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 p5freak wrote:
There is no reason to run noctilith crown, helbrutes, preds when there are hellforged contemptor dreads.

the noctilith at 80 is ok if you intend to run an R&H gunline. because it doubles your basic saves and gives your vehicles an ++ save, which is decent. it also acts as a psy denial tool, but frankly why bother with that, even in R&H when you can just use a Rouge psyker coven with the same effect?

Eldenfirefly wrote:


Would just like to chime in that Norlitith crown is now just 80 points. And that expanding Aura giving all your hellbrutes and predators a 5++ is nothing to sniff at for just 80 points. On a related note to Abaddon though. How many ever tried a list where the strategy is the move Abaddon up to the midfield? The lascannon spam list basically has him staying stationary. Anyone had any success in a list where his goal is to move up to mid field so that he can bring his awesome combat abilities to bear to hold down the mid board ?

I had some success surrounding him with a max unit of bikes, can advance Abaddon and still shoot his talon at 3+ and your bikes can keep up without advancing and put out 36 bolter shots at 36" with full rerolls plus 3 plasma guns. Often would drop veterans on them to absolutely ruin screens and the plasma shots are just bonus to pump into a heavier target. Shoot twice with endless cacophony turn one before your oblits can drop in midtable near Abaddon and what's left of your bikes can whizz of to harass.
Contemptor dreads bringing up the rear can stay in his aura too. 3+with full rerolls is better than their regular 2+. Quite like a vindicator rolling up with them. Bit of a bullet sponge and can be nasty if allowed to reach the centre alongside Ab.

Are havocs ideal though? they seem like a liability no longer having ablative wounds

 Dr.Duck wrote:
Are havocs ideal though? they seem like a liability no longer having ablative wounds

Depends on the havoc.

AL / IW ones are the ost durable, thanks to a certain stratagem interaction with a certain HQ and trait.

But regular havocs aren't that bad aswell, especially nowadays that you literally can hide outside of LOS and have T5 which is good enough for most LoS ignoring fire to be migitated somewhat.

I think it depends on the terrain you play with as well, in itc they are great because you're guaranteed to be able to find some cover.

We always play with the itc terrain rules and a decent ammoint of terrain even if we're playing missions from chapter approved etc as gunlines are too tough to counter without any decent terrain and it's then a case of who goes first and rolls best wins.

 Dr.Duck wrote:
Are havocs ideal though? they seem like a liability no longer having ablative wounds

I'm personally on the fence about havocs. On one hand I can guarantee I get value out of them ( Devestation Battery) but that's a 2 cp sync

Whereas oblits are also "safe" via deepstrike.

weaver9 wrote:

 Dr.Duck wrote:
Are havocs ideal though? they seem like a liability no longer having ablative wounds

I'm personally on the fence about havocs. On one hand I can guarantee I get value out of them ( Devestation Battery) but that's a 2 cp sync

Whereas oblits are also "safe" via deepstrike.

I run both, sometimes in a list sometimes not, and generally not with devastation battery. granted i run AC and AC ML but still. The squads absolutely shred light vehicles and or primaris.

 Dr.Duck wrote:
Are havocs ideal though? they seem like a liability no longer having ablative wounds

Put them in a Rhino (disembark first turn, then use the Rhino to drive up the field and try to pull the opponents shooty stuff into CC. And even if the Rhino gets destroyed, that's still a lot of ablative wounds AND lascannons that didn't shoot your Discolords and Chaos Knights) or as has been said, use Devastation Battery. One salvo with Endless Cacophony (and whatever other stratagems you want to use on them) is usually enough to get their points back, any turns they survive afterwards are a bonus.

All this advice about havocs is really helpful, as I'm running them in my mixed Iron Warriors/World Eaters/Khorne daemons army. I'm only sad that they are strictly limited to only five models per unit.

For this army, I was thinking of running a Lord Discordant, Venocrawler, and Warpsmith with my World Eaters. How could I make this work?

 ArcaneHorror wrote:
All this advice about havocs is really helpful, as I'm running them in my mixed Iron Warriors/World Eaters/Khorne daemons army. I'm only sad that they are strictly limited to only five models per unit.

For this army, I was thinking of running a Lord Discordant, Venocrawler, and Warpsmith with my World Eaters. How could I make this work?

I would advise dropping the warpsmith honestly. He won't keep up to heal your venomcrawler or disco.

Otherwise do two squads of las havocs, Daemon engines for your IW detachment.

World Eaters- take as many bezerkers in transports as possible plus a group of red butcher terminators.

So im looking through alot of the stratagems and warlord traits for a battalion consisting of atleast 2 disco lords and some more VenomCrawlers, and I cant seem to find anything that actualy benefits these units all that much. Was origionally going with Iron warriors for Dour Duty but with a MoP and cursed earth all the engines already have a 4++. Any1 have any imput on picking a legion? Else I guess its just Alpha Legion to help protect the DiscoLords a smidge.....

 Dr.Duck wrote:
So im looking through alot of the stratagems and warlord traits for a battalion consisting of atleast 2 disco lords and some more VenomCrawlers, and I cant seem to find anything that actualy benefits these units all that much. Was origionally going with Iron warriors for Dour Duty but with a MoP and cursed earth all the engines already have a 4++. Any1 have any imput on picking a legion? Else I guess its just Alpha Legion to help protect the DiscoLords a smidge.....

Soulforged Pack is what benefits those units. The Warlord trait for the Disco Lord makes everyone faster.

 Dr.Duck wrote:
So im looking through alot of the stratagems and warlord traits for a battalion consisting of atleast 2 disco lords and some more VenomCrawlers, and I cant seem to find anything that actualy benefits these units all that much. Was origionally going with Iron warriors for Dour Duty but with a MoP and cursed earth all the engines already have a 4++. Any1 have any imput on picking a legion? Else I guess its just Alpha Legion to help protect the DiscoLords a smidge.....

Majority of time you want to run a discolord with flawless host if possible the warlord trait is super strong with daemonforged as is the aura and legion trait.

 Dr.Duck wrote:
So im looking through alot of the stratagems and warlord traits for a battalion consisting of atleast 2 disco lords and some more VenomCrawlers, and I cant seem to find anything that actualy benefits these units all that much. Was origionally going with Iron warriors for Dour Duty but with a MoP and cursed earth all the engines already have a 4++. Any1 have any imput on picking a legion? Else I guess its just Alpha Legion to help protect the DiscoLords a smidge.....

Flawless host is the way to go, it drives disco lord's offensive power to a ludicrous degree, to a point where it basically one-shots anything Imperium that's not a super heavy

weaver9 wrote:

 ArcaneHorror wrote:
All this advice about havocs is really helpful, as I'm running them in my mixed Iron Warriors/World Eaters/Khorne daemons army. I'm only sad that they are strictly limited to only five models per unit.

For this army, I was thinking of running a Lord Discordant, Venocrawler, and Warpsmith with my World Eaters. How could I make this work?

I would advise dropping the warpsmith honestly. He won't keep up to heal your venomcrawler or disco.

Otherwise do two squads of las havocs, Daemon engines for your IW detachment.

World Eaters- take as many bezerkers in transports as possible plus a group of red butcher terminators.

Ok, thanks, I'll probably get some more havocs soon.

On another note, I was thinking of making a MoP model a Khornate Dark Apostle, with the Skullreaver icon replacing the goat head for the crozius. Could this double as both the crozius and the icon of wrath?

 Continuity wrote:

 Dr.Duck wrote:
So im looking through alot of the stratagems and warlord traits for a battalion consisting of atleast 2 disco lords and some more VenomCrawlers, and I cant seem to find anything that actualy benefits these units all that much. Was origionally going with Iron warriors for Dour Duty but with a MoP and cursed earth all the engines already have a 4++. Any1 have any imput on picking a legion? Else I guess its just Alpha Legion to help protect the DiscoLords a smidge.....

Flawless host is the way to go, it drives disco lord's offensive power to a ludicrous degree, to a point where it basically one-shots anything Imperium that's not a super heavy

What good is that if your 1 million melee attacks disco lord doesnt get into close combat ? If you make him AL he can get -4 to hit (clandestine, miasma of pestilence, benediction of darkness and AL legion trait), meaning he is pretty much impossible to kill with ranged weapons. Also, with AL the MoP can get warplord with we are alpharius, rerolling 1s when casting a psychic power, making it more likely to cast cursed earth.

 p5freak wrote:

 Continuity wrote:

 Dr.Duck wrote:
So im looking through alot of the stratagems and warlord traits for a battalion consisting of atleast 2 disco lords and some more VenomCrawlers, and I cant seem to find anything that actualy benefits these units all that much. Was origionally going with Iron warriors for Dour Duty but with a MoP and cursed earth all the engines already have a 4++. Any1 have any imput on picking a legion? Else I guess its just Alpha Legion to help protect the DiscoLords a smidge.....

Flawless host is the way to go, it drives disco lord's offensive power to a ludicrous degree, to a point where it basically one-shots anything Imperium that's not a super heavy

What good is that if your 1 million melee attacks disco lord doesn't get into close combat ? If you make him AL he can get -4 to hit (clandestine, miasma of pestilence, benediction of darkness and AL legion trait), meaning he is pretty much impossible to kill with ranged weapons. Also, with AL the MoP can get warplord with we are alpharius, rerolling 1s when casting a psychic power, making it more likely to cast cursed earth.

To an extent I can appreciate the contrarian opinion but can you post a sample list where this works? I'm just curious of the opportunity cost of casting miasma, clandestine etc. on a 160 pt disco lord. Somehow also keeping the disco lord consciously over 12 inches away (on your opponents turn) and still being able to charge it (reliably) into combat against good targets. I also question the ability to reliably stack all these buffs, keeping the disco lord near an apostle etc, where the apostle I think moves 6? and the discolord 14 typically. I think a lot of people are still wrapping their heads around the new traits available in the latest chaos release (alpha strats etc.) so I guess I could see this working but I'm just curious what your list looks like with this advice? Do you have some battle reports or tournament results to share?

This will likely come off as potentially rude, and I don't really mean it that way, but the alpha legion advice shared has the flavor (at face value) of a typical example of "if we stack every buff in the army perfectly the numbers are ridiculous!" - of course this is an exaggeration in this case but hopefully elucidates the point. Where most of the time this never happens in a game against a savy opponent becuase they 1) Know what you can do and will stretch you or 2) The units that are needed to pull it off don't operate the same way (see movement and the need for discolord to be in melee to be effective), or 3) the opportunity cost is poor/not sustainable etc. That said, this could be similar to the case of where everyone thought DG Termis were hot garbage and then they quickly became a meta staple after someone won BAO with a stack...

Just to share some data the flawless host perspective comes from a known ITC tournament grade track record - really its just about redundancy and target saturation. If they kill 1, 2 or even all 3 discolords before they get into melee its certainly not ideal but means hopefully the knights etc. aren't bracketed. This is a more holistic look at how the discolords function in an overall list. Its phased out now s/p SM dominating the meta but it was seen in early 2019, I just picked one that came up first. For example is the third place list:
https://www.40kstats.com/crucible8

Is there any place on the internet where all our relics are consolidated? I'm honestly a little bit stumped atm when I'm trying to find out all the options we have for a relic chain axe.

orkswubwub wrote:

To an extent I can appreciate the contrarian opinion but can you post a sample list where this works? I'm just curious of the opportunity cost of casting miasma, clandestine etc. on a 160 pt disco lord. Somehow also keeping the disco lord consciously over 12 inches away (on your opponents turn) and still being able to charge it (reliably) into combat against good targets. I also question the ability to reliably stack all these buffs, keeping the disco lord near an apostle etc, where the apostle I think moves 6? and the discolord 14 typically. I think a lot of people are still wrapping their heads around the new traits available in the latest chaos release (alpha strats etc.) so I guess I could see this working but I'm just curious what your list looks like with this advice? Do you have some battle reports or tournament results to share?

Of course its not possible to maintain the -4 to hit all the time. I didnt say that. Benediction of darkness only works against ranged weapons, and the AL legion trait as well, and only for 12"+. Its a way to keep the lord alive T1, until he gets into melee.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Gidun wrote:
Is there any place on the internet where all our relics are consolidated? I'm honestly a little bit stumped atm when I'm trying to find out all the options we have for a relic chain axe.

https://1d4chan.org/wiki/Warhammer_40,000/Tactics/Chaos_Space_Marines(8E)

orkswubwub wrote:

 p5freak wrote:

 Continuity wrote:

 Dr.Duck wrote:
So im looking through alot of the stratagems and warlord traits for a battalion consisting of atleast 2 disco lords and some more VenomCrawlers, and I cant seem to find anything that actualy benefits these units all that much. Was origionally going with Iron warriors for Dour Duty but with a MoP and cursed earth all the engines already have a 4++. Any1 have any imput on picking a legion? Else I guess its just Alpha Legion to help protect the DiscoLords a smidge.....

Flawless host is the way to go, it drives disco lord's offensive power to a ludicrous degree, to a point where it basically one-shots anything Imperium that's not a super heavy

What good is that if your 1 million melee attacks disco lord doesn't get into close combat ? If you make him AL he can get -4 to hit (clandestine, miasma of pestilence, benediction of darkness and AL legion trait), meaning he is pretty much impossible to kill with ranged weapons. Also, with AL the MoP can get warplord with we are alpharius, rerolling 1s when casting a psychic power, making it more likely to cast cursed earth.

To an extent I can appreciate the contrarian opinion but can you post a sample list where this works? I'm just curious of the opportunity cost of casting miasma, clandestine etc. on a 160 pt disco lord. Somehow also keeping the disco lord consciously over 12 inches away (on your opponents turn) and still being able to charge it (reliably) into combat against good targets. I also question the ability to reliably stack all these buffs, keeping the disco lord near an apostle etc, where the apostle I think moves 6? and the discolord 14 typically. I think a lot of people are still wrapping their heads around the new traits available in the latest chaos release (alpha strats etc.) so I guess I could see this working but I'm just curious what your list looks like with this advice? Do you have some battle reports or tournament results to share?

This will likely come off as potentially rude, and I don't really mean it that way, but the alpha legion advice shared has the flavor (at face value) of a typical example of "if we stack every buff in the army perfectly the numbers are ridiculous!" - of course this is an exaggeration in this case but hopefully elucidates the point. Where most of the time this never happens in a game against a savy opponent becuase they 1) Know what you can do and will stretch you or 2) The units that are needed to pull it off don't operate the same way (see movement and the need for discolord to be in melee to be effective), or 3) the opportunity cost is poor/not sustainable etc. That said, this could be similar to the case of where everyone thought DG Termis were hot garbage and then they quickly became a meta staple after someone won BAO with a stack...

Just to share some data the flawless host perspective comes from a known ITC tournament grade track record - really its just about redundancy and target saturation. If they kill 1, 2 or even all 3 discolords before they get into melee its certainly not ideal but means hopefully the knights etc. aren't bracketed. This is a more holistic look at how the discolords function in an overall list. Its phased out now s/p SM dominating the meta but it was seen in early 2019, I just picked one that came up first. For example is the third place list:
https://www.40kstats.com/crucible8

Target saturation especially the list you present was prior space Marin meta bust. And because I don't want to get flamed about lists I love just mention that the diiscolod with -4 is followed not from knights butt from a bigger blob of possessed ,hq that all go as a big blob or disco served as frontal unkiillable unit to use conceal . After round 1 usually dies but all buffs go to possessed and then to hq. Comparing a flawless host using disco for threat saturation in a knight list is not the same as a frontal unit disco you don't want to charge and should not charge early cause he is there so you protect your possesed .
Disco Lord in current metta are not as good as they where because their prior good damage with flawless dos not matter since their 2+ armor is no more enough to survive vs Marine lists etc. And that's only to start about current lists .

@Yoda79 so… your Disco Lord dances a Matrix jig in front of Possessed and some heroes, demanding the enemy unit shoots at himself instead of them? I like it. Quite a few moving parts, but a very nice self-contained Supreme Command or Battalion.

I’m guessing this is part of a Slaan or Nurgle DP list, so these units can advance & charge? I imagine it’s a trio of Slaanesh heroes provided auras, stabbing, and spells?

I can see it being well matched with some Word Bearers or Night Lords heroes to prevent fall back.

The disco lord who is -4 to hit allows you to play conceal on the unit of possessed, so they cant be targeted, unless they are the closest visible unit. The unit of possessed protect the characters from getting shot, except for snipers. Here is a video from d6evolution explaining it : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mxu0YX_i5Bo

Alpha legion is definitely the way to go if you're running one lord discordant. If you're running 3 flawless host is worth using. I've seen it work really well with 3 purge Daredeos and a lot of plaguebearers.

That -4 possessed bomb is single-handedly making a lot of competitive players abandon Tau as a faction, apparently, according to a podcast I was listening to (sorry, can't remember which one).

How good are the insidium and cranium malevolus relics? I was thinking of putting insidium on my apostle and the cranium on someone/thing else.

 grouchoben wrote:
That -4 possessed bomb is single-handedly making a lot of competitive players abandon Tau as a faction, apparently, according to a podcast I was listening to (sorry, can't remember which one).

Here's a good breakdown of why this build is single-handidly wiping Tau from the meta, by Vontysk over on r/competitive40k:

Tau is absolutely hard hard countered by the possessed bomb. Not "difficult to get past" or "tough unless you get some good dice rolls", but absolutely, unquestionably, pack up your army and go home, hard countered.

-4 to hit character out at front: Tau physically can't get enough markerlights on target, meaning the only things that can shoot at the character are Commanders, of which you can only have 3. Plus unlike pretty much all other armies Tau have no +1 to hit strategies - they have to rely on markerlights, but that only works if you can get 5 of them to hit (not that Tau only has max 4 BS2+ (i.e. hitting on 6s) markerlight sources).

Untargetable possessed behind that, meaning you can't whittle them down before they get close.

You have to rely on FTGG since it's the only chance you get to shoot. That means you need to castle up.

Once the possessed are in combat, they can stop you falling back and thereby invalidate Fly - which is Tau's only answer to combat.

Tau doesn't have anything to counterattack and free trapped units. Unlike other gunlines (Marines, AdMech), which have at least some solid melee options, Tau have...Kroot? Once the possessed touch a unit in the castle (which you can't possibly stop) it's GG.

Insidium on an Apostle is essentially protection against snipers, with access to the Daemon keyword for healing. It's more relevant on a combat HQ.

Malevolus might be good situationally against nearby flyers.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ninja'd! Nice post Groucho

 lindsay40k wrote:
@Yoda79 so… your Disco Lord dances a Matrix jig in front of Possessed and some heroes, demanding the enemy unit shoots at himself instead of them? I like it. Quite a few moving parts, but a very nice self-contained Supreme Command or Battalion.

I’m guessing this is part of a Slaan or Nurgle DP list, so these units can advance & charge? I imagine it’s a trio of Slaanesh heroes provided auras, stabbing, and spells?

I can see it being well matched with some Word Bearers or Night Lords heroes to prevent fall back.

D6evolution as posted has a detailed video about it.

What i wanted to explain a bit was the difference of playing flawless host and -4 disco. Since i was sure you could find details for both i just wanted to show the difference in play style on the same unit( i used 2x disco flawed-knihgt-morty). One list was played extensively Summer wise period and the other is one we ll see in LVO surely.
The discolord in the flawless have a suicidal role. they are in need to go fast charge get warptime on them to go 100% first turn inside enemy lines and you better have something like knights coming after them . Even so In the marine meta this list is going to fail badly. The easy 2+ armor of the discolord atm vs marines is 0 defence. So the whole point of getting them inside enemy lines to spread fear and multishots is no more. The discolords are now well known as many lists played them and everyone knows that you do not fear them anymore. Why cause flaw discos cant pass a simple screen. YOU get a screen yo uobliterate it and thats it you stay in front of enemy fire and in the current meta you die. you better of with any other trick from crystals to tsons scout moves etc etc etc than having a disco carnifex. they dont deliver what they used to. Simply put they dont have fly and most players know the plan by now.

Same unit in the possed list instead of 3 discolords you take 1 discolord. You take the discolord because its a) char slot and can fit in a supreme command that usually has AL 3xhq and possesed. B) the size of the model harder to hide and its value ofc in taking all the buffs turn 1-2 then give them all to your bomb..
YOU do not have the discolord to rush in front. Instead is serving the opposite role. As mentioned Tau delete lists cause of this disco. He is to remain in frontal position with all buffs on him -4 to hit him and conceal possesed. You dont rush him you dont charge him you dont want him be super killer. ITs part of a plan with nurglins to cover your possesed bomb .Now if your Pbomb makes it close then ofc he can go and he can still play nicely with his good att -1 to enemy veh etc. But it its not the discolord warlord that will dis out 30 attacks with flawless warlord trait and relic etc.
If you want my advice do not invest in a triple discolord in anything in the current meta. Using 160 point in your list is one thing wasting 3x160+ is a big issue.

Don't Tau have the seeker missiles hitting on unmodified 2+ after 2 markerlights?

The "Hard countered T'au" maybe means that the 50 shield drone list cannot beat the possessed. That's normal rock paper scissors. If you spend 600+ points on pure defense against shooting and I play an army that doesn't shoot, this means you are on a disadvantage from the get go.

The possessed bomb makes the netlist of the T'au invalid, just as the triple TFC + tremor shells made plaguebearer lists invalid. It's more a problem because T'au don't have any other list option rather than the possessed being problematic by themselves.

topaxygouroun i wrote:
Don't Tau have the seeker missiles hitting on unmodified 2+ after 2 markerlights?

The "Hard countered T'au" maybe means that the 50 shield drone list cannot beat the possessed. That's normal rock paper scissors. If you spend 600+ points on pure defense against shooting and I play an army that doesn't shoot, this means you are on a disadvantage from the get go.

The possessed bomb makes the netlist of the T'au invalid, just as the triple TFC + tremor shells made plaguebearer lists invalid. It's more a problem because T'au don't have any other list option rather than the possessed being problematic by themselves.

counterpoint, 2 marker missiles, on a -4 discolord, is about how likely?