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Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
That is unless you want to try and defend Revered Host as amazing somehow.

You don't consider damage output useful?

Yoyoyo wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
That is unless you want to try and defend Revered Host as amazing somehow.

You don't consider damage output useful?

It is on a unit that can actually make it to combat. Word Bearers don't have that ability with their Possessed, so no I don't consider it useful. You're opponent would literally have to decide it would be funny to charge Hellblasters into your Possessed so you could activate the Stratagem.
Now if it were a generic Stratagem it would be awesome for Alpha Legion. However it isn't, so that point doesn't matter at all, to be honest.

Personally I think all the rules are fun/nice. But space marines have entire supplements/books dedicated to one chapter.

I think a lot of us just feel that that's lopsided.

Where are our world eaters/nightlords/iron warriors books? Doctrines etc.

We have cool rules thanks to PA, no one is going to argue we don't have a neat toolbox.

Salt just comes in when you compare our toolbox to the neighbor's.

I would definitely disagree with Slayer. many of the legions all got stuff that made their armies not only more thematic, but also better when using those thematic units.

So, IW Havocs, vehicles, oblits, all got buffed in faith and fury from their strategems and warlord traits. They may not be IH level of opness, but they definitely got buffed.

Nighlords raptors and warptalons got buffed for sure. Plus warptalons got cheaper. And some nightlords strategems are very good.

Even world bearers got some buffs. Like that strategem that makes your psychic go off for sure.

And Emperors children noise marines are downright scary now, if an army list is built around having a big component of noise marines.

Even world eaters lists got buffs too. With the new WE strategems, like that 6 inch consolidate strategem, and then one that lets you push forward WE units 9 inches before game starts. They got a warlord trait that increases charge by 1 inch too. Thats a big deal for a WE army. and zerkers and CSM both got a points drop. So did the Lord of skulls. A WE army with mass angry marines, 1 LOS, and stuff all charging up the field is a viable list.

I think we shouldn't compare to SM level of opness. I don't really want CSM to be a carbon copy of SM, but just with spikes. I want CSM to have its own flavour. They have primaris, we have daemon engines. etc etc.

Eldenfirefly wrote:
I would definitely disagree with Slayer. many of the legions all got stuff that made their armies not only more thematic, but also better when using those thematic units.

So, IW Havocs, vehicles, oblits, all got buffed in faith and fury from their strategems and warlord traits. They may not be IH level of opness, but they definitely got buffed.

Nighlords raptors and warptalons got buffed for sure. Plus warptalons got cheaper. And some nightlords strategems are very good.

Even world bearers got some buffs. Like that strategem that makes your psychic go off for sure.

And Emperors children noise marines are downright scary now, if an army list is built around having a big component of noise marines.

Even world eaters lists got buffs too. With the new WE strategems, like that 6 inch consolidate strategem, and then one that lets you push forward WE units 9 inches before game starts. They got a warlord trait that increases charge by 1 inch too. Thats a big deal for a WE army. and zerkers and CSM both got a points drop. So did the Lord of skulls. A WE army with mass angry marines, 1 LOS, and stuff all charging up the field is a viable list.

Except all those things Alpha Legion are going to be doing better, so does it really matter? No it does not. Now I do think Night Lord Heldrakes are really good (gotta really make use of that giant base to get the most of Vox Scream) but that's it outside Alpha Legion. I'm not taking crappy Night Lords infantry just to prevent falling back. Nor am I taking crappy Children Noise Marines for a one-shot wonder, because there's already PLENTY of that in the codex as is.

You can take up to three different type of detachments in an army. You can take a 3 FA nightlords detachment if you hate the idea of FA infantry so much, or just 1 patrol night lord detachment, so 1 HQ, 1 cultist squad and that 1 helldrake.

I don't know why you think Emperor's children noise marines are crappy... You can make one squad T5 (from strategem) and then cast delightful agonies on them. a 20 man strong squad of T5 with 5+ FNP with the kind of shooting power that Emperor's children noise marines have is not bad at all... Anyway, even if they die, they get to shoot back. I don't know why you think they are bad at all...

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
It is on a unit that can actually make it to combat. Word Bearers don't have that ability with their Possessed, so no I don't consider it useful.

That's got nothing to do with the Revenant Hosts stratagem, which also applies to Exalted Possession HQs and Greater Possessed.

As to how to deliver Possessed units into combat, maybe you have it backwards. A lot of opponents want to sit back and castle in their DZ. If you have enough resilient board control, guarantee them they will lose on VP if they do this. If the enemy enters the midfield, then suddenly it's a lot more realistic to gank them with a 7" footslogger.

Yoyoyo wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
It is on a unit that can actually make it to combat. Word Bearers don't have that ability with their Possessed, so no I don't consider it useful.

That's got nothing to do with the Revenant Hosts stratagem, which also applies to Exalted Possession HQs and Greater Possessed.

As to how to deliver Possessed units into combat, maybe you have it backwards. A lot of opponents want to sit back and castle in their DZ. If you have enough resilient board control, guarantee them they will lose on VP if they do this. If the enemy enters the midfield, then suddenly it's a lot more realistic to gank them with a 7" footslogger.

Greater Possessed cannot get to melee either. So my point stands. Also it's wonderful you want to use the Strat on an HQ unit. That's a whole Warlord Trait, relic (because let's be honest you're probably doing that with the Axe relic so stuff won't fall back) and a Strat. Guess what? He'll still die next turn to anything worth a damn LOL.

Also it has everything to do with it because you want to make the most of the Strat itself. If you want to use it on one dude that's on you for wasting resources.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Eldenfirefly wrote:
You can take up to three different type of detachments in an army. You can take a 3 FA nightlords detachment if you hate the idea of FA infantry so much, or just 1 patrol night lord detachment, so 1 HQ, 1 cultist squad and that 1 helldrake.

I don't know why you think Emperor's children noise marines are crappy... You can make one squad T5 (from strategem) and then cast delightful agonies on them. a 20 man strong squad of T5 with 5+ FNP with the kind of shooting power that Emperor's children noise marines have is not bad at all... Anyway, even if they die, they get to shoot back. I don't know why you think they are bad at all...

They're bad because Children have a worthless Legion rule and the amount of resources poured into Noise Marines doesn't boost their performance a lot compared to the amount of buffs other Legions already get. It's not hard to understand.
Also imagine wanting to spend that many points on a squad that's easily stopped by a single model getting into melee with them LOL.

If spending a lot of points on a squad thats easily stopped by a single model getting into melee range of them is a bad idea, then that applies to just about every single ranged unit in the game that cannot fall back and shoot or isn't a Lord of skulls. So, obliterators, Havocs are all bad then?

In any case. your one single model in melee range will need to survive being hit by 20 noise marines in combat... Thats 60 attacks...

With strategems, the EC noise marines are rocking 120 shots of Damage 2... with a +1 to wound (VOTLW). That's a max 240 points of potential damage. You think that is somehow low? @_@ As a comparision, a squad of 3 obliterators shooting twice with max 3 dmg rolled on dmg both time will only do a max potential damage of 108 points of damage. Just how much damage must a unit put out before you consider the damage to be good?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Also imagine wanting to spend that many points on a squad that's easily stopped by a single model getting into melee with them LOL.

Heroically intervene (easy with the 6" stratagem), do it with a unit that has the Daemon keyword, fight in the psychic phase on your turn with Hysterical Frenzy... this isn't that complicated is it?

I think the core problem is you literally have no problem-solving ability. Or maybe you just don't play any army concept that does anything but point-and-click rules abuse? Iron Hands are that way, don't let the door hit you on your way out.

Out of world eaters, emperor's children and death guard, which faction uses the least number of models in general? Ie. Which is the most elite army?

Alkaline_Hound wrote:
Out of world eaters, emperor's children and death guard, which faction uses the least number of models in general? Ie. Which is the most elite army?

All can be made elite relatively easily, but if I had to choose an army to have a low model count I'd go deathguard. You'd have to use plague marines for troops, plagueburst crawlers are great for the points, blightlord Terminators are a great elite unit and mortarion is a useable and as elite as it gets.

If you want to make world eaters or emporers children elite you could look at using daemon engines and minimum troops as most people use a lot of khorne bezerkers and noise marines retrospectively. I'd also say that bezerkers are hard to use well, as you need to have a good understanding of the mele phase, piling in, heroic intervention etc. With emporers children and death guard you have less mass close combat so you have a less steep learing curve for a new army.

Alkaline_Hound wrote:
Out of world eaters, emperor's children and death guard, which faction uses the least number of models in general? Ie. Which is the most elite army?

Really depends on the build.

Deathguard followed by WE is my take.

With WE your body count is naturally going to be lower since your cult troops are 16ppm. (15 technically). But you fill in the rest of the army with generic csm stuff, so entirely build dependent there.

Deathguard have a lot of literal elite units and some big boys in plagueburst, morty, deathshroud termies.

Eldenfirefly wrote:
If spending a lot of points on a squad thats easily stopped by a single model getting into melee range of them is a bad idea, then that applies to just about every single ranged unit in the game that cannot fall back and shoot or isn't a Lord of skulls. So, obliterators, Havocs are all bad then?

In any case. your one single model in melee range will need to survive being hit by 20 noise marines in combat... Thats 60 attacks...

With strategems, the EC noise marines are rocking 120 shots of Damage 2... with a +1 to wound (VOTLW). That's a max 240 points of potential damage. You think that is somehow low? @_@ As a comparision, a squad of 3 obliterators shooting twice with max 3 dmg rolled on dmg both time will only do a max potential damage of 108 points of damage. Just how much damage must a unit put out before you consider the damage to be good?

It IS low and it dies to a stiff breeze. No I will not be taking Noise Marines seriously and I recommend you do the same. Also the point isn't that Noise Marines aren't going to fight back. The point is you're paying for the Sonic weapons, so nobody will care if they fight back.
Also Obliterators don't NEED that many resources poured into them and they can naturally get around. Noise Marines cannot. Enjoy your fiddly threat range!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Yoyoyo wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Also imagine wanting to spend that many points on a squad that's easily stopped by a single model getting into melee with them LOL.

Heroically intervene (easy with the 6" stratagem), do it with a unit that has the Daemon keyword, fight in the psychic phase on your turn with Hysterical Frenzy... this isn't that complicated is it?

I think the core problem is you literally have no problem-solving ability. Or maybe you just don't play any army concept that does anything but point-and-click rules abuse? Iron Hands are that way, don't let the door hit you on your way out.

Ah yes, pointing out the army didn't gain anything means I'm looking for point and click, and I should L2P. Go make the same argument in the Grey Knight Tactica. I'll wait.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Go make the same argument in the Grey Knight Tactica. I'll wait.

Nah. YOU go and make the same argument you're making here once their PA rules drop, if you really feel like getting kicked around there too.

I don't see you offering any actual tactical ideas or solutions, so why don't we end this particular conversation? It's beyond stale.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Also Obliterators don't NEED that many resources poured into them and they can naturally get around. Noise Marines cannot. Enjoy your fiddly threat range!

Oblits are deepstrikers and have a tiny footprint, they aren't remotely comparable. They're a point-and-click unit that exists to apply firepower. 20x Noise Marines at T5, 5+++ are going to be board control with Obsec and fill a compulsory troops slot. Their firepower isn't the only reason you'd consider fielding them.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Eldenfirefly wrote:
If spending a lot of points on a squad thats easily stopped by a single model getting into melee range of them is a bad idea, then that applies to just about every single ranged unit in the game that cannot fall back and shoot or isn't a Lord of skulls. So, obliterators, Havocs are all bad then?

In any case. your one single model in melee range will need to survive being hit by 20 noise marines in combat... Thats 60 attacks...

With strategems, the EC noise marines are rocking 120 shots of Damage 2... with a +1 to wound (VOTLW). That's a max 240 points of potential damage. You think that is somehow low? @_@ As a comparision, a squad of 3 obliterators shooting twice with max 3 dmg rolled on dmg both time will only do a max potential damage of 108 points of damage. Just how much damage must a unit put out before you consider the damage to be good?

It IS low and it dies to a stiff breeze. No I will not be taking Noise Marines seriously and I recommend you do the same. Also the point isn't that Noise Marines aren't going to fight back. The point is you're paying for the Sonic weapons, so nobody will care if they fight back.
Also Obliterators don't NEED that many resources poured into them and they can naturally get around. Noise Marines cannot. Enjoy your fiddly threat range!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Yoyoyo wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Also imagine wanting to spend that many points on a squad that's easily stopped by a single model getting into melee with them LOL.

Heroically intervene (easy with the 6" stratagem), do it with a unit that has the Daemon keyword, fight in the psychic phase on your turn with Hysterical Frenzy... this isn't that complicated is it?

I think the core problem is you literally have no problem-solving ability. Or maybe you just don't play any army concept that does anything but point-and-click rules abuse? Iron Hands are that way, don't let the door hit you on your way out.

Ah yes, pointing out the army didn't gain anything means I'm looking for point and click, and I should L2P. Go make the same argument in the Grey Knight Tactica. I'll wait.

I wonder why ALL your messages try to support the idea that everything in gak except Alpha Legion.
If you have some advice or original idea everyone here is glad to listening to you but post after post of useless whining is pointless, useless and simple compel the readers to waste their time.
Could you please write in POSITIVE form, explaining your gameplay and the paradigm that you use, what you deploy and which role it has within your list?

 small_gods wrote:
I'd also say that bezerkers are hard to use well, as you need to have a good understanding of the mele phase, piling in, heroic intervention etc.

There's a useful article here about theorycrafting and playing a Beserker list against a Tau gunline. I won't spoil it but they seem to be able to compete.


Unquestionbly, it's more complex to run a CC list. But it seems viable if you have a good grasp of the core concepts.

Yoyoyo wrote:

 small_gods wrote:
I'd also say that bezerkers are hard to use well, as you need to have a good understanding of the mele phase, piling in, heroic intervention etc.

There's a useful article here about theorycrafting and playing a Beserker list against a Tau gunline. I won't spoil it but they seem to be able to compete.

Spoiler:

https://www.goonhammer.com/hear-me-out-wings-world-eaters/

Overall, the list is all-in on melee. The Cultists sit back and hold objectives, while everything else charges forward. If I’m doing things right, the Berzerkers arrive around the same time as the warp talons and terminators, and they deal a monster blow on turn 2 that cripples the opponent and leaves them struggling to find a way out of combat. The only things I have to really worry about are lists that are super-heavy on units with FLY and getting blown off the table turn 1, but I’ve got the Rhinos and Benediction of Darkness for some protection, plus I can be conservative with my deployment since I’m not trying to get the whole army into combat on T1, just a unit or two.

Unquestionbly, it's more complex to run a CC list. But it seems viable if you have a good grasp of the core concepts.

Yeah it's a good article showing the possibilities with perhaps one of the factions that didn't get all the shiney toys in PA. I'm used to playing mele with bloodletter bombs and warptalons. But I sold off my Bezerkers to focus on getting fewer armies but with full rostas.

I think there's a potential list with world eaters possessed, Terminators and bezerkers on foot. You'd need to take a daemon detachment with some nurglings to mask out the mid board in deployment but then with a few CP spent on apocalyptic frenzy and kill maim burn you could be really in your opponents face turn 1 or 2. Saving 300 points in transports could buy you a lot of other threats.

I am toying with using a WE Dark Apostle for illusory supplication along with some WE CSM troops and zerkers in Rhinos. So, use the WE strategem to move up the Dark Apostle and the regular CSM on foot. Then turn 1, they move forward another 6 inches while the Rhinos move advance forward into the DA's bubble and pop smoke.

By my calculations, I should have a very decent frontage of 2 Rhinos with zerkers, 15 regular CSM and the dark apostle, all covered by the 5+ invul bubble. If the CSM can make it to midboard cover, its even better still. Now, they will have 2+ normal save and a 5++ invul save. Meanwhile, the Rhinos will be -1 to hit with a 5++ invul save.

Sounds like something that can stand up to some shooting. And the 2nd turn charge will of course, be devastating and glorious.

The reason I am using regular CSM as part of it is that my rationale goes like this: They are there to soak up bullets and prevent the opponent from targeting my DA (sort of using snipers). So, since they are there to be a bullet sponge, then there's no point I make them zerkers which cost more. I am quite ready to lose all 15 CSM from shooting.

Yet, in the event they are ignored, they are still in a position to wreck some damage on chaff. Because these are still WE CSM we are talking about. So, they pack a harder punch than normal CSM. So, any major problem with this line of thought? Any big holes in this strategy I didn't spot? : )

Eldenfirefly wrote:
I am toying with using a WE Dark Apostle for illusory supplication along with some WE CSM troops and zerkers in Rhinos. So, use the WE strategem to move up the Dark Apostle and the regular CSM on foot. Then turn 1, they move forward another 6 inches while the Rhinos move advance forward into the DA's bubble and pop smoke.

By my calculations, I should have a very decent frontage of 2 Rhinos with zerkers, 15 regular CSM and the dark apostle, all covered by the 5+ invul bubble. If the CSM can make it to midboard cover, its even better still. Now, they will have 2+ normal save and a 5++ invul save. Meanwhile, the Rhinos will be -1 to hit with a 5++ invul save.

Sounds like something that can stand up to some shooting. And the 2nd turn charge will of course, be devastating and glorious.

The reason I am using regular CSM as part of it is that my rationale goes like this: They are there to soak up bullets and prevent the opponent from targeting my DA (sort of using snipers). So, since they are there to be a bullet sponge, then there's no point I make them zerkers which cost more. I am quite ready to lose all 15 CSM from shooting.

Yet, in the event they are ignored, they are still in a position to wreck some damage on chaff. Because these are still WE CSM we are talking about. So, they pack a harder punch than normal CSM. So, any major problem with this line of thought? Any big holes in this strategy I didn't spot? : )

You may want to tinker with trying Cultists instead of CSM for your screen. Cheaper, more board control, benefit more from 5++, and low Ld isn’t an issue with a DA.

Yoyoyo wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Go make the same argument in the Grey Knight Tactica. I'll wait.

Nah. YOU go and make the same argument you're making here once their PA rules drop, if you really feel like getting kicked around there too.

I don't see you offering any actual tactical ideas or solutions, so why don't we end this particular conversation? It's beyond stale.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Also Obliterators don't NEED that many resources poured into them and they can naturally get around. Noise Marines cannot. Enjoy your fiddly threat range!

Oblits are deepstrikers and have a tiny footprint, they aren't remotely comparable. They're a point-and-click unit that exists to apply firepower. 20x Noise Marines at T5, 5+++ are going to be board control with Obsec and fill a compulsory troops slot. Their firepower isn't the only reason you'd consider fielding them.

The main difference is the rules didn't drop for Grey Knights yet. We HAVE all the rules for Legions. I can make the statements pretty safely, just as well as I can for Blood Angels. It isn't like they provided THAT many rules. Sure, more rules themselves is an improvement by itself, but the question is how much improvement was there? The answer is not a lot to actually matter for the Legions that actually needed it.
Also I already offered advice as necessary, and not bad advice either. So there ya go.

Also there you go with Schrodinger's Noise Marines. You have to apply all those benefits with a cost, and the cost is not worth it. Sad but true.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 brugner8 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Eldenfirefly wrote:
If spending a lot of points on a squad thats easily stopped by a single model getting into melee range of them is a bad idea, then that applies to just about every single ranged unit in the game that cannot fall back and shoot or isn't a Lord of skulls. So, obliterators, Havocs are all bad then?

In any case. your one single model in melee range will need to survive being hit by 20 noise marines in combat... Thats 60 attacks...

With strategems, the EC noise marines are rocking 120 shots of Damage 2... with a +1 to wound (VOTLW). That's a max 240 points of potential damage. You think that is somehow low? @_@ As a comparision, a squad of 3 obliterators shooting twice with max 3 dmg rolled on dmg both time will only do a max potential damage of 108 points of damage. Just how much damage must a unit put out before you consider the damage to be good?

It IS low and it dies to a stiff breeze. No I will not be taking Noise Marines seriously and I recommend you do the same. Also the point isn't that Noise Marines aren't going to fight back. The point is you're paying for the Sonic weapons, so nobody will care if they fight back.
Also Obliterators don't NEED that many resources poured into them and they can naturally get around. Noise Marines cannot. Enjoy your fiddly threat range!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Yoyoyo wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Also imagine wanting to spend that many points on a squad that's easily stopped by a single model getting into melee with them LOL.

Heroically intervene (easy with the 6" stratagem), do it with a unit that has the Daemon keyword, fight in the psychic phase on your turn with Hysterical Frenzy... this isn't that complicated is it?

I think the core problem is you literally have no problem-solving ability. Or maybe you just don't play any army concept that does anything but point-and-click rules abuse? Iron Hands are that way, don't let the door hit you on your way out.

Ah yes, pointing out the army didn't gain anything means I'm looking for point and click, and I should L2P. Go make the same argument in the Grey Knight Tactica. I'll wait.

I wonder why ALL your messages try to support the idea that everything in gak except Alpha Legion.
If you have some advice or original idea everyone here is glad to listening to you but post after post of useless whining is pointless, useless and simple compel the readers to waste their time.
Could you please write in POSITIVE form, explaining your gameplay and the paradigm that you use, what you deploy and which role it has within your list?

It's because Alpha Legion got all the stuff that matters. They get a second Warlord at the cost of a single CP, redeployment abilities, an actual Sniper (though how effective for the cost is easily up for debate), all on top of having the best Legion Trait itself. World Eaters got nothing to help with charges outside one Warlord Trait and still need to spend points on a Banner when it is available, Emperor's Children and Word Bearers still have the absolutely useless Legion Traits and have to pour an immense amount of resources to do things other armies can just easily do for half the cost, Night Lords rely on gimmicks outside Vox Scream, and of course who can forget Black Legion, where if you don't run DiscoLords and/or Abigail what's the point of running them?

Eldenfirefly wrote:
Yet, in the event they are ignored, they are still in a position to wreck some damage on chaff. Because these are still WE CSM we are talking about. So, they pack a harder punch than normal CSM. So, any major problem with this line of thought? Any big holes in this strategy I didn't spot? : )

I think the strategic concept is fine, the major question is how you're going to build the rest of your army. I don't think adding some Cultists is a bad idea, their big footprint is a definite positive. Actually winning depends on mission scoring but you do have an advantage if you back the enemy into a corner and keep them there. If you can manage that, the game is going to depend on you crippling their offense so they can't recover, so your T2 will have to be a bloodbath. Thematic right?

Tempted to try a Master of Executions with Elixir of Slaanesh - 7 attacks on the charge hitting on 2s, wounding most things on 2s feels like a pretty solid investment for only 60 points.

So, anyone tried an EC warp talon bomb yet? 15 Warp Talons with Host Raptorial, +1A from the combat drugs stratagem and the guaranteed charge from Honour the Prince. Costs 3-4 CP (depending on whether you need Tzee- err, Slaanesh to trun one of your dice to a 6) but 61A on the charge with Lightning Claws will scrap anything, even T8+ with Veterans of the Long War (although that could bring the total cost up to a max of 5 CP... ouch).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Is Faith and Fury worth getting?

Unless you play Black Legion exclusively, very much yes.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

weaver9 wrote:
Speaking of PA rules...

Anyone have an opinion on Slaanesh talons (rerolling wounds +d6 attacks) vs Tzeentch sword (negating invul) on a daemon prince?

At first I thought negating invuln was amazing for matchups like custodes and sisters.... but starting to think that more attacks and more saves (due to rr wounds) will net you better results.

The problem with the Slaanesh talons on a Daemon Prince is that you lose the base +3A from having 2 sets of talons, so they could actually give you LESS attacks total (albeit those attacks can reroll wound rolls) AND have the potential to inflict a MW on a 1 and prevent you from fighting. I'd 100% go for the Tzeentch sword if you want a high-risk high-reward DP and keep the Slaanesh claws for a smashlord.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Yoyoyo wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Go make the same argument in the Grey Knight Tactica. I'll wait.

Nah. YOU go and make the same argument you're making here once their PA rules drop, if you really feel like getting kicked around there too.

I don't see you offering any actual tactical ideas or solutions, so why don't we end this particular conversation? It's beyond stale.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Also Obliterators don't NEED that many resources poured into them and they can naturally get around. Noise Marines cannot. Enjoy your fiddly threat range!

Oblits are deepstrikers and have a tiny footprint, they aren't remotely comparable. They're a point-and-click unit that exists to apply firepower. 20x Noise Marines at T5, 5+++ are going to be board control with Obsec and fill a compulsory troops slot. Their firepower isn't the only reason you'd consider fielding them.

The main difference is the rules didn't drop for Grey Knights yet. We HAVE all the rules for Legions. I can make the statements pretty safely, just as well as I can for Blood Angels. It isn't like they provided THAT many rules. Sure, more rules themselves is an improvement by itself, but the question is how much improvement was there? The answer is not a lot to actually matter for the Legions that actually needed it.
Also I already offered advice as necessary, and not bad advice either. So there ya go.

Also there you go with Schrodinger's Noise Marines. You have to apply all those benefits with a cost, and the cost is not worth it. Sad but true.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 brugner8 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Eldenfirefly wrote:
If spending a lot of points on a squad thats easily stopped by a single model getting into melee range of them is a bad idea, then that applies to just about every single ranged unit in the game that cannot fall back and shoot or isn't a Lord of skulls. So, obliterators, Havocs are all bad then?

In any case. your one single model in melee range will need to survive being hit by 20 noise marines in combat... Thats 60 attacks...

With strategems, the EC noise marines are rocking 120 shots of Damage 2... with a +1 to wound (VOTLW). That's a max 240 points of potential damage. You think that is somehow low? @_@ As a comparision, a squad of 3 obliterators shooting twice with max 3 dmg rolled on dmg both time will only do a max potential damage of 108 points of damage. Just how much damage must a unit put out before you consider the damage to be good?

It IS low and it dies to a stiff breeze. No I will not be taking Noise Marines seriously and I recommend you do the same. Also the point isn't that Noise Marines aren't going to fight back. The point is you're paying for the Sonic weapons, so nobody will care if they fight back.
Also Obliterators don't NEED that many resources poured into them and they can naturally get around. Noise Marines cannot. Enjoy your fiddly threat range!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Yoyoyo wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Also imagine wanting to spend that many points on a squad that's easily stopped by a single model getting into melee with them LOL.

Heroically intervene (easy with the 6" stratagem), do it with a unit that has the Daemon keyword, fight in the psychic phase on your turn with Hysterical Frenzy... this isn't that complicated is it?

I think the core problem is you literally have no problem-solving ability. Or maybe you just don't play any army concept that does anything but point-and-click rules abuse? Iron Hands are that way, don't let the door hit you on your way out.

Ah yes, pointing out the army didn't gain anything means I'm looking for point and click, and I should L2P. Go make the same argument in the Grey Knight Tactica. I'll wait.

I wonder why ALL your messages try to support the idea that everything in gak except Alpha Legion.
If you have some advice or original idea everyone here is glad to listening to you but post after post of useless whining is pointless, useless and simple compel the readers to waste their time.
Could you please write in POSITIVE form, explaining your gameplay and the paradigm that you use, what you deploy and which role it has within your list?

It's because Alpha Legion got all the stuff that matters. They get a second Warlord at the cost of a single CP, redeployment abilities, an actual Sniper (though how effective for the cost is easily up for debate), all on top of having the best Legion Trait itself. World Eaters got nothing to help with charges outside one Warlord Trait and still need to spend points on a Banner when it is available, Emperor's Children and Word Bearers still have the absolutely useless Legion Traits and have to pour an immense amount of resources to do things other armies can just easily do for half the cost, Night Lords rely on gimmicks outside Vox Scream, and of course who can forget Black Legion, where if you don't run DiscoLords and/or Abigail what's the point of running them?

. CSM are in a position where you have to accept that you'll have to spend of bunch of CP and other resources to make them work, I think you (among a lot of other people) are overrating the Alpha legion trait. -1 to hit at range was extremely good when 8th edition was all about long range shooting and hordes. Now that we are in the space marine meta the value of this -1 to hit is a lot less, since space marines have good BS at default, and do a lot of damage closer than 12 inches. It's still a good trait (better than most of the other garbage traits), but not the all star ability it was pre-marines.

The big problem I have with alpha legion as a whole is that they offer know way to super power a single unit like other legions. I keep seeing people try to use Obliterators with Alpha legion, but based on what I've predicted, seen, and tested; Iron warriors are far superior to alpha legion when running them. TJ Lanigan has had some success running possessed under alpha legion, but that type of point denial list is really only good when used correctly (which is hard) and in ITC missions. Outside of these units there doesn't really exist any one model that makes me excited to go Alpha legion.

This isn't to say Alpha legion as whole are bad, but as CSM you have to go all in with one type of strategy. Otherwise we are simply worse marines, and you don't win many competitive games by being worse marines.

Hmm, Salt Donkey, that's a very interesting take. I do sort of agree. SM has many ways to do accurate shooting. So that -1 is overblown. AL did get some interesting strategems though. I do agree with you.

So if I want to run possessed, do I have to build the whole list around them? Are the resources expended on characters, WL traits, HQ’s, stratagems and points as well as possible daemon HQ support buffs worth what you get out of them? Does Daemonic summoning provide reliable enough access to Daemonic HQ’s to buff the possessed? Are they at least fun to push across the board now?

macluvin wrote:
So if I want to run possessed, do I have to build the whole list around them? Are the resources expended on characters, WL traits, HQ’s, stratagems and points as well as possible daemon HQ support buffs worth what you get out of them? Does Daemonic summoning provide reliable enough access to Daemonic HQ’s to buff the possessed? Are they at least fun to push across the board now?

You can get a T1 charge very easily as emperor's children. Combat Elixers and warp time along with the honor the prince is 24 +D6.

 Dr.Duck wrote:

macluvin wrote:
So if I want to run possessed, do I have to build the whole list around them? Are the resources expended on characters, WL traits, HQ’s, stratagems and points as well as possible daemon HQ support buffs worth what you get out of them? Does Daemonic summoning provide reliable enough access to Daemonic HQ’s to buff the possessed? Are they at least fun to push across the board now?

You can get a T1 charge very easily as emperor's children. Combat Elixers and warp time along with the honor the prince is 24 +D6.

I can see how something like that would absolutely wreck MEQ’s in combat. I guess threat saturation would be the strategy to get the possessed to combat and keep them alive. What are you using for that end? Auto cannon havocs? (Sonic) Helbrutes? Defilers? Would you back them up with more possessed squads? What are we doing to make these work? Shooting a single squad of possessed off the table in a single round of shooting is hardly a major commitment of firepower.

. CSM are in a position where you have to accept that you'll have to spend of bunch of CP and other resources to make them work, I think you (among a lot of other people) are overrating the Alpha legion trait. -1 to hit at range was extremely good when 8th edition was all about long range shooting and hordes. Now that we are in the space marine meta the value of this -1 to hit is a lot less, since space marines have good BS at default, and do a lot of damage closer than 12 inches. It's still a good trait (better than most of the other garbage traits), but not the all star ability it was pre-marines.

The big problem I have with alpha legion as a whole is that they offer know way to super power a single unit like other legions. I keep seeing people try to use Obliterators with Alpha legion, but based on what I've predicted, seen, and tested; Iron warriors are far superior to alpha legion when running them. TJ Lanigan has had some success running possessed under alpha legion, but that type of point denial list is really only good when used correctly (which is hard) and in ITC missions. Outside of these units there doesn't really exist any one model that makes me excited to go Alpha legion.

This isn't to say Alpha legion as whole are bad, but as CSM you have to go all in with one type of strategy. Otherwise we are simply worse marines, and you don't win many competitive games by being worse marines.

That has worked exactly not, ever, in the whole history of this dex this design has hindered CSM.

Infact when we are part of a tournament placing, then it is precicsely via obliterators , terminators with combiplas and in form of slaanesh and alpha legion, everything else literally might aswell didn't exist comptetively sofar, beyond the horde of cultists, but with the ammount of marines arround that build there is also bound to get toasted.


Further if you really want to go all in on that one supposed stratagey, AL still has the best possible combinations for that, what with the ammount of movement and deployment shenanigans you can pull.

Which is more powerfull if done correctly then 90% of this codex and supplement as a whole.But actually dependant on skill and not on gotcha combos as the whole dex is built around. ( also you still can build the normal gotcha combo with termites and obliterators in to the list.)

but personally i am just sick of the design of it atm.
infact it has gotten so bad imo, that you literally don't get anything worth it's points in the whole dex imo and only get to make a unit overachieve and that 's it.