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 Eihnlazer wrote:
Just curious, has anyone tried running the heavy plasma Hellblasters in Ironhands competitively yet?

Ignoring the penalty to move and shoot and +1 damage seem pretty nice on that squad.

Mmm, I’d be inclined to convert to Lorgarian polytheism and field them as Obliterators

You guys want to talk about troops?

Let's say you had to field a 10-strong unit of CSM. What are your favorite loadouts, stratagem/HQ support and tactics to make them impactful?

Yoyoyo wrote:
You guys want to talk about troops?

Let's say you had to field a 10-strong unit of CSM. What are your favorite loadouts, stratagem/HQ support and tactics to make them impactful?

Chainaxe and combi bolter on the champion, boltgun marines as ablative wounds, two marines have LC as anti armor, or RCC as anti infantry. They usually are slaneesh, just in case i want to use EC. A chaos lord nearby for reroll 1s to hit, and a sorcerer with prescience/warptime. And of course VOTLW.

 p5freak wrote:

Yoyoyo wrote:
You guys want to talk about troops?

Let's say you had to field a 10-strong unit of CSM. What are your favorite loadouts, stratagem/HQ support and tactics to make them impactful?

Chainaxe and combi bolter on the champion, boltgun marines as ablative wounds, two marines have LC as anti armor, or RCC as anti infantry. They usually are slaneesh, just in case i want to use EC. A chaos lord nearby for reroll 1s to hit, and a sorcerer with prescience/warptime. And of course VOTLW.

Edit:NVM, can't read, didn't realize csm squads can take 2 heavy weapons if they have 10

To answer his question myself, slaneesh AL, Combiplas/plas if I need them to pull weight, stock if I plan on them being more objective grabbers. Idk if I'd kit out a full 10 man squad given how morale works in this game. Opponent kills 7-8 guys and your ablative wounds actually work against you, not for you. Much better off with two squads of 5 unless you specifically run Red Corsairs and can Tide of Traitors a squad.

I hate to say it, but I see no good reason to run a 10 man squad over two 5 man squads when they cost the same, the two small squads can take more special weapons, and are more flexible and resistant to morale. Sure, strats and abilities are more effective on big squads, but what strat would you possibly spend on a marine squad that wouldn't be better spent on havocs, warp talons, terminators, possessed, chosen, or obliterators? The one exception being something like Renescant infiltration to snag objectives, and even there any unit could do that job. My squads take slaneesh because it's free and I can double tap in an emergency, but if I'm boosting a 5 man csm squad things have gone tits up and I'm grasping at straws, those strats have much higher priority elsewhere.

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
What strat would you possibly spend on a marine squad that wouldn't be better spent on havocs, warp talons, terminators, possessed, chosen, or obliterators?

You're probably looking for persistent effects as CSM aren't a burst damage unit.

Something like HQ upgrades, extra Relics (ie. -2" to charge), or recycling Cultists to keep up pressure. Spoiler abilities, like the 6" Heroic Intervention, the 6" Consolidate or just counter-offensive with a souped up Powerfist. Or basic but game-winning stuff -- Prepared Positions on T1, command re-rolls to make key charges with Obsec, D3 MW with a basic bolt pistol to score Warlord.

 MrMoustaffa wrote:

 p5freak wrote:

Yoyoyo wrote:
You guys want to talk about troops?

Let's say you had to field a 10-strong unit of CSM. What are your favorite loadouts, stratagem/HQ support and tactics to make them impactful?

Chainaxe and combi bolter on the champion, boltgun marines as ablative wounds, two marines have LC as anti armor, or RCC as anti infantry. They usually are slaneesh, just in case i want to use EC. A chaos lord nearby for reroll 1s to hit, and a sorcerer with prescience/warptime. And of course VOTLW.

Edit:NVM, can't read, didn't realize csm squads can take 2 heavy weapons if they have 10

To answer his question myself, slaneesh AL, Combiplas/plas if I need them to pull weight, stock if I plan on them being more objective grabbers. Idk if I'd kit out a full 10 man squad given how morale works in this game. Opponent kills 7-8 guys and your ablative wounds actually work against you, not for you. Much better off with two squads of 5 unless you specifically run Red Corsairs and can Tide of Traitors a squad.

I hate to say it, but I see no good reason to run a 10 man squad over two 5 man squads when they cost the same, the two small squads can take more special weapons, and are more flexible and resistant to morale. Sure, strats and abilities are more effective on big squads, but what strat would you possibly spend on a marine squad that wouldn't be better spent on havocs, warp talons, terminators, possessed, chosen, or obliterators? The one exception being something like Renescant infiltration to snag objectives, and even there any unit could do that job. My squads take slaneesh because it's free and I can double tap in an emergency, but if I'm boosting a 5 man csm squad things have gone tits up and I'm grasping at straws, those strats have much higher priority elsewhere.

One reason there is but only if you intend to Run corsair blobs of doom.

Not Online!!! wrote:
One reason there is but only if you intend to Run corsair blobs of doom.

Are they not too fragile without transport?

How do sonic dreads for EC stack up these days?

 MrMoustaffa wrote:

 p5freak wrote:

Yoyoyo wrote:
You guys want to talk about troops?

Let's say you had to field a 10-strong unit of CSM. What are your favorite loadouts, stratagem/HQ support and tactics to make them impactful?

Chainaxe and combi bolter on the champion, boltgun marines as ablative wounds, two marines have LC as anti armor, or RCC as anti infantry. They usually are slaneesh, just in case i want to use EC. A chaos lord nearby for reroll 1s to hit, and a sorcerer with prescience/warptime. And of course VOTLW.

Edit:NVM, can't read, didn't realize csm squads can take 2 heavy weapons if they have 10

To answer his question myself, slaneesh AL, Combiplas/plas if I need them to pull weight, stock if I plan on them being more objective grabbers. Idk if I'd kit out a full 10 man squad given how morale works in this game. Opponent kills 7-8 guys and your ablative wounds actually work against you, not for you. Much better off with two squads of 5 unless you specifically run Red Corsairs and can Tide of Traitors a squad.

I hate to say it, but I see no good reason to run a 10 man squad over two 5 man squads when they cost the same, the two small squads can take more special weapons, and are more flexible and resistant to morale. Sure, strats and abilities are more effective on big squads, but what strat would you possibly spend on a marine squad that wouldn't be better spent on havocs, warp talons, terminators, possessed, chosen, or obliterators? The one exception being something like Renescant infiltration to snag objectives, and even there any unit could do that job. My squads take slaneesh because it's free and I can double tap in an emergency, but if I'm boosting a 5 man csm squad things have gone tits up and I'm grasping at straws, those strats have much higher priority elsewhere.

Yeah, most of the time, probably better to stick to min 5 man squads. If want to go big, might as well go 20 man. And that's only if you have a specific plan in mind. But damage won't be the plan. Whether 5 man, 10 man, 20 man, no matter the special weapon options you put on it, CSM squads are just basic troop choices. Other units will hit harder, do more damage, be more durable, etc etc. Like I think I could make a case for a 20 man blob of WE CSM. Use the strategem to move them 9 inches forward, and move up a dark Apostle along with them who can provide that 5++ invul aura. So, now you have a blob of 20 man CSM world waters who can do 4 attacks in one round, kill chaff and are big sized enough to tie up lots of stuff. The only question why you don't do a 20 man zerker squad is because that is too obvious a target to be focused on, so your zerkers will likely be riding in Rhinos alongside this charging big 20 man blob.

Another case for the 20 man blob would be red corsairs, because of their strategem that can bring back a whole blob. It basically forces the opponent to focus down 20 CSM or risk the whole blob coming back again. But again, this is more for stuff to tag things in combat, and prevent shooting units from shooting. No matter how you equip it, a 20 man CSM squad won't really do that much damage to something (unless its against chaff like guardsmen).


Automatically Appended Next Post:
On a separate note, I wish there were ways I can work in Abaddon. I have the model painted up, and he looks so badass. But its hard to fit in black legion without making the BL detachment a main contingent.

Where is techsolden? I remember he used to field lascannon spam? How is the black legion lascannon spam going now? Or are there other lists which can benefit from having Abaddon inside them as a key anchor?

I'm also running Lascannon spam and it's still doing well, against Space Wolves and Raven Guard at least (2 of the players in my group). Albeit only the RG really list-builds/plays at a tournament level, and against him I basically need to ally in a knight to REALLY stand a chance.

Hey guys. Just have a quick question if anyone would like help out.

My friend got 3 SC boxsets of CSM and 4 box of cultists for Christmas and he Is wondering what's the best 1k list he can make with those units e.g. 3 Master of Possession, 30 CSM, 3 venom crawlers, 6 Obliteraters and 20 cultists.

He mainly wants a good 1k list because that is what we normally play and we are thinking of doing a batrep for the game as well.

So, if you guys could recommend a CSM legion he should start with as well as regarding Faith and Fury extra bits for all the legions if possible. Thanks in-advance for any help you guys give.

Eldenfirefly wrote:
CSM squads are just basic troop choices. Other units will hit harder, do more damage, be more durable, etc.

Units don't function in isolation, though. Imagine we have a 600pt game.


I think the second list would have a decent shot at beating the first, even as a Patrol det. Silly example of course but I'm sure you see what I'm getting at.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Maybe this:

- 2x MoP
- 2x8 CSM w/RCC, combi-bolter, power sword
- 20x Cultists
- 3x Obliterators
- 2x Venomcrawlers

Alpha Legion is probably a good choice as you can fall back and shoot, redeploy and advance, hide the Oblits, good passive trait and nice 2+ save for the MoP that can save on perils, etc.

Yoyoyo wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
One reason there is but only if you intend to Run corsair blobs of doom.

Are they not too fragile without transport?

Yesn't.
If you really intend to make them work you need more then 1 / 3 squads in that setup. ( esle the enemy just targets the bigger ones and that leaves removes that instantly.) Otoh you can technically consider it in a 5/5/ 10 setup in order to preciscly draw fire and have an alternative plan.

Personally i run atm a list running around a core of 65 CSM in my list, 6 x 10 and 1 time 5 for keeping an home obejctive.
I also include 10 CSM of khorne with icon and melee eqipment to reliably tie something up.
Also, with the right defensive buffs ( A da with -1 to hit prayer, a sorcerer with the FNP spell from slaanesh and prescience) the CSm themselves become okaish to sturdy.

Then i add in other firemagnets: Like 10 terminators, 10 Havocs with, A butcher decimator, A termi lord, etc. Stuff that needs to be dealt with or else is going to ruin someones day.


Against most TAC lists, it works by the very nature of beeing an actual skew list, because atm most tac lists aren't overly effective here against an infantry only army in essence. Also at 11 pts CSM really aren't that sad to loose. Exception though if you run into, as allready mentioned, marines due to switching to tac doctrine and runing your day.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Odrankt wrote:
Hey guys. Just have a quick question if anyone would like help out.

My friend got 3 SC boxsets of CSM and 4 box of cultists for Christmas and he Is wondering what's the best 1k list he can make with those units e.g. 3 Master of Possession, 30 CSM, 3 venom crawlers, 6 Obliteraters and 20 cultists.

He mainly wants a good 1k list because that is what we normally play and we are thinking of doing a batrep for the game as well.

So, if you guys could recommend a CSM legion he should start with as well as regarding Faith and Fury extra bits for all the legions if possible. Thanks in-advance for any help you guys give.

Ok let's see, first question is, can he fix the CSM squads up to have full bolter loadouts ? if not well then it get' annoying.

Generally:
assuming you want to remain with the theme, i'd imagine you'd want a HS detachment consiting of

HQ MOP: Staff, cursed earth and another spell 88 pts.

2x 1 Venom crawler. 230pts.

1x3 Obliterators 285 pts.

603 pts:

Then you need to fuel the upper part probably:

Sorcerer, staff, warptime, and depending what else. 88
Another sorcerer with staff 88

3x 5 CSM, AC 195pts.

371 pts



That would be: 9 CP
979 pts.

The issue is though, that the CSM in the SC box are stupidly equiped. Venom crawlers at 115 are decent imo, add in some of the psy support and the right spell and you are in buisness.

Consider addining in a special detachment for soulforged, for maximum daemonenegine flinging, and use the obliterators to delete something.
Everything here is marked slaanesh aswell, in order to gain access to the 5+++ and doubleshooting.


Leftover units he'd have with this 1 venomcrawler.
9 melee marines, 3 champions with pp, 3 PG csm.

6 Greater possessed, (consider converting them in to a 5 man squad and a greater possessed eventually for a potential swap in.)


Optimally, you'd make the battalion into RC, for 3+ add on CP.allowing for more stratagems beeing used for your units.
Alternatively convert a sorcerer in the battalion into a lord for rerolls.

the heavy support detachment, should be an legion detachment to gin access to VotLW aswell as allowing access to slaanesh, consider either A(AL, due to the possibility of conceal shenanigans, and the re deployment strat. add in I am alpharius for a second warlord trait for that.) RC, gain the warlord trait for them, allowing you a free relic to be taken furthering the ammount of shenanigans possible.

I keep reading that CSM are just basic CSM and thus can't hurt anybody. If you assume all the buffs they can get, a 20-man blob can easily kill a knight in one round of combat, two via the fight twice stratagem.
So them not being capable of damage is not really true. I will say though that still having the necessary numbers and all the pieces in place is a whole different story, not to mention the costs and the fact that you are probably better off using those pieces on other stuff.

Niiru wrote:
How do sonic dreads for EC stack up these days?

Sonic Dreads are pretty neat. Twin blastmaster and missile launcher comes in at a cool 104pts. I tend to field 3 of them - not very survivable once your opponent starts targeting them, but they have the range to do damage right from the get-go. Can be a bit swingy in terms of damage output, but with re-rolls from lords, they can do work - and don't forget Fire Frenzy!

Eldenfirefly wrote:
On a separate note, I wish there were ways I can work in Abaddon. I have the model painted up, and he looks so badass. But its hard to fit in black legion without making the BL detachment a main contingent.

Where is techsolden? I remember he used to field lascannon spam? How is the black legion lascannon spam going now? Or are there other lists which can benefit from having Abaddon inside them as a key anchor?

Here. Black Legion Lascannon spam still works, with some modifications.

These days, most of my games are against NuMarines, Dark Eldar, Orks and Imperial Knights. You kind of have to optimize for NuMarines and hope it works out against the rest.

I now use Scorpius Whirlwinds instead of Predators, Deredeos instead of Helbrutes, a Chainlord in place of a Daemon Prince, and fewer Cultists. This means a lot less lascannons but much better tactics. I can stick the Scorpius' behind terrain at the start of the game to mow down Intercessors before they get into range while my other guns take out tanks and whatnot. It's about as efficient as I could hope for in the new meta.

When NuMarines came out, I explored a lot of ideas around list design. The other lists I play include Daemon Primarchs and a Chaos Knights / Black Legion list. I don't believe you can currently build a TAAC list with Chaos, you optimize and end up with something that's great against either NuMarines or everything else, but not both. The BLLC spam comes the closest to the middle ground, but now it's more vulnerable to hordes / models with high wound count.

Here's my thoughts pre-Faith and Fury on Chaos List design. Not much has changed, winning lists involve some combination of high T, high mobility, long range guns, good invuls, psychic, and indirect fire. Infantry / most Daemon Engines / deep strikers / Codex tanks are all sub-optimal choices and the best units to look at are listed in the post.

How does lasspam work? Havocs or CSMs with 2 and abbadon?

 Roknar wrote:
So them not being capable of damage is not really true. I will say though that still having the necessary numbers and all the pieces in place is a whole different story, not to mention the costs and the fact that you are probably better off using those pieces on other stuff.

Right, the real issue is economy and how it can fit into your overall strategy. If you have mech infantry to contest the midfield, let the opposition wail on them and stay even on points while units like the Scorpius chip away at the opponent for 6 turns. Premiere shooting and top-tier assault are probably better to squish the T8 armor anyway.

In that case you're not really looking for the CSM to do any heavy lifting in terms of damage. It's more about how they can hold cost-effectively or win out in fights they'd otherwise lose. They can take 2x Plasma Pistols and a Power Fist for example, not great offensively but much better if something too big for chainswords consolidates into them. It solves none of their offensive issues but if your main goal is capping objectives and holding ground -- it makes a certain amount of sense. Same general idea as what Matthew Allee was doing with Warpflame Pistols on his Aspiring Sorcerers in a few GTs he won.

Doesn't any marine based plan fall apart when Marines turn our saves into flak armor with their basic gun?

There's a few weaknesses we can exploit.

- Bolt Rifle damage tanks if they have to move.
- S4 starts to fall off against T5+.
- Cover saves, negatives to hit and damage saves help.
- A lot of their performance comes from re-rolls.
- Invul saves aren't affected by doctrine, and they can't be in all at once.

SM best-case scenario is we try to out-shoot their gunline and deliver our units right into their killzone. Their worst-case scenario is they have to split up their castle and footslog, which impedes their bonus shots and officer rerolls, before we get them in CC where they can't use their fancy guns.

Regardless of units chosen, you want to not let them leverage their strengths.

 Dr.Duck wrote:
How does lasspam work? Havocs or CSMs with 2 and abbadon?

'
I was running up to 28 on Predators, Helbrutes and CSMs. It's now possible to get into the 30s with Havocs in a separate detachment at 2k points.

In the perfect lascannon spam game, you deploy everything on your own table edge and never move. It works because you keep all your guys in range of Abaddon's aura, which means each gun hits / wounds about 80% of the time. Your opponent is forced to make bad saves and you get a "free" round of shooting after destroying all their long range guns but before anything gets into charge range. Then you have a bunch of beatsticks waiting around to kill anything that does charge.

 techsoldaten wrote:

 Dr.Duck wrote:
How does lasspam work? Havocs or CSMs with 2 and abbadon?

'
I was running up to 28 on Predators, Helbrutes and CSMs. It's now possible to get into the 30s with Havocs in a separate detachment at 2k points.

In the perfect lascannon spam game, you deploy everything on your own table edge and never move. It works because you keep all your guys in range of Abaddon's aura, which means each gun hits / wounds about 80% of the time. Your opponent is forced to make bad saves and you get a "free" round of shooting after destroying all their long range guns but before anything gets into charge range. Then you have a bunch of beatsticks waiting around to kill anything that does charge.

Would just like to chime in that Norlitith crown is now just 80 points. And that expanding Aura giving all your hellbrutes and predators a 5++ is nothing to sniff at for just 80 points. On a related note to Abaddon though. How many ever tried a list where the strategy is the move Abaddon up to the midfield? The lascannon spam list basically has him staying stationary. Anyone had any success in a list where his goal is to move up to mid field so that he can bring his awesome combat abilities to bear to hold down the mid board ?

Eldenfirefly wrote:

 techsoldaten wrote:

 Dr.Duck wrote:
How does lasspam work? Havocs or CSMs with 2 and abbadon?

'
I was running up to 28 on Predators, Helbrutes and CSMs. It's now possible to get into the 30s with Havocs in a separate detachment at 2k points.

In the perfect lascannon spam game, you deploy everything on your own table edge and never move. It works because you keep all your guys in range of Abaddon's aura, which means each gun hits / wounds about 80% of the time. Your opponent is forced to make bad saves and you get a "free" round of shooting after destroying all their long range guns but before anything gets into charge range. Then you have a bunch of beatsticks waiting around to kill anything that does charge.

Would just like to chime in that Norlitith crown is now just 80 points. And that expanding Aura giving all your hellbrutes and predators a 5++ is nothing to sniff at for just 80 points. On a related note to Abaddon though. How many ever tried a list where the strategy is the move Abaddon up to the midfield? The lascannon spam list basically has him staying stationary. Anyone had any success in a list where his goal is to move up to mid field so that he can bring his awesome combat abilities to bear to hold down the mid board ?

I would assume this would rely more on terminators, but I'm interested to hear what people chime in with.

I did not like any of my attempts at running Abaddon with terminators. Ran 1 unit of 10 and 2 units of 5 all with chainaxes and combi-plasma, laying down prescience/benediction of darkness on the 10 man unit and having it shoot twice.
Got picked apart pretty easily without getting in range to really do damage with plasma.

Rihgu wrote:
I did not like any of my attempts at running Abaddon with terminators. Ran 1 unit of 10 and 2 units of 5 all with chainaxes and combi-plasma, laying down prescience/benediction of darkness on the 10 man unit and having it shoot twice.
Got picked apart pretty easily without getting in range to really do damage with plasma.

You'd pretty much have to deepstrike them all, they're way too fragile to walk them up the table. They should delete some stuff when they drop, in theory.

Niiru wrote:

Eldenfirefly wrote:

 techsoldaten wrote:

 Dr.Duck wrote:
How does lasspam work? Havocs or CSMs with 2 and abbadon?

'
I was running up to 28 on Predators, Helbrutes and CSMs. It's now possible to get into the 30s with Havocs in a separate detachment at 2k points.

In the perfect lascannon spam game, you deploy everything on your own table edge and never move. It works because you keep all your guys in range of Abaddon's aura, which means each gun hits / wounds about 80% of the time. Your opponent is forced to make bad saves and you get a "free" round of shooting after destroying all their long range guns but before anything gets into charge range. Then you have a bunch of beatsticks waiting around to kill anything that does charge.

Would just like to chime in that Norlitith crown is now just 80 points. And that expanding Aura giving all your hellbrutes and predators a 5++ is nothing to sniff at for just 80 points. On a related note to Abaddon though. How many ever tried a list where the strategy is the move Abaddon up to the midfield? The lascannon spam list basically has him staying stationary. Anyone had any success in a list where his goal is to move up to mid field so that he can bring his awesome combat abilities to bear to hold down the mid board ?

I would assume this would rely more on terminators, but I'm interested to hear what people chime in with.

Counterpoint: would you rather have 20+ lascannons shooting for 2 rounds with full rerolls to hit, or Abaddon marching up the board for close combat?

My experience has been he's better used for cleanup after your opponent is reduced to infantry. He excels at that role.

Eldenfirefly wrote:

 techsoldaten wrote:

 Dr.Duck wrote:
How does lasspam work? Havocs or CSMs with 2 and abbadon?

'
I was running up to 28 on Predators, Helbrutes and CSMs. It's now possible to get into the 30s with Havocs in a separate detachment at 2k points.

In the perfect lascannon spam game, you deploy everything on your own table edge and never move. It works because you keep all your guys in range of Abaddon's aura, which means each gun hits / wounds about 80% of the time. Your opponent is forced to make bad saves and you get a "free" round of shooting after destroying all their long range guns but before anything gets into charge range. Then you have a bunch of beatsticks waiting around to kill anything that does charge.

Would just like to chime in that Norlitith crown is now just 80 points. And that expanding Aura giving all your hellbrutes and predators a 5++ is nothing to sniff at for just 80 points. On a related note to Abaddon though. How many ever tried a list where the strategy is the move Abaddon up to the midfield? The lascannon spam list basically has him staying stationary. Anyone had any success in a list where his goal is to move up to mid field so that he can bring his awesome combat abilities to bear to hold down the mid board ?

80 points, and a Detachment.

I've always been a massive fan of World Eaters and Night Lords, and with the boons granted them by Faith and Fury I've been wanting to try them out. I've drafted two lists, and I am having a hard time deciding which I like better:

The first:


The second:


The plan is to deploy aggressively, with the Warp Talons and Terminators in DS and the cultists on any backfield objectives. Turn one, rush forward with the Rhinos, Defiler(s) and DP/Sorcerer. If I can get off Warptime, that and careful maneuvering can enable a Defiler a charge as low as a 7, which should cause issues for my opponent and allow my other units to move up while the Defiler in their line gets focused turn one.

I like the second, as it gets me the second Defiler for further distractions once the first goes down, but I don't get Kharn who is a serious blender and I'll have one less Terminator and Berzerker. I also have to cut the Icons on some Berzerkers which could be a pain, especially given how few CP I have to begin with.

Thoughts?

Yoyoyo wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
One reason there is but only if you intend to Run corsair blobs of doom.

Are they not too fragile without transport?

They're more than twice as durable than the same number of cultists against basic bolter shots, which is nice. A couple squads of 5 with an autocannon each can probably hold their own well enough to be worth their points in a red corsairs CP battery. Which is part of my current plan of a triple battalion, night lords, world eaters, and red corsairs. Gotta pay for all the CP it takes to make two characters with 75+% chances of killing knights in a single fight work, along with two lord discordants.

There is no reason to run noctilith crown, helbrutes, preds when there are hellforged contemptor dreads.