Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.
I guess he didn't have much shooting? Would be interested to know how that list fairs against a gun line army. Why tzeentch for the DP?
I think you should be able to hide your disco lord behind one or two of the LOS they are massive models with solid cover. Should help for a static gunline without loads of bastalisks.
To the first question (how many guns did he have?):
Spoiler:
He had the following
1 tank commander (cadian)
3 lascannon guardsman squads (cadian)
Guardsmen snipers
Bjorn (twin las)
Stormfang gunship with hellfrost
Primaris squads with some kind of assault 3 bolter
Infiltrator dreadnought
Redemotor dreadnough
Arjac
Bunch of... wolf somethings. Some were riding wolves. Wolfgaurd battleleaders? Idk. I lost track with all the wolves in the name.
Two wulfen squads ss/th Njal stormcaller
The list was definitely balanced I'd say. Decent amount of D6 damage with high ap. But he also had wulfen and dreadnoughts that could duck things up in cc.
So not as much shooting as IF or IH or pure guard. But it existed.
Between the IW stratagems: 6+++, and an Ap penalty (man does that cripple ap -2), plus being able to heal 7 wounds a turn... my guys were tough to take down.
Turn1 he felt 13 wounds to one, and 2 and 4 to the other two. Scored 2 points for titan slayer.
On my turn I healed the big guy for 7 wounds and the other 1 each (infernal regeneration).
The next turn he was set up to charge my most damaged one, but ended up killing it in the shooting phase instead. So his shooting did show up, proverbially speaking. Dealing 22 damage in one turn (I failed almost all my invuls and 6+++).
The fact that it happened to blow up is what won me that game.
Keeping in mind, I went second. If I had gone first I could have easily removed his tank commander and stormfang before they got a chance to shoot.
To the second (hiding discordants and tzeentch dp):
Spoiler:
Yeah, it was very easy to hide the discordants behind them. Also with itc rules I started camped out behind some LoS blocking terrain. It's really turn 3 onwards where it gets risky. But I'll play someone who uses basilikis and mortars and exorcists soon, so we'll see.
Daemon prince of tzeentch... okay so a few reasons I'm gonna play around, largely due to tactical flexibility:
1) Relic: this is probably not the best idea but I always struggle against units like shield captains and wulfen. I want a way to negate invul saves. Tzeentch gives me the option of a sword for the daemon prince that can negate invuln. Plus slapping that on a fly model lets him be a real threat to most things.
2) Psyker: I need more spell options. Warptime, Death Hex, Prescience, all things I want. And in a list with such a low model count, having a solid ability to deny psychic powers that could hurt my key units is important. As tzeentch I could potentially use Weaver of Fates on my disco lord, or the DP himself. This combined with MoP aura would net either one a 3++. Circumstantial, but not a bad thing to have in the right scenario. Lastly the tzeentch stratagem could let this guy cast an extra spell in a pinch.
3) Warlord: Potential alternative warlord to the discordant. Keeps the Daemonsmith aura protected via character rule, while also a large enough base to keep multiple KLOS in range.
I know slaanesh (rapacious claws, delightful agonies) and khorne (skullreaver) are the default DP loadouts... but this just had some nice synergy and tactical flexibility.
I'll admit though, I'm really debating this vs a Jump sorcerer. It would mean I'd need to keep the discordant my warlord though due to aura range and base size.
With thousand sons demon princes costing more, and normal ones costing less.. maybe Red Corsairs might be a better option for bringing them in. You could bring 2 and haron blackheart in a supreme command, give both princes a relic, they can advance and charge, and you end up with 3 command points instead of one.
40K Armies: Ultramarines, Tau, Ynnari, Orks, and Thousand Sons.
My RC Battalion is 2 Sorcs + 3 CSM squads. Gives me 8CP, Sorcs can buff different Legions. Then I can keep my Chaos Lords, DPs, Dark Apostles in with the specific legion battalions they need to be able to buff.
"In relating the circumstances which have led to my confinement in this refuge for the demented, I am aware that my present position will create a natural doubt of the authenticity of my narrative."
So, while looking through Battlescribe to learn some nice combos with the Alpha Legion, I found a little talked about HQ option called Lord Arkos.
Impressive stat line with pretty fluffy special rules. His unique blade is perfect for blending guardsmen equivalent troops but also with a few prayers/Psychic powers will be hilarious. A diabolic strength Arkos will never fail to wound a T3 model (unless it has an ability that makes certain rolls auto fail like transhuman physiology) with exalted champion WT he has 8 attacks on the charge and with presence cast on him triggering DttFE on 5+ so he can really clear chaff.
However, you can make him very dirty with the WT flames of spite. Give him soultear portent prayer and use VotLW with diabolic strength. Congrats. You now auto wound T5 models (again a caveat for auto fail on x roll abilities) and cause an additional MW on a 3+ with 7 attacks in the charge. Ouch.
Lastly, he can infiltrate up to 12" away for added spice, and he carries a combi melta to go with his -2AP D3 knife!
40k: Thousand Sons World Eaters
30k: Imperial Fists 405th Company
I’m not sure how the PBCs were included — since they are a DG unit, I guess he ran as Nurgle Faction and gave up the Daemons Codex Loci to take better vehicles. I’d guess the Possessed were buffed defensively with Miasma/Benediction/Cursed Earth to be -3 to hit at >12” and saving on a 4++, and were buffed offensively with Portent, VotLW, Virulent Blessing and Infernal Power to reroll their 1s and hit for double damage on 4’s. Cool concept and I will pat myself on the back because I thought Possessed were 100% viable! What I don’t get is the summoning, it’s most likely tied to the Slaneesh-marked Apostle. Contorted Epitome perhaps? Nonetheless...
I’m not sure how the PBCs were included — since they are a DG unit, I guess he ran as Nurgle Faction and gave up the Daemons Codex Loci to take better vehicles. I’d guess the Possessed were buffed defensively with Miasma/Benediction/Cursed Earth to be -3 to hit at >12” and saving on a 4++, and were buffed offensively with Portent, VotLW, Virulent Blessing and Infernal Power to reroll their 1s and hit for double damage on 4’s. Cool concept and I will pat myself on the back because I thought Possessed were 100% viable! What I don’t get is the summoning, it’s most likely tied to the Slaneesh-marked Apostle. Contorted Epitome perhaps? Nonetheless...
Nicely done!
Very smart including both PBC and AL possessed in the same list. Despite getting non-stop buffs every revision Possessed are hard countered by tfc tremor shells, which can be easily mitigated by PBC mortars and the Conceal strat. Despite all the buffs marines are still quite inefficient at killing PBCs so having them as your screen for possessed is ideal. Meanwhile against armies that are efficient at killing PBC like Tau and IG they will cry at the -3 to hit possessed.
199 is enough to get some really flexible stuff in there. A horror blob to deal with horde (can be buffed by tson pskers) or a plaguebearer blob are both good candidates.
mrtomski wrote: Hang on a sec, can PBC be used in a daemons or csm detachment then? Could I have iron warriors PBCs?
PBC can be used in detachments due to the heretic astartes keyword not their legion keyword. So no, you cannot have iron warriors PBCs, you COULD combine PBC into an iron warrior detachment and lose legion traits for both if you were inclined - or put both in separate detachments in the same army if you wanted both their legion traits/strats. Or in reference to the above list - you can link them by chaos deity rather than heretic astartes keyord...
TLDR: outside of deathguard PBC are in other detach either due to shared 'nurgle' or 'heretic astartes' keywords.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/12/16 22:02:07
TJ Lanigan is a legend. He's been on the Art of War podcast a few times and it's well worth a listen for his take on how to build good chaos lists. He's been running triple PBCs for a while now and until this GT was regularly running one of (and sometimes both!) Magnus and Mortarion. His results totally repudiate the massive negativity in some parts of the online community.
As for why he picks PBCs, he has said that they are there to plink off wounds from targets like TFCs and other units hiding in the backfield and are a good way getting Kill One/More. They are also so tough to kill that your opponent doesn't really want to shoot at them.
I was going to write that I didn't think this applies to the Hellforged Scorpius but having just done the maths on it I think they could actually work. On average dice they will kill a TFC in one shooting phase while you need 3 PBCs for the same outcome. The issue is that PBCs are far tougher to kill but you can probably mitigate this by deploying your Scorpius defensively.
I'm guessing he was using the Conceal strat to protect the Possessed wherever possible but I'm not sure what units he was keeping in front of them.
I’m not sure how the PBCs were included — since they are a DG unit, I guess he ran as Nurgle Faction and gave up the Daemons Codex Loci to take better vehicles. I’d guess the Possessed were buffed defensively with Miasma/Benediction/Cursed Earth to be -3 to hit at >12” and saving on a 4++, and were buffed offensively with Portent, VotLW, Virulent Blessing and Infernal Power to reroll their 1s and hit for double damage on 4’s. Cool concept and I will pat myself on the back because I thought Possessed were 100% viable! What I don’t get is the summoning, it’s most likely tied to the Slaneesh-marked Apostle. Contorted Epitome perhaps? Nonetheless...
Nicely done!
He won using a big squad of possessed? My hats off to him. Respect!
Very smart including both PBC and AL possessed in the same list. Despite getting non-stop buffs every revision Possessed are hard countered by tfc tremor shells, which can be easily mitigated by PBC mortars and the Conceal strat. Despite all the buffs marines are still quite inefficient at killing PBCs so having them as your screen for possessed is ideal. Meanwhile against armies that are efficient at killing PBC like Tau and IG they will cry at the -3 to hit possessed.
199 is enough to get some really flexible stuff in there. A horror blob to deal with horde (can be buffed by tson pskers) or a plaguebearer blob are both good candidates.
He can also summon a gnarlmaw if he needs to advance and charge. Or even use the horrors splitting trick to tie something down if he wants.
saint_red wrote: I'm guessing he was using the Conceal strat to protect the Possessed wherever possible but I'm not sure what units he was keeping in front of them.
Nurglings, and also quite possibly the PBCs - with plague spewers and perhaps a summoned FGM, they’re a remarkably potent bulldozer if you can prevent tripoint
…It occurs to me that is yet another feather in the cap of Night Lords Warp Talons
Correct me if i am wrong but how is that a legal list? Under the deamons codex it specifically says to be battle forged every model in that detachment has to have the deamon and chaos FACTION keyword. Plague burst crawlers dont have the deamon faction keyword. This would mean it's not a battle forged detachment right?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/12/17 13:49:29
A PBC has 4 faction keywords: Chaos, Nurgle, Heretic Astartes, Death Guard.
The entire army must share Chaos. A detachment must share 1 keyword other than Chaos. So you can make it a generic NURGLE detachment, though you’ll lose codex advantages within pure DG detachments like Inexorable Advance and Stratagems. It’s exactly the same principle as SM doctrines.
saint_red wrote: TJ Lanigan is a legend. He's been on the Art of War podcast a few times and it's well worth a listen for his take on how to build good chaos lists. He's been running triple PBCs for a while now and until this GT was regularly running one of (and sometimes both!) Magnus and Mortarion. His results totally repudiate the massive negativity in some parts of the online community.
As for why he picks PBCs, he has said that they are there to plink off wounds from targets like TFCs and other units hiding in the backfield and are a good way getting Kill One/More. They are also so tough to kill that your opponent doesn't really want to shoot at them.
I was going to write that I didn't think this applies to the Hellforged Scorpius but having just done the maths on it I think they could actually work. On average dice they will kill a TFC in one shooting phase while you need 3 PBCs for the same outcome. The issue is that PBCs are far tougher to kill but you can probably mitigate this by deploying your Scorpius defensively.
I'm guessing he was using the Conceal strat to protect the Possessed wherever possible but I'm not sure what units he was keeping in front of them.
The Scorpius also benefits from HQ stuff like Abigail giving full rerolls and Iron Warriors giving rerolls of 1 to wound.
For basic independence though Crawlers win hands down.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
Yoyoyo wrote: A PBC has 4 faction keywords: Chaos, Nurgle, Heretic Astartes, Death Guard.
The entire army must share Chaos. A detachment must share 1 keyword other than Chaos. So you can make it a generic NURGLE detachment, though you’ll lose codex advantages within pure DG detachments like Inexorable Advance and Stratagems. It’s exactly the same principle as SM doctrines.
So he loses both nurgle deamon abilities and death guard abilities doing that correct? Because like I pointed out it's not a deamon codex detachment. I am just trying to wrap my head around how this works exactly.
Also with daemons you can make a detachment of pure daemons and then take a nurgle detachment say a load of plaguebearers, pbc and nurgle csm sorcerers.
You can still use all the auras on the daemons, and pbc and sorcerers don't really benifit that much from stratergems or legion traits.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: The Scorpius also benefits from HQ stuff like Abigail giving full rerolls and Iron Warriors giving rerolls of 1 to wound.
Iron Warriors DP maybe. Highly mobile, grants rerolls, has access to the Relic Axe, character protection and a psyker so he props up anything you’re using as cannon fodder.
I’m not sure of the exact composition but a Winged DP, Cultists, Havocs, and a Scorpius gives a nice mix of indirect and ignores cover shooting to deal with nuisances like TFCs and Eliminators. It’s sub-600pts as a patrol but you could probably build into a lot of different directions.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: The Scorpius also benefits from HQ stuff like Abigail giving full rerolls and Iron Warriors giving rerolls of 1 to wound.
Iron Warriors DP maybe. Highly mobile, grants rerolls, has access to the Relic Axe, character protection and a psyker so he props up anything you’re using as cannon fodder.
I’m not sure of the exact composition but a Winged DP, Cultists, Havocs, and a Scorpius gives a nice mix of indirect and ignores cover shooting to deal with nuisances like TFCs and Eliminators. It’s sub-600pts as a patrol but you could probably build into a lot of different directions.
probably not too bad if you'd go with a battalion instead. but it would certainly make for an interesting anti marine add on.
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: The Scorpius also benefits from HQ stuff like Abigail giving full rerolls and Iron Warriors giving rerolls of 1 to wound.
Iron Warriors DP maybe. Highly mobile, grants rerolls, has access to the Relic Axe, character protection and a psyker so he props up anything you’re using as cannon fodder.
I’m not sure of the exact composition but a Winged DP, Cultists, Havocs, and a Scorpius gives a nice mix of indirect and ignores cover shooting to deal with nuisances like TFCs and Eliminators. It’s sub-600pts as a patrol but you could probably build into a lot of different directions.
Which relic axe do you mean? The mortal wound one - didn't look that good to me...
Tbf a good old Terminator lord is pretty resilient to eliminator shooting. With the insidium relic he's t5 and 7 wounds 2+ save and you can spend a strat to lower ap by 1. They're not getting theouh him anytime soon.
I could see a point to the mortal wound axe with the flawless host, those dp can put out 21+ wounding attacks easily enough turning that into 10 mortal wounds but I dont think that is better than a normal demonic claws attack.
Has anyone compiled a list of auras this strat should prioritize?
I'm looking to creating a cheat sheet to be used at my games.
So far that I've seen in this thread, I have:
-Turn off IHWL auras.
-Turn off Saviour Protocols of the drone unit protecting a Riptide.
-Turn off Orikan's +1 to RP and 5++ invuln save auras.
-Turn off advance + charge and morale immunity auras that an Ork Warboss gives.
-Turn off Painboy FnP auras.
-Turn Abaddon's Fearless and re-roll auras off.
-Turn off Synapse.
-Turn off Unquestioning Loyalty, morale immunity and +1 hit auras that the GSCHQs have.
...anyone have others to add?
I don't want to pepper my opponents with oodles of aura questions so that I don't give away that I'm likely to use the Vox Scream strat....
You take alpha legion with a basic lord, basic sorcerer, and a squad of 5 Havocs with Laser Cannons.
1 CP on the Viligilus formation that affects Havocs, Lords, and Oblits
Take the WL trait that lets you re-roll 1's to wound aura for the lord out of that formation.
Concede first turn to your opponent, wait to see how they deploy and then counter deploy with some units in front of the Havocs, and the Sor and Lord within 6 of the Havocs.
End of your opponents first movement phase, you use the 1CP strat that lets your Havocs shoot. 3 to hit re-roll 1's, 3 to wound re-roll 1's against any nasty vehicle your opponent has.
Beginning of your opponent's shooting phase, you drop the AL strat on the Havocs that prevents them from being targeted unless closest, and since you saw your opponents set up, you should have set it up so that there is little to no way they can shoot the Havocs this turn.
Take the shooting on the rest of your army.
Your physic phase cast Prescience on the Havocs.
Your shooting phase, use VotLW on Havocs, shoot imposing enemy vehicle with Havocs now 2 to hit re-roll 1's, 2 to wound re-roll 1's.
Use the Slannesh strat, and shoot them again.
At this point you have now fired your LC Havocs three times by the end of your first shooting phase, and there is little to nothing your opponent can do. Also this set up is not very expensive at all and is only 5 CP wih VotLW, which you can skimp on if you want.
I think AL has a lot of potential for havocs with both the targeting strat and the teleport strat (teleport Chain havocs turn one into range).
You take alpha legion with a basic lord, basic sorcerer, and a squad of 5 Havocs with Laser Cannons.
1 CP on the Viligilus formation that affects Havocs, Lords, and Oblits
Take the WL trait that lets you re-roll 1's to wound aura for the lord out of that formation.
Concede first turn to your opponent, wait to see how they deploy and then counter deploy with some units in front of the Havocs, and the Sor and Lord within 6 of the Havocs.
End of your opponents first movement phase, you use the 1CP strat that lets your Havocs shoot. 3 to hit re-roll 1's, 3 to wound re-roll 1's against any nasty vehicle your opponent has.
Beginning of your opponent's shooting phase, you drop the AL strat on the Havocs that prevents them from being targeted unless closest, and since you saw your opponents set up, you should have set it up so that there is little to no way they can shoot the Havocs this turn.
Take the shooting on the rest of your army.
Your physic phase cast Prescience on the Havocs.
Your shooting phase, use VotLW on Havocs, shoot imposing enemy vehicle with Havocs now 2 to hit re-roll 1's, 2 to wound re-roll 1's.
Use the Slannesh strat, and shoot them again.
At this point you have now fired your LC Havocs three times by the end of your first shooting phase, and there is little to nothing your opponent can do. Also this set up is not very expensive at all and is only 5 CP wih VotLW, which you can skimp on if you want.
I think AL has a lot of potential for havocs with both the targeting strat and the teleport strat (teleport Chain havocs turn one into range).
I ran AL/RC/IW this weekend (3 battalions, 21 CP).
I ran the Havocs as IW, used the Siege Master WL trait from IW because the one from DB only works on vehicles. Ran them in a Battalion so each squad of Havocs had their own Cultist squad to be cannon fodder if necessary.
Used the Havocs first turn to pop a vehicle (Methodical Annihilation really does a good job of making Lascannons/Missile Launchers less swingy), so Methodical Annihilation, Veterans, Endless, with Warpsight Plea, they're hitting on 2s, re-rolling 1 both to hit and wound, firing twice.
Once the vehicle was popped, used the AL strat Sabotaged Armory, vehicle blew up in the middle of my opponent's army.
In general really liking the way AL/IW can work off each other and protect their units. Of the new strats available I used, Conceal, Sabotaged Armory, Cannon Fodder, Methodical Annihilation, We Are Alpharius.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/12/17 19:37:22
"In relating the circumstances which have led to my confinement in this refuge for the demented, I am aware that my present position will create a natural doubt of the authenticity of my narrative."
xeen wrote: Take the shooting on the rest of your army.
That’s the crux. It’s not an afterthought either. How much will you lose in the process of protecting ~150pts of Havocs? And if you’re capable of tanking an entire army’s worth of firepower on T1, why do you need some form of alpha strike?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
mrtomski wrote: Which relic axe do you mean? The mortal wound one - didn't look that good to me...
It’s an IW specific relic, +3S, AP-3, flat 2D and hits for D3 MW against vehicles on unmodified 5’s
If you thought I meant the Daemon Weapon one? It’s only useful on an Exalted Champ hunting characters.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/12/17 20:10:48
Hi all, what do you think of the forge world Hellwright on Dark Abeyant.
I'm thinking if getting one for my deamon engine list as it fits the theme nicely.
I'd give him insidium relic and the auto hit on 6s WL trait. The idea is that he would hide behind a lord of skulls and any other engines in my list.
With an 8 inch move he can almost keep up, has decent short range shooting, can repair, heals a wound himself each turn, with character rule protection.
Hes 136 points though which feels a little steep. And no reroll aura etc.
Thousand Sons 
World Eaters
Imperial Fists 405th Company 
