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Yoyoyo wrote:
I said less expensive.

Helbrutes are there for economy before all else.

Maulerfiends also don't strike at WS3.

Maulerfiends don't need to strike at WS3 because of weight of attacks + lashes.

Also if you're just Helbrutes for them to exist...why get them at all? They're slow as molasses, so even keeping one melee weapon on them is bad. At that point just buy two guns.

Because they're cheap and versatile, which they would no longer be if they had two guns.

- If I want it to move fast and assault something, I have Warptime and Diabolic Strength.
- If I need it to shoot at a target 36" away, I have Prescience and Fire Frenzy.
- If I just want to sit on a midfield objective and secure a VP, it's cheaper than a Rhino and a CSM squad.

Can a Maulerfiend cast Warptime on itself? Well if not, I have to save points somewhere.

Loyalist Space Marines don't even use their basic Dreads with one gun one fist. They get a TON more benefits as well. You are seriously suggesting Chaos Marines do that. You're also suggesting using fire frenzy and casting presence on a one gun unit. That's honestly hilarious to me.

Yoyoyo wrote:
Because they're cheap and versatile, which they would no longer be if they had two guns.

- If I want it to move fast and assault something, I have Warptime and Diabolic Strength.
- If I need it to shoot at a target 36" away, I have Prescience and Fire Frenzy.
- If I just want to sit on a midfield objective and secure a VP, it's cheaper than a Rhino and a CSM squad.

Can a Maulerfiend cast Warptime on itself? Well if not, I have to save points somewhere.

What unit 36" away is ALSO the closest unit?

 JNAProductions wrote:
What unit 36" away is ALSO the closest unit?

Probably just a troop. Since you can't choose FF targets, you want something useful against multiple targets (like the HB) and with decent range. Not much point putting Lascannons into Guardsmen.

Slayer-Fan123: Loyalist Dreadnoughts are a *terrible* comparison. They don't get Warptime, they don't get Diabolical Strength, they don't get Crazed, so they don't function the same way. SM also have a much stronger troops slot and can take 3dmg hammers on their Sergeants! As I said before -- find me a CHEAPER option in the CSM codex. Spoiler: you won't.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
You're also suggesting using fire frenzy and casting presence on a one gun unit.

Absolutely. You're not going to take them to kill Knights but you have 12x HB and 8x Combi shots on-call to take a troop off a scoring objective in the lategame. Use them opportunistically. Hide them, chase down Intercessors without CC weapons, dump cheap shooting where it's useful, advance onto objectives and score VP with them. Do you think I'm advising you to base an entire army's strategy around a unit that costs less than 100pts? Come on, man.

They wouldn't work in ITC due to the nature of the mission format but they're really fun to play in casual games.

Who would be using a HB, when you get access to the equally priced reaper autocannon?

BTW, a hellbrute with reaper and ML is preety cheap for a lot of dakka.

Any weapon option will work as long as it's cheap, I think. The point to watch out for is if Helbrutes get too high profile, they just evaporate. You really want them to fly under the radar so they only take chip damage (to set up Crazed rolls) or so you can jump an unsuspecting target with D-Srength and Warptime.

I like the HB/Fist/Combi as the Helbrute can murder T3 infantry with its guns, and deal with more elite units (Primaris, Custodes, etc.) in combat.

As far as pure fire support goes, I couldn't say but then they're competing against Contemptors (more durable, BS2+, good Invul save, etc), which I think are much better qualities for a gun platform.

Maulerfiends dont care about ws4 because of the demonic engine strat, the one that for 1cp let's you reroll failed hits and wounds vs a target. I have had incredible luck with a maulerfiend of slaanesh and a herald of slaanesh on a steed. T1 mauler advances, warptime if you need it, keep with within 6" of herald, t1 charge with reroll hits and wounds. It will kill things very easily and buy you the time you need to get the rest of your army into range for t2.

Yoyoyo wrote:
Any weapon option will work as long as it's cheap, I think. The point to watch out for is if Helbrutes get too high profile, they just evaporate. You really want them to fly under the radar so they only take chip damage (to set up Crazed rolls) or so you can jump an unsuspecting target with D-Srength and Warptime.

I like the HB/Fist/Combi as the Helbrute can murder T3 infantry with its guns, and deal with more elite units (Primaris, Custodes, etc.) in combat.

As far as pure fire support goes, I couldn't say but then they're competing against Contemptors (more durable, BS2+, good Invul save, etc), which I think are much better qualities for a gun platform.

TBH, for 90 pts, the Reaper ML version, is frankly worth it.
Also, it get's ignored because "it's just a Hellbrute" more often then not, not a contemptor, or as imposing as a Butcher Cannon decimtor or it's dread brothers.

And honestly who's gonna waste Warptime on a Helbrute? I'm sorry but that's just bad 40k. There's TONS of better targets to use it on.
Outside pure shooting, they're just bad, period.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
And honestly who's gonna waste Warptime on a Helbrute? I'm sorry but that's just bad 40k. There's TONS of better targets to use it on.
Outside pure shooting, they're just bad, period.

Nah. They have a great CC weapon and good WS, so they're very useful to have in the later turns of the game when armies are getting mixed up together and you're out of CP.

Like 'Not Online!!!' was saying, the attitude is "they're just a Helbrute" so they won't be targeted. And as Azuza001 said, there's much more imposing T1 door-kickers. Who want to prioritize shooting 90-100pt Helbrutes when a Daemonforge'd Maulerfiend with Herald backup is already rampaging through their lines? Nobody.

There's a place for economy units. Tiger Tanks might have been vastly superior to M4 Shermans on a 1-to-1 basis, but that's irrelevant when the latter outnumbers the former by something like 2000 to 1.

https://www.discovermagazine.com/technology/good-enough-tanks-won-wwii wrote:Sometimes a "good enough" military technology can achieve victory over better military technologies. Such a fact probably gave very little comfort to the five-man crews of U.S. Sherman tanks who faced an uphill battle against more powerful German tanks during World War II. British tank crews gave Sherman tanks the unflattering nickname "Ronson" — a grim reference to the Ronson cigarette lighter's ad slogan "lights first every time" and the unfortunate fact that Sherman tanks often burned after taking just one hit. But that did not stop the U.S. from supplying tens of thousands of Sherman tanks to U.S., British, Canadian and other Allied forces, tipping the scales against the smaller numbers of elite German tanks on World War II battlefields.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
And honestly who's gonna waste Warptime on a Helbrute? I'm sorry but that's just bad 40k. There's TONS of better targets to use it on.
Outside pure shooting, they're just bad, period.

in a pinch when a frontline breaks and you aboslutely positively need to tie something down?

Also dual lasher hellbrutes are not too be underestimated.

Yoyoyo wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
And honestly who's gonna waste Warptime on a Helbrute? I'm sorry but that's just bad 40k. There's TONS of better targets to use it on.
Outside pure shooting, they're just bad, period.

Nah. They have a great CC weapon and good WS, so they're very useful to have in the later turns of the game when armies are getting mixed up together and you're out of CP.

Like 'Not Online!!!' was saying, the attitude is "they're just a Helbrute" so they won't be targeted. And as Azuza001 said, there's much more imposing T1 door-kickers. Who want to prioritize shooting 90-100pt Helbrutes when a Daemonforge'd Maulerfiend with Herald backup is already rampaging through their lines? Nobody.

There's a place for economy units. Tiger Tanks might have been vastly superior to M4 Shermans on a 1-to-1 basis, but that's irrelevant when the latter outnumbers the former by something like 2000 to 1.

https://www.discovermagazine.com/technology/good-enough-tanks-won-wwii wrote:Sometimes a "good enough" military technology can achieve victory over better military technologies. Such a fact probably gave very little comfort to the five-man crews of U.S. Sherman tanks who faced an uphill battle against more powerful German tanks during World War II. British tank crews gave Sherman tanks the unflattering nickname "Ronson" — a grim reference to the Ronson cigarette lighter's ad slogan "lights first every time" and the unfortunate fact that Sherman tanks often burned after taking just one hit. But that did not stop the U.S. from supplying tens of thousands of Sherman tanks to U.S., British, Canadian and other Allied forces, tipping the scales against the smaller numbers of elite German tanks on World War II battlefields.

You know what's better than "economy" units? Not taking them in the first place! Also Helbrutes aren't outnumbering any target to be dangerous in any manner.
Remember you're not forced to take something in your Elite slot!

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Yoyoyo wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
And honestly who's gonna waste Warptime on a Helbrute? I'm sorry but that's just bad 40k. There's TONS of better targets to use it on.
Outside pure shooting, they're just bad, period.

Nah. They have a great CC weapon and good WS, so they're very useful to have in the later turns of the game when armies are getting mixed up together and you're out of CP.

Like 'Not Online!!!' was saying, the attitude is "they're just a Helbrute" so they won't be targeted. And as Azuza001 said, there's much more imposing T1 door-kickers. Who want to prioritize shooting 90-100pt Helbrutes when a Daemonforge'd Maulerfiend with Herald backup is already rampaging through their lines? Nobody.

There's a place for economy units. Tiger Tanks might have been vastly superior to M4 Shermans on a 1-to-1 basis, but that's irrelevant when the latter outnumbers the former by something like 2000 to 1.

https://www.discovermagazine.com/technology/good-enough-tanks-won-wwii wrote:Sometimes a "good enough" military technology can achieve victory over better military technologies. Such a fact probably gave very little comfort to the five-man crews of U.S. Sherman tanks who faced an uphill battle against more powerful German tanks during World War II. British tank crews gave Sherman tanks the unflattering nickname "Ronson" — a grim reference to the Ronson cigarette lighter's ad slogan "lights first every time" and the unfortunate fact that Sherman tanks often burned after taking just one hit. But that did not stop the U.S. from supplying tens of thousands of Sherman tanks to U.S., British, Canadian and other Allied forces, tipping the scales against the smaller numbers of elite German tanks on World War II battlefields.

You know what's better than "economy" units? Not taking them in the first place! Also Helbrutes aren't outnumbering any target to be dangerous in any manner.
Remember you're not forced to take something in your Elite slot!

and let's say you have 90 pts, in what do you invest these?

Not Online!!! wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
And honestly who's gonna waste Warptime on a Helbrute? I'm sorry but that's just bad 40k. There's TONS of better targets to use it on.
Outside pure shooting, they're just bad, period.

in a pinch when a frontline breaks and you aboslutely positively need to tie something down?

Also dual lasher hellbrutes are not too be underestimated.

If the opponent is at the frontline that's gonna be close for where the supposed 1 gun 1 fist Helbrute would be in the first place.
Also for not many more points you can get Maulerfiends with Lashes instead, and they actually synergize with one of our best units (Disco Lords) and Daemon allies. Anything close to being a melee Helbrute simply has no place. Loyalists can do it a million times better (and on a Ven Dread for WS/BS2+) and it's still not done.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Not Online!!! wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Yoyoyo wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
And honestly who's gonna waste Warptime on a Helbrute? I'm sorry but that's just bad 40k. There's TONS of better targets to use it on.
Outside pure shooting, they're just bad, period.

Nah. They have a great CC weapon and good WS, so they're very useful to have in the later turns of the game when armies are getting mixed up together and you're out of CP.

Like 'Not Online!!!' was saying, the attitude is "they're just a Helbrute" so they won't be targeted. And as Azuza001 said, there's much more imposing T1 door-kickers. Who want to prioritize shooting 90-100pt Helbrutes when a Daemonforge'd Maulerfiend with Herald backup is already rampaging through their lines? Nobody.

There's a place for economy units. Tiger Tanks might have been vastly superior to M4 Shermans on a 1-to-1 basis, but that's irrelevant when the latter outnumbers the former by something like 2000 to 1.

https://www.discovermagazine.com/technology/good-enough-tanks-won-wwii wrote:Sometimes a "good enough" military technology can achieve victory over better military technologies. Such a fact probably gave very little comfort to the five-man crews of U.S. Sherman tanks who faced an uphill battle against more powerful German tanks during World War II. British tank crews gave Sherman tanks the unflattering nickname "Ronson" — a grim reference to the Ronson cigarette lighter's ad slogan "lights first every time" and the unfortunate fact that Sherman tanks often burned after taking just one hit. But that did not stop the U.S. from supplying tens of thousands of Sherman tanks to U.S., British, Canadian and other Allied forces, tipping the scales against the smaller numbers of elite German tanks on World War II battlefields.

You know what's better than "economy" units? Not taking them in the first place! Also Helbrutes aren't outnumbering any target to be dangerous in any manner.
Remember you're not forced to take something in your Elite slot!

and let's say you have 90 pts, in what do you invest these?

Spawn? Cultists? Bikers? Random Sorcerer or Dark Apostle (though the latter ain't exactly good overall)?

You had a Dark Apostle in a Possessed list that went 6-0 at LVO in the main tournament, and which placed 13th overall.

"Ain't exactly good" you say?

If you don't understand the concept of synergy, your blather is not useful. It's just opinionated

Spawn? Cultists? Bikers? Random Sorcerer or Dark Apostle (though the latter ain't exactly good overall)?

SPawn. I mean at 20 pts they are actually decent, but they also not really synergize. also too swingy imo.

Cultists: 22 cultists and a stubber, ehh, if you got the HQ you could go for another Bat, okay maybee.

Random sorcerer: TBH a random sorcerer more is a bit iffy and highly dependant on your list no?

DA: Tbf a cult leader DA is actually quite a nice choice surprisingly, especially if you give him the ilusion prayer.

Not Online!!! wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
And honestly who's gonna waste Warptime on a Helbrute? I'm sorry but that's just bad 40k. There's TONS of better targets to use it on.
Outside pure shooting, they're just bad, period.

in a pinch when a frontline breaks and you aboslutely positively need to tie something down?

Also dual lasher hellbrutes are not too be underestimated.

Warptime on a helbrute with 12 melee attacks at WS3 S8 AP-2 D2 (dual power scourge) is not what i would call waste.

I always think about them in the context of the lategame.

If most of the min-maxed "good" units are dead and you need something that has to do the following:

- finish off a bracketed T7-T8 vehicle
- shoot down 10x Cultists at 18-24" trying for an objective
- remove MSU Intercessors from a point they want to defend

That's a lot to ask of a unit costing less than <100pts. So I think they offer pretty good value for the price point they're at.

Yoyoyo wrote:
I always think about them in the context of the lategame.

If most of the min-maxed "good" units are dead and you need something that has to do the following:

- finish off a bracketed T7-T8 vehicle
- shoot down 10x Cultists at 18-24" trying for an objective
- remove MSU Intercessors from a point they want to defend

That's a lot to ask of a unit costing less than <100pts. So I think they offer pretty good value for the price point they're at.

Except it isn't a unit doing that for 100 points. You have to pour resources into doing any of those things. If you didn't base your list around taking them in the first place, that's suddenly no longer an issue.


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Yoyoyo wrote:
You had a Dark Apostle in a Possessed list that went 6-0 at LVO in the main tournament, and which placed 13th overall.

"Ain't exactly good" you say?

If you don't understand the concept of synergy, your blather is not useful. It's just opinionated

"Something won once so it's good!" is the very definition of ignoring statistics and trends. And no I do understand synergy which is why I said to pay the little extra for the Maulerfiend. THAT can actually get synergy with all the good stuff.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
And no I do understand synergy which is why I said to pay the little extra for the Maulerfiend.

You clearly don't. As I said, I want a multi-role economy unit for the lategame to score VP for me and bully smaller units.

And I want it for <100pts, so I don't have to cut into very worthwhile upgrades like Thunder Hammers on Smash Lords.

As I said -- find a better option, at the same price or cheaper. You can't ignore relevant points values any more than you can simply run lists that bust agreed-on limits.

Yoyoyo wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
And no I do understand synergy which is why I said to pay the little extra for the Maulerfiend.

You clearly don't. As I said, I want a multi-role economy unit for the lategame to score VP for me and bully smaller units.

And I want it for <100pts, so I don't have to cut into very worthwhile upgrades like Thunder Hammers on Smash Lords.

As I said -- find a better option, at the same price or cheaper. You can't ignore relevant points values any more than you can simply run lists that bust agreed-on limits.

Or I can just not pay for that unit in the list. Also Spawn will do adequately fine for whatever you wanted.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Also Spawn will do adequately fine for whatever you wanted.

They don't get Legion traits, they don't get ranged weapons, they don't hit at 3dmg, they don't benefit from Diabolical Strength to the same extent, they are 2" slower with Warptime, they can't trigger Crazed and have massive damage spikes, you get the idea.

Spawn make fantastic screens, but I don't think they're nearly as flexible.

Spawn are also really unreliable.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 p5freak wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
And honestly who's gonna waste Warptime on a Helbrute? I'm sorry but that's just bad 40k. There's TONS of better targets to use it on.
Outside pure shooting, they're just bad, period.

in a pinch when a frontline breaks and you aboslutely positively need to tie something down?

Also dual lasher hellbrutes are not too be underestimated.

Warptime on a helbrute with 12 melee attacks at WS3 S8 AP-2 D2 (dual power scourge) is not what i would call waste.

why warptime, Hellbrute actually profit from Traits. an RC hellbrute allready has an massive possible reach.

> Helbrutes benefiting from Legion traits

*cries in Colchisian*

Been looking at Nortilith crown. 80 points to give such a big expanding area a 5++ aura plus other psychic stuff is pretty good. The more units you park near the Crown, the bigger the multiplier effect.

Like Predator tanks and hellbrutes (which was discussed above). These are so-so but with the 5++ invul given by the Crown, they suddenly become a lot more interesting.

And while the Crown does take up a slot. You can somewhat make up for that slot by taking a brigade since you might be taking hellbrutes and heavy support anyway. (3 spawn is just 60 points).

Plus the Crown makes even cultists a lot harder to kill now. A black legion shooty list based on Abby and Nortilith crown might be interesting, now that you have points drops across the board. Maybe can even fit in a lord of skulls. So, when everything that threaten armor has been taken out, the Lord of skulls can then move up the board.

We were going to have two units of Havocs, two double-Lascannon CSM squads, a TL-Las/ML Helbrute bunched up around a Noctilith with a pair of Forgefiends + Warpsmith supporting them, and a psyker with Prescience nearby for the odd bonus.

Never got a chance to use the list, but it could'a been fun.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
We were going to have two units of Havocs, two double-Lascannon CSM squads, a TL-Las/ML Helbrute bunched up around a Noctilith with a pair of Forgefiends + Warpsmith supporting them, and a psyker with Prescience nearby for the odd bonus.

Never got a chance to use the list, but it could'a been fun.

I've got the models except for the Noctilith to make this sort of list - very tempted to give it a go!

Looks like I know what my next purchase will be

The rest of the list were the "Rushing Forward" stuff, with a Disco Lord, Maulerfiend, Venomcrawler, 4 Reaper Havocs in a Rhino, two more Rhino Squads of CSMs (each with their own Exalted Champ), and then a couple of extra 5-man CSM squads to make up the numbers and get me 3 CSM squads in the Corsair detachment.

The shooty stuff was Alpha Legion.

Eldenfirefly wrote:
Been looking at Nortilith crown. 80 points to give such a big expanding area a 5++ aura plus other psychic stuff is pretty good. The more units you park near the Crown, the bigger the multiplier effect.

Like Predator tanks and hellbrutes (which was discussed above). These are so-so but with the 5++ invul given by the Crown, they suddenly become a lot more interesting.

And while the Crown does take up a slot. You can somewhat make up for that slot by taking a brigade since you might be taking hellbrutes and heavy support anyway. (3 spawn is just 60 points).

Plus the Crown makes even cultists a lot harder to kill now. A black legion shooty list based on Abby and Nortilith crown might be interesting, now that you have points drops across the board. Maybe can even fit in a lord of skulls. So, when everything that threaten armor has been taken out, the Lord of skulls can then move up the board.

Honest opinion, the Crown works a lot better for R&H then for csm.
Your Garden variety leman russ is a lot better then predator.

But what May be interesting to try would be a cultists army that way .
Considering, that with reroll on it for psy you could nigh guarantee a 5+++ or -1 to hit.