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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/10/13 21:28:25
Subject: Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition]
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Enigmatic Chaos Sorcerer
The dark hollows of Kentucky
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Not Online!!! wrote:Gadzilla666 wrote: Bharring wrote:Wouldn't making Chosen troops do a better job of allowing pure-VOTL Legions, Legions who've recruited since, and renegades all in one book?
Why not make legion csm take votlw again? Give them +1 attack, let them have a ccw in addition to a bolter or special weapon, a +1 to leadership, and maybe more weapon options. Of course one additional wound would be too much to ask from gw.
Why not instead getting a propper dex 2.0 like marines?
Heck wouldn't even need the supplements, just finally traits and other things working propperly and not just relegating us to dex alphaslaaneshobliterterminator....
Well yes that would be nice. But gw can make more money by selling multiple supplements. So that's what we'll get.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/10/14 13:16:55
Subject: Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition]
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Huge Hierodule
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CSM DPs are great, they’re just not as good as DG/CD DR DPs, TS two psychic power DPs, CD Skullreaver DPs, CD Loci, and Syll’Esske
But if they get a solid CSM Legion Trait (FH) or Relic (IE, FME, DFP), they have broad parity Automatically Appended Next Post: How about Cloak of Conquest on a BL DP?
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/10/14 13:17:42
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/10/14 13:19:38
Subject: Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition]
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The Dread Evil Lord Varlak
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lindsay40k wrote:CSM DPs are great, they’re just not as good as DG/CD DR DPs, TS two psychic power DPs, CD Skullreaver DPs, CD Loci, and Syll’Esske
But if they get a solid CSM Legion Trait (FH) or Relic (IE, FME, DFP), they have broad parity
Automatically Appended Next Post:
How about Cloak of Conquest on a BL DP?
if i throw Votwl and cacophony at any unit i get also a stellar above average result.
The issue is not that we have not things that can compete but rather that we need to use an comparatively abusrd ammount of ressources to do so.
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https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page
A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units."
Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?"
Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?"
GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!"
Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/10/14 13:25:03
Subject: Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition]
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Daemonic Dreadnought
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Eldenfirefly wrote:I always love your army lists. Techsoldaten. You are one of the posters that keep my hopes alive that CSM and black legion can still do something in the current encivronment. However, I do have to ask though. How do you even manage to keep your lascannon Havocs alive? Now Havocs are limited to 5 man. Any dedicated shooting would obliterate them. They are just 5 models with 1W each and no invul save.
Range. Put them on your table edge, shoot from 48". Most of your opponent's guns can't do that, just bring more than he does. Think about it this way: 40k is a game of 5 turns. If you can shoot unopposed for 2 turns, that's 3/5ths of the game. When you take out a big chunk of his army each of those turns, you have an overwhelming advantage.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/10/14 13:25:34
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/10/14 13:25:19
Subject: Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition]
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Huge Hierodule
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Not Online!!! wrote: lindsay40k wrote:CSM DPs are great, they’re just not as good as DG/CD DR DPs, TS two psychic power DPs, CD Skullreaver DPs, CD Loci, and Syll’Esske
But if they get a solid CSM Legion Trait (FH) or Relic (IE, FME, DFP), they have broad parity
Automatically Appended Next Post:
How about Cloak of Conquest on a BL DP?
if i throw Votwl and cacophony at any unit i get also a stellar above average result.
The issue is not that we have not things that can compete but rather that we need to use an comparatively abusrd ammount of ressources to do so.
I mean, a CD Khorne DP is quite subpar, but with a Skullreaver, it’s great
Giving a 180pt character a Relic, or being a given Chapter, isn’t really much
I’d agree that most of our units require a lot of input to excel, but a DP with a one-off perma upgrade is a pretty self-reliant beatstick
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/10/14 13:31:10
Subject: Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition]
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The Dread Evil Lord Varlak
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lindsay40k wrote:Not Online!!! wrote: lindsay40k wrote:CSM DPs are great, they’re just not as good as DG/CD DR DPs, TS two psychic power DPs, CD Skullreaver DPs, CD Loci, and Syll’Esske
But if they get a solid CSM Legion Trait (FH) or Relic (IE, FME, DFP), they have broad parity
Automatically Appended Next Post:
How about Cloak of Conquest on a BL DP?
if i throw Votwl and cacophony at any unit i get also a stellar above average result.
The issue is not that we have not things that can compete but rather that we need to use an comparatively abusrd ammount of ressources to do so.
I mean, a CD Khorne DP is quite subpar, but with a Skullreaver, it’s great
Giving a 180pt character a Relic, or being a given Chapter, isn’t really much
I’d agree that most of our units require a lot of input to excel, but a DP with a one-off perma upgrade is a pretty self-reliant beatstick
Aye, it's about the only somewhat selfreliant beatstick in the list. Yet his brothers in other lists do that also better.
Not to say he isn't good but if you take soup in consideration you see that he isn't as good comparatively.
Hence my comment on dex CSM beeing dex alphaslaaneshobliterterminator, because that is in essence what shows up competitively.
And whilest i absolutely love to make gimmick lists or think outside the box there are just the facts that people smarter / better then me have figured out what works best more often.
And i can draw my conclusion from that.
I mean the only Mark bound trait that seems to get used higher up in comp is purge in combination with obliterators or plasmatermites. And i kinda start to draw issue with that.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/10/14 13:32:04
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page
A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units."
Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?"
Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?"
GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!"
Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/10/14 15:44:41
Subject: Re:Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition]
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Ferocious Black Templar Castellan
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It's not like Smashcaptains don't take a bunch of resources though. They munch CPs and hog relics/warlord traits like mad. Of course a bog-standard Daemon Prince won't match a Slamguinius with 6 CPs worth of stratagems and relic.
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For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/10/14 18:33:44
Subject: Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition]
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Huge Hierodule
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On the general subject of DPs, someone was running numbers on Sword vs claws with Hateful Assault and it came up pretty level? Now, when you’re hacking away at 2W or 3W or 4W targets, that does swing a bit? Worth noting that, with Primaris and IH getting buffed, there’s an environment with a lot more things to hit that get up again from a third of 2W attacks. Automatically Appended Next Post: Also pretty hand in a mirror match with Blight Lords aplenty
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/10/14 18:34:37
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/10/15 10:34:04
Subject: Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition]
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Pulsating Possessed Chaos Marine
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lindsay40k wrote:On the general subject of DPs, someone was running numbers on Sword vs claws with Hateful Assault and it came up pretty level? Now, when you’re hacking away at 2W or 3W or 4W targets, that does swing a bit? Worth noting that, with Primaris and IH getting buffed, there’s an environment with a lot more things to hit that get up again from a third of 2W attacks.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also pretty hand in a mirror match with Blight Lords aplenty
Still think axe is the better armour choice and talons for everything else. Sword just feels like it's trapped in the middle and not particularly good at either. For example axe kills more primaris than sword (2.7 vs 2.1 from 5 swings) and does more wounds on t7 3+ chasis (6.4 vs 4.9), claws are flat out better vs. any 1 or 2w models even with 6+++.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/10/15 18:47:28
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/10/15 17:03:50
Subject: Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition]
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Contagious Dreadnought of Nurgle
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yes but that -1 to hit can be an heavy toll vs some of armies, dont understimate it, anyway yes i would go for axe too.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/10/15 17:26:11
3rd place league tournament
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/10/15 21:09:21
Subject: Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition]
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Regular Dakkanaut
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Always have the axe relic. Best mine DP ever did was survive a Blood angel smashcaptain with 1W left and then returned something like 23W not calculating any MW!!
A DP with intoxicating Elixir is a solid choice as well that I gladly pay cp for.
Trying too build a more shooty list and thinking of havocs with ML for 48” and two profiles. But always see people taking them with either lascannon or reaper chaincannon.
Any reason why this is? Am I missing something? I do know how good RC is but short range and lascannons are really good vs any armor but not hoards.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/10/15 21:21:43
Subject: Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition]
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Combat Jumping Rasyat
East of England
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Oh man, RCCs are the bomb. Disembarking havocs have a threat range of around 34" with them, which is normally enough to get a good job done. Yes they'll probably be stood in the middle of the board afterwards, but frankly your opponent is gonna make sure they're dead straight away anyway.
They have that wonderful virtue of being AT through weight of fire. That really is the best kind of AT in the current IH-dominated meta.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/10/15 21:47:24
Subject: Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition]
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The Dread Evil Lord Varlak
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Tazberry wrote:Always have the axe relic. Best mine DP ever did was survive a Blood angel smashcaptain with 1W left and then returned something like 23W not calculating any MW!!
A DP with intoxicating Elixir is a solid choice as well that I gladly pay cp for.
Trying too build a more shooty list and thinking of havocs with ML for 48” and two profiles. But always see people taking them with either lascannon or reaper chaincannon.
Any reason why this is? Am I missing something? I do know how good RC is but short range and lascannons are really good vs any armor but not hoards.
Rcc is s 5, add VotLW into the equation and you get alot better results.
Also missile launchers pay for versatility, however rarely can use it effectively especially if we consider average shots on infantry.
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https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page
A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units."
Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?"
Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?"
GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!"
Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/10/15 22:03:28
Subject: Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition]
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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Havocs are a trap if you go expensive weapons. Just buy all Autocannons and they suddenly make a LOT of sense.
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CaptainStabby wrote:If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote:BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote:Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote:ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/10/16 07:24:22
Subject: Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition]
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The Dread Evil Lord Varlak
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Slayer-Fan123 wrote:Havocs are a trap if you go expensive weapons. Just buy all Autocannons and they suddenly make a LOT of sense.
Autocannons are allways the answer though
Especially for Chaos.
However i started valueing the missile launcher quite a bit in min csm squads.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/10/16 07:25:11
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page
A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units."
Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?"
Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?"
GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!"
Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/10/16 09:16:23
Subject: Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition]
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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Not Online!!! wrote:Slayer-Fan123 wrote:Havocs are a trap if you go expensive weapons. Just buy all Autocannons and they suddenly make a LOT of sense.
Autocannons are allways the answer though
Especially for Chaos.
However i started valueing the missile launcher quite a bit in min csm squads.
You might as well just buy the Chaincannon at that point. A single shot makes the ML terrible for AT, and the Chaincannon probably isn't that far off while providing chaff clearing, which is definitely a need.
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CaptainStabby wrote:If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote:BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote:Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote:ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/10/16 11:02:28
Subject: Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition]
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Pulsating Possessed Chaos Marine
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Slayer-Fan123 wrote:Not Online!!! wrote:Slayer-Fan123 wrote:Havocs are a trap if you go expensive weapons. Just buy all Autocannons and they suddenly make a LOT of sense.
Autocannons are allways the answer though
Especially for Chaos.
However i started valueing the missile launcher quite a bit in min csm squads.
You might as well just buy the Chaincannon at that point. A single shot makes the ML terrible for AT, and the Chaincannon probably isn't that far off while providing chaff clearing, which is definitely a need.
For 10 extra points a chain cannon can do everything Autocannons can do but a lot better. Kill more tanks, primaris, chaff and knights.
The only issue is the range but we have lots of ways round that: warptime, rhinos, assault drills, LOS blocking terrain, forward operatives stratergem etc etc.
They might not be always useful t1 but from then on they will at least make their points back if you protect them well.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/10/16 15:21:47
Subject: Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition]
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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small_gods wrote:Slayer-Fan123 wrote:Not Online!!! wrote:Slayer-Fan123 wrote:Havocs are a trap if you go expensive weapons. Just buy all Autocannons and they suddenly make a LOT of sense.
Autocannons are allways the answer though
Especially for Chaos.
However i started valueing the missile launcher quite a bit in min csm squads.
You might as well just buy the Chaincannon at that point. A single shot makes the ML terrible for AT, and the Chaincannon probably isn't that far off while providing chaff clearing, which is definitely a need.
For 10 extra points a chain cannon can do everything Autocannons can do but a lot better. Kill more tanks, primaris, chaff and knights.
The only issue is the range but we have lots of ways round that: warptime, rhinos, assault drills, LOS blocking terrain, forward operatives stratergem etc etc.
They might not be always useful t1 but from then on they will at least make their points back if you protect them well.
It depends the target. Keep in mind that we are spending a total of 20 points each on these weapons. That means we have:
24" S5 AP-1 D1 Heavy 8
48" S7 AP-1 D2 Heavy 4
48" S8 AP-2 DD6 Heavy 1 or S4 AP- Heavy D6
Clearly, the ML is a cut below everything else, offering little anti-horde even compared to Autocannons, and the single shot not mattering a lot.
Then we think about opportunity cost. For units only toting around a single Heavy Weapon, you might go more expensive with the Chaincannon. For a unit that's going to be buying a lot, like Havocs in our example, there's merit already to the Autocannon without making them a terribly big target.
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CaptainStabby wrote:If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote:BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote:Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote:ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/10/16 17:05:21
Subject: Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition]
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Combat Jumping Rasyat
East of England
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Votlw and cacophony are missing from your analysis... together they turn chain havocs into absolute top tier AT and chaff clearers. They can do it all. Automatically Appended Next Post: They're one of the best answers to IH castles, for example. They lay down painnnn. What other 150pt unit, when supported, can regularly do 15 damage to a castled IH executioner, for example? I cant think of another in the game. Autocannons don't even touch the sides.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/10/16 17:08:23
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/10/16 17:11:40
Subject: Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition]
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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grouchoben wrote:Votlw and cacophony are missing from your analysis... together they turn chain havocs into absolute top tier AT and chaff clearers. They can do it all.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
They're one of the best answers to IH castles, for example. They lay down painnnn. What other 150pt unit, when supported, can regularly do 15 damage to a castled IH executioner, for example? I cant think of another in the game. Autocannons don't even touch the sides.
Strats only apply to one unit ever at a time, and you might as well math out a full Autocannon squad doing the same thing with their 16 shots + the bonus to wound.
Also that 150 point unit is 30 points per wound. That's the definition of not durable.
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CaptainStabby wrote:If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote:BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote:Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote:ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/10/16 18:26:38
Subject: Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition]
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Combat Jumping Rasyat
East of England
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Who cares? Havocs are born to die. The trick is getting them to shoot for one turn before that happens. After that one unit has single-handedly wrecked an IH Executioner with its buffs up, it can retire to the warp in peace. That's my point, there are no other units that I know of (certainly not in that price backet) that can do that. After they shoot, they're dead. Automatically Appended Next Post: Your autocannons do 3.78 damage, by the way, with the same buffs up. Automatically Appended Next Post: The key here is that, aside from range, autocannons are statistically identical to chain cannons in S, AP and D against an IH Executioner, except they have 1/4 of the RoF.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/10/16 18:29:35
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/10/16 19:53:51
Subject: Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition]
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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grouchoben wrote:Who cares? Havocs are born to die. The trick is getting them to shoot for one turn before that happens. After that one unit has single-handedly wrecked an IH Executioner with its buffs up, it can retire to the warp in peace. That's my point, there are no other units that I know of (certainly not in that price backet) that can do that. After they shoot, they're dead.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Your autocannons do 3.78 damage, by the way, with the same buffs up.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
The key here is that, aside from range, autocannons are statistically identical to chain cannons in S, AP and D against an IH Executioner, except they have 1/4 of the RoF.
150 points is still a lot in case you forgot how the grand scheme of a CSM would work.
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CaptainStabby wrote:If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote:BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote:Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote:ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/10/16 22:10:22
Subject: Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition]
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Pulsating Possessed Chaos Marine
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Slayer-Fan123 wrote: small_gods wrote:Slayer-Fan123 wrote:Not Online!!! wrote:Slayer-Fan123 wrote:Havocs are a trap if you go expensive weapons. Just buy all Autocannons and they suddenly make a LOT of sense.
Autocannons are allways the answer though
Especially for Chaos.
However i started valueing the missile launcher quite a bit in min csm squads.
You might as well just buy the Chaincannon at that point. A single shot makes the ML terrible for AT, and the Chaincannon probably isn't that far off while providing chaff clearing, which is definitely a need.
For 10 extra points a chain cannon can do everything Autocannons can do but a lot better. Kill more tanks, primaris, chaff and knights.
The only issue is the range but we have lots of ways round that: warptime, rhinos, assault drills, LOS blocking terrain, forward operatives stratergem etc etc.
They might not be always useful t1 but from then on they will at least make their points back if you protect them well.
It depends the target. Keep in mind that we are spending a total of 20 points each on these weapons. That means we have:
24" S5 AP-1 D1 Heavy 8
48" S7 AP-1 D2 Heavy 4
48" S8 AP-2 DD6 Heavy 1 or S4 AP- Heavy D6
Clearly, the ML is a cut below everything else, offering little anti-horde even compared to Autocannons, and the single shot not mattering a lot.
Then we think about opportunity cost. For units only toting around a single Heavy Weapon, you might go more expensive with the Chaincannon. For a unit that's going to be buying a lot, like Havocs in our example, there's merit already to the Autocannon without making them a terribly big target.
Autocannon is heavy 2. It's really not a match for RCC vs any target. It's only advantage is range and 40 points less per unit. Only lascannons or RCC make sense to me.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/10/16 22:40:39
Subject: Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition]
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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small_gods wrote:Slayer-Fan123 wrote: small_gods wrote:Slayer-Fan123 wrote:Not Online!!! wrote:Slayer-Fan123 wrote:Havocs are a trap if you go expensive weapons. Just buy all Autocannons and they suddenly make a LOT of sense.
Autocannons are allways the answer though
Especially for Chaos.
However i started valueing the missile launcher quite a bit in min csm squads.
You might as well just buy the Chaincannon at that point. A single shot makes the ML terrible for AT, and the Chaincannon probably isn't that far off while providing chaff clearing, which is definitely a need.
For 10 extra points a chain cannon can do everything Autocannons can do but a lot better. Kill more tanks, primaris, chaff and knights.
The only issue is the range but we have lots of ways round that: warptime, rhinos, assault drills, LOS blocking terrain, forward operatives stratergem etc etc.
They might not be always useful t1 but from then on they will at least make their points back if you protect them well.
It depends the target. Keep in mind that we are spending a total of 20 points each on these weapons. That means we have:
24" S5 AP-1 D1 Heavy 8
48" S7 AP-1 D2 Heavy 4
48" S8 AP-2 DD6 Heavy 1 or S4 AP- Heavy D6
Clearly, the ML is a cut below everything else, offering little anti-horde even compared to Autocannons, and the single shot not mattering a lot.
Then we think about opportunity cost. For units only toting around a single Heavy Weapon, you might go more expensive with the Chaincannon. For a unit that's going to be buying a lot, like Havocs in our example, there's merit already to the Autocannon without making them a terribly big target.
Autocannon is heavy 2. It's really not a match for RCC vs any target. It's only advantage is range and 40 points less per unit. Only lascannons or RCC make sense to me.
You're looking at it wrong. If all units cost the same because you're CAAC and you're doing Power Level, sure your have a point. With points, you're looking at:
105 points for 8 S7 AP-1 D2 shots
145 points for 4 S9 AP-3 DD6 shots
145 points for 32 S5 AP-1 D1 shots
Clearly there is a good advantage to the large number of shots from the last weapon, but it is 150 points for the one shot at glory.
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CaptainStabby wrote:If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote:BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote:Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote:ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/10/16 23:04:13
Subject: Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition]
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Pulsating Possessed Chaos Marine
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Slayer-Fan123 wrote: small_gods wrote:Slayer-Fan123 wrote: small_gods wrote:Slayer-Fan123 wrote:Not Online!!! wrote:Slayer-Fan123 wrote:Havocs are a trap if you go expensive weapons. Just buy all Autocannons and they suddenly make a LOT of sense.
Autocannons are allways the answer though
Especially for Chaos.
However i started valueing the missile launcher quite a bit in min csm squads.
You might as well just buy the Chaincannon at that point. A single shot makes the ML terrible for AT, and the Chaincannon probably isn't that far off while providing chaff clearing, which is definitely a need.
For 10 extra points a chain cannon can do everything Autocannons can do but a lot better. Kill more tanks, primaris, chaff and knights.
The only issue is the range but we have lots of ways round that: warptime, rhinos, assault drills, LOS blocking terrain, forward operatives stratergem etc etc.
They might not be always useful t1 but from then on they will at least make their points back if you protect them well.
It depends the target. Keep in mind that we are spending a total of 20 points each on these weapons. That means we have:
24" S5 AP-1 D1 Heavy 8
48" S7 AP-1 D2 Heavy 4
48" S8 AP-2 DD6 Heavy 1 or S4 AP- Heavy D6
Clearly, the ML is a cut below everything else, offering little anti-horde even compared to Autocannons, and the single shot not mattering a lot.
Then we think about opportunity cost. For units only toting around a single Heavy Weapon, you might go more expensive with the Chaincannon. For a unit that's going to be buying a lot, like Havocs in our example, there's merit already to the Autocannon without making them a terribly big target.
Autocannon is heavy 2. It's really not a match for RCC vs any target. It's only advantage is range and 40 points less per unit. Only lascannons or RCC make sense to me.
You're looking at it wrong. If all units cost the same because you're CAAC and you're doing Power Level, sure your have a point. With points, you're looking at:
105 points for 8 S7 AP-1 D2 shots
145 points for 4 S9 AP-3 DD6 shots
145 points for 32 S5 AP-1 D1 shots
Clearly there is a good advantage to the large number of shots from the last weapon, but it is 150 points for the one shot at glory.
I don't understand what you're driving at? They're all as easy to kill as each other.
If you mean points per wound.
Autocannon is 27 points per wound (ppw) vs primaris, RCC is 19 ppw.
AC is 27 ppw vs ork boyz, RCC is 9.6.
AC is 35 ppw vs rhino, RCC is 38 ppw.
AC is 54 ppw vs knight, RCC is 39 ppw.
Then if you take into accout VotLW ans EC there's no comparison.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/10/16 23:28:23
Subject: Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition]
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Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle
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Range helps you live.
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Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/10/17 07:50:49
Subject: Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition]
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Combat Jumping Rasyat
East of England
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The Reaper Havoc is one of the best damage units in the game. AC Havocs aren't. You have to build around it, yes, and keep it safe, and expect its immediate death. BUT one squad of havocs with buffs can kill 10 IH Intercessors, almost one-bang an IH Executioner, drop an IH Stormhawk, put 18 damage on a knight, you name it, they do work against it. AC with the same buffs kills 5 IH Intys, does 3.78 to the Executioner, 6.9 against the Stormhawk, and 9 against the knight. You're trading 40pts for 50-75% less killing power. Disembarking from a vehicle(which is the what they like to be doing), they have a threat range of 34", and they can hurt any unit in the game. In all but the weirdest of deployments they can find and humiliate a viable target, even if its not your number 1 choice. Automatically Appended Next Post: PS One glory, not one shot. They are also one of the most reliable damagers in the game, due to their buffs, rerolls, ability to ignore cover and un-nerfable damage (High RoF D1 is currently the best in the meta imo.) It's just a matter of what we'll be facing for the foreseeable, that's all. IH Damage reduction is insane, meta-warping, silly. And Chain Havocs give zero gaks about it.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/10/17 07:55:34
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/10/17 10:26:54
Subject: Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition]
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Pulsating Possessed Chaos Marine
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grouchoben wrote:The Reaper Havoc is one of the best damage units in the game. AC Havocs aren't. You have to build around it, yes, and keep it safe, and expect its immediate death. BUT one squad of havocs with buffs can kill 10 IH Intercessors, almost one-bang an IH Executioner, drop an IH Stormhawk, put 18 damage on a knight, you name it, they do work against it.
AC with the same buffs kills 5 IH Intys, does 3.78 to the Executioner, 6.9 against the Stormhawk, and 9 against the knight. You're trading 40pts for 50-75% less killing power.
Disembarking from a vehicle(which is the what they like to be doing), they have a threat range of 34", and they can hurt any unit in the game. In all but the weirdest of deployments they can find and humiliate a viable target, even if its not your number 1 choice.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
PS One glory, not one shot. They are also one of the most reliable damagers in the game, due to their buffs, rerolls, ability to ignore cover and un-nerfable damage (High RoF D1 is currently the best in the meta imo.) It's just a matter of what we'll be facing for the foreseeable, that's all. IH Damage reduction is insane, meta-warping, silly. And Chain Havocs give zero gaks about it.
Exactly there is no list you could face that having some RCC havocks won't be efficient against. I still take one squad of lascannon one of RCC, but as you said with iron hands being so dominant at the moment you could easily get value out of 2/3 squads of pure RCC havocks.
What are people's thoughts on how to equip the aspiring champion? I switch between combi plas and combi bolter/chainsword.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/10/17 11:15:04
Subject: Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition]
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The Dread Evil Lord Varlak
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Chainaxe, chainsword, Berserker babysitter
Anything else the Lord does better imo or the warpsmith even.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/10/17 11:15:27
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page
A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units."
Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?"
Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?"
GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!"
Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/10/17 17:08:02
Subject: Re:Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition]
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Regular Dakkanaut
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Ok let's say I buy into the reaper chain cannons havoks... how do you get them into range without dying?
A rhino means they have to survive 2 turns of shooting in it (seems unlikely) but a drill adds a lot to thier cost...
I'm changing up my list currently and am having 3 oblits, so votlw and endless will be used on them, are the RCC havoks still worth running?
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