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Roknar wrote: Isn't the Wordleaters CP gain broken? In that all CP gaining methods are limited to 1 CP per round and this costs 1 CP, except forthe specifically excluded methods named in the faq, which this is not.
I think the best home for Oblits now is AL, hands down, 100%, they will be in nearly every single AL list I write from now on. The ability to give them character protection is off the chain.
grouchoben wrote: I think the best home for Oblits now is AL, hands down, 100%, they will be in nearly every single AL list I write from now on. The ability to give them character protection is off the chain.
I think IW is an honorable mention also. You can use cultists and the same way to give character protection. And the rampant techno virus and tank hunter startergems are amazing. Also they can ignore 1 point of AP.
Only problem is that they will eat CP for breakfast.
mrtomski wrote: Hey guys I may have missed it but do traits only apply to infintry etc still?
Did they change any legion traits?
Nope, legion traits are still the same.
Thanks, alpha legion seeming pretty damn good now then.
Let us pray to the dark gods for some point drops.
Why? I'd rather have 2w infantry cheaper for worse equipment then even cheaper 1 W marine models which will never work in this massed fire edition.
Agreed. Csm shouldn't be cheap chafe units. We need better stats.
Glad to see people are starting to agree with me that Chaos Marines are poorly handled.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
grouchoben wrote: I think the best home for Oblits now is AL, hands down, 100%, they will be in nearly every single AL list I write from now on. The ability to give them character protection is off the chain.
Indeed. Put anything in front of them that's fast like Raptors and they're good to go.
Not that Raptors are exactly good but it's a use.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/11/19 17:42:40
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
I don't think they should put csm on par with primaris, but they definitely should boost their offensive output. Maybe give them all assault 3 bolters and an extra attack.
Or give them all ap -1 and ap -4 on wound rolls of 6+ like slanesh claws.
Has anyone done any calculations on the power of excruciating frequencies Noise Marine squads? Thinking of a squad jumping out of a Termite (or a rhino, I guess), maybe with a lord or champion to give them some melee bite.
10 Noise Marines, 3 shots each (blastmaster for one of them), S5, D2. VOTLW? Prescience? Then endless cacophony.
You could (though...not sure you'd want to) even then follow up with Honouring the Prince for a near-guaranteed charge. Probably better to save that for something else though.
Niiru wrote: Has anyone done any calculations on the power of excruciating frequencies Noise Marine squads? Thinking of a squad jumping out of a Termite (or a rhino, I guess), maybe with a lord or champion to give them some melee bite.
10 Noise Marines, 3 shots each (blastmaster for one of them), S5, D2. VOTLW? Prescience? Then endless cacophony.
You could (though...not sure you'd want to) even then follow up with Honouring the Prince for a near-guaranteed charge. Probably better to save that for something else though.
You'd kill 18.6 primaris with a lord, VotLW, EC, excruciating frequencies and prescience. Or do 28 wounds to a knight.
Not a bad little bomb for 350 points (terrax and noise marines) and 4cp.
Niiru wrote: Has anyone done any calculations on the power of excruciating frequencies Noise Marine squads? Thinking of a squad jumping out of a Termite (or a rhino, I guess), maybe with a lord or champion to give them some melee bite.
10 Noise Marines, 3 shots each (blastmaster for one of them), S5, D2. VOTLW? Prescience? Then endless cacophony.
You could (though...not sure you'd want to) even then follow up with Honouring the Prince for a near-guaranteed charge. Probably better to save that for something else though.
You'd kill 18.6 primaris with a lord, VotLW, EC, excruciating frequencies and prescience. Or do 28 wounds to a knight.
Not a bad little bomb for 350 points (terrax and noise marines) and 4cp.
Is the EC in this the exalted champion? (Dakka abbreviations are kinda annoying, as the site only lists a fraction of the possible abbreviation answers, and hardly ever lists the ones that actually matter lol) Does that mean those 28 wounds are including a fight phase? Cos the champion does nothing to help shooting.
If that's 28 wounds in just the shooting phase, that seems pretty good. If its shooting and fight, then it's still ok I guess but relies on making the charge (which uses more CP)
Edit:
Also, would you go with a Rhino or a Terrax?
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/11/19 20:17:59
Niiru wrote: Has anyone done any calculations on the power of excruciating frequencies Noise Marine squads? Thinking of a squad jumping out of a Termite (or a rhino, I guess), maybe with a lord or champion to give them some melee bite.
10 Noise Marines, 3 shots each (blastmaster for one of them), S5, D2. VOTLW? Prescience? Then endless cacophony.
You could (though...not sure you'd want to) even then follow up with Honouring the Prince for a near-guaranteed charge. Probably better to save that for something else though.
You'd kill 18.6 primaris with a lord, VotLW, EC, excruciating frequencies and prescience. Or do 28 wounds to a knight.
Not a bad little bomb for 350 points (terrax and noise marines) and 4cp.
Is the EC in this the exalted champion? (Dakka abbreviations are kinda annoying, as the site only lists a fraction of the possible abbreviation answers, and hardly ever lists the ones that actually matter lol) Does that mean those 28 wounds are including a fight phase? Cos the champion does nothing to help shooting.
If that's 28 wounds in just the shooting phase, that seems pretty good. If its shooting and fight, then it's still ok I guess but relies on making the charge (which uses more CP)
Edit:
Also, would you go with a Rhino or a Terrax?
Pretty sure EC = Endless Cacophony here.
Bharring wrote: At worst, you'll spend all your time and money on a hobby you don't enjoy, hate everything you're doing, and drive no value out of what should be the best times of your life.
Niiru wrote: Has anyone done any calculations on the power of excruciating frequencies Noise Marine squads? Thinking of a squad jumping out of a Termite (or a rhino, I guess), maybe with a lord or champion to give them some melee bite.
10 Noise Marines, 3 shots each (blastmaster for one of them), S5, D2. VOTLW? Prescience? Then endless cacophony.
You could (though...not sure you'd want to) even then follow up with Honouring the Prince for a near-guaranteed charge. Probably better to save that for something else though.
You'd kill 18.6 primaris with a lord, VotLW, EC, excruciating frequencies and prescience. Or do 28 wounds to a knight.
Not a bad little bomb for 350 points (terrax and noise marines) and 4cp.
Is the EC in this the exalted champion? (Dakka abbreviations are kinda annoying, as the site only lists a fraction of the possible abbreviation answers, and hardly ever lists the ones that actually matter lol) Does that mean those 28 wounds are including a fight phase? Cos the champion does nothing to help shooting.
If that's 28 wounds in just the shooting phase, that seems pretty good. If its shooting and fight, then it's still ok I guess but relies on making the charge (which uses more CP)
Edit:
Also, would you go with a Rhino or a Terrax?
Pretty sure EC = Endless Cacophony here.
AHH of course, sorry I thought he had already mentioned cacophony separately, I think my brain just assumed. Makes total sense now
Not sure if this result makes them decent or not haha
Yeah EC= Endless Cacophony. That's just shooting, obviously you need a lord and sorcerer or a daemon prince.
Since they're troops for emporers children I'd just stuff 2 or 3 rhinos with them. It's only 296 points and they're useful without all the strats and if you go first, and have 2 rhinos full, you should have at least two lots of buffed up shooting out of them.
small_gods wrote: Yeah EC= Endless Cacophony. That's just shooting, obviously you need a lord and sorcerer or a daemon prince.
Since they're troops for emporers children I'd just stuff 2 or 3 rhinos with them. It's only 296 points and they're useful without all the strats and if you go first, and have 2 rhinos full, you should have at least two lots of buffed up shooting out of them.
You'd only be able to buff one of the units per turn, but it does mean you're more likely to have a buffed unit where you need one
I’d rather put them in a dreadclaw, you can have a priest with them with the reroll wounds relic and combined with a lord dropping nearby you’re really cooking.
52 str 5 D2 ignore cover shots rerolling wounds and with a lord rerolling 1s to hit or if you can hit them with prescience as well make them rerolling everything. You can murder anything.
demontalons wrote: I’d rather put them in a dreadclaw, you can have a priest with them with the reroll wounds relic and combined with a lord dropping nearby you’re really cooking.
52 str 5 D2 ignore cover shots rerolling wounds and with a lord rerolling 1s to hit or if you can hit them with prescience as well make them rerolling everything. You can murder anything.
I'd probably drop the priest simply because of not getting to use the prayers while you're not on the table, and put in a Champion instead. Fluffier, and it means you can throw the squad into combat and get rerolls of hits and wounds. But a Lord+Sorcerer is probably going to be the better combo.
Anyone considered using the EC combat elixirs? If it was only 1CP I'd say they were a great upgrade choice, but for 2CP it seems expensive. Getting T5 terminators, or S5 noise marines, might be worthwhile if planned around..
Maybe add +2" of movement to a huge pack of Raptors? You can move 28" across the board with Warptime, wrap yourself up in a nasty gunline to disrupt it, and follow up on T2 with your slower assault units.
mrtomski wrote: Hey guys I may have missed it but do traits only apply to infintry etc still?
Did they change any legion traits?
Nope, legion traits are still the same.
Thanks, alpha legion seeming pretty damn good now then.
Let us pray to the dark gods for some point drops.
Why? I'd rather have 2w infantry cheaper for worse equipment then even cheaper 1 W marine models which will never work in this massed fire edition.
Agreed. Csm shouldn't be cheap chafe units. We need better stats.
Glad to see people are starting to agree with me that Chaos Marines are poorly handled.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
grouchoben wrote: I think the best home for Oblits now is AL, hands down, 100%, they will be in nearly every single AL list I write from now on. The ability to give them character protection is off the chain.
Indeed. Put anything in front of them that's fast like Raptors and they're good to go.
Not that Raptors are exactly good but it's a use.
Raptors are one of the csm units that need improved stats the most. They should at least be as good as vanguard veterans. I'd still prefer they get the onslaught rule from hh even if it came with a points increase.
Although night lords did get it as a warlord trait in faith and fury. They also got a warlord trait equivalent to a talent for murder.
Just wish gw could have gone that extra step and made it our trait.
Here's another thought - Renascent infiltration and plasma chosen. Basically gives a big unit of chosen deepstrike for 1CP. Basically a much cheaper (but also squishier) plasma-terminator suicide squad.
You could also do it with Havocs, reaper chaincannons would love being plopped down within 24" behind a nice target. But you can only ever target 5 havocs, not sure if 10 chosen can end up being a better option.
Niiru wrote: Here's another thought - Renascent infiltration and plasma chosen. Basically gives a big unit of chosen deepstrike for 1CP. Basically a much cheaper (but also squishier) plasma-terminator suicide squad.
You could also do it with Havocs, reaper chaincannons would love being plopped down within 24" behind a nice target. But you can only ever target 5 havocs, not sure if 10 chosen can end up being a better option.
Renascent Infiltration seems like a really amazing strat if you can leverage it correctly. Ideally you'd have several units that can hit hard in short range, so say 2 squads of reaper chaincannons havoc's, some termis, and maybe a chosen plasma drop squad. You can use the huge variety of movement shenanigans AL has to concentrate an attack, split your forces, redeploy, or even launch a feint. Heck you can even just be lazy and pick up a small squad to do something like secure linebreaker. Until they tell us what turn it stops working, that strat is gonna have some amazing abilities. The ability to just drop in, nuke something, and then set up to do it again is just great, especially for slow units like termis. Main trick is using it in conjunction with other movement abilities.
I know you can't really math a lot of what these abilities bring to the table, but I really feel AL is going to be a very high skillcap army. You can vary what your army does so incredibly much just by the pregame WLT, relics, and pysker powers, as well as how you leverage your strats
Take the termi lord with a combo Bolter and power sword. A very simple model. So to start, there's the easy choice of sniper lord. You can make a judgement call on which Bolter relic is more useful for your prey. But let's say youre against a knight list. Well you can take his WLT as the redeployment option to throw off the knights deployment and give him the hyrda's wail to screw up their CP reliance. And it's not a big deal that he can't deepstrike, because you just use renescant infiltration to redeploy him after he's done his hydras wail, because you trigger the hydras wail start of round and the RI strat is end of movement phase, either for objectives or to finish a target. Or alternatively, you could give him the WLT/relic combo to make him -3 to hit at range and use him as a way to protect a unit like obliterators or havoc's dropping in with conceal. Drop him and his pals on the second floor of a building and they're probably safe from melee too. You could even do something really goofy like the redeploy to a friendly squad WLT and Mindveil for a super slippery termi Lord that just zips around the board. It's a shame he can't take a thunder hammer of you could even make him a poor man's smash Lord with that combo. All perfectly reasonable uses for him. I'm sure some are more useful than others, but that just shows the flexibility even a single character could have, and that's before interactions with other units like a sorceror. Remember, you could make these choices game by game at a tournament by letting him be the secondary warlord and relic, that single model could do radically different jobs each game. He's essentially a Swiss army knife.
I have a feeling there are a ton of combos and tricks just waiting to be figured out with AL. It may not be the most popular net list, but I can see it throwing people seriously on tilt at a local tournament level. It really has just about every tool you need to screw an opponents plans up, IF you can keep it fed with CP.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2019/11/20 07:31:27
'I've played Guard for years, and the best piece of advice is to always utilize the Guard's best special rule: "we roll more dice than you" ' - stormleader
"Sector Imperialis: 25mm and 40mm Round Bases (40+20) 26€ (Including 32 skulls for basing) " GW design philosophy in a nutshell
Do we know if an AL Character can use the Demon Shell Strat with Vipers Wail? Could be usefull to popp some MW on a enemy character with the sniper Trait
Empty your mind, be formless, shapeless — like soup. Now you put soup in a cup, it becomes the cup; You put soup into a bottle it becomes the bottle; You put it in a teapot it becomes the teapot. Now soup can flow or it can crash. Be soup, my friend.
Waaaghbert wrote: Do we know if an AL Character can use the Demon Shell Strat with Vipers Wail? Could be usefull to popp some MW on a enemy character with the sniper Trait
There is no such thing as a vipers wail. If you mean vipers bite the answer is no. Daemon shells refers to bolt weapons. Vipers bite is vipers bite, its not a bolt weapon, as needed for the daemon shells stratagem.
Waaaghbert wrote: Do we know if an AL Character can use the Demon Shell Strat with Vipers Wail? Could be usefull to popp some MW on a enemy character with the sniper Trait
There is no such thing as a vipers wail. If you mean vipers bite the answer is no. Daemon shells refers to bolt weapons. Vipers bite is vipers bite, its not a bolt weapon, as needed for the daemon shells stratagem.
Oh, I was looking at the rumour round-up posted a few pages back, didnt know it was called "Vipers Bite".
Meh, sad, but expected
Empty your mind, be formless, shapeless — like soup. Now you put soup in a cup, it becomes the cup; You put soup into a bottle it becomes the bottle; You put it in a teapot it becomes the teapot. Now soup can flow or it can crash. Be soup, my friend.
Latro_ wrote: was thinking a AL warpsmith might be fun if you can get him there to char snipe (rhino, drop pod, termie WT etc).
Combi melta, Melta and a flamer.
Why not the combibolter, or combiplas?
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
Waaaghbert wrote: Do we know if an AL Character can use the Demon Shell Strat with Vipers Wail? Could be usefull to popp some MW on a enemy character with the sniper Trait
There is no such thing as a vipers wail. If you mean vipers bite the answer is no. Daemon shells refers to bolt weapons. Vipers bite is vipers bite, its not a bolt weapon, as needed for the daemon shells stratagem.
Oh, I was looking at the rumour round-up posted a few pages back, didnt know it was called "Vipers Bite".
Meh, sad, but expected
Wait a sec, that means it doesn't trigger Bolter Disciplin as well, does it?
Empty your mind, be formless, shapeless — like soup. Now you put soup in a cup, it becomes the cup; You put soup into a bottle it becomes the bottle; You put it in a teapot it becomes the teapot. Now soup can flow or it can crash. Be soup, my friend.
Waaaghbert wrote: Do we know if an AL Character can use the Demon Shell Strat with Vipers Wail? Could be usefull to popp some MW on a enemy character with the sniper Trait
There is no such thing as a vipers wail. If you mean vipers bite the answer is no. Daemon shells refers to bolt weapons. Vipers bite is vipers bite, its not a bolt weapon, as needed for the daemon shells stratagem.
Oh, I was looking at the rumour round-up posted a few pages back, didnt know it was called "Vipers Bite".
Meh, sad, but expected
Wait a sec, that means it doesn't trigger Bolter Disciplin as well, does it?
It does trigger bolter discipline thankfully. It says 'including bolt weapon profile of relics such as blood song and lions wrath'. So we should be pretty safe.
Also with the lord on bike (until he gets mothballed) you could shoot with relic and use daemon shells on the bike's combi bolter. Very handy for finishing off a character a turn.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/11/20 10:07:10
It does trigher bolter discipline thankfully. It says 'including bolt weapon profile of relics such as blood song and lions wrath'. So we should be pretty safe.
Also with the lord on bike (until he gets mothballed) you could shoot with relic and use daemon shells on the bike's combi bolter. Very habdy for finishing off a character a turn.
Unfortunately vipers bite doesnt have any bolt weapon profile, so no bolter discipline.
However, an AL headhunter lord on bike with vipers bite can snipe characters with the vipers bite and use daemon shells with the bikes twin boltguns.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/11/20 10:09:42
It does trigher bolter discipline thankfully. It says 'including bolt weapon profile of relics such as blood song and lions wrath'. So we should be pretty safe.
Also with the lord on bike (until he gets mothballed) you could shoot with relic and use daemon shells on the bike's combi bolter. Very habdy for finishing off a character a turn.
Unfortunately vipers bite doesnt have any bolt weapon profile, so no bolter discipline.
However, an AL headhunter lord on bike with vipers bite can snipe characters with the vipers bite and use daemon shells with the bikes twin boltguns.
Why would it not have Bolter discipline, it's a combi Bolter with a relic statline. This is like arguing the Hammer of Sunderance didn't interact with Grinding Advance because it "wasn't a battlecannon". Which people tried to do, and were proven wrong. Just because it was no longer verbatim called a "battlecannon" in that instance didn't mean it lost the interaction with grinding advance. Yes I'm sure in some legalese mindset it doesn't work but intent in the past shows it should be fine. At worst, it'll get FAQ'D to clarify that yes, its still a bolt weapon, but I can't see the average person arguing against it.
Its a bolt weapon, it just gets a fancier profile. It still starts its life as a combi bolter. I can't think of a relic that makes it stop counting as its original weapon type, if there is its news to me. It should work with Bolter discipline just fine.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/11/20 13:30:22
'I've played Guard for years, and the best piece of advice is to always utilize the Guard's best special rule: "we roll more dice than you" ' - stormleader
"Sector Imperialis: 25mm and 40mm Round Bases (40+20) 26€ (Including 32 skulls for basing) " GW design philosophy in a nutshell
It does trigher bolter discipline thankfully. It says 'including bolt weapon profile of relics such as blood song and lions wrath'. So we should be pretty safe.
Also with the lord on bike (until he gets mothballed) you could shoot with relic and use daemon shells on the bike's combi bolter. Very habdy for finishing off a character a turn.
Unfortunately vipers bite doesnt have any bolt weapon profile, so no bolter discipline.
However, an AL headhunter lord on bike with vipers bite can snipe characters with the vipers bite and use daemon shells with the bikes twin boltguns.
It says in the bolter discipline rules that relic weapons that replace bolt profile weapons also count for purposes of bolter discipline.
