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Not Online!!! wrote:
Honest opinion, the Crown works a lot better for R&H then for csm.
Your Garden variety leman russ is a lot better then predator.

But what May be interesting to try would be a cultists army that way .
Considering, that with reroll on it for psy you could nigh guarantee a 5+++ or -1 to hit.

You could theoretically bring three of them in a single detachment, by T3 the aura would cover literally half the board.

Yoyoyo wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
Honest opinion, the Crown works a lot better for R&H then for csm.
Your Garden variety leman russ is a lot better then predator.

But what May be interesting to try would be a cultists army that way .
Considering, that with reroll on it for psy you could nigh guarantee a 5+++ or -1 to hit.

You could theoretically bring three of them in a single detachment, by T3 the aura would cover literally half the board.

why do you think i suggested that be done with R&H instead, having your own zone full of bodies is your average army. Also by turn 2 with only two you allready have a voerage of in esssence half our board.

alternatively a cultist AL army with a double or tripple setup with some sorcerers and DA with cultleader trait, might actually be something so stupid it just might work.

Just out of curiousity, what would a Leman Russ spearhead do tactically for CSM?

Yoyoyo wrote:
Just out of curiousity, what would a Leman Russ spearhead do tactically for CSM?

Honestly i'd go directly for a battalion instead, remember, you allready would need a detachment slot for 2-3 Noctilith.

for 137 pts you'd get a T8 double dakka BC, with a heavy bolter. ( basically a slightly cheaper more sturdier no melee defiler) That can operate independantly.

In Havoc centric list it might give some diversionary targets, maybee even decent if you want to go MSU marine spam, considering you get a lascannon with 4 ablative wounds nowadays for 70 pts.

I would rather do 3 defilers and kharn the betrayer than the crown and some russes. Keep all 3 defilers within 1" of kharn (or 2 and 1 uses deamonforged) for rerolling all hits and being a semi mobile incredibly nasty cc force with anti tank equipment. Give all 3 defilers scourges and twin las and call it a day.

Battlescribe is screaming at me over roster validation issues and and I want to make sure I'm not doing something wrong.

Battalion (Red Corsairs) and Spearhead (Alpha Legion) Detachment.

Corsair Detachment has Exalted Champ Warlord, and has taken Reaver Lord as the Warlord Trait, which lets me take a second Relic. The other two Exalted Champs in that list have the relics (Black Mace and Axe of Blind Fury).

Alpha Legion Detachment has a Sorcerer and I've paid 1 CP for 'We Are Alpharius'. That means he can take a Warlord trait without being a Warlord. I took Master of Diversion.

Battlescribe says I have too many relics, too many Warlords, and that the Sorcerer cannot have 'We Are Alpharius'.

What am I doing wrong?

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Battlescribe is screaming at me over roster validation issues and and I want to make sure I'm not doing something wrong.

Battalion (Red Corsairs) and Spearhead (Alpha Legion) Detachment.

Corsair Detachment has Exalted Champ Warlord, and has taken Reaver Lord as the Warlord Trait, which lets me take a second Relic. The other two Exalted Champs in that list have the relics (Black Mace and Axe of Blind Fury).

Alpha Legion Detachment has a Sorcerer and I've paid 1 CP for 'We Are Alpharius'. That means he can take a Warlord trait without being a Warlord. I took Master of Diversion.

Battlescribe says I have too many relics, too many Warlords, and that the Sorcerer cannot have 'We Are Alpharius'.

What am I doing wrong?

For the first part, there should be an option towards the top of the subselection to indicate 'Reaver Lord Artefact'. This will get rid of the "too many relics" concern. If you do have this option selected, then remove the relic and add it again. Note that the "Artefacts of Chaos" box will change to read "Artefacts of Chaos (Reaver Lord)" after this selection has been made.

I don't have your problem with the Sorcerer. When I select "We Are Alpharius" for him, it allows me to select a Warlord Trait for him - in spite of the fact that I already have an Exalted Champion with Reaver Lord.

Thanks. I'm not seeing the Reaver Artefact thing. Maybe I need to update.

[EDIT]: Yup, just needed to update the files. Now everything is there. Thanks!

I made two separate army lists that are based off of the concept of the chaos possessed ball. I currently do not own any possessed, but having a tough to hit unit (Plaguebearers) in the middle of the field to keep all my characters safe and deny enemy movement seems fine. Obviously it's not as good, but I'm trying to make due with what I have.

I use Oblits/PBC's/Psychic Phase to be the teeth of my list. I buff the hell out of obliterators.

Obliterator Buffs:

Prescience: +1 to hit
Delightful Agonies: 5+ FNP
Alpha Legion: -1 to hit over 12"
Benediction of Darkness: -1 to hit
Warpsight Plea: +1 to hit
Cursed Earth: +1 invuln save
Infernal Power: Re-roll Hit & Wound rolls of 1
Veterans of the long war: +1 to wound
Endless Cacophany: Shoot twice

Is this worth having so much dedication to them? I feel like they should be able to delete things and be relatively durable. I also have a good amount of threat saturation.

The TSons cult of Magic giving a better chance to be dealing more damage (as well as the new cult of magic AOE MW spell) the psykers should deal a ton of damage as well.

Any thoughts would be appreciated. Like I said this isn't better than the possessed strategy, but it's a similar concept with the models that I have.

Azuza001 wrote:
I would rather do 3 defilers and kharn the betrayer than the crown and some russes. Keep all 3 defilers within 1" of kharn (or 2 and 1 uses deamonforged) for rerolling all hits and being a semi mobile incredibly nasty cc force with anti tank equipment. Give all 3 defilers scourges and twin las and call it a day.

Depends on how the terrain is like in the area where you play. For me, I have had a lot of problems trying to move a castle made up of even two defilers across the board that has a decent amount of terrain. The foot print of one defiler is similar to a knight. So trying to move a castle that has 3 defilers and trying to keep them within 1 inch of Kharn is like trying to move 3 knights stuck together across the board. In order words... extremely challenging...

Now, if you are going to leave them stationary as a firing platform, its probably ok. But if you plan to move them ... Practically, I would say there would be huge issues.

My castle was 2 defilers, 1 forgefiend and 1 Disco Lord. I already had a LOS which independently went off to do its own thing. LOS don't need to be babysat. Suffice to say, the castle couldnt even make it to mid board because of terrain issues.

Biskits wrote:
I made two separate army lists that are based off of the concept of the chaos possessed ball. I currently do not own any possessed, but having a tough to hit unit (Plaguebearers) in the middle of the field to keep all my characters safe and deny enemy movement seems fine. Obviously it's not as good, but I'm trying to make due with what I have.

I use Oblits/PBC's/Psychic Phase to be the teeth of my list. I buff the hell out of obliterators.

Obliterator Buffs:

Prescience: +1 to hit
Delightful Agonies: 5+ FNP
Alpha Legion: -1 to hit over 12"
Benediction of Darkness: -1 to hit
Warpsight Plea: +1 to hit
Cursed Earth: +1 invuln save
Infernal Power: Re-roll Hit & Wound rolls of 1
Veterans of the long war: +1 to wound
Endless Cacophany: Shoot twice

Is this worth having so much dedication to them? I feel like they should be able to delete things and be relatively durable. I also have a good amount of threat saturation.

The TSons cult of Magic giving a better chance to be dealing more damage (as well as the new cult of magic AOE MW spell) the psykers should deal a ton of damage as well.

Any thoughts would be appreciated. Like I said this isn't better than the possessed strategy, but it's a similar concept with the models that I have.

Piling buffs on AL oblits works really well for lots of reasons, I think though you'd be better using conceal and taking more troops to screen them. You could take rubrics as a tough troop to make a t son battalion or more cultists/plaguebearers.

I'm using a list at the moment with possessed and oblits and it works well. T1 conceal the possessed, t2 conceal oblits behind buffed up possessed who I've hopefully wartimes into combat.

I take the master of possession with the warp lord extra warlord trait and give him the drakescale plate. If he gets sniped the whole list gets worse!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh also nurglings arre gret for conceal , stick them behind a wall near enemy, put character in front of concealed unit. Character is untargetable until they kill nurglings they can't see!

^ point of order - characters are only hidden by units that can be seen. If you’re the closest visible target, you’re toast.

 lindsay40k wrote:
^ point of order - characters are only hidden by units that can be seen. If you’re the closest visible target, you’re toast.

Nope, big faq 1. Nearest regardless of being visible or not:

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2018/04/16/warhammer-40000-big-faq-1-the-low-downgw-homepage-post-1fw-homepage-post-2/

Think it was to stop 'rhino scoping'.

Eldenfirefly wrote:

Azuza001 wrote:
I would rather do 3 defilers and kharn the betrayer than the crown and some russes. Keep all 3 defilers within 1" of kharn (or 2 and 1 uses deamonforged) for rerolling all hits and being a semi mobile incredibly nasty cc force with anti tank equipment. Give all 3 defilers scourges and twin las and call it a day.

Depends on how the terrain is like in the area where you play. For me, I have had a lot of problems trying to move a castle made up of even two defilers across the board that has a decent amount of terrain. The foot print of one defiler is similar to a knight. So trying to move a castle that has 3 defilers and trying to keep them within 1 inch of Kharn is like trying to move 3 knights stuck together across the board. In order words... extremely challenging...

Now, if you are going to leave them stationary as a firing platform, its probably ok. But if you plan to move them ... Practically, I would say there would be huge issues.

My castle was 2 defilers, 1 forgefiend and 1 Disco Lord. I already had a LOS which independently went off to do its own thing. LOS don't need to be babysat. Suffice to say, the castle couldnt even make it to mid board because of terrain issues.

Oh I agree. That's why I put the "or 2 and 1 uses deamonforged" part in. It's not hard to keep 2 near kharn, you just train them with kharn in the middle, if 1 defiler fits then the next one will in the next movement phase as well. Then the 3rd can go off and crab battle on his own as long as you have the cp to burn.

Typically I use mine as backfield objective holders and counter charge units though.

Not Online!!! wrote:

Yoyoyo wrote:
Just out of curiousity, what would a Leman Russ spearhead do tactically for CSM?

Honestly i'd go directly for a battalion instead, remember, you allready would need a detachment slot for 2-3 Noctilith.

for 137 pts you'd get a T8 double dakka BC, with a heavy bolter. ( basically a slightly cheaper more sturdier no melee defiler) That can operate independantly.

In Havoc centric list it might give some diversionary targets, maybee even decent if you want to go MSU marine spam, considering you get a lascannon with 4 ablative wounds nowadays for 70 pts.

Do you think R&H are sustainable? I mean, aren't they going to be vacuumed in the next CA or move to legend sooner or later?
I loved corrupted IG, chaos soldiers, and previous incarnations of R&H, and have a bataillon of models converted as cultists. However, the fear of GW's annihilating the army prevent me from buying more models (Leman Russ & cie).

nokranok wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

Yoyoyo wrote:
Just out of curiousity, what would a Leman Russ spearhead do tactically for CSM?

Honestly i'd go directly for a battalion instead, remember, you allready would need a detachment slot for 2-3 Noctilith.

for 137 pts you'd get a T8 double dakka BC, with a heavy bolter. ( basically a slightly cheaper more sturdier no melee defiler) That can operate independantly.

In Havoc centric list it might give some diversionary targets, maybee even decent if you want to go MSU marine spam, considering you get a lascannon with 4 ablative wounds nowadays for 70 pts.

Do you think R&H are sustainable? I mean, aren't they going to be vacuumed in the next CA or move to legend sooner or later?
I loved corrupted IG, chaos soldiers, and previous incarnations of R&H, and have a bataillon of models converted as cultists. However, the fear of GW's annihilating the army prevent me from buying more models (Leman Russ & cie).

Nope, not at all afraid about sustainability: before R&H there was the Lost and the damned. And frankly, the infantry for R&H 2.0 is allready out in the form of BSF, the only thing missing there is a HQ that is not a marine bully or a traitor commisar (which really should've been an enforcer.)

Not Online!!! wrote:

nokranok wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

Yoyoyo wrote:
Just out of curiousity, what would a Leman Russ spearhead do tactically for CSM?

Honestly i'd go directly for a battalion instead, remember, you allready would need a detachment slot for 2-3 Noctilith.

for 137 pts you'd get a T8 double dakka BC, with a heavy bolter. ( basically a slightly cheaper more sturdier no melee defiler) That can operate independantly.

In Havoc centric list it might give some diversionary targets, maybee even decent if you want to go MSU marine spam, considering you get a lascannon with 4 ablative wounds nowadays for 70 pts.

Do you think R&H are sustainable? I mean, aren't they going to be vacuumed in the next CA or move to legend sooner or later?
I loved corrupted IG, chaos soldiers, and previous incarnations of R&H, and have a bataillon of models converted as cultists. However, the fear of GW's annihilating the army prevent me from buying more models (Leman Russ & cie).

Nope, not at all afraid about sustainability: before R&H there was the Lost and the damned. And frankly, the infantry for R&H 2.0 is allready out in the form of BSF, the only thing missing there is a HQ that is not a marine bully or a traitor commisar (which really should've been an enforcer.)

The question is whether they'll fix r&h in the new fw books or release a new traitor guard codex. But they'll continue in some form.

Yeah if they kill off R&H worst case scenario you can just run them as cultists. There has to be some sort of traitor IG army in the works if they take down R&H, that is way too iconic of a force in the lore to not have an army in some capacity. And given how Blackstone Fortress keeps releasing traitor guard stuff in plastic, my hopes is that this is the buildup to a proper chaos guard codex, or at least a proper reboot in the new FW rules the GW team is working on.

It's a natural choice, half it's range is already good to go (IG vehicles, not to mention BF stuff) and you can tack on Daemon Engines, CSM like Dark Apostles or Warpsmiths, and some low level daemons for good measure. All you need to do to make them a legitimate army is a chaos guardsmen kit, a heavy weapons kit, a command squad box, and a vehicle upgrade sprue. Bam, brand new army, and helps buff the rest of the chaos codexes a bit by providing various things they need, aka long range firepower and cheap bodies for screens/cp. It would be a much cheaper proper army than most of the alternatives, and that's part of why GSC exist. Half the range was already done, pull a few choice units from the IG and Nids codexes, fill the gaps with unique hybrid and characters, and you're done. If interest keeps up, release more kits, just like GSC.

As for what it adds to chaos, if you're going to add anything I'd think it would be basilisks or tank commanders. Remember, you can run tank commanders for BS3 and orders, which even at about a 40pt markup over a regular tank is worth it. Anything else is kind of trash sadly, most of the units are very overcosted or just plain worse than something Chaos already has.

To Squat R&H, they”d have to discontinue a lot of FW, and they recently announced that FW rules are going to be rewritten by the GW studio. I think traitor guard collectors are safe per se, the only question is when and in what form do they get continuity

I have this list, I'm debating on swapping the dark apostle for the cheapest chaos Lord for redundant rerolls of one, if internal power fails for some reason. Opinions?

You're going to want t the rerolling to hit on those Obliterators.

Rerolls yes, but you'd need probably a jumppack or termite lord to get them where they are needed.

Not Online!!! wrote:
Rerolls yes, but you'd need probably a jumppack or termite lord to get them where they are needed.

Jump Packs aren't expensive. I think you'll be okay.

no room for jump packs, or term lord (with a lord I'm at 2k of 2k), plus the oblits (generally) need to roll with the MoP (otherwise this list is rather pointless), which has access to neither.

Because I didn't say the MoP has infernal power (giving rerolls of 1s to hit/wound); cursed earth, to give the oblits a 4++; daemonsmith (exploding 6s), and insidium (to buff himself).

Dark Apostle has Benediction of Darkenss (to help protect oblits) and when they're dead/out of range for some reason, Omen of Potency to make him a beatstick

Chaos Lord would switch with the Dark Apostle to be a redundant source of reroll 1s to hit, in case the MoP fails for some reason.

xenoterracide wrote:
no room for jump packs, or term lord (with a lord I'm at 2k of 2k), plus the oblits (generally) need to roll with the MoP (otherwise this list is rather pointless), which has access to neither.

Because I didn't say the MoP has infernal power (giving rerolls of 1s to hit/wound); cursed earth, to give the oblits a 4++; daemonsmith (exploding 6s), and insidium (to buff himself).

Dark Apostle has Benediction of Darkenss (to help protect oblits) and when they're dead/out of range for some reason, Omen of Potency to make him a beatstick

Chaos Lord would switch with the Dark Apostle to be a redundant source of reroll 1s to hit, in case the MoP fails for some reason.

Then excuse me, but that is a rather Bad gameplan, obliterators should never footslog, and the mop does not work in non castle versions of daemonikn Style lists die to the lack of Mobility.

xenoterracide wrote:
I have this list, I'm debating on swapping the dark apostle for the cheapest chaos Lord for redundant rerolls of one, if internal power fails for some reason. Opinions?

Spoiler:

++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Chaos - Chaos Space Marines) [46 PL, 10CP, 863pts] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

Battle-forged CP [3CP]

Detachment CP [5CP]

Gametype: Matched

Legion [3CP]: Red Corsairs

Specialist Detachment [-1CP]: Soulforged Pack

+ HQ +

Lord Discordant on Helstalker [9 PL, 170pts]: Baleflamer, Mark of Khorne
. Helstalker: Techno-virus injector

Lord Discordant on Helstalker [9 PL, 170pts]: Baleflamer, Mark of Khorne
. Helstalker: Techno-virus injector

Lord Discordant on Helstalker [9 PL, 170pts]: Baleflamer, Mark of Khorne
. Helstalker: Techno-virus injector

+ Troops +

Chaos Space Marines [4 PL, 77pts]: No Chaos Mark
. Aspiring Champion: Chainsword, Combi-bolter
. 3x Marine w/ Boltgun
. Marine w/ Heavy or Special Weapon: Reaper chaincannon

Chaos Space Marines [4 PL, 77pts]: No Chaos Mark
. Aspiring Champion: Chainsword, Combi-bolter
. 3x Marine w/ Boltgun
. Marine w/ Heavy or Special Weapon: Reaper chaincannon

Chaos Space Marines [4 PL, 77pts]: No Chaos Mark
. Aspiring Champion: Chainsword, Combi-bolter
. 3x Marine w/ Boltgun
. Marine w/ Heavy or Special Weapon: Reaper chaincannon

+ Heavy Support +

Maulerfiend [7 PL, 122pts]: Lasher tendrils, Mark of Khorne

++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Chaos - Chaos Space Marines) [73 PL, 5CP, 1,135pts] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

Detachment CP [5CP]

Legion: Iron Warriors

+ HQ +

Dark Apostle [5 PL, 72pts]: Benediction of Darkness, Mark of Nurgle, Omen of Potency

Master of Possession [5 PL, 88pts]: Cursed Earth, Force stave, Infernal Power, Insidium, Mark of Nurgle, Warlord

+ Troops +

Chaos Cultists [3 PL, 40pts]: No Chaos Mark
. 9x Chaos Cultist w/ Autogun
. Cultist Champion: Autogun

Chaos Cultists [3 PL, 40pts]: No Chaos Mark
. 9x Chaos Cultist w/ Autogun
. Cultist Champion: Autogun

Chaos Cultists [3 PL, 40pts]: No Chaos Mark
. 9x Chaos Cultist w/ Autogun
. Cultist Champion: Autogun

+ Heavy Support +

Obliterators [18 PL, 285pts]: Mark of Slaanesh, 3x Obliterator

Obliterators [18 PL, 285pts]: No Chaos Mark, 3x Obliterator

Obliterators [18 PL, 285pts]: Mark of Slaanesh, 3x Obliterator

++ Total: [119 PL, 15CP, 1,998pts] ++

Created with BattleScribe

Why is the RC detachment a soulforged pack ? You dont use master of the soulforges. The disco lords can already charge after advancing, no need for infernal engines. Or is it just for the maulerfiend ?? Why the maulerfiend anyway ? You already have three melee daemon engines.

The IW dark apostle cannot have two prayers of the dark gods.

Not Online!!! wrote:

Then excuse me, but that is a rather Bad gameplan, obliterators should never footslog, and the mop does not work in non castle versions of daemonikn Style lists die to the lack of Mobility.

not going to LVO or any of the big tourney's this did me fairly well in our local ITC tourney (4th out of 13 and I should have been 3rd (I think) as 2 of my games didn't actually finish at no fault of my own). The only place this fell apart was against a vehicle heavy eldar, and deep striking them wouldn't have helped at all, as the problem was 1 a big line of sight blocking in the middle of the board, and then the ability to kite me around. TBD I'm going to play the person that won's list next week.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 p5freak wrote:

Why is the RC detachment a soulforged pack ? You dont use master of the soulforges. The disco lords can already charge after advancing, no need for infernal engines. Or is it just for the maulerfiend ?? Why the maulerfiend anyway ? You already have three melee daemon engines.

The IW dark apostle cannot have two prayers of the dark gods.

it's for 2 things, allowing the maulerfiend to advance and charge, and the ability to double the wound profile for determining the number of attacks. I've not found master of soulforges particularly useful, most of the time I'm either in, or out, rarely have I found 2 inches making a huge difference. Also, my LD's die too fast for one to make a good choice as a warlord, which is also why I take the maulerfiend, additional melee.

The dark apostle can have 2 prayers selected, you just can't cast more than one at a time.

You are right about the dark apostle, he knows two prayers, but one is already set, its called dark zealotry. You can only choose one additional prayer.

That seems to be the correct interpretation ~ every other player and Battlescribe reads the rules that way. That said, from page 168 from Vigilus Ablaze:

"This model can chant prayers. It knows the Dark Zealotry prayer and one prayer from the Prayers to the Dark Gods."

So let's check the prayers to the dark gods:

"Before the battle, generate the prayers for Priests that can chant prayers from Prayers to the Dark Gods... a <Mark of Chaos> Priest that can chant prayers from the Prayers to the Dark Gods also knows the appropriate <Mark of Chaos> prayer on the right."

So when I first read that, I thought you got Dark Zealotry, one Prayer to the Dark God, and also the <Mark of Chaos> prayer. I suppose the difference is the use of the word "know" - here it is used to refer to the available options before getting to the battlefield.

How quickly does a Storm Eagle with 15 Possessed in it go pop? What about with 5++ and additional -1 to hit (-2 total with Hard To Hit) from WB DA double prayer? It's further possible to get -3 with Miasma if you get first turn but that's not to be relied upon.

The main benefits of this approach is that it's immune to TFC shenanigans and is extremely mobile. Additionally, you aren't locked to AL / EC for the survivability strats and can instead pick WB for +damage and +attacks.

The downside is that you can be shot at T1 and will definitely take fire T2 as you attempt to get into position. It's also an additional 274 points for the ride.

This isn't really a strategy worth pursuing with the new FW rules to be released but it's something I've been thinking about.