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Azuza001 wrote:
As alpha legion I give mine the blade of the hydra,...

Yeah, my Alpha Legion Relic is pretty much determined:

Sorcerer in Terminator Armour with a humble Combi-bolter, Death Hex, Infernal Gaze, Mark of Slaanesh, Stratagem: We are Alpharius for Warlord Trait: Headhunter. and Viper's Bite.
Buckload of CP reserved for Renascent Infiltration and Endless Cacaphony.
Turn 2: Deep Strike, 8 Sniper shots at S 5, AP-3, D2, "See, this is why you can't have nice characters!"
Turn 3: "You failed to kill me, you fools!", pops off into the warp again.
Turn 4: "And this one dies, too"

That's sleek, that's mean, that's Alpha Legion!
Yeah, she single-handedly eats up a Red Corsair's battalion's load of CP, but it's so worth it!

 AuntHerbert wrote:
Basically just as a cheap beatstick, to fill an HQ-Slot for the second battalion. 60 pts... I mean a Warpsmith for 35 pts would be even more on the nose, and might make even less sense, fluffwise... well, as mechanic for the Rhinos maybe.
Yeah standard Lord is probably better, but might get pricey, depending on his equipment.
.

What's the point of a cheap beat stick that can't beat anything up?

This is the problem with them.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 AuntHerbert wrote:
Basically just as a cheap beatstick, to fill an HQ-Slot for the second battalion. 60 pts... I mean a Warpsmith for 35 pts would be even more on the nose, and might make even less sense, fluffwise... well, as mechanic for the Rhinos maybe.
Yeah standard Lord is probably better, but might get pricey, depending on his equipment.
.

What's the point of a cheap beat stick that can't beat anything up?

This is the problem with them.

I've been having fun with 2x5 plague marines + lord + Master of executions popping out of a terrax drill with my night lords. Its for sure not competitive but for fun games it works.

MoE is great if you give him Faceless commander.
But the traits of AL are allready thin in availability so Make of that what you want.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 AuntHerbert wrote:
Basically just as a cheap beatstick, to fill an HQ-Slot for the second battalion. 60 pts... I mean a Warpsmith for 35 pts would be even more on the nose, and might make even less sense, fluffwise... well, as mechanic for the Rhinos maybe.
Yeah standard Lord is probably better, but might get pricey, depending on his equipment.
.

What's the point of a cheap beat stick that can't beat anything up?

This is the problem with them.

Sorry, but that's just stupid. 5 Attacks WS 2+ S8 AP-3 D d3, plus more often than not an extra mortal wound isn't nothing, and that 6" Heroic Intervention and free reroll against characters is a gimmick, that is occassionally useful as well. He hangs around with an Exalted, a Lord and a Priest, so he benefits from a number of buffs.
Name me 3 characters under 120 pts, in 40k that really don't care about recieving him to the face. Will he singlehandedly win the game? Probably not. Can your opponent just ignore him? Definitely not!

 AuntHerbert wrote:


Sorry, but that's just stupid. 5 Attacks WS 2+ S8 AP-3 D d3, plus more often than not an extra mortal wound isn't nothing, and that 6" Heroic Intervention and free reroll against characters is a gimmick, that is occassionally useful as well. He hangs around with an Exalted, a Lord and a Priest, so he benefits from a number of buffs.
Name me 3 characters under 120 pts, in 40k that really don't care about recieving him to the face. Will he singlehandedly win the game? Probably not. Can your opponent just ignore him? Definitely not!

Here are two, cant think of a third one right now, but im pretty sure there is one more.

Makari, 2+ inv. 65 pts.
Archon, 2+ inv. 61 pts.

Yeah, sure that Archon is looking forward for 5 extra attempts to pop her Shadow field.
And Makari can be pretty much ignored himself.

So, your logic: Cheap characters with invuln saves exist, so melee damage is worthless? Sorry, I don't share that premise.

 AuntHerbert wrote:
Yeah, sure that Archon is looking forward for 5 extra attempts to pop her Shadow field.
And Makari can be pretty much ignored himself.

So, your logic: Cheap characters with invuln saves exist, so melee damage is worthless? Sorry, I don't share that premise.

TBF a common 4++ is allready quite a nuisance to deal with.

Yeah, sure, that must be the reason, why powerfists are no longer used in compettive lists. except... wait... I believe they still are!
Only that this guy, instead of getting a -1 to hit gets an extra attack and a free re-roll. "Can't beat up anything" "not competitive",,, you gotta be kidding me!

What are the other suggestions for replacing the MoE? Take a second Exalted - for redundancy!? Thing is, Exalted has no inv. save either, is 19 pts more expensive with a Powerfist, and if the opponent has to kill this guy first, because he is more of a threat to his characters, and is simply good at getting in the way, that IS redundancy.
Second Dark Apostle or second Lord, I can understand that. They can basically take twice the damage because of their inv, but the 25+ points difference also has to be cut from somewhere in the army.

 AuntHerbert wrote:
Yeah, sure that Archon is looking forward for 5 extra attempts to pop her Shadow field.
And Makari can be pretty much ignored himself.

So, your logic: Cheap characters with invuln saves exist, so melee damage is worthless? Sorry, I don't share that premise.

That is not what you asked for. You wanted characters that "really don't care about recieving him to the face".

The Archon DOES care. You got me with Makari, but he is really pure Gretchin gimmikry. And you still didn't show up a 3rd model.

 AuntHerbert wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 AuntHerbert wrote:
Basically just as a cheap beatstick, to fill an HQ-Slot for the second battalion. 60 pts... I mean a Warpsmith for 35 pts would be even more on the nose, and might make even less sense, fluffwise... well, as mechanic for the Rhinos maybe.
Yeah standard Lord is probably better, but might get pricey, depending on his equipment.
.

What's the point of a cheap beat stick that can't beat anything up?

This is the problem with them.

Sorry, but that's just stupid. 5 Attacks WS 2+ S8 AP-3 D d3, plus more often than not an extra mortal wound isn't nothing, and that 6" Heroic Intervention and free reroll against characters is a gimmick, that is occassionally useful as well. He hangs around with an Exalted, a Lord and a Priest, so he benefits from a number of buffs.
Name me 3 characters under 120 pts, in 40k that really don't care about recieving him to the face. Will he singlehandedly win the game? Probably not. Can your opponent just ignore him? Definitely not!

It's really not because he has no movement. I would ignore him 99% of the time.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also any character with a 4++ can pretty safely not care about him.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 AuntHerbert wrote:
Basically just as a cheap beatstick, to fill an HQ-Slot for the second battalion. 60 pts... I mean a Warpsmith for 35 pts would be even more on the nose, and might make even less sense, fluffwise... well, as mechanic for the Rhinos maybe.
Yeah standard Lord is probably better, but might get pricey, depending on his equipment.
.

What's the point of a cheap beat stick that can't beat anything up?

This is the problem with them.

I've been having fun with 2x5 plague marines + lord + Master of executions popping out of a terrax drill with my night lords. Its for sure not competitive but for fun games it works.

Or you could just use the Exalted Champ which has around the same benefits in melee and helps your dudes. The Master of Executions is one of those pointless foot characters that needs more effort than he's worth.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Or you could just use the Exalted Champ which has around the same benefits in melee and helps your dudes. The Master of Executions is one of those pointless foot characters that needs more effort than he's worth.

plague marines already reroll wounds of 1, it would only benefit the lord and himself. Hes also 10pts more expensive than the master and doesnt come with an actual weapon by default.

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Or you could just use the Exalted Champ which has around the same benefits in melee and helps your dudes. The Master of Executions is one of those pointless foot characters that needs more effort than he's worth.

plague marines already reroll wounds of 1, it would only benefit the lord and himself. Hes also 10pts more expensive than the master and doesnt come with an actual weapon by default.

Plague Marines have so few attacks that rerolling just 1s is super pathetic.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Or you could just use the Exalted Champ which has around the same benefits in melee and helps your dudes. The Master of Executions is one of those pointless foot characters that needs more effort than he's worth.

plague marines already reroll wounds of 1, it would only benefit the lord and himself. Hes also 10pts more expensive than the master and doesnt come with an actual weapon by default.

Plague Marines have so few attacks that rerolling just 1s is super pathetic.

Oh wait, i've always assumed that the Champion rerolled only 1's, yeah, then the champion is better for sure a support element.

Plague marines with flails dish out a bunch of attacks tho, thats 4d3 attacks at 6 -2 2 with semi mortal wounds. And the 3 powerfist attacks of the squad leader

 AuntHerbert wrote:
The Archon DOES care. You got me with Makari, but he is really pure Gretchin gimmikry. And you still didn't show up a 3rd model.

Pick any character with 3+ inv.

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Or you could just use the Exalted Champ which has around the same benefits in melee and helps your dudes. The Master of Executions is one of those pointless foot characters that needs more effort than he's worth.

plague marines already reroll wounds of 1, it would only benefit the lord and himself. Hes also 10pts more expensive than the master and doesnt come with an actual weapon by default.

Plague Marines have so few attacks that rerolling just 1s is super pathetic.

Oh wait, i've always assumed that the Champion rerolled only 1's, yeah, then the champion is better for sure a support element.

Plague marines with flails dish out a bunch of attacks tho, thats 4d3 attacks at 6 -2 2 with semi mortal wounds. And the 3 powerfist attacks of the squad leader

That Power Fist isn't considered a Plague Weapon I don't think. So basically all those attacks need that Shred element. Just spend the extra points to give the Exalted a weapon and you'll end up with more danger as a whole.

Is it true that the characters from the re-released Dark Vengeance boxset got new rules? If so, this creates a strange situation as Kranon the Relentless, being a named character, cannon actually use the Sword of the Relentless relic.

I hadn't heard anything like that. Crimson Slaughter aren't really worth using anyway, so some crummy Footlord with a special Sword isn't going to change anything.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I hadn't heard anything like that. Crimson Slaughter aren't really worth using anyway, so some crummy Footlord with a special Sword isn't going to change anything.

Yeah, their rules aren't that good, I was just curious.

On another note, is AoS' Gothizzar Harvester about the same size as a Maulerfiend? I was thinking of converting one.

 ArcaneHorror wrote:

On another note, is AoS' Gothizzar Harvester about the same size as a Maulerfiend? I was thinking of converting one.

theyre on the same base and the size seems similar enough (maybe the harvester is a bit bigger), i've seen many people put the fiends climbing on a vehicle with no one batting an eye, i dont think people would complain about such a conversion. And since the maulerfiend doesnt have guns anyway, giving him a larger silhouette would only advantage your opponent.

Technically the Maulerfiend has a shooting weapon but nobody buys it LOL

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Technically the Maulerfiend has a shooting weapon but nobody buys it LOL

I mean it isn't a bad weapon, just on a bad plattform really.

Also the initial price of the thing was nuts.
Like ' it's a melta why should i pay the arm and the leg and the liver of points available in my list for it.


At 6 pts it's quite okay tho.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
in another note, have started toying around with my cultist theme a bit and wanted to build fnally that "durable" list idea i had kicking about.

It's 1000 pts sofar allbeit i still have 51 points left



I guess i could curb the Plague marines and gain 222 pts for obliterators, alternatively i could run 2 Vindicators instead, profiting from -1 to hit or 5++ Or use havocs , conceal makes them stick around longer and a squad with lascannons might solve some AT issues off the list.


On another note, why'd someone ever want to run a predator still, even barebones a vindicator does everything better even a forgefiend is more reliable with it's Hades AC.s

Yeah the Plague Marines honestly offer you nothing in that list. Even curbing them for Berserker Marines for threat saturation to help out the Prince.

Regarding Axe vs Sword, it really only depends if you plan to go for a particular Daemon Weapon relic and his Mark. Otherwise in a smaller game you'll probably want the Sword more compared to killing things deader with the Axe.

In your opinion, do you guys have a fun time just putting what you want on the board? I mean running hybrid helbrutes because you like a sub optimized walker with a fist and a heavy weapon more than a face punching fist and flail brute, or a pure Dakka brute. Or running csm squads because you simply want the troops to be such rather than meat shield cultists. Or putting possessed on the board because Daemonic ally possessed chaos space marines just sounds brutal and awesome, despite the contrary on the tabletop. Maybe you put Dino its in your list because a dark mechanum just sounds cool. Maybe there’s a land raider in your list because it is iconic and it looks awesome. Do any of you put things that gimp your list for the rule of cool and enjoy the games, or do you hate finding yourself either being crushed by a net list or some partially optimized list? Or even factions that don’t even have to try to be competitive?

No. It's all hyper efficient marine nonsense here. It's exploit silly card game combos (massive - to hit stacking, Alpha Legion targeting strats, Night Lords Raptorial tricks) or get blasted off the table.

Pretty much just a hobbyist now. I wonder if this is the long term fate of those who stay in the GW ecosystem too long? Perhaps those I discounted in previous years were just burnt out players.

Yes. But fortunately most of the units I like are at least "ok". I don't run cultists because I want to play Chaos Space Marines not cultists. And I'm even crazy enough to play my hellforged fellblade from time to time, though I have started marking it Nurgle when playing loyalist marines and tau so I can give it -2 against their shooting. Started marking my shooting units Slaanesh against loyalists as well. Doing that really bugs me. Night Lords shouldn't have marks except undivided. But against loyalists you need to use all the tricks.

Don't like doing the mtg combo stuff either.

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Yes. But fortunately most of the units I like are at least "ok". I don't run cultists because I want to play Chaos Space Marines not cultists. And I'm even crazy enough to play my hellforged fellblade from time to time, though I have started marking it Nurgle when playing loyalist marines and tau so I can give it -2 against their shooting. Started marking my shooting units Slaanesh against loyalists as well. Doing that really bugs me. Night Lords shouldn't have marks except undivided. But against loyalists you need to use all the tricks.

Don't like doing the mtg combo stuff either.

That’s how I feel too. I am going put my war band on the table and I suppose if I lose to a net list or overwhelmingly to a faction that simply has better toys than me I’ll chock it up to my dudes picking the wrong fight or underestimating their foe... they’ll lick their wounds and hopefully do better next time. Guess we are heretics amongst heretics

macluvin wrote:
In your opinion, do you guys have a fun time just putting what you want on the board? I mean running hybrid helbrutes because you like a sub optimized walker with a fist and a heavy weapon more than a face punching fist and flail brute, or a pure Dakka brute. Or running csm squads because you simply want the troops to be such rather than meat shield cultists. Or putting possessed on the board because Daemonic ally possessed chaos space marines just sounds brutal and awesome, despite the contrary on the tabletop. Maybe you put Dino its in your list because a dark mechanum just sounds cool. Maybe there’s a land raider in your list because it is iconic and it looks awesome. Do any of you put things that gimp your list for the rule of cool and enjoy the games, or do you hate finding yourself either being crushed by a net list or some partially optimized list? Or even factions that don’t even have to try to be competitive?

Regarding Hybrid Dreads/Brutes:
The issue with trying to make a unit do several things is that, for the most part, something won't be able to do anything. For example, let's take the regular Dread vs the Ven Dread and wanting it to be multitasking. Anytime a Vendread moves, it suffers much less when firing a weapon, as every option they both get is a Heavy Weapon. However, with that natural BS2+, doesn't it make sense to take advantage of those heavy weapons in general instead of running at the enemy 8" at a time? Meanwhile, an Ironclad doesn't gain much carrying the regular Dread Fist with Hammer/Chainfist, BUT you can take a Hurricane Bolter and not lose accuracy running at the enemy. Meanwhile meanwhile, the regular Dread has nothing going for it being multitasking, but since you aren't using the BS2+, just run it at the enemy with two fists and Storm Bolters.
In the case of the Helbrute then, you at least have a couple more melee options, and its shooting output is pretty low even if it is cheap. So if you're gonna bother with them, might as well go fully melee and just run it mindlessly at the opponent. THAT SAID, you're more likely to have it live and get points back just sitting and shooting compared to it running and dying. Even when cheap, there's just no amount of threat saturation you can do that the opponent can't quickly kill them.

I was talking about just putting stuff in the list because you like it that way over the rules favoring it with advantages. Or because it fits your vision of your army better than a more capable or efficient unit. The only unit that is so crappy I wouldn’t is possessed but if the models were Cooler like the greater possessed... Or maybe if I just looked at someone’s spare spawn bits..