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mrtomski wrote: Hi all, what do you think of the forge world Hellwright on Dark Abeyant.
Why don’t you post an entire list? It’s easier to give advice in context.
Something along these lines.. I dont think this is a particularly competitive list but I happen to have almost all of the models needed so can definitely test it
Idea would be to warp time the LOS up the field and the rest moves up behind and takes the midfield.
Having extra hits on 6s and extra attacks on 6s to wound means getting a bit extra out of shooting and as good as a +1 to hit basically.
Defilers could be replaced by forgedfiends or decimators to free up points. Defilers are much more solid though and have scary melee. Defilers give 6 las cannon shots 3d6 s8 -2 d3d, 3d6 s5 ap 0 shots vs 24 s8 -1 2d for the other options. Not sure if the better ap on the deflier closes the gap on the shooting.
The deamon patrol was kind of tacked on.
Other variations of this list I'm working on are 1. Having oblits 2. Having a nightlords detachment with warptalons. Both of which I think gives loads more tactical flexibility.
xeen wrote: Take the shooting on the rest of your army.
That’s the crux. It’s not an afterthought either. How much will you lose in the process of protecting ~150pts of Havocs? And if you’re capable of tanking an entire army’s worth of firepower on T1, why do you need some form of alpha strike?
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mrtomski wrote: Which relic axe do you mean? The mortal wound one - didn't look that good to me...
It’s an IW specific relic, +3S, AP-3, flat 2D and hits for D3 MW against vehicles on unmodified 5’s
If you thought I meant the Daemon Weapon one? It’s only useful on an Exalted Champ hunting characters.
Well you are going to take it anyway. If you play with enough terrain on the table and play with the CA18 deployment you should be able to mitigate this down, and if you don't then you are probably SOL anyway if you don't go first. I like this plan if you play with the CA18 way of deployment and have enough terrain on the table to make deployment matter.......if you don't or if you use the old you deploy I deploy method, then no way, first turn always because there is no advantage you can get going second. That is why I hate that type of deployment.
Yoyoyo wrote: A PBC has 4 faction keywords: Chaos, Nurgle, Heretic Astartes, Death Guard.
The entire army must share Chaos. A detachment must share 1 keyword other than Chaos. So you can make it a generic NURGLE detachment, though you’ll lose codex advantages within pure DG detachments like Inexorable Advance and Stratagems. It’s exactly the same principle as SM doctrines.
So he loses both nurgle deamon abilities and death guard abilities doing that correct? Because like I pointed out it's not a deamon codex detachment. I am just trying to wrap my head around how this works exactly.
The detachment is legal, but mislabelled - it is a NURGLE detachment. The Death Guard do not benefit from Inexorable Advance. The Daemons of Nurgle do not gain Loci of Virulence. Also, neither Codex’s Stratagems are unlocked.
If the tourney allowed four detachments, I imagine there’d be a DGHQ making the PBC into a Spearhead, if only to enable the Daemons to bring their excellent Loci and Possession stratagem. As it is, I suppose the units in the Nurgle detachment are chosen as elements with few moving parts.
mrtomski wrote: Something along these lines.. I dont think this is a particularly competitive list but I happen to have almost all of the models needed so can definitely test it
How attached are you to the Cultists? You could do something like this.
mrtomski wrote: Something along these lines.. I dont think this is a particularly competitive list but I happen to have almost all of the models needed so can definitely test it
How attached are you to the Cultists? You could do something like this.
I really like your concept, honestly! But I think it might be stronger with less support, and more threat saturation.
Thanks for the suggestion. When I was originally thinking of deamon engines some time ago a basic concept was have the majority of the army t7+ with invuns to help mitigate a decent chunk of enemy shooting.
Sounds like a silly question but how good is a bloodthirster, I've never used one before..
Good if he get's into melee, just no one will let them there
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
I've tried using my 2 bloodthirsters a few times. He's great vs a list with not a lot of shooting and terrible vs a gunline.
The only list that had any use in was a mele rush list full of zerkers in rhinos, magnus, skarbrand and 2 bloodthirsters.
You can make him quite tough with armour of scorn and oblivious to pain wl trait. You spend warpsurge a couple of times and he's on 3++ and 6+ fnp. But it's a huge investment and will still get downed with a few bad rolls.
small_gods wrote: I've tried using my 2 bloodthirsters a few times. He's great vs a list with not a lot of shooting and terrible vs a gunline.
The only list that had any use in was a mele rush list full of zerkers in rhinos, magnus, skarbrand and 2 bloodthirsters.
You can make him quite tough with armour of scorn and oblivious to pain wl trait. You spend warpsurge a couple of times and he's on 3++ and 6+ fnp. But it's a huge investment and will still get downed with a few bad rolls.
I'm afraid that warp surge got FAQ'd to not allow any INV save higher than 4++. Tzeetch demons can kinda of get around because they add + 1 to the INV save roll, not change the stat itself. Any other demons can't go above a 4++, which is very stupid, but that's how they've made it.
mrtomski wrote: Thanks for the suggestion. When I was originally thinking of deamon engines some time ago a basic concept was have the majority of the army t7+ with invuns to help mitigate a decent chunk of enemy shooting.
It’s going to be a challenge in balancing resiliency and threat saturation. As well as dealing with roadblocks like screening units. I do think you should try and keep the Skullreaver Daemon Prince and Khorne synergies, they have a lot of utility in your list.
I think a 4++ Bloodthirster and -1 to hit, Warptimed LoS would probably take most of the heat away from the Discos/Defilers/Prince if everything is running up the board. The 4++ from the MoP is most applicable if you’re planning to castle around him. It’s a good idea but you don’t want to hang back. Trying to put the pieces together, your list can move 10” up the board without losing any shooting accuracy (Soulforged Pack + Stoic Advance), a 12” move BT or Prince keeps pace easily holding the CC, you have top-tier assault, you can charge and advance with Loci, your Khorne DP gives a re-roll aura... the 4++ from Cursed Earth is quite good, but your forces really want to advance.
Maybe think of casting Warptime on the MoP, so he can keep pace with the Daemon Engines? You could even swap out Smite for Warptime with a Chaos Familiar and triple-cast with Great Sorcerer, so you probably don’t need a Sorc at all. Or just drop the BT to free up points.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/12/18 16:18:40
mrtomski wrote: Thanks for the suggestion. When I was originally thinking of deamon engines some time ago a basic concept was have the majority of the army t7+ with invuns to help mitigate a decent chunk of enemy shooting.
It’s going to be a challenge in balancing resiliency and threat saturation. As well as dealing with roadblocks like screening units. I do think you should try and keep the Skullreaver Daemon Prince and Khorne synergies, they have a lot of utility in your list.
I think a 4++ Bloodthirster and -1 to hit, Warptimed LoS would probably take most of the heat away from the Discos/Defilers/Prince if everything is running up the board. The 4++ from the MoP is most applicable if you’re planning to castle around him. It’s a good idea but you don’t want to hang back. Trying to put the pieces together, your list can move 10” up the board without losing any shooting accuracy (Soulforged Pack + Stoic Advance), a 12” move BT or Prince keeps pace easily holding the CC, you have top-tier assault, you can charge and advance with Loci, your Khorne DP gives a re-roll aura... the 4++ from Cursed Earth is quite good, but your forces really want to advance.
Maybe think of casting Warptime on the MoP, so he can keep pace with the Daemon Engines? You could even swap out Smite for Warptime with a Chaos Familiar and triple-cast with Great Sorcerer, so you probably don’t need a Sorc at all. Or just drop the BT to free up points.
Interesting points thanks, I'll have a play around with the list and see what I can come up with. I like the idea of threat saturation.
When I've played a similar list before a lot of the "support" didn't end up doing much, as you say the MOP gets quickly left behind, same with warpsmiths. So although it may seem a little anti intuitive maybe something like the bloodthirster is the way to go.
Having played deamon engines at the london GT (and did horribly) I do feel a LOS with a -1 hit and 6+++ will survive 1st turn shooting in most cases.
The original reason I liked the hellwright was that with 8" move he could keep pace and also be untargetable, which I think will be key for whoever I give the deamonsmith WL trait to.
Tempting the opponent to get close to my forces to take out my warlord rather then sending him to them as I have before with LDs.
small_gods wrote: I've tried using my 2 bloodthirsters a few times. He's great vs a list with not a lot of shooting and terrible vs a gunline.
The only list that had any use in was a mele rush list full of zerkers in rhinos, magnus, skarbrand and 2 bloodthirsters.
You can make him quite tough with armour of scorn and oblivious to pain wl trait. You spend warpsurge a couple of times and he's on 3++ and 6+ fnp. But it's a huge investment and will still get downed with a few bad rolls.
I'm afraid that warp surge got FAQ'd to not allow any INV save higher than 4++. Tzeetch demons can kinda of get around because they add + 1 to the INV save roll, not change the stat itself. Any other demons can't go above a 4++, which is very stupid, but that's how they've made it.
Of course, brain in gear now!! Yeah only really impossible robe lord of change able to get the 3++ now! Not the 2++ that it once was.
When I've played a similar list before a lot of the "support" didn't end up doing much, as you say the MOP gets quickly left behind, same with warpsmiths.
Since you've got Khorne Daemons Loci, don't forget that any character who takes Insidium can benefit from it. So if you want to sling a Dark Apostle or MoP into combat on R2 to support the Daemon Engines, it will improve your chances to get in.
I really want a flyer in my BL army. I'm thinking of getting a nephilim jetfighter and doing some light conversion to proxy it as a xiphon interceptor.
Anybody had any joy with them?
I know predators aren't exactly a good marker but its 240pts compared to 175pts for a quadlas pred.
Offensively you get the same 4 lascannons, plus basically a pair of autocannons with the potential for mortal wounding, ignore moving with heavys and +1 to hit against fly.
Defensively you have 1 less wound but same toughness and save and -1 to hit for airbourne.
You think that's worth the extra 65pts? Or is it a waste and I'm never gonna run it?
Abaddon303 wrote: I really want a flyer in my BL army. I'm thinking of getting a nephilim jetfighter and doing some light conversion to proxy it as a xiphon interceptor.
Anybody had any joy with them?
I know predators aren't exactly a good marker but its 240pts compared to 175pts for a quadlas pred.
Offensively you get the same 4 lascannons, plus basically a pair of autocannons with the potential for mortal wounding, ignore moving with heavys and +1 to hit against fly.
Defensively you have 1 less wound but same toughness and save and -1 to hit for airbourne.
You think that's worth the extra 65pts? Or is it a waste and I'm never gonna run it?
I think the ability to potentially snipe characters alone is worth the extra 65. I guess the only downside is you know its like to get killed t2 as it will be a relatively high priority target.
Abaddon303 wrote: I really want a flyer in my BL army. I'm thinking of getting a nephilim jetfighter and doing some light conversion to proxy it as a xiphon interceptor.
Anybody had any joy with them?
I know predators aren't exactly a good marker but its 240pts compared to 175pts for a quadlas pred.
Offensively you get the same 4 lascannons, plus basically a pair of autocannons with the potential for mortal wounding, ignore moving with heavys and +1 to hit against fly.
Defensively you have 1 less wound but same toughness and save and -1 to hit for airbourne.
You think that's worth the extra 65pts? Or is it a waste and I'm never gonna run it?
I think the ability to potentially snipe characters alone is worth the extra 65. I guess the only downside is you know its like to get killed t2 as it will be a relatively high priority target.
Dont use it as a character sniper. Mark it nurgle, cast miasma of pestilence on it, and let it fly in your own deployment zone.
Nice I hadn't thought of the character sniping potential.
What I really wish chaos had is something like the loyalist stormhawk. I don't really want a flyer hanging around in my deployment zone pretending to be a tank. I want one that is carrying out anti infantry strafing runs with high volume short range weapons.
70" move seems a little unnecessary when you have >48" range weaponry
Does the raptor compare with the xiphon? In a good way, i mean
Abaddon303 asked for anti infantry strafing runs.
The xiphon is dedicated anti tank, the fireraptor can be loaded for either role.
That said you can almost get two interceptors for the price of one raptor and it's not that much tougher, only having 6 wounds more.
It has the option to stand still if it wants to or fly.
It's 36 shots though in the base loadout (different weapons).
Alternatively you could get a hell talon, that actually has rules for flying over units and dropping bombs which is a better comparison as it costs the same a xiphon
Though imho neither is going to make its points costs back due to hitting infantry whereas the xiphon is taking out high points cost units.
You can give the raptor a similar loadout to the xiphon on top of the 10 shot main gun, but it's not worth it over taking two xiphons for example.
It does fit the description of anti infantry strafing runs though. The storm eagle is similar but with 20-man transport capacity and only a little less dakka.
yeh the fireraptor just seems like too many eggs in one basket plus it's expensive $$$
i like the stormeagle because the 20 man capacity is epic. wish we had more large transports. At the very least something that can fit a squad of termis and a hq...
Has anyone run the numbers on mass infantry now with the new points changes? How do CSM measure up to Tactical Marines or Intercessors now? (I'm not expecting them to win, but I want to know how much they lose by.)
Could a mass infantry skew list with respawning red corsair 20man squads work now?
How about mass infantry alpha legion? Can their -1 to be hit bring 11pt CSM or 12pt chosen special weapon spam up to the level of tacs/intercessors with their combat doctrines? (-1 to be hit should beat an extra AP, but of course the loyalists have chapter traits too.)
How about Alpha Legion Rubrics, Plague Marines, or Noise Marines? They seem like they should be significantly more points efficient than before. But efficient enough?
Now that Alpha Legion has a Cloud of flies style strat, how about using it to protect a giant blob of cult marines?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/12/20 01:48:27
Drudge Dreadnought wrote: Has anyone run the numbers on mass infantry now with the new points changes? How do CSM measure up to Tactical Marines or Intercessors now? (I'm not expecting them to win, but I want to know how much they lose by.)
Intercessors outclass them by a large margin.
Drudge Dreadnought wrote: Could a mass infantry skew list with respawning red corsair 20man squads work now?
Probably not against NuMarines. Against everything else, occasionally. Against Grey Knights and Necrons, decent chance it works.
Drudge Dreadnought wrote: How about mass infantry alpha legion? Can their -1 to be hit bring 11pt CSM or 12pt chosen special weapon spam up to the level of tacs/intercessors with their combat doctrines? (-1 to be hit should beat an extra AP, but of course the loyalists have chapter traits too.)
Intercessors beat them with range and AP-2 guns on line infantry. That's before Stratagems and Chapter Tactics. Repulsors wipe out multiple units at a time, even with Alpha Legion Traits.
Drudge Dreadnought wrote: How about Alpha Legion Rubrics, Plague Marines, or Noise Marines? They seem like they should be significantly more points efficient than before. But efficient enough?
Not enough. The AP-2 guns with Tactical Doctrine mean a 5-man Intercessor squad can own a 10-man Cult Marine unit of any flavor. The 30" range means they are usually shooting before you, meaning you have less guns to shoot.
Drudge Dreadnought wrote: Now that Alpha Legion has a Cloud of flies style strat, how about using it to protect a giant blob of cult marines?
Drudge Dreadnought wrote: Has anyone run the numbers on mass infantry now with the new points changes? How do CSM measure up to Tactical Marines or Intercessors now? (I'm not expecting them to win, but I want to know how much they lose by.)
Intercessors outclass them by a large margin.
Drudge Dreadnought wrote: Could a mass infantry skew list with respawning red corsair 20man squads work now?
Probably not against NuMarines. Against everything else, occasionally. Against Grey Knights and Necrons, decent chance it works.
Drudge Dreadnought wrote: How about mass infantry alpha legion? Can their -1 to be hit bring 11pt CSM or 12pt chosen special weapon spam up to the level of tacs/intercessors with their combat doctrines? (-1 to be hit should beat an extra AP, but of course the loyalists have chapter traits too.)
Intercessors beat them with range and AP-2 guns on line infantry. That's before Stratagems and Chapter Tactics. Repulsors wipe out multiple units at a time, even with Alpha Legion Traits.
Drudge Dreadnought wrote: How about Alpha Legion Rubrics, Plague Marines, or Noise Marines? They seem like they should be significantly more points efficient than before. But efficient enough?
Not enough. The AP-2 guns with Tactical Doctrine mean a 5-man Intercessor squad can own a 10-man Cult Marine unit of any flavor. The 30" range means they are usually shooting before you, meaning you have less guns to shoot.
Drudge Dreadnought wrote: Now that Alpha Legion has a Cloud of flies style strat, how about using it to protect a giant blob of cult marines?
Let us know how that works out for you.
Yeah but how does it measure up adjusted for points?
Drudge Dreadnought wrote: (I'm not expecting them to win, but I want to know how much they lose by.)
Yeah but how does it measure up adjusted for points?
Drudge Dreadnought wrote: (I'm not expecting them to win, but I want to know how much they lose by.)
Think of it this way.
For each CSM model, you can remove one Intercessor every 8 shots.
For each Intercessor model, your opponent can remove one CSM model every 3 shots. And your opponent shoots first 50% of the time.
If the game were a pure shootout, how many more CSMs would you need to destroy all Intercessors and have at least one CSM left?
Yeah, but the CSM can take plasma, which threatens everything, and Reaper Chaincannons, which are extremely efficient at killing infantry. The comparison is a bit more complicated than this.
For 75 points, you get 8 S4 AP0 D1 shots and 8 S5 AP-1 D1 shots, all at BS3+, at 24". (Assuming you stood still.)
For 85 points, they get 10 S4 AP-1 or AP-2 D1 shots, at BS3+, all at 30".
So, let's give our CSM player round 1, and an extra body (86 points total). They walk up, fire 5 shots at S4 AP0 and 8 shots at S5 AP-1.
10/3 and 4 hits
5/3 and 8/3 wounds
5/9 and 4/3 failed saves
17/9 damage, or probably one dead Intercessor
Intercessors fire then, 8 shots.
16/3 hits
8/3 wounds
4/3 damage, or more than a dead CSM
Extrapolating from that, we can see the CSM will probably win. Their damage goes up as their accuracy does with the heavy weapon, and their last loss is the worst.
But an issue with that, is that that requires the SM player to play dumb. Deploy right at the line or near to it so you can walk forward and get shots T1.
Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne!
JNAProductions wrote: For 75 points, you get 8 S4 AP0 D1 shots and 8 S5 AP-1 D1 shots, all at BS3+, at 24". (Assuming you stood still.)
For 85 points, they get 10 S4 AP-1 or AP-2 D1 shots, at BS3+, all at 30".
So, let's give our CSM player round 1, and an extra body (86 points total). They walk up, fire 5 shots at S4 AP0 and 8 shots at S5 AP-1.
10/3 and 4 hits
5/3 and 8/3 wounds
5/9 and 4/3 failed saves
17/9 damage, or probably one dead Intercessor
Intercessors fire then, 8 shots.
16/3 hits
8/3 wounds
4/3 damage, or more than a dead CSM
Extrapolating from that, we can see the CSM will probably win. Their damage goes up as their accuracy does with the heavy weapon, and their last loss is the worst.
But an issue with that, is that that requires the SM player to play dumb. Deploy right at the line or near to it so you can walk forward and get shots T1.
Why were the CSM given an extra body?
I'm also guessing that the Aux Grenade Launcher probably doesn't help much? It's only a point (which is nice) but 3.5 S3 shots on average probably does worse than the 2 S4 AP-1 shots.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
