unit of power fist terminators would be pretty decent on the charge out of deep strike.
I... uh... hmm.
I didn't notice that.
I suspect it's going to get FAQ'd? Although it relies on kills not hits/wounds of 6's, so it cant end up murdering a knight, but it could mulch through whole units of troops... maybe it's intentional?
Hmm.
I mean I was -already- taking Emp.Children terminators and charging out of deepstrike with them, I was just planning on taking power swords though. Throwing in a fist or two won't hurt.
saint_red wrote: Maxed bike squads are actually sweet. 9 dudes with chainswords, combi-bolter on the champ and if you have the points chuck some meltas in there. Some very good competitive Chaos players have been using them in their lists.
Basically you surge forward T1, blow away a screen using VotLW + EC as necessary, warptime them forward and then hit the enemy lines. They are bad in combat but they are an excellent way of getting your opponent on the back foot as soon as the game begins.
I really like it personally. It feels very Chaos-y. Hit them hard and then keep the pressure on in subsequent turns as you bring in deepstrikers and the rest of your army makes it to combat.
I haven't tried a squad maxed out yet. I think my concern was diminishing returns with only two special weapons per, plus the combi for the champion. I definitely appreciate the output of shots though. I've got a game next week with two squads of three, chainswords, two flamers each and a combi-flamer. They make an easy outrider detachment too, with a unit of warp talons for the third Fast Attack option. I feel like they're a bit too expensive to be run for screens alone, no?
Max squad is good because it leverages EC and VotLW harder. Special weapons aren't very good anyway so the diminishing returns you mention isn't really a problem.
As for being too expensive for screens - something has to kill them. Bikers are good because you can get them into position easily, they have 24" range and they can get into combat T1 to put pressure on your opponent. Don't underestimate how valuable it is having 9 T5 W2 models that your opponent has to clear out to shoot or move up the board. This gives you time to move your second wave of dudes in.
In this battle report Jim Vesal (#1 in ITC championship right now) uses bikers in this way and it really puts his opponent on the back foot. His opponent is not a competitive player and makes some mistakes but you get a good idea of how effective this tactic can be. Note that Jim uses a DP to move with the bikes and get his warptime off.
orkswubwub wrote: Any thoughts on running two big blobs of possessed? They clock in 17ppm which is only 1 more than an equivalent wound count of the newly costed plaguebearers and only 1.5 points per wound more than the 'old' plaguebearers. While it is fun to imagine all the juicy damage buffs that can be placed on the possessed the reality is most of the time it isn't necessary to have 6 damage possessed swinging around - as they mulch most of what they get into melee anyway? They are also now sitting post shock attack rule which is just gravy.
Thinking just straight alpha legion for the infiltrate and -1 to hit. Running a Term Lord and master of possession with vigilus detach - headhunter on the term lord and master of possession for the mortal wounds on 6. Put the alpha bolter on the term lord for rapid 2 5dmg -3ap 2dmg to snipe some chars... Cursed Earth goes off on a 7 but could potentially put them to a 4++.
Sprinkle in the remainder of the list a contorted epitome (slan detach for the advance and charge) and warptime somewhere (always good anyway) can be tough? As the possessed are the primary beatstick debating delightful agonies (CSM) and an exalted champ... With the points reduction to oblits and 'conceal' now being decent strat for them thinking of dropping in a x3 unit to round out the army and give some ranged threat... Also most buffs that focus on the possessed work for oblits (Delightful agonies, MOP spells, etc.)
This became a bit of a ramble and a classic case of stacking every buff on one unit and thinking how good it could (impractically) be - but TLDR thoughts on the reduced points for possessed - point per wound / damage and what is the minimum buffs necessary for them to be effective? Could they be competitive?
My current list has 40 of them. I run alpha legion so the trait is a little counter intuitive as possessed want to be in cc. However, with PA2, my new strategy is to miasma and benediction of darkness one unit for -3 to be shot, advance position and warp time time up. The second unit will follow closely behind and get concealed until its time to charge. I've had some luck with daemonkin ritualist, primarily for the Shepard of the true faith warlord trait. Double exalted champions, double dark apostles. It's a little pricey and they will all die to a man, but they're a blast to play.
Am I mistaken or does the Emperor's Children stratagem Excess of Violence not have the wording preventing bonus attacks granting additional bonus attacks. I'm curious as to if a unit of power fist terminators would be pretty decent on the charge out of deep strike.
Would you mind sharing your list? Why two exalted champs and two DA as they have mostly aura abilities? Particularly if you are concealing the second group of possessed?
Actually @ Nirru, they did lower the price on the Helltalons and Hellblades a bit.
it's about 130pts now for a full Hellblade. It MIGHT be worth to be considered, but that's it.
I am still astounded though on the terrible state of predators still are in.
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
So chaincannon havoks are still the best at killing a lot of things point for point... do we have any additional tricks except putting them in a rhino? I'm most likely going to run iron warriors now as it just seems best for my deamon engine heavy army.
I guess alpha legion repositioning seems like a very strong option.
saint_red wrote: Maxed bike squads are actually sweet. 9 dudes with chainswords, combi-bolter on the champ and if you have the points chuck some meltas in there. Some very good competitive Chaos players have been using them in their lists.
Basically you surge forward T1, blow away a screen using VotLW + EC as necessary, warptime them forward and then hit the enemy lines. They are bad in combat but they are an excellent way of getting your opponent on the back foot as soon as the game begins.
I really like it personally. It feels very Chaos-y. Hit them hard and then keep the pressure on in subsequent turns as you bring in deepstrikers and the rest of your army makes it to combat.
I haven't tried a squad maxed out yet. I think my concern was diminishing returns with only two special weapons per, plus the combi for the champion. I definitely appreciate the output of shots though. I've got a game next week with two squads of three, chainswords, two flamers each and a combi-flamer. They make an easy outrider detachment too, with a unit of warp talons for the third Fast Attack option. I feel like they're a bit too expensive to be run for screens alone, no?
Max squad is good because it leverages EC and VotLW harder. Special weapons aren't very good anyway so the diminishing returns you mention isn't really a problem.
As for being too expensive for screens - something has to kill them. Bikers are good because you can get them into position easily, they have 24" range and they can get into combat T1 to put pressure on your opponent. Don't underestimate how valuable it is having 9 T5 W2 models that your opponent has to clear out to shoot or move up the board. This gives you time to move your second wave of dudes in.
In this battle report Jim Vesal (#1 in ITC championship right now) uses bikers in this way and it really puts his opponent on the back foot. His opponent is not a competitive player and makes some mistakes but you get a good idea of how effective this tactic can be. Note that Jim uses a DP to move with the bikes and get his warptime off.
Ah nice. I'll check out the battle report later in the day. I'm thinking of the models that I have... I have two "naked" bikers, three champions, and six sets of mixed special weapons. I'd have to proxy but I'd like to try having one 8-man naked unit with chainswords and one three-man unit with flamers. I'm guessing the DP had wings? I usually have a jump-pack sorcerer to deep strike with my warp talons but maybe he could babysit the bikes a bit. Or have the DP following the bikes, letting them warptime into combat then joining in T2.
I just wish the models weren't so dated! I didn't mind them at first but after building six of them I got a bit sick of having to putty over the moldlines in the bike itself. Luckily the new CSM sprue is roughly compatible with the bikers, though you need to massage them a little bit. If you've got a decent enough bits box it's easy to make them look unique.
The biker spru also has my very favorite Chaos Space Marine head of all time... that angry head with a top knit is so perfect. It's exactly what I think of when I think of the Long War.
My painting log is full of snakes Have any retro, vintage, or out of print models? Show them off here! Games I play: 40k (CSM, Necrons); AoS/Fantasy (Seraphon/Lizardmen); Warcry; Marvel Crisis Protocol; Wargods of Olympus/Aegyptus; Mythos
mrtomski wrote: So chaincannon havoks are still the best at killing a lot of things point for point... do we have any additional tricks except putting them in a rhino? I'm most likely going to run iron warriors now as it just seems best for my deamon engine heavy army.
I guess alpha legion repositioning seems like a very strong option.
mrtomski wrote: So chaincannon havoks are still the best at killing a lot of things point for point... do we have any additional tricks except putting them in a rhino? I'm most likely going to run iron warriors now as it just seems best for my deamon engine heavy army.
I guess alpha legion repositioning seems like a very strong option.
I picked up a Dreadclaw recently, seems that it might be a good candidate for RCC delivery as well.
My painting log is full of snakes Have any retro, vintage, or out of print models? Show them off here! Games I play: 40k (CSM, Necrons); AoS/Fantasy (Seraphon/Lizardmen); Warcry; Marvel Crisis Protocol; Wargods of Olympus/Aegyptus; Mythos
saint_red wrote: Maxed bike squads are actually sweet. 9 dudes with chainswords, combi-bolter on the champ and if you have the points chuck some meltas in there. Some very good competitive Chaos players have been using them in their lists.
Basically you surge forward T1, blow away a screen using VotLW + EC as necessary, warptime them forward and then hit the enemy lines. They are bad in combat but they are an excellent way of getting your opponent on the back foot as soon as the game begins.
I really like it personally. It feels very Chaos-y. Hit them hard and then keep the pressure on in subsequent turns as you bring in deepstrikers and the rest of your army makes it to combat.
I haven't tried a squad maxed out yet. I think my concern was diminishing returns with only two special weapons per, plus the combi for the champion. I definitely appreciate the output of shots though. I've got a game next week with two squads of three, chainswords, two flamers each and a combi-flamer. They make an easy outrider detachment too, with a unit of warp talons for the third Fast Attack option. I feel like they're a bit too expensive to be run for screens alone, no?
Max squad is good because it leverages EC and VotLW harder. Special weapons aren't very good anyway so the diminishing returns you mention isn't really a problem.
As for being too expensive for screens - something has to kill them. Bikers are good because you can get them into position easily, they have 24" range and they can get into combat T1 to put pressure on your opponent. Don't underestimate how valuable it is having 9 T5 W2 models that your opponent has to clear out to shoot or move up the board. This gives you time to move your second wave of dudes in.
In this battle report Jim Vesal (#1 in ITC championship right now) uses bikers in this way and it really puts his opponent on the back foot. His opponent is not a competitive player and makes some mistakes but you get a good idea of how effective this tactic can be. Note that Jim uses a DP to move with the bikes and get his warptime off.
Ah nice. I'll check out the battle report later in the day. I'm thinking of the models that I have... I have two "naked" bikers, three champions, and six sets of mixed special weapons. I'd have to proxy but I'd like to try having one 8-man naked unit with chainswords and one three-man unit with flamers. I'm guessing the DP had wings? I usually have a jump-pack sorcerer to deep strike with my warp talons but maybe he could babysit the bikes a bit. Or have the DP following the bikes, letting them warptime into combat then joining in T2.
I just wish the models weren't so dated! I didn't mind them at first but after building six of them I got a bit sick of having to putty over the moldlines in the bike itself. Luckily the new CSM sprue is roughly compatible with the bikers, though you need to massage them a little bit. If you've got a decent enough bits box it's easy to make them look unique.
The biker spru also has my very favorite Chaos Space Marine head of all time... that angry head with a top knit is so perfect. It's exactly what I think of when I think of the Long War.
It's worth the extra money to go to FW and get the Outriders. They look nice.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
Emperor's children warp talons absolutely demolish 1 wound chaff, due to the excess of violence buff that no longer puts a limit on how many attacks it can generate.
Deep strike them 9 away spread out as much as you can so you can charge as much of the enemy line as possible, cast prescience on them charge there entire army that is in range (they can't over watch due to warpflame strike) use praise the prince to almost guarantee the charge by changing 1 dice to a 6.
Once in combat with there entire chaff line, use veterans of the long war and excess of violence, try to stay in range of your daemon prince/chaos lord for the reroll of 1s.
31 attacks split between however many units you have charged 3 attacks each 4 on champion, 2+ with re-roll to hit, 2+ with re-rolls to wound.
Every kill generates an extra attack, if the chaff doesn't have at least a 5+ save they can just say goodbye to their screens.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/12/06 23:08:22
Rydria wrote: Emperor's children warp talons absolutely demolish 1 wound chaff, due to the excess of violence buff that no longer puts a limit on how many attacks it can generate.
Deep strike them 9 away spread out as much as you can so you can charge as much of the enemy line as possible, cast prescience on them charge there entire army that is in range (they can't over watch due to warpflame strike) use praise the prince to almost guarantee the charge by changing 1 dice to a 6.
Once in combat with there entire chaff line, use veterans of the long war and excess of violence, try to stay in range of your daemon prince/chaos lord for the reroll of 1s.
31 attacks split between however many units you have charged 3 attacks each 4 on champion, 2+ with re-roll to hit, 2+ with re-rolls to wound.
Every kill generates an extra attack, if the chaff doesn't have at least a 5+ save they can just say goodbye to their screens.
I'm a big fan of Warp Talons, I run a unit of ten in most lists. Unfortunately Warptime doesn't work on units just coming out of deep strike, though - they weren't very playable until Vigilus Ablaze let you take the specialty formation. I drop a jump pack sorcerer in with the warlord trait that gives +2 to charge. I'm thinking of splitting them into two units of five, adding an extra FA option and running a Night Lords Outrider, to turn the 7 inch charge into a 5 inch charge. For me, warp talons were the big winners with Night Lords.
My painting log is full of snakes Have any retro, vintage, or out of print models? Show them off here! Games I play: 40k (CSM, Necrons); AoS/Fantasy (Seraphon/Lizardmen); Warcry; Marvel Crisis Protocol; Wargods of Olympus/Aegyptus; Mythos
Rydria wrote: Emperor's children warp talons absolutely demolish 1 wound chaff, due to the excess of violence buff that no longer puts a limit on how many attacks it can generate.
Deep strike them 9 away spread out as much as you can so you can charge as much of the enemy line as possible, cast prescience on them charge there entire army that is in range (they can't over watch due to warpflame strike) use praise the prince to almost guarantee the charge by changing 1 dice to a 6.
Once in combat with there entire chaff line, use veterans of the long war and excess of violence, try to stay in range of your daemon prince/chaos lord for the reroll of 1s.
31 attacks split between however many units you have charged 3 attacks each 4 on champion, 2+ with re-roll to hit, 2+ with re-rolls to wound.
Every kill generates an extra attack, if the chaff doesn't have at least a 5+ save they can just say goodbye to their screens.
I'm a big fan of Warp Talons, I run a unit of ten in most lists. Unfortunately Warptime doesn't work on units just coming out of deep strike, though - they weren't very playable until Vigilus Ablaze let you take the specialty formation. I drop a jump pack sorcerer in with the warlord trait that gives +2 to charge. I'm thinking of splitting them into two units of five, adding an extra FA option and running a Night Lords Outrider, to turn the 7 inch charge into a 5 inch charge. For me, warp talons were the big winners with Night Lords.
I didn't bring up the psychic power warptime at all though, warpflame strike is a completely different ability which prevents overwatch, praise the prince is a stratagem that lets you change the result on a charge die to 6 after rolling.
Emperor's children warptalons also have an 100% chance to successfully charge if you use the Vigilus Ablaze speciality formation, since the lowest you can roll with praise the prince + the warlord trait is 7 which is a successful charge with a +2 charge range buff.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2019/12/07 00:11:45
Now that it has rules again via Legends, I was considering buying a Lord of Khorne on Juggernaut, and was wondering how one might use it in a CSM army. I was thinking of kitting mine out with a power fist and power axe (or power sword), for maximum melee power and make him as best I could the mounted version of a berzerker, but how could it be used besides other CSM units for maximum effectiveness?
orkswubwub wrote: Any thoughts on running two big blobs of possessed? They clock in 17ppm which is only 1 more than an equivalent wound count of the newly costed plaguebearers and only 1.5 points per wound more than the 'old' plaguebearers. While it is fun to imagine all the juicy damage buffs that can be placed on the possessed the reality is most of the time it isn't necessary to have 6 damage possessed swinging around - as they mulch most of what they get into melee anyway? They are also now sitting post shock attack rule which is just gravy.
Thinking just straight alpha legion for the infiltrate and -1 to hit. Running a Term Lord and master of possession with vigilus detach - headhunter on the term lord and master of possession for the mortal wounds on 6. Put the alpha bolter on the term lord for rapid 2 5dmg -3ap 2dmg to snipe some chars... Cursed Earth goes off on a 7 but could potentially put them to a 4++.
Sprinkle in the remainder of the list a contorted epitome (slan detach for the advance and charge) and warptime somewhere (always good anyway) can be tough? As the possessed are the primary beatstick debating delightful agonies (CSM) and an exalted champ... With the points reduction to oblits and 'conceal' now being decent strat for them thinking of dropping in a x3 unit to round out the army and give some ranged threat... Also most buffs that focus on the possessed work for oblits (Delightful agonies, MOP spells, etc.)
This became a bit of a ramble and a classic case of stacking every buff on one unit and thinking how good it could (impractically) be - but TLDR thoughts on the reduced points for possessed - point per wound / damage and what is the minimum buffs necessary for them to be effective? Could they be competitive?
My current list has 40 of them. I run alpha legion so the trait is a little counter intuitive as possessed want to be in cc. However, with PA2, my new strategy is to miasma and benediction of darkness one unit for -3 to be shot, advance position and warp time time up. The second unit will follow closely behind and get concealed until its time to charge. I've had some luck with daemonkin ritualist, primarily for the Shepard of the true faith warlord trait. Double exalted champions, double dark apostles. It's a little pricey and they will all die to a man, but they're a blast to play.
Am I mistaken or does the Emperor's Children stratagem Excess of Violence not have the wording preventing bonus attacks granting additional bonus attacks. I'm curious as to if a unit of power fist terminators would be pretty decent on the charge out of deep strike.
Would you mind sharing your list? Why two exalted champs and two DA as they have mostly aura abilities? Particularly if you are concealing the second group of possessed?
As I don't have access to the updated points from CA, my points will be off. Jump sorc has the mark of Nurgle for miasma and warptime. I switch between a combi bolter for long range demon shell or 2 chain axes on the exalted, if I think I'm going to have to fight another CC based army. One apostle has benediction of darkness, the other has soul render portent. They both help with the morale checks you'll end up taking when the possessed start taking fire. I make the MoP my warlord and plan to give him the +2 armor with +++5 FNP. The list is super thirsty for CP, but its fun. If you run it, REMEMBER possessed are rend 2! It could mean the difference in bracketting a knight or tank.
Spoiler:
Dark Disciples [1 PL, 10pts]: 2x Dark Disciple
Dark Disciples [1 PL, 10pts]: 2x Dark Disciple
Legion: Alpha Legion
+ HQ +
Dark Apostle [5 PL, 100pts]: No Chaos Mark
Dark Apostle [5 PL, 100pts]: No Chaos Mark
Master of Possession [5 PL, 98pts]: Force stave, No Chaos Mark
+ Troops +
Chaos Cultists [3 PL, 50pts]: No Chaos Mark
. 9x Chaos Cultist w/ Autogun
. Cultist Champion: Autogun
Chaos Space Marines [8 PL, 170pts]: No Chaos Mark
. Aspiring Champion: Bolt pistol, Boltgun
. 7x Marine w/ Boltgun
. Marine w/ Heavy or Special Weapon: Missile launcher
. Marine w/ Heavy or Special Weapon: Missile launcher
Chaos Space Marines [8 PL, 170pts]: No Chaos Mark
. Aspiring Champion: Bolt pistol, Boltgun
. 7x Marine w/ Boltgun
. Marine w/ Heavy or Special Weapon: Missile launcher
. Marine w/ Heavy or Special Weapon: Missile launcher
+ Elites +
Possessed [20 PL, 400pts]: Mark of Nurgle, 20x Possessed
Possessed [20 PL, 400pts]: Mark of Nurgle, 20x Possessed
+ Heavy Support +
Obliterators [6 PL, 115pts]: No Chaos Mark, Obliterator
Obliterators [6 PL, 115pts]: No Chaos Mark, Obliterator
Rydria wrote: Emperor's children warp talons absolutely demolish 1 wound chaff, due to the excess of violence buff that no longer puts a limit on how many attacks it can generate.
Deep strike them 9 away spread out as much as you can so you can charge as much of the enemy line as possible, cast prescience on them charge there entire army that is in range (they can't over watch due to warpflame strike) use praise the prince to almost guarantee the charge by changing 1 dice to a 6.
Once in combat with there entire chaff line, use veterans of the long war and excess of violence, try to stay in range of your daemon prince/chaos lord for the reroll of 1s.
31 attacks split between however many units you have charged 3 attacks each 4 on champion, 2+ with re-roll to hit, 2+ with re-rolls to wound.
Every kill generates an extra attack, if the chaff doesn't have at least a 5+ save they can just say goodbye to their screens.
I'm a big fan of Warp Talons, I run a unit of ten in most lists. Unfortunately Warptime doesn't work on units just coming out of deep strike, though - they weren't very playable until Vigilus Ablaze let you take the specialty formation. I drop a jump pack sorcerer in with the warlord trait that gives +2 to charge. I'm thinking of splitting them into two units of five, adding an extra FA option and running a Night Lords Outrider, to turn the 7 inch charge into a 5 inch charge. For me, warp talons were the big winners with Night Lords.
I didn't bring up the psychic power warptime at all though, warpflame strike is a completely different ability which prevents overwatch, praise the prince is a stratagem that lets you change the result on a charge die to 6 after rolling.
Emperor's children warptalons also have an 100% chance to successfully charge if you use the Vigilus Ablaze speciality formation, since the lowest you can roll with praise the prince + the warlord trait is 7 which is a successful charge with a +2 charge range buff.
This sounds like it has legs.. so 10 is 190 points and you get 31 attacks with rerolls to wound. So the idea would be drop them in, charge everything and try and wrap one guy/model to keep them alive for another turn. Which should be relatively easy to do since you dont need to worry about overwatch.
Nightlords do it better - not killing, but disabling and disrupting. We have come for you & Vox scream are two great abilities for talons, and they have 3d6+2" charges themselves. They tie in CC much better and can shut down auras (chapter masters, synapse, invuln bubbles, you name it). They can also, if they survive a turn, disengage 12" over their opponent into their backlines and charge again at a juicy target.
Rydria wrote: Emperor's children warp talons absolutely demolish 1 wound chaff, due to the excess of violence buff that no longer puts a limit on how many attacks it can generate.
Deep strike them 9 away spread out as much as you can so you can charge as much of the enemy line as possible, cast prescience on them charge there entire army that is in range (they can't over watch due to warpflame strike) use praise the prince to almost guarantee the charge by changing 1 dice to a 6.
Once in combat with there entire chaff line, use veterans of the long war and excess of violence, try to stay in range of your daemon prince/chaos lord for the reroll of 1s.
31 attacks split between however many units you have charged 3 attacks each 4 on champion, 2+ with re-roll to hit, 2+ with re-rolls to wound.
Every kill generates an extra attack, if the chaff doesn't have at least a 5+ save they can just say goodbye to their screens.
I'm a big fan of Warp Talons, I run a unit of ten in most lists. Unfortunately Warptime doesn't work on units just coming out of deep strike, though - they weren't very playable until Vigilus Ablaze let you take the specialty formation. I drop a jump pack sorcerer in with the warlord trait that gives +2 to charge. I'm thinking of splitting them into two units of five, adding an extra FA option and running a Night Lords Outrider, to turn the 7 inch charge into a 5 inch charge. For me, warp talons were the big winners with Night Lords.
I didn't bring up the psychic power warptime at all though, warpflame strike is a completely different ability which prevents overwatch, praise the prince is a stratagem that lets you change the result on a charge die to 6 after rolling.
Emperor's children warptalons also have an 100% chance to successfully charge if you use the Vigilus Ablaze speciality formation, since the lowest you can roll with praise the prince + the warlord trait is 7 which is a successful charge with a +2 charge range buff.
This sounds like it has legs.. so 10 is 190 points and you get 31 attacks with rerolls to wound. So the idea would be drop them in, charge everything and try and wrap one guy/model to keep them alive for another turn. Which should be relatively easy to do since you dont need to worry about overwatch.
This is why I like night lords, you just have to tag as much as possible, preferably after you consolidate then spend 1 cp anf lock a load in combat. Plus Vox Scream might be the best strat in the game.
As for the max sized bike squad, would you advise putting flamers on them for a bit more punch against chaff? An additional 7 auto hitting Bolters plus another 7 from EC seems a bit brutal for the meager price of 12 points that will keep shooting every turn. Throw in a combiflamer on the champ and you also get an additional Bolter shot at bs 4+ and another 3.5 auto hit Bolter shots and seeing as how you were going to charge stuff anyways you want to be in flamer range.
Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before. -Kurt Vonnegut
