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Yeah, giving those three (three!) LoS have a 4++ is a major boost

 lindsay40k wrote:
Yeah, giving those three (three!) LoS have a 4++ is a major boost

That's the idea, though most likely due to map or deployment you rarely will be able to keep all 3 within 6" of a master of Possession. If only there was a way within the list to extend his aura.

But even then if you can give at least 2 the buff it gives your opponent a red herring to shoot the 3rd one instead. So during deployment you pair a warpsmith with the one who will be far out of the aura.

Couple that up with Dour Duty, and the flat heal 3 stratagems, you should hopefully be able to keep him alive.

I absolutely plan on using Psychic Familiar to swap Dark Hereticus powers around in place of smite (warptime, prescience, death hex, diabolic strength).

But the question I'm left with is what is better on the MoP: cursed earth and infernal power? (Reroll hits and wounds of 1 within 6") or sacrifice (hurt something to heal something within 18").

I like the idea of your opponent taking a lone KLoS down to it's last bracket then you heal it for 3 (stratagem) + 3(sacrifice) + d3 (warpsmith) +1 (infernal regeneration). Up to 10 wounds back is pretty tasty. But is it better than the reroll aura?

 small_gods wrote:

This isn't a CP heavy list, your main strats will cost 1 or 2cp and you can manage fine with none. Why not drop 3x cultists and upgrade a warpsmith to a 3rd lord discordant. Give him the master of soulforges will help 1st turn charges and draw fire from your daemonsmith LD.

I think this is worth exploring, I'd like to either fit in another Discolord, or maybe even a Dark Apostle to help protect one that is out of Master of Possession range. That being said I do plan on burning 5 or more cp a turn to make your rolls as reliable as possible. Anticipating rerolling psychic tests, and charges and advance rolls.

Also I was kind of going to aggressively screen with 3 cultists blobs while the others grab objectives/secondaries (like engineers).

It would be even better maybe to find points to include heldrakes. It would take care of the flyer issue and could shut down gunline artillary...

weaver9 wrote:

I think this is worth exploring, I'd like to either fit in another Discolord, or maybe even a Dark Apostle to help protect one that is out of Master of Possession range. That being said I do plan on burning 5 or more cp a turn to make your rolls as reliable as possible. Anticipating rerolling psychic tests, and charges and advance rolls.

Also I was kind of going to aggressively screen with 3 cultists blobs while the others grab objectives/secondaries (like engineers).

It would be even better maybe to find points to include heldrakes. It would take care of the flyer issue and could shut down gunline artillary...

I'd never go for engineers. It's too easy to denny you points with line of sight ignoring shoting. I've fallen for that trap a fee times myself!

You won't be able to build a list that is bulletproof to all counters but swapping a LOS for heldrakes could work. The footprint of the LOS makes usimg 3 and 3 LD difficult. You could go for:

3 Lord Docordants
Sorcerer
Master of possession

30 cultists

2 hellturkeys

2 LOS

 small_gods wrote:

weaver9 wrote:

I think this is worth exploring, I'd like to either fit in another Discolord, or maybe even a Dark Apostle to help protect one that is out of Master of Possession range. That being said I do plan on burning 5 or more cp a turn to make your rolls as reliable as possible. Anticipating rerolling psychic tests, and charges and advance rolls.

Also I was kind of going to aggressively screen with 3 cultists blobs while the others grab objectives/secondaries (like engineers).

It would be even better maybe to find points to include heldrakes. It would take care of the flyer issue and could shut down gunline artillary...

I'd never go for engineers. It's too easy to denny you points with line of sight ignoring shoting. I've fallen for that trap a fee times myself!

You won't be able to build a list that is bulletproof to all counters but swapping a LOS for heldrakes could work. The footprint of the LOS makes usimg 3 and 3 LD difficult. You could go for:

3 Lord Docordants
Sorcerer
Master of possession

30 cultists

2 hellturkeys

2 LOS

Also good points. Here's what I came up with:



This gives you 7cp to start, which isn't much.
I think I like the first list better so far.

But burning 240 points on cultists is a bummer if I don't use them (but they should have a purpose as a screen if nothing else)

Niiru wrote:

saint_red wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:
*snip*

Why not both?

Just take an air wing of hellblades for vox scream, it's easier to pull off/harder for them to shut down especially with the mobility. I actually think Emperors children have better warp talons and jump lords.

*snip*

While it's fun to imagine boning those fish folk, kroot are criminal at 4ppm and with their pregame 7" scout your probably never touching anything worth while, and even if you somehow pile in and do, all their heavy lifting comes on flying platforms

You are missing a lot of the picture here. We Have Come For You means units with FLY cannot fall back. That is the whole point. It lets your otherwise extremely fragile Warp Talons grab any units without needing to tri-point and be completely safe from shooting in your opponent's turn. Additionally, NLs have access to a +1 to hit strat (Prey on the Weak) if they have greater leadership than the unit they are fighting. Because we are marines we have high LD and the NL legion trait effectively means that you win ties. The only armies that will have higher leadership than you will be Necrons and Orks with Mob Rule.

Let's recap. Night Lords bring the following to the table:

3D6 charge

Strat to turn off auras

Almost always available +1 to hit

Trap non-vehicles in combat

Fall back and charge

Legion trait that's kinda useful

Emperor's Children bring:

Turn one charge dice into a 6

Combat drugs - good but expensive and maybe better used elsewhere

Legion trait that's not useful

I can't really see how you can present the case that EC have better jump infantry. Their charge strat is actually lower odds to get you into combat than 3D6 is too.

Not the person you're talking to, but a couple things stand out here -

1) You list all the NL strats that improve the Warp Talons, but not all the EC ones. You missed out the one that gives you bonus attacks for every kill you make, for a start, which seems like it would murder hordes and pretty much any infantry screens. There's also the ability to get -3AP on some of your attacks, but not sure if that works out as worthwhile.

2) I can't remember the exact maths, but I'm pretty sure that the EC roll of an auto 6 works out as better odds of getting into charge range than 3D6. I think 3D6 gets you up to ~72%? and the auto6 gets you up to at least 83% (possibly higher, not sure how to work it out beyond that).

Edit - 3) You say the EmpChil legion trait isn't useful, but it's actually very useful for warp talons. Means that in the enemy turn, when the enemy fight back (especially if they're forced to remain in combat with tri or whatever), the warp talons get to attack first. Which means the enemy will get a bunch less attacks to throw back at them. Best defence is murder. Can save a lot of lives.

Night Lords seems more resilient and tactical, EmpChil seems more killy. (Edit - I wrote this before I realised about the legion trait. EmpChil is probably more resilient in combat because of it, but Night Lords may win out depending on what aura they shut off. Both situational.) I think both have their uses. I certainly think both are the most viable uses for jump troops out of all the current options.

Although if you're planning to use a lot of jump / assault units.... why not do what I do and take both? 2CP gets you two units into combat on turn 2. Just a thought.

You're right that I missed the bonus attacks strat. It's only good against weak 1w models though. For instance, against Primaris it is a multiplier of 1.16 which is not efficient. If you are NL you can just take MoK to fight twice for 3CP which doubles your damage and is twice as CP efficient as the EC option.

The strat for -3AP is useless on a unit that's already -2AP. The strat is good for units like Noise Marines but that's not what we're talking about here.

The EC trait IS rubbish. You need to be multicharged for it to work which very rarely happens in 8th edition. Even then, the first unit that charges you will not have too much trouble with 1w 3+ models.

The best resilience is not murder. It's not getting shot. Any army you charge as EC will fall back and then pound your 19ppw models with shooting. This is not an option against Night Lords.

Finally, because you are Night Lords and you can pin screens in combat with you, you have effectively 2 fight phases to wipe a unit. EC only have one because your enemy is just going to fall back in their turn.

NL Warp Talons are significantly better than EC ones. EC have other strategies that they are good at but for pure raptor strike disruption style stuff NL have it in the bag.

Has anyone attempted to field a footslogging Alpha legion marine list yet?

Not Online!!! wrote:
Has anyone attempted to field a footslogging Alpha legion marine list yet?

I've played a list with csm, chosen and havocks on foot. But not pure footslogging marines.

The movement/deepstrike tricks are really useful and great for playing the mission. It's great to be able to brig down a min unit of marines turn 5 to grab that important objective.

 small_gods wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
Has anyone attempted to field a footslogging Alpha legion marine list yet?

I've played a list with csm, chosen and havocks on foot. But not pure footslogging marines.

The movement/deepstrike tricks are really useful and great for playing the mission. It's great to be able to brig down a min unit of marines turn 5 to grab that important objective.

Sorry. Not that familiar with chaos rules but does Alpha Legion have some special rule allowing T5 deep strike?

tneva82 wrote:

 small_gods wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
Has anyone attempted to field a footslogging Alpha legion marine list yet?

I've played a list with csm, chosen and havocks on foot. But not pure footslogging marines.

The movement/deepstrike tricks are really useful and great for playing the mission. It's great to be able to brig down a min unit of marines turn 5 to grab that important objective.

Sorry. Not that familiar with chaos rules but does Alpha Legion have some special rule allowing T5 deep strike?

Alpha legion has renascent infiltration, which allows you to remove a unit and deepstrike it next turn during the game. I don't know IF you are allowed to do that after turn 3, due to beeing a stratagem and codex / supplements taking precedent over rulebooks and FAQ's I'd assume that renascent infiltration does indeed bypass this due to beeing written AFTER the FAQ's however due to GW beeing GW you can argue either way.
That said AL has alot MORE shenanigans for movement.

Good question. I would be allowing it but not taking in RAW(especially as I haven't seen text). But neat ability if allowed. Thanks.

tneva82 wrote:
Good question. I would be allowing it but not taking in RAW(especially as I haven't seen text). But neat ability if allowed. Thanks.

I will later send it to you via PM.

It's also just infantry, the most devastating thing that can be moved by it, is of course, Havocs with reaper chaincannons.
Beyond that, CSM infantry is, not scary. Unless it's marked slaanesh.

Not Online!!! wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 small_gods wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
Has anyone attempted to field a footslogging Alpha legion marine list yet?

I've played a list with csm, chosen and havocks on foot. But not pure footslogging marines.

The movement/deepstrike tricks are really useful and great for playing the mission. It's great to be able to brig down a min unit of marines turn 5 to grab that important objective.

Sorry. Not that familiar with chaos rules but does Alpha Legion have some special rule allowing T5 deep strike?

Alpha legion has renascent infiltration, which allows you to remove a unit and deepstrike it next turn during the game. I don't know IF you are allowed to do that after turn 3, due to beeing a stratagem and codex / supplements taking precedent over rulebooks and FAQ's I'd assume that renascent infiltration does indeed bypass this due to beeing written AFTER the FAQ's however due to GW beeing GW you can argue either way.
That said AL has alot MORE shenanigans for movement.

I think we're all good tge faq rules are talking about a unit that is not set up on the battlefield at the start of the game. Renascent infiltration is for units that are already on battlefield like on wings of fire, more where they came from and tide of traitors there's no turn limitation.

What are people's thoughts on I am Alphrius? Can we generate from new AL warlord traits and if so it could be worth using on Terminator lord with lots of options?

It's not just the ability to kill that's so useful. You know what's the most common target for my da jump's generally after turn 1 and def after turn 2?

Grots.

Guess how scary unit of grots is?-) Albeit this isn't as good as da jump as it's turn delayed but I can come up with plenty of reasons to deep strike cheap units around even if it's not that killy.

On the contrary super killy units I generally want to keep on board doing killy stuff rather than spend turn in reserve.

To my knowledge I am alpharius refers to the dex traits?



Automatically Appended Next Post:

tneva82 wrote:
It's not just the ability to kill that's so useful. You know what's the most common target for my da jump's generally after turn 1 and def after turn 2?

Grots.

Guess how scary unit of grots is?-) Albeit this isn't as good as da jump as it's turn delayed but I can come up with plenty of reasons to deep strike cheap units around even if it's not that killy.

On the contrary super killy units I generally want to keep on board doing killy stuff rather than spend turn in reserve.

It's more defensive applicable due to the turn inbetween.
And sure , it has more uses to it.

I think it also makes your opponent carry on having to deepstrike screen. Even a unit of combi bolter chosen will down a key character or two if they get the chance.

That makes them more focused on survival and less focused on objectives. I think in a weird way, if you take out a few key units with oblits and the like. You can easily outscore with an AL list rather than attempting to table everyone.

Not Online!!! wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
Good question. I would be allowing it but not taking in RAW(especially as I haven't seen text). But neat ability if allowed. Thanks.

I will later send it to you via PM.

It's also just infantry, the most devastating thing that can be moved by it, is of course, Havocs with reaper chaincannons.
Beyond that, CSM infantry is, not scary. Unless it's marked slaanesh.

Obliterators arent scary ?

small_gods wrote:
What are people's thoughts on I am Alphrius? Can we generate from new AL warlord traits and if so it could be worth using on Terminator lord with lots of options?

You roll randomly for a warlord trait from codex CSM. But, when that character is killed you can choose any warlord trait for any character. You could use it to give your true warlord a second warlord trait during the game. IAA has no limitation what character you choose, and what warlord trait you can give him. Unfortunately you cant give him clandestine twice for -2 to hit

My question to you then is, Why do you need to move the oblits with Renascent.......

saint_red wrote:

Niiru wrote:

saint_red wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:
*snip*

Why not both?

Just take an air wing of hellblades for vox scream, it's easier to pull off/harder for them to shut down especially with the mobility. I actually think Emperors children have better warp talons and jump lords.

*snip*

While it's fun to imagine boning those fish folk, kroot are criminal at 4ppm and with their pregame 7" scout your probably never touching anything worth while, and even if you somehow pile in and do, all their heavy lifting comes on flying platforms

You are missing a lot of the picture here. We Have Come For You means units with FLY cannot fall back. That is the whole point. It lets your otherwise extremely fragile Warp Talons grab any units without needing to tri-point and be completely safe from shooting in your opponent's turn. Additionally, NLs have access to a +1 to hit strat (Prey on the Weak) if they have greater leadership than the unit they are fighting. Because we are marines we have high LD and the NL legion trait effectively means that you win ties. The only armies that will have higher leadership than you will be Necrons and Orks with Mob Rule.

Let's recap. Night Lords bring the following to the table:

3D6 charge

Strat to turn off auras

Almost always available +1 to hit

Trap non-vehicles in combat

Fall back and charge

Legion trait that's kinda useful

Emperor's Children bring:

Turn one charge dice into a 6

Combat drugs - good but expensive and maybe better used elsewhere

Legion trait that's not useful

I can't really see how you can present the case that EC have better jump infantry. Their charge strat is actually lower odds to get you into combat than 3D6 is too.

Not the person you're talking to, but a couple things stand out here -

1) You list all the NL strats that improve the Warp Talons, but not all the EC ones. You missed out the one that gives you bonus attacks for every kill you make, for a start, which seems like it would murder hordes and pretty much any infantry screens. There's also the ability to get -3AP on some of your attacks, but not sure if that works out as worthwhile.

2) I can't remember the exact maths, but I'm pretty sure that the EC roll of an auto 6 works out as better odds of getting into charge range than 3D6. I think 3D6 gets you up to ~72%? and the auto6 gets you up to at least 83% (possibly higher, not sure how to work it out beyond that).

Edit - 3) You say the EmpChil legion trait isn't useful, but it's actually very useful for warp talons. Means that in the enemy turn, when the enemy fight back (especially if they're forced to remain in combat with tri or whatever), the warp talons get to attack first. Which means the enemy will get a bunch less attacks to throw back at them. Best defence is murder. Can save a lot of lives.

Night Lords seems more resilient and tactical, EmpChil seems more killy. (Edit - I wrote this before I realised about the legion trait. EmpChil is probably more resilient in combat because of it, but Night Lords may win out depending on what aura they shut off. Both situational.) I think both have their uses. I certainly think both are the most viable uses for jump troops out of all the current options.

Although if you're planning to use a lot of jump / assault units.... why not do what I do and take both? 2CP gets you two units into combat on turn 2. Just a thought.

You're right that I missed the bonus attacks strat. It's only good against weak 1w models though. For instance, against Primaris it is a multiplier of 1.16 which is not efficient. If you are NL you can just take MoK to fight twice for 3CP which doubles your damage and is twice as CP efficient as the EC option.

The strat for -3AP is useless on a unit that's already -2AP. The strat is good for units like Noise Marines but that's not what we're talking about here.

The EC trait IS rubbish. You need to be multicharged for it to work which very rarely happens in 8th edition. Even then, the first unit that charges you will not have too much trouble with 1w 3+ models.

The best resilience is not murder. It's not getting shot. Any army you charge as EC will fall back and then pound your 19ppw models with shooting. This is not an option against Night Lords.

Finally, because you are Night Lords and you can pin screens in combat with you, you have effectively 2 fight phases to wipe a unit. EC only have one because your enemy is just going to fall back in their turn.

NL Warp Talons are significantly better than EC ones. EC have other strategies that they are good at but for pure raptor strike disruption style stuff NL have it in the bag.

I'm not trying to talk you out of using night lords, I like them a lot. But in the current game state you better actually kill things. 10 single wound marines are not durable at all, so I think it's a red heron if your trying to tie down too many things and if your already pouring resources and CP into a unit to get it into combat where it does it's job then I'd rather kill them because your not considering the plethora of rules out their that can unlock units without falling back. The obvious one is smite, then there relics and psychic powers, you also have to be aware of heroic interventions, warlord traits etc.

For me the best two parts of the Night lord boost were vox scream and the trait that makes an aura 1" but even those are dead abilities to some armies. Vox scream doesn't do much to Necrons, Tau, Guard, Nids, Eldar. Your basically taking that for Marines, which I agree is massive, especially in the current state of affairs but thats where I start to run the numbers, primaris with shock assault will EAT warp talons and it only gets worse if characters intervene.

That's why I like the idea of an air wing of helblades added to the others. You get the incredibly powerful vox scream and three strong fliers. You could stay pure nightlords and still be strong though of course.

EDIT Also I have to disagree with the remark that AP -3 is useless compared to -2. We just saw an entire space marine release where doctrines did literally just that and you can see how much of an impact 1 more AP can have. It's especially good for EC since they want more kills to fuel more attacks.

Not Online!!! wrote:
My question to you then is, Why do you need to move the oblits with Renascent.......

For the same reason you do it on RCC havocs. To get them somewhere where they can shoot something. Or to pull them out of melee, when they can fallback, and be more than 3" away from enemy models.

 Red Corsair wrote:
your not considering the plethora of rules out their that can unlock units without falling back. The obvious one is smite, then there relics and psychic powers, you also have to be aware of heroic interventions, warlord traits etc.

I don’t think an ability is useless just because counterplay exists.

At the end of the day, you aren’t going to win a game with a 95pt unit. The rest of your army will still have to contribute their piece.

saint_red wrote:


The strat for -3AP is useless on a unit that's already -2AP. The strat is good for units like Noise Marines but that's not what we're talking about here.

I'm not sure whether it's CP efficient, but it's certainly not useless. As others have said, the SM doctrine that added -1AP ended up being pretty powerful. You'd only use it against certain opponents. In fact it goes quite well with the extra-attacks stratagem which you also said wasn't very good because it only worked against hordes. Between these two strats you have one thats great against weak hordes and one thats good against elite units with saves. A nice varied toolbox.

saint_red wrote:

The EC trait IS rubbish. You need to be multicharged for it to work which very rarely happens in 8th edition. Even then, the first unit that charges you will not have too much trouble with 1w 3+ models.

No, you just have to be in combat for two turns, which with proper model placement is possible (and not really that uncommon). Or with Slaanesh allies (which as EC you can easily get).

saint_red wrote:

The best resilience is not murder. It's not getting shot. Any army you charge as EC will fall back and then pound your 19ppw models with shooting. This is not an option against Night Lords.

Finally, because you are Night Lords and you can pin screens in combat with you, you have effectively 2 fight phases to wipe a unit. EC only have one because your enemy is just going to fall back in their turn.

Warp Talons deepstrike (so not getting shot on turn 1 anyway) and turn off overwatch (so not getting shot turn 2 either). You have options as EC to lock enemies in combat, and unlike NL you always get to attack first (as you point out before, the enemy unit isn't going to have trouble killing 1w 3+ models in combat, so your NL talons will just die in the enemy turn to melee while the EC talons survive).


As I say, both are good, I have no intention of turning anyone off of NL warp talons (I plan to run them myself). But it's not as simple as "NL is the best, EC is worthless". EC is more likely to do more damage, and depending on the army is also more likely to survive longer. NL can be more tactical and shut down enemy characters and trap any infantry by themselves without needing careful placement or allies. Both can do work. Personally I prefer the NL option, but mostly for fluff reasons.

 Red Corsair wrote:


For me the best two parts of the Night lord boost were vox scream and the trait that makes an aura 1" but even those are dead abilities to some armies. Vox scream doesn't do much to Necrons, Tau, Guard, Nids, Eldar. Your basically taking that for Marines, which I agree is massive, especially in the current state of affairs but thats where I start to run the numbers, primaris with shock assault will EAT warp talons and it only gets worse if characters intervene.

I think you're underestimating the versatility of vox scream. Almost all armies rely on aura abilities.

You can stop tau declaring kayun, you can shut down strackan buffing up guardsmen and bullgryns, you can make Abbadon just a fancy daemon prince or same for gman, caul and azreal.

Also it will stop a lot of aura warlord traits like grudges and master of soulforges.

It only is useless against knights and crons as far as I can see.

 small_gods wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
Has anyone attempted to field a footslogging Alpha legion marine list yet?

I've played a list with csm, chosen and havocks on foot. But not pure footslogging marines.

The movement/deepstrike tricks are really useful and great for playing the mission. It's great to be able to brig down a min unit of marines turn 5 to grab that important objective.

I plan on making a fluffy 100% footslogging Alpha Legion army using only marines. I think the new abilities make it very possible. Combined with specialist detachments you can easily get 4-5 warlords running around, and if I am Alpharius procs correctly you can have a guy with 3 WLT (I am Alpharius, generic CSM one, and whatever they already have)the points drops made it a lot cheaper to do so too, I gained a whole extra squad or two and that was with running hammers on the lords.

The key I think is to abuse your shenanigans as much as possible. Terminators, chosen, havoc's, and obliterators are what I plan on being my bread and butter, along with jump pack lords and sorceror, and a dark apostle to provide buffs with a key firebase unit. All the strats are cheap, and the relics/WLTs give huge utility. Renascent Infiltration seems like it could be used every turn and with enough units to use it (heck even just 5 man csm squads with combiplas/plas) it could be a key strat for the army. Makes units like chosen have a lot more utility. I have a feeling if you just made your troops cultists and let your regular marines be chosen you could do a lot of damage with that ability, shunting units around the map.

I feel like alpha legions strength is it's infantry. All the abilities interact with them, and combined with mods and lack of good targets for AT weapons you can mess up your opponent's ability to use half his armory. Plus you can just deny the ability to target key units and can ambush units that drop in to pick off others, so even units like lascannon havoc's become very tough to stop, since you can do stuff like park a dark apostle next to them for -2 to hit or just use conceal, and then use VoTLW/endless cacophony to hit back on your turn. The key is to a have a ton of units that can pull that wombo combo, and then just ensure your opponent can't stop all of them. Yeah he may kill havoc's in the back, but can he kill Las havoc's, the chain cannon havoc's infiltrated in, the terminators and obliterators dropping in, and the renascent drop of 6 plas chosen all from going off?

The other strat is the sheer utility available in how you use the warlord traits and relics. Any event that let's you pick most of your stuff at the start of each game will make them nasty. Basically you make your true warlord Alpharius and make your specific relic one you know you'll always need, like hydras wail. Then at the start of the game look at the opponents list and decide if you need your terminator Lord to be a character sniper, Mindveil teleporting objective grabber with the ability to redeploy part of your army turn one, make him impossible to target with hit mods to conceal deepstriking units, etc etc. You can really tailor what the army does to a pretty crazy degree just based on how a few characters are loaded out.

I don't think it'll take top table, but it'll be a game to remember, that's for sure. At least, as long as you have cp to fuel it

Sounds like a fun challenge. Do you find you'd be able to fill out a brigade? How are you farming CPs?

 Red Corsair wrote:
*snip*

Niiru wrote:
*snip*

AP-3 is on a 6. It's not useful for Warp Talons. You are paying 1CP to upgrade maybe ~5 attacks from AP-2 to AP-3. That will get you maybe one extra wound against power armoured targets.

Tri-pointing from deep strike doesn't happen against good players.

Good players will not stand around and let you mince them in their turn. They will fall back and shoot you. In fact, even bad players will do this. Your EC are not getting to fight in your enemy's turn and as such their trait is not useful.

Nobody has seriously used Excess of Violence in the last two and a half years it's been available to us and that's not changing now. It's OK in a pinch but it's mostly not very good. NL +1 to hit is demonstrably good. Being able to fight twice from MoK strat is very good.

EC can't pin down FLY units.

 Red Corsair wrote:

For me the best two parts of the Night lord boost were vox scream and the trait that makes an aura 1" but even those are dead abilities to some armies. Vox scream doesn't do much to Necrons, Tau, Guard, Nids, Eldar. Your basically taking that for Marines, which I agree is massive, especially in the current state of affairs but thats where I start to run the numbers, primaris with shock assault will EAT warp talons and it only gets worse if characters intervene.

You are severely underestimating how good Vox Scream is. For example, it is incredible against Tau because you can turn off Saviour Protocols of the drone unit protecting a Riptide. You can turn off Orikan's +1 to RP and 5++ invuln save auras. Turn off advance + charge and morale immunity auras that an Ork Warboss gives. Turn off Painboy FnP auras. Turn Abaddon's Fearless and re-roll auras off. Turn off Synapse. Turn off Unquestioning Loyalty, morale immunity and +1 hit auras that the GSC HQs have. There is obviously incredible utility against the more aura heavy armies like Marines.

EC are not bad. Feel free to use EC Warp Talons if you want to but it is not the most competitive choice available to us.

saint_red wrote:

You are severely underestimating how good Vox Scream is. For example, it is incredible against Tau because you can turn off Saviour Protocols of the drone unit protecting a Riptide. You can turn off Orikan's +1 to RP and 5++ invuln save auras. Turn off advance + charge and morale immunity auras that an Ork Warboss gives. Turn off Painboy FnP auras. Turn Abaddon's Fearless and re-roll auras off. Turn off Synapse. Turn off Unquestioning Loyalty, morale immunity and +1 hit auras that the GSC HQs have. There is obviously incredible utility against the more aura heavy armies like Marines.

You've opened my eyes to that...thanks!

I'm thinking of NL airwing of 2x helltalons and a baledrake for this.

 Don Qui Hotep wrote:
Sounds like a fun challenge. Do you find you'd be able to fill out a brigade? How are you farming CPs?

It's something I'm still working on. I'm very new to chaos and have just finished the models I need for my first stab at a 2k list. Im not doing a brigade simply because I don't have bikes yet. If I can score some at a decent price they're definitely something to consider I'm sure. The brigade seems like a good way to go, thanks for the suggestion.

Plan in the meantime is 3 batallions to sustain all the CP spent on relics and devestation battery, but man do you lose a lot of points for actually killing stuff. The jump from cultists to barebones marine squads in troops is often enough to get another obliterator or most of the way to a havoc squad, which doesn't help.

I will be the first to admit that a smart player would probably just spam daemon princes/disco lords and then cultists and fire support units from there. That would definitely keep attention off of your havoc's, termis, etc. Fooled around with it a bit in battlescribe and it seems like a solid concept, I just don't know enough about the crazy daemon units to kit them out properly. If I was running my guys at a tournament, bare minimum I'd probably do would be switch to cultists. A barebones marine squad ain't bad (well, it is) but I think for 15pts more than a 10 man cultist squad it actually isn't much less durable what with -1 to hit, 3+ vs 6+, T4, and indifference to morale as long as it's not getting hit by smite or something. Worth doing math on perhaps when I get a chance.

I dunno, I think it'll be fun. Nothing is screaming to me I'm going to get tabled turn 1 but it'll definitely be a list that will lose the moment you screw up. There isn't much room for error when you have no cultists to absorb your mistakes. But I have other armies for serious play, this is more just to have as a painting project and try something out of my comfort zone gameplay wise. If it's not 100% efficient I'll live.

Did we really have someone say the Children Legion Trait was good? LOL

A airwing detachment of 3 Night Lord Heldrakes is mandatory I think. Not sure I'm gonna fit it in, but it's mandatory. Even well equipped armies won't be able to kill 3 in a turn, and that means shutting down auras.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Did we really have someone say the Children Legion Trait was good? LOL

A airwing detachment of 3 Night Lord Heldrakes is mandatory I think. Not sure I'm gonna fit it in, but it's mandatory. Even well equipped armies won't be able to kill 3 in a turn, and that means shutting down auras.

Been thinking about it and I just can't see heldrakes being playable still at 150ish points. I think an outrider of bikes and warptalons might be pretty decent for around the same points.

I have found the children trait is very useful in a few situations.

1. When I get charged by multiple enemy units. It saves me cp which is always nice.

2. When I charge with multiple "weak" squads to tie units up. I have had instances when I have charged enemy units with my base noise marines and my opponent has decided to stay in combat because falling back wouldn't do them much good which ment I got to fight first in combat. A prime example of this is guardsmen using strat to fire even while in cc with the hope of keeping me locked in combat through the turn so I cant charge his tanks.


I am NOT saying that the emporers children tactic is an amazing game changing trait. Far from it. But none of them are very good, I find chaos works best by playing off of their other strengths (soup, deamons helping like marked chaos marine deamon engines, picking nurgle because of their strat or slaanesh for theirs, that kind of thing). Alpha legion is definitely the best trait for chaos, but there are more things to think about than just a trait that only affects infantry and hellbrutes.