What would the two HQ be for this Sneaky Seventeen? Lord & Sorc? A DP with a cheeky Relic?
I'd go for a disco lord with We Are Alpharius, to unlock Clandestine, making it a base -2 to hit, that's very nice on a disco.
Second choice, assuming free use of relics and traits, would be a termi lord with Vipers Wail and Headhunter trait, with Slaanesh mark. If you really need to, you can target and burn down most HQs in the game for 3cp (Vets and cacophany). He drops 6.5 damage on a SM cap for example.
Second choice, assuming free use of relics and traits, would be a termi lord with Vipers Wail and Headhunter trait, with Slaanesh mark. If you really need to, you can target and burn down most HQs in the game for 3cp (Vets and cacophany). He drops 6.5 damage on a SM cap for example.
There is no vipers wail. How do you get 6.5 MW with 8 shots (assuming you mean vipers bite), when only unmodified 6s are 1MW ?
Second choice, assuming free use of relics and traits, would be a termi lord with Vipers Wail and Headhunter trait, with Slaanesh mark. If you really need to, you can target and burn down most HQs in the game for 3cp (Vets and cacophany). He drops 6.5 damage on a SM cap for example.
There is no vipers wail. How do you get 6.5 MW with 8 shots (assuming you mean vipers bite), when only unmodified 6s are 1MW ?
Think he is referring to Viper's bite. its a relic combi bolter S5, -3 AP and 2D. The 6.5 damage probably includes any possible MW and the regular damage that goes through the Invul of the SM captain. The relic is rapid fire 2, so thats 4 shots. If you use vets and cacophany on it, that's 8 shots and wounding on 2s. I am kinda keen to try this because this gives us CSM sniper abilities which we have not been able to have up till now. Even if we have to use a warlord trait and a relic to get the best effect out of it.
Personally I have had a ton of luck with the nurgle oblits, master of possession, and nurgle gnarlmaw tree. Dropping the oblits and tree in turn 2 once you take out that setups number 1 enemy (small arms fire from large blobs, something chaos can easily take care of t1 thankfully) and then getting that master up to them.... man those things are incredibly hard to move and should be there the rest of the game which to me makes it a better setup than the slaanesh drop and endless co. The slaanesh setup seems to get nuked directly after deployment so you get 1 great round then nothing, over the course of the game nurgle can give you some staying power (plus the ability to regenerate wounds with the strat is useful)
Azuza001 wrote: Personally I have had a ton of luck with the nurgle oblits, master of possession, and nurgle gnarlmaw tree. Dropping the oblits and tree in turn 2 once you take out that setups number 1 enemy (small arms fire from large blobs, something chaos can easily take care of t1 thankfully) and then getting that master up to them.... man those things are incredibly hard to move and should be there the rest of the game which to me makes it a better setup than the slaanesh drop and endless co. The slaanesh setup seems to get nuked directly after deployment so you get 1 great round then nothing, over the course of the game nurgle can give you some staying power (plus the ability to regenerate wounds with the strat is useful)
So you summon the Tree into play on turn 2 ? What if your summoner gets sniped? Can summoning be denied like psychic ? Honestly I never tried summoning before.
Azuza001 wrote: Personally I have had a ton of luck with the nurgle oblits, master of possession, and nurgle gnarlmaw tree. Dropping the oblits and tree in turn 2 once you take out that setups number 1 enemy (small arms fire from large blobs, something chaos can easily take care of t1 thankfully) and then getting that master up to them.... man those things are incredibly hard to move and should be there the rest of the game which to me makes it a better setup than the slaanesh drop and endless co. The slaanesh setup seems to get nuked directly after deployment so you get 1 great round then nothing, over the course of the game nurgle can give you some staying power (plus the ability to regenerate wounds with the strat is useful)
So you summon the Tree into play on turn 2 ? What if your summoner gets sniped? Can summoning be denied like psychic ? Honestly I never tried summoning before.
There are many ways to plant the nurgle tree. You can deploy it in the deployment phase, you can deepstrike it for 1CP T2, or you can summon it T1. Summoning cant be denied, and its 99% guaranteed to work, because you need to roll a 3 for the nurgle tree, with 3D6. All you need is a chaos character, which didnt move in his movement phase. I have thought about using forward operatives, which lets an infantry unit move 9" before the first turn. Then you would need a screen of 30 cultists before him, which also move with forward operatives, if you dont have first turn. If your opponent has snipers you could conceal the character. Or you need a lord with -4 to hit, which could still be smitten, or flamed. Or you could summon in the psychic phase with a MOP, if he is WE and uses the strat for it the psychic power is successful and cant be denied.
However, against SM it really doesnt matter. They can remove/ignore the cover bonus, or shoot it with hellblasters, which have AP-5, in the first or second turn, depending on weapon type and what doctrine is active. LC have AP-4 in the first turn.
Yeah, I got the name wrong on the relic. You got the idea though right? A sniper in CSM is big news, and aside from his range, he's one of the most deadly in the game. (RF2, S5, -3, 2D)
As for -2 (base), that's not something to sniff at on a discolord. Either you leave him to be a piñata and soak a lot of T1 fire, or you double down with a benediction, if not needed elsewhere, to make him -3. That's the break point for most opponents to look elsewhere for targets, in my experience. So yeah, I stand by my picks, and can recommend them both from experience.
Yeah I didn't get the point of the difference between making one character (Arkos) -5 and the LD possibly -4. Seemed an odd point to make since LD will mulch most things it comes into combat with and Arkos has.... a melta.
Yeah, I got the name wrong on the relic. You got the idea though right? A sniper in CSM is big news, and aside from his range, he's one of the most deadly in the game. (RF2, S5, -3, 2D)
I get the idea. But its insanely expensive to take out a single character. You can spend up to 2CP pregame for the second warlord trait and the second relic. And then its 3CP for votlw and EC. Not every character is T4.
As for -2 (base), that's not something to sniff at on a discolord. Either you leave him to be a piñata and soak a lot of T1 fire, or you double down with a benediction, if not needed elsewhere, to make him -3. That's the break point for most opponents to look elsewhere for targets, in my experience. So yeah, I stand by my picks, and can recommend them both from experience.
Stacking negatives to hit doesnt always help. SM can completely ignore to hit penalties, or even shoot you with auto hit flamers.
Yeah, I got the name wrong on the relic. You got the idea though right? A sniper in CSM is big news, and aside from his range, he's one of the most deadly in the game. (RF2, S5, -3, 2D)
I get the idea. But its insanely expensive to take out a single character. You can spend up to 2CP pregame for the second warlord trait and the second relic. And then its 3CP for votlw and EC. Not every character is T4.
As for -2 (base), that's not something to sniff at on a discolord. Either you leave him to be a piñata and soak a lot of T1 fire, or you double down with a benediction, if not needed elsewhere, to make him -3. That's the break point for most opponents to look elsewhere for targets, in my experience. So yeah, I stand by my picks, and can recommend them both from experience.
Stacking negatives to hit doesnt always help. SM can completely ignore to hit penalties, or even shoot you with auto hit flamers.
While its a lot of CP. Only the 1 CP spent on the warlord trait is needed. The relic could be from a free relic. The strategems are optional. Few other relics may make as big an impact. The ability to have such a deadly sniper cannot be underestimated. You don't have to set out to snipe the biggest badass character out there. Even if he doesn't use VOTLW and cacophny, and snipes out a secondary psyker or company commander each turn, as long as he doesn't die. His impact over the course of the entire game will be huge. Imagine an imperial guard army with all its commisars, company ccommanders, etc all sniped out. Or if he is just forced to hide them all out of line of sight where their auras are useless. Most psykers aren't that tough. Sniping out the psykers in an army also has great impact. People jsut aren't expecting a CSM army to have snipers, so when he gets rolled out, I believe it would be a nasty surprise for the opponent.
Yeah, I got the name wrong on the relic. You got the idea though right? A sniper in CSM is big news, and aside from his range, he's one of the most deadly in the game. (RF2, S5, -3, 2D)
I get the idea. But its insanely expensive to take out a single character. You can spend up to 2CP pregame for the second warlord trait and the second relic. And then its 3CP for votlw and EC. Not every character is T4.
As for -2 (base), that's not something to sniff at on a discolord. Either you leave him to be a piñata and soak a lot of T1 fire, or you double down with a benediction, if not needed elsewhere, to make him -3. That's the break point for most opponents to look elsewhere for targets, in my experience. So yeah, I stand by my picks, and can recommend them both from experience.
Stacking negatives to hit doesnt always help. SM can completely ignore to hit penalties, or even shoot you with auto hit flamers.
While its a lot of CP. Only the 1 CP spent on the warlord trait is needed. The relic could be from a free relic. The strategems are optional. Few other relics may make as big an impact. The ability to have such a deadly sniper cannot be underestimated. You don't have to set out to snipe the biggest badass character out there. Even if he doesn't use VOTLW and cacophny, and snipes out a secondary psyker or company commander each turn, as long as he doesn't die. His impact over the course of the entire game will be huge. Imagine an imperial guard army with all its commisars, company ccommanders, etc all sniped out. Or if he is just forced to hide them all out of line of sight where their auras are useless. Most psykers aren't that tough. Sniping out the psykers in an army also has great impact. People jsut aren't expecting a CSM army to have snipers, so when he gets rolled out, I believe it would be a nasty surprise for the opponent.
This is why I like the idea of bringing a Terminator Lord along you can spend 1cp for an extra relic and 1cp for an extra WL trait.
He can then have his pick of a few good combos, sniper lord, repositioning tricks, hyrdas wail, Pick whichever fits your opponent best!
He's dropped a lot of hqs for me in my games now, and is an auto include for me. He killed Trajan over 2 turns last game. It's not winning a game on its own, but it brings something to my lists that is otherwise impossible, that's all...
You'd probably be able to extend that concept by bringing in a few TS sorcerers and Ahriman.
- Ahriman: Doombolt, Infernal Gaze, Firestorm (Bolt of Change)
- Sorcerer: Warptime, Prescience
- Sorcerer: Death Hex, (Gaze of Fate)
As far as character sniping goes, not only do you have Ahriman's contribution but Death Hex would be fairly useful to get through 3+/3++ saves. It's a cheap detachment (307pts) and you can make it CP-efficient by generating re-rolls off a Sorcerer.
Yeah I think the key thing with the sniper lord is he doesn't have to always be a sniper lord. If he had to be your main warlord it wouldn't be worth it, but since he doesn't count and is decided on a per game basis, no matter what format you play he can do whatever you need him to. So if you run into something the sniper ability is useless for you just use him as a redployment trick, -3 to hit at shooting for helping conceal things, or have some fun with something like faceless commander and Mindveil and have a terminator Lord teleporting all over the board.
My only complaint is to make him as flexible as possible you have to take a dinky little powersword, which makes him pretty useless in melee. One of the best things about the sniper lord is he's still a chaos terminator Lord, so give him a chainfist or something and he can snipe a character and then go do his thing in melee as well. And you can't tie him up since we can fall back and shoot with a strat. I mainly run mine with a chainfist because that's what betrayal at calth gave the guy, but a fist would be ok too I'm sure.
Main thing is to use him as more than just a sniper I think. Just sniping with him alone is kind of steep at 100pts but if he's dropping in with obliterators, havocs, etc then he can give a lot more use out of that 100pts
Warptalons and winged daemon princes make pretty short work of them.
Outside of CSM TSon sorcerers can smite one out of the sky per turn (Ahriman and 2 Pals) or a chaos knight with the helm of warpsite mushes flyers for fun and they're tough enough to do it for at least 2 turns.
Yeah they hit hard but are only t6, bolter fire can do damage to these things since they are going to be close anyways to use their flamers. Following that, a slaanesh havoc team of auto cannons are pretty effective, especially with a reroll involved. Finally deamon princes will tear through them like a hot knife in butter, 8 attacks base with the talons hitting on 2's wounding on 3's with ap-2 and 2 dmg? Have something weaken one and the dp can finish it with ease.
Warptalons and winged daemon princes make pretty short work of them.
Outside of CSM TSon sorcerers can smite one out of the sky per turn (Ahriman and 2 Pals) or a chaos knight with the helm of warpsite mushes flyers for fun and they're tough enough to do it for at least 2 turns.
I charged one with my winged prince and he took 6 d-flamer wounds on overwatch and failed to kill it ;_;
Warptalons and winged daemon princes make pretty short work of them.
Outside of CSM TSon sorcerers can smite one out of the sky per turn (Ahriman and 2 Pals) or a chaos knight with the helm of warpsite mushes flyers for fun and they're tough enough to do it for at least 2 turns.
I charged one with my winged prince and he took 6 d-flamer wounds on overwatch and failed to kill it ;_;
You're basically forced into doing Raptorial Host with the Warp Talons. It's fething stupid but there ya go. You would do them as World Eaters, get a regular Warlord with the bonus to charging and then the Raptor Host Warlord adding to that. It's hard to not make the charge at that point.
Emporers children or Night lords are a decent shout also if you're wanting easier charges. Although with Emporers children you're missing out on double fighting.
I've had my skullreaver prince fail to kill one before but that's dice for you.
One final option is to take a contorted epitome. You can tag 2 or 3 with warp talons (preferablynight lords), stick epitome in middle of them, cast Phantasmagoria then they have to roll 6 or lower on 3d6 or not be able to fall back. And then boom they pop because they don't fly their minimum distance!
Eldar flyers rely on smoking you off the table – kind of like a faster, more annoying Tau player. The firepower is brutal, but the board control is garbage – flyers can’t get objectives, so in an ITC mission, earning “Hold more” is usually a pretty simple affair.
If you choose this option, you need to identify which planes need to die first and murder them – quickly. Playing orks? The nightwings need to die first, because they have loads of anti infantry. Running your Custodes? Smoke the crimson hunters and Hemlocks, because those things can put you down.
Playing the mission often means trying to kill planes, which is one of the most unsatisfying things in 40k, because the innate minuses to hit means it takes a ton of firepower to put them down. However, that being said, keep in mind that each plane lost is a significant blow to the Eldar flyer – most players don’t take scary ground units (maybe a few Nightspinners), so they’re losing their killy units.
How you'd deal with them tactically is going to depend on your units, but basically remove a critical component to their offence and then dominate the objectives. Against 3x CHE and 3x Hemlocks, they don't have a lot of volume so they'll have a very difficult time removing things like Cultists under a 5++.
I just had a rather wild idea for a list. Has anyone tried a ton of terminators in an alpha legion list before? Or in a world eaters list. Both had the pre game strategem that lets you move up a unit 9 inches.
So, a terminator with a chain axe and a combi bolter is now just 26 points. You can take 3 squads of 10. Spend 3 points to move these guys 9 inches up.
So, with their 5 inch move, they are now 14 inches up the board in turn 1. They can then pretty much shoot and reach anything with thedir combi bolters cos those are 24 inche range, so opponent needs to deploy outside of 38 inches.
14 inches up, they are also within range to charge or take over any mid table objectives. Then you can sort of dominate the midboard with those 30 terminators and your characters while the rest of your army does other stuff.
I mean, 30 2+, 2W terminators is pretty resilient. Plus -1 to hit cos they are Alpha legion. And 30 such terminators only cost 780 points. And at 4 shots each, 30 terminators will put out 120 shots each round. Should be more than enough to handle any chaff.
I am not asking for them to get across the board to charge the opponent backline. Just asking for them to dominate and stand on the midboard and form a bulwark for the rest of your characters too.
You can take them in different marks too, and further protect them if you want to. Like make one nurgle and cast miasma on it, make the other slanaash and cast the 5+ FNP on it.
If all three squads get into midboard cover, they will be 1+ save. And outside of dedicated melee units, I think few units want to tangle in melee with 30 combi axe attacks plus whatever characters you have nearby. With this setup, even if I go second, I would still use the strategem to move them up 9 inches. They are meant to soak up the enemy fire.
For a world eaters list, it can work too. Just less protection. So turn 1, pregame use the strategem, move 3 squads of 10 WE termis up 9 inches. Turn 1, mvoe them forward another 5 inches, the rest of your berserkers can be in Rhinos who will move advance forward along side them. So, the terminators will clear the chaff, so that when turn 2, the berserkers get out of their Rhinos and charge, there will be no chaff left to block. Do a one, two punch with WE warptalons dropping in on a raptorial host on turn 2 and it will be a really nasty turn 2 punch. You could maybe even try fitting it into a WE brigade if you are running warp talons too in such a list. Just bring stuff like 3 mauler fiends or 3 venom crawlers to fill out the heavy support slot.
Azuza001 wrote: Personally I have had a ton of luck with the nurgle oblits, master of possession, and nurgle gnarlmaw tree. Dropping the oblits and tree in turn 2 once you take out that setups number 1 enemy (small arms fire from large blobs, something chaos can easily take care of t1 thankfully) and then getting that master up to them.... man those things are incredibly hard to move and should be there the rest of the game which to me makes it a better setup than the slaanesh drop and endless co. The slaanesh setup seems to get nuked directly after deployment so you get 1 great round then nothing, over the course of the game nurgle can give you some staying power (plus the ability to regenerate wounds with the strat is useful)
So you summon the Tree into play on turn 2 ? What if your summoner gets sniped? Can summoning be denied like psychic ? Honestly I never tried summoning before.
There are many ways to plant the nurgle tree. You can deploy it in the deployment phase, you can deepstrike it for 1CP T2, or you can summon it T1. Summoning cant be denied, and its 99% guaranteed to work, because you need to roll a 3 for the nurgle tree, with 3D6. All you need is a chaos character, which didnt move in his movement phase. I have thought about using forward operatives, which lets an infantry unit move 9" before the first turn. Then you would need a screen of 30 cultists before him, which also move with forward operatives, if you dont have first turn. If your opponent has snipers you could conceal the character. Or you need a lord with -4 to hit, which could still be smitten, or flamed. Or you could summon in the psychic phase with a MOP, if he is WE and uses the strat for it the psychic power is successful and cant be denied.
However, against SM it really doesnt matter. They can remove/ignore the cover bonus, or shoot it with hellblasters, which have AP-5, in the first or second turn, depending on weapon type and what doctrine is active. LC have AP-4 in the first turn.
Point of order - Gnarlmaw don’t have the Daemonic Ritual rule. The only thing that can ‘summon’ one is Horrticulous.
Belsibub wrote: I have to ask, how Do you get -5 to hit on a AL lord?
I think that's only very specifically after stacking every single possible alpha legion warlord trait, strategem, relic and plus the chapter traits on it, and maybe by making him nurgle and casting miasma of pestilence on him too.
Belsibub wrote: I have to ask, how Do you get -5 to hit on a AL lord?
Benediction of darkness -1 to hit (ranged), AL legion trait -1 to hit (ranged), clandestine warlord trait -1 to hit, shadeblade -1 to hit, miasma of pestilence -1 to hit.
Belsibub wrote: I have to ask, how Do you get -5 to hit on a AL lord?
Benediction of darkness -1 to hit (ranged), AL legion trait -1 to hit (ranged), clandestine warlord trait -1 to hit, shadeblade -1 to hit, miasma of pestilence -1 to hit.
I thought the shadeblade replaces a power sword? (Discordant doesn't have a power Sword)
Belsibub wrote: I have to ask, how Do you get -5 to hit on a AL lord?
Benediction of darkness -1 to hit (ranged), AL legion trait -1 to hit (ranged), clandestine warlord trait -1 to hit, shadeblade -1 to hit, miasma of pestilence -1 to hit.
I thought the shadeblade replaces a power sword? (Discordant doesn't have a power Sword)
A chaos lord can get -5, a disco lord only can get -4 to hit.
Belsibub wrote: I have to ask, how Do you get -5 to hit on a AL lord?
Benediction of darkness -1 to hit (ranged), AL legion trait -1 to hit (ranged), clandestine warlord trait -1 to hit, shadeblade -1 to hit, miasma of pestilence -1 to hit.
I thought the shadeblade replaces a power sword? (Discordant doesn't have a power Sword)
A chaos lord can get -5, a disco lord only can get -4 to hit.
Ahh misread. Thanks!
That being said, unless your army really doesn't have any other threats I do think -4 is a good enough discouragement.
Not much point in a CL having -5 vs range since they have character protection.
Hmmm, have a question. If I have a battle forged army of say a Night lord's army. And then I bring a fortification known as a Nortlith Crown. Can I make this Nortlith Crown Alpha legion and then gain Alpha legion strategems ?
Anyone have an opinion on Slaanesh talons (rerolling wounds +d6 attacks) vs Tzeentch sword (negating invul) on a daemon prince?
At first I thought negating invuln was amazing for matchups like custodes and sisters.... but starting to think that more attacks and more saves (due to rr wounds) will net you better results.
grouchoben wrote: Needs to be said more. CSM got some great rules in PA...
They really didn't.
All it did was cement Alpha Legion as still the best. Someone said "outside Legion Traits" which is part of the damned problem. Then there's the fact they have a straight worse relic Strat, legion locked Strats that are generic to Loyalists. The strats don't fix problems that some Legions have in the first place.
You're delusional to think the rules were any good. You're just lucky you get any of the table scraps.
weaver9 wrote: Anyone have an opinion on Slaanesh talons (rerolling wounds +d6 attacks) vs Tzeentch sword (negating invul) on a daemon prince?
Offence is the easiest thing to calculate in 40k, but what you need to know is the purpose of the weapon. Removing Primaris squads one by one? Talons. Looking to drop a 3++ HQ? Sword.
This is a basic variance calculator site if you'd like to check for yourself. Generally the Claws have more damage potential but whiffing against a Warlord HQ is perhaps more game-breaking. I wouldn't say I'm an authority on prob and stats, but this gives you an idea.
weaver9 wrote: Anyone have an opinion on Slaanesh talons (rerolling wounds +d6 attacks) vs Tzeentch sword (negating invul) on a daemon prince?
Offence is the easiest thing to calculate in 40k, but what you need to know is the purpose of the weapon. Removing Primaris squads one by one? Talons. Looking to drop a 3++ HQ? Sword.
This is a basic variance calculator site if you'd like to check for yourself. Generally the Claws have more damage potential but whiffing against a Warlord HQ is perhaps more game-breaking. I wouldn't say I'm an authority on prob and stats, but this gives you an idea.
The three extra attacks are more likely to harm the 3++ HQ usually. Assuming T4, that's 1.8 (average 3.5 extra attacks for the Talons) vs 1.7. Assuming T5-7 (for whatever reason those get a 3++, but I guess it happens), that's 1.35 vs 1.2.
AL won overall, but NL, WB, IW & AL all got game-changing buffs, Slayer. You see that don't you? Sure, the faction is balanced around soup. But CSM got the most exciting new strats of PA so far.
Unless you're expecting a PA release to be on a par with a codex+supplement rewrite?
grouchoben wrote: AL won overall, but NL, WB, IW & AL all got game-changing buffs, Slayer. You see that don't you? Sure, the faction is balanced around soup. But CSM got the most exciting new strats of PA so far.
Unless you're expecting a PA release to be on a par with a codex+supplement rewrite?
No they really didn't. Night Lords got the one strat to stop auras and that's about it.
Hmmm. That's majestically underselling F&F imo. Here's the list of decent buffs we received:
Malefic Tome, Exalted Possession, Malevolent Covenant, Dark Council, Revered Hosts, Vox Scream, Prey On The Weak, We Have Come for You, Raptor strike, Clandestine, master of diversion, headhunter+Hydra's Wail, conceal, Sabotaged Armory, retreat, renascent infiltration, ambush, Daemonsmith, Siege Master, Stoic Advance, Axe of the Forgemaster, Methodical Annihilation, Dour Duty, Tank Hunters, cannon fodder, Armour of Abhorrence, Remnant , Raiment Revulsive, Combat Elixirs and finally, Honour The Prince...
grouchoben wrote: Hmmm. That's majestically underselling F&F imo. Here's the list of decent buffs we received:
Malefic Tome, Exalted Possession, Malevolent Covenant, Dark Council, Revered Hosts, Vox Scream, Prey On The Weak, We Have Come for You, Raptor strike, Clandestine, master of diversion, headhunter+Hydra's Wail, conceal, Sabotaged Armory, retreat, renascent infiltration, ambush, Daemonsmith, Siege Master, Stoic Advance, Axe of the Forgemaster, Methodical Annihilation, Dour Duty, Tank Hunters, cannon fodder, Armour of Abhorrence, Remnant , Raiment Revulsive, Combat Elixirs and finally, Honour The Prince...
So nopie, you're dead wrong as far as I can see.
Naming basically everything in there does nothing to help your case, especially when you list things like Prey On The Weak, Axe of the Forgemaster, Revered Host and all that garbage for stuff that isn't going to get into melee in the first place LOL, and the fact you're listing mostly Alpha Legion stuff says it all. Iron Warriors did good outside the fact you're still better off going with Alpha Legion.
Honour the Prince & Raptor Strike allow you to get off DS melee attacks now, and the Rainment allows you to shut off overwatch without taking warptalons, which are good now for NL too. So I don't really see what your beef is with me listing a few CC buffs in there (a few, mind). Prey on the Weak is solid for NL, given their inherent Ld debuff, either cc or shooting. The Axe is a good relic weapon. Revered Host makes possessed primaris killers, it's a big deal for possessed.
I haven't listed everything at all! I've listed the things that are good enough to see play, about 10-20% of what we got in F&F. That you could make that mistake kind of helps to show how much stuff is in that book.
I don't really have any beef with you Slayer, but you're dead wrong on this.
grouchoben wrote: Honour the Prince & Raptor Strike allow you to get off DS melee attacks now, and the Rainment allows you to shut off overwatch without taking warptalons, which are good now for NL too. So I don't really see what your beef is with me listing a few CC buffs in there (a few, mind). Prey on the Weak is solid for NL, given their inherent Ld debuff, either cc or shooting. The Axe is a good relic weapon. Revered Host makes possessed primaris killers, it's a big deal for possessed.
I haven't listed everything at all! I've listed the things that are good enough to see play, about 10-20% of what we got in F&F. That you could make that mistake kind of helps to show how much stuff is in that book.
I don't really have any beef with you Slayer, but you're dead wrong on this.
Raptorial Host was already getting stuff into melee from Deep Strike, so there's no need to use the super bad Night Lords who are but useless basically outside Vox Scream. With your "good relic weapon" axe, you get basically everything you need from a Power Fist, which means you freed up one of your limited Relic slots, simply because Mortal Wounds on a chance against vehicles is overly specific and not worth it. Possessed are still bad at getting anywhere without Alpha Legion, so it doesn't matter if you make them Primaris "killers" LOL
So no I'm not wrong. You just decided the table scraps are good for whatever reason.
Okay, think I'll leave this here, not sure it's worthwhile! If you can't see the value in those very good listed strats, relics and traits then fair enough.
Hoping on getting a little clarity on the Red Butchers strat. Can you play that on a terminator lord? I'm thinking a red butcher lord with gore father would be filthy.
weaver9 wrote: Anyone have an opinion on Slaanesh talons (rerolling wounds +d6 attacks) vs Tzeentch sword (negating invul) on a daemon prince?
Offence is the easiest thing to calculate in 40k, but what you need to know is the purpose of the weapon. Removing Primaris squads one by one? Talons. Looking to drop a 3++ HQ? Sword.
This is a basic variance calculator site if you'd like to check for yourself. Generally the Claws have more damage potential but whiffing against a Warlord HQ is perhaps more game-breaking. I wouldn't say I'm an authority on prob and stats, but this gives you an idea.
The three extra attacks are more likely to harm the 3++ HQ usually. Assuming T4, that's 1.8 (average 3.5 extra attacks for the Talons) vs 1.7. Assuming T5-7 (for whatever reason those get a 3++, but I guess it happens), that's 1.35 vs 1.2.
Thanks for this everyone. I ended up going for the talons and indeed they proved good.
I originally wanted a way to bypass invuls, but the extra attacks and rerolls won out in my mind for generalist purposes.
The broader list of triple LoS also ended up doing very well!
grouchoben wrote: Honour the Prince & Raptor Strike allow you to get off DS melee attacks now, and the Rainment allows you to shut off overwatch without taking warptalons, which are good now for NL too. So I don't really see what your beef is with me listing a few CC buffs in there (a few, mind). Prey on the Weak is solid for NL, given their inherent Ld debuff, either cc or shooting. The Axe is a good relic weapon. Revered Host makes possessed primaris killers, it's a big deal for possessed.
I haven't listed everything at all! I've listed the things that are good enough to see play, about 10-20% of what we got in F&F. That you could make that mistake kind of helps to show how much stuff is in that book.
I don't really have any beef with you Slayer, but you're dead wrong on this.
Raptorial Host was already getting stuff into melee from Deep Strike, so there's no need to use the super bad Night Lords who are but useless basically outside Vox Scream. With your "good relic weapon" axe, you get basically everything you need from a Power Fist, which means you freed up one of your limited Relic slots, simply because Mortal Wounds on a chance against vehicles is overly specific and not worth it. Possessed are still bad at getting anywhere without Alpha Legion, so it doesn't matter if you make them Primaris "killers" LOL
So no I'm not wrong. You just decided the table scraps are good for whatever reason.
Have you actually played with the new rules?
I've gone from not being able to take a pure csm list to tournaments to not wanting to take my daemons. It's made the difference between struggling to compete to winning all three games in my last tournament, having much more success vs friends. I've used alpha legion, night lords and Iron Warriors. I don't have noise marines or possessed but I'm sure they'll work well too.
Is it just that CSM players want to be downtrodden? Or are you basing it on playing people?
Clearly. You don't take the Tzeentch sword for a better statistical mean damage, you take it to eliminate variance. That's why I posted a site specifically so you can examine statistical distributions.
You also mentioned "three extra attacks" and didn't post any of your actual calculations. Put bluntly man, I don't really trust you even to crunch stats on a public forum about a game. You clearly have some psychological issues and while I sympathise, if you want me to take you seriously: communicate clearly, demonstrate your evidence as best possible, and be passive-aggressive never.
I don't remember seeing your edit at the time I posted either. Just saying.
Clearly. You don't take the Tzeentch sword for a better statistical mean damage, you take it to eliminate variance. That's why I posted a site specifically so you can examine statistical distributions.
You also mentioned "three extra attacks" and didn't post any of your actual calculations. Put bluntly man, I don't really trust you even to crunch stats on a public forum about a game. You clearly have some psychological issues and while I sympathise, if you want me to take you seriously: communicate clearly, demonstrate your evidence as best possible, and be passive-aggressive never.
I don't remember seeing your edit at the time I posted either. Just saying.
I edited to clarify that the three extra attacks came from the Talons rather than just giving extra attacks for no reason, and only caught that after pressing post.
And if you really wanted to eliminate variance you'd just take the mortal wound axe anyway. So there's honestly no point to the Sword.
grouchoben wrote: Honour the Prince & Raptor Strike allow you to get off DS melee attacks now, and the Rainment allows you to shut off overwatch without taking warptalons, which are good now for NL too. So I don't really see what your beef is with me listing a few CC buffs in there (a few, mind). Prey on the Weak is solid for NL, given their inherent Ld debuff, either cc or shooting. The Axe is a good relic weapon. Revered Host makes possessed primaris killers, it's a big deal for possessed.
I haven't listed everything at all! I've listed the things that are good enough to see play, about 10-20% of what we got in F&F. That you could make that mistake kind of helps to show how much stuff is in that book.
I don't really have any beef with you Slayer, but you're dead wrong on this.
Raptorial Host was already getting stuff into melee from Deep Strike, so there's no need to use the super bad Night Lords who are but useless basically outside Vox Scream. With your "good relic weapon" axe, you get basically everything you need from a Power Fist, which means you freed up one of your limited Relic slots, simply because Mortal Wounds on a chance against vehicles is overly specific and not worth it. Possessed are still bad at getting anywhere without Alpha Legion, so it doesn't matter if you make them Primaris "killers" LOL
So no I'm not wrong. You just decided the table scraps are good for whatever reason.
Have you actually played with the new rules?
I've gone from not being able to take a pure csm list to tournaments to not wanting to take my daemons. It's made the difference between struggling to compete to winning all three games in my last tournament, having much more success vs friends. I've used alpha legion, night lords and Iron Warriors. I don't have noise marines or possessed but I'm sure they'll work well too.
Is it just that CSM players want to be downtrodden? Or are you basing it on playing people?
I have and I'm not impressed with anything. It's just GW feeding us table scraps and certain posters lapping it up like we should be thanking GW for being so generous.
weaver9 wrote: Anyone have an opinion on Slaanesh talons (rerolling wounds +d6 attacks) vs Tzeentch sword (negating invul) on a daemon prince?
Offence is the easiest thing to calculate in 40k, but what you need to know is the purpose of the weapon. Removing Primaris squads one by one? Talons. Looking to drop a 3++ HQ? Sword.
This is a basic variance calculator site if you'd like to check for yourself. Generally the Claws have more damage potential but whiffing against a Warlord HQ is perhaps more game-breaking. I wouldn't say I'm an authority on prob and stats, but this gives you an idea.
The three extra attacks are more likely to harm the 3++ HQ usually. Assuming T4, that's 1.8 (average 3.5 extra attacks for the Talons) vs 1.7. Assuming T5-7 (for whatever reason those get a 3++, but I guess it happens), that's 1.35 vs 1.2.
Thanks for this everyone. I ended up going for the talons and indeed they proved good.
I originally wanted a way to bypass invuls, but the extra attacks and rerolls won out in my mind for generalist purposes.
The broader list of triple LoS also ended up doing very well!
If you really want to bypass Invuls, you can get the Axe which just deals mortals on a 4+. If you really need to suicide a particular character, Murder Sword will surpass it.
Nobody is saying anything about thanking GW we're saying that the new rules are good. Some are fun and situational, others are amazing in many situations.
Take night lords, they can now shut off a character, stop something falling back, charge on 3d6, 1cp to add one to hit, fall back and charge, give a lord a 2+ save and always in cover and get up to 17 attacks from a winged daemon prince. None of which was available beforehand. I can't see how you can think this is not good for CSM??
I think its the combination of the news rules plus the impact of so many stuff getting a points cut in the 2019 chapter approved. CSM is fun and great to play now. Honestly.
I was amazed I managed to fit in a brigade without that much trouble. I mean, spawn are just 20 points now. If you are already running enough of the other slots, 60 more points for like 7 extra command points is a no brainer. And if you want your FA slots to have teeth, bikes and warp talons are cheap enough they will at least pull their weight if you put them into the list.
So its not just the new rules from Faith and Fury. all the points drop in the new Chapter approved was huge too. It has strengthened a lot of CSM's army lists. (unless you only ran plague bearers and TS daemon princes).
I have made so many different lists since Faith and Fury and the new chapter approved dropped. They all look viable and fun and thematic to boot. Ok, maybe they are not the meanest thing out there competitively, but they at least look like they will give me a game as opposed to just losing terribly most of the time. Even black legion and renegades CSM got a boost because of the points drop and you can pair them with the other legions in a list too.
We get 3 detachments usually to make a list for 2000 points. So you can mix up to 3 legions to gain different flavours of strategems, relics and such. CSM has a big toolbox and the point drop in CA has made a lot of stuff viable.
small_gods wrote: Nobody is saying anything about thanking GW we're saying that the new rules are good. Some are fun and situational, others are amazing in many situations.
Take night lords, they can now shut off a character, stop something falling back, charge on 3d6, 1cp to add one to hit, fall back and charge, give a lord a 2+ save and always in cover and get up to 17 attacks from a winged daemon prince. None of which was available beforehand. I can't see how you can think this is not good for CSM??
They're really not good though. We got a handful of good stuff and that's it. Alpha Legion is still the best one and the rest didn't get anything meaningful. That is unless you want to try and defend Revered Host as amazing somehow.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: That is unless you want to try and defend Revered Host as amazing somehow.
You don't consider damage output useful?
It is on a unit that can actually make it to combat. Word Bearers don't have that ability with their Possessed, so no I don't consider it useful. You're opponent would literally have to decide it would be funny to charge Hellblasters into your Possessed so you could activate the Stratagem.
Now if it were a generic Stratagem it would be awesome for Alpha Legion. However it isn't, so that point doesn't matter at all, to be honest.
I would definitely disagree with Slayer. many of the legions all got stuff that made their armies not only more thematic, but also better when using those thematic units.
So, IW Havocs, vehicles, oblits, all got buffed in faith and fury from their strategems and warlord traits. They may not be IH level of opness, but they definitely got buffed.
Nighlords raptors and warptalons got buffed for sure. Plus warptalons got cheaper. And some nightlords strategems are very good.
Even world bearers got some buffs. Like that strategem that makes your psychic go off for sure.
And Emperors children noise marines are downright scary now, if an army list is built around having a big component of noise marines.
Even world eaters lists got buffs too. With the new WE strategems, like that 6 inch consolidate strategem, and then one that lets you push forward WE units 9 inches before game starts. They got a warlord trait that increases charge by 1 inch too. Thats a big deal for a WE army. and zerkers and CSM both got a points drop. So did the Lord of skulls. A WE army with mass angry marines, 1 LOS, and stuff all charging up the field is a viable list.
I think we shouldn't compare to SM level of opness. I don't really want CSM to be a carbon copy of SM, but just with spikes. I want CSM to have its own flavour. They have primaris, we have daemon engines. etc etc.
Eldenfirefly wrote: I would definitely disagree with Slayer. many of the legions all got stuff that made their armies not only more thematic, but also better when using those thematic units.
So, IW Havocs, vehicles, oblits, all got buffed in faith and fury from their strategems and warlord traits. They may not be IH level of opness, but they definitely got buffed.
Nighlords raptors and warptalons got buffed for sure. Plus warptalons got cheaper. And some nightlords strategems are very good.
Even world bearers got some buffs. Like that strategem that makes your psychic go off for sure.
And Emperors children noise marines are downright scary now, if an army list is built around having a big component of noise marines.
Even world eaters lists got buffs too. With the new WE strategems, like that 6 inch consolidate strategem, and then one that lets you push forward WE units 9 inches before game starts. They got a warlord trait that increases charge by 1 inch too. Thats a big deal for a WE army. and zerkers and CSM both got a points drop. So did the Lord of skulls. A WE army with mass angry marines, 1 LOS, and stuff all charging up the field is a viable list.
Except all those things Alpha Legion are going to be doing better, so does it really matter? No it does not. Now I do think Night Lord Heldrakes are really good (gotta really make use of that giant base to get the most of Vox Scream) but that's it outside Alpha Legion. I'm not taking crappy Night Lords infantry just to prevent falling back. Nor am I taking crappy Children Noise Marines for a one-shot wonder, because there's already PLENTY of that in the codex as is.
You can take up to three different type of detachments in an army. You can take a 3 FA nightlords detachment if you hate the idea of FA infantry so much, or just 1 patrol night lord detachment, so 1 HQ, 1 cultist squad and that 1 helldrake.
I don't know why you think Emperor's children noise marines are crappy... You can make one squad T5 (from strategem) and then cast delightful agonies on them. a 20 man strong squad of T5 with 5+ FNP with the kind of shooting power that Emperor's children noise marines have is not bad at all... Anyway, even if they die, they get to shoot back. I don't know why you think they are bad at all...
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: It is on a unit that can actually make it to combat. Word Bearers don't have that ability with their Possessed, so no I don't consider it useful.
That's got nothing to do with the Revenant Hosts stratagem, which also applies to Exalted Possession HQs and Greater Possessed.
As to how to deliver Possessed units into combat, maybe you have it backwards. A lot of opponents want to sit back and castle in their DZ. If you have enough resilient board control, guarantee them they will lose on VP if they do this. If the enemy enters the midfield, then suddenly it's a lot more realistic to gank them with a 7" footslogger.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: It is on a unit that can actually make it to combat. Word Bearers don't have that ability with their Possessed, so no I don't consider it useful.
That's got nothing to do with the Revenant Hosts stratagem, which also applies to Exalted Possession HQs and Greater Possessed.
As to how to deliver Possessed units into combat, maybe you have it backwards. A lot of opponents want to sit back and castle in their DZ. If you have enough resilient board control, guarantee them they will lose on VP if they do this. If the enemy enters the midfield, then suddenly it's a lot more realistic to gank them with a 7" footslogger.
Greater Possessed cannot get to melee either. So my point stands. Also it's wonderful you want to use the Strat on an HQ unit. That's a whole Warlord Trait, relic (because let's be honest you're probably doing that with the Axe relic so stuff won't fall back) and a Strat. Guess what? He'll still die next turn to anything worth a damn LOL.
Also it has everything to do with it because you want to make the most of the Strat itself. If you want to use it on one dude that's on you for wasting resources.
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Eldenfirefly wrote: You can take up to three different type of detachments in an army. You can take a 3 FA nightlords detachment if you hate the idea of FA infantry so much, or just 1 patrol night lord detachment, so 1 HQ, 1 cultist squad and that 1 helldrake.
I don't know why you think Emperor's children noise marines are crappy... You can make one squad T5 (from strategem) and then cast delightful agonies on them. a 20 man strong squad of T5 with 5+ FNP with the kind of shooting power that Emperor's children noise marines have is not bad at all... Anyway, even if they die, they get to shoot back. I don't know why you think they are bad at all...
They're bad because Children have a worthless Legion rule and the amount of resources poured into Noise Marines doesn't boost their performance a lot compared to the amount of buffs other Legions already get. It's not hard to understand.
Also imagine wanting to spend that many points on a squad that's easily stopped by a single model getting into melee with them LOL.
If spending a lot of points on a squad thats easily stopped by a single model getting into melee range of them is a bad idea, then that applies to just about every single ranged unit in the game that cannot fall back and shoot or isn't a Lord of skulls. So, obliterators, Havocs are all bad then?
In any case. your one single model in melee range will need to survive being hit by 20 noise marines in combat... Thats 60 attacks...
With strategems, the EC noise marines are rocking 120 shots of Damage 2... with a +1 to wound (VOTLW). That's a max 240 points of potential damage. You think that is somehow low? @_@ As a comparision, a squad of 3 obliterators shooting twice with max 3 dmg rolled on dmg both time will only do a max potential damage of 108 points of damage. Just how much damage must a unit put out before you consider the damage to be good?
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Also imagine wanting to spend that many points on a squad that's easily stopped by a single model getting into melee with them LOL.
Heroically intervene (easy with the 6" stratagem), do it with a unit that has the Daemon keyword, fight in the psychic phase on your turn with Hysterical Frenzy... this isn't that complicated is it?
I think the core problem is you literally have no problem-solving ability. Or maybe you just don't play any army concept that does anything but point-and-click rules abuse? Iron Hands are that way, don't let the door hit you on your way out.
Alkaline_Hound wrote: Out of world eaters, emperor's children and death guard, which faction uses the least number of models in general? Ie. Which is the most elite army?
All can be made elite relatively easily, but if I had to choose an army to have a low model count I'd go deathguard. You'd have to use plague marines for troops, plagueburst crawlers are great for the points, blightlord Terminators are a great elite unit and mortarion is a useable and as elite as it gets.
If you want to make world eaters or emporers children elite you could look at using daemon engines and minimum troops as most people use a lot of khorne bezerkers and noise marines retrospectively. I'd also say that bezerkers are hard to use well, as you need to have a good understanding of the mele phase, piling in, heroic intervention etc. With emporers children and death guard you have less mass close combat so you have a less steep learing curve for a new army.
Alkaline_Hound wrote: Out of world eaters, emperor's children and death guard, which faction uses the least number of models in general? Ie. Which is the most elite army?
Really depends on the build.
Deathguard followed by WE is my take.
With WE your body count is naturally going to be lower since your cult troops are 16ppm. (15 technically). But you fill in the rest of the army with generic csm stuff, so entirely build dependent there.
Deathguard have a lot of literal elite units and some big boys in plagueburst, morty, deathshroud termies.
Eldenfirefly wrote: If spending a lot of points on a squad thats easily stopped by a single model getting into melee range of them is a bad idea, then that applies to just about every single ranged unit in the game that cannot fall back and shoot or isn't a Lord of skulls. So, obliterators, Havocs are all bad then?
In any case. your one single model in melee range will need to survive being hit by 20 noise marines in combat... Thats 60 attacks...
With strategems, the EC noise marines are rocking 120 shots of Damage 2... with a +1 to wound (VOTLW). That's a max 240 points of potential damage. You think that is somehow low? @_@ As a comparision, a squad of 3 obliterators shooting twice with max 3 dmg rolled on dmg both time will only do a max potential damage of 108 points of damage. Just how much damage must a unit put out before you consider the damage to be good?
It IS low and it dies to a stiff breeze. No I will not be taking Noise Marines seriously and I recommend you do the same. Also the point isn't that Noise Marines aren't going to fight back. The point is you're paying for the Sonic weapons, so nobody will care if they fight back.
Also Obliterators don't NEED that many resources poured into them and they can naturally get around. Noise Marines cannot. Enjoy your fiddly threat range!
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Also imagine wanting to spend that many points on a squad that's easily stopped by a single model getting into melee with them LOL.
Heroically intervene (easy with the 6" stratagem), do it with a unit that has the Daemon keyword, fight in the psychic phase on your turn with Hysterical Frenzy... this isn't that complicated is it?
I think the core problem is you literally have no problem-solving ability. Or maybe you just don't play any army concept that does anything but point-and-click rules abuse? Iron Hands are that way, don't let the door hit you on your way out.
Ah yes, pointing out the army didn't gain anything means I'm looking for point and click, and I should L2P. Go make the same argument in the Grey Knight Tactica. I'll wait.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Go make the same argument in the Grey Knight Tactica. I'll wait.
Nah. YOU go and make the same argument you're making here once their PA rules drop, if you really feel like getting kicked around there too.
I don't see you offering any actual tactical ideas or solutions, so why don't we end this particular conversation? It's beyond stale.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Also Obliterators don't NEED that many resources poured into them and they can naturally get around. Noise Marines cannot. Enjoy your fiddly threat range!
Oblits are deepstrikers and have a tiny footprint, they aren't remotely comparable. They're a point-and-click unit that exists to apply firepower. 20x Noise Marines at T5, 5+++ are going to be board control with Obsec and fill a compulsory troops slot. Their firepower isn't the only reason you'd consider fielding them.
Eldenfirefly wrote: If spending a lot of points on a squad thats easily stopped by a single model getting into melee range of them is a bad idea, then that applies to just about every single ranged unit in the game that cannot fall back and shoot or isn't a Lord of skulls. So, obliterators, Havocs are all bad then?
In any case. your one single model in melee range will need to survive being hit by 20 noise marines in combat... Thats 60 attacks...
With strategems, the EC noise marines are rocking 120 shots of Damage 2... with a +1 to wound (VOTLW). That's a max 240 points of potential damage. You think that is somehow low? @_@ As a comparision, a squad of 3 obliterators shooting twice with max 3 dmg rolled on dmg both time will only do a max potential damage of 108 points of damage. Just how much damage must a unit put out before you consider the damage to be good?
It IS low and it dies to a stiff breeze. No I will not be taking Noise Marines seriously and I recommend you do the same. Also the point isn't that Noise Marines aren't going to fight back. The point is you're paying for the Sonic weapons, so nobody will care if they fight back.
Also Obliterators don't NEED that many resources poured into them and they can naturally get around. Noise Marines cannot. Enjoy your fiddly threat range!
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Also imagine wanting to spend that many points on a squad that's easily stopped by a single model getting into melee with them LOL.
Heroically intervene (easy with the 6" stratagem), do it with a unit that has the Daemon keyword, fight in the psychic phase on your turn with Hysterical Frenzy... this isn't that complicated is it?
I think the core problem is you literally have no problem-solving ability. Or maybe you just don't play any army concept that does anything but point-and-click rules abuse? Iron Hands are that way, don't let the door hit you on your way out.
Ah yes, pointing out the army didn't gain anything means I'm looking for point and click, and I should L2P. Go make the same argument in the Grey Knight Tactica. I'll wait.
I wonder why ALL your messages try to support the idea that everything in gak except Alpha Legion.
If you have some advice or original idea everyone here is glad to listening to you but post after post of useless whining is pointless, useless and simple compel the readers to waste their time.
Could you please write in POSITIVE form, explaining your gameplay and the paradigm that you use, what you deploy and which role it has within your list?
small_gods wrote: I'd also say that bezerkers are hard to use well, as you need to have a good understanding of the mele phase, piling in, heroic intervention etc.
There's a useful article here about theorycrafting and playing a Beserker list against a Tau gunline. I won't spoil it but they seem to be able to compete.
Overall, the list is all-in on melee. The Cultists sit back and hold objectives, while everything else charges forward. If I’m doing things right, the Berzerkers arrive around the same time as the warp talons and terminators, and they deal a monster blow on turn 2 that cripples the opponent and leaves them struggling to find a way out of combat. The only things I have to really worry about are lists that are super-heavy on units with FLY and getting blown off the table turn 1, but I’ve got the Rhinos and Benediction of Darkness for some protection, plus I can be conservative with my deployment since I’m not trying to get the whole army into combat on T1, just a unit or two.
Unquestionbly, it's more complex to run a CC list. But it seems viable if you have a good grasp of the core concepts.
small_gods wrote: I'd also say that bezerkers are hard to use well, as you need to have a good understanding of the mele phase, piling in, heroic intervention etc.
There's a useful article here about theorycrafting and playing a Beserker list against a Tau gunline. I won't spoil it but they seem to be able to compete.
Overall, the list is all-in on melee. The Cultists sit back and hold objectives, while everything else charges forward. If I’m doing things right, the Berzerkers arrive around the same time as the warp talons and terminators, and they deal a monster blow on turn 2 that cripples the opponent and leaves them struggling to find a way out of combat. The only things I have to really worry about are lists that are super-heavy on units with FLY and getting blown off the table turn 1, but I’ve got the Rhinos and Benediction of Darkness for some protection, plus I can be conservative with my deployment since I’m not trying to get the whole army into combat on T1, just a unit or two.
Unquestionbly, it's more complex to run a CC list. But it seems viable if you have a good grasp of the core concepts.
Yeah it's a good article showing the possibilities with perhaps one of the factions that didn't get all the shiney toys in PA. I'm used to playing mele with bloodletter bombs and warptalons. But I sold off my Bezerkers to focus on getting fewer armies but with full rostas.
I think there's a potential list with world eaters possessed, Terminators and bezerkers on foot. You'd need to take a daemon detachment with some nurglings to mask out the mid board in deployment but then with a few CP spent on apocalyptic frenzy and kill maim burn you could be really in your opponents face turn 1 or 2. Saving 300 points in transports could buy you a lot of other threats.
I am toying with using a WE Dark Apostle for illusory supplication along with some WECSM troops and zerkers in Rhinos. So, use the WE strategem to move up the Dark Apostle and the regular CSM on foot. Then turn 1, they move forward another 6 inches while the Rhinos move advance forward into the DA's bubble and pop smoke.
By my calculations, I should have a very decent frontage of 2 Rhinos with zerkers, 15 regular CSM and the dark apostle, all covered by the 5+ invul bubble. If the CSM can make it to midboard cover, its even better still. Now, they will have 2+ normal save and a 5++ invul save. Meanwhile, the Rhinos will be -1 to hit with a 5++ invul save.
Sounds like something that can stand up to some shooting. And the 2nd turn charge will of course, be devastating and glorious.
The reason I am using regular CSM as part of it is that my rationale goes like this: They are there to soak up bullets and prevent the opponent from targeting my DA (sort of using snipers). So, since they are there to be a bullet sponge, then there's no point I make them zerkers which cost more. I am quite ready to lose all 15 CSM from shooting.
Yet, in the event they are ignored, they are still in a position to wreck some damage on chaff. Because these are still WECSM we are talking about. So, they pack a harder punch than normal CSM. So, any major problem with this line of thought? Any big holes in this strategy I didn't spot? : )
Eldenfirefly wrote: I am toying with using a WE Dark Apostle for illusory supplication along with some WECSM troops and zerkers in Rhinos. So, use the WE strategem to move up the Dark Apostle and the regular CSM on foot. Then turn 1, they move forward another 6 inches while the Rhinos move advance forward into the DA's bubble and pop smoke.
By my calculations, I should have a very decent frontage of 2 Rhinos with zerkers, 15 regular CSM and the dark apostle, all covered by the 5+ invul bubble. If the CSM can make it to midboard cover, its even better still. Now, they will have 2+ normal save and a 5++ invul save. Meanwhile, the Rhinos will be -1 to hit with a 5++ invul save.
Sounds like something that can stand up to some shooting. And the 2nd turn charge will of course, be devastating and glorious.
The reason I am using regular CSM as part of it is that my rationale goes like this: They are there to soak up bullets and prevent the opponent from targeting my DA (sort of using snipers). So, since they are there to be a bullet sponge, then there's no point I make them zerkers which cost more. I am quite ready to lose all 15 CSM from shooting.
Yet, in the event they are ignored, they are still in a position to wreck some damage on chaff. Because these are still WECSM we are talking about. So, they pack a harder punch than normal CSM. So, any major problem with this line of thought? Any big holes in this strategy I didn't spot? : )
You may want to tinker with trying Cultists instead of CSM for your screen. Cheaper, more board control, benefit more from 5++, and low Ld isn’t an issue with a DA.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Go make the same argument in the Grey Knight Tactica. I'll wait.
Nah. YOU go and make the same argument you're making here once their PA rules drop, if you really feel like getting kicked around there too.
I don't see you offering any actual tactical ideas or solutions, so why don't we end this particular conversation? It's beyond stale.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Also Obliterators don't NEED that many resources poured into them and they can naturally get around. Noise Marines cannot. Enjoy your fiddly threat range!
Oblits are deepstrikers and have a tiny footprint, they aren't remotely comparable. They're a point-and-click unit that exists to apply firepower. 20x Noise Marines at T5, 5+++ are going to be board control with Obsec and fill a compulsory troops slot. Their firepower isn't the only reason you'd consider fielding them.
The main difference is the rules didn't drop for Grey Knights yet. We HAVE all the rules for Legions. I can make the statements pretty safely, just as well as I can for Blood Angels. It isn't like they provided THAT many rules. Sure, more rules themselves is an improvement by itself, but the question is how much improvement was there? The answer is not a lot to actually matter for the Legions that actually needed it.
Also I already offered advice as necessary, and not bad advice either. So there ya go.
Also there you go with Schrodinger's Noise Marines. You have to apply all those benefits with a cost, and the cost is not worth it. Sad but true.
Eldenfirefly wrote: If spending a lot of points on a squad thats easily stopped by a single model getting into melee range of them is a bad idea, then that applies to just about every single ranged unit in the game that cannot fall back and shoot or isn't a Lord of skulls. So, obliterators, Havocs are all bad then?
In any case. your one single model in melee range will need to survive being hit by 20 noise marines in combat... Thats 60 attacks...
With strategems, the EC noise marines are rocking 120 shots of Damage 2... with a +1 to wound (VOTLW). That's a max 240 points of potential damage. You think that is somehow low? @_@ As a comparision, a squad of 3 obliterators shooting twice with max 3 dmg rolled on dmg both time will only do a max potential damage of 108 points of damage. Just how much damage must a unit put out before you consider the damage to be good?
It IS low and it dies to a stiff breeze. No I will not be taking Noise Marines seriously and I recommend you do the same. Also the point isn't that Noise Marines aren't going to fight back. The point is you're paying for the Sonic weapons, so nobody will care if they fight back.
Also Obliterators don't NEED that many resources poured into them and they can naturally get around. Noise Marines cannot. Enjoy your fiddly threat range!
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Also imagine wanting to spend that many points on a squad that's easily stopped by a single model getting into melee with them LOL.
Heroically intervene (easy with the 6" stratagem), do it with a unit that has the Daemon keyword, fight in the psychic phase on your turn with Hysterical Frenzy... this isn't that complicated is it?
I think the core problem is you literally have no problem-solving ability. Or maybe you just don't play any army concept that does anything but point-and-click rules abuse? Iron Hands are that way, don't let the door hit you on your way out.
Ah yes, pointing out the army didn't gain anything means I'm looking for point and click, and I should L2P. Go make the same argument in the Grey Knight Tactica. I'll wait.
I wonder why ALL your messages try to support the idea that everything in gak except Alpha Legion.
If you have some advice or original idea everyone here is glad to listening to you but post after post of useless whining is pointless, useless and simple compel the readers to waste their time.
Could you please write in POSITIVE form, explaining your gameplay and the paradigm that you use, what you deploy and which role it has within your list?
It's because Alpha Legion got all the stuff that matters. They get a second Warlord at the cost of a single CP, redeployment abilities, an actual Sniper (though how effective for the cost is easily up for debate), all on top of having the best Legion Trait itself. World Eaters got nothing to help with charges outside one Warlord Trait and still need to spend points on a Banner when it is available, Emperor's Children and Word Bearers still have the absolutely useless Legion Traits and have to pour an immense amount of resources to do things other armies can just easily do for half the cost, Night Lords rely on gimmicks outside Vox Scream, and of course who can forget Black Legion, where if you don't run DiscoLords and/or Abigail what's the point of running them?
Eldenfirefly wrote: Yet, in the event they are ignored, they are still in a position to wreck some damage on chaff. Because these are still WECSM we are talking about. So, they pack a harder punch than normal CSM. So, any major problem with this line of thought? Any big holes in this strategy I didn't spot? : )
I think the strategic concept is fine, the major question is how you're going to build the rest of your army. I don't think adding some Cultists is a bad idea, their big footprint is a definite positive. Actually winning depends on mission scoring but you do have an advantage if you back the enemy into a corner and keep them there. If you can manage that, the game is going to depend on you crippling their offense so they can't recover, so your T2 will have to be a bloodbath. Thematic right?
Tempted to try a Master of Executions with Elixir of Slaanesh - 7 attacks on the charge hitting on 2s, wounding most things on 2s feels like a pretty solid investment for only 60 points.
So, anyone tried an EC warp talon bomb yet? 15 Warp Talons with Host Raptorial, +1A from the combat drugs stratagem and the guaranteed charge from Honour the Prince. Costs 3-4 CP (depending on whether you need Tzee- err, Slaanesh to trun one of your dice to a 6) but 61A on the charge with Lightning Claws will scrap anything, even T8+ with Veterans of the Long War (although that could bring the total cost up to a max of 5 CP... ouch).
Anyone have an opinion on Slaanesh talons (rerolling wounds +d6 attacks) vs Tzeentch sword (negating invul) on a daemon prince?
At first I thought negating invuln was amazing for matchups like custodes and sisters.... but starting to think that more attacks and more saves (due to rr wounds) will net you better results.
The problem with the Slaanesh talons on a Daemon Prince is that you lose the base +3A from having 2 sets of talons, so they could actually give you LESS attacks total (albeit those attacks can reroll wound rolls) AND have the potential to inflict a MW on a 1 and prevent you from fighting. I'd 100% go for the Tzeentch sword if you want a high-risk high-reward DP and keep the Slaanesh claws for a smashlord.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Go make the same argument in the Grey Knight Tactica. I'll wait.
Nah. YOU go and make the same argument you're making here once their PA rules drop, if you really feel like getting kicked around there too.
I don't see you offering any actual tactical ideas or solutions, so why don't we end this particular conversation? It's beyond stale.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Also Obliterators don't NEED that many resources poured into them and they can naturally get around. Noise Marines cannot. Enjoy your fiddly threat range!
Oblits are deepstrikers and have a tiny footprint, they aren't remotely comparable. They're a point-and-click unit that exists to apply firepower. 20x Noise Marines at T5, 5+++ are going to be board control with Obsec and fill a compulsory troops slot. Their firepower isn't the only reason you'd consider fielding them.
The main difference is the rules didn't drop for Grey Knights yet. We HAVE all the rules for Legions. I can make the statements pretty safely, just as well as I can for Blood Angels. It isn't like they provided THAT many rules. Sure, more rules themselves is an improvement by itself, but the question is how much improvement was there? The answer is not a lot to actually matter for the Legions that actually needed it.
Also I already offered advice as necessary, and not bad advice either. So there ya go.
Also there you go with Schrodinger's Noise Marines. You have to apply all those benefits with a cost, and the cost is not worth it. Sad but true.
Eldenfirefly wrote: If spending a lot of points on a squad thats easily stopped by a single model getting into melee range of them is a bad idea, then that applies to just about every single ranged unit in the game that cannot fall back and shoot or isn't a Lord of skulls. So, obliterators, Havocs are all bad then?
In any case. your one single model in melee range will need to survive being hit by 20 noise marines in combat... Thats 60 attacks...
With strategems, the EC noise marines are rocking 120 shots of Damage 2... with a +1 to wound (VOTLW). That's a max 240 points of potential damage. You think that is somehow low? @_@ As a comparision, a squad of 3 obliterators shooting twice with max 3 dmg rolled on dmg both time will only do a max potential damage of 108 points of damage. Just how much damage must a unit put out before you consider the damage to be good?
It IS low and it dies to a stiff breeze. No I will not be taking Noise Marines seriously and I recommend you do the same. Also the point isn't that Noise Marines aren't going to fight back. The point is you're paying for the Sonic weapons, so nobody will care if they fight back.
Also Obliterators don't NEED that many resources poured into them and they can naturally get around. Noise Marines cannot. Enjoy your fiddly threat range!
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Also imagine wanting to spend that many points on a squad that's easily stopped by a single model getting into melee with them LOL.
Heroically intervene (easy with the 6" stratagem), do it with a unit that has the Daemon keyword, fight in the psychic phase on your turn with Hysterical Frenzy... this isn't that complicated is it?
I think the core problem is you literally have no problem-solving ability. Or maybe you just don't play any army concept that does anything but point-and-click rules abuse? Iron Hands are that way, don't let the door hit you on your way out.
Ah yes, pointing out the army didn't gain anything means I'm looking for point and click, and I should L2P. Go make the same argument in the Grey Knight Tactica. I'll wait.
I wonder why ALL your messages try to support the idea that everything in gak except Alpha Legion.
If you have some advice or original idea everyone here is glad to listening to you but post after post of useless whining is pointless, useless and simple compel the readers to waste their time.
Could you please write in POSITIVE form, explaining your gameplay and the paradigm that you use, what you deploy and which role it has within your list?
It's because Alpha Legion got all the stuff that matters. They get a second Warlord at the cost of a single CP, redeployment abilities, an actual Sniper (though how effective for the cost is easily up for debate), all on top of having the best Legion Trait itself. World Eaters got nothing to help with charges outside one Warlord Trait and still need to spend points on a Banner when it is available, Emperor's Children and Word Bearers still have the absolutely useless Legion Traits and have to pour an immense amount of resources to do things other armies can just easily do for half the cost, Night Lords rely on gimmicks outside Vox Scream, and of course who can forget Black Legion, where if you don't run DiscoLords and/or Abigail what's the point of running them?
. CSM are in a position where you have to accept that you'll have to spend of bunch of CP and other resources to make them work, I think you (among a lot of other people) are overrating the Alpha legion trait. -1 to hit at range was extremely good when 8th edition was all about long range shooting and hordes. Now that we are in the space marine meta the value of this -1 to hit is a lot less, since space marines have good BS at default, and do a lot of damage closer than 12 inches. It's still a good trait (better than most of the other garbage traits), but not the all star ability it was pre-marines.
The big problem I have with alpha legion as a whole is that they offer know way to super power a single unit like other legions. I keep seeing people try to use Obliterators with Alpha legion, but based on what I've predicted, seen, and tested; Iron warriors are far superior to alpha legion when running them. TJ Lanigan has had some success running possessed under alpha legion, but that type of point denial list is really only good when used correctly (which is hard) and in ITC missions. Outside of these units there doesn't really exist any one model that makes me excited to go Alpha legion.
This isn't to say Alpha legion as whole are bad, but as CSM you have to go all in with one type of strategy. Otherwise we are simply worse marines, and you don't win many competitive games by being worse marines.
Hmm, Salt Donkey, that's a very interesting take. I do sort of agree. SM has many ways to do accurate shooting. So that -1 is overblown. AL did get some interesting strategems though. I do agree with you.
So if I want to run possessed, do I have to build the whole list around them? Are the resources expended on characters, WL traits, HQ’s, stratagems and points as well as possible daemon HQ support buffs worth what you get out of them? Does Daemonic summoning provide reliable enough access to Daemonic HQ’s to buff the possessed? Are they at least fun to push across the board now?
macluvin wrote: So if I want to run possessed, do I have to build the whole list around them? Are the resources expended on characters, WL traits, HQ’s, stratagems and points as well as possible daemon HQ support buffs worth what you get out of them? Does Daemonic summoning provide reliable enough access to Daemonic HQ’s to buff the possessed? Are they at least fun to push across the board now?
You can get a T1 charge very easily as emperor's children. Combat Elixers and warp time along with the honor the prince is 24 +D6.
macluvin wrote: So if I want to run possessed, do I have to build the whole list around them? Are the resources expended on characters, WL traits, HQ’s, stratagems and points as well as possible daemon HQ support buffs worth what you get out of them? Does Daemonic summoning provide reliable enough access to Daemonic HQ’s to buff the possessed? Are they at least fun to push across the board now?
You can get a T1 charge very easily as emperor's children. Combat Elixers and warp time along with the honor the prince is 24 +D6.
I can see how something like that would absolutely wreck MEQ’s in combat. I guess threat saturation would be the strategy to get the possessed to combat and keep them alive. What are you using for that end? Auto cannon havocs? (Sonic) Helbrutes? Defilers? Would you back them up with more possessed squads? What are we doing to make these work? Shooting a single squad of possessed off the table in a single round of shooting is hardly a major commitment of firepower.
. CSM are in a position where you have to accept that you'll have to spend of bunch of CP and other resources to make them work, I think you (among a lot of other people) are overrating the Alpha legion trait. -1 to hit at range was extremely good when 8th edition was all about long range shooting and hordes. Now that we are in the space marine meta the value of this -1 to hit is a lot less, since space marines have good BS at default, and do a lot of damage closer than 12 inches. It's still a good trait (better than most of the other garbage traits), but not the all star ability it was pre-marines.
The big problem I have with alpha legion as a whole is that they offer know way to super power a single unit like other legions. I keep seeing people try to use Obliterators with Alpha legion, but based on what I've predicted, seen, and tested; Iron warriors are far superior to alpha legion when running them. TJ Lanigan has had some success running possessed under alpha legion, but that type of point denial list is really only good when used correctly (which is hard) and in ITC missions. Outside of these units there doesn't really exist any one model that makes me excited to go Alpha legion.
This isn't to say Alpha legion as whole are bad, but as CSM you have to go all in with one type of strategy. Otherwise we are simply worse marines, and you don't win many competitive games by being worse marines.
That has worked exactly not, ever, in the whole history of this dex this design has hindered CSM.
Infact when we are part of a tournament placing, then it is precicsely via obliterators , terminators with combiplas and in form of slaanesh and alpha legion, everything else literally might aswell didn't exist comptetively sofar, beyond the horde of cultists, but with the ammount of marines arround that build there is also bound to get toasted.
Further if you really want to go all in on that one supposed stratagey, AL still has the best possible combinations for that, what with the ammount of movement and deployment shenanigans you can pull.
Which is more powerfull if done correctly then 90% of this codex and supplement as a whole.But actually dependant on skill and not on gotcha combos as the whole dex is built around. ( also you still can build the normal gotcha combo with termites and obliterators in to the list.)
but personally i am just sick of the design of it atm.
infact it has gotten so bad imo, that you literally don't get anything worth it's points in the whole dex imo and only get to make a unit overachieve and that 's it.
macluvin wrote: So if I want to run possessed, do I have to build the whole list around them? Are the resources expended on characters, WL traits, HQ’s, stratagems and points as well as possible daemon HQ support buffs worth what you get out of them? Does Daemonic summoning provide reliable enough access to Daemonic HQ’s to buff the possessed? Are they at least fun to push across the board now?
You can get a T1 charge very easily as emperor's children. Combat Elixers and warp time along with the honor the prince is 24 +D6.
That's all nice and dandy but Possessed are extremely dependant on nearby buff vectors for them to reach their potential. AFAIK you can only get the Master of Possession power on them that allows them to reroll their A at the start of the fight phase when you send them off alone like that. Unless I'm missing something obvious?
macluvin wrote: So if I want to run possessed, do I have to build the whole list around them? Are the resources expended on characters, WL traits, HQ’s, stratagems and points as well as possible daemon HQ support buffs worth what you get out of them? Does Daemonic summoning provide reliable enough access to Daemonic HQ’s to buff the possessed? Are they at least fun to push across the board now?
You can get a T1 charge very easily as emperor's children. Combat Elixers and warp time along with the honor the prince is 24 +D6.
That's all nice and dandy but Possessed are extremely dependant on nearby buff vectors for them to reach their potential. AFAIK you can only get the Master of Possession power on them that allows them to reroll their A at the start of the fight phase when you send them off alone like that. Unless I'm missing something obvious?
You should buy the faith and fury book, and look up those stratagems mentioned.
Hey guys... got a bit of a newbie question about relics and purchasing extras relics.
Is there a relic cap per detachment? Or, could I get a relic on every HQ in my army so long as I have the CPs and it conforms to basic requirements (ie, must have powersword to swap it with murder sword)?
According to ArmyBuilder, it looks like you can only use the 1 CP for 1 relic once, and if you wanted additional relics you have to use the 3CP one for 2 more. Is that right? If so, then the theoretical max per detachment is 4 relic? (1 for WL, 1 for 1CP and 2 for 3CP)...right?
Chewie wrote: Hey guys... got a bit of a newbie question about relics and purchasing extras relics.
Is there a relic cap per detachment? Or, could I get a relic on every HQ in my army so long as I have the CPs and it conforms to basic requirements (ie, must have powersword to swap it with murder sword)?
According to ArmyBuilder, it looks like you can only use the 1 CP for 1 relic once, and if you wanted additional relics you have to use the 3CP one for 2 more. Is that right? If so, then the theoretical max per detachment is 4 relic? (1 for WL, 1 for 1CP and 2 for 3CP)...right?
Or is it that way for the whole army?
Thanks!
You can have your 1 default relic for 0cp, or
you can have two total relics (an additional one relic) for 1cp, or
you can have three total relics (an additional two relics) for 3cp.
Chewie wrote: Hey guys... got a bit of a newbie question about relics and purchasing extras relics.
Is there a relic cap per detachment? Or, could I get a relic on every HQ in my army so long as I have the CPs and it conforms to basic requirements (ie, must have powersword to swap it with murder sword)?
According to ArmyBuilder, it looks like you can only use the 1 CP for 1 relic once, and if you wanted additional relics you have to use the 3CP one for 2 more. Is that right? If so, then the theoretical max per detachment is 4 relic? (1 for WL, 1 for 1CP and 2 for 3CP)...right?
Or is it that way for the whole army?
Thanks!
You can have your 1 default relic for 0cp, or
you can have two total relics (an additional one relic) for 1cp, or
you can have three total relics (an additional two relics) for 3cp.
Chewie wrote: Hey guys... got a bit of a newbie question about relics and purchasing extras relics.
Is there a relic cap per detachment? Or, could I get a relic on every HQ in my army so long as I have the CPs and it conforms to basic requirements (ie, must have powersword to swap it with murder sword)?
According to ArmyBuilder, it looks like you can only use the 1 CP for 1 relic once, and if you wanted additional relics you have to use the 3CP one for 2 more. Is that right? If so, then the theoretical max per detachment is 4 relic? (1 for WL, 1 for 1CP and 2 for 3CP)...right?
Or is it that way for the whole army?
Thanks!
You can have your 1 default relic for 0cp, or
you can have two total relics (an additional one relic) for 1cp, or
you can have three total relics (an additional two relics) for 3cp.
You can't have an additional three relics.
Ah, I see now. Thanks!
Unless you have detachments from different factions that is. If you take daemons, knights and CSM you could have 7 relics.
Hi guys (and gals)....long time chaos player here and I'm looking to defeat a tyranid player that has a bad attitude and is a poor sport, even in friendly games. Basically a donkey-cave.
He runs a gunline (because yeah that's what tyranids should be good at) with lots of guard, the big shooting bugs (forgive me don't know the names), carnifexs that shoot, and hive tryants that are centered around shooting. Throw in some Thropes for smites and a bunch of little bugs to screen his big bugs from assault.
Any suggestions on how to beat this competitive build? I have a large knight force and apoc size Chaos Marines and Daemons including Death Guard armies and Thousand sons. Pretty much have everything open to me including some forgeworld.
macluvin wrote: So if I want to run possessed, do I have to build the whole list around them? Are the resources expended on characters, WL traits, HQ’s, stratagems and points as well as possible daemon HQ support buffs worth what you get out of them? Does Daemonic summoning provide reliable enough access to Daemonic HQ’s to buff the possessed? Are they at least fun to push across the board now?
You can get a T1 charge very easily as emperor's children. Combat Elixers and warp time along with the honor the prince is 24 +D6.
That's all nice and dandy but Possessed are extremely dependant on nearby buff vectors for them to reach their potential. AFAIK you can only get the Master of Possession power on them that allows them to reroll their A at the start of the fight phase when you send them off alone like that. Unless I'm missing something obvious?
I know word bearers have a WL trait that gives +1 attack to word bearers daemons within 6”. Greater possessed also add strength, and heralds can easily be summoned (especially by word bearers) to buff possessed even more. Revered hosts adds 1 to the damage of possessed, which would allow them to turn from an meq hunter to a primarisue blender. Plus the Daemonkin specialist detachment has a stratagem that adds 1 to strength and attacks... you can turn a possessed into a tough and angry meq/primarisue blender. It’s just a matter of whether or not it is worth it.. There are tons of ways to buff possessed.
nathan2004 wrote: Hi guys (and gals)....long time chaos player here and I'm looking to defeat a tyranid player that has a bad attitude and is a poor sport, even in friendly games. Basically a donkey-cave.
He runs a gunline (because yeah that's what tyranids should be good at) with lots of guard, the big shooting bugs (forgive me don't know the names), carnifexs that shoot, and hive tryants that are centered around shooting. Throw in some Thropes for smites and a bunch of little bugs to screen his big bugs from assault.
Any suggestions on how to beat this competitive build? I have a large knight force and apoc size Chaos Marines and Daemons including Death Guard armies and Thousand sons. Pretty much have everything open to me including some forgeworld.
thanks in advance and glory to the 4.
Best,
Nathan
Nids realy suffer from - to hit modifiers, because they're generally bs4+, so an alpha legion gunline should make pretty short work of them.
Oblitorators, havocks and FW dreadnoughts are the standard lineup.
You would also do well to have some night lords warptalons as well. The vox scream stratergem, the ability to shut down overwatch and we have come for you would work well also.
Slayer may be engaging in some hyperbole to make his point about EC Noise Marines, but he's not wrong. EC has no way to protect the squad, at all, so it has to be out of sight on first turn or it's going to get crippled by any player with two neurons to rub together. But hey, there are morons everywhere, I just don't like builds that rely on their presence.
So maybe you get a Kharybdis and DS them turn 2, now you've dumped another 300 points into that package, which will kill one thing, then get alpha struck and killed (barring the moron exception obviously).
However, you play them as Alpha Legion, or even Iron Warriors and you can actually keep them alive. Played a game recently running 3 battalions (IW/RC/AL), had a 20 man Noise Marine squad with Sonic Blasters/Blastmasters, they performed very well, didn't lose a single model. Used Conceal twice to protect them. Alpha Legion also has a fall back and shoot stratagem which is pretty amazing for that squad, although it never came into play that game. Now I certainly don't expect that level of performance every time, but the fact that I was able to pull it off even once was impressive, given that 20 man Noise Marine squads don't exactly struggle to draw fire. Iron Warriors have Cannon Fodder, Dour Duty, IWIW, etc to protect them if need be (still prefer AL though). EC has...nothing.
nathan2004 wrote: I have but not this exact build. I feel like the tools are there, and that shooting is the way to go since he can't hide his big bugs from that.
But just not sure what direction to go in terms of units to use.
This is going to depend heavily on the ruleset you play... For example competitive in EU usually means ETC and in US it usually means ITC - or it could just be the standard GW ruleset... Some rulesets like NOVA even define where the terrain needs to be placed. All impact the list choice you can take, you will notice the lists that win in ETC, ITC and NOVA are all very different.
That said, if you wanted a quick shake and bake list of what would be competitive in ITC - just go to top4 - a recent top4 from TJ Lanigan post PA can be found:
Just be aware TJ Lanigan is a 40k genius and can probably play a wide variety of lists very competitively that may be challenging for others...
or if you prefer the pre-CA list that has seen a lot of play you could just do the [x3 discolord (flawless host), x30 cultists], x3 Knight with dual thermals, ahriman on a disc... This gives you a bunch of CP to play with.
Typically in ITC you don't want to mix high wound and horde armies - you will usually go one way or the other to negate the optimal use of some of their dakka.
Not sure if any of these are specifically good against tyranids but if they are top4ing competitive tournaments you should be able to hold your own at a minimum.
Posted this over in the Daemons Tactia thread since it's mainly a Daemons list, but there's some CSM in there too so might as well ask people here as well:
I've been hammering away at a pure Slaanesh list with some mortal friends where the plan is to simply run straight across the board turn one and slap so many things in the enemy's face that they get overloaded. It looks like this at the moment:
Spoiler:
Batallion, Daemons of Slaanesh
Keeper of Secrets, Sinistrous Hand, Witstealer, Celerity of Slaanesh
Keeper of Secrets, Sinistrous Hand
3x10 Daemonettes, Instrument
2x3 Fiends with Blissbringer
1x2 Fiends
Batallion, Daemons of Slaanesh
Syll'esske
Contorted Epitome
3x10 Daemonettes, Instrument
Batallion, Night Lords, Soulforged Pack Daemon Prince of Slaanesh, Wings, Warptime, The Rapacious Talons
Lord Discordant, Mark of Slaanesh, Master of the Soulforges
3x10 Cultists of Slaanesh
1983 points, 15 command points after relics and specialist detachment cost.
I realize this isn't a hyper-competetive list, but I've got all the big gribblies already and I'm wanting to use them. The idea is to have a bunch of stuff with M14 and Advance and Charge to shove down the enemy's throat. Depending on how well the Lord Discordant rolls I could use Warptime on either it or the Daemon Prince, I've got two Keepers of Secrets, one of which moves 17+D6", and the Cultists can stay behind to both mind the shop and to make sure no one deep strikes in my behind (much as that would be appropriate for Slaanesh).
I've also got 15 CP to play with, which should be plenty to cause some havoc with fun stratagems. Notably, since I've gone Night Lords, I can Warptime the Daemon Prince into the enemy lines on T1 and then pop the new Stratagem to prevent them from falling back. Similarly, I've got the Contorted Epitome and the Fiends to mess around with no-fallback shenanigans.
Should I be going Night Lords for that Stratagem though, or should I go Emperor's Children for the +2" to the Daemon Prince's move from the stratagem to make my T1 wave more reliable? It'd also let me swap the Daemon Weapon claws for the no Overwatch relic and let me pop the auto-6 stratagem for even more reliable charges.
Denying overwatch I feel is pretty huge in general and at this time in the meta. Futher tying up units like flying tanks and infantry and preventing them from falling back is nuts, think only NLs have that option
AlmightyWalrus wrote: Posted this over in the Daemons Tactia thread since it's mainly a Daemons list, but there's some CSM in there too so might as well ask people here as well:
I've been hammering away at a pure Slaanesh list with some mortal friends where the plan is to simply run straight across the board turn one and slap so many things in the enemy's face that they get overloaded. It looks like this at the moment:
Spoiler:
Batallion, Daemons of Slaanesh
Keeper of Secrets, Sinistrous Hand, Witstealer, Celerity of Slaanesh
Keeper of Secrets, Sinistrous Hand
3x10 Daemonettes, Instrument
2x3 Fiends with Blissbringer
1x2 Fiends
Batallion, Daemons of Slaanesh
Syll'esske
Contorted Epitome
3x10 Daemonettes, Instrument
Batallion, Night Lords, Soulforged Pack Daemon Prince of Slaanesh, Wings, Warptime, The Rapacious Talons
Lord Discordant, Mark of Slaanesh, Master of the Soulforges
3x10 Cultists of Slaanesh
1983 points, 15 command points after relics and specialist detachment cost.
I realize this isn't a hyper-competetive list, but I've got all the big gribblies already and I'm wanting to use them. The idea is to have a bunch of stuff with M14 and Advance and Charge to shove down the enemy's throat. Depending on how well the Lord Discordant rolls I could use Warptime on either it or the Daemon Prince, I've got two Keepers of Secrets, one of which moves 17+D6", and the Cultists can stay behind to both mind the shop and to make sure no one deep strikes in my behind (much as that would be appropriate for Slaanesh).
I've also got 15 CP to play with, which should be plenty to cause some havoc with fun stratagems. Notably, since I've gone Night Lords, I can Warptime the Daemon Prince into the enemy lines on T1 and then pop the new Stratagem to prevent them from falling back. Similarly, I've got the Contorted Epitome and the Fiends to mess around with no-fallback shenanigans.
Should I be going Night Lords for that Stratagem though, or should I go Emperor's Children for the +2" to the Daemon Prince's move from the stratagem to make my T1 wave more reliable? It'd also let me swap the Daemon Weapon claws for the no Overwatch relic and let me pop the auto-6 stratagem for even more reliable charges.
Thoughts?
Iirc slaanesh has some psychic spls that interact with leadership scores. As such I think you have a sneaky bit of syngery with Cacophonic Choir and night lords.
nathan2004 wrote: Hi guys (and gals)....long time chaos player here and I'm looking to defeat a tyranid player that has a bad attitude and is a poor sport, even in friendly games. Basically a donkey-cave.
He runs a gunline (because yeah that's what tyranids should be good at) with lots of guard, the big shooting bugs (forgive me don't know the names), carnifexs that shoot, and hive tryants that are centered around shooting. Throw in some Thropes for smites and a bunch of little bugs to screen his big bugs from assault.
Any suggestions on how to beat this competitive build? I have a large knight force and apoc size Chaos Marines and Daemons including Death Guard armies and Thousand sons. Pretty much have everything open to me including some forgeworld.
thanks in advance and glory to the 4.
Best,
Nathan
Nids realy suffer from - to hit modifiers, because they're generally bs4+, so an alpha legion gunline should make pretty short work of them.
Oblitorators, havocks and FW dreadnoughts are the standard lineup.
You would also do well to have some night lords warptalons as well. The vox scream stratergem, the ability to shut down overwatch and we have come for you would work well also.
AL is indeed i think the way, further AC's might be an option to further bully his bigger beasts.
Think about a reaper chaincannon bomb, with the formation from vigilus to allow a nice extra phase of dakka. Alternativel think about using them with renascent to hide them and bring in the hurt some more.
If you can, get yur hands on butcher AC's dreads for maximum bullying .
You could also think about a termnator sniper lord, with a relic.
I'd probably pick up a detachment of RC marines and some usefull charachters for CP. (maybee a DP with wings aswell, with advance +charge that is a rather large threat radious.)
3x 5 marines, consider some heavy weaponry like AC etc.
AL i'd probably go with another battalion this time consisting out of cultists to bring the cost down further and generate more cp. which would then be 16.
A NLfa detachment with the above can also really bring in some more fun toys. alternatively you could go for a classic purge terminator / obliterator bomb for the full rerolls and the ability to fire into melee, which would combo well with the NL shenanigans.
While we're at it, can the Contorted Epitome take the Slothful Claws? It should be able to, right?
I hadn't even considered the Night Lords' Legion Tactic, that synergizes nicely with the Contorted Epitome's no-fallback aura (which works on things with Fly too).
Would it be better to run the Epitome as my warlord instead to give it 3" more movement?
p5freak wrote: If you manage to reduce LD to 1 with NL and cast cacophony choir on that unit the result could be very nasty.
You can take 3 off with Night Lords, so not easy to get down to 1.
Although if you add belakor and Phantasmagoria. You can get pretty close -6 in total. That means that you could also pull off treazon of tzeentch and forbidden gem is nearly guaranteed!
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AlmightyWalrus wrote: While we're at it, can the Contorted Epitome take the Slothful Claws? It should be able to, right?
I hadn't even considered the Night Lords' Legion Tactic, that synergizes nicely with the Contorted Epitome's no-fallback aura (which works on things with Fly too).
Would it be better to run the Epitome as my warlord instead to give it 3" more movement?
Crashing eldar flyers whith one raptor or warptalon is pretty funny too.
Not Online!!! wrote: I'd probably pick up a detachment of RC marines and some usefull charachters for CP. (maybee a DP with wings aswell, with advance +charge that is a rather large threat radious.)
3x 5 marines, consider some heavy weaponry like AC etc.
The cheap and useful RC detachment I've found is 3x5 Marines and 2 Sorcs (or Huron/Sorc). It's cheap, the Sorcs can cross-buff other legion troops with psychic powers for a little over 400 points. Dark Apostles, Chaos Lords, etc are all legion locked, and really, RC is there to provide CP and buffs, best to keep that detachment focused on being utility in my opinion.
You can take 3 off with Night Lords, so not easy to get down to 1.
Although if you add belakor and Phantasmagoria. You can get pretty close -6 in total. That means that you could also pull off treazon of tzeentch and forbidden gem is nearly guaranteed!
You can stack up to -18 LD with chaos/daemons, i think. It was at least -10.
Alrighty so I've been theory crafting after some play testing. Here is a list I've done several iterations to, and obviously this is the latest. Let's begin shall we?
As you can see, this is very much a list all over the place. Disco Lords, Jump Lord, and Claw w/ loaded up Chosen + Arkos are deployed carefully in case of going second, with the Dark Apostle deployed next to it solely to cast Benediction to throw it up quickly at the enemy and get everyone up close and personal. Eventually Warp Talons act as a shield for Disco Lords (not often) or to hit those dumb Eldar Hemlocks (other various Flyers as well but Hemlocks earned my ire the most) and Terminator Lord will deploy as an attempt to get Slay The Warlord (which can be mathematically done against a variety of dudes after some slight weakening). Then there's the nice part that someone ain't gonna get Slay The Warlord. 7 Characters isn't some easy task or anything, with the usual expected outcome that the Dark Apostle is the last one standing as he's Alpharius after all this time.
My primary issue is getting CP to pull everything off. I get 11 to start with (thank ya, Arkos), spend 1 each on We Are Alpharius, one not-free Relic (which I want to get one more so to spend on Talisman for one of the Disco Lords), and then the Specialist Detachment + Field Commander. That's 7 left right there, which ain't much to use. What I WOULD like to do is somehow organize into two Battalions, as that would be starting 14. The tricky part is trying to make 120 points for those extra Cultists. One idea could be to lose the Dark Apostle and 3 Warp Talons, but Benediction stops T1 shenanigans from going off on the opponent's end. Another idea is to lose the Assault Claw entirely, and use Rhinos to carry the Chosen on T1. However, the Rhinos themselves would not contribute much outside absorbing shots that might hit the Disco Lords.
macluvin wrote: So if I want to run possessed, do I have to build the whole list around them? Are the resources expended on characters, WL traits, HQ’s, stratagems and points as well as possible daemon HQ support buffs worth what you get out of them? Does Daemonic summoning provide reliable enough access to Daemonic HQ’s to buff the possessed? Are they at least fun to push across the board now?
You can get a T1 charge very easily as emperor's children. Combat Elixers and warp time along with the honor the prince is 24 +D6.
That's all nice and dandy but Possessed are extremely dependant on nearby buff vectors for them to reach their potential. AFAIK you can only get the Master of Possession power on them that allows them to reroll their A at the start of the fight phase when you send them off alone like that. Unless I'm missing something obvious?
You should buy the faith and fury book, and look up those stratagems mentioned.
I have the book and I know the stratagems. Just seems much more effective to me to properly invest into Possessed if you're going to run them (Daemonkin Ritualists detachment, 2 squads of Possessed, Greater Possessed, Master of Possession and 2 Rhinos. I'm sure you know what to do from there.), there's better units that can fulfill the suicide missile role.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Alrighty so I've been theory crafting after some play testing. Here is a list I've done several iterations to, and obviously this is the latest. Let's begin shall we?
As you can see, this is very much a list all over the place. Disco Lords, Jump Lord, and Claw w/ loaded up Chosen + Arkos are deployed carefully in case of going second, with the Dark Apostle deployed next to it solely to cast Benediction to throw it up quickly at the enemy and get everyone up close and personal. Eventually Warp Talons act as a shield for Disco Lords (not often) or to hit those dumb Eldar Hemlocks (other various Flyers as well but Hemlocks earned my ire the most) and Terminator Lord will deploy as an attempt to get Slay The Warlord (which can be mathematically done against a variety of dudes after some slight weakening). Then there's the nice part that someone ain't gonna get Slay The Warlord. 7 Characters isn't some easy task or anything, with the usual expected outcome that the Dark Apostle is the last one standing as he's Alpharius after all this time.
My primary issue is getting CP to pull everything off. I get 11 to start with (thank ya, Arkos), spend 1 each on We Are Alpharius, one not-free Relic (which I want to get one more so to spend on Talisman for one of the Disco Lords), and then the Specialist Detachment + Field Commander. That's 7 left right there, which ain't much to use. What I WOULD like to do is somehow organize into two Battalions, as that would be starting 14. The tricky part is trying to make 120 points for those extra Cultists. One idea could be to lose the Dark Apostle and 3 Warp Talons, but Benediction stops T1 shenanigans from going off on the opponent's end. Another idea is to lose the Assault Claw entirely, and use Rhinos to carry the Chosen on T1. However, the Rhinos themselves would not contribute much outside absorbing shots that might hit the Disco Lords.
I'm open to ideas, but not terrible ones.
I would suggest a couple things:
Turn your chosen detachment in to a batallion, drop the chosen and replace them with CSM--they can take a similar load out and you'll get 4 more cp, and some extra points.
Drop Arkos. He is cool but all he does is cost 120 and give you 1 cp. He doesn't buff any of your units.
I'm not a fan of the character sniping terminator, but it could be good. So many conditions to be met though. Maybe a biker lord would work better? More weaponry and more movement rather than just hoping you can deepstrike within 12".
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Alrighty so I've been theory crafting after some play testing. Here is a list I've done several iterations to, and obviously this is the latest. Let's begin shall we?
As you can see, this is very much a list all over the place. Disco Lords, Jump Lord, and Claw w/ loaded up Chosen + Arkos are deployed carefully in case of going second, with the Dark Apostle deployed next to it solely to cast Benediction to throw it up quickly at the enemy and get everyone up close and personal. Eventually Warp Talons act as a shield for Disco Lords (not often) or to hit those dumb Eldar Hemlocks (other various Flyers as well but Hemlocks earned my ire the most) and Terminator Lord will deploy as an attempt to get Slay The Warlord (which can be mathematically done against a variety of dudes after some slight weakening). Then there's the nice part that someone ain't gonna get Slay The Warlord. 7 Characters isn't some easy task or anything, with the usual expected outcome that the Dark Apostle is the last one standing as he's Alpharius after all this time.
My primary issue is getting CP to pull everything off. I get 11 to start with (thank ya, Arkos), spend 1 each on We Are Alpharius, one not-free Relic (which I want to get one more so to spend on Talisman for one of the Disco Lords), and then the Specialist Detachment + Field Commander. That's 7 left right there, which ain't much to use. What I WOULD like to do is somehow organize into two Battalions, as that would be starting 14. The tricky part is trying to make 120 points for those extra Cultists. One idea could be to lose the Dark Apostle and 3 Warp Talons, but Benediction stops T1 shenanigans from going off on the opponent's end. Another idea is to lose the Assault Claw entirely, and use Rhinos to carry the Chosen on T1. However, the Rhinos themselves would not contribute much outside absorbing shots that might hit the Disco Lords.
I'm open to ideas, but not terrible ones.
I would suggest a couple things:
Turn your chosen detachment in to a batallion, drop the chosen and replace them with CSM--they can take a similar load out and you'll get 4 more cp, and some extra points.
Drop Arkos. He is cool but all he does is cost 120 and give you 1 cp. He doesn't buff any of your units.
I'm not a fan of the character sniping terminator, but it could be good. So many conditions to be met though. Maybe a biker lord would work better? More weaponry and more movement rather than just hoping you can deepstrike within 12".
Looks fun though, let us know how it performs!
Regular Chaos Marines don't get a similar loadout though. Chosen will literally have double the Bolter shots AND attacks for 3 more points. Arkos I should mention acts as a buffer for Warp Talons and Disco Lords as well but you make an excellent point (as how important is that extra inch for 120 points?) and that frees up points by himself to make room for Cultists. I'll make an adjustment based on that when I get home.
Also the Terminator Sniper doesn't need to Deep Strike within 12". You forget Terminators always get Rapid Fire off with Bolt Weapons.
In the CSM box, I know that the icon that looks like an eye is the Icon of Vengeance, but what is the one that looks like the Chaos star? I'm looking for the Icon of Khorne.
Also, are there any special benefits that ranged weapon World Eaters get? I was thinking of creating an army that was mostly a gun line instead of melee, and use Chosen and bloodletters for melee.
ArcaneHorror wrote: In the CSM box, I know that the icon that looks like an eye is the Icon of Vengeance, but what is the one that looks like the Chaos star? I'm looking for the Icon of Khorne.
Also, are there any special benefits that ranged weapon World Eaters get? I was thinking of creating an army that was mostly a gun line instead of melee, and use Chosen and bloodletters for melee.
Sorry but it's stupid to use Chosen for melee when you have Berserker Marines that exist. Now if you want to do range stuff, a cheap Daemon HQ with the Crimson Crown or whatever helps your Daemon units get extra shots off on 6s to hit. Honestly that's really only Obliterators, Forgefiends, and their own Skullcannons.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Alrighty so I've been theory crafting after some play testing. Here is a list I've done several iterations to, and obviously this is the latest. Let's begin shall we?
As you can see, this is very much a list all over the place. Disco Lords, Jump Lord, and Claw w/ loaded up Chosen + Arkos are deployed carefully in case of going second, with the Dark Apostle deployed next to it solely to cast Benediction to throw it up quickly at the enemy and get everyone up close and personal. Eventually Warp Talons act as a shield for Disco Lords (not often) or to hit those dumb Eldar Hemlocks (other various Flyers as well but Hemlocks earned my ire the most) and Terminator Lord will deploy as an attempt to get Slay The Warlord (which can be mathematically done against a variety of dudes after some slight weakening). Then there's the nice part that someone ain't gonna get Slay The Warlord. 7 Characters isn't some easy task or anything, with the usual expected outcome that the Dark Apostle is the last one standing as he's Alpharius after all this time.
My primary issue is getting CP to pull everything off. I get 11 to start with (thank ya, Arkos), spend 1 each on We Are Alpharius, one not-free Relic (which I want to get one more so to spend on Talisman for one of the Disco Lords), and then the Specialist Detachment + Field Commander. That's 7 left right there, which ain't much to use. What I WOULD like to do is somehow organize into two Battalions, as that would be starting 14. The tricky part is trying to make 120 points for those extra Cultists. One idea could be to lose the Dark Apostle and 3 Warp Talons, but Benediction stops T1 shenanigans from going off on the opponent's end. Another idea is to lose the Assault Claw entirely, and use Rhinos to carry the Chosen on T1. However, the Rhinos themselves would not contribute much outside absorbing shots that might hit the Disco Lords.
I'm open to ideas, but not terrible ones.
Why is your lord armed with the chainsword relic? You'd be much better served freeing up the points for even just something like a powerfist and using that relic elsewhere for something like hydras wail. Gets plus 2" to charge and is supporting warptalons, really feels like he needs a thunder hammer or something to handle whatever warp talons can't kill
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Alrighty so I've been theory crafting after some play testing. Here is a list I've done several iterations to, and obviously this is the latest. Let's begin shall we?
As you can see, this is very much a list all over the place. Disco Lords, Jump Lord, and Claw w/ loaded up Chosen + Arkos are deployed carefully in case of going second, with the Dark Apostle deployed next to it solely to cast Benediction to throw it up quickly at the enemy and get everyone up close and personal. Eventually Warp Talons act as a shield for Disco Lords (not often) or to hit those dumb Eldar Hemlocks (other various Flyers as well but Hemlocks earned my ire the most) and Terminator Lord will deploy as an attempt to get Slay The Warlord (which can be mathematically done against a variety of dudes after some slight weakening). Then there's the nice part that someone ain't gonna get Slay The Warlord. 7 Characters isn't some easy task or anything, with the usual expected outcome that the Dark Apostle is the last one standing as he's Alpharius after all this time.
My primary issue is getting CP to pull everything off. I get 11 to start with (thank ya, Arkos), spend 1 each on We Are Alpharius, one not-free Relic (which I want to get one more so to spend on Talisman for one of the Disco Lords), and then the Specialist Detachment + Field Commander. That's 7 left right there, which ain't much to use. What I WOULD like to do is somehow organize into two Battalions, as that would be starting 14. The tricky part is trying to make 120 points for those extra Cultists. One idea could be to lose the Dark Apostle and 3 Warp Talons, but Benediction stops T1 shenanigans from going off on the opponent's end. Another idea is to lose the Assault Claw entirely, and use Rhinos to carry the Chosen on T1. However, the Rhinos themselves would not contribute much outside absorbing shots that might hit the Disco Lords.
I'm open to ideas, but not terrible ones.
Why is your lord armed with the chainsword relic? You'd be much better served freeing up the points for even just something like a powerfist and using that relic elsewhere for something like hydras wail. Gets plus 2" to charge and is supporting warptalons, really feels like he needs a thunder hammer or something to handle whatever warp talons can't kill
Not gonna lie, I forgot Thunderhammers were available now. Excellent advice.
I've been using that exact setup for him a ton. Give him the specialist wlt, thunder hammer, and maybe even the khornate icon to reroll charges, and he's an Excellent toolkit unit for dealing with problems. You'll get some good use out of him. Only problem is he's stuck with the 4+ invuln, but you could give him the drakescale plate of you'd rather he be more durable
Iron warriors Chaos lord with thunder hammer and insidium relic is a pretty tasty option. He's got 5 str 10 attacks, t5 and 6 wounds. With the 4++ he's about as tough as a daemon prince and does about as much damage as one with an axe, but can deepstrike, double fight with mark of khorne and still be effected by all the daemon buffs.
The most interesting remark is about getting away from Oblits and their inherent Cultist tax. In the end they required too much CP and the Cultists accomplished too little. So after test drives it’s developing to something like a Nurgle Bat + AL Possessed Command + TS or WB Command. Maybe some reinforcement points as well.
Used 10 Night Lords Warptalons and 6 Alpha Legion Oblits in a local tournament yesterday. Went 3-0 but came 3rd on points. Played Raven Guard, Iron Hands and Chaos Knights. Learnt 2 things:
1) Night Lords Warptalons are able to get to almost anything they want. In one game I had them charge an iron hamds castle of 3 whirlwinds, 3 thunderfire cannons and 2 rapiers. I used both charge stratergems and tip of the claw to charge 4+ 3d6, which got them 19 inches of movement with pile ins. Killed a bunch of guners and tied the rest down for the rest of the game.
2) Alpha Legion Oblits and Conceal are made for each other it kept them alive for a long time one game I kept 5 alive till turn 6. And the more turns you get out of them the less the randomness matters.
small_gods wrote: Used 10 Night Lords Warptalons and 6 Alpha Legion Oblits in a local tournament yesterday. Went 3-0 but came 3rd on points. Played Raven Guard, Iron Hands and Chaos Knights. Learnt 2 things:
1) Night Lords Warptalons are able to get to almost anything they want. In one game I had them charge an iron hamds castle of 3 whirlwinds, 3 thunderfire cannons and 2 rapiers. I used both charge stratergems and tip of the claw to charge 4+ 3d6, which got them 19 inches of movement with pile ins. Killed a bunch of guners and tied the rest down for the rest of the game.
2) Alpha Legion Oblits and Conceal are made for each other it kept them alive for a long time one game I kept 5 alive till turn 6. And the more turns you get out of them the less the randomness matters.
What did you use as your conceal screen/objective holder? Also what are your screen clearing options to ensure your warptalons can hit their optimal target?
I expect night lord warptalons to be a staple toolbox unit in future chaos lists, they do very well against IF artillery nonsense and absolutely ruins Tau.
small_gods wrote: Used 10 Night Lords Warptalons and 6 Alpha Legion Oblits in a local tournament yesterday. Went 3-0 but came 3rd on points. Played Raven Guard, Iron Hands and Chaos Knights. Learnt 2 things:
1) Night Lords Warptalons are able to get to almost anything they want. In one game I had them charge an iron hamds castle of 3 whirlwinds, 3 thunderfire cannons and 2 rapiers. I used both charge stratergems and tip of the claw to charge 4+ 3d6, which got them 19 inches of movement with pile ins. Killed a bunch of guners and tied the rest down for the rest of the game.
2) Alpha Legion Oblits and Conceal are made for each other it kept them alive for a long time one game I kept 5 alive till turn 6. And the more turns you get out of them the less the randomness matters.
What did you use as your conceal screen/objective holder? Also what are your screen clearing options to ensure your warptalons can hit their optimal target?
I expect night lord warptalons to be a staple toolbox unit in future chaos lists, they do very well against IF artillery nonsense and absolutely ruins Tau.
I had a unit of RCC havocks and 6 bikers to clear screen, most people ignore the bikes if I don't have the terrain to hide the havocks. Used warptime to help get them in range.
Had 90 cultists and the bikes to soak up damage for conceal. Had played with the idea of having a -4 to hit lord discordant but it was too many resources and moving parts.
Ive always been a fan of Chaos terminators. Now with the points increase to Obliterators dont chaos terminators full a similar role when all equiped with plas? They are about 60pts more but you get the benefit of not having to roll for damage or Str.
grouchoben wrote: Wasn't auspex scan a problem at all for your juicy talon blob, small_gods?
The Iron hands player only had 6CP he had 6 fliers and no troops so didn't spend the CP. I got Auspex Scanned vs Raven guard with some intercessors but they only killed 2, I could have used in midnight clad if it was something more scary than 5 intercessors. Would have to be careful vs agressors, maybe wait till t3 and hope oblits clear some room.
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Dr.Duck wrote: Ive always been a fan of Chaos terminators. Now with the points increase to Obliterators dont chaos terminators full a similar role when all equiped with plas? They are about 60pts more but you get the benefit of not having to roll for damage or Str.
Oblits have gone down again but plas Terminators can still be handy. If you play night lords you can use prey on the weak to let them overchatge freely.
small_gods wrote: Used 10 Night Lords Warptalons and 6 Alpha Legion Oblits in a local tournament yesterday. Went 3-0 but came 3rd on points. Played Raven Guard, Iron Hands and Chaos Knights. Learnt 2 things:
1) Night Lords Warptalons are able to get to almost anything they want. In one game I had them charge an iron hamds castle of 3 whirlwinds, 3 thunderfire cannons and 2 rapiers. I used both charge stratergems and tip of the claw to charge 4+ 3d6, which got them 19 inches of movement with pile ins. Killed a bunch of guners and tied the rest down for the rest of the game.
2) Alpha Legion Oblits and Conceal are made for each other it kept them alive for a long time one game I kept 5 alive till turn 6. And the more turns you get out of them the less the randomness matters.
What did you use as your conceal screen/objective holder? Also what are your screen clearing options to ensure your warptalons can hit their optimal target?
I expect night lord warptalons to be a staple toolbox unit in future chaos lists, they do very well against IF artillery nonsense and absolutely ruins Tau.
I had a unit of RCC havocks and 6 bikers to clear screen, most people ignore the bikes if I don't have the terrain to hide the havocks. Used warptime to help get them in range.
Had 90 cultists and the bikes to soak up damage for conceal. Had played with the idea of having a -4 to hit lord discordant but it was too many resources and moving parts.
Chaos Lord with Jump Pack [6 PL, 103pts]: Claws of the Black Hunt, 2x Lightning Claw, Mark of Slaanesh, The Tip of the Claw
Sorcerer [6 PL, 88pts]: Bolt pistol, Force stave, Mark of Tzeentch
+ Troops +
Chaos Cultists [3 PL, 40pts]: Mark of Khorne
. 9x Chaos Cultist w/ autopistol and brutal assault weapon
. Cultist Champion: Brutal assault weapon and Autopistol
Chaos Cultists [3 PL, 40pts]: Mark of Khorne
. 9x Chaos Cultist w/ autopistol and brutal assault weapon
. Cultist Champion: Brutal assault weapon and Autopistol
Chaos Cultists [3 PL, 40pts]: Mark of Khorne
. 9x Chaos Cultist w/ autopistol and brutal assault weapon
. Cultist Champion: Brutal assault weapon and Autopistol
+ Fast Attack +
Warp Talons [12 PL, 190pts]: Mark of Khorne
. 9x Warp Talon: 9x Lightning Claw (pair)
. Warp Talon Champion: Lightning Claw (pair)
++ Total: [127 PL, 14CP, 1,997pts] ++
How do you use conceal with 2 units of Oblits? Deep strike one in on turn 2 ? Because you can only use conceal on one, and then they can just shoot the other unit of Oblits instead right?
small_gods wrote: Used 10 Night Lords Warptalons and 6 Alpha Legion Oblits in a local tournament yesterday. Went 3-0 but came 3rd on points. Played Raven Guard, Iron Hands and Chaos Knights. Learnt 2 things:
1) Night Lords Warptalons are able to get to almost anything they want. In one game I had them charge an iron hamds castle of 3 whirlwinds, 3 thunderfire cannons and 2 rapiers. I used both charge stratergems and tip of the claw to charge 4+ 3d6, which got them 19 inches of movement with pile ins. Killed a bunch of guners and tied the rest down for the rest of the game.
2) Alpha Legion Oblits and Conceal are made for each other it kept them alive for a long time one game I kept 5 alive till turn 6. And the more turns you get out of them the less the randomness matters.
What did you use as your conceal screen/objective holder? Also what are your screen clearing options to ensure your warptalons can hit their optimal target?
I expect night lord warptalons to be a staple toolbox unit in future chaos lists, they do very well against IF artillery nonsense and absolutely ruins Tau.
I had a unit of RCC havocks and 6 bikers to clear screen, most people ignore the bikes if I don't have the terrain to hide the havocks. Used warptime to help get them in range.
Had 90 cultists and the bikes to soak up damage for conceal. Had played with the idea of having a -4 to hit lord discordant but it was too many resources and moving parts.
Chaos Lord with Jump Pack [6 PL, 103pts]: Claws of the Black Hunt, 2x Lightning Claw, Mark of Slaanesh, The Tip of the Claw
Sorcerer [6 PL, 88pts]: Bolt pistol, Force stave, Mark of Tzeentch
+ Troops +
Chaos Cultists [3 PL, 40pts]: Mark of Khorne
. 9x Chaos Cultist w/ autopistol and brutal assault weapon
. Cultist Champion: Brutal assault weapon and Autopistol
Chaos Cultists [3 PL, 40pts]: Mark of Khorne
. 9x Chaos Cultist w/ autopistol and brutal assault weapon
. Cultist Champion: Brutal assault weapon and Autopistol
Chaos Cultists [3 PL, 40pts]: Mark of Khorne
. 9x Chaos Cultist w/ autopistol and brutal assault weapon
. Cultist Champion: Brutal assault weapon and Autopistol
+ Fast Attack +
Warp Talons [12 PL, 190pts]: Mark of Khorne
. 9x Warp Talon: 9x Lightning Claw (pair)
. Warp Talon Champion: Lightning Claw (pair)
++ Total: [127 PL, 14CP, 1,997pts] ++
How do you use conceal with 2 units of Oblits? Deep strike one in on turn 2 ? Because you can only use conceal on one, and then they can just shoot the other unit of Oblits instead right?
Yes that's right, but Oblits work best when you stack the buffs on a full unit. So one gets shot at but it leaves you with a second full unit for prescience/warpste plea, VotLW and EC. And you just rinse and repeat turn 3 and 4. If you play ITC it's also sometimes possible to block off most of the shooting from the non convealed unit by dropping them one side of a ruin where they kill the big threats that can see them and only have to take a bit of punishment whilst the concealed unit is safe because of the strat.
I've tried splitting up the deepstriking before but tbh I'd rather have the shock and awe of everything hitting at once.
Surprised they ruled Red Butcher characters are a go without the right keyword. Has anyone had any luck using them or do they suffer the same fate as most immobile melee threats?
Eldarain wrote: Surprised they ruled Red Butcher characters are a go without the right keyword. Has anyone had any luck using them or do they suffer the same fate as most immobile melee threats?
A red butcher termie lord with gorefather can pretty easily deepstrike in and take out anything it fights. They've got a 76% chance of taking out an imperial knight in one fight (probably raises to near guaranteed with a third round of fighting via the khorne mark stratagem).
Eldarain wrote: Surprised they ruled Red Butcher characters are a go without the right keyword. Has anyone had any luck using them or do they suffer the same fate as most immobile melee threats?
A red butcher termie lord with gorefather can pretty easily deepstrike in and take out anything it fights. They've got a 76% chance of taking out an imperial knight in one fight (probably raises to near guaranteed with a third round of fighting via the khorne mark stratagem).
Screens aside are there any options to make that charge likely? Only seeing the new Warlord Trait for +1
Working on a list to build towards as I get back into 40k, Ive taken alot of what ive read in this thread and others and combined what Ive really liked. List currently sits at 1783 minus 2 ALHQs.
Iron Warriors Battalion
Lord Discordant
Lord Discordant
Master of Possession: Stoic Advance, Cursed Earth, Infernal Power
10 Cultists
10 Cultists
10 Cultists
VenomCrawler
VenomCrawler
VenomCrawler
Night Lords Patrol
Daemon Prince Wings Talons WarpTime/Diabolic Strength (maybe both?)
10 Warp Talons
10 Cultists
I think any of the remaining points go towards buffing the Terminators, just unsure if to go with a Sorc with Prescience or PrayBot with Warpsight. Guess I could also get -1 to hit with PrayBot but Sorc also gives access to DHex etc.
Iron Warriors is just DiscoLords and SpiderStar. If I can keep the MoP alive Crawlers hit on 3+ and have a 4++, I just realized that Stoic advance is useless here so I guess ill drop it .
Warp Talons seem cool now and ive been hearing good things from the peeps on this forum. DP is just here cause I wanted another blender lord, Very similar to the Word Bearers DP, NLDP with intoxicating Elixir and Diabolic Strength has 10 S9 -2 D2 attacks.
Any tips for the remaining HQs would be welcome. Or any cuts or adds. Thanks in advance
If you run 10 combiplas termis you need a JP or termi sorcerer with prescience. A JP lord/termi lord is useful for re-rolling 1s. With headhunter/vipers bite the lord can act as sniper.
I find that 10 combi plasma termis really work well with NL. For one you in midnight clad them. And the have +1 to hit modifiers coming out the wazoo. Prescience, from the night, prey on the weak and icon of excess. They DTTFE on a 2+ and can fire both profiles of the combi on a +2 with safe plasma.
Here is a list i am working on that has gone 4 wins and 1 loss
Night lords airwing
3x baledrake
Night lords battalion
1x claws of the black hunt khorne jump lord
1x nurgle powerfist and combi melta jump lord
3x cultists
1x 10 khorne warptalons
1x 10 combiplas termies with chainaxes, slaanesh with icon
Alpha legion battalion
1x daemon prince wings, nurgle
1x jump sorcerer, slaanesh
Dr.Duck wrote: Working on a list to build towards as I get back into 40k, Ive taken alot of what ive read in this thread and others and combined what Ive really liked. List currently sits at 1783 minus 2 ALHQs.
Probably the best way to reorg your list would be IW Bat (Discos, MoP, Cultists, Crawlers), NL Patrol (DP, Cult, Talons + Termies), AL Bat (2x Sorcerers, 3x CSM). Throw a few Autocannons onto the CSM, an Icon onto the Termies, done.
IW Oblits might be a stronger choice though, since they benefit from the MoP’s abilities. 2x IW Bat (2x Discos, Prince, MoP, 3x Cult, 3x CSM, 3x Crawlers, 3x Oblits) and a NL Outrider (Smash Lord, 10x WT, 2x Spawn) would give you 14CP total and leave enough RP to summon an Epitome. And as nice as AL stratagems are, in your list, the Epitome is probably more useful alongside the Daemon Engines.
clockworkchris9 wrote: I find that 10 combi plasma termis really work well with NL. For one you in midnight clad them. And the have +1 to hit modifiers coming out the wazoo. Prescience, from the night, prey on the weak and icon of excess. They DTTFE on a 2+ and can fire both profiles of the combi on a +2 with safe plasma.
Here is a list i am working on that has gone 4 wins and 1 loss
Night lords airwing
3x baledrake
Night lords battalion
1x claws of the black hunt khorne jump lord
1x nurgle powerfist and combi melta jump lord
3x cultists
1x 10 khorne warptalons
1x 10 combiplas termies with chainaxes, slaanesh with icon
Alpha legion battalion
1x daemon prince wings, nurgle
1x jump sorcerer, slaanesh
clockworkchris9 wrote: I find that 10 combi plasma termis really work well with NL. For one you in midnight clad them. And the have +1 to hit modifiers coming out the wazoo. Prescience, from the night, prey on the weak and icon of excess. They DTTFE on a 2+ and can fire both profiles of the combi on a +2 with safe plasma.
Here is a list i am working on that has gone 4 wins and 1 loss
Night lords airwing
3x baledrake
Night lords battalion
1x claws of the black hunt khorne jump lord
1x nurgle powerfist and combi melta jump lord
3x cultists
1x 10 khorne warptalons
1x 10 combiplas termies with chainaxes, slaanesh with icon
Alpha legion battalion
1x daemon prince wings, nurgle
1x jump sorcerer, slaanesh
3x cultists
1x leviathan dread 2x butcher array
I like this as a fluffy and good list.
What armies did you fight? What format?
All games were ITC format.
The first game was my loss and had my ass handed to me but wasn't tabled. Opponent had the following:
Game 1: IMPERIAL FISTS
1 captain
1 chapter master
3 rapiers with quad mortars
3 redemptor dreads
1x max intercessors with stalker bolt rifles
5x max squads of autobolt rifles intercessors and a powerfist
I forgot to pop vox scream on the chapter master and got auspex scanned my warptalon bomb. Leviathan was deleting a squad a turn practically, but imperial fist were hurtin my vehicules bad. Overall my fault on thw most part it was my forst game piloting the list and got overexcited.
Game 2: Imperial knights
1 knight crusader
1 knight gallant
Loyal 32
And like 6 to 8 armigers with the melta lance
Hid the leviathan out of LOS and he got forst turn, however i seized the initiative, i had popped AL warlord trait for one cp on my daemon prince so I redeployed 2 cultist squad and the leviathanto have line of site, he put de advance boost warlord trait on an armiger so i nuked it turn one with thw leviathan, while the triple baledrakes flamed and tied up 4 armigers leaving ths others incapable of moving because of terrain. Heldrakes are not aircraft so I move blocked him from falling back through my base. Turn 2 leviathan dropped to half life the crusader while the termies insta killed the gallant at range (precience, prey on the weak, endless cacophony and vets of the long war. Then charged the termies into the crusader and vets of the long war again with prey on the weak so dttfe was going off on a 3+. Both knights died during turn two. Warptalon and smashlord took care of armigers and game was over. Shout out to sabotaged armory for exploding an armiger and causing a ton of damage around him.
Game 3: necrons
Max squad of heavy destroyers
Varguard obyron + imotek+ cryptek and lord
3x scarabs
Max squad of lychguard
3 doomsday arks
3x min immortals
1xdeathmarks
Did the same redeploy trick with the levi and culstist but got first turn. Leviathan wrecked 1 doomsday arc by himself, tripdrake finished another one. Leviathan all game was rocking a -2 to hit. Turn 2 he wasted 2 drakes, terminators and sole surviving drake demolished the heavy destroyer at range, and in melee the warptalons fought twice and kille 1 immortal squad the deathmarks and a necron lord. Turn 3 he killed the warptalon with the lych guard and terminaotrs and lychguards mutually offed each other. Game finished when the leviathan killed the remaining doomsday arc
Game 4: iyanden eldar
Wraithknight with gun and board
2 wave serpents
Max 20 man squad of troops with platforms
2x pathfinders
Dark reapers
Warlock+farseer+autarch
Wraithblades
Wraithguard with flamers
I went second and lost 1 heldrake turn 1, he put into deepstrike the 20 man squad. My turn i nuked the dark reapers and a squad of pathfinders that were gonna nerf my deepstrikes and droped a wave serpent to half health. Turn 2 second heldrake dies, i destroy one of the wave serpents and claw lord kills the wraithguard by himself. Terminators nuke the wraithknight wirh thw wombo combo, warp talon missed the charge. Turn three wraithblade destroy the warp talons, but twrmies manage to kill second wave serpent and almost all wraith blades. Leviathan at that point was tied in melee with the 20 man troop squad because i misused my cp, could have 12" denied deepstrike, shot at them or fallback and shoot with the levi.
What can be done to protect an IW KLOS when you dont get first turn ? There is dour duty to reduce AP by 1, and the 6+ FNP from another strat. Then the DA with benediction of darkness for -1 to hit. Prepared positions for 2CP. Anything else ?
Very nice summary, too bad about the Vox Scan error but SM will still be a difficult matchup.
I wonder if the Flayer sword wouldn’t be a bad choice in these kinds of mass Intercessor matchups? Kill 4 models with the Lord and they’ll be testing at -9, and of course that gets worse with every model lost in the preceding phases.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
p5freak wrote: What can be done to protect an IW KLOS when you dont get first turn ? There is dour duty to reduce AP by 1, and the 6+ FNP from another strat. Then the DA with benediction of darkness for -1 to hit. Prepared positions for 2CP. Anything else ?
Has anyone bothered to try a bikerlord with the headhunter trait, vipers bite and a combi plasma? Provided its legal to switch the bikes combi bolter for the relic? On paper it sounds pretty nutty. Relatively safe to overcharge, semi long range and good mobility.
p5freak wrote: What can be done to protect an IW KLOS when you dont get first turn ? There is dour duty to reduce AP by 1, and the 6+ FNP from another strat. Then the DA with benediction of darkness for -1 to hit. Prepared positions for 2CP. Anything else ?
50% obscured and park it in cover. Means you're taking battle canons on 3+ and lascannons on 4+ after dour duty.
Yoyoyo wrote: I’m sure it would work fine but just so you know, bike HQs were moved to Legends.
Well sure, but I haven't seen anybody banning legends other than GW so far
Well here it's gone same way as index(no surprise since it's basically index renamed). Banned. ETC has commonly banned index for even before ork codex was released
VenomCrawler Vs Maulerfiend:
I would like to insert 3 daemon engines in a list, they have slightly different roles as one is cabable of shooting while the other one has a big punch in combat.
Since they have similar point cost I would like to have some feddeback to crawlers users. I own three Maulerfieds and I am quite satisfied frome their performanceso far.
I've read that exalted champions are best when in melee, but what about just camping them besides some marines with ranged weapons alongside a Chaos lord? Combining the buffs would pretty much guarantee that they would wound something. I was thinking of doing that for a unit of ranged marines, a unit of havocs, and a unit of berzerkers.
godardc wrote: What book(s) would be needed to run pure World Eaters ? Does PA give them anything valuable ? Or just the 2.0 Chaos codex ?
You definitely need PA, it gives the remaining Codex Legions the same treatment Black Legion received in Vigilus Ablaze.
So chaos 2.0 and PA, got it
The Vigilus Ablaze book will get you access to the specialist detachments as well. With World Eaters, you will be particularly interested in the Soulforged Pack (for daemonforge heavy rosters) and Host Raptorial (jump pack heavy) detachments. There are others as well that may pique you're interest, these 2 are the most common though.
godardc wrote: What book(s) would be needed to run pure World Eaters ? Does PA give them anything valuable ? Or just the 2.0 Chaos codex ?
You definitely need PA, it gives the remaining Codex Legions the same treatment Black Legion received in Vigilus Ablaze.
So chaos 2.0 and PA, got it
The Vigilus Ablaze book will get you access to the specialist detachments as well. With World Eaters, you will be particularly interested in the Soulforged Pack (for daemonforge heavy rosters) and Host Raptorial (jump pack heavy) detachments. There are others as well that may pique you're interest, these 2 are the most common though.
Well, there is no way I buy 3 books just to play one 1250/1500pts army WP, GW...
Melee support basically. Daemon Princes + Smash Lords have better mobility, MoEs are cheaper pure combat characters. But CSM is capable of getting full re-rolls in the fight phase from an Apostle and Exalted Champ, which is pretty solid if you can get a respectable unit into combat.
p5freak wrote: What can be done to protect an IW KLOS when you dont get first turn ? There is dour duty to reduce AP by 1, and the 6+ FNP from another strat. Then the DA with benediction of darkness for -1 to hit. Prepared positions for 2CP. Anything else ?
If a ruin is very flat, you might be able to sit in it and have a Heldrake provide the 50% obscurantism you need
p5freak wrote: What can be done to protect an IW KLOS when you dont get first turn ? There is dour duty to reduce AP by 1, and the 6+ FNP from another strat. Then the DA with benediction of darkness for -1 to hit. Prepared positions for 2CP. Anything else ?
If a ruin is very flat, you might be able to sit in it and have a Heldrake provide the 50% obscurantism you need
Ultra swingy, but keep it in mind
Pretty sure you don't have to keep it's base perfectly flat. Be reasonable of course, but I don't think any movement rules prevent it from being tilted a bit due to terrain.
Dr.Duck wrote: Working on a list to build towards as I get back into 40k, Ive taken alot of what ive read in this thread and others and combined what Ive really liked. List currently sits at 1783 minus 2 ALHQs.
Probably the best way to reorg your list would be IW Bat (Discos, MoP, Cultists, Crawlers), NL Patrol (DP, Cult, Talons + Termies), AL Bat (2x Sorcerers, 3x CSM). Throw a few Autocannons onto the CSM, an Icon onto the Termies, done.
IW Oblits might be a stronger choice though, since they benefit from the MoP’s abilities. 2x IW Bat (2x Discos, Prince, MoP, 3x Cult, 3x CSM, 3x Crawlers, 3x Oblits) and a NL Outrider (Smash Lord, 10x WT, 2x Spawn) would give you 14CP total and leave enough RP to summon an Epitome. And as nice as AL stratagems are, in your list, the Epitome is probably more useful alongside the Daemon Engines.
Thats an interesting thought. Im not sure if its worth missing out on Conceal though. absolutely preventing my opponents from shooting at said unit seem to me to be worth the drop in damage but I might be wrong.
Eihnlazer wrote: Just curious, has anyone tried running the heavy plasma Hellblasters in Ironhands competitively yet?
Ignoring the penalty to move and shoot and +1 damage seem pretty nice on that squad.
Uh, yes fellow Iron Hands player, hellblasters are perfect in your iron hands, please take as many as possible. You can trust me, a trustworthy loyalist marine user.
Btw don't take leviathans, repulsors, or thunderfire cannons. Those are bad
boy, this seems like a IH raid. Not enough that they beat us in literally every tournament, now they also lay claim to this very thread.
I say no more.
Spoiler:
On another sidenote, it seems like the Renegade traits have fallen even more behind now. Infact i dare say that WB are now better then the 4 mark locked ones for renegades in vigilus ablaze.
Let's say you had to field a 10-strong unit of CSM. What are your favorite loadouts, stratagem/HQ support and tactics to make them impactful?
Chainaxe and combi bolter on the champion, boltgun marines as ablative wounds, two marines have LC as anti armor, or RCC as anti infantry. They usually are slaneesh, just in case i want to use EC. A chaos lord nearby for reroll 1s to hit, and a sorcerer with prescience/warptime. And of course VOTLW.
Let's say you had to field a 10-strong unit of CSM. What are your favorite loadouts, stratagem/HQ support and tactics to make them impactful?
Chainaxe and combi bolter on the champion, boltgun marines as ablative wounds, two marines have LC as anti armor, or RCC as anti infantry. They usually are slaneesh, just in case i want to use EC. A chaos lord nearby for reroll 1s to hit, and a sorcerer with prescience/warptime. And of course VOTLW.
Edit:NVM, can't read, didn't realize csm squads can take 2 heavy weapons if they have 10
To answer his question myself, slaneesh AL, Combiplas/plas if I need them to pull weight, stock if I plan on them being more objective grabbers. Idk if I'd kit out a full 10 man squad given how morale works in this game. Opponent kills 7-8 guys and your ablative wounds actually work against you, not for you. Much better off with two squads of 5 unless you specifically run Red Corsairs and can Tide of Traitors a squad.
I hate to say it, but I see no good reason to run a 10 man squad over two 5 man squads when they cost the same, the two small squads can take more special weapons, and are more flexible and resistant to morale. Sure, strats and abilities are more effective on big squads, but what strat would you possibly spend on a marine squad that wouldn't be better spent on havocs, warp talons, terminators, possessed, chosen, or obliterators? The one exception being something like Renescant infiltration to snag objectives, and even there any unit could do that job. My squads take slaneesh because it's free and I can double tap in an emergency, but if I'm boosting a 5 man csm squad things have gone tits up and I'm grasping at straws, those strats have much higher priority elsewhere.
MrMoustaffa wrote: What strat would you possibly spend on a marine squad that wouldn't be better spent on havocs, warp talons, terminators, possessed, chosen, or obliterators?
You're probably looking for persistent effects as CSM aren't a burst damage unit.
Something like HQ upgrades, extra Relics (ie. -2" to charge), or recycling Cultists to keep up pressure. Spoiler abilities, like the 6" Heroic Intervention, the 6" Consolidate or just counter-offensive with a souped up Powerfist. Or basic but game-winning stuff -- Prepared Positions on T1, command re-rolls to make key charges with Obsec, D3 MW with a basic bolt pistol to score Warlord.
Let's say you had to field a 10-strong unit of CSM. What are your favorite loadouts, stratagem/HQ support and tactics to make them impactful?
Chainaxe and combi bolter on the champion, boltgun marines as ablative wounds, two marines have LC as anti armor, or RCC as anti infantry. They usually are slaneesh, just in case i want to use EC. A chaos lord nearby for reroll 1s to hit, and a sorcerer with prescience/warptime. And of course VOTLW.
Edit:NVM, can't read, didn't realize csm squads can take 2 heavy weapons if they have 10
To answer his question myself, slaneesh AL, Combiplas/plas if I need them to pull weight, stock if I plan on them being more objective grabbers. Idk if I'd kit out a full 10 man squad given how morale works in this game. Opponent kills 7-8 guys and your ablative wounds actually work against you, not for you. Much better off with two squads of 5 unless you specifically run Red Corsairs and can Tide of Traitors a squad.
I hate to say it, but I see no good reason to run a 10 man squad over two 5 man squads when they cost the same, the two small squads can take more special weapons, and are more flexible and resistant to morale. Sure, strats and abilities are more effective on big squads, but what strat would you possibly spend on a marine squad that wouldn't be better spent on havocs, warp talons, terminators, possessed, chosen, or obliterators? The one exception being something like Renescant infiltration to snag objectives, and even there any unit could do that job. My squads take slaneesh because it's free and I can double tap in an emergency, but if I'm boosting a 5 man csm squad things have gone tits up and I'm grasping at straws, those strats have much higher priority elsewhere.
One reason there is but only if you intend to Run corsair blobs of doom.
Let's say you had to field a 10-strong unit of CSM. What are your favorite loadouts, stratagem/HQ support and tactics to make them impactful?
Chainaxe and combi bolter on the champion, boltgun marines as ablative wounds, two marines have LC as anti armor, or RCC as anti infantry. They usually are slaneesh, just in case i want to use EC. A chaos lord nearby for reroll 1s to hit, and a sorcerer with prescience/warptime. And of course VOTLW.
Edit:NVM, can't read, didn't realize csm squads can take 2 heavy weapons if they have 10
To answer his question myself, slaneesh AL, Combiplas/plas if I need them to pull weight, stock if I plan on them being more objective grabbers. Idk if I'd kit out a full 10 man squad given how morale works in this game. Opponent kills 7-8 guys and your ablative wounds actually work against you, not for you. Much better off with two squads of 5 unless you specifically run Red Corsairs and can Tide of Traitors a squad.
I hate to say it, but I see no good reason to run a 10 man squad over two 5 man squads when they cost the same, the two small squads can take more special weapons, and are more flexible and resistant to morale. Sure, strats and abilities are more effective on big squads, but what strat would you possibly spend on a marine squad that wouldn't be better spent on havocs, warp talons, terminators, possessed, chosen, or obliterators? The one exception being something like Renescant infiltration to snag objectives, and even there any unit could do that job. My squads take slaneesh because it's free and I can double tap in an emergency, but if I'm boosting a 5 man csm squad things have gone tits up and I'm grasping at straws, those strats have much higher priority elsewhere.
Yeah, most of the time, probably better to stick to min 5 man squads. If want to go big, might as well go 20 man. And that's only if you have a specific plan in mind. But damage won't be the plan. Whether 5 man, 10 man, 20 man, no matter the special weapon options you put on it, CSM squads are just basic troop choices. Other units will hit harder, do more damage, be more durable, etc etc. Like I think I could make a case for a 20 man blob of WECSM. Use the strategem to move them 9 inches forward, and move up a dark Apostle along with them who can provide that 5++ invul aura. So, now you have a blob of 20 man CSM world waters who can do 4 attacks in one round, kill chaff and are big sized enough to tie up lots of stuff. The only question why you don't do a 20 man zerker squad is because that is too obvious a target to be focused on, so your zerkers will likely be riding in Rhinos alongside this charging big 20 man blob.
Another case for the 20 man blob would be red corsairs, because of their strategem that can bring back a whole blob. It basically forces the opponent to focus down 20 CSM or risk the whole blob coming back again. But again, this is more for stuff to tag things in combat, and prevent shooting units from shooting. No matter how you equip it, a 20 man CSM squad won't really do that much damage to something (unless its against chaff like guardsmen).
Automatically Appended Next Post: On a separate note, I wish there were ways I can work in Abaddon. I have the model painted up, and he looks so badass. But its hard to fit in black legion without making the BL detachment a main contingent.
Where is techsolden? I remember he used to field lascannon spam? How is the black legion lascannon spam going now? Or are there other lists which can benefit from having Abaddon inside them as a key anchor?
I'm also running Lascannon spam and it's still doing well, against Space Wolves and Raven Guard at least (2 of the players in my group). Albeit only the RG really list-builds/plays at a tournament level, and against him I basically need to ally in a knight to REALLY stand a chance.
Hey guys. Just have a quick question if anyone would like help out.
My friend got 3 SC boxsets of CSM and 4 box of cultists for Christmas and he Is wondering what's the best 1k list he can make with those units e.g. 3 Master of Possession, 30 CSM, 3 venom crawlers, 6 Obliteraters and 20 cultists.
He mainly wants a good 1k list because that is what we normally play and we are thinking of doing a batrep for the game as well.
So, if you guys could recommend a CSM legion he should start with as well as regarding Faith and Fury extra bits for all the legions if possible. Thanks in-advance for any help you guys give.
Eldenfirefly wrote: CSM squads are just basic troop choices. Other units will hit harder, do more damage, be more durable, etc.
Units don't function in isolation, though. Imagine we have a 600pt game.
Spoiler:
Army #1
- Jump Lord
- Sorcerer
- 3x10 Cultist
- 3x Oblits
- 14pts free for wargear
Army #2
- Dark Apostle
- Exalted Champ
- Sorcerer
- 2x8 CSM - 2x Rhino
- 60pts free for wargear
I think the second list would have a decent shot at beating the first, even as a Patrol det. Silly example of course but I'm sure you see what I'm getting at.
Alpha Legion is probably a good choice as you can fall back and shoot, redeploy and advance, hide the Oblits, good passive trait and nice 2+ save for the MoP that can save on perils, etc.
Not Online!!! wrote: One reason there is but only if you intend to Run corsair blobs of doom.
Are they not too fragile without transport?
Yesn't.
If you really intend to make them work you need more then 1 / 3 squads in that setup. ( esle the enemy just targets the bigger ones and that leaves removes that instantly.) Otoh you can technically consider it in a 5/5/ 10 setup in order to preciscly draw fire and have an alternative plan.
Personally i run atm a list running around a core of 65 CSM in my list, 6 x 10 and 1 time 5 for keeping an home obejctive.
I also include 10 CSM of khorne with icon and melee eqipment to reliably tie something up.
Also, with the right defensive buffs ( A da with -1 to hit prayer, a sorcerer with the FNP spell from slaanesh and prescience) the CSm themselves become okaish to sturdy.
Then i add in other firemagnets: Like 10 terminators, 10 Havocs with, A butcher decimator, A termi lord, etc. Stuff that needs to be dealt with or else is going to ruin someones day.
Against most TAC lists, it works by the very nature of beeing an actual skew list, because atm most tac lists aren't overly effective here against an infantry only army in essence. Also at 11 pts CSM really aren't that sad to loose. Exception though if you run into, as allready mentioned, marines due to switching to tac doctrine and runing your day.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Odrankt wrote: Hey guys. Just have a quick question if anyone would like help out.
My friend got 3 SC boxsets of CSM and 4 box of cultists for Christmas and he Is wondering what's the best 1k list he can make with those units e.g. 3 Master of Possession, 30 CSM, 3 venom crawlers, 6 Obliteraters and 20 cultists.
He mainly wants a good 1k list because that is what we normally play and we are thinking of doing a batrep for the game as well.
So, if you guys could recommend a CSM legion he should start with as well as regarding Faith and Fury extra bits for all the legions if possible. Thanks in-advance for any help you guys give.
Ok let's see, first question is, can he fix the CSM squads up to have full bolter loadouts ? if not well then it get' annoying.
Generally:
assuming you want to remain with the theme, i'd imagine you'd want a HS detachment consiting of
HQ MOP: Staff, cursed earth and another spell 88 pts.
2x 1 Venom crawler. 230pts.
1x3 Obliterators 285 pts.
603 pts:
Then you need to fuel the upper part probably:
Sorcerer, staff, warptime, and depending what else. 88
Another sorcerer with staff 88
3x 5 CSM, AC 195pts.
371 pts
That would be: 9 CP 979 pts.
The issue is though, that the CSM in the SC box are stupidly equiped. Venom crawlers at 115 are decent imo, add in some of the psy support and the right spell and you are in buisness.
Consider addining in a special detachment for soulforged, for maximum daemonenegine flinging, and use the obliterators to delete something.
Everything here is marked slaanesh aswell, in order to gain access to the 5+++ and doubleshooting.
Leftover units he'd have with this 1 venomcrawler.
9 melee marines, 3 champions with pp, 3 PGcsm.
6 Greater possessed, (consider converting them in to a 5 man squad and a greater possessed eventually for a potential swap in.)
Optimally, you'd make the battalion into RC, for 3+ add on CP.allowing for more stratagems beeing used for your units.
Alternatively convert a sorcerer in the battalion into a lord for rerolls.
the heavy support detachment, should be an legion detachment to gin access to VotLW aswell as allowing access to slaanesh, consider either A(AL, due to the possibility of conceal shenanigans, and the re deployment strat. add in I am alpharius for a second warlord trait for that.) RC, gain the warlord trait for them, allowing you a free relic to be taken furthering the ammount of shenanigans possible.
I keep reading that CSM are just basic CSM and thus can't hurt anybody. If you assume all the buffs they can get, a 20-man blob can easily kill a knight in one round of combat, two via the fight twice stratagem.
So them not being capable of damage is not really true. I will say though that still having the necessary numbers and all the pieces in place is a whole different story, not to mention the costs and the fact that you are probably better off using those pieces on other stuff.
Niiru wrote: How do sonic dreads for EC stack up these days?
Sonic Dreads are pretty neat. Twin blastmaster and missile launcher comes in at a cool 104pts. I tend to field 3 of them - not very survivable once your opponent starts targeting them, but they have the range to do damage right from the get-go. Can be a bit swingy in terms of damage output, but with re-rolls from lords, they can do work - and don't forget Fire Frenzy!
Eldenfirefly wrote: On a separate note, I wish there were ways I can work in Abaddon. I have the model painted up, and he looks so badass. But its hard to fit in black legion without making the BL detachment a main contingent.
Where is techsolden? I remember he used to field lascannon spam? How is the black legion lascannon spam going now? Or are there other lists which can benefit from having Abaddon inside them as a key anchor?
Here. Black Legion Lascannon spam still works, with some modifications.
These days, most of my games are against NuMarines, Dark Eldar, Orks and Imperial Knights. You kind of have to optimize for NuMarines and hope it works out against the rest.
I now use Scorpius Whirlwinds instead of Predators, Deredeos instead of Helbrutes, a Chainlord in place of a Daemon Prince, and fewer Cultists. This means a lot less lascannons but much better tactics. I can stick the Scorpius' behind terrain at the start of the game to mow down Intercessors before they get into range while my other guns take out tanks and whatnot. It's about as efficient as I could hope for in the new meta.
When NuMarines came out, I explored a lot of ideas around list design. The other lists I play include Daemon Primarchs and a Chaos Knights / Black Legion list. I don't believe you can currently build a TAAC list with Chaos, you optimize and end up with something that's great against either NuMarines or everything else, but not both. The BLLC spam comes the closest to the middle ground, but now it's more vulnerable to hordes / models with high wound count.
Here's my thoughts pre-Faith and Fury on Chaos List design. Not much has changed, winning lists involve some combination of high T, high mobility, long range guns, good invuls, psychic, and indirect fire. Infantry / most Daemon Engines / deep strikers / Codex tanks are all sub-optimal choices and the best units to look at are listed in the post.
Roknar wrote: So them not being capable of damage is not really true. I will say though that still having the necessary numbers and all the pieces in place is a whole different story, not to mention the costs and the fact that you are probably better off using those pieces on other stuff.
Right, the real issue is economy and how it can fit into your overall strategy. If you have mech infantry to contest the midfield, let the opposition wail on them and stay even on points while units like the Scorpius chip away at the opponent for 6 turns. Premiere shooting and top-tier assault are probably better to squish the T8 armor anyway.
In that case you're not really looking for the CSM to do any heavy lifting in terms of damage. It's more about how they can hold cost-effectively or win out in fights they'd otherwise lose. They can take 2x Plasma Pistols and a Power Fist for example, not great offensively but much better if something too big for chainswords consolidates into them. It solves none of their offensive issues but if your main goal is capping objectives and holding ground -- it makes a certain amount of sense. Same general idea as what Matthew Allee was doing with Warpflame Pistols on his Aspiring Sorcerers in a few GTs he won.
- Bolt Rifle damage tanks if they have to move.
- S4 starts to fall off against T5+.
- Cover saves, negatives to hit and damage saves help.
- A lot of their performance comes from re-rolls.
- Invul saves aren't affected by doctrine, and they can't be in all at once.
SM best-case scenario is we try to out-shoot their gunline and deliver our units right into their killzone. Their worst-case scenario is they have to split up their castle and footslog, which impedes their bonus shots and officer rerolls, before we get them in CC where they can't use their fancy guns.
Regardless of units chosen, you want to not let them leverage their strengths.
Dr.Duck wrote: How does lasspam work? Havocs or CSMs with 2 and abbadon?
' I was running up to 28 on Predators, Helbrutes and CSMs. It's now possible to get into the 30s with Havocs in a separate detachment at 2k points.
In the perfect lascannon spam game, you deploy everything on your own table edge and never move. It works because you keep all your guys in range of Abaddon's aura, which means each gun hits / wounds about 80% of the time. Your opponent is forced to make bad saves and you get a "free" round of shooting after destroying all their long range guns but before anything gets into charge range. Then you have a bunch of beatsticks waiting around to kill anything that does charge.
Dr.Duck wrote: How does lasspam work? Havocs or CSMs with 2 and abbadon?
'
I was running up to 28 on Predators, Helbrutes and CSMs. It's now possible to get into the 30s with Havocs in a separate detachment at 2k points.
In the perfect lascannon spam game, you deploy everything on your own table edge and never move. It works because you keep all your guys in range of Abaddon's aura, which means each gun hits / wounds about 80% of the time. Your opponent is forced to make bad saves and you get a "free" round of shooting after destroying all their long range guns but before anything gets into charge range. Then you have a bunch of beatsticks waiting around to kill anything that does charge.
Would just like to chime in that Norlitith crown is now just 80 points. And that expanding Aura giving all your hellbrutes and predators a 5++ is nothing to sniff at for just 80 points. On a related note to Abaddon though. How many ever tried a list where the strategy is the move Abaddon up to the midfield? The lascannon spam list basically has him staying stationary. Anyone had any success in a list where his goal is to move up to mid field so that he can bring his awesome combat abilities to bear to hold down the mid board ?
Dr.Duck wrote: How does lasspam work? Havocs or CSMs with 2 and abbadon?
'
I was running up to 28 on Predators, Helbrutes and CSMs. It's now possible to get into the 30s with Havocs in a separate detachment at 2k points.
In the perfect lascannon spam game, you deploy everything on your own table edge and never move. It works because you keep all your guys in range of Abaddon's aura, which means each gun hits / wounds about 80% of the time. Your opponent is forced to make bad saves and you get a "free" round of shooting after destroying all their long range guns but before anything gets into charge range. Then you have a bunch of beatsticks waiting around to kill anything that does charge.
Would just like to chime in that Norlitith crown is now just 80 points. And that expanding Aura giving all your hellbrutes and predators a 5++ is nothing to sniff at for just 80 points. On a related note to Abaddon though. How many ever tried a list where the strategy is the move Abaddon up to the midfield? The lascannon spam list basically has him staying stationary. Anyone had any success in a list where his goal is to move up to mid field so that he can bring his awesome combat abilities to bear to hold down the mid board ?
I would assume this would rely more on terminators, but I'm interested to hear what people chime in with.
I did not like any of my attempts at running Abaddon with terminators. Ran 1 unit of 10 and 2 units of 5 all with chainaxes and combi-plasma, laying down prescience/benediction of darkness on the 10 man unit and having it shoot twice.
Got picked apart pretty easily without getting in range to really do damage with plasma.
Rihgu wrote: I did not like any of my attempts at running Abaddon with terminators. Ran 1 unit of 10 and 2 units of 5 all with chainaxes and combi-plasma, laying down prescience/benediction of darkness on the 10 man unit and having it shoot twice.
Got picked apart pretty easily without getting in range to really do damage with plasma.
You'd pretty much have to deepstrike them all, they're way too fragile to walk them up the table. They should delete some stuff when they drop, in theory.
Dr.Duck wrote: How does lasspam work? Havocs or CSMs with 2 and abbadon?
'
I was running up to 28 on Predators, Helbrutes and CSMs. It's now possible to get into the 30s with Havocs in a separate detachment at 2k points.
In the perfect lascannon spam game, you deploy everything on your own table edge and never move. It works because you keep all your guys in range of Abaddon's aura, which means each gun hits / wounds about 80% of the time. Your opponent is forced to make bad saves and you get a "free" round of shooting after destroying all their long range guns but before anything gets into charge range. Then you have a bunch of beatsticks waiting around to kill anything that does charge.
Would just like to chime in that Norlitith crown is now just 80 points. And that expanding Aura giving all your hellbrutes and predators a 5++ is nothing to sniff at for just 80 points. On a related note to Abaddon though. How many ever tried a list where the strategy is the move Abaddon up to the midfield? The lascannon spam list basically has him staying stationary. Anyone had any success in a list where his goal is to move up to mid field so that he can bring his awesome combat abilities to bear to hold down the mid board ?
I would assume this would rely more on terminators, but I'm interested to hear what people chime in with.
Counterpoint: would you rather have 20+ lascannons shooting for 2 rounds with full rerolls to hit, or Abaddon marching up the board for close combat?
My experience has been he's better used for cleanup after your opponent is reduced to infantry. He excels at that role.
Dr.Duck wrote: How does lasspam work? Havocs or CSMs with 2 and abbadon?
'
I was running up to 28 on Predators, Helbrutes and CSMs. It's now possible to get into the 30s with Havocs in a separate detachment at 2k points.
In the perfect lascannon spam game, you deploy everything on your own table edge and never move. It works because you keep all your guys in range of Abaddon's aura, which means each gun hits / wounds about 80% of the time. Your opponent is forced to make bad saves and you get a "free" round of shooting after destroying all their long range guns but before anything gets into charge range. Then you have a bunch of beatsticks waiting around to kill anything that does charge.
Would just like to chime in that Norlitith crown is now just 80 points. And that expanding Aura giving all your hellbrutes and predators a 5++ is nothing to sniff at for just 80 points. On a related note to Abaddon though. How many ever tried a list where the strategy is the move Abaddon up to the midfield? The lascannon spam list basically has him staying stationary. Anyone had any success in a list where his goal is to move up to mid field so that he can bring his awesome combat abilities to bear to hold down the mid board ?
I've always been a massive fan of World Eaters and Night Lords, and with the boons granted them by Faith and Fury I've been wanting to try them out. I've drafted two lists, and I am having a hard time deciding which I like better:
The first:
Spoiler:
Battalion - World Eaters; Gifts of Chaos (-1CP)
HQ:
Khorne Daemon Prince with Wings, Hellforged Sword, Warp Bolter, Warlord, Z'aall the Wrathful, Violent Urgency
Exalted Champion, Chainsword, Gorefather, MoK
Troops:
10x Cultists, MoK 10x Cultists, MoK 5x Khorne Berzerkers w Chainaxe/Chainsword, Icon of Wrath
Battalion - World Eaters
HQ:
Kharn the Betrayer
Master of Executions, MoK
Troops:
5x Khorne Berzerkers w Chainaxe/Chainsword, Icon of Wrath
7x Khorne Berzerkers w Chainaxe/Chainsword, Icon of Wrath
8x Khorne Berzerkers w Chainaxe/Chainsword, Icon of Wrath
Elites:
10x Chaos Terminators, MoK, IoW, Red Butchers (-2CP)
Heavy Support:
Defiler, Defiler Scourge, Reaper Autocannon, MoK
Battalion - World Eaters
HQ:
Chaos Lord w Chainsword, Power fist, MoK Master of Executions, MoK
Troops:
5x Khorne Berzerkers w Chainaxe/Chainsword
7x Khorne Berzerkers w Chainaxe/Chainsword, Icon of Wrath
7x Khorne Berzerkers w Chainaxe/Chainsword, Icon of Wrath
Elites:
9x Chaos Terminators, MoK, IoW, Red Butchers (-2CP)
Outrider Detachment - Night Lords, Specialist Detachment, Field Commander
HQ:
Sorcerer with Jump Pack, Tip of the Claw, Prescience, Warptime, MoT
Fast Attack:
5x Warp Talons, MoK 5x Warp Talons, MoK Chaos Bikers x3, Champ w Chainaxe, MoK
Total: 2,000 points; 9CP
The plan is to deploy aggressively, with the Warp Talons and Terminators in DS and the cultists on any backfield objectives. Turn one, rush forward with the Rhinos, Defiler(s) and DP/Sorcerer. If I can get off Warptime, that and careful maneuvering can enable a Defiler a charge as low as a 7, which should cause issues for my opponent and allow my other units to move up while the Defiler in their line gets focused turn one.
I like the second, as it gets me the second Defiler for further distractions once the first goes down, but I don't get Kharn who is a serious blender and I'll have one less Terminator and Berzerker. I also have to cut the Icons on some Berzerkers which could be a pain, especially given how few CP I have to begin with.
Not Online!!! wrote: One reason there is but only if you intend to Run corsair blobs of doom.
Are they not too fragile without transport?
They're more than twice as durable than the same number of cultists against basic bolter shots, which is nice. A couple squads of 5 with an autocannon each can probably hold their own well enough to be worth their points in a red corsairs CP battery. Which is part of my current plan of a triple battalion, night lords, world eaters, and red corsairs. Gotta pay for all the CP it takes to make two characters with 75+% chances of killing knights in a single fight work, along with two lord discordants.
p5freak wrote: There is no reason to run noctilith crown, helbrutes, preds when there are hellforged contemptor dreads.
the noctilith at 80 is ok if you intend to run an R&H gunline. because it doubles your basic saves and gives your vehicles an ++ save, which is decent. it also acts as a psy denial tool, but frankly why bother with that, even in R&H when you can just use a Rouge psyker coven with the same effect?
Would just like to chime in that Norlitith crown is now just 80 points. And that expanding Aura giving all your hellbrutes and predators a 5++ is nothing to sniff at for just 80 points. On a related note to Abaddon though. How many ever tried a list where the strategy is the move Abaddon up to the midfield? The lascannon spam list basically has him staying stationary. Anyone had any success in a list where his goal is to move up to mid field so that he can bring his awesome combat abilities to bear to hold down the mid board ?
I had some success surrounding him with a max unit of bikes, can advance Abaddon and still shoot his talon at 3+ and your bikes can keep up without advancing and put out 36 bolter shots at 36" with full rerolls plus 3 plasma guns. Often would drop veterans on them to absolutely ruin screens and the plasma shots are just bonus to pump into a heavier target. Shoot twice with endless cacophony turn one before your oblits can drop in midtable near Abaddon and what's left of your bikes can whizz of to harass.
Contemptor dreads bringing up the rear can stay in his aura too. 3+with full rerolls is better than their regular 2+. Quite like a vindicator rolling up with them. Bit of a bullet sponge and can be nasty if allowed to reach the centre alongside Ab.
Dr.Duck wrote: Are havocs ideal though? they seem like a liability no longer having ablative wounds
Depends on the havoc.
AL / IW ones are the ost durable, thanks to a certain stratagem interaction with a certain HQ and trait.
But regular havocs aren't that bad aswell, especially nowadays that you literally can hide outside of LOS and have T5 which is good enough for most LoS ignoring fire to be migitated somewhat.
I think it depends on the terrain you play with as well, in itc they are great because you're guaranteed to be able to find some cover.
We always play with the itc terrain rules and a decent ammoint of terrain even if we're playing missions from chapter approved etc as gunlines are too tough to counter without any decent terrain and it's then a case of who goes first and rolls best wins.
Dr.Duck wrote: Are havocs ideal though? they seem like a liability no longer having ablative wounds
I'm personally on the fence about havocs. On one hand I can guarantee I get value out of them ( Devestation Battery) but that's a 2 cp sync
Whereas oblits are also "safe" via deepstrike.
I run both, sometimes in a list sometimes not, and generally not with devastation battery. granted i run AC and ACML but still. The squads absolutely shred light vehicles and or primaris.
Dr.Duck wrote: Are havocs ideal though? they seem like a liability no longer having ablative wounds
Put them in a Rhino (disembark first turn, then use the Rhino to drive up the field and try to pull the opponents shooty stuff into CC. And even if the Rhino gets destroyed, that's still a lot of ablative wounds AND lascannons that didn't shoot your Discolords and Chaos Knights) or as has been said, use Devastation Battery. One salvo with Endless Cacophony (and whatever other stratagems you want to use on them) is usually enough to get their points back, any turns they survive afterwards are a bonus.
All this advice about havocs is really helpful, as I'm running them in my mixed Iron Warriors/World Eaters/Khorne daemons army. I'm only sad that they are strictly limited to only five models per unit.
For this army, I was thinking of running a Lord Discordant, Venocrawler, and Warpsmith with my World Eaters. How could I make this work?
ArcaneHorror wrote: All this advice about havocs is really helpful, as I'm running them in my mixed Iron Warriors/World Eaters/Khorne daemons army. I'm only sad that they are strictly limited to only five models per unit.
For this army, I was thinking of running a Lord Discordant, Venocrawler, and Warpsmith with my World Eaters. How could I make this work?
I would advise dropping the warpsmith honestly. He won't keep up to heal your venomcrawler or disco.
Otherwise do two squads of las havocs, Daemon engines for your IW detachment.
World Eaters- take as many bezerkers in transports as possible plus a group of red butcher terminators.
So im looking through alot of the stratagems and warlord traits for a battalion consisting of atleast 2 disco lords and some more VenomCrawlers, and I cant seem to find anything that actualy benefits these units all that much. Was origionally going with Iron warriors for Dour Duty but with a MoP and cursed earth all the engines already have a 4++. Any1 have any imput on picking a legion? Else I guess its just Alpha Legion to help protect the DiscoLords a smidge.....
Dr.Duck wrote: So im looking through alot of the stratagems and warlord traits for a battalion consisting of atleast 2 disco lords and some more VenomCrawlers, and I cant seem to find anything that actualy benefits these units all that much. Was origionally going with Iron warriors for Dour Duty but with a MoP and cursed earth all the engines already have a 4++. Any1 have any imput on picking a legion? Else I guess its just Alpha Legion to help protect the DiscoLords a smidge.....
Soulforged Pack is what benefits those units. The Warlord trait for the Disco Lord makes everyone faster.
Dr.Duck wrote: So im looking through alot of the stratagems and warlord traits for a battalion consisting of atleast 2 disco lords and some more VenomCrawlers, and I cant seem to find anything that actualy benefits these units all that much. Was origionally going with Iron warriors for Dour Duty but with a MoP and cursed earth all the engines already have a 4++. Any1 have any imput on picking a legion? Else I guess its just Alpha Legion to help protect the DiscoLords a smidge.....
Majority of time you want to run a discolord with flawless host if possible the warlord trait is super strong with daemonforged as is the aura and legion trait.
Dr.Duck wrote: So im looking through alot of the stratagems and warlord traits for a battalion consisting of atleast 2 disco lords and some more VenomCrawlers, and I cant seem to find anything that actualy benefits these units all that much. Was origionally going with Iron warriors for Dour Duty but with a MoP and cursed earth all the engines already have a 4++. Any1 have any imput on picking a legion? Else I guess its just Alpha Legion to help protect the DiscoLords a smidge.....
Flawless host is the way to go, it drives disco lord's offensive power to a ludicrous degree, to a point where it basically one-shots anything Imperium that's not a super heavy
ArcaneHorror wrote: All this advice about havocs is really helpful, as I'm running them in my mixed Iron Warriors/World Eaters/Khorne daemons army. I'm only sad that they are strictly limited to only five models per unit.
For this army, I was thinking of running a Lord Discordant, Venocrawler, and Warpsmith with my World Eaters. How could I make this work?
I would advise dropping the warpsmith honestly. He won't keep up to heal your venomcrawler or disco.
Otherwise do two squads of las havocs, Daemon engines for your IW detachment.
World Eaters- take as many bezerkers in transports as possible plus a group of red butcher terminators.
Ok, thanks, I'll probably get some more havocs soon.
On another note, I was thinking of making a MoP model a Khornate Dark Apostle, with the Skullreaver icon replacing the goat head for the crozius. Could this double as both the crozius and the icon of wrath?
Dr.Duck wrote: So im looking through alot of the stratagems and warlord traits for a battalion consisting of atleast 2 disco lords and some more VenomCrawlers, and I cant seem to find anything that actualy benefits these units all that much. Was origionally going with Iron warriors for Dour Duty but with a MoP and cursed earth all the engines already have a 4++. Any1 have any imput on picking a legion? Else I guess its just Alpha Legion to help protect the DiscoLords a smidge.....
Flawless host is the way to go, it drives disco lord's offensive power to a ludicrous degree, to a point where it basically one-shots anything Imperium that's not a super heavy
What good is that if your 1 million melee attacks disco lord doesnt get into close combat ? If you make him AL he can get -4 to hit (clandestine, miasma of pestilence, benediction of darkness and AL legion trait), meaning he is pretty much impossible to kill with ranged weapons. Also, with AL the MoP can get warplord with we are alpharius, rerolling 1s when casting a psychic power, making it more likely to cast cursed earth.
Dr.Duck wrote: So im looking through alot of the stratagems and warlord traits for a battalion consisting of atleast 2 disco lords and some more VenomCrawlers, and I cant seem to find anything that actualy benefits these units all that much. Was origionally going with Iron warriors for Dour Duty but with a MoP and cursed earth all the engines already have a 4++. Any1 have any imput on picking a legion? Else I guess its just Alpha Legion to help protect the DiscoLords a smidge.....
Flawless host is the way to go, it drives disco lord's offensive power to a ludicrous degree, to a point where it basically one-shots anything Imperium that's not a super heavy
What good is that if your 1 million melee attacks disco lord doesn't get into close combat ? If you make him AL he can get -4 to hit (clandestine, miasma of pestilence, benediction of darkness and AL legion trait), meaning he is pretty much impossible to kill with ranged weapons. Also, with AL the MoP can get warplord with we are alpharius, rerolling 1s when casting a psychic power, making it more likely to cast cursed earth.
To an extent I can appreciate the contrarian opinion but can you post a sample list where this works? I'm just curious of the opportunity cost of casting miasma, clandestine etc. on a 160 pt disco lord. Somehow also keeping the disco lord consciously over 12 inches away (on your opponents turn) and still being able to charge it (reliably) into combat against good targets. I also question the ability to reliably stack all these buffs, keeping the disco lord near an apostle etc, where the apostle I think moves 6? and the discolord 14 typically. I think a lot of people are still wrapping their heads around the new traits available in the latest chaos release (alpha strats etc.) so I guess I could see this working but I'm just curious what your list looks like with this advice? Do you have some battle reports or tournament results to share?
This will likely come off as potentially rude, and I don't really mean it that way, but the alpha legion advice shared has the flavor (at face value) of a typical example of "if we stack every buff in the army perfectly the numbers are ridiculous!" - of course this is an exaggeration in this case but hopefully elucidates the point. Where most of the time this never happens in a game against a savy opponent becuase they 1) Know what you can do and will stretch you or 2) The units that are needed to pull it off don't operate the same way (see movement and the need for discolord to be in melee to be effective), or 3) the opportunity cost is poor/not sustainable etc. That said, this could be similar to the case of where everyone thought DG Termis were hot garbage and then they quickly became a meta staple after someone won BAO with a stack...
Just to share some data the flawless host perspective comes from a known ITC tournament grade track record - really its just about redundancy and target saturation. If they kill 1, 2 or even all 3 discolords before they get into melee its certainly not ideal but means hopefully the knights etc. aren't bracketed. This is a more holistic look at how the discolords function in an overall list. Its phased out now s/p SM dominating the meta but it was seen in early 2019, I just picked one that came up first. For example is the third place list:
https://www.40kstats.com/crucible8
Is there any place on the internet where all our relics are consolidated? I'm honestly a little bit stumped atm when I'm trying to find out all the options we have for a relic chain axe.
To an extent I can appreciate the contrarian opinion but can you post a sample list where this works? I'm just curious of the opportunity cost of casting miasma, clandestine etc. on a 160 pt disco lord. Somehow also keeping the disco lord consciously over 12 inches away (on your opponents turn) and still being able to charge it (reliably) into combat against good targets. I also question the ability to reliably stack all these buffs, keeping the disco lord near an apostle etc, where the apostle I think moves 6? and the discolord 14 typically. I think a lot of people are still wrapping their heads around the new traits available in the latest chaos release (alpha strats etc.) so I guess I could see this working but I'm just curious what your list looks like with this advice? Do you have some battle reports or tournament results to share?
Of course its not possible to maintain the -4 to hit all the time. I didnt say that. Benediction of darkness only works against ranged weapons, and the AL legion trait as well, and only for 12"+. Its a way to keep the lord alive T1, until he gets into melee.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Gidun wrote: Is there any place on the internet where all our relics are consolidated? I'm honestly a little bit stumped atm when I'm trying to find out all the options we have for a relic chain axe.
Dr.Duck wrote: So im looking through alot of the stratagems and warlord traits for a battalion consisting of atleast 2 disco lords and some more VenomCrawlers, and I cant seem to find anything that actualy benefits these units all that much. Was origionally going with Iron warriors for Dour Duty but with a MoP and cursed earth all the engines already have a 4++. Any1 have any imput on picking a legion? Else I guess its just Alpha Legion to help protect the DiscoLords a smidge.....
Flawless host is the way to go, it drives disco lord's offensive power to a ludicrous degree, to a point where it basically one-shots anything Imperium that's not a super heavy
What good is that if your 1 million melee attacks disco lord doesn't get into close combat ? If you make him AL he can get -4 to hit (clandestine, miasma of pestilence, benediction of darkness and AL legion trait), meaning he is pretty much impossible to kill with ranged weapons. Also, with AL the MoP can get warplord with we are alpharius, rerolling 1s when casting a psychic power, making it more likely to cast cursed earth.
To an extent I can appreciate the contrarian opinion but can you post a sample list where this works? I'm just curious of the opportunity cost of casting miasma, clandestine etc. on a 160 pt disco lord. Somehow also keeping the disco lord consciously over 12 inches away (on your opponents turn) and still being able to charge it (reliably) into combat against good targets. I also question the ability to reliably stack all these buffs, keeping the disco lord near an apostle etc, where the apostle I think moves 6? and the discolord 14 typically. I think a lot of people are still wrapping their heads around the new traits available in the latest chaos release (alpha strats etc.) so I guess I could see this working but I'm just curious what your list looks like with this advice? Do you have some battle reports or tournament results to share?
This will likely come off as potentially rude, and I don't really mean it that way, but the alpha legion advice shared has the flavor (at face value) of a typical example of "if we stack every buff in the army perfectly the numbers are ridiculous!" - of course this is an exaggeration in this case but hopefully elucidates the point. Where most of the time this never happens in a game against a savy opponent becuase they 1) Know what you can do and will stretch you or 2) The units that are needed to pull it off don't operate the same way (see movement and the need for discolord to be in melee to be effective), or 3) the opportunity cost is poor/not sustainable etc. That said, this could be similar to the case of where everyone thought DG Termis were hot garbage and then they quickly became a meta staple after someone won BAO with a stack...
Just to share some data the flawless host perspective comes from a known ITC tournament grade track record - really its just about redundancy and target saturation. If they kill 1, 2 or even all 3 discolords before they get into melee its certainly not ideal but means hopefully the knights etc. aren't bracketed. This is a more holistic look at how the discolords function in an overall list. Its phased out now s/p SM dominating the meta but it was seen in early 2019, I just picked one that came up first. For example is the third place list:
https://www.40kstats.com/crucible8
Target saturation especially the list you present was prior space Marin meta bust. And because I don't want to get flamed about lists I love just mention that the diiscolod with -4 is followed not from knights butt from a bigger blob of possessed ,hq that all go as a big blob or disco served as frontal unkiillable unit to use conceal . After round 1 usually dies but all buffs go to possessed and then to hq. Comparing a flawless host using disco for threat saturation in a knight list is not the same as a frontal unit disco you don't want to charge and should not charge early cause he is there so you protect your possesed .
Disco Lord in current metta are not as good as they where because their prior good damage with flawless dos not matter since their 2+ armor is no more enough to survive vs Marine lists etc. And that's only to start about current lists .
@Yoda79 so… your Disco Lord dances a Matrix jig in front of Possessed and some heroes, demanding the enemy unit shoots at himself instead of them? I like it. Quite a few moving parts, but a very nice self-contained Supreme Command or Battalion.
I’m guessing this is part of a Slaan or Nurgle DP list, so these units can advance & charge? I imagine it’s a trio of Slaanesh heroes provided auras, stabbing, and spells?
I can see it being well matched with some Word Bearers or Night Lords heroes to prevent fall back.
The disco lord who is -4 to hit allows you to play conceal on the unit of possessed, so they cant be targeted, unless they are the closest visible unit. The unit of possessed protect the characters from getting shot, except for snipers. Here is a video from d6evolution explaining it : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mxu0YX_i5Bo
Alpha legion is definitely the way to go if you're running one lord discordant. If you're running 3 flawless host is worth using. I've seen it work really well with 3 purge Daredeos and a lot of plaguebearers.
That -4 possessed bomb is single-handedly making a lot of competitive players abandon Tau as a faction, apparently, according to a podcast I was listening to (sorry, can't remember which one).
grouchoben wrote: That -4 possessed bomb is single-handedly making a lot of competitive players abandon Tau as a faction, apparently, according to a podcast I was listening to (sorry, can't remember which one).
Here's a good breakdown of why this build is single-handidly wiping Tau from the meta, by Vontysk over on r/competitive40k:
Tau is absolutely hard hard countered by the possessed bomb. Not "difficult to get past" or "tough unless you get some good dice rolls", but absolutely, unquestionably, pack up your army and go home, hard countered.
-4 to hit character out at front: Tau physically can't get enough markerlights on target, meaning the only things that can shoot at the character are Commanders, of which you can only have 3. Plus unlike pretty much all other armies Tau have no +1 to hit strategies - they have to rely on markerlights, but that only works if you can get 5 of them to hit (not that Tau only has max 4 BS2+ (i.e. hitting on 6s) markerlight sources).
Untargetable possessed behind that, meaning you can't whittle them down before they get close.
You have to rely on FTGG since it's the only chance you get to shoot. That means you need to castle up.
Once the possessed are in combat, they can stop you falling back and thereby invalidate Fly - which is Tau's only answer to combat.
Tau doesn't have anything to counterattack and free trapped units. Unlike other gunlines (Marines, AdMech), which have at least some solid melee options, Tau have...Kroot? Once the possessed touch a unit in the castle (which you can't possibly stop) it's GG.
lindsay40k wrote: @Yoda79 so… your Disco Lord dances a Matrix jig in front of Possessed and some heroes, demanding the enemy unit shoots at himself instead of them? I like it. Quite a few moving parts, but a very nice self-contained Supreme Command or Battalion.
I’m guessing this is part of a Slaan or Nurgle DP list, so these units can advance & charge? I imagine it’s a trio of Slaanesh heroes provided auras, stabbing, and spells?
I can see it being well matched with some Word Bearers or Night Lords heroes to prevent fall back.
D6evolution as posted has a detailed video about it.
What i wanted to explain a bit was the difference of playing flawless host and -4 disco. Since i was sure you could find details for both i just wanted to show the difference in play style on the same unit( i used 2x disco flawed-knihgt-morty). One list was played extensively Summer wise period and the other is one we ll see in LVO surely.
The discolord in the flawless have a suicidal role. they are in need to go fast charge get warptime on them to go 100% first turn inside enemy lines and you better have something like knights coming after them . Even so In the marine meta this list is going to fail badly. The easy 2+ armor of the discolord atm vs marines is 0 defence. So the whole point of getting them inside enemy lines to spread fear and multishots is no more. The discolords are now well known as many lists played them and everyone knows that you do not fear them anymore. Why cause flaw discos cant pass a simple screen. YOU get a screen yo uobliterate it and thats it you stay in front of enemy fire and in the current meta you die. you better of with any other trick from crystals to tsons scout moves etc etc etc than having a disco carnifex. they dont deliver what they used to. Simply put they dont have fly and most players know the plan by now.
Same unit in the possed list instead of 3 discolords you take 1 discolord. You take the discolord because its a) char slot and can fit in a supreme command that usually has AL 3xhq and possesed. B) the size of the model harder to hide and its value ofc in taking all the buffs turn 1-2 then give them all to your bomb..
YOU do not have the discolord to rush in front. Instead is serving the opposite role. As mentioned Tau delete lists cause of this disco. He is to remain in frontal position with all buffs on him -4 to hit him and conceal possesed. You dont rush him you dont charge him you dont want him be super killer. ITs part of a plan with nurglins to cover your possesed bomb .Now if your Pbomb makes it close then ofc he can go and he can still play nicely with his good att -1 to enemy veh etc. But it its not the discolord warlord that will dis out 30 attacks with flawless warlord trait and relic etc.
If you want my advice do not invest in a triple discolord in anything in the current meta. Using 160 point in your list is one thing wasting 3x160+ is a big issue.
Don't Tau have the seeker missiles hitting on unmodified 2+ after 2 markerlights?
The "Hard countered T'au" maybe means that the 50 shield drone list cannot beat the possessed. That's normal rock paper scissors. If you spend 600+ points on pure defense against shooting and I play an army that doesn't shoot, this means you are on a disadvantage from the get go.
The possessed bomb makes the netlist of the T'au invalid, just as the triple TFC + tremor shells made plaguebearer lists invalid. It's more a problem because T'au don't have any other list option rather than the possessed being problematic by themselves.
topaxygouroun i wrote: Don't Tau have the seeker missiles hitting on unmodified 2+ after 2 markerlights?
The "Hard countered T'au" maybe means that the 50 shield drone list cannot beat the possessed. That's normal rock paper scissors. If you spend 600+ points on pure defense against shooting and I play an army that doesn't shoot, this means you are on a disadvantage from the get go.
The possessed bomb makes the netlist of the T'au invalid, just as the triple TFC + tremor shells made plaguebearer lists invalid. It's more a problem because T'au don't have any other list option rather than the possessed being problematic by themselves.
counterpoint, 2 marker missiles, on a -4 discolord, is about how likely?
topaxygouroun i wrote: Don't Tau have the seeker missiles hitting on unmodified 2+ after 2 markerlights?
The "Hard countered T'au" maybe means that the 50 shield drone list cannot beat the possessed. That's normal rock paper scissors. If you spend 600+ points on pure defense against shooting and I play an army that doesn't shoot, this means you are on a disadvantage from the get go.
The possessed bomb makes the netlist of the T'au invalid, just as the triple TFC + tremor shells made plaguebearer lists invalid. It's more a problem because T'au don't have any other list option rather than the possessed being problematic by themselves.
Sounds like the simplest way to adjust is Kroot to screen to be honest.
topaxygouroun i wrote: Don't Tau have the seeker missiles hitting on unmodified 2+ after 2 markerlights?
The "Hard countered T'au" maybe means that the 50 shield drone list cannot beat the possessed. That's normal rock paper scissors. If you spend 600+ points on pure defense against shooting and I play an army that doesn't shoot, this means you are on a disadvantage from the get go.
The possessed bomb makes the netlist of the T'au invalid, just as the triple TFC + tremor shells made plaguebearer lists invalid. It's more a problem because T'au don't have any other list option rather than the possessed being problematic by themselves.
Sounds like the simplest way to adjust is Kroot to screen to be honest.
Kroot screen equals perfect place to lock something in combat and have a turn where you don't need to spend 2 cp on conceal. Kill them in the tau players turn and then you have an easy charge turn 2/3. It really is tau and guard kryptonite.
topaxygouroun i wrote: Don't Tau have the seeker missiles hitting on unmodified 2+ after 2 markerlights?
The "Hard countered T'au" maybe means that the 50 shield drone list cannot beat the possessed. That's normal rock paper scissors. If you spend 600+ points on pure defense against shooting and I play an army that doesn't shoot, this means you are on a disadvantage from the get go.
The possessed bomb makes the netlist of the T'au invalid, just as the triple TFC + tremor shells made plaguebearer lists invalid. It's more a problem because T'au don't have any other list option rather than the possessed being problematic by themselves.
Sounds like the simplest way to adjust is Kroot to screen to be honest.
Kroot screen equals perfect place to lock something in combat and have a turn where you don't need to spend 2 cp on conceal. Kill them in the tau players turn and then you have an easy charge turn 2/3. It really is tau and guard kryptonite.
They have an infiltration equivalent to be a roadblock and they're pretty darn easy to kill by accident if you try to get next to them.
topaxygouroun i wrote: Don't Tau have the seeker missiles hitting on unmodified 2+ after 2 markerlights?
The "Hard countered T'au" maybe means that the 50 shield drone list cannot beat the possessed. That's normal rock paper scissors. If you spend 600+ points on pure defense against shooting and I play an army that doesn't shoot, this means you are on a disadvantage from the get go.
The possessed bomb makes the netlist of the T'au invalid, just as the triple TFC + tremor shells made plaguebearer lists invalid. It's more a problem because T'au don't have any other list option rather than the possessed being problematic by themselves.
LOL no. Seeker missiles get to fire at the shooter's BS at 2 ML. At 5 ML they get the +1 to hit that everything Tau gets. So 2 ML to get to hit on 3+ for hammerheads/skyrays and 4+ for Devilfish/Broadsides. Competitive Tau isn't good because of their shooting. They are good because of their ablative wounds from SP. Their shooting is honestly kind of awful considering they can't melee or psyker.
topaxygouroun i wrote: Don't Tau have the seeker missiles hitting on unmodified 2+ after 2 markerlights?
The "Hard countered T'au" maybe means that the 50 shield drone list cannot beat the possessed. That's normal rock paper scissors. If you spend 600+ points on pure defense against shooting and I play an army that doesn't shoot, this means you are on a disadvantage from the get go.
The possessed bomb makes the netlist of the T'au invalid, just as the triple TFC + tremor shells made plaguebearer lists invalid. It's more a problem because T'au don't have any other list option rather than the possessed being problematic by themselves.
LOL no. Seeker missiles get to fire at the shooter's BS at 2 ML. At 5 ML they get the +1 to hit that everything Tau gets. So 2 ML to get to hit on 3+ for hammerheads/skyrays and 4+ for Devilfish/Broadsides. Competitive Tau isn't good because of their shooting. They are good because of their ablative wounds from SP. Their shooting is honestly kind of awful considering they can't melee or psyker.
there are as said before 4 potential sources for 2+ ML,s which would ultimately be 6+ hits.
Without a reroll your chances are one 4/6 , so a bit more then 1 hit.
however since you require 2 you need to half that, so statistically speaking, it 2/6th.
topaxygouroun i wrote: Don't Tau have the seeker missiles hitting on unmodified 2+ after 2 markerlights?
The "Hard countered T'au" maybe means that the 50 shield drone list cannot beat the possessed. That's normal rock paper scissors. If you spend 600+ points on pure defense against shooting and I play an army that doesn't shoot, this means you are on a disadvantage from the get go.
The possessed bomb makes the netlist of the T'au invalid, just as the triple TFC + tremor shells made plaguebearer lists invalid. It's more a problem because T'au don't have any other list option rather than the possessed being problematic by themselves.
LOL no. Seeker missiles get to fire at the shooter's BS at 2 ML. At 5 ML they get the +1 to hit that everything Tau gets. So 2 ML to get to hit on 3+ for hammerheads/skyrays and 4+ for Devilfish/Broadsides. Competitive Tau isn't good because of their shooting. They are good because of their ablative wounds from SP. Their shooting is honestly kind of awful considering they can't melee or psyker.
At bs 3+ they are hitting on 7s, you need to land 5 ML, which even with uplinked markerlight you'd be lucky to do, to hit on 6s. And because you're not dealing with big muti wound damage but lots of d1 and d2 possessed that throw out 15 mortals in the fight phase saviour protocols won't work well.
Not to be a negative point on this but my Tau force wouldnt be bothered by this kind of thing. The easiest way a tau army could deal with it is run flamers. The trick would be running stealth suits / ghost keels and give the 3x3 stealth suits the homing beacon. Beacon gets dropped t2 and allows a large crisis suit team to deep strike in within 6" of the beacon (yes this means they can come in within flamer range) and then wooosh. Run the crisis as flamers and give them a ATS to make those auto hitting flamers ap-1. Shield drones work to protect the suits vs close combat. Farsite can actually fight in cc. So can the suits. I ran this list in a local tournament (not a major itc or anything like that I am not assuming it would always work) and actually won my first 2 games with it, 1 vs new marines (ironhands had no idea what hit them) and 1 vs imperial guard (I proved that even russes can burn when hit by 6d6 auto hitting str 4 ap-1 hits using the command strat for rerolls).
My long winded point is while the possessed bomb is definitely a hard counter to the typical tau net list it's the tau players job to find a way around it. Is trying to fight chaos in close range combat a good idea? Probably not but what other choice do the tau have? Lol.
Back onto the topic of chaos I personally still dont care for alpha legion but I do understand why people like them, they are a very good option. Personally I have had a ton of success with flawless host, just the sheer number of attacks a basic marine can put out if needed is quite good. But if talking about disco lords I prefer black legion. Run 1 as warlord with indomitable trait so he takes half dmg, then mark of nurgle and dark apostle for easy to do -2 to hit, and use him to buff deamon engines in his vicinity.
Azuza001 wrote: Not to be a negative point on this but my Tau force wouldnt be bothered by this kind of thing. The easiest way a tau army could deal with it is run flamers. The trick would be running stealth suits / ghost keels and give the 3x3 stealth suits the homing beacon. Beacon gets dropped t2 and allows a large crisis suit team to deep strike in within 6" of the beacon (yes this means they can come in within flamer range) and then wooosh. Run the crisis as flamers and give them a ATS to make those auto hitting flamers ap-1. Shield drones work to protect the suits vs close combat. Farsite can actually fight in cc. So can the suits. I ran this list in a local tournament (not a major itc or anything like that I am not assuming it would always work) and actually won my first 2 games with it, 1 vs new marines (ironhands had no idea what hit them) and 1 vs imperial guard (I proved that even russes can burn when hit by 6d6 auto hitting str 4 ap-1 hits using the command strat for rerolls).
My long winded point is while the possessed bomb is definitely a hard counter to the typical tau net list it's the tau players job to find a way around it. Is trying to fight chaos in close range combat a good idea? Probably not but what other choice do the tau have? Lol.
Back onto the topic of chaos I personally still dont care for alpha legion but I do understand why people like them, they are a very good option. Personally I have had a ton of success with flawless host, just the sheer number of attacks a basic marine can put out if needed is quite good. But if talking about disco lords I prefer black legion. Run 1 as warlord with indomitable trait so he takes half dmg, then mark of nurgle and dark apostle for easy to do -2 to hit, and use him to buff deamon engines in his vicinity.
Alpha legon have a strat to make deepstrikers land 12" away, and a second to shoot a unit that lands within 18".
I think if you're looking to maximise attacks on anything but lord discordants then you could just run world eaters. Marines with chainsword have 4 attacks each and can take an icon to reroll charges but bezerkers stil outpreform any troops choice we have. If i had more than 20 bezerkers I would try a hoarde of bezerkers spamming apocalyptic frenzy. You could get 100 bezerkers up the board pretty quickly and although they'd die in droves when they connect it would be massively messy. Even if just 30 make it into your lines it's pretty much gg.
Azuza001 wrote: Not to be a negative point on this but my Tau force wouldnt be bothered by this kind of thing.
So what you're saying is that if you tailored your list to counter this thing, you could counter this thing.
What a stunning revelation.
What you later said is true, but here, I think, is the crux of it:
"...it's the tau players job to find a way around it."
You could say the same about any army, but more to the point in a tournament setting your can't just build a Tau army to fight one specific Chaos list, as you'll end up dying to everything else. The reason lists like this Chaos list work is because the general meta isn't ready for it. Anyone can tailor their list to beat a specific other list. Beating this at a tournament, if it is as unstoppable as some seem to be intimating, without tailoring your list to beat it would be the real test.
Azuza001 wrote: Not to be a negative point on this but my Tau force wouldnt be bothered by this kind of thing.
So what you're saying is that if you tailored your list to counter this thing, you could counter this thing.
What a stunning revelation.
What you later said is true, but here, I think, is the crux of it:
"...it's the tau players job to find a way around it."
You could say the same about any army, but more to the point in a tournament setting your can't just build a Tau army to fight one specific Chaos list, as you'll end up dying to everything else. The reason lists like this Chaos list work is because the general meta isn't ready for it. Anyone can tailor their list to beat a specific other list. Beating this at a tournament, if it is as unstoppable as some seem to be intimating, without tailoring your list to beat it would be the real test.
i also really doubt that 6D6 S4 ap-1 D1 flammers really hurt a blob of possessed.
like each posessed has allready W2, a 3+ armor, can carry a lot of further buffs.
on average he can expect 21 hits. of which only 10.5 wound, of which 5.25 get ignored by armour, that is 3 dead possessed, maybee, if lucky.
Further, due to AL, chances are you get denied and have a bunch of stealthsuits sitting around now with flamers.
Further further, say hello to ambsuh, and or lord discordant bully.
topaxygouroun i wrote: Don't Tau have the seeker missiles hitting on unmodified 2+ after 2 markerlights?
The "Hard countered T'au" maybe means that the 50 shield drone list cannot beat the possessed. That's normal rock paper scissors. If you spend 600+ points on pure defense against shooting and I play an army that doesn't shoot, this means you are on a disadvantage from the get go.
The possessed bomb makes the netlist of the T'au invalid, just as the triple TFC + tremor shells made plaguebearer lists invalid. It's more a problem because T'au don't have any other list option rather than the possessed being problematic by themselves.
LOL no. Seeker missiles get to fire at the shooter's BS at 2 ML. At 5 ML they get the +1 to hit that everything Tau gets. So 2 ML to get to hit on 3+ for hammerheads/skyrays and 4+ for Devilfish/Broadsides. Competitive Tau isn't good because of their shooting. They are good because of their ablative wounds from SP. Their shooting is honestly kind of awful considering they can't melee or psyker.
At bs 3+ they are hitting on 7s, you need to land 5 ML, which even with uplinked markerlight you'd be lucky to do, to hit on 6s. And because you're not dealing with big muti wound damage but lots of d1 and d2 possessed that throw out 15 mortals in the fight phase saviour protocols won't work well.
Oh I wasn't very clear. I was agreeing with you guys that Tau will not be able to reliably hit it. The best way to get markerlights on something like that would be a Sac'cea Sept locked strategem that auto places markerlights in an AOE around a unit. From there, BS2+ ML are spammed until one hits and rerolling 1s slightly increases the odds to ~20% per markerlight. If it does hit, uplinked markerlight will have about a 33% chance which is increased to ~55% if they use a command reroll. That's roughly 4CP and terrible odds.
The Y'Vahra is the most likely answer with a S6 Ap-3 D3 14" flamer (assuming Borkan Sept). They are overcosted and frequently outrun their drone support so screening for smite is a lot less likely.
No offense HBMC but I never said I wrote my list to counter the possessed bomb. I said this is the list I have been running for a few months now as tau and it has had a lot of success locally. People expect tau gun line that doesn't move, not tau in your face close range assault.
I run a squad of 6 bodyguard crisis suits. Each has 2 flamers and an ATS. That's 12d6 potential auto hits. Add the strat to have a commander not shoot but those bodyguards get to reroll failed wounds for 1cp (command and control node) and it's the most effective counter to a lot of different types of lists. That's also why I mentioned it worked well vs iron hands and imperial guard.
Is it something chaos players should worry about? I couldn't tell you, other than my own experience as a chaos player and a tau player. But it does show that the odd list out can swing a dont bother to play game into a fight.
At 23.33 wounds and a 4+ save that would be 11-12 wounds (ats makes it ap-1 on those flamers) and then there is farsight there to charge in and finish him. Not a guarantee at all, but it's still there.
Azuza001 wrote: At 23.33 wounds and a 4+ save that would be 11-12 wounds (ats makes it ap-1 on those flamers) and then there is farsight there to charge in and finish him. Not a guarantee at all, but it's still there.
Could someone give me some advice on how to kit out contemptor dreadnoughts?
I really want to build them with one close combat weapon and a Butcher Cannon but I'm not sure if the Chainclaw is worth the extra 10pts and which weapon to put into the claw arm?
I was thinking Chainclaw, Butcher Cannon Hell Flamer and Havoc Launcher. It comes in at 166pts, the flamer would be helpful when moving in to attack and if it gets counter charged and if the butcher cannon gets at least a wound whatever the dread charges would have a pretty rough leadership test later.
I'm new to the game but I really like the idea of a claw and a big cannon on the thing so any advice on how I should kit it out more exactly?
What this here dakkanaut is trying to tell, the hybrid loadout is due to gw ruledesign inherntly worse then a pure shooting or stabbing one.
That said, consider magnetisation.
Yes either go full shooting or full assault. An assault oriented contemptor can still have ok shooting. I run ectoplasma blasters in my double chainclaw contemptor to vaporize primaris or soften up harder targets before charging in to hack them to pieces. Just don't expect to be both a gun platform and an assault unit.
What this here dakkanaut is trying to tell, the hybrid loadout is due to gw ruledesign inherntly worse then a pure shooting or stabbing one.
That said, consider magnetisation.
Magnetisation might be something I consider doing but since it's a bit of a conversion project I would basically have to make weapons to magnetize
I get that full ranged Dreadnought might be more efficient but I don't want to use that and I'm not sure I'm convince the full melee one is better...
Chainclaw + Deathclaw +2x combi-bolter and havoc is 148.
Chainclaw + Butcher Cannon + Hellflamer and Havoc is 166.
For that 18pt difference I get 1 less melee attack and like 4-8 blinky bolter shots less but gain 4x 3+ hitting (when moving) S8 -1 D2 shots on the approach and a heavy flamer. That trade off seems super worth 18 pts to me?
If I trade the flamer for a combi bolter that's instead 3 pts difference for the butcher cannon in exchange for -1 attack and half the bolter shots.
Am I thinking weirdly about this? With the assumption that I want a minimum of one close combat weapon on it would it not be better to bring a range weapon instead of the second claws?
One gun + One Melee weapon is okay if you're keeping the shooting weapon cheap like a TL Heavy Bolter or Autocannon. The extra attack from the two melee weapons seems great, but in practice you won't need it a lot and being able to plink wounds off low model count units is good so you can continue focus fire elsewhere.
The real question is where do you see the Contemptor fitting into the army?
If it's hanging out in your DZ, the Chainclaw is there to clear out deepstrikers and you've basically made a bulldog to patrol your backfield. You'll be putting out less damage downrange though as you lose a ranged weapon.
If you're moving into the midfield to assault, you present a priority threat to the enemy and you're probably going to be focused on. In that case you don't want to invest too many points in the Contemptor's ranged shooting, as it's going to get blown away pretty quickly. So in that case, a lot of people prefer to maximize their CC damage and keep the model cheap.
I think you can make a case for mixed-loadout Helbrutes that come in at <100pts with a Combi. But they also have a few special rules and stratagems that Contemptors don't get.
Yoyoyo wrote: The real question is where do you see the Contemptor fitting into the army?
If it's hanging out in your DZ, the Chainclaw is there to clear out deepstrikers and you've basically made a bulldog to patrol your backfield. You'll be putting out less damage downrange though as you lose a ranged weapon.
If you're moving into the midfield to assault, you present a priority threat to the enemy and you're probably going to be focused on. In that case you don't want to invest too many points in the Contemptor's ranged shooting, as it's going to get blown away pretty quickly. So in that case, a lot of people prefer to maximize their CC damage and keep the model cheap.
I think you can make a case for mixed-loadout Helbrutes that come in at <100pts with a Combi. But they also have a few special rules and stratagems that Contemptors don't get.
Helbrutes are absolutely awful at trying to be mixed loadout.
Maulerfiends don't need to strike at WS3 because of weight of attacks + lashes.
Also if you're just Helbrutes for them to exist...why get them at all? They're slow as molasses, so even keeping one melee weapon on them is bad. At that point just buy two guns.
Because they're cheap and versatile, which they would no longer be if they had two guns.
- If I want it to move fast and assault something, I have Warptime and Diabolic Strength.
- If I need it to shoot at a target 36" away, I have Prescience and Fire Frenzy.
- If I just want to sit on a midfield objective and secure a VP, it's cheaper than a Rhino and a CSM squad.
Can a Maulerfiend cast Warptime on itself? Well if not, I have to save points somewhere.
Loyalist Space Marines don't even use their basic Dreads with one gun one fist. They get a TON more benefits as well. You are seriously suggesting Chaos Marines do that. You're also suggesting using fire frenzy and casting presence on a one gun unit. That's honestly hilarious to me.
Yoyoyo wrote: Because they're cheap and versatile, which they would no longer be if they had two guns.
- If I want it to move fast and assault something, I have Warptime and Diabolic Strength.
- If I need it to shoot at a target 36" away, I have Prescience and Fire Frenzy. - If I just want to sit on a midfield objective and secure a VP, it's cheaper than a Rhino and a CSM squad.
Can a Maulerfiend cast Warptime on itself? Well if not, I have to save points somewhere.
Probably just a troop. Since you can't choose FF targets, you want something useful against multiple targets (like the HB) and with decent range. Not much point putting Lascannons into Guardsmen.
Slayer-Fan123: Loyalist Dreadnoughts are a *terrible* comparison. They don't get Warptime, they don't get Diabolical Strength, they don't get Crazed, so they don't function the same way. SM also have a much stronger troops slot and can take 3dmg hammers on their Sergeants! As I said before -- find me a CHEAPER option in the CSM codex. Spoiler: you won't.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: You're also suggesting using fire frenzy and casting presence on a one gun unit.
Absolutely. You're not going to take them to kill Knights but you have 12x HB and 8x Combi shots on-call to take a troop off a scoring objective in the lategame. Use them opportunistically. Hide them, chase down Intercessors without CC weapons, dump cheap shooting where it's useful, advance onto objectives and score VP with them. Do you think I'm advising you to base an entire army's strategy around a unit that costs less than 100pts? Come on, man.
They wouldn't work in ITC due to the nature of the mission format but they're really fun to play in casual games.
Any weapon option will work as long as it's cheap, I think. The point to watch out for is if Helbrutes get too high profile, they just evaporate. You really want them to fly under the radar so they only take chip damage (to set up Crazed rolls) or so you can jump an unsuspecting target with D-Srength and Warptime.
I like the HB/Fist/Combi as the Helbrute can murder T3 infantry with its guns, and deal with more elite units (Primaris, Custodes, etc.) in combat.
As far as pure fire support goes, I couldn't say but then they're competing against Contemptors (more durable, BS2+, good Invul save, etc), which I think are much better qualities for a gun platform.
Maulerfiends dont care about ws4 because of the demonic engine strat, the one that for 1cp let's you reroll failed hits and wounds vs a target. I have had incredible luck with a maulerfiend of slaanesh and a herald of slaanesh on a steed. T1 mauler advances, warptime if you need it, keep with within 6" of herald, t1 charge with reroll hits and wounds. It will kill things very easily and buy you the time you need to get the rest of your army into range for t2.
Yoyoyo wrote: Any weapon option will work as long as it's cheap, I think. The point to watch out for is if Helbrutes get too high profile, they just evaporate. You really want them to fly under the radar so they only take chip damage (to set up Crazed rolls) or so you can jump an unsuspecting target with D-Srength and Warptime.
I like the HB/Fist/Combi as the Helbrute can murder T3 infantry with its guns, and deal with more elite units (Primaris, Custodes, etc.) in combat.
As far as pure fire support goes, I couldn't say but then they're competing against Contemptors (more durable, BS2+, good Invul save, etc), which I think are much better qualities for a gun platform.
TBH, for 90 pts, the Reaper ML version, is frankly worth it.
Also, it get's ignored because "it's just a Hellbrute" more often then not, not a contemptor, or as imposing as a Butcher Cannon decimtor or it's dread brothers.
And honestly who's gonna waste Warptime on a Helbrute? I'm sorry but that's just bad 40k. There's TONS of better targets to use it on.
Outside pure shooting, they're just bad, period.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: And honestly who's gonna waste Warptime on a Helbrute? I'm sorry but that's just bad 40k. There's TONS of better targets to use it on.
Outside pure shooting, they're just bad, period.
Nah. They have a great CC weapon and good WS, so they're very useful to have in the later turns of the game when armies are getting mixed up together and you're out of CP.
Like 'Not Online!!!' was saying, the attitude is "they're just a Helbrute" so they won't be targeted. And as Azuza001 said, there's much more imposing T1 door-kickers. Who want to prioritize shooting 90-100pt Helbrutes when a Daemonforge'd Maulerfiend with Herald backup is already rampaging through their lines? Nobody.
There's a place for economy units. Tiger Tanks might have been vastly superior to M4 Shermans on a 1-to-1 basis, but that's irrelevant when the latter outnumbers the former by something like 2000 to 1.
https://www.discovermagazine.com/technology/good-enough-tanks-won-wwii wrote:Sometimes a "good enough" military technology can achieve victory over better military technologies. Such a fact probably gave very little comfort to the five-man crews of U.S. Sherman tanks who faced an uphill battle against more powerful German tanks during World War II. British tank crews gave Sherman tanks the unflattering nickname "Ronson" — a grim reference to the Ronson cigarette lighter's ad slogan "lights first every time" and the unfortunate fact that Sherman tanks often burned after taking just one hit. But that did not stop the U.S. from supplying tens of thousands of Sherman tanks to U.S., British, Canadian and other Allied forces, tipping the scales against the smaller numbers of elite German tanks on World War II battlefields.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: And honestly who's gonna waste Warptime on a Helbrute? I'm sorry but that's just bad 40k. There's TONS of better targets to use it on.
Outside pure shooting, they're just bad, period.
in a pinch when a frontline breaks and you aboslutely positively need to tie something down?
Also dual lasher hellbrutes are not too be underestimated.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: And honestly who's gonna waste Warptime on a Helbrute? I'm sorry but that's just bad 40k. There's TONS of better targets to use it on.
Outside pure shooting, they're just bad, period.
Nah. They have a great CC weapon and good WS, so they're very useful to have in the later turns of the game when armies are getting mixed up together and you're out of CP.
Like 'Not Online!!!' was saying, the attitude is "they're just a Helbrute" so they won't be targeted. And as Azuza001 said, there's much more imposing T1 door-kickers. Who want to prioritize shooting 90-100pt Helbrutes when a Daemonforge'd Maulerfiend with Herald backup is already rampaging through their lines? Nobody.
There's a place for economy units. Tiger Tanks might have been vastly superior to M4 Shermans on a 1-to-1 basis, but that's irrelevant when the latter outnumbers the former by something like 2000 to 1.
https://www.discovermagazine.com/technology/good-enough-tanks-won-wwii wrote:Sometimes a "good enough" military technology can achieve victory over better military technologies. Such a fact probably gave very little comfort to the five-man crews of U.S. Sherman tanks who faced an uphill battle against more powerful German tanks during World War II. British tank crews gave Sherman tanks the unflattering nickname "Ronson" — a grim reference to the Ronson cigarette lighter's ad slogan "lights first every time" and the unfortunate fact that Sherman tanks often burned after taking just one hit. But that did not stop the U.S. from supplying tens of thousands of Sherman tanks to U.S., British, Canadian and other Allied forces, tipping the scales against the smaller numbers of elite German tanks on World War II battlefields.
You know what's better than "economy" units? Not taking them in the first place! Also Helbrutes aren't outnumbering any target to be dangerous in any manner.
Remember you're not forced to take something in your Elite slot!
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: And honestly who's gonna waste Warptime on a Helbrute? I'm sorry but that's just bad 40k. There's TONS of better targets to use it on.
Outside pure shooting, they're just bad, period.
Nah. They have a great CC weapon and good WS, so they're very useful to have in the later turns of the game when armies are getting mixed up together and you're out of CP.
Like 'Not Online!!!' was saying, the attitude is "they're just a Helbrute" so they won't be targeted. And as Azuza001 said, there's much more imposing T1 door-kickers. Who want to prioritize shooting 90-100pt Helbrutes when a Daemonforge'd Maulerfiend with Herald backup is already rampaging through their lines? Nobody.
There's a place for economy units. Tiger Tanks might have been vastly superior to M4 Shermans on a 1-to-1 basis, but that's irrelevant when the latter outnumbers the former by something like 2000 to 1.
https://www.discovermagazine.com/technology/good-enough-tanks-won-wwii wrote:Sometimes a "good enough" military technology can achieve victory over better military technologies. Such a fact probably gave very little comfort to the five-man crews of U.S. Sherman tanks who faced an uphill battle against more powerful German tanks during World War II. British tank crews gave Sherman tanks the unflattering nickname "Ronson" — a grim reference to the Ronson cigarette lighter's ad slogan "lights first every time" and the unfortunate fact that Sherman tanks often burned after taking just one hit. But that did not stop the U.S. from supplying tens of thousands of Sherman tanks to U.S., British, Canadian and other Allied forces, tipping the scales against the smaller numbers of elite German tanks on World War II battlefields.
You know what's better than "economy" units? Not taking them in the first place! Also Helbrutes aren't outnumbering any target to be dangerous in any manner.
Remember you're not forced to take something in your Elite slot!
and let's say you have 90 pts, in what do you invest these?
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: And honestly who's gonna waste Warptime on a Helbrute? I'm sorry but that's just bad 40k. There's TONS of better targets to use it on.
Outside pure shooting, they're just bad, period.
in a pinch when a frontline breaks and you aboslutely positively need to tie something down?
Also dual lasher hellbrutes are not too be underestimated.
If the opponent is at the frontline that's gonna be close for where the supposed 1 gun 1 fist Helbrute would be in the first place.
Also for not many more points you can get Maulerfiends with Lashes instead, and they actually synergize with one of our best units (Disco Lords) and Daemon allies. Anything close to being a melee Helbrute simply has no place. Loyalists can do it a million times better (and on a Ven Dread for WS/BS2+) and it's still not done.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: And honestly who's gonna waste Warptime on a Helbrute? I'm sorry but that's just bad 40k. There's TONS of better targets to use it on.
Outside pure shooting, they're just bad, period.
Nah. They have a great CC weapon and good WS, so they're very useful to have in the later turns of the game when armies are getting mixed up together and you're out of CP.
Like 'Not Online!!!' was saying, the attitude is "they're just a Helbrute" so they won't be targeted. And as Azuza001 said, there's much more imposing T1 door-kickers. Who want to prioritize shooting 90-100pt Helbrutes when a Daemonforge'd Maulerfiend with Herald backup is already rampaging through their lines? Nobody.
There's a place for economy units. Tiger Tanks might have been vastly superior to M4 Shermans on a 1-to-1 basis, but that's irrelevant when the latter outnumbers the former by something like 2000 to 1.
https://www.discovermagazine.com/technology/good-enough-tanks-won-wwii wrote:Sometimes a "good enough" military technology can achieve victory over better military technologies. Such a fact probably gave very little comfort to the five-man crews of U.S. Sherman tanks who faced an uphill battle against more powerful German tanks during World War II. British tank crews gave Sherman tanks the unflattering nickname "Ronson" — a grim reference to the Ronson cigarette lighter's ad slogan "lights first every time" and the unfortunate fact that Sherman tanks often burned after taking just one hit. But that did not stop the U.S. from supplying tens of thousands of Sherman tanks to U.S., British, Canadian and other Allied forces, tipping the scales against the smaller numbers of elite German tanks on World War II battlefields.
You know what's better than "economy" units? Not taking them in the first place! Also Helbrutes aren't outnumbering any target to be dangerous in any manner.
Remember you're not forced to take something in your Elite slot!
and let's say you have 90 pts, in what do you invest these?
Spawn? Cultists? Bikers? Random Sorcerer or Dark Apostle (though the latter ain't exactly good overall)?
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: And honestly who's gonna waste Warptime on a Helbrute? I'm sorry but that's just bad 40k. There's TONS of better targets to use it on.
Outside pure shooting, they're just bad, period.
in a pinch when a frontline breaks and you aboslutely positively need to tie something down?
Also dual lasher hellbrutes are not too be underestimated.
Warptime on a helbrute with 12 melee attacks at WS3 S8 AP-2 D2 (dual power scourge) is not what i would call waste.
I always think about them in the context of the lategame.
If most of the min-maxed "good" units are dead and you need something that has to do the following:
- finish off a bracketed T7-T8 vehicle
- shoot down 10x Cultists at 18-24" trying for an objective
- remove MSU Intercessors from a point they want to defend
That's a lot to ask of a unit costing less than <100pts. So I think they offer pretty good value for the price point they're at.
Yoyoyo wrote: I always think about them in the context of the lategame.
If most of the min-maxed "good" units are dead and you need something that has to do the following:
- finish off a bracketed T7-T8 vehicle
- shoot down 10x Cultists at 18-24" trying for an objective
- remove MSU Intercessors from a point they want to defend
That's a lot to ask of a unit costing less than <100pts. So I think they offer pretty good value for the price point they're at.
Except it isn't a unit doing that for 100 points. You have to pour resources into doing any of those things. If you didn't base your list around taking them in the first place, that's suddenly no longer an issue.
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Yoyoyo wrote: You had a Dark Apostle in a Possessed list that went 6-0 at LVO in the main tournament, and which placed 13th overall.
"Ain't exactly good" you say?
If you don't understand the concept of synergy, your blather is not useful. It's just opinionated
"Something won once so it's good!" is the very definition of ignoring statistics and trends. And no I do understand synergy which is why I said to pay the little extra for the Maulerfiend. THAT can actually get synergy with all the good stuff.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: And no I do understand synergy which is why I said to pay the little extra for the Maulerfiend.
You clearly don't. As I said, I want a multi-role economy unit for the lategame to score VP for me and bully smaller units.
And I want it for <100pts, so I don't have to cut into very worthwhile upgrades like Thunder Hammers on Smash Lords.
As I said -- find a better option, at the same price or cheaper. You can't ignore relevant points values any more than you can simply run lists that bust agreed-on limits.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: And no I do understand synergy which is why I said to pay the little extra for the Maulerfiend.
You clearly don't. As I said, I want a multi-role economy unit for the lategame to score VP for me and bully smaller units.
And I want it for <100pts, so I don't have to cut into very worthwhile upgrades like Thunder Hammers on Smash Lords.
As I said -- find a better option, at the same price or cheaper. You can't ignore relevant points values any more than you can simply run lists that bust agreed-on limits.
Or I can just not pay for that unit in the list. Also Spawn will do adequately fine for whatever you wanted.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Also Spawn will do adequately fine for whatever you wanted.
They don't get Legion traits, they don't get ranged weapons, they don't hit at 3dmg, they don't benefit from Diabolical Strength to the same extent, they are 2" slower with Warptime, they can't trigger Crazed and have massive damage spikes, you get the idea.
Spawn make fantastic screens, but I don't think they're nearly as flexible.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: And honestly who's gonna waste Warptime on a Helbrute? I'm sorry but that's just bad 40k. There's TONS of better targets to use it on.
Outside pure shooting, they're just bad, period.
in a pinch when a frontline breaks and you aboslutely positively need to tie something down?
Also dual lasher hellbrutes are not too be underestimated.
Warptime on a helbrute with 12 melee attacks at WS3 S8 AP-2 D2 (dual power scourge) is not what i would call waste.
why warptime, Hellbrute actually profit from Traits. an RC hellbrute allready has an massive possible reach.
Been looking at Nortilith crown. 80 points to give such a big expanding area a 5++ aura plus other psychic stuff is pretty good. The more units you park near the Crown, the bigger the multiplier effect.
Like Predator tanks and hellbrutes (which was discussed above). These are so-so but with the 5++ invul given by the Crown, they suddenly become a lot more interesting.
And while the Crown does take up a slot. You can somewhat make up for that slot by taking a brigade since you might be taking hellbrutes and heavy support anyway. (3 spawn is just 60 points).
Plus the Crown makes even cultists a lot harder to kill now. A black legion shooty list based on Abby and Nortilith crown might be interesting, now that you have points drops across the board. Maybe can even fit in a lord of skulls. So, when everything that threaten armor has been taken out, the Lord of skulls can then move up the board.
We were going to have two units of Havocs, two double-Lascannon CSM squads, a TL-Las/ML Helbrute bunched up around a Noctilith with a pair of Forgefiends + Warpsmith supporting them, and a psyker with Prescience nearby for the odd bonus.
Never got a chance to use the list, but it could'a been fun.
H.B.M.C. wrote: We were going to have two units of Havocs, two double-Lascannon CSM squads, a TL-Las/ML Helbrute bunched up around a Noctilith with a pair of Forgefiends + Warpsmith supporting them, and a psyker with Prescience nearby for the odd bonus.
Never got a chance to use the list, but it could'a been fun.
I've got the models except for the Noctilith to make this sort of list - very tempted to give it a go!
The rest of the list were the "Rushing Forward" stuff, with a Disco Lord, Maulerfiend, Venomcrawler, 4 Reaper Havocs in a Rhino, two more Rhino Squads of CSMs (each with their own Exalted Champ), and then a couple of extra 5-man CSM squads to make up the numbers and get me 3 CSM squads in the Corsair detachment.
Eldenfirefly wrote: Been looking at Nortilith crown. 80 points to give such a big expanding area a 5++ aura plus other psychic stuff is pretty good. The more units you park near the Crown, the bigger the multiplier effect.
Like Predator tanks and hellbrutes (which was discussed above). These are so-so but with the 5++ invul given by the Crown, they suddenly become a lot more interesting.
And while the Crown does take up a slot. You can somewhat make up for that slot by taking a brigade since you might be taking hellbrutes and heavy support anyway. (3 spawn is just 60 points).
Plus the Crown makes even cultists a lot harder to kill now. A black legion shooty list based on Abby and Nortilith crown might be interesting, now that you have points drops across the board. Maybe can even fit in a lord of skulls. So, when everything that threaten armor has been taken out, the Lord of skulls can then move up the board.
Honest opinion, the Crown works a lot better for R&H then for csm.
Your Garden variety leman russ is a lot better then predator.
But what May be interesting to try would be a cultists army that way .
Considering, that with reroll on it for psy you could nigh guarantee a 5+++ or -1 to hit.
it kept them alive for a long time one game I kept 5 alive till turn 6. And the more turns you get out of them the less the randomness matters.
.
