Not Online!!! wrote: Honest opinion, the Crown works a lot better for R&H then for csm.
Your Garden variety leman russ is a lot better then predator.
But what May be interesting to try would be a cultists army that way .
Considering, that with reroll on it for psy you could nigh guarantee a 5+++ or -1 to hit.
You could theoretically bring three of them in a single detachment, by T3 the aura would cover literally half the board.
Not Online!!! wrote: Honest opinion, the Crown works a lot better for R&H then for csm.
Your Garden variety leman russ is a lot better then predator.
But what May be interesting to try would be a cultists army that way .
Considering, that with reroll on it for psy you could nigh guarantee a 5+++ or -1 to hit.
You could theoretically bring three of them in a single detachment, by T3 the aura would cover literally half the board.
why do you think i suggested that be done with R&H instead, having your own zone full of bodies is your average army. Also by turn 2 with only two you allready have a voerage of in esssence half our board.
alternatively a cultist AL army with a double or tripple setup with some sorcerers and DA with cultleader trait, might actually be something so stupid it just might work.
Yoyoyo wrote: Just out of curiousity, what would a Leman Russ spearhead do tactically for CSM?
Honestly i'd go directly for a battalion instead, remember, you allready would need a detachment slot for 2-3 Noctilith.
for 137 pts you'd get a T8 double dakka BC, with a heavy bolter. ( basically a slightly cheaper more sturdier no melee defiler) That can operate independantly.
In Havoc centric list it might give some diversionary targets, maybee even decent if you want to go MSU marine spam, considering you get a lascannon with 4 ablative wounds nowadays for 70 pts.
Spoiler:
3x that leman russ would be 411 pts.
Then you'd add in the cheap R&H battalion (50 for 2 commanders 120 pts for 30 mutants or militia, depending on your favourites)
so for 531 pts you'd get a R&H battalion that has 3 leman russes for potentiall dakka threat saturaion. Add in another 160 pts for 2 noctiliths and you'd be by 691 pts.
The question is , which army would you tack this on.
Also if you want you could use 102 pts to add in 15 dudes with 6 snipers with a native -1 to hit against them and 3 + SV in cover.
I would rather do 3 defilers and kharn the betrayer than the crown and some russes. Keep all 3 defilers within 1" of kharn (or 2 and 1 uses deamonforged) for rerolling all hits and being a semi mobile incredibly nasty cc force with anti tank equipment. Give all 3 defilers scourges and twin las and call it a day.
Battlescribe is screaming at me over roster validation issues and and I want to make sure I'm not doing something wrong.
Battalion (Red Corsairs) and Spearhead (Alpha Legion) Detachment.
Corsair Detachment has Exalted Champ Warlord, and has taken Reaver Lord as the Warlord Trait, which lets me take a second Relic. The other two Exalted Champs in that list have the relics (Black Mace and Axe of Blind Fury).
Alpha Legion Detachment has a Sorcerer and I've paid 1 CP for 'We Are Alpharius'. That means he can take a Warlord trait without being a Warlord. I took Master of Diversion.
Battlescribe says I have too many relics, too many Warlords, and that the Sorcerer cannot have 'We Are Alpharius'.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Battlescribe is screaming at me over roster validation issues and and I want to make sure I'm not doing something wrong.
Battalion (Red Corsairs) and Spearhead (Alpha Legion) Detachment.
Corsair Detachment has Exalted Champ Warlord, and has taken Reaver Lord as the Warlord Trait, which lets me take a second Relic. The other two Exalted Champs in that list have the relics (Black Mace and Axe of Blind Fury).
Alpha Legion Detachment has a Sorcerer and I've paid 1 CP for 'We Are Alpharius'. That means he can take a Warlord trait without being a Warlord. I took Master of Diversion.
Battlescribe says I have too many relics, too many Warlords, and that the Sorcerer cannot have 'We Are Alpharius'.
What am I doing wrong?
For the first part, there should be an option towards the top of the subselection to indicate 'Reaver Lord Artefact'. This will get rid of the "too many relics" concern. If you do have this option selected, then remove the relic and add it again. Note that the "Artefacts of Chaos" box will change to read "Artefacts of Chaos (Reaver Lord)" after this selection has been made.
I don't have your problem with the Sorcerer. When I select "We Are Alpharius" for him, it allows me to select a Warlord Trait for him - in spite of the fact that I already have an Exalted Champion with Reaver Lord.
I made two separate army lists that are based off of the concept of the chaos possessed ball. I currently do not own any possessed, but having a tough to hit unit (Plaguebearers) in the middle of the field to keep all my characters safe and deny enemy movement seems fine. Obviously it's not as good, but I'm trying to make due with what I have.
I use Oblits/PBC's/Psychic Phase to be the teeth of my list. I buff the hell out of obliterators.
Obliterator Buffs:
Prescience: +1 to hit
Delightful Agonies: 5+ FNP Alpha Legion: -1 to hit over 12"
Benediction of Darkness: -1 to hit
Warpsight Plea: +1 to hit
Cursed Earth: +1 invuln save
Infernal Power: Re-roll Hit & Wound rolls of 1
Veterans of the long war: +1 to wound
Endless Cacophany: Shoot twice
Is this worth having so much dedication to them? I feel like they should be able to delete things and be relatively durable. I also have a good amount of threat saturation.
The TSons cult of Magic giving a better chance to be dealing more damage (as well as the new cult of magic AOE MW spell) the psykers should deal a ton of damage as well.
Any thoughts would be appreciated. Like I said this isn't better than the possessed strategy, but it's a similar concept with the models that I have.
Azuza001 wrote: I would rather do 3 defilers and kharn the betrayer than the crown and some russes. Keep all 3 defilers within 1" of kharn (or 2 and 1 uses deamonforged) for rerolling all hits and being a semi mobile incredibly nasty cc force with anti tank equipment. Give all 3 defilers scourges and twin las and call it a day.
Depends on how the terrain is like in the area where you play. For me, I have had a lot of problems trying to move a castle made up of even two defilers across the board that has a decent amount of terrain. The foot print of one defiler is similar to a knight. So trying to move a castle that has 3 defilers and trying to keep them within 1 inch of Kharn is like trying to move 3 knights stuck together across the board. In order words... extremely challenging...
Now, if you are going to leave them stationary as a firing platform, its probably ok. But if you plan to move them ... Practically, I would say there would be huge issues.
My castle was 2 defilers, 1 forgefiend and 1 Disco Lord. I already had a LOS which independently went off to do its own thing. LOS don't need to be babysat. Suffice to say, the castle couldnt even make it to mid board because of terrain issues.
Biskits wrote: I made two separate army lists that are based off of the concept of the chaos possessed ball. I currently do not own any possessed, but having a tough to hit unit (Plaguebearers) in the middle of the field to keep all my characters safe and deny enemy movement seems fine. Obviously it's not as good, but I'm trying to make due with what I have.
I use Oblits/PBC's/Psychic Phase to be the teeth of my list. I buff the hell out of obliterators.
Obliterator Buffs:
Prescience: +1 to hit
Delightful Agonies: 5+ FNP Alpha Legion: -1 to hit over 12"
Benediction of Darkness: -1 to hit
Warpsight Plea: +1 to hit
Cursed Earth: +1 invuln save
Infernal Power: Re-roll Hit & Wound rolls of 1
Veterans of the long war: +1 to wound
Endless Cacophany: Shoot twice
Is this worth having so much dedication to them? I feel like they should be able to delete things and be relatively durable. I also have a good amount of threat saturation.
The TSons cult of Magic giving a better chance to be dealing more damage (as well as the new cult of magic AOE MW spell) the psykers should deal a ton of damage as well.
Any thoughts would be appreciated. Like I said this isn't better than the possessed strategy, but it's a similar concept with the models that I have.
Piling buffs on AL oblits works really well for lots of reasons, I think though you'd be better using conceal and taking more troops to screen them. You could take rubrics as a tough troop to make a t son battalion or more cultists/plaguebearers.
I'm using a list at the moment with possessed and oblits and it works well. T1 conceal the possessed, t2 conceal oblits behind buffed up possessed who I've hopefully wartimes into combat.
I take the master of possession with the warp lord extra warlord trait and give him the drakescale plate. If he gets sniped the whole list gets worse!
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh also nurglings arre gret for conceal , stick them behind a wall near enemy, put character in front of concealed unit. Character is untargetable until they kill nurglings they can't see!
Azuza001 wrote: I would rather do 3 defilers and kharn the betrayer than the crown and some russes. Keep all 3 defilers within 1" of kharn (or 2 and 1 uses deamonforged) for rerolling all hits and being a semi mobile incredibly nasty cc force with anti tank equipment. Give all 3 defilers scourges and twin las and call it a day.
Depends on how the terrain is like in the area where you play. For me, I have had a lot of problems trying to move a castle made up of even two defilers across the board that has a decent amount of terrain. The foot print of one defiler is similar to a knight. So trying to move a castle that has 3 defilers and trying to keep them within 1 inch of Kharn is like trying to move 3 knights stuck together across the board. In order words... extremely challenging...
Now, if you are going to leave them stationary as a firing platform, its probably ok. But if you plan to move them ... Practically, I would say there would be huge issues.
My castle was 2 defilers, 1 forgefiend and 1 Disco Lord. I already had a LOS which independently went off to do its own thing. LOS don't need to be babysat. Suffice to say, the castle couldnt even make it to mid board because of terrain issues.
Oh I agree. That's why I put the "or 2 and 1 uses deamonforged" part in. It's not hard to keep 2 near kharn, you just train them with kharn in the middle, if 1 defiler fits then the next one will in the next movement phase as well. Then the 3rd can go off and crab battle on his own as long as you have the cp to burn.
Typically I use mine as backfield objective holders and counter charge units though.
Yoyoyo wrote: Just out of curiousity, what would a Leman Russ spearhead do tactically for CSM?
Honestly i'd go directly for a battalion instead, remember, you allready would need a detachment slot for 2-3 Noctilith.
for 137 pts you'd get a T8 double dakka BC, with a heavy bolter. ( basically a slightly cheaper more sturdier no melee defiler) That can operate independantly.
In Havoc centric list it might give some diversionary targets, maybee even decent if you want to go MSU marine spam, considering you get a lascannon with 4 ablative wounds nowadays for 70 pts.
Do you think R&H are sustainable? I mean, aren't they going to be vacuumed in the next CA or move to legend sooner or later?
I loved corrupted IG, chaos soldiers, and previous incarnations of R&H, and have a bataillon of models converted as cultists. However, the fear of GW's annihilating the army prevent me from buying more models (Leman Russ & cie).
Yoyoyo wrote: Just out of curiousity, what would a Leman Russ spearhead do tactically for CSM?
Honestly i'd go directly for a battalion instead, remember, you allready would need a detachment slot for 2-3 Noctilith.
for 137 pts you'd get a T8 double dakka BC, with a heavy bolter. ( basically a slightly cheaper more sturdier no melee defiler) That can operate independantly.
In Havoc centric list it might give some diversionary targets, maybee even decent if you want to go MSU marine spam, considering you get a lascannon with 4 ablative wounds nowadays for 70 pts.
Do you think R&H are sustainable? I mean, aren't they going to be vacuumed in the next CA or move to legend sooner or later?
I loved corrupted IG, chaos soldiers, and previous incarnations of R&H, and have a bataillon of models converted as cultists. However, the fear of GW's annihilating the army prevent me from buying more models (Leman Russ & cie).
Nope, not at all afraid about sustainability: before R&H there was the Lost and the damned. And frankly, the infantry for R&H 2.0 is allready out in the form of BSF, the only thing missing there is a HQ that is not a marine bully or a traitor commisar (which really should've been an enforcer.)
Yoyoyo wrote: Just out of curiousity, what would a Leman Russ spearhead do tactically for CSM?
Honestly i'd go directly for a battalion instead, remember, you allready would need a detachment slot for 2-3 Noctilith.
for 137 pts you'd get a T8 double dakka BC, with a heavy bolter. ( basically a slightly cheaper more sturdier no melee defiler) That can operate independantly.
In Havoc centric list it might give some diversionary targets, maybee even decent if you want to go MSU marine spam, considering you get a lascannon with 4 ablative wounds nowadays for 70 pts.
Do you think R&H are sustainable? I mean, aren't they going to be vacuumed in the next CA or move to legend sooner or later?
I loved corrupted IG, chaos soldiers, and previous incarnations of R&H, and have a bataillon of models converted as cultists. However, the fear of GW's annihilating the army prevent me from buying more models (Leman Russ & cie).
Nope, not at all afraid about sustainability: before R&H there was the Lost and the damned. And frankly, the infantry for R&H 2.0 is allready out in the form of BSF, the only thing missing there is a HQ that is not a marine bully or a traitor commisar (which really should've been an enforcer.)
The question is whether they'll fix r&h in the new fw books or release a new traitor guard codex. But they'll continue in some form.
Yeah if they kill off R&H worst case scenario you can just run them as cultists. There has to be some sort of traitor IG army in the works if they take down R&H, that is way too iconic of a force in the lore to not have an army in some capacity. And given how Blackstone Fortress keeps releasing traitor guard stuff in plastic, my hopes is that this is the buildup to a proper chaos guard codex, or at least a proper reboot in the new FW rules the GW team is working on.
It's a natural choice, half it's range is already good to go (IG vehicles, not to mention BF stuff) and you can tack on Daemon Engines, CSM like Dark Apostles or Warpsmiths, and some low level daemons for good measure. All you need to do to make them a legitimate army is a chaos guardsmen kit, a heavy weapons kit, a command squad box, and a vehicle upgrade sprue. Bam, brand new army, and helps buff the rest of the chaos codexes a bit by providing various things they need, aka long range firepower and cheap bodies for screens/cp. It would be a much cheaper proper army than most of the alternatives, and that's part of why GSC exist. Half the range was already done, pull a few choice units from the IG and Nids codexes, fill the gaps with unique hybrid and characters, and you're done. If interest keeps up, release more kits, just like GSC.
As for what it adds to chaos, if you're going to add anything I'd think it would be basilisks or tank commanders. Remember, you can run tank commanders for BS3 and orders, which even at about a 40pt markup over a regular tank is worth it. Anything else is kind of trash sadly, most of the units are very overcosted or just plain worse than something Chaos already has.
To Squat R&H, they”d have to discontinue a lot of FW, and they recently announced that FW rules are going to be rewritten by the GW studio. I think traitor guard collectors are safe per se, the only question is when and in what form do they get continuity
I have this list, I'm debating on swapping the dark apostle for the cheapest chaos Lord for redundant rerolls of one, if internal power fails for some reason. Opinions?
Lord Discordant on Helstalker [9 PL, 170pts]: Baleflamer, Mark of Khorne
. Helstalker: Techno-virus injector
Lord Discordant on Helstalker [9 PL, 170pts]: Baleflamer, Mark of Khorne
. Helstalker: Techno-virus injector
Lord Discordant on Helstalker [9 PL, 170pts]: Baleflamer, Mark of Khorne
. Helstalker: Techno-virus injector
+ Troops +
Chaos Space Marines [4 PL, 77pts]: No Chaos Mark
. Aspiring Champion: Chainsword, Combi-bolter
. 3x Marine w/ Boltgun
. Marine w/ Heavy or Special Weapon: Reaper chaincannon
Chaos Space Marines [4 PL, 77pts]: No Chaos Mark
. Aspiring Champion: Chainsword, Combi-bolter
. 3x Marine w/ Boltgun
. Marine w/ Heavy or Special Weapon: Reaper chaincannon
Chaos Space Marines [4 PL, 77pts]: No Chaos Mark
. Aspiring Champion: Chainsword, Combi-bolter
. 3x Marine w/ Boltgun
. Marine w/ Heavy or Special Weapon: Reaper chaincannon
+ Heavy Support +
Maulerfiend [7 PL, 122pts]: Lasher tendrils, Mark of Khorne
no room for jump packs, or term lord (with a lord I'm at 2k of 2k), plus the oblits (generally) need to roll with the MoP (otherwise this list is rather pointless), which has access to neither.
Because I didn't say the MoP has infernal power (giving rerolls of 1s to hit/wound); cursed earth, to give the oblits a 4++; daemonsmith (exploding 6s), and insidium (to buff himself).
Dark Apostle has Benediction of Darkenss (to help protect oblits) and when they're dead/out of range for some reason, Omen of Potency to make him a beatstick
Chaos Lord would switch with the Dark Apostle to be a redundant source of reroll 1s to hit, in case the MoP fails for some reason.
xenoterracide wrote: no room for jump packs, or term lord (with a lord I'm at 2k of 2k), plus the oblits (generally) need to roll with the MoP (otherwise this list is rather pointless), which has access to neither.
Because I didn't say the MoP has infernal power (giving rerolls of 1s to hit/wound); cursed earth, to give the oblits a 4++; daemonsmith (exploding 6s), and insidium (to buff himself).
Dark Apostle has Benediction of Darkenss (to help protect oblits) and when they're dead/out of range for some reason, Omen of Potency to make him a beatstick
Chaos Lord would switch with the Dark Apostle to be a redundant source of reroll 1s to hit, in case the MoP fails for some reason.
Then excuse me, but that is a rather Bad gameplan, obliterators should never footslog, and the mop does not work in non castle versions of daemonikn Style lists die to the lack of Mobility.
xenoterracide wrote: I have this list, I'm debating on swapping the dark apostle for the cheapest chaos Lord for redundant rerolls of one, if internal power fails for some reason. Opinions?
Lord Discordant on Helstalker [9 PL, 170pts]: Baleflamer, Mark of Khorne
. Helstalker: Techno-virus injector
Lord Discordant on Helstalker [9 PL, 170pts]: Baleflamer, Mark of Khorne
. Helstalker: Techno-virus injector
Lord Discordant on Helstalker [9 PL, 170pts]: Baleflamer, Mark of Khorne
. Helstalker: Techno-virus injector
+ Troops +
Chaos Space Marines [4 PL, 77pts]: No Chaos Mark
. Aspiring Champion: Chainsword, Combi-bolter
. 3x Marine w/ Boltgun
. Marine w/ Heavy or Special Weapon: Reaper chaincannon
Chaos Space Marines [4 PL, 77pts]: No Chaos Mark
. Aspiring Champion: Chainsword, Combi-bolter
. 3x Marine w/ Boltgun
. Marine w/ Heavy or Special Weapon: Reaper chaincannon
Chaos Space Marines [4 PL, 77pts]: No Chaos Mark
. Aspiring Champion: Chainsword, Combi-bolter
. 3x Marine w/ Boltgun
. Marine w/ Heavy or Special Weapon: Reaper chaincannon
+ Heavy Support +
Maulerfiend [7 PL, 122pts]: Lasher tendrils, Mark of Khorne
Why is the RC detachment a soulforged pack ? You dont use master of the soulforges. The disco lords can already charge after advancing, no need for infernal engines. Or is it just for the maulerfiend ?? Why the maulerfiend anyway ? You already have three melee daemon engines.
The IW dark apostle cannot have two prayers of the dark gods.
Then excuse me, but that is a rather Bad gameplan, obliterators should never footslog, and the mop does not work in non castle versions of daemonikn Style lists die to the lack of Mobility.
not going to LVO or any of the big tourney's this did me fairly well in our local ITC tourney (4th out of 13 and I should have been 3rd (I think) as 2 of my games didn't actually finish at no fault of my own). The only place this fell apart was against a vehicle heavy eldar, and deep striking them wouldn't have helped at all, as the problem was 1 a big line of sight blocking in the middle of the board, and then the ability to kite me around. TBD I'm going to play the person that won's list next week.
Why is the RC detachment a soulforged pack ? You dont use master of the soulforges. The disco lords can already charge after advancing, no need for infernal engines. Or is it just for the maulerfiend ?? Why the maulerfiend anyway ? You already have three melee daemon engines.
The IW dark apostle cannot have two prayers of the dark gods.
it's for 2 things, allowing the maulerfiend to advance and charge, and the ability to double the wound profile for determining the number of attacks. I've not found master of soulforges particularly useful, most of the time I'm either in, or out, rarely have I found 2 inches making a huge difference. Also, my LD's die too fast for one to make a good choice as a warlord, which is also why I take the maulerfiend, additional melee.
The dark apostle can have 2 prayers selected, you just can't cast more than one at a time.
You are right about the dark apostle, he knows two prayers, but one is already set, its called dark zealotry. You can only choose one additional prayer.
That seems to be the correct interpretation ~ every other player and Battlescribe reads the rules that way. That said, from page 168 from Vigilus Ablaze:
"This model can chant prayers. It knows the Dark Zealotry prayer and one prayer from the Prayers to the Dark Gods."
So let's check the prayers to the dark gods:
"Before the battle, generate the prayers for Priests that can chant prayers from Prayers to the Dark Gods... a <Mark of Chaos> Priest that can chant prayers from the Prayers to the Dark Gods also knows the appropriate <Mark of Chaos> prayer on the right."
So when I first read that, I thought you got Dark Zealotry, one Prayer to the Dark God, and also the <Mark of Chaos> prayer. I suppose the difference is the use of the word "know" - here it is used to refer to the available options before getting to the battlefield.
How quickly does a Storm Eagle with 15 Possessed in it go pop? What about with 5++ and additional -1 to hit (-2 total with Hard To Hit) from WBDA double prayer? It's further possible to get -3 with Miasma if you get first turn but that's not to be relied upon.
The main benefits of this approach is that it's immune to TFC shenanigans and is extremely mobile. Additionally, you aren't locked to AL / EC for the survivability strats and can instead pick WB for +damage and +attacks.
The downside is that you can be shot at T1 and will definitely take fire T2 as you attempt to get into position. It's also an additional 274 points for the ride.
This isn't really a strategy worth pursuing with the new FW rules to be released but it's something I've been thinking about.
Don Qui Hotep wrote: That seems to be the correct interpretation ~ every other player and Battlescribe reads the rules that way. That said, from page 168 from Vigilus Ablaze:
"This model can chant prayers. It knows the Dark Zealotry prayer and one prayer from the Prayers to the Dark Gods."
So let's check the prayers to the dark gods:
"Before the battle, generate the prayers for Priests that can chant prayers from Prayers to the Dark Gods... a <Mark of Chaos> Priest that can chant prayers from the Prayers to the Dark Gods also knows the appropriate <Mark of Chaos> prayer on the right."
So when I first read that, I thought you got Dark Zealotry, one Prayer to the Dark God, and also the <Mark of Chaos> prayer. I suppose the difference is the use of the word "know" - here it is used to refer to the available options before getting to the battlefield.
Reading over it (and the wording in the Chaos Codex is the same as Vigilus Ablaze - "... also knows...") I tend to agree with your interpretation of that.
saint_red wrote: How quickly does a Storm Eagle with 15 Possessed in it go pop? What about with 5++ and additional -1 to hit (-2 total with Hard To Hit) from WBDA double prayer? It's further possible to get -3 with Miasma if you get first turn but that's not to be relied upon.
The main benefits of this approach is that it's immune to TFC shenanigans and is extremely mobile. Additionally, you aren't locked to AL / EC for the survivability strats and can instead pick WB for +damage and +attacks.
The downside is that you can be shot at T1 and will definitely take fire T2 as you attempt to get into position. It's also an additional 274 points for the ride.
This isn't really a strategy worth pursuing with the new FW rules to be released but it's something I've been thinking about.
Depends who you're playing, vs tau and guard or mele armies, not very quickly. If you play space marines, aeldari or csm with rerolls turn 1.
Don Qui Hotep wrote: That seems to be the correct interpretation ~ every other player and Battlescribe reads the rules that way. That said, from page 168 from Vigilus Ablaze:
"This model can chant prayers. It knows the Dark Zealotry prayer and one prayer from the Prayers to the Dark Gods."
So let's check the prayers to the dark gods:
"Before the battle, generate the prayers for Priests that can chant prayers from Prayers to the Dark Gods... a <Mark of Chaos> Priest that can chant prayers from the Prayers to the Dark Gods also knows the appropriate <Mark of Chaos> prayer on the right."
So when I first read that, I thought you got Dark Zealotry, one Prayer to the Dark God, and also the <Mark of Chaos> prayer. I suppose the difference is the use of the word "know" - here it is used to refer to the available options before getting to the battlefield.
Reading over it (and the wording in the Chaos Codex is the same as Vigilus Ablaze - "... also knows...") I tend to agree with your interpretation of that.
Don Qui Hotep wrote: That seems to be the correct interpretation ~ every other player and Battlescribe reads the rules that way. That said, from page 168 from Vigilus Ablaze:
"This model can chant prayers. It knows the Dark Zealotry prayer and one prayer from the Prayers to the Dark Gods."
So let's check the prayers to the dark gods:
"Before the battle, generate the prayers for Priests that can chant prayers from Prayers to the Dark Gods... a <Mark of Chaos> Priest that can chant prayers from the Prayers to the Dark Gods also knows the appropriate <Mark of Chaos> prayer on the right."
So when I first read that, I thought you got Dark Zealotry, one Prayer to the Dark God, and also the <Mark of Chaos> prayer. I suppose the difference is the use of the word "know" - here it is used to refer to the available options before getting to the battlefield.
hmm... battlescribe doesn't restrict you to just one, I don't know why it would allow multiple if you can't... that said... if you're right there's almost certainly no point in taking the apostle.
Hi people! Now that we had time to test Faith and Fury and the point drops... What do you think of Terminators?
They surely are not tournament tier, but can they pull some weight in a casual game? Especially together with Obliterators and other elite infantry for target saturation.
I'm thinking khorne for reroll charges, axes for cheapness and bolters for troops clearing. WE for damage or IW for Dour Duty and ignore cover. Cacophony strategy is for Obliterators.
DarklyDreaming wrote: Hi people! Now that we had time to test Faith and Fury and the point drops... What do you think of Terminators?
They surely are not tournament tier, but can they pull some weight in a casual game? Especially together with Obliterators and other elite infantry for target saturation.
I'm thinking khorne for reroll charges, axes for cheapness and bolters for troops clearing. WE for damage or IW for Dour Duty and ignore cover. Cacophony strategy is for Obliterators.
What's your take?
Combiplas terminators do Show up in well placing csm lists you realize that right? And they are generally in a purgh detachment or al and marked as slaanesh.
Fwiw though the cheapo loadout is a Handy tool to bring regardless of legion /warband.
DarklyDreaming wrote: Yeah but Oblits are far superior for damage, range (12 vs 24), sinergies and easier to put in cover, if I use the Slannesh combo is gonna be them
Automatically Appended Next Post: Good to hear that you find the cheap termi useful!
i run 10 (2x5 with chainaxes combibolter and reaper autocannons in my massed marine list)
4 shots each within 24" aswell as beeing rather tough cookies makes for fun surprises. Alternatively depending on scenario, i run them in a 10 man blob with lord support as slaanesh, for obvious reasons.
DarklyDreaming wrote: Yeah but Oblits are far superior for damage, range (12 vs 24), sinergies and easier to put in cover, if I use the Slannesh combo is gonna be them
Automatically Appended Next Post: Good to hear that you find the cheap termi useful!
i run 10 (2x5 with chainaxes combibolter and reaper autocannons in my massed marine list)
4 shots each within 24" aswell as beeing rather tough cookies makes for fun surprises. Alternatively depending on scenario, i run them in a 10 man blob with lord support as slaanesh, for obvious reasons.
I like to take at least one squad, size varying depending on available points, combiplas and chainaxes. Drop in play "prey on the weak " safely overcharge hitting on 2s=primaris vaporizers.
Tibs Ironblood wrote: For a Tac list comprising three squads of 5 man CSMs at 1000-1500 points would you give them a combi plasma/plasma gun or a single gatling cannon?
I'd go with autocannons if they are objective lurkers.
It can Attack anything ok, and eats primaris for breakfast.
Dr.Duck wrote: Im not sure reaper auto cannons are worth picking up on terms. Correct me if im wrong but they are the 4 S7 -1 D1 shots right?
Yea, that's the one. If you have points to spare and want your terminators to sit back they're relatively inexpensive and do pretty decent shots. the D1 kinda kills em though. better to take havocs with real autocannons imho.
Dr.Duck wrote: Im not sure reaper auto cannons are worth picking up on terms. Correct me if im wrong but they are the 4 S7 -1 D1 shots right?
Yea, that's the one. If you have points to spare and want your terminators to sit back they're relatively inexpensive and do pretty decent shots. the D1 kinda kills em though. better to take havocs with real autocannons imho.
Wait? do havocs have access to actual auto cannons rather than reapers?
Played my first game with CSM for a good all while at the weekend, faced a GSC/nids list with ridge runners, hiveguard, aberants and some chaff with a load of characters.
I played Alpha legion with world eater support and I wanted to try some of the new stuff.
I had a big blob of 30 AL marines, some obliterated and devs, berserkers daemon princes and sorcerer backed up by a load of cultists. I also had a apostle and a bike chaos lord.
Takeaways - The bike chaos lord was a complete boss! I gave him the WL trait that allows him to snipe characters and cause a MW on a 6 to hit, combine this with the combi bolter relic (S5,-3,D2) and extra combibolter he can have on his bike and he was running around putting out 8 shots a turn doing mortalis and murdering all kinds of things. Took out a patriarch, Magnus, sanctus and alpha in 3 turns of shooting. I know it's an index option now but he was amazing!
Oblits are super powerful but we all know that. Havocs with long ranged weapons are very useful. I took a bare bones combibolter unit of terminators with chain axes and a fist on the srg who were great for their points.
Berserkers and daemon princes are really good when warptimed, no change there.
All the new alpha legion strats do a great job of posing your opponent questions and making them double guess there strategy- really like them.
Overall the army was great fun to use with more options and power than when I last ran it a year or two ago
Dr.Duck wrote: Im not sure reaper auto cannons are worth picking up on terms. Correct me if im wrong but they are the 4 S7 -1 D1 shots right?
Yea, that's the one. If you have points to spare and want your terminators to sit back they're relatively inexpensive and do pretty decent shots. the D1 kinda kills em though. better to take havocs with real autocannons imho.
Wait? do havocs have access to actual auto cannons rather than reapers?
If Havocs had access to "REAPER"- Autocannons, then i 'd honestly doubt we'd see the reaper chaincannon that often.
Also imo the investment into the reaper AC on terminators off 10 pts, is allways paying off for me atleast.
It's an immensly usefull tool against heavy infantry or dreadnoughts.
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WisdomLS wrote: Played my first game with CSM for a good all while at the weekend, faced a GSC/nids list with ridge runners, hiveguard, aberants and some chaff with a load of characters.
I played Alpha legion with world eater support and I wanted to try some of the new stuff.
I had a big blob of 30 AL marines, some obliterated and devs, berserkers daemon princes and sorcerer backed up by a load of cultists. I also had a apostle and a bike chaos lord.
Takeaways - The bike chaos lord was a complete boss! I gave him the WL trait that allows him to snipe characters and cause a MW on a 6 to hit, combine this with the combi bolter relic (S5,-3,D2) and extra combibolter he can have on his bike and he was running around putting out 8 shots a turn doing mortalis and murdering all kinds of things. Took out a patriarch, Magnus, sanctus and alpha in 3 turns of shooting. I know it's an index option now but he was amazing!
Oblits are super powerful but we all know that. Havocs with long ranged weapons are very useful. I took a bare bones combibolter unit of terminators with chain axes and a fist on the srg who were great for their points.
Berserkers and daemon princes are really good when warptimed, no change there.
All the new alpha legion strats do a great job of posing your opponent questions and making them double guess there strategy- really like them.
Overall the army was great fun to use with more options and power than when I last ran it a year or two ago
Yeah , the F&F AL shenanigans that are now possible are quite imppresive.
I absolutely love shuffeling my 3 lord discordants and helldrake for funsies.
Not to mention that the infiltration stratagem is great utility.
I will probably tommorow try a slightly abstuse list in a fun match but basically i want to play around a core of cultists, cult leader apostle and a noctilith crown in a 1000 pts game.
I also honestly think that it is quite possible for AL, to run cultists lists again, but with a significantly diffrent spin on it. ( Apostles, Sorcerers and lords, probably 2 each, benediction of darnkess, - the Slaanesh spell for FNP and the lords for rerolls.
Even with +1 to hit and +1 to wound a Reaper is only dealing 1 wound per 4 shots at a dreadnought. About the same vs Terminators. About 1.5 wounds to a Primaris.
Im not completely sold. Still firmly in the combiplas camp. Shorter range but hey
Reaper is for a footslogging unit with Combi-bolters.
Struggle to think of an instance where this is efficient. Especially with a meta adapting to abundant Primaris. 2W does not go as far as it used to. Maybe midfield objective camping? Even then, you either have to walk there, or teleport onto it, and that depends on an opponent letting you control the early game.
You could post Nurglings on the ground, ensuring you don’t get out-teleported if you lose first turn, but then if you want to drop Nurgle terminator gunners on an objective you take Blightlords
The other day I posted a list in the daemon thread, but it was wrong since I forgot about the rule of three for my princes. Here's the corrected version with a greater emphasis on CSM. The berzerker with the pistol is in the same unit as the others, I just separated him out for clarity's sake. The remaining points that I have are going to be used for deepstriking the bloodthirster, prepared positions if I need it, with one left over. One question I had is if the apostle is worth it since Benediction of Darkness can only buff one unit at a time.
ArcaneHorror wrote: The other day I posted a list in the daemon thread, but it was wrong since I forgot about the rule of three for my princes. Here's the corrected version with a greater emphasis on CSM. The berzerker with the pistol is in the same unit as the others, I just separated him out for clarity's sake. The remaining points that I have are going to be used for deepstriking the bloodthirster, prepared positions if I need it, with one left over. One question I had is if the apostle is worth it since Benediction of Darkness can only buff one unit at a time.
Dark Apostle [HQ] (Dark Zealotry, Benediction of Darkness) – 72
Dark Disciples (2) – 10
Aspiring Berzerker Champion: Combi-melta and power axe – 35
Khorne Berzerker x 1 [Relic: Crimson Killer]: Plasma pistol and chainaxe – 21
Khorne Berzerkers x 4: Bolt pistol and chainsword – 60
Icon of Wrath – 10
Aspiring Champion: Boltgun and bolt pistol – 11
Chaos Space Marine Heavy: Reaper autocannon and bolt pistol – 21
Chaos Space Marines x 3 – 33
Aspiring Champion: Boltgun and bolt pistol - 11
Chaos Space Marine Heavy: Reaper chaincannon and bolt pistol – 31
Chaos Space Marines x 3: Boltgun and bolt pistol – 33
Havoc Champion: Bolt pistol and chainsword – 14
Havoc x 4: Lascannon – 156
Khorne Daemon Supreme Command Detachment:
Skarbrand [HQ] – 290
Karanak [HQ] – 70
Skullmaster [HQ] – 90
Bloodmaster [HQ] – 56
Skulltaker [HQ] – 84
Khorne Daemon Supreme Command Detachment:
Bloodthirster of Unfettered Fury [HQ] [Relic: Armour of Scorn] – 210
Daemon Prince of Chaos with Wings [HQ]: Malefic talons – 165
Daemon Prince of Chaos with Wings [HQ] [Relic – Skullreaver]: Daemonic Axe – 165
Daemon Prince of Chaos with Wings [HQ] [Relic – King of Blades]: Hellforged Sword – 165
Points: 1993
Command points: 6
Please play this list and tell us how it does! It's wild, it's out there. I will say CSM Daemon princes are likely better than their cousins in the Daemon codex... mostly due to Hateful assault and relics.
Im curious what people really think about warp talons having played them? They only deny overwatch when they deepstrike so thats T2. Is that Viable?
They can fairly easily get of T1 charges but not sure if they beat some of our other options.
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Dr.Duck wrote: Im curious what people really think about warp talons having played them? They only deny overwatch when they deepstrike so thats T2. Is that Viable?
They can fairly easily get of T1 charges but not sure if they beat some of our other options.
I feel like the marine meta has kinda shoved all other factions into fringe and gimmicks.
weaver9 wrote: Please play this list and tell us how it does! It's wild, it's out there. I will say CSM Daemon princes are likely better than their cousins in the Daemon codex... mostly due to Hateful assault and relics.
Thanks. I had to make some more changes, so I edited it some more and did indeed moved a prince to the WE battalion, with no wings. I'll probably replace the Obliterator with a Rhino once I've finished building the Rhino. For now, I'll teleport the Obliterator.
Curious about Alpha Legion Possessed Bombs. Anyone running such a list right now?
I played against one last night with my Grey Knights. It ended badly for Alpha Legion, they had no answer to smite spam, but I could see the potential.
His Possessed were very hard to hit, it was -4 the whole game. They managed to catch up with a GMNDK and a Terminator squad, hitting and wounding on 2+. I'm pretty sure they had 4 attacks per model, which made saves a moot point.
He also had a disco lord that was very hard to hit, I might have done a couple wounds with a Psilencer. There were so many buffs being applied to so many models, I honestly had a hard time figuring out what was doing what.
Aside from mortal wound spam, are there any good strategies for taking them down?
techsoldaten wrote: Curious about Alpha Legion Possessed Bombs. Anyone running such a list right now?
I played against one last night with my Grey Knights. It ended badly for Alpha Legion, they had no answer to smite spam, but I could see the potential.
His Possessed were very hard to hit, it was -4 the whole game. They managed to catch up with a GMNDK and a Terminator squad, hitting and wounding on 2+. I'm pretty sure they had 4 attacks per model, which made saves a moot point.
He also had a disco lord that was very hard to hit, I might have done a couple wounds with a Psilencer. There were so many buffs being applied to so many models, I honestly had a hard time figuring out what was doing what.
Aside from mortal wound spam, are there any good strategies for taking them down?
anything that doesn't rely on hit rolls, crack the discordant or that which stands infront of the bomb to make conceal work and you are golden.
Smite spam is an obvious candidate for destroying it.
Snipers can potentially eliminate the buffers (depends if your army has actual sniper units worth their salt so all not SM ones are not really an option)
A giant tarpit or two to just stop the bomb in it's tracks, rather unlikely to work though.
Orks with their 6+ allways hit.
Units that can easily get +1 to hit for stacking reasons.
A smash captain.
Eldenfirefly wrote: Just make sure you don't play grey knights because 4MW smites will kill you super quickly.
I guess the new Grey Knights may actually be the worst case hardcounter.
Further, Possesed bomb is based on "daemons" which makes GK even worse potentially and also since the new tides i believe came out GK tend to show up and win some tournaments.
What sort of things would work for a pure Black Legion army? I really hate mixing legion detachments but not sure what sort of tricks to look at with Black Legion. Possessed? Lord Discos and daemon engines?
Wayniac wrote: What sort of things would work for a pure Black Legion army? I really hate mixing legion detachments but not sure what sort of tricks to look at with Black Legion. Possessed? Lord Discos and daemon engines?
Lascannons. Lots of em. Make use of Abaddon's re-rolls and outrange your opponents with high value shots.
Abigail dropping with Obliterators works as well, simply because hitting with almost all your shots is a game changer on their already expensive price tag.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Abigail dropping with Obliterators works as well, simply because hitting with almost all your shots is a game changer on their already expensive price tag.
Iron Warriors do that better with a Termie Lord or JP Lord by simple virtue of the Rampant Technovirus strat. Increases your odds of getting that all-important D2+ from 66.67% to 88.89%. I feel Abby would be best in a Havoc/ FW Dread castle for full to hit rerolls (while Big Bad himself makes for a solid charge deterrent) or footslogging up surrounded by various Daemon Engines and a Discolord (make Discolord WL for the half damage taken WL trait).
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Abigail dropping with Obliterators works as well, simply because hitting with almost all your shots is a game changer on their already expensive price tag.
Iron Warriors do that better with a Termie Lord or JP Lord by simple virtue of the Rampant Technovirus strat. Increases your odds of getting that all-important D2+ from 66.67% to 88.89%. I feel Abby would be best in a Havoc/ FW Dread castle for full to hit rerolls (while Big Bad himself makes for a solid charge deterrent) or footslogging up surrounded by various Daemon Engines and a Discolord (make Discolord WL for the half damage taken WL trait).
Yeah Abby is wasted on one sqaud of oblits. He works well with big squads of csm, lots of daemon engines or a gunline full of havocks. I ise AL oblits because conceal means ypu can use them more often but IW works well also.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: You mean you don't trust the document with a lot of various errors and ended up pricing Ogryns and Thunder Hammers obscenely more?
Yes, not to mention the whole disregard for many a FW subfaction list with issues since the start of 8th, or any various other mindboggling changes like dropping regular sorcerers AND MoP, (not to complain but i feel like there is a bit of a big enough difference between CSM psy and SM psy which seems to be the reason why the CSM sorcerer and MoP dropped to librarian standard. and whilest the MoP was imo necessary i just don't see it as good when we drop the regular CSM sorcerer aswell even though he HAS the superior Psy school. but maybee i am just too concerned.)
How about Abby with Nurgle Oblits and a Gnarlmaw? Can throw in a Defiler if you want to Warptime something into your opponent’s face, double advance and double heavy Flamer and a cheeky battlecannon hit
I had to go to one of the game stores today so I picked up a Maulerfiend since I wasn't sure what else to get. It would sit with 2 Venomcrawlers and a Lord Discordant as of right now.
Wayniac wrote: I had to go to one of the game stores today so I picked up a Maulerfiend since I wasn't sure what else to get. It would sit with 2 Venomcrawlers and a Lord Discordant as of right now.
That’s actually a pretty decent BL contingent. The LD can take a WT that mitigates it’s vulnerability, and by taking a Warpsmith you can have a safe pair of hands for the +2M Soulforged aura.
The BL endurance WT is probably even better now. Recent buffs to Primaris mean the metagame’s medium-heavy firepower is attracted towards 2D attacks. Nerfing Autocannons and Bolt Sniper Rifles can go a long way.
If you’re up for Daemonkin, they’d all have great synergy with Slaaneshi Daemons or a Gnarlmaw. Advance plus charge plus +2M means one or two of them will start punching on T1.
I was thinking of getting some possessed because I had read something about a possessed bomb but couldn't find info on it and between the models being ugly as hell and possessed usually sucking I passed on them.
Wayniac wrote: I had to go to one of the game stores today so I picked up a Maulerfiend since I wasn't sure what else to get. It would sit with 2 Venomcrawlers and a Lord Discordant as of right now.
That’s actually a pretty decent BL contingent. The LD can take a WT that mitigates it’s vulnerability, and by taking a Warpsmith you can have a safe pair of hands for the +2M Soulforged aura.
The BL endurance WT is probably even better now. Recent buffs to Primaris mean the metagame’s medium-heavy firepower is attracted towards 2D attacks. Nerfing Autocannons and Bolt Sniper Rifles can go a long way.
If you’re up for Daemonkin, they’d all have great synergy with Slaaneshi Daemons or a Gnarlmaw. Advance plus charge plus +2M means one or two of them will start punching on T1.
However, outside that Warlord Trait and a couple of relics (Sightless Helm is actually neat), Black Legion doesn't offer anything. Alpha Legion is still king.
Wayniac wrote: I had to go to one of the game stores today so I picked up a Maulerfiend since I wasn't sure what else to get. It would sit with 2 Venomcrawlers and a Lord Discordant as of right now.
That’s actually a pretty decent BL contingent. The LD can take a WT that mitigates it’s vulnerability, and by taking a Warpsmith you can have a safe pair of hands for the +2M Soulforged aura.
The BL endurance WT is probably even better now. Recent buffs to Primaris mean the metagame’s medium-heavy firepower is attracted towards 2D attacks. Nerfing Autocannons and Bolt Sniper Rifles can go a long way.
If you’re up for Daemonkin, they’d all have great synergy with Slaaneshi Daemons or a Gnarlmaw. Advance plus charge plus +2M means one or two of them will start punching on T1.
However, outside that Warlord Trait and a couple of relics (Sightless Helm is actually neat), Black Legion doesn't offer anything. Alpha Legion is still king.
Of course. I just like Black Legion and hate mixing legions in the same army.
Greater Possessed do interesting things with Venomcrawlers.
[EDIT]: Also, does anyone know why Battlescribe is yelling at me if I try to add more than 5 Havoc units into a Spearhead. It keeps saying that the Havoc limit is 5, and I cannot for the life of me work out why.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Greater Possessed do interesting things with Venomcrawlers.
[EDIT]: Also, does anyone know why Battlescribe is yelling at me if I try to add more than 5 Havoc units into a Spearhead. It keeps saying that the Havoc limit is 5, and I cannot for the life of me work out why.
...Huh! That's an odd bug. I think someone may have accidentally indicated the maximum number of units for Havocs is 5, although that's only the number of Havoc models in a single unit.
Might I suggest reporting this on the Warhammer 40,000 Battlescribe GitHub?
Wayniac wrote: What sort of things would work for a pure Black Legion army? I really hate mixing legion detachments but not sure what sort of tricks to look at with Black Legion. Possessed? Lord Discos and daemon engines?
Abbadon with a gunline type of army. Because Abby is Black legion's best character. He is a monster in close combat, and he gives rerolls to all BL units within 6 inches. Yet, he can only move 6 inches. So, he is best in a gunline army to provide his aura buffs and be a massive counter attack melee threat. The only slight problem with this is that other armies can probably do gunline better than we can.
CSM's niche is its daemon engines. Something that loyalists armies don't have. But Daemon engines suffer from being jack of all traits, master of none. They can't shoot as well as dedicated shooting platforms, and they can't fight as well as dedicated fighting platforms. Plus they also have to be costed for being a daemon engines with a 5++, and most daemon engines have a 4+ BS only. You have to baby sit them with a Lord of discordant just to bring that to a BS 3+. And actually, I think Iron Warriors can do Daemon Engine theme better because a lot of their strategems benefit vehicles.
So, Abby gunline is probably more effective in this shooting edition. But Daemon engine army is more fluffy. And for possessed bomb, that works better with Alpha legion, not BL.
Wayniac wrote: I was thinking of getting some possessed because I had read something about a possessed bomb but couldn't find info on it and between the models being ugly as hell and possessed usually sucking I passed on them.
Yes, its very hard to type possessed bomb into google
Good choice passing on them, they can kill only two knights in one turn, they suck really hard.
Wayniac wrote: I was thinking of getting some possessed because I had read something about a possessed bomb but couldn't find info on it and between the models being ugly as hell and possessed usually sucking I passed on them.
Yes, its very hard to type possessed bomb into google
Good choice passing on them, they can kill only two knights in one turn, they suck really hard.
Instead of snark you could've answered him.
@wayniac it's a Max blob of possesed with a Lord discordant infront with maximum AL -1 to hit stacked on it and conceal used on the possesed.
CSM's niche is its daemon engines. Something that loyalists armies don't have. But Daemon engines suffer from being jack of all traits, master of none. They can't shoot as well as dedicated shooting platforms, and they can't fight as well as dedicated fighting platforms. Plus they also have to be costed for being a daemon engines with a 5++, and most daemon engines have a 4+ BS only. You have to baby sit them with a Lord of discordant just to bring that to a BS 3+. And actually, I think Iron Warriors can do Daemon Engine theme better because a lot of their strategems benefit vehicles.
Daemon engines require a lot of support. I lost three support characters when two of my venowcrawlers blew up, dealing more damage to me, than to the enemy It sucks that buff bubbles are 6", and crawlers explode 6"
Wayniac wrote: I was thinking of getting some possessed because I had read something about a possessed bomb but couldn't find info on it and between the models being ugly as hell and possessed usually sucking I passed on them.
Yes, its very hard to type possessed bomb into google
Good choice passing on them, they can kill only two knights in one turn, they suck really hard.
A venomcrawler at 115 pts with it's detonation rules can and should operate alone as a merry little suicide Bomber tick.
Atleast that is how i Run mine. Funnily enough it still get's shot surprisingly often and makes for a semi solid distraction carnifex. Semi solid because if you are not going first you might get it blown up on your side.
I'm running a WE venomcrawler and greater possessed in a battalion with Khorne daemons. Yes I know, loss of legion trait and everything, but it'll be fun to see if unstoppable ferocity and locus of rage will let me do interesting things. It will probably just end up (literally) blowing up in my face.
ArcaneHorror wrote: I'm running a WE venomcrawler and greater possessed in a battalion with Khorne daemons. Yes I know, loss of legion trait and everything, but it'll be fun to see if unstoppable ferocity and locus of rage will let me do interesting things. It will probably just end up (literally) blowing up in my face.
No matter if only blood was shed.
We also das some nurgle detachments a whole back. Not sure if as effective but certainly a interesting combination .
Wayniac wrote: I was thinking of getting some possessed because I had read something about a possessed bomb but couldn't find info on it and between the models being ugly as hell and possessed usually sucking I passed on them.
Yes, its very hard to type possessed bomb into google
Good choice passing on them, they can kill only two knights in one turn, they suck really hard.
Instead of snark you could've answered him.
@wayniac it's a Max blob of possesed with a Lord discordant infront with maximum AL -1 to hit stacked on it and conceal used on the possesed.
Thanks for the non-snarky reply, unlike that other guy. So it seems like since I'm doing Black Legion and not Alpha I wouldn't get a lot of use out of them? Right now I think I'll focus on sort of a gunline with daemon engines and go from there. I just want to avoid mixing legions i hate that even being a thing but that means sticking 100% with Black Legion so I'm not really sure what the best use of that is.
ArcaneHorror wrote: I'm running a WE venomcrawler and greater possessed in a battalion with Khorne daemons. Yes I know, loss of legion trait and everything, but it'll be fun to see if unstoppable ferocity and locus of rage will let me do interesting things. It will probably just end up (literally) blowing up in my face.
I’m afraid taking CSM units in a Khorne detachment kills LoR. DAEMON has to be a *faction* keyword to unlock CD perks.
Also, for the sake of completion, UF isn’t going to apply to the CSM units
ArcaneHorror wrote: I'm running a WE venomcrawler and greater possessed in a battalion with Khorne daemons. Yes I know, loss of legion trait and everything, but it'll be fun to see if unstoppable ferocity and locus of rage will let me do interesting things. It will probably just end up (literally) blowing up in my face.
No matter if only blood was shed.
We also das some nurgle detachments a whole back. Not sure if as effective but certainly a interesting combination .
Please Tell us your results.
I was thinking of having a feculent gnarlmaw in my Iron Warriors to both buff some Nurgle-marked obliterators and give them cover as well.
Wayniac wrote: I was thinking of getting some possessed because I had read something about a possessed bomb but couldn't find info on it and between the models being ugly as hell and possessed usually sucking I passed on them.
Yes, its very hard to type possessed bomb into google
Good choice passing on them, they can kill only two knights in one turn, they suck really hard.
Instead of snark you could've answered him.
@wayniac it's a Max blob of possesed with a Lord discordant infront with maximum AL -1 to hit stacked on it and conceal used on the possesed.
Thanks for the non-snarky reply, unlike that other guy. So it seems like since I'm doing Black Legion and not Alpha I wouldn't get a lot of use out of them? Right now I think I'll focus on sort of a gunline with daemon engines and go from there. I just want to avoid mixing legions i hate that even being a thing but that means sticking 100% with Black Legion so I'm not really sure what the best use of that is.
Legions and warbands often work together in fluff, so mixing Alpha and Black Legion would not be against the lore at all.
Oh I know that, just I like to keep themed armies especially at the normal scale of 40k. So I like to have an entire army with the same legion/chapter/craftworld etc whenever possible.
Wayniac wrote: Oh I know that, just I like to keep themed armies especially at the normal scale of 40k. So I like to have an entire army with the same legion/chapter/craftworld etc whenever possible.
Run Abby with a gunline of lascannons. Techsolden had a list like that. Had like 18 or more lascannons in it. Don't think you will win a GT with it, but its should be more than competitive in a casual / semi casual setting / pickup game setting. Deploy far back at max range near the edge of the board and just try and shoot the opponent to bits. Abby will counter charge and murder anyone that dares to come close to the gunline while providing for full rerolls. Can be totally black legion.
(And since you are running mono black legion, you can consider adding a Norlitih crown too). An Abby gunline is rather static anyway, so it benefits alot from the Crown. Cos the crown gives an ever expanding huge aura of 5++ and makes your psykers better. All your lascannons (be it from vehicles like predator tanks or hacos)) will appreciate the 5++ the crown gives. And so will your troops. A big blob of thirty 5++ cultists that are immune to morale because of Abby and have 5+ FNP because of delightful agonies is pretty resilient and dirt cheap too.
Wayniac wrote: I was thinking of getting some possessed because I had read something about a possessed bomb but couldn't find info on it and between the models being ugly as hell and possessed usually sucking I passed on them.
I've been reading up on Possessed Bombs. No surprise you're confused, there's some contradictory information out about them.
As another poster mentioned, the basic mechanic is a Lord Discordant followed by a large squad of Possessed. You use various gimmicks to make the Possessed impossible to target, you use various buffs to make them an offensive Juggernaut.
This video does a good job explaining the concept:
But that's just the basics. There are 3 Legions competing for the best Possessed Bomb: Alpha Legion, Word Bearers and Death Guard. There's a case to be made for Thousand Sons, but it's not very fluffy.
The mechanics they all have in common are:
- make the Possessed hard / impossible to hit
- buff the Possessed
- assault your opponent
Alpha Legion has the Conceal Stratagem, your opponent can't shoot the Possessed unless they are the closest unit. It's the simplest. Word Bearers are different, to protect the Possessed, you rely on Nurgle Daemon allies, like a Feculent Gnarlmaw to make them harder to hit. The reason to choose Word Bearers is the buffs to Dark Apostles, which becomes more important during the assault. Death Guard have the Cloud of Flies stratagem, which also makes it so your opponent can't target the Possessed unless they are the closest unit. But they also have things like Myphitic Blighthaulers, which give them cover even when they are out in the open, and Plagueburst Crawlers, which are just plain hard to kill and have great flamer weapons.
For Thousand Sons, you can just use the Dark Matter Crystal to move the Possessed anywhere on the Board. But they lack access to key HQ units, which makes this tactic a little less effective than it would be otherwise.
In terms of buffs, you rely on HQ units to make them tougher. Greater Possessed, Masters of Possession and Dark Apostles have powers that make your Possessed more effective in combat. Some combination of Soultearer Portent, Diabolic Strength, Prescience, Miasma of Pestilence, Weaver of Fates, Delightful Agonies, Cursed Earth, and Mutated Invigoration all help. You want to focus on increasing the number of attacks, the strength of the attacks, and the resiliency of saves, in that order.
For Death Guard - they don't have access to these key units. You need Sorcerers and Noxious Blightbringers to make them effective. Blades of Putrefaction and Putresent Vitality give them an edge. Nurgle Daemons also help with Virulent Blessing and Miasma of Pestilence.
Then you assault. While Possessed can be made very potent, it's worth considering who else comes with them. A lot of people run Possessed behind a Lord Dischordant, mostly because of his movement. I'm not convinced he's the best option unless you're angling for a Turn 1 charge (which is often uncertain.) Other people use things like Myphitic Blighthaulers / Plagueburst Crawlers to shield their Possessed, which are capable of a similar level of offense.
Watch out for the following.
1) Grey Knights will wreck your pathetic bomb. Beware anything that does massed Mortal Wounds.
2) Make sure there is lots of LOS blocking terrain on the board when you play them. Especially if you are playing ITC missions.
3) If you gear your army for a first turn charge, have a good plan B in mind. It doesn't always happen.
4) Be careful about deep strikes. If you're marching Possessed up the Board, spread out to prevent opponents making them the closest unit. You really have to get the Possessed to the heart of your opponent's army, they can't afford to be tied up. If a small Terminator squad drops in and makes a charge, you can lose a turn smacking them down.
5) Flyers are another concern, Dark Eldar Venom lists can decimate Possessed Bombs before they get there.
ArcaneHorror wrote: I'm running a WE venomcrawler and greater possessed in a battalion with Khorne daemons. Yes I know, loss of legion trait and everything, but it'll be fun to see if unstoppable ferocity and locus of rage will let me do interesting things. It will probably just end up (literally) blowing up in my face.
I’m afraid taking CSM units in a Khorne detachment kills LoR. DAEMON has to be a *faction* keyword to unlock CD perks.
Also, for the sake of completion, UF isn’t going to apply to the CSM units
ArcaneHorror wrote: I'm running a WE venomcrawler and greater possessed in a battalion with Khorne daemons. Yes I know, loss of legion trait and everything, but it'll be fun to see if unstoppable ferocity and locus of rage will let me do interesting things. It will probably just end up (literally) blowing up in my face.
I’m afraid taking CSM units in a Khorne detachment kills LoR. DAEMON has to be a *faction* keyword to unlock CD perks.
Also, for the sake of completion, UF isn’t going to apply to the CSM units
I had an inkling about the locus, but UF as well?
Locus of Rage only affects Khorne Daemons and only in a pure Khorne Daemons detachment.
Unstoppable Ferocity only applies to Khorne Daemons. While the GP and VC have the DAEMON keyword, Unstoppable Ferocity only applies to units replacing the <allegiance> keyword with Khorne. In other words, it has to be a faction keyword, CSM don't have that.
A mixed detachment of CSM and chaos daemons doesnt get a legion trait, and no locus of rage. Both require pure detachments. You do get unstoppable ferocity, because its on a units datasheet, and only affects that unit.
WRT possessed bomb - the other thing WB have going for us is our ability to force through a spell
Warptime (and, often, Death Hex) is critical to a swift and decisive strike, and I’ll happily pay a CP and a W to make a T1 charge with twenty mini-Helbrutes
lindsay40k wrote: WRT possessed bomb - the other thing WB have going for us is our ability to force through a spell
Warptime (and, often, Death Hex) is critical to a swift and decisive strike, and I’ll happily pay a CP and a W to make a T1 charge with twenty mini-Helbrutes
Now that does sound cool. Hmm perhaps that will be a side project to the Black Legion, since the Word Bearers colors and fluff are top-notch just their trait is awful.
Yeah, Word Bearers are all about the spells and stratagems. Gone from being a terribad faction to the one with loads of moving parts and some wicked combos
ArcaneHorror wrote: I'm running a WE venomcrawler and greater possessed in a battalion with Khorne daemons. Yes I know, loss of legion trait and everything, but it'll be fun to see if unstoppable ferocity and locus of rage will let me do interesting things. It will probably just end up (literally) blowing up in my face.
Loss of the trait isn't a big deal as itself is only one extra attack. If you charge. It's pretty bad
ArcaneHorror wrote: I'm running a WE venomcrawler and greater possessed in a battalion with Khorne daemons. Yes I know, loss of legion trait and everything, but it'll be fun to see if unstoppable ferocity and locus of rage will let me do interesting things. It will probably just end up (literally) blowing up in my face.
Loss of the trait isn't a big deal as itself is only one extra attack. If you charge. It's pretty bad
Kind off a bummer here imo.
On one hand we should supposedly soup, (we get no incentives to ever NOT SOUP) otoh if we do we don't even get god specific advantages.
I've got a couple of games coming up and I really want to try out the Hellwright on Dark Abeyant... In order to do so I am planning to surrond him with some Hellforged Contemptors but I am not sure wich would be the ideal loadout form the (was thinking some Soullburnners to spam mortal wound and hope they get in cc second turn).
As form legion I probably would run them in a Alpha Legion Detchment to get that very much needed -1 to hit... but depending on the load out I was thinking to give the IW Warlord Trait (Stoic Advance) to the Hellwright to move and shoot.
Not Online!!! wrote: Kind off a bummer here imo.
On one hand we should supposedly soup, (we get no incentives to ever NOT SOUP) otoh if we do we don't even get god specific advantages.
Kinda lame imo.
Daemonkin uses separate detachments marching together in the same way that ULTRAMARINES space marines and MACRAGGE PDF imperial guard have to have discrete organisational structures
It would be interesting to see rules support for a DIETY detachment, that contains no more than one LEGION, retain both CD and CSM faction perks, but it’s not happening until a new Daemonkin codex - which would likely do a lot more than just roll out mixed detachments
Might be something for DEITY armies in the PA daemon expansion, like that storm table in 6/7ed
Not Online!!! wrote: Kind off a bummer here imo.
On one hand we should supposedly soup, (we get no incentives to ever NOT SOUP) otoh if we do we don't even get god specific advantages.
Kinda lame imo.
Daemonkin uses separate detachments marching together in the same way that ULTRAMARINES space marines and MACRAGGE PDF imperial guard have to have discrete organisational structures
It would be interesting to see rules support for a DIETY detachment, that contains no more than one LEGION, retain both CD and CSM faction perks, but it’s not happening until a new Daemonkin codex - which would likely do a lot more than just roll out mixed detachments
Might be something for DEITY armies in the PA daemon expansion, like that storm table in 6/7ed
I have a question for csm soup if i have one detachment and i put both black legion and night lord in the same detachment, what's happen?
1. lose legion trait for both legion ?
2. but i can access to both legion's stratagem, relic, warlord trait right?
kaiseric wrote: I have a question for csm soup if i have one detachment and i put both black legion and night lord in the same detachment, what's happen?
1. lose legion trait for both legion ?
2. but i can access to both legion's stratagem, relic, warlord trait right?
Lose legion traits for both legions, and access each legions Stratagems, relics, WLs, etc. With the understanding traditional restrictions around marks / legion / unit type apply.
For example, if you put Abaddon in a detachment with Night Lord Raptors, the Raptors don't get rerolls from Abaddon's aura.
Playing a friend next week. He plays sisters of battle souped with marines. He gives the sister of battle a order trait that makes their infantry treat ap -1 as AP 0. Then he takes two dialogues (character) which does the same thing in a 6 inch bubble. So, in effect, it makes all his sister of battle infantry treats -2 ap as ap 0. So he has big blog of sister infantry marching up the board which are extremely hard to kill. I never realised CSM, outside of lascannons have very few guns which are ap -3. And its such a waste to shoot lascannons at a big blob of cheap infantry (they get invul save too, from Celestine). And this treat AP -2 as 0 counts against both shooting and melee attacks!
So, I am really not sure how to handle this extremely hard to kill blob of sisters. They are 3+ armour save normally, and 2+ armor save in cover. 2+ armor save on cheap sisters infantry that treats battle cannons, autocannons, flamers, anything ap 2 as ap0 is better than terminators literally.
He also souped in iron hands and dark angels. Don't really need to go into iron hands. But his dark angels character is on a speeder that has twin assault cannons and has a strategem that allows him to move in, shoot, charge and get in his attacks, and then literally jump back out of combat again behind to the safety of his big blog of sisters even before I strike back...
So, yeah. extremely hard to kill sisters of battle taking up the middle board. Iron hands shooting, and then 2 dark angel speeder shenanigans ... Not quite sure how to handle this kind of list. Oh, and because he is playing sisters, he has lots of deny the witch attempts and even strategems to deny psychic attacks outright too. So, relying on psychic is extremely iffy against the army.
Yeah... so I am kinda stumped. lol I bring enough heavy shooting to outshoot his heavy shooting and I will lose to objectives and his mid board control. Actually, I am not even sure how to wrest mid board control away from such an army.
There should just be a broad allowance that Slaanesh/Emperor's Children, Nurgle/Death Guard, Tzeentch/Thousand Sons, and Khorne/World Eaters can ally with one another without the Daemons forgetting they are Daemons and the Legion forgetting how they fight, especially when said Daemons are in the damned Codex (looking at you Death Guard).
Eldenfirefly wrote: Playing a friend next week. He plays sisters of battle souped with marines. He gives the sister of battle a order trait that makes their infantry treat ap -1 as AP 0. Then he takes two dialogues (character) which does the same thing in a 6 inch bubble. So, in effect, it makes all his sister of battle infantry treats -2 ap as ap 0. So he has big blog of sister infantry marching up the board which are extremely hard to kill. I never realised CSM, outside of lascannons have very few guns which are ap -3. And its such a waste to shoot lascannons at a big blob of cheap infantry (they get invul save too, from Celestine). And this treat AP -2 as 0 counts against both shooting and melee attacks!
So, I am really not sure how to handle this extremely hard to kill blob of sisters. They are 3+ armour save normally, and 2+ armor save in cover. 2+ armor save on cheap sisters infantry that treats battle cannons, autocannons, flamers, anything ap 2 as ap0 is better than terminators literally.
He also souped in iron hands and dark angels. Don't really need to go into iron hands. But his dark angels character is on a speeder that has twin assault cannons and has a strategem that allows him to move in, shoot, charge and get in his attacks, and then literally jump back out of combat again behind to the safety of his big blog of sisters even before I strike back...
So, yeah. extremely hard to kill sisters of battle taking up the middle board. Iron hands shooting, and then 2 dark angel speeder shenanigans ... Not quite sure how to handle this kind of list. Oh, and because he is playing sisters, he has lots of deny the witch attempts and even strategems to deny psychic attacks outright too. So, relying on psychic is extremely iffy against the army.
Yeah... so I am kinda stumped. lol I bring enough heavy shooting to outshoot his heavy shooting and I will lose to objectives and his mid board control. Actually, I am not even sure how to wrest mid board control away from such an army.
CSM don't have a lot of great ways of getting rid of characters, unfortunately. I've been encouraged to try plugging the Master of Executions into a Rhino with maybe an Aspiring Champion and your melee unit of choice. My frustration is that it has no native mobility or deep strike options, which makes it very difficult to actually get him into combat - but if you could deliver him to the Dialogous, it's not like the Sisters blobs will be packing too much anti-tank - that I suppose is the job of the Iron Hands soup.
That said, what is the actual text of the Dialogus's ability? If it is "reduce the AP of all incoming attacks by 1" then it would stack, but if it is literally the same ability then it shouldn't stack like that.
For -3 AP, you can always stock up on Plasma! Take a few units of bikes and raptors for mobility and get them into position. Bikes can take two plasma and one combi-plasma per squad and raptors can take one plasma gun, one combi-plasma, and one plasma pistol. That should give you some maneuverability and firepower to break through the protections - but again, double-check the actual wording of the abilities.
Eldenfirefly wrote: Playing a friend next week. He plays sisters of battle souped with marines. He gives the sister of battle a order trait that makes their infantry treat ap -1 as AP 0. Then he takes two dialogues (character) which does the same thing in a 6 inch bubble. So, in effect, it makes all his sister of battle infantry treats -2 ap as ap 0. So he has big blog of sister infantry marching up the board which are extremely hard to kill. I never realised CSM, outside of lascannons have very few guns which are ap -3. And its such a waste to shoot lascannons at a big blob of cheap infantry (they get invul save too, from Celestine). And this treat AP -2 as 0 counts against both shooting and melee attacks!
So, I am really not sure how to handle this extremely hard to kill blob of sisters. They are 3+ armour save normally, and 2+ armor save in cover. 2+ armor save on cheap sisters infantry that treats battle cannons, autocannons, flamers, anything ap 2 as ap0 is better than terminators literally.
He also souped in iron hands and dark angels. Don't really need to go into iron hands. But his dark angels character is on a speeder that has twin assault cannons and has a strategem that allows him to move in, shoot, charge and get in his attacks, and then literally jump back out of combat again behind to the safety of his big blog of sisters even before I strike back...
So, yeah. extremely hard to kill sisters of battle taking up the middle board. Iron hands shooting, and then 2 dark angel speeder shenanigans ... Not quite sure how to handle this kind of list. Oh, and because he is playing sisters, he has lots of deny the witch attempts and even strategems to deny psychic attacks outright too. So, relying on psychic is extremely iffy against the army.
Yeah... so I am kinda stumped. lol I bring enough heavy shooting to outshoot his heavy shooting and I will lose to objectives and his mid board control. Actually, I am not even sure how to wrest mid board control away from such an army.
A 10 man unit of bezerkers on the charge with chainswords will put out on average about 16 wounds on a T3 3+ save target before adding in rerolls, VotLW, DttFE, or any other buff. This should clear out the sisters squad.
For the DA character, the best bet is a winged demon prince with wings or a chaos lord with a jump pack and thunder hammer can do it too. Either one with warp time should be able to catch the speeder and bring it down.
Both options will take some finesse and dice rolls to help but most tactics in the game do.
10 combibolter slaanesh termis deal out 40 shots at 24". Buff them with prescience, add a chaos lord, hitting on 2s, rerolling 1s, add votlw, and wound those imperial nuns at 2s. If necessary, repeat with endless cacophony. Or go the expensive route with 10 combiplasma termis, no votlw needed, you already wound them on 2s. Or go with RCC havocs, same buff procedure.
Wayniac I totally feel you. I too was cheated by GW choosing BL because of the color scheme (at first legions were just a little perk, nothing game changing, so you could actually choose one out of personal preference, for fun, good times... ) and then turning out to be the weakest of all not even 6 months later. And I too hate to soup. The good news is that actually every other chaos legion now is a solid mid tier by itself!
I would tell you to be strong and keep with BL if it was just a matter of being competitive... But the point is that every other legion now is FUN. Not only are strong, but they all play as they are supposed to! With sinergies and funny stratagem.
And lore wise the BL took warbands from every legion, some of the best fellows of Abaddon are a TS, an IW and an EC... So it makes sense that they bear the BL colors but fight their own way. Just have fun man!
Regarding the Possessed Bomb, strategies based on non targeting seem too theory hammer to me, very cheesy, complicated and boring. Just go with WB, buff them up and double the Damage with just one cp! Be careful on buffers though, it becomes a point sink very quickly.
Eldenfirefly wrote: Playing a friend next week. He plays sisters of battle souped with marines. He gives the sister of battle a order trait that makes their infantry treat ap -1 as AP 0. Then he takes two dialogues (character) which does the same thing in a 6 inch bubble. So, in effect, it makes all his sister of battle infantry treats -2 ap as ap 0. So he has big blog of sister infantry marching up the board which are extremely hard to kill. I never realised CSM, outside of lascannons have very few guns which are ap -3. And its such a waste to shoot lascannons at a big blob of cheap infantry (they get invul save too, from Celestine). And this treat AP -2 as 0 counts against both shooting and melee attacks!
So, I am really not sure how to handle this extremely hard to kill blob of sisters. They are 3+ armour save normally, and 2+ armor save in cover. 2+ armor save on cheap sisters infantry that treats battle cannons, autocannons, flamers, anything ap 2 as ap0 is better than terminators literally.
He also souped in iron hands and dark angels. Don't really need to go into iron hands. But his dark angels character is on a speeder that has twin assault cannons and has a strategem that allows him to move in, shoot, charge and get in his attacks, and then literally jump back out of combat again behind to the safety of his big blog of sisters even before I strike back...
So, yeah. extremely hard to kill sisters of battle taking up the middle board. Iron hands shooting, and then 2 dark angel speeder shenanigans ... Not quite sure how to handle this kind of list. Oh, and because he is playing sisters, he has lots of deny the witch attempts and even strategems to deny psychic attacks outright too. So, relying on psychic is extremely iffy against the army.
Yeah... so I am kinda stumped. lol I bring enough heavy shooting to outshoot his heavy shooting and I will lose to objectives and his mid board control. Actually, I am not even sure how to wrest mid board control away from such an army.
A 10 man unit of bezerkers on the charge with chainswords will put out on average about 16 wounds on a T3 3+ save target before adding in rerolls, VotLW, DttFE, or any other buff. This should clear out the sisters squad.
For the DA character, the best bet is a winged demon prince with wings or a chaos lord with a jump pack and thunder hammer can do it too. Either one with warp time should be able to catch the speeder and bring it down.
Both options will take some finesse and dice rolls to help but most tactics in the game do.
Thanks everyone for the useful suggestions.
And thanks, you are one of the few that gave some suggestions to handle the two Dark angel speeder character shenanigens. I do have to point out though, that warp time can't be relied on. Sisters get a deny the witch roll easily. And they get strategems to deny outright the psychic as well. So, he can try to deny first, then start using strategems to further try and negate warptime. Warptime has very little chance of going off.
It does seem to be one of the only ways though, so I will have to think further about this. Even though I loath to trade a flying demon prince for one of his characters. (Once I jump in, even if I kill it, it will be in the midst of his army and likely to be killed). And of course, the method is by no means a gaurantee to kill either because he will have a 4++ save. So, if he is lucky enough to make all the saves, I would have failed to kill him and sacrificed a flying DP for it. (And he has two of these speedster characters). Even the overwatch suffered charging into such a character is going to be painful.
Hmmm, something to bear in mind. So the deny is definitely not a given to go off. I think he has two separate strategems from sisters, dark angels and iron hands to outright deny a psychic though (but probably on a 4+).
Anyone has good suggestions for a character killer hunter? I know there is the relic chainsword lord, but that requires making him the warlord and he will most likely die after he kills one of the Dark angels speedster heroes. (He might even die to the overwatch from all those assault cannons charging in). DP is good, but expensive for a suicide hero killer. These Dark angel speedster heroes will always be behind his own troop lines, using the hero rule to make them untargetable. And then they jump into my lines, fire all their assault cannons, charge in and kill something, and then use the vigilence ablaze strategem to jump back behind their own lines again before I can even strike back.
DarklyDreaming wrote: Wayniac I totally feel you. I too was cheated by GW choosing BL because of the color scheme (at first legions were just a little perk, nothing game changing, so you could actually choose one out of personal preference, for fun, good times... ) and then turning out to be the weakest of all not even 6 months later. And I too hate to soup. The good news is that actually every other chaos legion now is a solid mid tier by itself!
My Chainlord strongly disagrees with this analysis.
An ALJP stealth lord can be -5 to hit for ranged weapons with clandestine, shadeblade, miasma of pestilence, benediction of darkness, AL legion trait, or -3 to hit in melee. He can also be a sniper with headhunter and vipers bite. The gun is S5 AP-3 D2.
Eldenfirefly wrote: (And since you are running mono black legion, you can consider adding a Norlitih crown too). An Abby gunline is rather static anyway, so it benefits alot from the Crown. Cos the crown gives an ever expanding huge aura of 5++ and makes your psykers better. All your lascannons (be it from vehicles like predator tanks or hacos)) will appreciate the 5++ the crown gives. And so will your troops. A big blob of thirty 5++ cultists that are immune to morale because of Abby and have 5+ FNP because of delightful agonies is pretty resilient and dirt cheap too.
The other thing to realize about the crown: good source of cover and you control where it's placed.
Stick 3 Scorpius' behind it for indirect fire, or put 3 Contemptors behind it to take advantage of the hole in the middle for shooting.
I've learned to love the Crown as part of a Chaos gunline. By the time an opponent could charge, my entire army has a 5+ invulnerable. And I can stick it adjacent to a building to create impassible choke points. It's so frustrating.
And thanks, you are one of the few that gave some suggestions to handle the two Dark angel speeder character shenanigens. I do have to point out though, that warp time can't be relied on. Sisters get a deny the witch roll easily. And they get strategems to deny outright the psychic as well. So, he can try to deny first, then start using strategems to further try and negate warptime. Warptime has very little chance of going off.
It does seem to be one of the only ways though, so I will have to think further about this. Even though I loath to trade a flying demon prince for one of his characters. (Once I jump in, even if I kill it, it will be in the midst of his army and likely to be killed). And of course, the method is by no means a gaurantee to kill either because he will have a 4++ save. So, if he is lucky enough to make all the saves, I would have failed to kill him and sacrificed a flying DP for it. (And he has two of these speedster characters). Even the overwatch suffered charging into such a character is going to be painful.
As pointed out earlier, they can’t stop warp time with their normal squads since the power needs a 7 to go off. They can try to ignore it on a 4+ but that’s not a given. You could try to draw it out with another power first though. You may have to eat one turn of the charges but that should still leave you well within the 12” plus charge of any flying unit. It may be a one way trip but exchanging units can be worth it if it’s an important part of their strategy. For what it’s worth, Sammael is over 200 points so you are coming out ahead with that exchange. A demon prince charging with talons and VotLW has a decent chance of putting him down even with the 4++.
A cheaper alternative is a jump lord with the murder sword. The murder sword deals a mortal wound against a model you choose for every hit you get. You’ll get 5 attacks on the charge that hit on rerolling 2s and immediately cause a wound. DTTFE can generate more attacks. If you keep a bolt pistol on him he can use the demon shells stratagem to deal another d3 mortal wounds. Diabolic strength or prescience makes him even better. This route is cheaper but a little riskier.
From the sound of it though, they’re using a specialist detachment and should have to pay 1CP to even access the strategem, which costs two. Denying your power requires anywhere from 1 to 2 CP. He should be hemorrhaging CP to keep this working. Alpha Legion can access a relic to make stratagems cost an extra CP for one round. He also looses out on his super doctrine for the SM forces since they’re souped in.
And thanks, you are one of the few that gave some suggestions to handle the two Dark angel speeder character shenanigens. I do have to point out though, that warp time can't be relied on. Sisters get a deny the witch roll easily. And they get strategems to deny outright the psychic as well. So, he can try to deny first, then start using strategems to further try and negate warptime. Warptime has very little chance of going off.
It does seem to be one of the only ways though, so I will have to think further about this. Even though I loath to trade a flying demon prince for one of his characters. (Once I jump in, even if I kill it, it will be in the midst of his army and likely to be killed). And of course, the method is by no means a gaurantee to kill either because he will have a 4++ save. So, if he is lucky enough to make all the saves, I would have failed to kill him and sacrificed a flying DP for it. (And he has two of these speedster characters). Even the overwatch suffered charging into such a character is going to be painful.
No offense, but you may be making this more complicated than it needs to be.
Order of the Valorous Heart allows you to ignore AP-1. That means they still need to make a 3+ save. The Imagifier allows them to ignore AP-2. They still need to make a 3+ save. If they are behind cover, it's a little tougher, but it's not impossible to chew through them with ordinary shooting and melee. You don't need too many fancy guns, you just need much guns.
Chaincannons could help. If you really want to screw with Sisters, take Scorpius Whirlwinds from the Forgeworld Index. Indirect fire, tons of shots, regenerates wounds, deletes units. Weapons are AP-2, just aim it at anything not standing near an Imagifier.
The Dark Angels characters - I really don't play them often so I can't speak to whatever is needed to destroy them, but DPs don't go down easy under the best of circumstances. If you can't buff him, take a relic so your opponent can't deny. This sounds like a job for the Axe of Blind Fury.
And thanks, you are one of the few that gave some suggestions to handle the two Dark angel speeder character shenanigens. I do have to point out though, that warp time can't be relied on. Sisters get a deny the witch roll easily. And they get strategems to deny outright the psychic as well. So, he can try to deny first, then start using strategems to further try and negate warptime. Warptime has very little chance of going off.
It does seem to be one of the only ways though, so I will have to think further about this. Even though I loath to trade a flying demon prince for one of his characters. (Once I jump in, even if I kill it, it will be in the midst of his army and likely to be killed). And of course, the method is by no means a gaurantee to kill either because he will have a 4++ save. So, if he is lucky enough to make all the saves, I would have failed to kill him and sacrificed a flying DP for it. (And he has two of these speedster characters). Even the overwatch suffered charging into such a character is going to be painful.
No offense, but you may be making this more complicated than it needs to be.
Order of the Valorous Heart allows you to ignore AP-1. That means they still need to make a 3+ save. The Imagifier allows them to ignore AP-2. They still need to make a 3+ save. If they are behind cover, it's a little tougher, but it's not impossible to chew through them with ordinary shooting and melee. You don't need too many fancy guns, you just need much guns.
Chaincannons could help. If you really want to screw with Sisters, take Scorpius Whirlwinds from the Forgeworld Index. Indirect fire, tons of shots, regenerates wounds, deletes units. Weapons are AP-2, just aim it at anything not standing near an Imagifier.
The Dark Angels characters - I really don't play them often so I can't speak to whatever is needed to destroy them, but DPs don't go down easy under the best of circumstances. If you can't buff him, take a relic so your opponent can't deny. This sounds like a job for the Axe of Blind Fury.
Yeah sisters still die to mass bolter fire easy. Take bikes or terminators or snipe out the imagifier with psychic or sniper lord. Either way they are still only t3 3+.
small_gods wrote: Yeah sisters still die to mass bolter fire easy. Take bikes or terminators or snipe out the imagifier with psychic or sniper lord. Either way they are still only t3 3+.
I don't have a high opinion of Sisters to begin with, their gimmicks get too much attention. They're a mid-range army that is heavily reliant on buffs and special characters to do anything.
I've played 3 games vs the new Codex and dominated them each time. With my Daemon Primarch list, Mortarion and Magnus survived all game. The Primarchs were eating SOB squads while the Sicaran blew up their tanks and Plaguebearers spread out over all objectives. With my Black Legion gunline, the first time vs Sisters, it took my opponent 3 turns to get close enough to shoot. Meanwhile, I had 3 Scorpius Whirlwinds and 16+ lascannons bearing down on them. Abaddon and a Daemon Prince smacked down all of their HQs in a single turn.
Dark Eldar, Imperial Knights and NuMarines are a threat in this meta. Sisters are not the same.
Been trying to find a way to fit my favourite 20 man noise marine bomb into an emperor's children list, any idea on how to keep them alive or tactical advice in general?
I'm in a intercessor heavy meta and need the +1 St & Dg strat so no alpha legion conceal unfortunately, could the EC redeploy strat work in some way i'm too stupid to think of?
I'm also open to 10-man squads all redeploying but staying in the dark apostle re-roll wounds bubble if you think this is viable?
small_gods wrote: Yeah sisters still die to mass bolter fire easy. Take bikes or terminators or snipe out the imagifier with psychic or sniper lord. Either way they are still only t3 3+.
I don't have a high opinion of Sisters to begin with, their gimmicks get too much attention. They're a mid-range army that is heavily reliant on buffs and special characters to do anything.
I've played 3 games vs the new Codex and dominated them each time. With my Daemon Primarch list, Mortarion and Magnus survived all game. The Primarchs were eating SOB squads while the Sicaran blew up their tanks and Plaguebearers spread out over all objectives. With my Black Legion gunline, the first time vs Sisters, it took my opponent 3 turns to get close enough to shoot. Meanwhile, I had 3 Scorpius Whirlwinds and 16+ lascannons bearing down on them. Abaddon and a Daemon Prince smacked down all of their HQs in a single turn.
Dark Eldar, Imperial Knights and NuMarines are a threat in this meta. Sisters are not the same.
Yeah it's Orks and space wolves all over again. I think tau are going to come up big too. They've always been good but using some of their new stuff makes mincemeat of numarines.
Has anyone used cult marines to any noticeable effect in the legions that they are not automatically associated with (TS, WE, DG, EC)? I was thinking of putting some berserkers, PM, and rubrics in Iron Warriors and Word Bearers armies.
ArcaneHorror wrote: Has anyone used cult marines to any noticeable effect in the legions that they are not automatically associated with (TS, WE, DG, EC)? I was thinking of putting some berserkers, PM, and rubrics in Iron Warriors and Word Bearers armies.
Al loves them,
PM for durability, rubrics for shenanigans, berzerkers absolutely love the movement shenanigans.
Noisemarines really need their legion specific buffs.
NL can Setup a decent one two combo i guess.
WB prefer possessed over any cultmarine
IW prefer cult of destruction Units.
Renegades, cue red corsairs, Like berzerkers for obvious reasons.
DarklyDreaming wrote: Wayniac I totally feel you. I too was cheated by GW choosing BL because of the color scheme (at first legions were just a little perk, nothing game changing, so you could actually choose one out of personal preference, for fun, good times... ) and then turning out to be the weakest of all not even 6 months later. And I too hate to soup. The good news is that actually every other chaos legion now is a solid mid tier by itself!
My Chainlord strongly disagrees with this analysis.
My Indomitable Discolord with Sightless Helm as well.
Anyway, a paintjob won't stop you from playing another legion if you feel like it. And if you do feel bad about it: remember that the Black Legion is a loose alliance of CSM from every Traitor Legion out there. It makes perfect fluff sense to play a Black Legion warband that traces back it's origins to the Iron Warriors with Iron Warriors rules.
DarklyDreaming wrote: Wayniac I totally feel you. I too was cheated by GW choosing BL because of the color scheme (at first legions were just a little perk, nothing game changing, so you could actually choose one out of personal preference, for fun, good times... ) and then turning out to be the weakest of all not even 6 months later. And I too hate to soup. The good news is that actually every other chaos legion now is a solid mid tier by itself!
My Chainlord strongly disagrees with this analysis.
My Indomitable Discolord with Sightless Helm as well.
Anyway, a paintjob won't stop you from playing another legion if you feel like it. And if you do feel bad about it: remember that the Black Legion is a loose alliance of CSM from every Traitor Legion out there. It makes perfect fluff sense to play a Black Legion warband that traces back it's origins to the Iron Warriors with Iron Warriors rules.
But if you want to use Night Lords rules you. Must. Paint. The lightning.
It's like getting jumped into a gang. No pain. No gain.
orangebrushminiatures wrote: Been trying to find a way to fit my favourite 20 man noise marine bomb into an emperor's children list, any idea on how to keep them alive or tactical advice in general?
I'm in a intercessor heavy meta and need the +1 St & Dg strat so no alpha legion conceal unfortunately, could the EC redeploy strat work in some way i'm too stupid to think of?
I'm also open to 10-man squads all redeploying but staying in the dark apostle re-roll wounds bubble if you think this is viable?
Noise Marine bombs, in general, scare me. Too fragile and very tempting target.
Tactical Perfection only allows you to redeploy as per the mission rules. There's no way to infiltrate using it. The best thing you can hope for is to conceal the unit behind a building or get some cover.
Got a bit of a concept to test, after my little experiment wiht the noctilith (didn't go badly actually, noctilith + cultists = amusingly good, BUT,Remembered there is that one prayer that also grants you an 5++)
Which is what triggered this, for a small scale escalation league.
Spoiler:
AL Battalion:
Dark apostle, (ilusion prayer) Cultleader.
Sorcerer, Prescience, excess (5+++ spell from slaanesh) Head hunter or Master of diversion + CB relic.
Troops:
2 x 10 Cultists with stubber.
1 x 30 Cultists with 3 stubbers.
5 Havocs 4 AC and PG.
Clocks in at around 493 pts.
As a concept, the army is fairly mobile and durable with stratagems.
Tide of traitors is in essence another 100 ish points.
Renascent infiltration , conceal, etc make for a descent utility base.
Cacophony and Votwl can make the havocs or the blob of cultists dangerous. (cult leader )
Not Online!!! wrote: Got a bit of a concept to test, after my little experiment wiht the noctilith (didn't go badly actually, noctilith + cultists = amusingly good, BUT,Remembered there is that one prayer that also grants you an 5++)
Which is what triggered this, for a small scale escalation league.
Spoiler:
AL Battalion:
Dark apostle, (ilusion prayer) Cultleader.
Sorcerer, Prescience, excess (5+++ spell from slaanesh) Head hunter or Master of diversion + CB relic.
Troops:
2 x 10 Cultists with stubber.
1 x 30 Cultists with 3 stubbers.
5 Havocs 4 AC and PG.
Clocks in at around 493 pts.
As a concept, the army is fairly mobile and durable with stratagems.
Tide of traitors is in essence another 100 ish points.
Renascent infiltration , conceal, etc make for a descent utility base.
Cacophony and Votwl can make the havocs or the blob of cultists dangerous. (cult leader )
I like it, think it could scale up well with more cultists, hancocks and even predators could find a place (you'd probably need 2-3 crowns though).
So i've recently started delving more into chaos to have more variety than with my pure thousand sons.
I've had lots of fun playing tzeentch demons (flamers for life) and even more recently started playing a slaanesh demon supreme command (Contorted epitome for life)
Now i've got in in my mind to actually start a small Night lords list because i like the converting options with them and all the tricks faith and fury gave them. Ive got some warp talons + smash lord but i feel like i'm missing some punch in combat. What are good melee units that would benefit from warp talons giving them safe charges?
Right now i've tried this for a NL detachment :
Chaos lord with jetpack + hammer
2 butcher cannon contemptors
10 warp talons
5 termies with power axes
VladimirHerzog wrote: So i've recently started delving more into chaos to have more variety than with my pure thousand sons.
I've had lots of fun playing tzeentch demons (flamers for life) and even more recently started playing a slaanesh demon supreme command (Contorted epitome for life)
Now i've got in in my mind to actually start a small Night lords list because i like the converting options with them and all the tricks faith and fury gave them. Ive got some warp talons + smash lord but i feel like i'm missing some punch in combat. What are good melee units that would benefit from warp talons giving them safe charges?
Right now i've tried this for a NL detachment :
Chaos lord with jetpack + hammer
2 butcher cannon contemptors
10 warp talons
5 termies with power axes
Bloodletters are a great choice to mix in with warptalons. Take units of 20 with banner, you get to deepstrike for 1 cp and still hit on 2+. Other than that cam have some great daemon prince/lord discordant beatsticks but they don't care as much about overwatch.
VladimirHerzog wrote: So i've recently started delving more into chaos to have more variety than with my pure thousand sons.
I've had lots of fun playing tzeentch demons (flamers for life) and even more recently started playing a slaanesh demon supreme command (Contorted epitome for life)
Now i've got in in my mind to actually start a small Night lords list because i like the converting options with them and all the tricks faith and fury gave them. Ive got some warp talons + smash lord but i feel like i'm missing some punch in combat. What are good melee units that would benefit from warp talons giving them safe charges?
Right now i've tried this for a NL detachment :
Chaos lord with jetpack + hammer
2 butcher cannon contemptors
10 warp talons
5 termies with power axes
Bloodletters are a great choice to mix in with warptalons. Take units of 20 with banner, you get to deepstrike for 1 cp and still hit on 2+. Other than that cam have some great daemon prince/lord discordant beatsticks but they don't care as much about overwatch.
yeah bloodletters are great, anything similar in actual CSM? berzerkers in rhinos maybe?
VladimirHerzog wrote: So i've recently started delving more into chaos to have more variety than with my pure thousand sons.
I've had lots of fun playing tzeentch demons (flamers for life) and even more recently started playing a slaanesh demon supreme command (Contorted epitome for life)
Now i've got in in my mind to actually start a small Night lords list because i like the converting options with them and all the tricks faith and fury gave them. Ive got some warp talons + smash lord but i feel like i'm missing some punch in combat. What are good melee units that would benefit from warp talons giving them safe charges?
Right now i've tried this for a NL detachment :
Chaos lord with jetpack + hammer
2 butcher cannon contemptors
10 warp talons
5 termies with power axes
Bloodletters are a great choice to mix in with warptalons. Take units of 20 with banner, you get to deepstrike for 1 cp and still hit on 2+. Other than that cam have some great daemon prince/lord discordant beatsticks but they don't care as much about overwatch.
yeah bloodletters are great, anything similar in actual CSM? berzerkers in rhinos maybe?
Bezerkers are great but squishy, plus there's a rhino tax and good players can screen them out well. Possessed are great but work best with AL conceal strat, master of possession and dark apostle. You could run them as night lords at a pinch though and combine them with some daemon auras (slanesh and nurgle being my favorites).
What do you guys think about Havocs? I'm thinking of dropping them for more oblits or terminators. They don't really seem to do much to warrant their high point cost and the return on killing their fragile bodies is pretty big. 5 more points gets 5x chainaxe combi plasma terminators who can melee, deepstrike and put out 10 plasma shots on top of being more durable.
Ahriman [7 PL, 131pts]: Death Hex, Gift of Chaos, Warptime
Daemon Prince of Tzeentch [9 PL, 195pts]: Arcane Focus, Devastating Sorcery, Infernal Gaze, Malefic talon, Tzeentch's Firestorm, Warlord, Wings
Daemon Prince of Tzeentch [9 PL, 195pts]: Gaze of Fate, Infernal Gateway, Malefic talon, Wings
++ Total: [116 PL, -2CP, 1,994pts] ++
the idea is simple anything sprint forward, drake and bikes try to engage 1st turn and use Vox Scream and we have come for you, not sure if worth use a SL demons detachement ,or use a more resilient nurgle detachment with nurglings and poxbringers, maybe double dragon?
Tibs Ironblood wrote: What do you guys think about Havocs? I'm thinking of dropping them for more oblits or terminators. They don't really seem to do much to warrant their high point cost and the return on killing their fragile bodies is pretty big. 5 more points gets 5x chainaxe combi plasma terminators who can melee, deepstrike and put out 10 plasma shots on top of being more durable.
I'm trying out Alpha Legion Havocs, maybe backed up by a Crown. We'll see how it goes.
orangebrushminiatures wrote: Been trying to find a way to fit my favourite 20 man noise marine bomb into an emperor's children list, any idea on how to keep them alive or tactical advice in general?
I'm in a intercessor heavy meta and need the +1 St & Dg strat so no alpha legion conceal unfortunately, could the EC redeploy strat work in some way i'm too stupid to think of?
I'm also open to 10-man squads all redeploying but staying in the dark apostle re-roll wounds bubble if you think this is viable?
I’m working towards deploying twenty in a Kharybdis. Hit it with -1 prayer, deploy with a crown. Non deteriorating movement means that as long as it survives t1, it’s getting Warptimed into my opponent’s FACE whilst the inhabitants steal 3” from the disembarkation.
ArcaneHorror wrote: Has anyone used cult marines to any noticeable effect in the legions that they are not automatically associated with (TS, WE, DG, EC)? I was thinking of putting some berserkers, PM, and rubrics in Iron Warriors and Word Bearers armies.
Al loves them,
PM for durability, rubrics for shenanigans, berzerkers absolutely love the movement shenanigans.
Noisemarines really need their legion specific buffs.
NL can Setup a decent one two combo i guess.
WB prefer possessed over any cultmarine
IW prefer cult of destruction Units.
Renegades, cue red corsairs, Like berzerkers for obvious reasons.
I do like NMs and Zerks with my Word Bearers. Being able to force-cast a spell opens some interesting combos. But yeah, the opportunity cost is not taking Possessed, who benefit from that quirk far more on account of DAEMON.
The various things that enable you to embargos fall back are interesting. If you can set it up right, a Berzerker tarpit is terrifying.
Not Online!!! wrote: Got a bit of a concept to test, after my little experiment wiht the noctilith (didn't go badly actually, noctilith + cultists = amusingly good, BUT,Remembered there is that one prayer that also grants you an 5++)
Which is what triggered this, for a small scale escalation league.
Spoiler:
AL Battalion:
Dark apostle, (ilusion prayer) Cultleader.
Sorcerer, Prescience, excess (5+++ spell from slaanesh) Head hunter or Master of diversion + CB relic.
Troops:
2 x 10 Cultists with stubber.
1 x 30 Cultists with 3 stubbers.
5 Havocs 4 AC and PG.
Clocks in at around 493 pts.
As a concept, the army is fairly mobile and durable with stratagems.
Tide of traitors is in essence another 100 ish points.
Renascent infiltration , conceal, etc make for a descent utility base.
Cacophony and Votwl can make the havocs or the blob of cultists dangerous. (cult leader )
I like it, think it could scale up well with more cultists, hancocks and even predators could find a place (you'd probably need 2-3 crowns though).
I still prefer R&H units for the noctilith crown use.
However if i would use it in the same style list with 2 crowns 12" from board sides, with this you allready cover most of your deployment zone by turn 2.
I'd also lower the max squad down to 10 man squads. ( probably 6 x 10 cultists with stubbers, 2 DA's with atleast one cultleader at that stage i'd also use master of diversion. I'd also use a lord and sorcerer for the full 2 battalions. Probably also invest in the full 3x AC Havocs.) Also, +1 to hit prayer instead. Predators might work, altough i am at a point were i regard the dakkafiend as a superior option, that said, due to the 5++ bubble i could imagine some Vindicators for that. Bikers actually would become hillarious in such a list. -1 to hit, t5 multiple wounds, allways on bolter discipline and now a 5++ aswell as mobility option.
In general i feel like such a build with a skeleton core of cultists, 2 noctiliths, would make a horde list with heavy firesupport quite possible. in a 1000 pts list, i'd honestly add in 2 crowns, another Da a lord ofcourse as above and then a vindicator or 2.
Is it good enough for a new archetype, i dobut it, but maybee, considering i also made surprising experiences with my test runs so it might actually be decent enough curveball for a semi comp meta.
Automatically Appended Next Post: in lieu of the Sm nerf.
MAybee need to adapt my sig, again
Just found out about the SM nerf. Read it and thought: this doesn't hurt any of the armies I've played against. If anything, it helps them against Chaos.
When I'm playing Daemon Primarchs, I would much rather have Devastator doctrine up than Tactical. Now they are forced to switch turn 2, that's a net benefit. Same with Chaos gunlines, most things that would benefit from Devastator are dead by turn 2.
Same with Intercessors tanking wounds for vehicles. We have a lot of D2+ weapons, it's actually worse for us to have more Intercessors on the board because anything over 2W wasted damage.
The Dreadnought Stratagem, yeah, that's a nerf, but did anyone expect unwoundable dreadnoughts to survive a FAQ? Or infiltrating Centurions? Have not faced either but those would have been tempting for anyone to do away with.
techsoldaten wrote: Just found out about the SM nerf. Read it and thought: this doesn't hurt any of the armies I've played against. If anything, it helps them against Chaos.
When I'm playing Daemon Primarchs, I would much rather have Devastator doctrine up than Tactical. Now they are forced to switch turn 2, that's a net benefit. Same with Chaos gunlines, most things that would benefit from Devastator are dead by turn 2.
Same with Intercessors tanking wounds for vehicles. We have a lot of D2+ weapons, it's actually worse for us to have more Intercessors on the board because anything over 2W wasted damage.
The Dreadnought Stratagem, yeah, that's a nerf, but did anyone expect unwoundable dreadnoughts to survive a FAQ? Or infiltrating Centurions? Have not faced either but those would have been tempting for anyone to do away with.
I guess, in a way it forces them to vomit more AP-1 bolt shells down at us. So yes in a way. Otoh, vehicle based lists do proft a tad from that. (if your vehicles survive that is)
What is for sure it certainly hits only IH and IF.
As for the RG shenanigans, yes but so long a dread can still do that i find the argumentation give questionable.
Has anyone here used the new Brazen Beasts rules in their army? I was thinking of putting a detachment of them alongside my Iron Warriors for some heavy-hitting berzerkers and spicy daemon engines. Their warlord trait sounds good but potentially risky to activate. Putting my disco lord and venomcrawler in there in a soulforged pack alonside the use of the blasphemous machines and daemonforge stratagems.
techsoldaten wrote: Just found out about the SM nerf. Read it and thought: this doesn't hurt any of the armies I've played against. If anything, it helps them against Chaos.
When I'm playing Daemon Primarchs, I would much rather have Devastator doctrine up than Tactical. Now they are forced to switch turn 2, that's a net benefit. Same with Chaos gunlines, most things that would benefit from Devastator are dead by turn 2.
Same with Intercessors tanking wounds for vehicles. We have a lot of D2+ weapons, it's actually worse for us to have more Intercessors on the board because anything over 2W wasted damage.
The Dreadnought Stratagem, yeah, that's a nerf, but did anyone expect unwoundable dreadnoughts to survive a FAQ? Or infiltrating Centurions? Have not faced either but those would have been tempting for anyone to do away with.
I guess, in a way it forces them to vomit more AP-1 bolt shells down at us. So yes in a way. Otoh, vehicle based lists do proft a tad from that. (if your vehicles survive that is)
What is for sure it certainly hits only IH and IF.
As for the RG shenanigans, yes but so long a dread can still do that i find the argumentation give questionable.
Super sneaky ninja 15 foot tall killer mech suits is just as logical as eliminators curving bullets. That said infiltrating said mech suits usually just gives my contemptor something to shred in turn one. I'm more annoyed that now rg will just switch from centurions to aggressors.
ArcaneHorror wrote: Has anyone here used the new Brazen Beasts rules in their army? I was thinking of putting a detachment of them alongside my Iron Warriors for some heavy-hitting berzerkers and spicy daemon engines. Their warlord trait sounds good but potentially risky to activate. Putting my disco lord and venomcrawler in there in a soulforged pack alonside the use of the blasphemous machines and daemonforge stratagems.
Brazen beasts are fun, until you realize they are all khorne and no sorcerer allowed. (imo the renegades should've been mark free but that would've probably opened up alot of cheese, btw why don't we get custom warband / legion splinters?)
personally, brazen beast khorne berzerkers would be quite decent at tank hunting what with their AP-4 on 6's. The main issue will be delivery and screening, and whilest screening you can easily remove via fire from chaff you still need to get the berzerkers into melee, which the following all do better.
Spoiler:
WE, AL, RC.
WE and AL via stratagems, RC via their trait which is probably the best we can offer for an assault based army, considering we rarely have an issue wounding and killing stuff in melee but getting there is the big problem.
Which brings me back to the no sorcerer affecting them.
That said i'd also assume that you are indeed CP hungry so i'd imagine 15 CSM and 2 sorcerers with warptime and prescience in a RC detachment might actually work in your favour.
I'd then also field a brazen beast battalion with cultists and 2 Lord discordants (better three as someone that runs the srtictly more survivable al version you'd be better off with three allways sadly).
I'd still put the Khorne berzerkers into the RC detachment, simply for the even further increasable threat range (warptime + advance + charge makes for even more reach and potentially allows you to melee turn 1)
But approximately that would put you into the realm of:
320 pts for 2 Brazen beast lord discordants.
120 pts for cultists,
i'd assume 3 venomcrawlers for 345 pts
then i'd imagine that you'd want to field some IW shenanigans.
i still reccomend a sorcerer or 2 for warptimeing..
atleast another battalion worht in cultists ( cannonfodder might come in handy.)
The warlord trait is clearly superior for IW then for BB so don't bother with theirs.
Field commander might be worth it for the increased range.
techsoldaten wrote: Just found out about the SM nerf. Read it and thought: this doesn't hurt any of the armies I've played against. If anything, it helps them against Chaos.
When I'm playing Daemon Primarchs, I would much rather have Devastator doctrine up than Tactical. Now they are forced to switch turn 2, that's a net benefit. Same with Chaos gunlines, most things that would benefit from Devastator are dead by turn 2.
Same with Intercessors tanking wounds for vehicles. We have a lot of D2+ weapons, it's actually worse for us to have more Intercessors on the board because anything over 2W wasted damage.
The Dreadnought Stratagem, yeah, that's a nerf, but did anyone expect unwoundable dreadnoughts to survive a FAQ? Or infiltrating Centurions? Have not faced either but those would have been tempting for anyone to do away with.
I guess, in a way it forces them to vomit more AP-1 bolt shells down at us. So yes in a way. Otoh, vehicle based lists do proft a tad from that. (if your vehicles survive that is)
What is for sure it certainly hits only IH and IF.
As for the RG shenanigans, yes but so long a dread can still do that i find the argumentation give questionable.
Definitely stings the IH that have been a plague on my local scene, plus even ultramarines and raven guard only get there super doctrine for 2 turns. Plus I've played against ravenguard assault centurions, the less of them the better!
techsoldaten wrote: Just found out about the SM nerf. Read it and thought: this doesn't hurt any of the armies I've played against. If anything, it helps them against Chaos.
When I'm playing Daemon Primarchs, I would much rather have Devastator doctrine up than Tactical. Now they are forced to switch turn 2, that's a net benefit. Same with Chaos gunlines, most things that would benefit from Devastator are dead by turn 2.
Same with Intercessors tanking wounds for vehicles. We have a lot of D2+ weapons, it's actually worse for us to have more Intercessors on the board because anything over 2W wasted damage.
The Dreadnought Stratagem, yeah, that's a nerf, but did anyone expect unwoundable dreadnoughts to survive a FAQ? Or infiltrating Centurions? Have not faced either but those would have been tempting for anyone to do away with.
I guess, in a way it forces them to vomit more AP-1 bolt shells down at us. So yes in a way. Otoh, vehicle based lists do proft a tad from that. (if your vehicles survive that is)
What is for sure it certainly hits only IH and IF.
As for the RG shenanigans, yes but so long a dread can still do that i find the argumentation give questionable.
Definitely stings the IH that have been a plague on my local scene, plus even ultramarines and raven guard only get there super doctrine for 2 turns. Plus I've played against ravenguard assault centurions, the less of them the better!
Tbh, i am more annoyed that gw even released them in this state.
It's 7th all over again.
Probably dumb question but if you roll the dreaded one with a daemon weapon, can you still use the weapon it replaces (like a power sword) or do you literally have to fight with your basic melee weapon ie S User, AP dash etc?
techsoldaten wrote: Just found out about the SM nerf. Read it and thought: this doesn't hurt any of the armies I've played against. If anything, it helps them against Chaos.
When I'm playing Daemon Primarchs, I would much rather have Devastator doctrine up than Tactical. Now they are forced to switch turn 2, that's a net benefit. Same with Chaos gunlines, most things that would benefit from Devastator are dead by turn 2.
Same with Intercessors tanking wounds for vehicles. We have a lot of D2+ weapons, it's actually worse for us to have more Intercessors on the board because anything over 2W wasted damage.
The Dreadnought Stratagem, yeah, that's a nerf, but did anyone expect unwoundable dreadnoughts to survive a FAQ? Or infiltrating Centurions? Have not faced either but those would have been tempting for anyone to do away with.
I guess, in a way it forces them to vomit more AP-1 bolt shells down at us. So yes in a way. Otoh, vehicle based lists do proft a tad from that. (if your vehicles survive that is)
What is for sure it certainly hits only IH and IF.
As for the RG shenanigans, yes but so long a dread can still do that i find the argumentation give questionable.
Definitely stings the IH that have been a plague on my local scene, plus even ultramarines and raven guard only get there super doctrine for 2 turns. Plus I've played against ravenguard assault centurions, the less of them the better!
Tbh, i am more annoyed that gw even released them in this state.
It's 7th all over again.
They were in a real state before the codex, maybe one of the worse preforming armies (except GK and Necrons) but they went from wanting to make them competitive to making them stronger than all other armies and really easy to play. It requires 0 skill to man a IH gunline or plane list but to best them you need to be really skilled and get decent rolls.
It's the problem when you have finances and rules intertwined. In an ideal world there's be an independent rules/balance agency.
Eldarain wrote: Which baffles me as you'd think not having so many units/armies spending years in garbage tier would increase profits.
Considering this and my personal experience, i'd have to agree. Especially newer players that don't have multiple armies, can't switch around to a better supported faction easily.
For me, i now have literally stopped buying anything for my Renegades, becuase there is nigh 0 point to do so.
Their uneven release practices also lead to a loss of maintinaing a custommer base, and a focus on allready successfull lines. In a way they create their own desinvestment cycles. Some factions atleast got the rules support to maintain a playerbase, (however the recent "improvements" to the Eldar line sure as hell is a sign of things to come) the sad part though is, that many factions theorethically are beloved but just didn't recive the love they were due imo, considering how GW was surprised at the"Demand" for SoB should show their failure at grasping what the hobby is about. Further the consolidation to few factions sure as hell isn't beneficial for the overall interest in the game long term, if i wanted to justfight Spikey marines vs Marines then id' have played 30k which has even a better ruleset for this...... as for the pricees One can only imagine what this means for future updates, like IG f.e.. Which is incidentally also why i am not eally looking forward to a potential GW dex with units for traitor guard. And i can't even imagine what aussies would think about it.
ArcaneHorror wrote: Has anyone here used the new Brazen Beasts rules in their army? I was thinking of putting a detachment of them alongside my Iron Warriors for some heavy-hitting berzerkers and spicy daemon engines. Their warlord trait sounds good but potentially risky to activate. Putting my disco lord and venomcrawler in there in a soulforged pack alonside the use of the blasphemous machines and daemonforge stratagems.
Brazen beasts are fun, until you realize they are all khorne and no sorcerer allowed. (imo the renegades should've been mark free but that would've probably opened up alot of cheese, btw why don't we get custom warband / legion splinters?)
personally, brazen beast khorne berzerkers would be quite decent at tank hunting what with their AP-4 on 6's. The main issue will be delivery and screening, and whilest screening you can easily remove via fire from chaff you still need to get the berzerkers into melee, which the following all do better.
Spoiler:
WE, AL, RC.
WE and AL via stratagems, RC via their trait which is probably the best we can offer for an assault based army, considering we rarely have an issue wounding and killing stuff in melee but getting there is the big problem.
Which brings me back to the no sorcerer affecting them.
That said i'd also assume that you are indeed CP hungry so i'd imagine 15 CSM and 2 sorcerers with warptime and prescience in a RC detachment might actually work in your favour.
I'd then also field a brazen beast battalion with cultists and 2 Lord discordants (better three as someone that runs the srtictly more survivable al version you'd be better off with three allways sadly).
I'd still put the Khorne berzerkers into the RC detachment, simply for the even further increasable threat range (warptime + advance + charge makes for even more reach and potentially allows you to melee turn 1)
But approximately that would put you into the realm of:
320 pts for 2 Brazen beast lord discordants.
120 pts for cultists,
i'd assume 3 venomcrawlers for 345 pts
then i'd imagine that you'd want to field some IW shenanigans.
i still reccomend a sorcerer or 2 for warptimeing..
atleast another battalion worht in cultists ( cannonfodder might come in handy.)
The warlord trait is clearly superior for IW then for BB so don't bother with theirs.
Field commander might be worth it for the increased range.
I might try that. Again, daemonforge just looks too good to not at least try. Daemon Princes do well with the Iron Warriors traits and can be extremely durable due to the relics insidium or fleshmetal exoskeleton, combined with the warlord trait Iron Without and the mark of Nurgle, which gives them access to grandfather's blessings and miasma of pestilence. Obliterators are also good with them due to ignoring cover.
I know that CSM characters with a specific mark can only summon daemons with that mark. I was thinking of using an undivided MOP to summon Khorne daemons, and while I'm pretty sure that that specifically is legal, is it allowed for me to use a Nurgle-marked venomcrawler to boost that unit's summoning role and still get Khorne daemons?
So I'm sure others have noticed this, but I'm surprised no one seems to talk about the serious weakness with the Alpha Legion Conceal strat. Specifically, that it's vulnerable to "rhino sniping" and the like.
The strat reads, verbatim, underline for emphasis
Use this strategem at the start of the opponent's shooting phase. Select one ALPHA LEGION INFANTRY unit from your army. Until the end of the phase, enemy models can only target that unit if it is the closest visible target
Reason I bring it up is I've seen a lot of local players get confused, thinking you can hide a unit out of line of sight that is closer to prevent the concealed unit from being shot, or just in general assuming it follows the character rules as far as sniper abilities go. RAW, long as it's the closest thing you can see, it's a legal target. So for example, if I want to shoot the possessed bomb, all I need to do is finagle my shooting unit so a building blocks Los to the screen or something. Not so easy if you have cultists or something screened across the front. Pretty easy if all you have is a lord discordant with the -4 to hit or whatever.
Interesting quirk is that it also means artillery cannot target them for any reason if they can't see them, so that's fun. Just stuff to think about, primarily for new players since I'm sure a lot of the most competitive guys already noticed this.
ArcaneHorror wrote: I know that CSM characters with a specific mark can only summon daemons with that mark. I was thinking of using an undivided MOP to summon Khorne daemons, and while I'm pretty sure that that specifically is legal, is it allowed for me to use a Nurgle-marked venomcrawler to boost that unit's summoning role and still get Khorne daemons?
Nope, just needs to be off the same <Legion> according to it's rules. Not same mark. Also they are literally slave vessels used by warpsmiths and MoP's as oversized batteries itself beeing a chained daemon fo some good may influence some of it's behaviour but not the core point of the machine, aka beeing an oversized battery.
So yes you can. One thing i allways wondered though, is the effect cumulative, as in if i stand around 3 do i get + 3 to my role?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
MrMoustaffa wrote: So I'm sure others have noticed this, but I'm surprised no one seems to talk about the serious weakness with the Alpha Legion Conceal strat. Specifically, that it's vulnerable to "rhino sniping" and the like.
The strat reads, verbatim, underline for emphasis
Use this strategem at the start of the opponent's shooting phase. Select one ALPHA LEGION INFANTRY unit from your army. Until the end of the phase, enemy models can only target that unit if it is the closest visible target
Reason I bring it up is I've seen a lot of local players get confused, thinking you can hide a unit out of line of sight that is closer to prevent the concealed unit from being shot, or just in general assuming it follows the character rules as far as sniper abilities go. RAW, long as it's the closest thing you can see, it's a legal target. So for example, if I want to shoot the possessed bomb, all I need to do is finagle my shooting unit so a building blocks Los to the screen or something. Not so easy if you have cultists or something screened across the front. Pretty easy if all you have is a lord discordant with the -4 to hit or whatever.
Interesting quirk is that it also means artillery cannot target them for any reason if they can't see them, so that's fun. Just stuff to think about, primarily for new players since I'm sure a lot of the most competitive guys already noticed this.
I guess it was to deny magic box interactions and therefore got preemptively curbed before the issue would arrise. As for the arty. there is only one type of it run atm and i don't mind it beeing hardcountered by the strat (TFC ) because that thing is seriously underpriced for what it does, especially comparatively to any other arty type in the game, (regardless if GW or FW)
the second part is, we don'r really see a lot of Rhinos anymore and finangeling the unit to not see the "predesignated" target unit is therefore more reliant on terrain which is a lot more difficult to exploit that way i guess.
So yes you can. One thing i allways wondered though, is the effect cumulative, as in if i stand around 3 do i get + 3 to my role?
And i wonder if you ever start reading the FAQs.
Q: Lots of aura abilities say they grant an ability to nearby
units that are within range of any such models. Are the bonuses
cumulative (i.e. if I am within range of two models with identical
aura abilities, is the bonus doubled)?
A: Unless stated otherwise, no. The bonus for such an
ability applies once if any (i.e. one or more) of these
models are within range.
This is from the first rulebook update, released more than 24 (!) month ago. FAQs are mandatory, just like the core rules.
MrMoustaffa wrote: So I'm sure others have noticed this, but I'm surprised no one seems to talk about the serious weakness with the Alpha Legion Conceal strat. Specifically, that it's vulnerable to "rhino sniping" and the like.
The strat reads, verbatim, underline for emphasis
Use this strategem at the start of the opponent's shooting phase. Select one ALPHA LEGION INFANTRY unit from your army. Until the end of the phase, enemy models can only target that unit if it is the closest visible target
Reason I bring it up is I've seen a lot of local players get confused, thinking you can hide a unit out of line of sight that is closer to prevent the concealed unit from being shot, or just in general assuming it follows the character rules as far as sniper abilities go. RAW, long as it's the closest thing you can see, it's a legal target. So for example, if I want to shoot the possessed bomb, all I need to do is finagle my shooting unit so a building blocks Los to the screen or something. Not so easy if you have cultists or something screened across the front. Pretty easy if all you have is a lord discordant with the -4 to hit or whatever.
Interesting quirk is that it also means artillery cannot target them for any reason if they can't see them, so that's fun. Just stuff to think about, primarily for new players since I'm sure a lot of the most competitive guys already noticed this.
Most players are aware of the closest visible thing. The most common counters I've seen are the -4 Discolord and infiltrated Nurglings.
Regardless of how you do it - the goal is to make the Possessed impossible to hit. I got screwed in a match vs Alpha Legion, had 3 Scorpius Whirlwinds and could not shoot them. They wrecked my gunline infantry before Abaddon and a DP killed half of them and the tanks finished off the rest.
The real problem with Possessed - one hyper-buffed unit per detachment that goes down as soon as they are out of range of the Sorcerer / MoP. It's not getting there that's the problem, it's sustaining the assault.
So yes you can. One thing i allways wondered though, is the effect cumulative, as in if i stand around 3 do i get + 3 to my role?
And i wonder if you ever start reading the FAQs.
Q: Lots of aura abilities say they grant an ability to nearby
units that are within range of any such models. Are the bonuses
cumulative (i.e. if I am within range of two models with identical
aura abilities, is the bonus doubled)?
A: Unless stated otherwise, no. The bonus for such an
ability applies once if any (i.e. one or more) of these
models are within range.
This is from the first rulebook update, released more than 24 (!) month ago. FAQs are mandatory, just like the core rules.
Similarly i wonder if you ever achieved basic manners.
New Fabius being teased at GAMA. Hopefully we won't just get Chaos Primaris but some interesting new creations.
Thoughts on what role they could potentially fill? I think Fabius is an underrated HQ choice, he's great for buffing Cultist chaff. If he gets new rules, I'm hoping to expand on that theme. Less random buffs perhaps, or maybe the ability to uplift an entire squad to New Men.
I'd like to see some big scary melee beatsticks that represent his experimental subjects, but I wonder if Chaos already has a lot of competition for that slot. I'm thinking a faster version of mutliators, or a more durable version of Possessed/Warp Talons.
Not Online!!! wrote:Nope, just needs to be off the same <Legion> according to it's rules. Not same mark. Also they are literally slave vessels used by warpsmiths and MoP's as oversized batteries itself beeing a chained daemon fo some good may influence some of it's behaviour but not the core point of the machine, aka beeing an oversized battery.
Thanks, that's what I thought. I just wanted to make sure.
Today I played a game with my Iron Warriors and got trashed. This was mainly my fault since a) I forgot my first psychic phase (this was because I had been playing a strictly Khorne army a day or so before) and b) I didn't organize my army correctly on the field, meaning that I did not get as much use out of my buffs that I could have. Next time, I'm going to be more focused on organizing along the lines of Chaos marks. Also, I tend to be too shy about my command points, which is funny since I try to maximize as many command points as possible without hurting my army's compositions or putting together an army that I'm just not excited about. My opponent did get first turn and a lot of good rolls while I got some bad rolls (my disco lord was shredded before it could do anything), but the fault still mainly lies with my underwhelming planning and lackluster gameplay/ I did get the awesome moment of killing a dreadnought in melee with two plague marines, one armed with a plage knife and the other with just standard melee. It was down to its last legs, but it was still a cool moment to have amidst being shredded.
I was looking over the stats for Zhufor the Impaler today, and he seems like he's a pretty good unit who could benefit well from the WE buffs. However, I don't see any way to get a Skulltakers unit so that he can give out his own buffs. Would it be allowable to give the keyword to WE units? It strikes me as a waste to have these abilities and to not be able to use them at all.
I was looking over the stats for Zhufor the Impaler today, and he seems like he's a pretty good unit who could benefit well from the WE buffs. However, I don't see any way to get a Skulltakers unit so that he can give out his own buffs. Would it be allowable to give the keyword to WE units? It strikes me as a waste to have these abilities and to not be able to use them at all.
I suspect the Forgeworld rules re-write will fix a lot of issues such as these.
I was looking over the stats for Zhufor the Impaler today, and he seems like he's a pretty good unit who could benefit well from the WE buffs. However, I don't see any way to get a Skulltakers unit so that he can give out his own buffs. Would it be allowable to give the keyword to WE units? It strikes me as a waste to have these abilities and to not be able to use them at all.
I suspect the Forgeworld rules re-write will fix a lot of issues such as these.
Prepare to be disappointed. Its the GW rules team doing the re-write.
I was looking over the stats for Zhufor the Impaler today, and he seems like he's a pretty good unit who could benefit well from the WE buffs. However, I don't see any way to get a Skulltakers unit so that he can give out his own buffs. Would it be allowable to give the keyword to WE units? It strikes me as a waste to have these abilities and to not be able to use them at all.
I suspect the Forgeworld rules re-write will fix a lot of issues such as these.
Prepare to be disappointed. Its the GW rules team doing the re-write.
Sofar FW rules provided by the GW rulesteam (everything CA and FAQ, ) is indeed lackluster as all hell.
And considering the recent SM releases. You could get lucky and get IH tier nonsense, or unlucky like other factions.
I was looking over the stats for Zhufor the Impaler today, and he seems like he's a pretty good unit who could benefit well from the WE buffs. However, I don't see any way to get a Skulltakers unit so that he can give out his own buffs. Would it be allowable to give the keyword to WE units? It strikes me as a waste to have these abilities and to not be able to use them at all.
I suspect the Forgeworld rules re-write will fix a lot of issues such as these.
Prepare to be disappointed. Its the GW rules team doing the re-write.
I mean, if this means the Legion characters are compatible with their Legion, I’m lowit
So I am building my friend a Word Bearers army from scratch, because he is interested in playing, but can't afford the cost. Aside from Daemons, can anyone give me some tips on good must have models for a WB army? Also, where is a good source for cheap counts as cultist models?
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Tell them to run the Word Bearers as World Eaters as the color schemes are close but one is infinitely more useable.
Thank you for contributing absolutely nothing and not actually answering the question: What models/units are good in Word Bearers, and should be included in the army?
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: So I am building my friend a Word Bearers army from scratch, because he is interested in playing, but can't afford the cost. Aside from Daemons, can anyone give me some tips on good must have models for a WB army? Also, where is a good source for cheap counts as cultist models?
For cultists just look around for left over Dark Vengeance and poxwalkers from Dark Imperium. You can find groups of 20 for around $18-20. As for good units I would say the Start collecting box with the Demon Engine and Master of possession would be a good base. Word Bearers seem Demon centric. From there it's add an HQ and one cultist unit for the battalion and go from there depending on intended play style.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Tell them to run the Word Bearers as World Eaters as the color schemes are close but one is infinitely more useable.
Thank you for contributing absolutely nothing and not actually answering the question: What models/units are good in Word Bearers, and should be included in the army?
Please don't pick on my good friend slayer-fan123. He's someone to be understood, not interpreted literally.
As far as what to select for a Word Bearers army, there are many ways you could run one. I'm personally fond of infantry-only builds, for the fluff and for the potential for summoning.
These are the models I would consider:
- Dark Apostle, Master of Possession for HQs with Master of the Union on the Warlord for buffs to Daemons
- Jump Pack Sorcerer for Warptime
- Possessed x 20, run them as a bomb
- 2x Greater Possessed for buffs to Possessed
In a Nurgle Detachment, I would run the following:
- Herald
- Nurglings
- The Tree
And I'd leave about 500 summoning points.
This isn't alpha legion, you aren't going to use conceal to get up the battlefield. You are going to try to go second and use warptime + the tree for first turn charges. Use the Revered Hosts Stratagem to destroy Primaris with each successful hit.
After the first round, summon a ton of Daemons to expand the assault. The reason you will do it this way is for tactical flexibility, you can bring on any units you want and you have the WB stratagem for rerolls on the summoning.
This is about as nasty as I would get with pure Word Bearers right now. If you want to consider SlayerFan123's advice, also get a squad of Terminators and kit them out for close combat. Tell your friend he can run them as Red Butchers.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Tell them to run the Word Bearers as World Eaters as the color schemes are close but one is infinitely more useable.
Thank you for contributing absolutely nothing and not actually answering the question: What models/units are good in Word Bearers, and should be included in the army?
The only thing they have is like 1-2 Strats and another Smashlord build. That's really all they contribute. So honestly it wasn't bad advice for your friend.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: So I am building my friend a Word Bearers army from scratch, because he is interested in playing, but can't afford the cost. Aside from Daemons, can anyone give me some tips on good must have models for a WB army? Also, where is a good source for cheap counts as cultist models?
If you want to use Psychic Awakening, I second @techsoldaten - and add a chaos lord with the Possessed trait and the Chainaxe relic. Why should his victims be allowed to run away, eh?
If your friend is somewhat new to 40K and you don’t want to drown him in A4 hardcover art books, Dinobot Daemonkin is how I ran my WBs during the first two years - especially after MoPs dropped. We invented Defilers, let’s make use of them! Cultists to farm CP, and a Daemon detachment or two to run a useful Locus - Nurgle for punchier Defilers, Slaanesh for sprinting Maulers, Tzeentch (Changeling & Daemonspark Herald) for tough Forgefiends, Khorne Crimson Crown to make anything A N G E R Y. To actually make use of vanilla WB traits, a Daemon Prince or Dark Apostle with Voice of Lorgar is handy. Also, Obliterators!
Re cultist minis - Corpse-grinder gangs, beastmen, and Plague Monks have done me well. Pretty easy to swap in some pistols or rifles. But now you can just get the £6 Cultists and the £15 Cultists of the Abyss, it’s actually pretty easy to get a WYSIWYG horde. Props for building an army for a friend to use, by the way!
So he is a pretty hardcore baptist, and he chose WBs because he felt they represented the Babtists of 40k, which I thought was so hilarious I decided I would make him his army. So far I have a Chaos lord with a thunder hammer and plasma, 2x five man CSM squads with 1x autocannon, about 20x cultists, and 20x blood letters. should I throw in a Venom Crawler or a daemon prince?
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: So he is a pretty hardcore baptist, and he chose WBs because he felt they represented the Babtists of 40k, which I thought was so hilarious I decided I would make him his army. So far I have a Chaos lord with a thunder hammer and plasma, 2x five man CSM squads with 1x autocannon, about 20x cultists, and 20x blood letters. should I throw in a Venom Crawler or a daemon prince?
Allways go for ATLEAST one Battalion, better two, because CSM are CP hungry, especially with F&F.
lindsay40k wrote: Definitely DP, fills the battalion and a good match for WB warlord trait.
Also, Word Bearers being the Baptists of 40K… wasn’t ready for that
Just think the next time you see Westboro Baptists church.....CHAOS HERESY
wasn't there the whole 8pointed star and scientology meme?
i 'd think from a background and gameplan position that you'd want to build a battalion out of cultists to get access to the special detachment for DA and cultists. That way you can use 1 CP to make a prayer pass. Further, you can allways elevate a DA with the WB stratagem making them in combination with dark disciples. for a nice boost in reliability.
Beyond that , whilest possessed would be the flavour, they sadly are a bit iffy to deliver there can be an argument for nurgle and tree , or slaanesh and warptime to maybee get a t1 charge off. I'd howver go a diffrent route.
Greater possessed are pretty mean beatsticks and with M7 not too slow. further they got charachter protection. A bunch of them hidden inside a mass of angry cultists can make a decent surge forwards. In this case you can also profit from daemon engines.
Infact, i'd go so far as to actually field a brigade maybee with WB.
3 HQ are easy to fill for CSM.
DP with wings.
DA Sorcerer / MoP
3 x Greater possessed?
6 x 10 cultists
3 x Warptalons? (Host raptorial in such a case would come in handy, also they are daemons, making WB warlord traits a quite nice danger.)
3 x vindicator? Venomcrawler? either off those has advantages, for one the vindicator is now actually for what he can do damage wise ,pretty darn cheap. otoh , the veonomcrawler has a lot of synergy with WB overall, and can be suicide flung with warptime at your enemy potentially. Not to mention that if you want to summon daemons they are actually a nice thing if you go for a MoP.
Automatically Appended Next Post: as for cheap cultists, depends a bit, IG come to mind but need conversion work.
GSC neophytes have the equipment options covered for Cultists down to a tee and look more dishelved, not to mention that you can have mutants made out of them, suggestion there, get yourself some other heads and pieces of equipment, ask ig players for some bits and gsc players. Alternatively slaves to darkness aka chaos warrior bits fit well. (did the same for my R&H hordes. )
Anvil had platoons with discounts. allowing you custom formed units, sadly they don't do that anymore.
Are NLs Host Raptorials actually worth it at the moment? Certainly there’s a lot of tricks (easy to make it in from deepstrike, overwatch free on the warp talons, cancel nearby auras with a relic or strat, and prevent infantry fallbacks), but... are they generally applicable enough to make it worth it?
In my mind they’re pretty CP intensive and CSM already has issues generating CP without wasting a big chunk of your list on Cultists or wasting a detachment on Red Corsairs. And stuff like infantry fallback cancelling feels powerful in niche cases but frequently useless in some matchups? Similarly Auspex Scan can wreck them if there isn’t terrain in a good position to shield you. Plus their damage is pretty tame ultimately.
I want them to work but in playtests they really haven’t. Am I missing something or are they more gimmicky and amusing than actually good?
Pomguo wrote: Are NLs Host Raptorials actually worth it at the moment? Certainly there’s a lot of tricks (easy to make it in from deepstrike, overwatch free on the warp talons, cancel nearby auras with a relic or strat, and prevent infantry fallbacks), but... are they generally applicable enough to make it worth it?
In my mind they’re pretty CP intensive and CSM already has issues generating CP without wasting a big chunk of your list on Cultists or wasting a detachment on Red Corsairs. And stuff like infantry fallback cancelling feels powerful in niche cases but frequently useless in some matchups? Similarly Auspex Scan can wreck them if there isn’t terrain in a good position to shield you. Plus their damage is pretty tame ultimately.
I want them to work but in playtests they really haven’t. Am I missing something or are they more gimmicky and amusing than actually good?
It depends, wasting a detachment on RC, which is incidentally also assault focussed faction might actually be less off a waste then you thnk.
A combination of a Host raptiorial detachment, preferably warptalons over Raptors and a battalion of RC might actually work decently in your favour.
F.e.
2 Lord discordants and DP with wings with warptime.
3 x 5 CSM with AC
Is still relative cheap way to generate CP and have a lot of bite.
I’ve only tried non-AL Discos one time and they were shot off the board before reaching anything, so I’m a bit wary of taking them unless I have a much bigger scarier threat to attract fire, like a Knight. Is there a decent answer for that issue?
I was bringing Raptors alongside WTs because they’re fairly cheap and allow me to bait out Auspex or screen characters against Auspex. Bringing WTs alone meant losing most of the squad if I couldn’t drop behind ruin walls, I found.
On another note, what’s the preferred way of handling massed heavy armour? Triple tank commanders with triple exorcists, that kinda thing. Always bring a melee contingent to wrap them up? Spam oblits and hope to roll hot?
Nah, my idea was heavily assault centric with them beeing just another danger, flung at them.
That said, i wouldn't even go out of the house without my 3 lord discordants, even though they are AL, in my Daemonengine list, survivability for them is still an issue so long knights and other equiv durable LoW are common place.
As for raptors. i don't feel like the perform, period. They often lack the numbers for tripointing, require a lot of preinvestment to even make the charge but also have to eat overwatch whilest simultaniously beeing honestly quite bad for melee.
Heavy armor handling depends on the list really.
Lord discordants can handle the occaisional tank rather heasily, Lascannons spread out in differing CSM squads can do some decent work aswell and often times just get ignored because what are 5 CSM with a lascannon going to do?
Havocs, especially the non reaper variation.
Obliterators require some support but are one of the better bets.
Daemon princes.
Possessedbombs or any variation of brute melee infantry we have access to.
Agreed, nix the raptors and go for the warp talons. Way better in cc plus ignoring overwatch is great. Auspex scan wouldn't be as bad if gw hadn't nerfed "in midnight clad". Still convinced they did that for just that reason.
Yeah, I work on the assumption that Raptors will do zero damage. They’re just there to make the charge and so open up easy aura cancelling and fallback denial, because of how vulnerable to auspex equivalents I found taking only WTs was. Usually the opponent won’t auspex the raptors because they know the WTs are waiting, so I can drop them and HQs safely. And if the raptors get auspexed then great, I can drop the much better WTs right then.
Thanks for the advice against heavy armour. Faced a Guard tank commander + basilisk spam yesterday and did fairly well. Conceal on the Havocs who had deployed on a midfield third storey was vital to being able to exchange fire. In my last game they got wiped out with small arms fire, so I guess I need to factor in the CP cost as a natural price to pay.
Here’s my current list for this league I’m in (we’re allowed to change lists between blind matchups, but not allowed to change factions so I’m locked into CSM+TS soup):
I used to bring a Supreme Command of TS and two CSM batts, but I felt 60 cultists had become a liability. Hard to deploy well, easy to give up kill points (the league is playing ITC missions), usually a great choice of target for small arms fire, no real threat, etc. So I swapped out a DP for a budget -2 to be hit AL Jump Lord and used Rubrics to prop up a TS batt. I wish they were AL Rubrics, but need that CP sadly. This time it went a lot better - Rubrics are threatening enough to be useful, and resilient enough to be annoying to remove.
I still feel like my punch is restricted to four expensive and mostly fragile (besides the scarab occults, who are resilient as hell) guns, but I’m not sure what more I can do to alleviate that at this point.
You could replace the scarab termis with CSM termis with combi plasma and axes. Deepstrike them, cast prescience, overcharge, votlw, endless cacophony, and spam 40 safely overcharged plasma shots at S8 AP-3 D2, hitting on 2s, +1 to wound. Add a chaos lord to reroll 1s. Replace the levi dread with obliterators.
p5freak wrote: You could replace the scarab termis with CSM termis with combi plasma and axes. Deepstrike them, cast prescience, overcharge, votlw, endless cacophony, and spam 40 safely overcharged plasma shots at S8 AP-3 D2, hitting on 2s, +1 to wound. Add a chaos lord to reroll 1s. Replace the levi dread with obliterators.
This is a decent suggestion.
But as for your issue with the glasscannony damage dealers, you just gotta suck it up.
The truth is CSM are that way by design, and as soon as the CP run dry good luck even with damage dealing units. The prevalence of anti marine and anti knight weaponry due to their skewing effect on the meta for certain also worsens that issue overall.
Not to say to make an insanely durable list is impossible, it is, but it also would be a whole diffrent list and would lack alot of damage dealing elements overall.
(it'd be also auras all over the shop)
the most durable way for CSM to play is to just have as few units on the field deployed as possible and getting in the first strike overall, maintaining initiative at all costs basically, which is incidentally the reason why you see the cheaper obliterators again, or why CSM termites with combiplas are liked.
It's also a reason further for why AL is just better then most legions, due to allowing you to actively hide more units overall in reserves or moving these around pregame. On top of a slew of durability improvements.
Thanks for the suggestions! And yeah I guess fragile firepower is just something to play around beyond what measures I’ve already taken. DS the oblits, Conceal the Havocs, Benediction of Darkness + Delightful Agonies the Lev Dred seems to work for me ok.
@p5freak: swap the lev dread for a second trio of oblits? I worry that loses the reliability of S8 2dmg shooting that the Lev Dred provides, while also being squishier. But maybe I am influenced by one of my early games being against Ad Mech, who simply couldn’t hurt the Lev Dred after I removed the laschickens turn one. As for the chaos lord, I actually start the Jump Pack lord on the board to give rerolls to the havocs and dred for the first couple of turns as everything moves to claim the midfield, then warptime him over screens etc and touch tanks or character assassinate.
CSM termies with plasma instead of Scarabs is interesting. They are ever so slightly more expensive I believe, and trade a very strong defensive profile (0+ save, 1-3 revivable per turn, and 3++ if all buffs go off) and a vast volume of fire (double shoot strat if they haven’t moved, so close to 80 shots) for the higher strength, damage and point of AP, as well as the AL -1 and strat access. I’ll test it out, but I suspect for my “I wish I was more durable” tastes I may prefer the scarabs - will have to see how much damage they can produce first-hand! Probably need to push Prescience onto a Thousand Sons sorceror instead also, to make it more of a sure thing and ensure the better plasma damage, which means going without it turn 1. Also may try doing a 5 man squad of each.
On another note, i am starting to believe that i should really start focusing on a more durable build now.
Maybee a build that generates a lot of invulnerable saves which seems to be something we are relatively easly able to do.
Some basic thoughts sofar would be
AL:
Elites i'd pick 3 x 5 Plague marines with 3 PG each.
DA with cult leader and ilusion prayer babysitting a core of cultists which profit heavily from him , maybee add in a blob of slaanesh and a sorcerer off slaanesh for a additional FNP.
Squad of Obliterators.
Something along that veins. Maybee even go with a vindicator squadron babysitted by a warpsmith and DA? (a 5++ on a t8 model actually sounds enticing when not bound to the BS4+ drawback of daemonengines...)
Agents of Bile/Consortium speculation? I'm assuming no new models beyond the Primogenitor and Igor
(Though I'd love the Canister bearing lackey from the 2nd artwork)
Will they be restricted from some choices but be able to tinker with all their available infantry? Will Bill be allowed to get in a transport?
Eldarain wrote: Agents of Bile/Consortium speculation? I'm assuming no new models beyond the Primogenitor and Igor
(Though I'd love the Canister bearing lackey from the 2nd artwork)
Will they be restricted from some choices but be able to tinker with all their available infantry? Will Bill be allowed to get in a transport?
I thought off them as a whole seperate faction sofar, as in , the rumors stated them to be seperate.
How widely seperate they are? I don't know.
But i can imagine everything from the eye of terror campaign lost and the damned list in content, too a seperate unit (aka newman) and then beeing unmarkable csm core units without god alignment.
Of course i hope for something more substantial.
That said, i think we will see a New Man kit mostlikely.
They were described as a sub faction to CSM so I'm not expecting large scale deviation. A New Man kit would be amazing. Can't think of too much off the top of my head from the Rumor Engine that would fit though.
Eldarain wrote: They were described as a sub faction to CSM so I'm not expecting large scale deviation. A New Man kit would be amazing. Can't think of too much off the top of my head from the Rumor Engine that would fit though.
Frankly we are still overdue for a kit off:
Cultists, Chosen, Possessed.
Off those all can fit with new man theme imo.
I do hope though that it is an actual diffrent list.
@p5freak: swap the lev dread for a second trio of oblits? I worry that loses the reliability of S8 2dmg shooting that the Lev Dred provides, while also being squishier. But maybe I am influenced by one of my early games being against Ad Mech, who simply couldn’t hurt the Lev Dred after I removed the laschickens turn one. As for the chaos lord, I actually start the Jump Pack lord on the board to give rerolls to the havocs and dred for the first couple of turns as everything moves to claim the midfield, then warptime him over screens etc and touch tanks or character assassinate.
Well, oblits have some advantages over the levi dread. You can use votlw and ec on them. You can conceal them.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Eldarain wrote: Agents of Bile/Consortium speculation? I'm assuming no new models beyond the Primogenitor and Igor
(Though I'd love the Canister bearing lackey from the 2nd artwork)
Will they be restricted from some choices but be able to tinker with all their available infantry? Will Bill be allowed to get in a transport?
Maybe we are going to see the equivalent of primaris SM for CSM ? Bile does experiment with cloning and genetic engineering.
still undecided between 3 oblys or 10 AL slaanesh termy, problems of oblys is against a skilled opponent hardly you can touch his veichles or heavy stuff, you will spend their firepower over infantry so then not sure if wort.
blackmage wrote: still undecided between 3 oblys or 10 AL slaanesh termy, problems of oblys is against a skilled opponent hardly you can touch his veichles or heavy stuff, you will spend their firepower over infantry so then not sure if wort.
I assume you'd take the Combiplas version with Chainaxe right? If my math pans out, since i am away from my dex, that'd be 330 pts vs 285 pts.
You got diffrent advantages and disadvantages.
Combiplas termites require bit more babysitting because you'd need a +1 to hit whilest the obllits are fine with just reroll 1 allready mostly.
Otoh, Combiplas do quite well against infantry, what with each termite having allways 2 bolt shots on top off plasma.
Normaly, from an armchair position i'd say the Oblits because smaller footprint (ehhhhhh their bases are still rather large sooo..) and less lifeline support needed.
However the versatility and higher overall higher firerate makes the Combiplas termites just generally better option.
Granted if we would know what list you intend to put them in then we could help you out better.
Automatically Appended Next Post: On another note, anyone any idea on how to best run Venomcrawlers`?
I allways find them a bit iffy, what with their rather specialistic ruleset and requirement off support. Otoh at 115 pts they are actually quite cheap now.
(shame we have no stratagem to make our daemonengiens go boom more reliably.)
i use chainaxe+chainsword termies, they have to be cheap in my opinion
You could play slaanesh VC with slaanesh demon character support, +1 strenght and move+run+charge is great.
blackmage wrote: i use chainaxe+chainsword termies, they have to be cheap in my opinion
erm that is a ilegal combo?
You mean Combibolters and chainaxes instead right?
sorry chainaxes+combibolter
Well that is a whole other unit now isn't it then compared to obliterators. With a completely diffrent target unit type.
my experience with chainaxe + cb termies is in general rather good. Shoot one thing charge another or attempt too. great at removing screens because allways 4 shots is nice.
Reaper AC isn't bad either if you want to go dakka
but against vehicles they do fall short if you don't use votwl. And even then...
I wonder if it's still possible that we'll ever be able to make custom warbands like SM can create custom successor chapters. I'd love to be able to combine the Khornate choppiness of the World Eaters with the daemonic leanings of the Word Bearers, or maybe choppiness plus the IW ability to ignore cover.
Hopefully. I also hope that any upcoming World Eaters codex will include in it info and possibly rules for lesser-known Khornate groups like the Wrath:
https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Wrath
Gadzilla666 wrote: I'd prefer they fix the legion traits for the legions we have before giving us build a warband. But I guess beggars can't be choosers.
Gadzilla666 wrote: I'd prefer they fix the legion traits for the legions we have before giving us build a warband. But I guess beggars can't be choosers.
but the traits are fixed acording to GW.
atleast how many times since the first dex?
I guess me and gw have different definitions of "fixed".
Mine being: traits that meaningfully affect how an army plays and benefits it according to its fluff so that it can function without massive reliance on cp generation and strategem stacking combos.
@p5freak: swap the lev dread for a second trio of oblits? I worry that loses the reliability of S8 2dmg shooting that the Lev Dred provides, while also being squishier. But maybe I am influenced by one of my early games being against Ad Mech, who simply couldn’t hurt the Lev Dred after I removed the laschickens turn one. As for the chaos lord, I actually start the Jump Pack lord on the board to give rerolls to the havocs and dred for the first couple of turns as everything moves to claim the midfield, then warptime him over screens etc and touch tanks or character assassinate.
Well, oblits have some advantages over the levi dread. You can use votlw and ec on them. You can conceal them..
Sure, but you can only VOTLW and Conceal one unit of Oblits, and I already have one unit. So I feel like a Lev Dred might be worse than a squad of Oblits in isolation, but is a better pick than adding a second squad of Oblits.
@p5freak: swap the lev dread for a second trio of oblits? I worry that loses the reliability of S8 2dmg shooting that the Lev Dred provides, while also being squishier. But maybe I am influenced by one of my early games being against Ad Mech, who simply couldn’t hurt the Lev Dred after I removed the laschickens turn one. As for the chaos lord, I actually start the Jump Pack lord on the board to give rerolls to the havocs and dred for the first couple of turns as everything moves to claim the midfield, then warptime him over screens etc and touch tanks or character assassinate.
Well, oblits have some advantages over the levi dread. You can use votlw and ec on them. You can conceal them..
Sure, but you can only VOTLW and Conceal one unit of Oblits, and I already have one unit. So I feel like a Lev Dred might be worse than a squad of Oblits in isolation, but is a better pick than adding a second squad of Oblits.
However the second squad doesn't need to be on the field to be a threat. Whilest the levi is allways on the field and has a big mark painted on it.
Not to mention the added flexibility of dropping in a second squad at any position of your leisure.
Both oblits and the levi dread are viable options. They both have their ups and downs. An AL levi dread with mark of nurgle and miasma is hard to kill with -2 to hit, and offers good consistent firepower at 36". On the other side oblits can deepstrike and use votlw, ec and conceal. They can also have the mark of nurgle and get -2 to hit with miasma.
p5freak wrote: Both oblits and the levi dread are viable options. They both have their ups and downs. An AL levi dread with mark of nurgle and miasma is hard to kill with -2 to hit, and offers good consistent firepower at 36". On the other side oblits can deepstrike and use votlw, ec and conceal. They can also have the mark of nurgle and get -2 to hit with miasma.
i guess it comes down to preference and the list itself.
Remember we had a phase where Purge termites were used instead off obliterators in the tournament circuit.
p5freak wrote: Both oblits and the levi dread are viable options. They both have their ups and downs. An AL levi dread with mark of nurgle and miasma is hard to kill with -2 to hit, and offers good consistent firepower at 36". On the other side oblits can deepstrike and use votlw, ec and conceal. They can also have the mark of nurgle and get -2 to hit with miasma.
i guess it comes down to preference and the list itself.
Remember we had a phase where Purge termites were used instead off obliterators in the tournament circuit.
what benefits does the termite have over dreads/oblits in the purge. Legion traits still don't apply to them.
p5freak wrote: Both oblits and the levi dread are viable options. They both have their ups and downs. An AL levi dread with mark of nurgle and miasma is hard to kill with -2 to hit, and offers good consistent firepower at 36". On the other side oblits can deepstrike and use votlw, ec and conceal. They can also have the mark of nurgle and get -2 to hit with miasma.
i guess it comes down to preference and the list itself.
Remember we had a phase where Purge termites were used instead off obliterators in the tournament circuit.
what benefits does the termite have over dreads/oblits in the purge. Legion traits still don't apply to them.
He talks about terminators, not the FW termite transport. I dont understand why people refer to terminators as termites, their abbreviation is termi(s).
p5freak wrote: Both oblits and the levi dread are viable options. They both have their ups and downs. An AL levi dread with mark of nurgle and miasma is hard to kill with -2 to hit, and offers good consistent firepower at 36". On the other side oblits can deepstrike and use votlw, ec and conceal. They can also have the mark of nurgle and get -2 to hit with miasma.
i guess it comes down to preference and the list itself.
Remember we had a phase where Purge termites were used instead off obliterators in the tournament circuit.
what benefits does the termite have over dreads/oblits in the purge. Legion traits still don't apply to them.
He talks about terminators, not the FW termite transport. I dont understand why people refer to terminators as termites, their abbreviation is termi(s).
oh, yeah thats a weird nickname since theres an actual unit called that
p5freak wrote: Both oblits and the levi dread are viable options. They both have their ups and downs. An AL levi dread with mark of nurgle and miasma is hard to kill with -2 to hit, and offers good consistent firepower at 36". On the other side oblits can deepstrike and use votlw, ec and conceal. They can also have the mark of nurgle and get -2 to hit with miasma.
. I thought only Helbrutes got the AL -1 to be hit. How are you getting to -2 for the Levi?
p5freak wrote: Both oblits and the levi dread are viable options. They both have their ups and downs. An AL levi dread with mark of nurgle and miasma is hard to kill with -2 to hit, and offers good consistent firepower at 36". On the other side oblits can deepstrike and use votlw, ec and conceal. They can also have the mark of nurgle and get -2 to hit with miasma.
. I thought only Helbrutes got the AL -1 to be hit. How are you getting to -2 for the Levi?
Going from memory it is keyword Helbrute for traits but Unit name Helbrute for Fire Frenzy in terms of what works with the FW dreads. We should have army wide traits but for whatever reason we not only remain the most restrictive army in the game after they fixed Marines similar issue they further hamstrung us by removing traits from Cultists.
p5freak wrote: Both oblits and the levi dread are viable options. They both have their ups and downs. An AL levi dread with mark of nurgle and miasma is hard to kill with -2 to hit, and offers good consistent firepower at 36". On the other side oblits can deepstrike and use votlw, ec and conceal. They can also have the mark of nurgle and get -2 to hit with miasma.
. I thought only Helbrutes got the AL -1 to be hit. How are you getting to -2 for the Levi?
p5freak wrote: Both oblits and the levi dread are viable options. They both have their ups and downs. An AL levi dread with mark of nurgle and miasma is hard to kill with -2 to hit, and offers good consistent firepower at 36". On the other side oblits can deepstrike and use votlw, ec and conceal. They can also have the mark of nurgle and get -2 to hit with miasma.
. I thought only Helbrutes got the AL -1 to be hit. How are you getting to -2 for the Levi?
Miasma of Pestilence on a Nurgle marked unit.
Yes I read that part. I am trying to confirm that the 2nd -1 modifier cannot come from the AL trait on a Levi as it is not a Helbrute
p5freak wrote: Both oblits and the levi dread are viable options. They both have their ups and downs. An AL levi dread with mark of nurgle and miasma is hard to kill with -2 to hit, and offers good consistent firepower at 36". On the other side oblits can deepstrike and use votlw, ec and conceal. They can also have the mark of nurgle and get -2 to hit with miasma.
. I thought only Helbrutes got the AL -1 to be hit. How are you getting to -2 for the Levi?
Miasma of Pestilence on a Nurgle marked unit.
Yes I read that part. I am trying to confirm that the 2nd -1 modifier cannot come from the AL trait on a Levi as it is not a Helbrute
All the fw hellforged dreadnoughts were FAQed to have the hellbrute keyword, so it does get the -1. Look at the FAQ for Imperial Armour Index: Forces of Chaos.
p5freak wrote: Both oblits and the levi dread are viable options. They both have their ups and downs. An AL levi dread with mark of nurgle and miasma is hard to kill with -2 to hit, and offers good consistent firepower at 36". On the other side oblits can deepstrike and use votlw, ec and conceal. They can also have the mark of nurgle and get -2 to hit with miasma.
. I thought only Helbrutes got the AL -1 to be hit. How are you getting to -2 for the Levi?
Miasma of Pestilence on a Nurgle marked unit.
Yes I read that part. I am trying to confirm that the 2nd -1 modifier cannot come from the AL trait on a Levi as it is not a Helbrute
All the fw hellforged dreadnoughts were FAQed to have the hellbrute keyword, so it does get the -1. Look at the FAQ for Imperial Armour Index: Forces of Chaos.
Oh Excellent Thankyou very much for the news! Overjoyed!
@p5freak: swap the lev dread for a second trio of oblits? I worry that loses the reliability of S8 2dmg shooting that the Lev Dred provides, while also being squishier. But maybe I am influenced by one of my early games being against Ad Mech, who simply couldn’t hurt the Lev Dred after I removed the laschickens turn one. As for the chaos lord, I actually start the Jump Pack lord on the board to give rerolls to the havocs and dred for the first couple of turns as everything moves to claim the midfield, then warptime him over screens etc and touch tanks or character assassinate.
Well, oblits have some advantages over the levi dread. You can use votlw and ec on them. You can conceal them..
Sure, but you can only VOTLW and Conceal one unit of Oblits, and I already have one unit. So I feel like a Lev Dred might be worse than a squad of Oblits in isolation, but is a better pick than adding a second squad of Oblits.
make bothj AL conceal one squad and use benediction of darkness and if you have, delightful agonies on the other one, dislogde them with a -2 to hit and 2+/4++/5+++ become tricky
make bothj AL conceal one squad and use benediction of darkness and if you have, delightful agonies on the other one, dislogde them with a -2 to hit and 2+/4++/5+++ become tricky
I dont think a dark apostle is worth 72/82 pts. for just one prayer. A sorcerer can cast two powers for 88 pts. Where do you get the 4++ for them ?
master of possession
Dark apostole worth... if you play competitive you understand why, a LOD with a -3(or -4 if you amrk it nurgle) to hit for example is a pain in the ass or as said above 3 obly. See how possessed bomb work for example, have a solid firebase that opponent struggle to remove is critical for competitive chaos, our efficient fire platforms cost a lot and aren't chep (oblys, rubric, noise and termies too) you need to protect them in particular from 1st turn alpha strikes, AiP is an option in some cases, but is not always the best and only way, start with 3 AL obly on the table move them 9" then conceal them or make them -2 to hit is stronger than you can believe, lately i was playing 20 AL rubrics and 3 AL obly, i conceal the rubric and get obly at -2 to hit behind 90 cultists, work better if you play 90 IW fearless cultist. If you play GW missions those kind of lists are close to top for chaos actually.
Reivax26 wrote: I am getting ready to jump onto the Chaos train. I am going Alpha Legion as I find them entertaining and I have heard that they can be competitive.
Any suggestions on what models are absolute must haves?
depends on the level you want to play and the system, what with ITC beeing basically a totaly diffrent setting due to secondaries.
At minimum you'd want 2 battalions because CP make CSM work.
Alpha legion can also run nearly all versions of shenanigans and has the braodest palette of units that work with it.
Reivax26 wrote: I am getting ready to jump onto the Chaos train. I am going Alpha Legion as I find them entertaining and I have heard that they can be competitive.
Any suggestions on what models are absolute must haves?
Must have: obliterators, RCC havocs (with transport), sorcerers, cultists. Nice to have : disco lords (with daemon engines, i like venomcrawlers, because they synergize well with chaos daemons), master of possession, terminators, chaos lords, hellforged contemptor dreads, hellforged leviathan dread, daemon princes.
Reivax26 wrote: I am getting ready to jump onto the Chaos train. I am going Alpha Legion as I find them entertaining and I have heard that they can be competitive.
Any suggestions on what models are absolute must haves?
Must have: obliterators, RCC havocs (with transport), sorcerers, cultists. Nice to have : disco lords (with daemon engines, i like venomcrawlers, because they synergize well with chaos daemons), master of possession, terminators, chaos lords, hellforged contemptor dreads, hellforged leviathan dread, daemon princes.
How do you remove chaff/hordes with disco lords ? RCC havocs can do that, and harm vehicles with votlw, prescience, ec. Disco lords cant use any of these.
How do you remove chaff/hordes with disco lords ? RCC havocs can do that, and harm vehicles with votlw, prescience, ec. Disco lords cant use any of these.
I rarely struggle with hordes though. Then again i have started substituting cultists with MSUcsm,mostly with AC but also some RC in them.
Prescience targets a heretic astartes unit so the Lord discordant has said keyword.
Prescience targets a heretic astartes unit so the Lord discordant has said keyword.
True, but i doesnt make sense, because the lord already buffs himself with its aura of discord, and he already hits on 2s. Unless you target something thats -2, or even more, to hit.
Prescience targets a heretic astartes unit so the Lord discordant has said keyword.
True, but i doesnt make sense, because the lord already buffs himself with its aura of discord, and he already hits on 2s. Unless you target something thats -2, or even more, to hit.
Tbf, the shooting isn't why'd you run a lord discordant, except you attempt to headhunter meme with an Autocannon? (which btw is bloody hillarious when contextualised with what an AC is )
My general idea was to try and maximize the number of units who are benefiting from the -1 to hit while still throwing out decent firepower. I was amazed at how cheap 4 Autocannon Havocs were considering how much damage and range that they have.
Reivax26 wrote: My general idea was to try and maximize the number of units who are benefiting from the -1 to hit while still throwing out decent firepower. I was amazed at how cheap 4 Autocannon Havocs were considering how much damage and range that they have.
Given our abilities in pre game movement and the Strategems making a gunline style list isn't really the worst idea. Put in a good amount of damage 2 and higher weapons and quite a few models.
Reivax26 wrote: I am getting ready to jump onto the Chaos train. I am going Alpha Legion as I find them entertaining and I have heard that they can be competitive.
Any suggestions on what models are absolute must haves?
There’s some brutal Possessed horde builds that do rely on a load of moving parts and highly specific rules interactions
for chaff remove chaos have no issues at all, Slaanesh termies, noise marines, scarab occult termies, rubric with infenal fusilade
lord discos cant kill big hordes but dont let them play as they want, hardly a horde can kill a LoD,i played it many times against hordes, for them can be a pain in the ass to remove, save 2++ inv 5++/4++ can be -2 to be hit in cac(if alpha legion) 12 wounds, LoD is one of best models chaos can actually deploy on table.
Reivax26 wrote: Given our abilities in pre game movement and the Strategems making a gunline style list isn't really the worst idea. Put in a good amount of damage 2 and higher weapons and quite a few models.
You could attempt a classical Hammer and anvil build, how competitive that is i can not answer but i'd imagine it can be done.
Assuming you want to maximize -1 to hit units i'd assume you'd want to field atleast a battalion of csm marines.
I guess a 20 man setup would be beneficial for such a strategy.
2x5 with AC and 1 x 10 with 2 AC.
For Hq i'd assume you'd pick atleast one Apostle with -1 prayer.
A slaanesh sorcerer, for prescience and the 5+++ prayer.
Then you could be using the trait to shuffle up to 3 units in your deployment in form off a Lord.
Add in another Dark apostle with ilusion prayer (5++ in a 6" area.)
another 15 CSM with AC.
¨and 3 vindicators. , The lord the DA and the vindicators make for a castle that can be easily moved around and demolishers with a 5++ are actually pretty sweet, altough i think overall it'd be better if you go for another -1 to hit prayer.
The anvil then would be a Terminator lord,
3 Obliterators.
10 terminators with 2 reapers and cb chainaxe.
Mind you that is just a rough estimation on how to build a durable list.
Of course you could replace the vindicators with Havocs with AC's 110 pts for 4 AC's isn't bad.
You could also skip marines and go for a cult leader ilusionist DA surrounded by AL cultists in the specialist detachment. 5++ doubles their save and can't be ignored really whilest the cultis help praying and you can congaline a big ammount of squads around him that profit from Ap-1 on 6's (would also be fluffy somewhat for AL.) For that build however you'd go into wierd territory, due to it beeing partially modled on my experiences off my attempt at making noctiliths work.
Anyone have any luck with Emperor's Children? Their legion trait runs counter to Noise Marines with sonic weapons. I've considered running squads geared for close combat but at that point why not run World Eaters. If I go gun line, I believe I could more mileage out of Iron Warriors with heavy weapons and ignoring cover (not to mention way easier to paint). Also, lining up that many Noise Marines and leaving them open to shooting seems inevitable. Any suggestions would be appreciated.
The4thEnemy wrote: Anyone have any luck with Emperor's Children? Their legion trait runs counter to Noise Marines with sonic weapons. I've considered running squads geared for close combat but at that point why not run World Eaters. If I go gun line, I believe I could more mileage out of Iron Warriors with heavy weapons and ignoring cover (not to mention way easier to paint). Also, lining up that many Noise Marines and leaving them open to shooting seems inevitable. Any suggestions would be appreciated.
EC terminators with combi plasma and chain axes are a nasty little unit.
Sonic weapons don't suffer from shooting on the move, so, especially with lots of terrain, the Nice Marines should have an easier time concentrating their fire than IW, who want to fight from static positions. Endless Cacaphony with Excruciating Frequencies helps with that.
For the melee part, well your army has HQ and Elite slots, too.
Also the question "Why would I take a balanced force, if I can't outshoot the shooty specialist and can't outfight the melee specialists?" is a bit loaded.
EC have a lot of potential on the Possessed Bomb, albeit with a lot of moving parts
You will need:
- DA detachment including Contorted Epitome
- Possessed horde
- Warptimer (WB or TS named hero are best for reliability)
- the VA Possessed detachment: Mutated Invigoration, Cursed Earth, Shepherd
- a bunch of CP
Optional:
- Delightful Agonies & Fab Bill
- Exalted Champion
- DP
In your first turn, Warptime the Possessed into the enemy’s face. Use Tri-pointing and /or Fiends to take hostages
In the following Enemy turn, have Bill buff them - DA will negate 1/3 of the backdraft. If your opponent charges you, you’ve gained +1A again. If they don’t, you get to eat them in their own turn.
In your following turn, if you’re still in close combat, have Epitome cast Frenzy for MOAR PUNCHING
I like it. I'd completely forgot about the Primogenitor. My main force is Alpha Legion, in which I run 40 possessed so I was looking for something a little new. I ended up considering an EC list with, of all things, Mutilators. On average they get -2 rend and 2 damage. Buffing them with the extra attacks when they kill something and possibly another extra attack if they manage to wound on 6 while near a Slaanesh character seemed pretty good if you can get all the moving parts to work.
OK, I like the Wordbearer's fancy new toys and want to go check them out. Their Legion trait sucks, but who cares, I want to take a taste of that deliciously cheesy Chaos soup, anyway, Daemon detachment sounds quite fitting for a Wordbearer list.
Noooow.... around here most people play with max 3 detachments. Which leaves me one more detachment to play around with
Options I see:
-A second Daemon attachment, so I can have Daemons from two different gods, and still get their loci
-a detachment, that let's me take a lord of war - probably not, as it costs a lot of money and points. Although....
-a detachment, that let's me take fortifications? There is that Nurgle tree to think about, and I didn't even look what the other gods, or the CSM themselves get.
-a mini batallion, mostly as a CP pump.
Mini batallion wise:
-I saw that Dark Legion has a bit of cheese to offer, if I make one of their HQs the Warleader, I can get some extra CP out of him, and then use one of those CPs to still make a Wordbearer Apostle into a Shepherd. That's not a bad deal, at all, and means my real Warlord can go hide under his bed, without taking too much away from the army..
-Alpha Legion has two very specific tricks up their sleeves, that will still work well in a soup. Deepstrike denial within 12" would work well with the 3 units of cultists, that will be mostly there to screen the real army, and +3 on explosion checks for enemy vehicles are also a neat gimmick. Off course, both of those shenanigans won't do much work against all opponents.
-Emperor's Children would be noise, if I drop a few more points beyond the base unholy 32. Their Daemon Princes are just superior to the Daemon Army brethren, even without Flawless Perfection, and I think I could still upgrade the Troop choices to Noise Marines, even as part of a soup.
What do you guys think is the strongest option? Or are there some even nicer gimmicks to have somewhere I didn't look?
As a WBDK player, I find mono DK agenda to work best. You can plan a two pronged attack with focussed auras, but then you put it on the battlefield, and suddenly your DP is flying from one side of the battlefield to the other to hit a key unit, your horde is having to occupy a key objective, and your Obliterators have to drop miles away from a friendly same-god aura to take out a Knight. DK already has internal compatibility blind spots, with CSM buffs that can’t be used on daemons and whatnot. WBs might be polytheist but I Forge a narrative of this one force having been chosen by a deity and benig oart of a wider grand army of all gods.
If I’m fielding a third detachment in a DK list, it’s usually a monotheist Legion. A DG outriders is an amazing compliment to a jamboree of LDs & Oblits
I am not so much thinking about a two-pronged attack, but about using Daemon buffs without slowing down the CSM chars by having to summon all of them.
Atm I am mostly eyeing Slaanesh, his Daemons got some pretty spicy psychic powers (Symphony of Pain, Hysterical Frenzy) and stratagems (Aura of Acquiescence, Locus of Grace), and the nice Locus of Swiftness, which can all dial up Possessed and Obliterators to 11.
Also, there are the Infernal Enrapturess, Contorted Epitomes, possibly the Viceleader and definitely the Fiends to help out, screw over every enemy attempt to use their Psykers and keep people stuck in melee.
I might bring Daemonettes just to upgrade the vanguard to a full battalion, but it will depend on how many points I got left.
I wasn't too happy with the available Possessed minis, but now that I decided to use Sisters Zephyrim squads as basis for Possessed (nothing too hentai, probably just a head swap and some Slaanesh runes on the armor) and Blood Angels Sanguinary Guards for Greater Possessed I am totally fired up. It will look great (if I can do it right) and totally fit the Wordbearer fluff of subverting the Imperial Cult.
I am seeing a lot of white and golden armor with just a touch of pink coming up on my WB army...
You are right to point out the limits to Wordbearer buffs, though. The main problem for me isn't that Daemon Army allies can't be buffed, but that EC Daemon Princes won't profit from WB Greater Possessed either. If I bring them, they would have to operate independently under their own considerable power. In the end its a sliding scale between EC and WB,... Daemon Princes, Greater Possessed, Obliterators, both have their own strengths in their own right in both Legions, and the main synergy would be, that both can profit from Slaanesh Daemons buffs.
The sneakiest decision would probably be Black Legion with some cheap cultists and a coward Warlord as hidden power behind the throne instead of EC. Fluffy AND cheesy, as it should be with Chaos.
Oh, btw, I loove your Obliterator minis, and I am totally try to rip them off, although I'll probably use black as base color. These guys are totally not gonna pretend to be Imperial Cult, they'll be the dark secret hidden away in the dungeons under the cloister.
Thinking about my next project and toying with sticking with chaos and building a small worldeaters warband. I'd like to roll in some khorne daemons possibly. The other thing I'm questioning is while board control will come from me basically advancing everything at my enemy, I need something to hold objectives behind my attacking frontline. Toying with double battalion, 3 units of berserkers and 3 cultists?
Bloodletters are another great choice for troops but again have similar issues as berserkers don't particulalry want them stood on a backfield objective.
I'm wondering if i should look at having a generic khorne battalion. I would lose the legion traits but I'm starting to question with hateful assault my berserkers are already getting 3+1 attacks each and then fighting twice. Do i really need that +1 attack if i broke the worldeaters detachment with a unit of bloodletters?
Or i think i can take cultists and bloodletters in a khorne detachment?
Whats the best way of getting 2 battalions out of say 2/3 units of berserkers, 2/3 units of cultists and a unit of bloodletters?
Well, if you put cultists and daemons in one detachment, it would be neither a Chaos Daemon detachment nor a Chaos Space Marine detachment. So your Troop choices wouldn't get a benefit over non-Troop units when claiming objectives, your Demons wouldn't benefit from their locus,,your Berserkers their Legion trait, you couldn't use Special Detachment rules,... I think, that's all..
You need HQ-units to make detachments anyway. If you want 2 battallions, that would be 4 CSM-HQs.
If you also take 1 CD-HQ,(a Bloodmaster or a Skulltaker is cheap, and buffs the Bloodletters strength/WS) you could run the Bloodletters in a Patrol detachment,
Without the Herald you would have to pay 1 CP to put them into an Auxilliary Support detachment.
Either way, you would then have an official Chaos Daemon detachment, that allows you to use their stratagems on your Herald+unit,. (say Denizens of the Warp), plus, you can then re-roll their charge distance. And you could even contemplate to turn them into a Legion of Skull specialist detachment.
Or, you could just reserve their points, and summon them.via their Daemonic Ritual rule.
ah of course yes! If the bloodletters aren't in a daemons detachment then deepstrike is out the window.
I knew i was missing something! It gets so confusing when you start to try to mess with faction rules etc.I don't think I realised that troops would no longer be obsec tho?
To be honest, I don't really want to be that gamey, I'm not a competitive player just looking to fit all the units i like into the points i have available!
So yeh, i'm thinking two battalions is beyond my reach which is a shame because I know I want to spend at least 4cp before the battle even begins with red butchers, host raptorial and field commander.
Well, how many points are you aiming for? 3x 5 Berserkers, 3x 10 Cultists, 1 Dark Apostle, 1 Exalted Champion, 1 Chaos Lord, 1 Master of Execution, 1x 10 Bloodletters and 1x Bloodmaster would be 747 points, leaving you 253 points to play around with.for a 1000 pts game. 2 Chaos Rhinos, 10 more Bloodletters and 80 points worth of small arms to deal out sounds right to me..
And what do you want a host raptorial for? You got nobody with a jump-pack, that would benefit from it. Oh, and red butchers needs terminator armour to work..
Yeh, I was just thinking about the troops. Would be taking ten terminators for red butchers and a bunch of Warptalons to shut down overwatch. I'd try to drop them near my warlord who'd have the +1 to charge and field commander for +2 to charge for a 6" charge from deep strike.
I generally play 1750pts. Think it'll have to be a world eaters battalion, and a daemon patrol.
Well, with termies and warptalons you almost get to a brigade.
Also, I heavily edited my prior post, because I can't math. Like not at all.
At 1750 points you can easily afford a battallion of bubblewrap cultists, too. Those are about 260 points total, with a Dark Apostle and one more 70-ish points guy. 300, if you fit them out with fancy stuff.
AuntHerbert wrote: Well, with termies and warptalons you almost get to a brigade.
Also, I heavily edited my prior post, because I can't math. Like not at all.
At 1750 points you can easily afford a battallion of bubblewrap cultists, too. Those are about 260 points total, with a Dark Apostle and one more 70-ish points guy. 300, if you fit them out with fancy stuff.
I'd go for twin apostles for bubblewrap cultists support detachment.
Not even for the cultists but for the key elements of the army.
Allbeit the cultists do profit from the LD
Related, but still different topic:
What Legion has the best bubblewrap cultists? I mean Wordbearers are really good at prayers, but my vote is for Alpha Legion.
Forward Operatives means, one unit can even keep up with a transport vehicle on turn 1, Renascent Infiltration (and Tide of Traitors) can keep bouncing one unit per turn all over the place, until the opponent really keeps the entire board locked down.
Scrambled Coordinates keeps enemy deepstrikers at bay, Sabotaged Armoury turns all enemy vehicles into bombs, and with We are Alpharius, there is even a free Warlord trait in the package. Which could be Master of Diversion, for even more cultist-based shell games,or Headhunter with either Hydra's teeth or Viper's bite to snipe enemy characters. I mean, wow, is any other Legion even close to that level of annoyingness?
AuntHerbert wrote: Related, but still different topic:
What Legion has the best bubblewrap cultists? I mean Wordbearers are really good at prayers, but my vote is for Alpha Legion.
Forward Operatives means, one unit can even keep up with a transport vehicle on turn 1, Renascent Infiltration (and Tide of Traitors) can keep bouncing one unit per turn all over the place, until the opponent really keeps the entire board locked down.
Scrambled Coordinates keeps enemy deepstrikers at bay, Sabotaged Armoury turns all enemy vehicles into bombs, and with We are Alpharius, there is even a free Warlord trait in the package. Which could be Master of Diversion, for even more cultist-based shell games,or Headhunter with either Hydra's teeth or Viper's bite to snipe enemy characters. I mean, wow, is any other Legion even close to that level of annoyingness?
All others are worse, AL, if not bombing and stacking -1 to hit often just stagger massive ammounts off damage increases or fundamentally seem to be hindered, cue WE.
Also, if not playing on that AL is a fundamentally shellgame and or reactionary legion, between ambush and scrambled coordinates it's pretty obvious what the gameplan is.
As for Cultists, a Cultist leader dark apostle with ilusion prayer makes for the most annoying cultists, 5++ ld 9 and ap on 6's is actually really annoying.
AuntHerbert wrote: Well, how many points are you aiming for? 3x 5 Berserkers, 3x 10 Cultists, 1 Dark Apostle, 1 Exalted Champion, 1 Chaos Lord, 1 Master of Execution, 1x 10 Bloodletters and 1x Bloodmaster would be 747 points, leaving you 253 points to play around with.for a 1000 pts game. 2 Chaos Rhinos, 10 more Bloodletters and 80 points worth of small arms to deal out sounds right to me..
And what do you want a host raptorial for? You got nobody with a jump-pack, that would benefit from it. Oh, and red butchers needs terminator armour to work..
Why in the world would you get a Master of Execution? The standard Lord will do better in the long run. HQs that have no mobility or aura are useless.
Basically just as a cheap beatstick, to fill an HQ-Slot for the second battalion. 60 pts... I mean a Warpsmith for 35 pts would be even more on the nose, and might make even less sense, fluffwise... well, as mechanic for the Rhinos maybe.
Yeah standard Lord is probably better, but might get pricey, depending on his equipment.
.
AuntHerbert wrote: Basically just as a cheap beatstick, to fill an HQ-Slot for the second battalion. 60 pts... I mean a Warpsmith for 35 pts would be even more on the nose, and might make even less sense, fluffwise... well, as mechanic for the Rhinos maybe.
Yeah standard Lord is probably better, but might get pricey, depending on his equipment.
.
Honest suggestion, get an aspiring, not only is the aura actually usefull for the list and theme but still cheap enough.
An Aspiring? You mean an Aspiring Champion, like in the Sergeant of a CSM unit? Ain't no HQ.
An Exalted Champion? I had already one listed.
.Anything else? I am too dumb to understand, please explain.
Aspiring champion's are amazing, I second that. As alpha legion I give mine the blade of the hydra, he is a monster with both his aura boosting beserkers / posessed but also he is a serious threat himself for the cost. Use a dark apostle to give possessed -1, cast meiasma of pestilence on them, bam. -3 to hit possessed. Take a single large squad of bearkers behind them. Use conceal on them so they can't be targeted. If you have the cp also use the advance movement before t1 to get up the board, yeah its a ton of cp useage BUT its such a threat that your opponent won't have many good answers unless they are running auto hitting or modifier ignoring abilities.
AuntHerbert wrote: An Aspiring? You mean an Aspiring Champion, like in the Sergeant of a CSM unit? Ain't no HQ.
An Exalted Champion? I had already one listed.
.Anything else? I am too dumb to understand, please explain.
Exalted, and yeah and more then one comes in Handy for redundancy.
But that is just a suggestion.
Automatically Appended Next Post: The core issue is with the MoP, that even at his cheap price, he isn't mobile enough and provides not enough impact other wise (because lack of a usefull aura) that hinders him massively.
In a way it's a shame, but all the new HQ' including the MoP or the exalted /aspiring have no mobility at all in a usefull way for 8th.
Azuza001 wrote: As alpha legion I give mine the blade of the hydra,...
Yeah, my Alpha Legion Relic is pretty much determined:
Sorcerer in Terminator Armour with a humble Combi-bolter, Death Hex, Infernal Gaze, Mark of Slaanesh, Stratagem: We are Alpharius for Warlord Trait: Headhunter. and Viper's Bite.
Buckload of CP reserved for Renascent Infiltration and Endless Cacaphony.
Turn 2: Deep Strike, 8 Sniper shots at S 5, AP-3, D2, "See, this is why you can't have nice characters!"
Turn 3: "You failed to kill me, you fools!", pops off into the warp again.
Turn 4: "And this one dies, too"
That's sleek, that's mean, that's Alpha Legion!
Yeah, she single-handedly eats up a Red Corsair's battalion's load of CP, but it's so worth it!
AuntHerbert wrote: Basically just as a cheap beatstick, to fill an HQ-Slot for the second battalion. 60 pts... I mean a Warpsmith for 35 pts would be even more on the nose, and might make even less sense, fluffwise... well, as mechanic for the Rhinos maybe.
Yeah standard Lord is probably better, but might get pricey, depending on his equipment.
.
What's the point of a cheap beat stick that can't beat anything up?
AuntHerbert wrote: Basically just as a cheap beatstick, to fill an HQ-Slot for the second battalion. 60 pts... I mean a Warpsmith for 35 pts would be even more on the nose, and might make even less sense, fluffwise... well, as mechanic for the Rhinos maybe.
Yeah standard Lord is probably better, but might get pricey, depending on his equipment.
.
What's the point of a cheap beat stick that can't beat anything up?
This is the problem with them.
I've been having fun with 2x5 plague marines + lord + Master of executions popping out of a terrax drill with my night lords. Its for sure not competitive but for fun games it works.
AuntHerbert wrote: Basically just as a cheap beatstick, to fill an HQ-Slot for the second battalion. 60 pts... I mean a Warpsmith for 35 pts would be even more on the nose, and might make even less sense, fluffwise... well, as mechanic for the Rhinos maybe.
Yeah standard Lord is probably better, but might get pricey, depending on his equipment.
.
What's the point of a cheap beat stick that can't beat anything up?
This is the problem with them.
Sorry, but that's just stupid. 5 Attacks WS 2+ S8 AP-3 D d3, plus more often than not an extra mortal wound isn't nothing, and that 6" Heroic Intervention and free reroll against characters is a gimmick, that is occassionally useful as well. He hangs around with an Exalted, a Lord and a Priest, so he benefits from a number of buffs.
Name me 3 characters under 120 pts, in 40k that really don't care about recieving him to the face. Will he singlehandedly win the game? Probably not. Can your opponent just ignore him? Definitely not!
Sorry, but that's just stupid. 5 Attacks WS 2+ S8 AP-3 D d3, plus more often than not an extra mortal wound isn't nothing, and that 6" Heroic Intervention and free reroll against characters is a gimmick, that is occassionally useful as well. He hangs around with an Exalted, a Lord and a Priest, so he benefits from a number of buffs.
Name me 3 characters under 120 pts, in 40k that really don't care about recieving him to the face. Will he singlehandedly win the game? Probably not. Can your opponent just ignore him? Definitely not!
Here are two, cant think of a third one right now, but im pretty sure there is one more.
AuntHerbert wrote: Yeah, sure that Archon is looking forward for 5 extra attempts to pop her Shadow field.
And Makari can be pretty much ignored himself.
So, your logic: Cheap characters with invuln saves exist, so melee damage is worthless? Sorry, I don't share that premise.
TBF a common 4++ is allready quite a nuisance to deal with.
Yeah, sure, that must be the reason, why powerfists are no longer used in compettive lists. except... wait... I believe they still are!
Only that this guy, instead of getting a -1 to hit gets an extra attack and a free re-roll. "Can't beat up anything" "not competitive",,, you gotta be kidding me!
What are the other suggestions for replacing the MoE? Take a second Exalted - for redundancy!? Thing is, Exalted has no inv. save either, is 19 pts more expensive with a Powerfist, and if the opponent has to kill this guy first, because he is more of a threat to his characters, and is simply good at getting in the way, that IS redundancy.
Second Dark Apostle or second Lord, I can understand that. They can basically take twice the damage because of their inv, but the 25+ points difference also has to be cut from somewhere in the army.
AuntHerbert wrote: Yeah, sure that Archon is looking forward for 5 extra attempts to pop her Shadow field.
And Makari can be pretty much ignored himself.
So, your logic: Cheap characters with invuln saves exist, so melee damage is worthless? Sorry, I don't share that premise.
That is not what you asked for. You wanted characters that "really don't care about recieving him to the face".
AuntHerbert wrote: Basically just as a cheap beatstick, to fill an HQ-Slot for the second battalion. 60 pts... I mean a Warpsmith for 35 pts would be even more on the nose, and might make even less sense, fluffwise... well, as mechanic for the Rhinos maybe.
Yeah standard Lord is probably better, but might get pricey, depending on his equipment.
.
What's the point of a cheap beat stick that can't beat anything up?
This is the problem with them.
Sorry, but that's just stupid. 5 Attacks WS 2+ S8 AP-3 D d3, plus more often than not an extra mortal wound isn't nothing, and that 6" Heroic Intervention and free reroll against characters is a gimmick, that is occassionally useful as well. He hangs around with an Exalted, a Lord and a Priest, so he benefits from a number of buffs.
Name me 3 characters under 120 pts, in 40k that really don't care about recieving him to the face. Will he singlehandedly win the game? Probably not. Can your opponent just ignore him? Definitely not!
It's really not because he has no movement. I would ignore him 99% of the time.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also any character with a 4++ can pretty safely not care about him.
AuntHerbert wrote: Basically just as a cheap beatstick, to fill an HQ-Slot for the second battalion. 60 pts... I mean a Warpsmith for 35 pts would be even more on the nose, and might make even less sense, fluffwise... well, as mechanic for the Rhinos maybe.
Yeah standard Lord is probably better, but might get pricey, depending on his equipment.
.
What's the point of a cheap beat stick that can't beat anything up?
This is the problem with them.
I've been having fun with 2x5 plague marines + lord + Master of executions popping out of a terrax drill with my night lords. Its for sure not competitive but for fun games it works.
Or you could just use the Exalted Champ which has around the same benefits in melee and helps your dudes. The Master of Executions is one of those pointless foot characters that needs more effort than he's worth.
Or you could just use the Exalted Champ which has around the same benefits in melee and helps your dudes. The Master of Executions is one of those pointless foot characters that needs more effort than he's worth.
plague marines already reroll wounds of 1, it would only benefit the lord and himself. Hes also 10pts more expensive than the master and doesnt come with an actual weapon by default.
Or you could just use the Exalted Champ which has around the same benefits in melee and helps your dudes. The Master of Executions is one of those pointless foot characters that needs more effort than he's worth.
plague marines already reroll wounds of 1, it would only benefit the lord and himself. Hes also 10pts more expensive than the master and doesnt come with an actual weapon by default.
Plague Marines have so few attacks that rerolling just 1s is super pathetic.
Or you could just use the Exalted Champ which has around the same benefits in melee and helps your dudes. The Master of Executions is one of those pointless foot characters that needs more effort than he's worth.
plague marines already reroll wounds of 1, it would only benefit the lord and himself. Hes also 10pts more expensive than the master and doesnt come with an actual weapon by default.
Plague Marines have so few attacks that rerolling just 1s is super pathetic.
Oh wait, i've always assumed that the Champion rerolled only 1's, yeah, then the champion is better for sure a support element.
Plague marines with flails dish out a bunch of attacks tho, thats 4d3 attacks at 6 -2 2 with semi mortal wounds. And the 3 powerfist attacks of the squad leader
Or you could just use the Exalted Champ which has around the same benefits in melee and helps your dudes. The Master of Executions is one of those pointless foot characters that needs more effort than he's worth.
plague marines already reroll wounds of 1, it would only benefit the lord and himself. Hes also 10pts more expensive than the master and doesnt come with an actual weapon by default.
Plague Marines have so few attacks that rerolling just 1s is super pathetic.
Oh wait, i've always assumed that the Champion rerolled only 1's, yeah, then the champion is better for sure a support element.
Plague marines with flails dish out a bunch of attacks tho, thats 4d3 attacks at 6 -2 2 with semi mortal wounds. And the 3 powerfist attacks of the squad leader
That Power Fist isn't considered a Plague Weapon I don't think. So basically all those attacks need that Shred element. Just spend the extra points to give the Exalted a weapon and you'll end up with more danger as a whole.
Is it true that the characters from the re-released Dark Vengeance boxset got new rules? If so, this creates a strange situation as Kranon the Relentless, being a named character, cannon actually use the Sword of the Relentless relic.
I hadn't heard anything like that. Crimson Slaughter aren't really worth using anyway, so some crummy Footlord with a special Sword isn't going to change anything.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: I hadn't heard anything like that. Crimson Slaughter aren't really worth using anyway, so some crummy Footlord with a special Sword isn't going to change anything.
Yeah, their rules aren't that good, I was just curious.
On another note, is AoS' Gothizzar Harvester about the same size as a Maulerfiend? I was thinking of converting one.
On another note, is AoS' Gothizzar Harvester about the same size as a Maulerfiend? I was thinking of converting one.
theyre on the same base and the size seems similar enough (maybe the harvester is a bit bigger), i've seen many people put the fiends climbing on a vehicle with no one batting an eye, i dont think people would complain about such a conversion. And since the maulerfiend doesnt have guns anyway, giving him a larger silhouette would only advantage your opponent.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Technically the Maulerfiend has a shooting weapon but nobody buys it LOL
I mean it isn't a bad weapon, just on a bad plattform really.
Also the initial price of the thing was nuts.
Like ' it's a melta why should i pay the arm and the leg and the liver of points available in my list for it.
At 6 pts it's quite okay tho.
Automatically Appended Next Post: in another note, have started toying around with my cultist theme a bit and wanted to build fnally that "durable" list idea i had kicking about.
It's 1000 pts sofar allbeit i still have 51 points left
Spoiler:
AL Battalion.
HQ Dark apostle, Cult leader, Disciples, Ilusion prayer
Sorcerer Staff, Prescience delightfull agonies.
Troops.
30 Cultists
10 Cultists
10 Cultists.
Battalion:
HQ Daemonprince wings, (not sure on axe or swords) warptime.
Dark Apostle, Darkness prayer.
I guess i could curb the Plague marines and gain 222 pts for obliterators, alternatively i could run 2 Vindicators instead, profiting from -1 to hit or 5++ Or use havocs , conceal makes them stick around longer and a squad with lascannons might solve some AT issues off the list.
On another note, why'd someone ever want to run a predator still, even barebones a vindicator does everything better even a forgefiend is more reliable with it's Hades AC.s
Yeah the Plague Marines honestly offer you nothing in that list. Even curbing them for Berserker Marines for threat saturation to help out the Prince.
Regarding Axe vs Sword, it really only depends if you plan to go for a particular Daemon Weapon relic and his Mark. Otherwise in a smaller game you'll probably want the Sword more compared to killing things deader with the Axe.
In your opinion, do you guys have a fun time just putting what you want on the board? I mean running hybrid helbrutes because you like a sub optimized walker with a fist and a heavy weapon more than a face punching fist and flail brute, or a pure Dakka brute. Or running csm squads because you simply want the troops to be such rather than meat shield cultists. Or putting possessed on the board because Daemonic ally possessed chaos space marines just sounds brutal and awesome, despite the contrary on the tabletop. Maybe you put Dino its in your list because a dark mechanum just sounds cool. Maybe there’s a land raider in your list because it is iconic and it looks awesome. Do any of you put things that gimp your list for the rule of cool and enjoy the games, or do you hate finding yourself either being crushed by a net list or some partially optimized list? Or even factions that don’t even have to try to be competitive?
No. It's all hyper efficient marine nonsense here. It's exploit silly card game combos (massive - to hit stacking, Alpha Legion targeting strats, Night Lords Raptorial tricks) or get blasted off the table.
Pretty much just a hobbyist now. I wonder if this is the long term fate of those who stay in the GW ecosystem too long? Perhaps those I discounted in previous years were just burnt out players.
Yes. But fortunately most of the units I like are at least "ok". I don't run cultists because I want to play Chaos Space Marines not cultists. And I'm even crazy enough to play my hellforged fellblade from time to time, though I have started marking it Nurgle when playing loyalist marines and tau so I can give it -2 against their shooting. Started marking my shooting units Slaanesh against loyalists as well. Doing that really bugs me. Night Lords shouldn't have marks except undivided. But against loyalists you need to use all the tricks.
Gadzilla666 wrote: Yes. But fortunately most of the units I like are at least "ok". I don't run cultists because I want to play Chaos Space Marines not cultists. And I'm even crazy enough to play my hellforged fellblade from time to time, though I have started marking it Nurgle when playing loyalist marines and tau so I can give it -2 against their shooting. Started marking my shooting units Slaanesh against loyalists as well. Doing that really bugs me. Night Lords shouldn't have marks except undivided. But against loyalists you need to use all the tricks.
Don't like doing the mtg combo stuff either.
That’s how I feel too. I am going put my war band on the table and I suppose if I lose to a net list or overwhelmingly to a faction that simply has better toys than me I’ll chock it up to my dudes picking the wrong fight or underestimating their foe... they’ll lick their wounds and hopefully do better next time. Guess we are heretics amongst heretics
macluvin wrote: In your opinion, do you guys have a fun time just putting what you want on the board? I mean running hybrid helbrutes because you like a sub optimized walker with a fist and a heavy weapon more than a face punching fist and flail brute, or a pure Dakka brute. Or running csm squads because you simply want the troops to be such rather than meat shield cultists. Or putting possessed on the board because Daemonic ally possessed chaos space marines just sounds brutal and awesome, despite the contrary on the tabletop. Maybe you put Dino its in your list because a dark mechanum just sounds cool. Maybe there’s a land raider in your list because it is iconic and it looks awesome. Do any of you put things that gimp your list for the rule of cool and enjoy the games, or do you hate finding yourself either being crushed by a net list or some partially optimized list? Or even factions that don’t even have to try to be competitive?
Regarding Hybrid Dreads/Brutes:
The issue with trying to make a unit do several things is that, for the most part, something won't be able to do anything. For example, let's take the regular Dread vs the Ven Dread and wanting it to be multitasking. Anytime a Vendread moves, it suffers much less when firing a weapon, as every option they both get is a Heavy Weapon. However, with that natural BS2+, doesn't it make sense to take advantage of those heavy weapons in general instead of running at the enemy 8" at a time? Meanwhile, an Ironclad doesn't gain much carrying the regular Dread Fist with Hammer/Chainfist, BUT you can take a Hurricane Bolter and not lose accuracy running at the enemy. Meanwhile meanwhile, the regular Dread has nothing going for it being multitasking, but since you aren't using the BS2+, just run it at the enemy with two fists and Storm Bolters.
In the case of the Helbrute then, you at least have a couple more melee options, and its shooting output is pretty low even if it is cheap. So if you're gonna bother with them, might as well go fully melee and just run it mindlessly at the opponent. THAT SAID, you're more likely to have it live and get points back just sitting and shooting compared to it running and dying. Even when cheap, there's just no amount of threat saturation you can do that the opponent can't quickly kill them.
I was talking about just putting stuff in the list because you like it that way over the rules favoring it with advantages. Or because it fits your vision of your army better than a more capable or efficient unit. The only unit that is so crappy I wouldn’t is possessed but if the models were Cooler like the greater possessed... Or maybe if I just looked at someone’s spare spawn bits..
It sucks that buff bubbles are 6", and crawlers explode 6" 
