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My general idea was to try and maximize the number of units who are benefiting from the -1 to hit while still throwing out decent firepower. I was amazed at how cheap 4 Autocannon Havocs were considering how much damage and range that they have.

 Reivax26 wrote:
My general idea was to try and maximize the number of units who are benefiting from the -1 to hit while still throwing out decent firepower. I was amazed at how cheap 4 Autocannon Havocs were considering how much damage and range that they have.

Hmm a durability build?

Given our abilities in pre game movement and the Strategems making a gunline style list isn't really the worst idea. Put in a good amount of damage 2 and higher weapons and quite a few models.

 Reivax26 wrote:
I am getting ready to jump onto the Chaos train. I am going Alpha Legion as I find them entertaining and I have heard that they can be competitive.

Any suggestions on what models are absolute must haves?

There’s some brutal Possessed horde builds that do rely on a load of moving parts and highly specific rules interactions

for chaff remove chaos have no issues at all, Slaanesh termies, noise marines, scarab occult termies, rubric with infenal fusilade
lord discos cant kill big hordes but dont let them play as they want, hardly a horde can kill a LoD,i played it many times against hordes, for them can be a pain in the ass to remove, save 2++ inv 5++/4++ can be -2 to be hit in cac(if alpha legion) 12 wounds, LoD is one of best models chaos can actually deploy on table.

 Reivax26 wrote:
Given our abilities in pre game movement and the Strategems making a gunline style list isn't really the worst idea. Put in a good amount of damage 2 and higher weapons and quite a few models.

You could attempt a classical Hammer and anvil build, how competitive that is i can not answer but i'd imagine it can be done.

Assuming you want to maximize -1 to hit units i'd assume you'd want to field atleast a battalion of csm marines.

I guess a 20 man setup would be beneficial for such a strategy.
2x5 with AC and 1 x 10 with 2 AC.
For Hq i'd assume you'd pick atleast one Apostle with -1 prayer.
A slaanesh sorcerer, for prescience and the 5+++ prayer.


Then you could be using the trait to shuffle up to 3 units in your deployment in form off a Lord.
Add in another Dark apostle with ilusion prayer (5++ in a 6" area.)
another 15 CSM with AC.
¨and 3 vindicators. , The lord the DA and the vindicators make for a castle that can be easily moved around and demolishers with a 5++ are actually pretty sweet, altough i think overall it'd be better if you go for another -1 to hit prayer.

The anvil then would be a Terminator lord,
3 Obliterators.
10 terminators with 2 reapers and cb chainaxe.
Mind you that is just a rough estimation on how to build a durable list.

Of course you could replace the vindicators with Havocs with AC's 110 pts for 4 AC's isn't bad.



You could also skip marines and go for a cult leader ilusionist DA surrounded by AL cultists in the specialist detachment. 5++ doubles their save and can't be ignored really whilest the cultis help praying and you can congaline a big ammount of squads around him that profit from Ap-1 on 6's (would also be fluffy somewhat for AL.) For that build however you'd go into wierd territory, due to it beeing partially modled on my experiences off my attempt at making noctiliths work.

Anyone have any luck with Emperor's Children? Their legion trait runs counter to Noise Marines with sonic weapons. I've considered running squads geared for close combat but at that point why not run World Eaters. If I go gun line, I believe I could more mileage out of Iron Warriors with heavy weapons and ignoring cover (not to mention way easier to paint). Also, lining up that many Noise Marines and leaving them open to shooting seems inevitable. Any suggestions would be appreciated.

The4thEnemy wrote:
Anyone have any luck with Emperor's Children? Their legion trait runs counter to Noise Marines with sonic weapons. I've considered running squads geared for close combat but at that point why not run World Eaters. If I go gun line, I believe I could more mileage out of Iron Warriors with heavy weapons and ignoring cover (not to mention way easier to paint). Also, lining up that many Noise Marines and leaving them open to shooting seems inevitable. Any suggestions would be appreciated.

EC terminators with combi plasma and chain axes are a nasty little unit.

Sonic weapons don't suffer from shooting on the move, so, especially with lots of terrain, the Nice Marines should have an easier time concentrating their fire than IW, who want to fight from static positions. Endless Cacaphony with Excruciating Frequencies helps with that.
For the melee part, well your army has HQ and Elite slots, too.

Also the question "Why would I take a balanced force, if I can't outshoot the shooty specialist and can't outfight the melee specialists?" is a bit loaded.

EC deepstrikeing terminators and warp talons work great for melee. Honour that prince.

EC have a lot of potential on the Possessed Bomb, albeit with a lot of moving parts

You will need:

- DA detachment including Contorted Epitome
- Possessed horde
- Warptimer (WB or TS named hero are best for reliability)
- the VA Possessed detachment: Mutated Invigoration, Cursed Earth, Shepherd
- a bunch of CP

Optional:

- Delightful Agonies & Fab Bill
- Exalted Champion
- DP

In your first turn, Warptime the Possessed into the enemy’s face. Use Tri-pointing and /or Fiends to take hostages

In the following Enemy turn, have Bill buff them - DA will negate 1/3 of the backdraft. If your opponent charges you, you’ve gained +1A again. If they don’t, you get to eat them in their own turn.

In your following turn, if you’re still in close combat, have Epitome cast Frenzy for MOAR PUNCHING

I like it. I'd completely forgot about the Primogenitor. My main force is Alpha Legion, in which I run 40 possessed so I was looking for something a little new. I ended up considering an EC list with, of all things, Mutilators. On average they get -2 rend and 2 damage. Buffing them with the extra attacks when they kill something and possibly another extra attack if they manage to wound on 6 while near a Slaanesh character seemed pretty good if you can get all the moving parts to work.

OK, I like the Wordbearer's fancy new toys and want to go check them out. Their Legion trait sucks, but who cares, I want to take a taste of that deliciously cheesy Chaos soup, anyway, Daemon detachment sounds quite fitting for a Wordbearer list.
Noooow.... around here most people play with max 3 detachments. Which leaves me one more detachment to play around with

Options I see:
-A second Daemon attachment, so I can have Daemons from two different gods, and still get their loci
-a detachment, that let's me take a lord of war - probably not, as it costs a lot of money and points. Although....
-a detachment, that let's me take fortifications? There is that Nurgle tree to think about, and I didn't even look what the other gods, or the CSM themselves get.
-a mini batallion, mostly as a CP pump.

Mini batallion wise:

-I saw that Dark Legion has a bit of cheese to offer, if I make one of their HQs the Warleader, I can get some extra CP out of him, and then use one of those CPs to still make a Wordbearer Apostle into a Shepherd. That's not a bad deal, at all, and means my real Warlord can go hide under his bed, without taking too much away from the army..

-Alpha Legion has two very specific tricks up their sleeves, that will still work well in a soup. Deepstrike denial within 12" would work well with the 3 units of cultists, that will be mostly there to screen the real army, and +3 on explosion checks for enemy vehicles are also a neat gimmick. Off course, both of those shenanigans won't do much work against all opponents.

-Emperor's Children would be noise, if I drop a few more points beyond the base unholy 32. Their Daemon Princes are just superior to the Daemon Army brethren, even without Flawless Perfection, and I think I could still upgrade the Troop choices to Noise Marines, even as part of a soup.

What do you guys think is the strongest option? Or are there some even nicer gimmicks to have somewhere I didn't look?

As a WB DK player, I find mono DK agenda to work best. You can plan a two pronged attack with focussed auras, but then you put it on the battlefield, and suddenly your DP is flying from one side of the battlefield to the other to hit a key unit, your horde is having to occupy a key objective, and your Obliterators have to drop miles away from a friendly same-god aura to take out a Knight. DK already has internal compatibility blind spots, with CSM buffs that can’t be used on daemons and whatnot. WBs might be polytheist but I Forge a narrative of this one force having been chosen by a deity and benig oart of a wider grand army of all gods.

If I’m fielding a third detachment in a DK list, it’s usually a monotheist Legion. A DG outriders is an amazing compliment to a jamboree of LDs & Oblits

I am not so much thinking about a two-pronged attack, but about using Daemon buffs without slowing down the CSM chars by having to summon all of them.

Atm I am mostly eyeing Slaanesh, his Daemons got some pretty spicy psychic powers (Symphony of Pain, Hysterical Frenzy) and stratagems (Aura of Acquiescence, Locus of Grace), and the nice Locus of Swiftness, which can all dial up Possessed and Obliterators to 11.
Also, there are the Infernal Enrapturess, Contorted Epitomes, possibly the Viceleader and definitely the Fiends to help out, screw over every enemy attempt to use their Psykers and keep people stuck in melee.
I might bring Daemonettes just to upgrade the vanguard to a full battalion, but it will depend on how many points I got left.

I wasn't too happy with the available Possessed minis, but now that I decided to use Sisters Zephyrim squads as basis for Possessed (nothing too hentai, probably just a head swap and some Slaanesh runes on the armor) and Blood Angels Sanguinary Guards for Greater Possessed I am totally fired up. It will look great (if I can do it right) and totally fit the Wordbearer fluff of subverting the Imperial Cult.
I am seeing a lot of white and golden armor with just a touch of pink coming up on my WB army...

You are right to point out the limits to Wordbearer buffs, though. The main problem for me isn't that Daemon Army allies can't be buffed, but that EC Daemon Princes won't profit from WB Greater Possessed either. If I bring them, they would have to operate independently under their own considerable power. In the end its a sliding scale between EC and WB,... Daemon Princes, Greater Possessed, Obliterators, both have their own strengths in their own right in both Legions, and the main synergy would be, that both can profit from Slaanesh Daemons buffs.

The sneakiest decision would probably be Black Legion with some cheap cultists and a coward Warlord as hidden power behind the throne instead of EC. Fluffy AND cheesy, as it should be with Chaos.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 lindsay40k wrote:
Obliterators

Oh, btw, I loove your Obliterator minis, and I am totally try to rip them off, although I'll probably use black as base color. These guys are totally not gonna pretend to be Imperial Cult, they'll be the dark secret hidden away in the dungeons under the cloister.

Thinking about my next project and toying with sticking with chaos and building a small worldeaters warband. I'd like to roll in some khorne daemons possibly. The other thing I'm questioning is while board control will come from me basically advancing everything at my enemy, I need something to hold objectives behind my attacking frontline. Toying with double battalion, 3 units of berserkers and 3 cultists?
Bloodletters are another great choice for troops but again have similar issues as berserkers don't particulalry want them stood on a backfield objective.
I'm wondering if i should look at having a generic khorne battalion. I would lose the legion traits but I'm starting to question with hateful assault my berserkers are already getting 3+1 attacks each and then fighting twice. Do i really need that +1 attack if i broke the worldeaters detachment with a unit of bloodletters?
Or i think i can take cultists and bloodletters in a khorne detachment?
Whats the best way of getting 2 battalions out of say 2/3 units of berserkers, 2/3 units of cultists and a unit of bloodletters?

Well, if you put cultists and daemons in one detachment, it would be neither a Chaos Daemon detachment nor a Chaos Space Marine detachment. So your Troop choices wouldn't get a benefit over non-Troop units when claiming objectives, your Demons wouldn't benefit from their locus,,your Berserkers their Legion trait, you couldn't use Special Detachment rules,... I think, that's all..

You need HQ-units to make detachments anyway. If you want 2 battallions, that would be 4 CSM-HQs.
If you also take 1 CD-HQ,(a Bloodmaster or a Skulltaker is cheap, and buffs the Bloodletters strength/WS) you could run the Bloodletters in a Patrol detachment,
Without the Herald you would have to pay 1 CP to put them into an Auxilliary Support detachment.
Either way, you would then have an official Chaos Daemon detachment, that allows you to use their stratagems on your Herald+unit,. (say Denizens of the Warp), plus, you can then re-roll their charge distance. And you could even contemplate to turn them into a Legion of Skull specialist detachment.

Or, you could just reserve their points, and summon them.via their Daemonic Ritual rule.

ah of course yes! If the bloodletters aren't in a daemons detachment then deepstrike is out the window.

I knew i was missing something! It gets so confusing when you start to try to mess with faction rules etc.I don't think I realised that troops would no longer be obsec tho?

To be honest, I don't really want to be that gamey, I'm not a competitive player just looking to fit all the units i like into the points i have available!

So yeh, i'm thinking two battalions is beyond my reach which is a shame because I know I want to spend at least 4cp before the battle even begins with red butchers, host raptorial and field commander.

Well, how many points are you aiming for? 3x 5 Berserkers, 3x 10 Cultists, 1 Dark Apostle, 1 Exalted Champion, 1 Chaos Lord, 1 Master of Execution, 1x 10 Bloodletters and 1x Bloodmaster would be 747 points, leaving you 253 points to play around with.for a 1000 pts game. 2 Chaos Rhinos, 10 more Bloodletters and 80 points worth of small arms to deal out sounds right to me..

And what do you want a host raptorial for? You got nobody with a jump-pack, that would benefit from it. Oh, and red butchers needs terminator armour to work..

Yeh, I was just thinking about the troops. Would be taking ten terminators for red butchers and a bunch of Warptalons to shut down overwatch. I'd try to drop them near my warlord who'd have the +1 to charge and field commander for +2 to charge for a 6" charge from deep strike.
I generally play 1750pts. Think it'll have to be a world eaters battalion, and a daemon patrol.

Well, with termies and warptalons you almost get to a brigade.

Also, I heavily edited my prior post, because I can't math. Like not at all.

At 1750 points you can easily afford a battallion of bubblewrap cultists, too. Those are about 260 points total, with a Dark Apostle and one more 70-ish points guy. 300, if you fit them out with fancy stuff.

 AuntHerbert wrote:
Well, with termies and warptalons you almost get to a brigade.

Also, I heavily edited my prior post, because I can't math. Like not at all.

At 1750 points you can easily afford a battallion of bubblewrap cultists, too. Those are about 260 points total, with a Dark Apostle and one more 70-ish points guy. 300, if you fit them out with fancy stuff.

I'd go for twin apostles for bubblewrap cultists support detachment.

Not even for the cultists but for the key elements of the army.
Allbeit the cultists do profit from the LD

Related, but still different topic:
What Legion has the best bubblewrap cultists? I mean Wordbearers are really good at prayers, but my vote is for Alpha Legion.

Forward Operatives means, one unit can even keep up with a transport vehicle on turn 1, Renascent Infiltration (and Tide of Traitors) can keep bouncing one unit per turn all over the place, until the opponent really keeps the entire board locked down.
Scrambled Coordinates keeps enemy deepstrikers at bay, Sabotaged Armoury turns all enemy vehicles into bombs, and with We are Alpharius, there is even a free Warlord trait in the package. Which could be Master of Diversion, for even more cultist-based shell games,or Headhunter with either Hydra's teeth or Viper's bite to snipe enemy characters. I mean, wow, is any other Legion even close to that level of annoyingness?

 AuntHerbert wrote:
Related, but still different topic:
What Legion has the best bubblewrap cultists? I mean Wordbearers are really good at prayers, but my vote is for Alpha Legion.

Forward Operatives means, one unit can even keep up with a transport vehicle on turn 1, Renascent Infiltration (and Tide of Traitors) can keep bouncing one unit per turn all over the place, until the opponent really keeps the entire board locked down.
Scrambled Coordinates keeps enemy deepstrikers at bay, Sabotaged Armoury turns all enemy vehicles into bombs, and with We are Alpharius, there is even a free Warlord trait in the package. Which could be Master of Diversion, for even more cultist-based shell games,or Headhunter with either Hydra's teeth or Viper's bite to snipe enemy characters. I mean, wow, is any other Legion even close to that level of annoyingness?

All others are worse, AL, if not bombing and stacking -1 to hit often just stagger massive ammounts off damage increases or fundamentally seem to be hindered, cue WE.

Also, if not playing on that AL is a fundamentally shellgame and or reactionary legion, between ambush and scrambled coordinates it's pretty obvious what the gameplan is.

As for Cultists, a Cultist leader dark apostle with ilusion prayer makes for the most annoying cultists, 5++ ld 9 and ap on 6's is actually really annoying.

 AuntHerbert wrote:
Well, how many points are you aiming for? 3x 5 Berserkers, 3x 10 Cultists, 1 Dark Apostle, 1 Exalted Champion, 1 Chaos Lord, 1 Master of Execution, 1x 10 Bloodletters and 1x Bloodmaster would be 747 points, leaving you 253 points to play around with.for a 1000 pts game. 2 Chaos Rhinos, 10 more Bloodletters and 80 points worth of small arms to deal out sounds right to me..

And what do you want a host raptorial for? You got nobody with a jump-pack, that would benefit from it. Oh, and red butchers needs terminator armour to work..

Why in the world would you get a Master of Execution? The standard Lord will do better in the long run. HQs that have no mobility or aura are useless.

Basically just as a cheap beatstick, to fill an HQ-Slot for the second battalion. 60 pts... I mean a Warpsmith for 35 pts would be even more on the nose, and might make even less sense, fluffwise... well, as mechanic for the Rhinos maybe.
Yeah standard Lord is probably better, but might get pricey, depending on his equipment.
.

 AuntHerbert wrote:
Basically just as a cheap beatstick, to fill an HQ-Slot for the second battalion. 60 pts... I mean a Warpsmith for 35 pts would be even more on the nose, and might make even less sense, fluffwise... well, as mechanic for the Rhinos maybe.
Yeah standard Lord is probably better, but might get pricey, depending on his equipment.
.

Honest suggestion, get an aspiring, not only is the aura actually usefull for the list and theme but still cheap enough.

An Aspiring? You mean an Aspiring Champion, like in the Sergeant of a CSM unit? Ain't no HQ.
An Exalted Champion? I had already one listed.
.Anything else? I am too dumb to understand, please explain.

Aspiring champion's are amazing, I second that. As alpha legion I give mine the blade of the hydra, he is a monster with both his aura boosting beserkers / posessed but also he is a serious threat himself for the cost. Use a dark apostle to give possessed -1, cast meiasma of pestilence on them, bam. -3 to hit possessed. Take a single large squad of bearkers behind them. Use conceal on them so they can't be targeted. If you have the cp also use the advance movement before t1 to get up the board, yeah its a ton of cp useage BUT its such a threat that your opponent won't have many good answers unless they are running auto hitting or modifier ignoring abilities.

 AuntHerbert wrote:
An Aspiring? You mean an Aspiring Champion, like in the Sergeant of a CSM unit? Ain't no HQ.
An Exalted Champion? I had already one listed.
.Anything else? I am too dumb to understand, please explain.

Exalted, and yeah and more then one comes in Handy for redundancy.

But that is just a suggestion.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
The core issue is with the MoP, that even at his cheap price, he isn't mobile enough and provides not enough impact other wise (because lack of a usefull aura) that hinders him massively.
In a way it's a shame, but all the new HQ' including the MoP or the exalted /aspiring have no mobility at all in a usefull way for 8th.