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 grouchoben wrote:
CSM would go extinct if Chosen were in the troop slot. Maybe that's a good thing.

It would do more to differentiate the army rather than just being "Spiky Marines who lose stuff".


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Bharring wrote:
Wouldn't making Chosen troops do a better job of allowing pure-VOTL Legions, Legions who've recruited since, and renegades all in one book?

ideally, Renegades could just be handled in the base Loyalist Scum codex with a page dedicated on how to switch around your Keywords. They would lose the main special units their Chapter gets (so no Khan on bike or Death Company) and then get a few different units, which I'm thinking Possessed and Spawn, both of which can represent either different levels of mutation or corruption. I hadn't decided a third unit though. I was originally thinking Warp Talons but that would be boring.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 grouchoben wrote:
CSM would go extinct if Chosen were in the troop slot. Maybe that's a good thing.

It would do more to differentiate the army rather than just being "Spiky Marines who lose stuff".


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Bharring wrote:
Wouldn't making Chosen troops do a better job of allowing pure-VOTL Legions, Legions who've recruited since, and renegades all in one book?

ideally, Renegades could just be handled in the base Loyalist Scum codex with a page dedicated on how to switch around your Keywords. They would lose the main special units their Chapter gets (so no Khan on bike or Death Company) and then get a few different units, which I'm thinking Possessed and Spawn, both of which can represent either different levels of mutation or corruption. I hadn't decided a third unit though. I was originally thinking Warp Talons but that would be boring.

Couldn't do it without Sorcerers.
Would need Marks and Gifts.
Would need Spawn and probably DP.
Probably want Possessed, Warp Talons
Should have Mutas and Oblits
Should have more chaosy relics, CTs, Warlord Traits and Stratagems
Could use some form of cultist, now that they're not Loyalists anymore
Should be less restricted by Codex Astartes, so Marine squads in larger sizes and double specials might be a thing

Granted, running Loyalist counts-as works for some Renegades. And the CSM book does unreasonably restrict other options (especially now that CSM lost their Devastators with the new Havok rules). But that's a lot of material to reprint in the Loyalist book just to expel renegades from the CSM book.

Bharring wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 grouchoben wrote:
CSM would go extinct if Chosen were in the troop slot. Maybe that's a good thing.

It would do more to differentiate the army rather than just being "Spiky Marines who lose stuff".


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Bharring wrote:
Wouldn't making Chosen troops do a better job of allowing pure-VOTL Legions, Legions who've recruited since, and renegades all in one book?

ideally, Renegades could just be handled in the base Loyalist Scum codex with a page dedicated on how to switch around your Keywords. They would lose the main special units their Chapter gets (so no Khan on bike or Death Company) and then get a few different units, which I'm thinking Possessed and Spawn, both of which can represent either different levels of mutation or corruption. I hadn't decided a third unit though. I was originally thinking Warp Talons but that would be boring.

Couldn't do it without Sorcerers.
Would need Marks and Gifts.
Would need Spawn and probably DP.
Probably want Possessed, Warp Talons
Should have Mutas and Oblits
Should have more chaosy relics, CTs, Warlord Traits and Stratagems
Could use some form of cultist, now that they're not Loyalists anymore
Should be less restricted by Codex Astartes, so Marine squads in larger sizes and double specials might be a thing

Granted, running Loyalist counts-as works for some Renegades. And the CSM book does unreasonably restrict other options (especially now that CSM lost their Devastators with the new Havok rules). But that's a lot of material to reprint in the Loyalist book just to expel renegades from the CSM book.

Sorcerers are Librarians. There is functionally no difference and to try and deny that is pure silliness.
Mutilators and Obliterators need a singular condensed profile, and it isn't one Renegades need as they'll have Centurion access (which also need a condensed profile).
I've said before everyone only gets 3 unique Relics, Strats, and Warlord traits. Renegades would be treated the same so to not take up a lot of space.
Marks are handled in the keyword section as I've already said.
I've already gone over why the Tactical Marine profile doesn't work and a rework of that is what they would get access to.

In fact, most of what you describe reminds of the Tyrant list for the Badab War but with access to Chaos stuff. That's a whole different ballgame but one that isn't terribly needed.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Bharring wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 grouchoben wrote:
CSM would go extinct if Chosen were in the troop slot. Maybe that's a good thing.

It would do more to differentiate the army rather than just being "Spiky Marines who lose stuff".


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Bharring wrote:
Wouldn't making Chosen troops do a better job of allowing pure-VOTL Legions, Legions who've recruited since, and renegades all in one book?

ideally, Renegades could just be handled in the base Loyalist Scum codex with a page dedicated on how to switch around your Keywords. They would lose the main special units their Chapter gets (so no Khan on bike or Death Company) and then get a few different units, which I'm thinking Possessed and Spawn, both of which can represent either different levels of mutation or corruption. I hadn't decided a third unit though. I was originally thinking Warp Talons but that would be boring.

Couldn't do it without Sorcerers.
Would need Marks and Gifts.
Would need Spawn and probably DP.
Probably want Possessed, Warp Talons
Should have Mutas and Oblits
Should have more chaosy relics, CTs, Warlord Traits and Stratagems
Could use some form of cultist, now that they're not Loyalists anymore
Should be less restricted by Codex Astartes, so Marine squads in larger sizes and double specials might be a thing

Granted, running Loyalist counts-as works for some Renegades. And the CSM book does unreasonably restrict other options (especially now that CSM lost their Devastators with the new Havok rules). But that's a lot of material to reprint in the Loyalist book just to expel renegades from the CSM book.

Sorcerers are Librarians. There is functionally no difference and to try and deny that is pure silliness.

I don't recall any rules for Librarians casting Nurgle powers? I mean, you can counts-as here and just kinda wish-wash it away - much like how you can "counts as" your T'au as Imperial Guard or whatever. But there are rules specific to "Librarians" who've gone Chaos - and that's Sorcerer.

Mutilators and Obliterators need a singular condensed profile, and it isn't one Renegades need as they'll have Centurion access (which also need a condensed profile).

So more "You can just pretend they're renegades"? How is that different from "You can use ChainCannons as counts-as Plasma Guns"?

I've said before everyone only gets 3 unique Relics, Strats, and Warlord traits. Renegades would be treated the same so to not take up a lot of space.
Marks are handled in the keyword section as I've already said.
I've already gone over why the Tactical Marine profile doesn't work and a rework of that is what they would get access to.

In other words, it'll all work great with just a few changes, once you completely rewrite both books?

But if you're fully rewriting both books, since Renegades have more in common with other Traitors than Loyalists, why would you add more bloat to the Loyalist book instead of lest bloat to the Chaos book?

In fact, most of what you describe reminds of the Tyrant list for the Badab War but with access to Chaos stuff. That's a whole different ballgame but one that isn't terribly needed.

In other words, "Renegades can use the Loyalist book, because renegades that can't are a different list. There's no value in Renegades that have conspired with Chaos in any way, so we'll drop that - and anyone's army that played that way from the game."?

Bharring wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Bharring wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 grouchoben wrote:
CSM would go extinct if Chosen were in the troop slot. Maybe that's a good thing.

It would do more to differentiate the army rather than just being "Spiky Marines who lose stuff".


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Bharring wrote:
Wouldn't making Chosen troops do a better job of allowing pure-VOTL Legions, Legions who've recruited since, and renegades all in one book?

ideally, Renegades could just be handled in the base Loyalist Scum codex with a page dedicated on how to switch around your Keywords. They would lose the main special units their Chapter gets (so no Khan on bike or Death Company) and then get a few different units, which I'm thinking Possessed and Spawn, both of which can represent either different levels of mutation or corruption. I hadn't decided a third unit though. I was originally thinking Warp Talons but that would be boring.

Couldn't do it without Sorcerers.
Would need Marks and Gifts.
Would need Spawn and probably DP.
Probably want Possessed, Warp Talons
Should have Mutas and Oblits
Should have more chaosy relics, CTs, Warlord Traits and Stratagems
Could use some form of cultist, now that they're not Loyalists anymore
Should be less restricted by Codex Astartes, so Marine squads in larger sizes and double specials might be a thing

Granted, running Loyalist counts-as works for some Renegades. And the CSM book does unreasonably restrict other options (especially now that CSM lost their Devastators with the new Havok rules). But that's a lot of material to reprint in the Loyalist book just to expel renegades from the CSM book.

Sorcerers are Librarians. There is functionally no difference and to try and deny that is pure silliness.

I don't recall any rules for Librarians casting Nurgle powers? I mean, you can counts-as here and just kinda wish-wash it away - much like how you can "counts as" your T'au as Imperial Guard or whatever. But there are rules specific to "Librarians" who've gone Chaos - and that's Sorcerer.

Mutilators and Obliterators need a singular condensed profile, and it isn't one Renegades need as they'll have Centurion access (which also need a condensed profile).

So more "You can just pretend they're renegades"? How is that different from "You can use ChainCannons as counts-as Plasma Guns"?

I've said before everyone only gets 3 unique Relics, Strats, and Warlord traits. Renegades would be treated the same so to not take up a lot of space.
Marks are handled in the keyword section as I've already said.
I've already gone over why the Tactical Marine profile doesn't work and a rework of that is what they would get access to.

In other words, it'll all work great with just a few changes, once you completely rewrite both books?

But if you're fully rewriting both books, since Renegades have more in common with other Traitors than Loyalists, why would you add more bloat to the Loyalist book instead of lest bloat to the Chaos book?

In fact, most of what you describe reminds of the Tyrant list for the Badab War but with access to Chaos stuff. That's a whole different ballgame but one that isn't terribly needed.

In other words, "Renegades can use the Loyalist book, because renegades that can't are a different list. There's no value in Renegades that have conspired with Chaos in any way, so we'll drop that - and anyone's army that played that way from the game."?

1. Seeing as they're really just Renegades and not fully in a Legion warband committed to a God, I've got no issue not casting Nurgle Powers. Keywords can still let you be affected by rules of course but that's really all that's needed. It isn't like you were using THAT many powers from the Nurgle tree for your Purged and Red Corsairs; you're only trying to power yourself through the couple of good ones. Ergo there's no sympathy from me you don't get Miasma of Pestilence anymore.
2. Because Centurions and the -Ators fulfill the same roles? You don't NEED those -Ator profiles because Centurions are doing the same thing for all intents and purposes. Not like anyone would complain because Centurions are pretty cool again anyway.
3. It doesn't need a full rewrite. The base has some good stuff there and just needs some refining.
And no, Renegades would have more in common with Loyalist Scum than Legions in terms of organization and how they fight and what equipment they would have access to. Just because they hear voices in their head doesn't mean they're now fighting like Death Guard or 1000 Sons or Word Bearers.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Bharring wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Bharring wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 grouchoben wrote:
CSM would go extinct if Chosen were in the troop slot. Maybe that's a good thing.

It would do more to differentiate the army rather than just being "Spiky Marines who lose stuff".


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Bharring wrote:
Wouldn't making Chosen troops do a better job of allowing pure-VOTL Legions, Legions who've recruited since, and renegades all in one book?

ideally, Renegades could just be handled in the base Loyalist Scum codex with a page dedicated on how to switch around your Keywords. They would lose the main special units their Chapter gets (so no Khan on bike or Death Company) and then get a few different units, which I'm thinking Possessed and Spawn, both of which can represent either different levels of mutation or corruption. I hadn't decided a third unit though. I was originally thinking Warp Talons but that would be boring.

Couldn't do it without Sorcerers.
Would need Marks and Gifts.
Would need Spawn and probably DP.
Probably want Possessed, Warp Talons
Should have Mutas and Oblits
Should have more chaosy relics, CTs, Warlord Traits and Stratagems
Could use some form of cultist, now that they're not Loyalists anymore
Should be less restricted by Codex Astartes, so Marine squads in larger sizes and double specials might be a thing

Granted, running Loyalist counts-as works for some Renegades. And the CSM book does unreasonably restrict other options (especially now that CSM lost their Devastators with the new Havok rules). But that's a lot of material to reprint in the Loyalist book just to expel renegades from the CSM book.

Sorcerers are Librarians. There is functionally no difference and to try and deny that is pure silliness.

I don't recall any rules for Librarians casting Nurgle powers? I mean, you can counts-as here and just kinda wish-wash it away - much like how you can "counts as" your T'au as Imperial Guard or whatever. But there are rules specific to "Librarians" who've gone Chaos - and that's Sorcerer.

Mutilators and Obliterators need a singular condensed profile, and it isn't one Renegades need as they'll have Centurion access (which also need a condensed profile).

So more "You can just pretend they're renegades"? How is that different from "You can use ChainCannons as counts-as Plasma Guns"?

I've said before everyone only gets 3 unique Relics, Strats, and Warlord traits. Renegades would be treated the same so to not take up a lot of space.
Marks are handled in the keyword section as I've already said.
I've already gone over why the Tactical Marine profile doesn't work and a rework of that is what they would get access to.

In other words, it'll all work great with just a few changes, once you completely rewrite both books?

But if you're fully rewriting both books, since Renegades have more in common with other Traitors than Loyalists, why would you add more bloat to the Loyalist book instead of lest bloat to the Chaos book?

In fact, most of what you describe reminds of the Tyrant list for the Badab War but with access to Chaos stuff. That's a whole different ballgame but one that isn't terribly needed.

In other words, "Renegades can use the Loyalist book, because renegades that can't are a different list. There's no value in Renegades that have conspired with Chaos in any way, so we'll drop that - and anyone's army that played that way from the game."?

1. Seeing as they're really just Renegades and not fully in a Legion warband committed to a God, I've got no issue not casting Nurgle Powers. Keywords can still let you be affected by rules of course but that's really all that's needed.

It's fine that you have no issue with someone's Nurgle sorcerer not using Nurgle powers. But that's very different from having issue with someone's Nurgle sorcerer using Nurgle powers. The first is accepting an alternate way someone might want to play. The second is rejecting the primary way, the rules-supported way, the fluffy way, the most obvious way that someone would play it. The first is fine, but you're doing the second, which is not.

It isn't like you were using THAT many powers from the Nurgle tree for your Purged and Red Corsairs; you're only trying to power yourself through the couple of good ones. Ergo there's no sympathy from me you don't get Miasma of Pestilence anymore.

So your argument is that anyone doing something is doing it for powergaming reasons, and therefore it should be disallowed, because powergaming reasons aren't valid. That's remarkably reductive, insulting, simplistic, and meaningless, all at the same time.

2. Because Centurions and the -Ators fulfill the same roles? You don't NEED those -Ator profiles because Centurions are doing the same thing for all intents and purposes. Not like anyone would complain because Centurions are pretty cool again anyway.

So non-Chosen marines must be dropped from the CSM codex because they don't represent Legion marines well enough, but a Cent and a -Ator is identical?

3. It doesn't need a full rewrite. The base has some good stuff there and just needs some refining.

If you're changing several entries, adding a couple entries, adding a few CTs, reworking all Traits, changing all Powers, redoing all the stratagems, and soforth, how is that not a rewrite?

And no, Renegades would have more in common with Loyalist Scum than Legions in terms of organization and how they fight and what equipment they would have access to. Just because they hear voices in their head doesn't mean they're now fighting like Death Guard or 1000 Sons or Word Bearers.

"Just because they hear voices in their head" - in other words, working with/for Chaos and abandonment of IoM - *DOES* mean, among other things:
-No requirement to respect the Chapter org chart
-May now become demons
-May now work with demons
-Librarians may now *openly* serve and channel Nurgle/Tzeench/Slanesh
-Posessed vehicles/wargear are now viable
-Demon Engines are now viable
-May now use non-codex-compliant loadouts (double Plas or 20-man squads, for instance)
-May now use non-codex-compliant forces (Cultists, for instance)
-Can now openly serve the Gods (marks)
-Can now openly revel in dark gifts (mutations)

As for "fighting like Death Guard or 1000 Sons", aside from the above list, Death Guard are a lot more like Loyalists than they are like 1000 Sons (and vice-versa). Death Guard and 1000 Sons are very different forces. Same comparisions could be made with Alpha Legion.

Scourged, purge, brazen and RC would all disagree with Slayer-Fan

I’m broadly sympathetic with the notion of Renegades having more in common with AA than they do with Legions, but that would mean the Renegades rules would only cover Chapters that went rogue recently enough to have not yet caught Obliterator-itis or had their armouries blessed by gifts from the Warmaster or had anyone hulk out into a Possessed, all of which sucks for Renegade collectors who’ve already got daemonic units (that one BB are obsessed with and Purge has brilliant synergy with), and it would instate Renegade Primaris, which GW’s inertia seems to be quite a way away from given the recent release wave of HA, and it would also sort of necessitate a major rebuilding of two Codexes that only just got new editions

Also, none of this is a tactical discussion. So what do we reckon, if I’m going to try a Tzeentch Daemonkin list should I get a Changeling to give a Soulforged Pack 6+++, and should I try a battalion of brimstones and summon the Pink Horrors to avoid them having to get shot or advance before they get to throw fireballs

6+++, sounds fun.
But, what daemonkin will you play? Possesed?
I'd imagine that these would profit decently from that.
Add a MoP in and a regular sorcerer.
What legion /trait i'd say go for AL, if anything that would atleast generate some needed durability.
Maybee consider a da, with the cultist formation for 1+ praying.

 techsoldaten wrote:

 DarklyDreaming wrote:
I never fought IH, but I have beaten NuMarines multiple times. The best counters for them are 2 kind of lists:

1. daemon engines lists, with many vehicls, like 4/5 Engines and 2 rhinos, the reason because invulnerables are the only thing that still works against them and all the attacks have multiple damage, having no screen, a first turn charge with warp time can hurt a lot and castles are somehow vulnerable to exploding vehicles. Ofc going first is pivotal.

2. Alpha legion infantry gunlines. With the itc style we can hide stuff avoiding a first turn tabling, playing infantry we can make the ubiquitous repulsors/executioners less effective with no vehicles to one shot.

The most important thing of all are Obliterators, facing big expensive units we are sure they will repay themselves, when they come down they eliminate all that threats them (they can kill 2 replusors with a bit of luck) and then is just easy win, since troop shooting can't kill them.

@techsoldaten tell us about your Black Legion gunline

I'll do you one better. There's 5 lists I've used in 10 games versus NuMarines. Here are 4 of them, I'll talk a little about why each one does or does not work.

Bloodletter Bomb - Does Not Work

Spoiler:

++ Battalion Detachment - Black Legion ++

+ HQ +

Chaos Lord: 2. Flames of Spite, 2x Chainsword, Mark of Khorne, Warlord

Dark Apostle: Mark of Slaanesh

Sorcerer with Jump Pack: Bolt pistol, Force sword, No Chaos Mark, Prescience, Warptime

+ Troops +

Chaos Cultists: Mark of Slaanesh
. 13x Chaos Cultist w/ Autogun
. Cultist Champion: Autogun

4x Chaos Cultists: Mark of Slaanesh
. 14x Chaos Cultist w/ Autogun
. Cultist Champion: Autogun

+ Elites +

Hellforged Contemptor Dreadnought: 2x Butcher cannon, Slaanesh

Hellforged Contemptor Dreadnought: 2x Butcher cannon, Slaanesh

Dark Disciples

+ Heavy Support +

Havocs: No Chaos Mark
. Aspiring Champion: Chainsword, Flamer
. 4x Havoc w/ lascannon: 4x Lascannon

Obliterators: Mark of Slaanesh, 3x Obliterator

++ Patrol Detachment (Khorne Daemons) ++

+ HQ +

Bloodmaster

+ Troops +

Bloodletters: 29x Bloodletter, Bloodreaper, Daemonic Icon, Instrument of Chaos

Bloodletters: 29x Bloodletter, Bloodreaper, Daemonic Icon, Instrument of Chaos

Tried this list against NuMarines several times. In one game, he wiped out most of my army before deep strikers arrived. In another game, he used Drop Pods to deny deep strike, neutralizing the Bloodletters and ensuring the Obliterators only had poor targets.

Black Legion Gunline - Works

Spoiler:

++ Battalion Detachment (Black Legion) ++

+ HQ +

Abaddon the Despoiler: Warlord

Daemon Prince with Wings: Diabolic Strength, Malefic talon, Wings
. Slaanesh

Sorcerer: Bolt pistol, Force sword, Mark of Tzeentch, Prescience, Warptime

+ Troops +

Chaos Cultists: No Chaos Mark
. 12x Chaos Cultist w/ Autogun
. Cultist Champion: Autogun

Chaos Cultists: No Chaos Mark
. 12x Chaos Cultist w/ Autogun
. Cultist Champion: Autogun

Chaos Space Marines: Mark of Slaanesh
. Aspiring Champion: Boltgun, Chainaxe
. 4x Marine w/ Boltgun
. Marine w/ heavy weapon: Lascannon

Chaos Space Marines: Mark of Slaanesh
. Aspiring Champion: Boltgun, Plasma pistol
. 4x Marine w/ Boltgun
. Marine w/ heavy weapon: Lascannon

Chaos Space Marines: Mark of Slaanesh
. Aspiring Champion: Boltgun, Plasma pistol
. 4x Marine w/ Boltgun
. Marine w/ heavy weapon: Lascannon

+ Elites +

Hellforged Contemptor Dreadnought: 2x Twin lascannon

Hellforged Contemptor Dreadnought: 2x Twin lascannon

Hellforged Contemptor Dreadnought: 2x Twin lascannon

+ Heavy Support +

Havocs: Mark of Slaanesh
. Aspiring Champion: Chainsword, Flamer
. 4x Havoc w/ lascannon: 4x Lascannon

Havocs: Mark of Slaanesh
. Aspiring Champion: Chainsword, Flamer
. 4x Havoc w/ lascannon: 4x Lascannon

Havocs: Mark of Slaanesh
. Aspiring Champion: Chainsword, Flamer
. 4x Havoc w/ lascannon: 4x Lascannon

This list works because it has 27 lascannons with rerolls to hit. It's the same gunline I have played most of 8th edition, but with more lascannons. Most of the army deploys on my table edge within Abaddon's reroll bubble. The Cultists screen everything else and Abaddon, the DP and the Sorcerer are 'beatsticks' to deal with anything that gets close.

It can put down Repulsors, Thunderfire Cannons, Infiltrators, etc immediately and outranges Blot Rifles, forcing Intercessors and other Marines to get in close to fight. In later turns, the lascannons snipe enemy units from a distance.


Black Legion Gunline - Scorpius - Works

Spoiler:

++ Spearhead Detachment (Black Legion) ++

+ HQ +

Sorcerer with Jump Pack: 2. Flames of Spite, Chainsword, Council of Traitors, Diabolic Strength, Force sword, Ghorisvex's Teeth, No Chaos Mark, Prescience

+ Heavy Support +

Hellforged Scorpius: Combi-bolter, Scorpius multi-launcher

Hellforged Scorpius: Combi-bolter, Scorpius multi-launcher

Hellforged Scorpius: Combi-bolter, Scorpius multi-launcher

++ Battalion Detachment (Black Legion) ++

+ HQ +

Abaddon the Despoiler: Warlord

Daemon Prince with Wings: Diabolic Strength, Malefic talon, Wings
. Slaanesh

+ Troops +

Chaos Space Marines: Mark of Slaanesh
. Aspiring Champion: Boltgun, Chainaxe
. 3x Marine w/ Boltgun
. Marine w/ heavy weapon: Lascannon

Chaos Space Marines: Mark of Slaanesh
. Aspiring Champion: Boltgun, Plasma pistol
. 3x Marine w/ Boltgun
. Marine w/ heavy weapon: Lascannon

Chaos Space Marines: Mark of Slaanesh
. Aspiring Champion: Boltgun, Plasma pistol
. 3x Marine w/ Boltgun
. Marine w/ heavy weapon: Lascannon

+ Heavy Support +

Havocs: Mark of Slaanesh
. Aspiring Champion: Chainsword, Flamer
. 4x Havoc w/ lascannon: 4x Lascannon

Havocs: Mark of Slaanesh
. Aspiring Champion: Chainsword, Flamer
. 4x Havoc w/ lascannon: 4x Lascannon

Havocs: Mark of Slaanesh
. Aspiring Champion: Chainsword, Flamer
. 4x Havoc w/ lascannon: 4x Lascannon

This list is a variant of the Black Legion gunline. It works because it has 18D3 multi-launcher shots each turn with indirect fire and rerolls from Abaddon.

There are enough lascannons to destroy a couple Repulsors turn one, but what really matters is the missiles. On average, the multilaunchers are doing enough damage to kill about 15 Primaris per turn. Since your opponent can't draw line of site to them, he has to march up the board a couple turns with nothing to shoot at.

Also, this list features a Chainsorcerer. Starting to understand why this guy matters, he's not what anyone expects from a Sorcerer. He's not the Warlord but gets Flames of Spite through Council of Traitors. No one expects any Sorcerer to go full close combat and dish tons of mortal wounds, which can really screw up an opponent's attack.

Daemon Primarchs - Playtesting, Seems to Work

Spoiler:

++ Supreme Command Detachment (Thousand Sons) ++

+ HQ +

Ahriman: Glamour of Tzeentch, Tzeentch's Firestorm, Warptime

Daemon Prince of Tzeentch: Gaze of Fate, Infernal Gaze, Malefic talon, Wings

Sorcerer on Disc of Tzeentch: Combi-bolter, Death Hex, Diabolic Strength, Force stave, Helm of the Third Eye

+ Elites +

Hellforged Sicaran: Combi-bolter, Heavy bolter, Tzeentch
. Lascannons: 2x Lascannon

+ Lord of War +

Magnus the Red: Bolt of Change, Doombolt, Infernal Gateway, Prescience, Warlord

++ Battalion Detachment (Nurgle Daemons) ++

+ HQ +

Poxbringer: Virulent Blessing

Poxbringer: Miasma of Pestilence

+ Troops +

Nurglings: 3x Nurgling Swarms

Nurglings: 3x Nurgling Swarms

Plaguebearers: Daemonic Icon, Instrument of Chaos, 21x Plaguebearer, Plagueridden

++ Super-Heavy Auxiliary Detachment (Death Guard) ++

+ Lord of War +

Mortarion: 1. Miasma of Pestilence, 4. Blades of Putrefaction, 6. Curse of the Leper

I've been playtesting this list and it seems to work. The reason it works is because Magnus and Mortarion can get into close combat before the Tactical Doctrine kicks in, putting your opponent off-balance and giving you opportunities to disrupt his forces.

In 2 games versus NuMarines, I've found the Sicaran gets ignored until at least one Primarch is dead. That's kind of a big deal, your opponent will have to deal with long-distance shooting while dealing with the Nurgle infantry.

I always love your army lists. Techsoldaten. You are one of the posters that keep my hopes alive that CSM and black legion can still do something in the current encivronment. However, I do have to ask though. How do you even manage to keep your lascannon Havocs alive? Now Havocs are limited to 5 man. Any dedicated shooting would obliterate them. They are just 5 models with 1W each and no invul save.

5 models are easy enough to hide and maybee he plays not on planet Bowling Ball and with decent enough terrain rules.

Also marines don't really have much decent los ignoring fire without soup so.

Thunderfire with strat and scorpius are both good.

 vaklor4 wrote:
So I played vs Iron Hands for the first time, and just got completely dabbed on, and he didnt even bring an overly cheesy list. What would be good counter units to iron hands gunline/vehicle heavy lists? I found that he was easily able to bring both anti infantry and anti armor in spades, so I dont think leaning heavy into one or the other would work. Would swapping to my demon army work better? Nurgle might stand a chance and khorne could blow a chunk in his army from a letter bomb.

Hmm, will try out a renegades and heretics battalion tommorow.
Mostly because chimera + 2 rogue psyker covens casting warpflux are 2d6 Mortals on a vehicle of your choice.

Back to the Chosen vs regular CSM debate:

What if regular CSM got their free chainswords back (so you don't lose the bolter)?



Or "Chosen" became a free upgrade for one unit if you've got a Chaos Lord/some other HQ so that they function like a retinue.

Like "Before deployment, for each Chaos Lord (or maybe any Infantry HQ) in a detachment, choose a unit of Chaos Space Marines from the same detachment. That unit gains the Chosen keyword."

Then the Chosen keyword could gain some buff for being near the HQ (like +1 attack, a LD buff, advance + shoot even if it's rapid fire/heavy, and/or advance + charge).


Or Chosen do just become troops, whether it's one squad per Chaos Lord or just blanket. It still sells CSM kits.

Sounds like wish listing. In any case, I think the problem with CSM currently lies in other areas.

1. We have few weapons that can hit units hiding out of line of sight behind a wall, or within a building. (need to go into forgeworld for that).

2. We have few if any snipers, so we can't do anything to characters hiding behind units which are in turn hiding out of line of sight.

3. We have no good transports except the Rhino and the LR. Unless we go forgeworld again.

4. Currently, SM chapter tactics and their new books are much stronger than even our codex 2.0 and Vigilus Ablaze combined.

5. Demon engines are kind of a trap. We are trying so hard to spend so many other points in support just to make our demon engines "normal" ie, shoot at +3, have a 4++ invul, etc when things like knights come with stock T8, 5++ 3+ BS and just needs 1 CP to become 4++.

6. Our CSM troops now loses by a lot to Primaris, and our cultists loses compared to guardsmen and primaris mow them down super easily anyway.

7. Our characters are expensive, yet can be sniped, and usually, if you want to say fighty, well a smash captain is as fighty as any demon prince and yet comes with a 3++ while most of our characters are lucky to even get 5++ unless we go tzeentch.

8. Our demon primarchs tend to be shot off the board turn 1 because any good list needs to be able to handle Knights army anyway.

The combination of all these means that our opponent can mess with our shooting and our characters, and yet in a dominantly shooty meta, our assault can't get into grips either because of bubblewraps, our own mediocre transports, and due to the sheer destructive firepower of shooting these days.

In short, it seems that we need to dig deep and pull out the cheesiest of the cheese in order for our lists to even have a viable chance. And if both sides have a good understanding of the current 40k environment and tactics, then we generally start off at an inherent disadvantage playing CSM. The most discouraging thing is that once I start to dig for tricks to power up my army list, I end up considering pulling stuff from deathguard, thousand sons, Chaos knights, demons. And after a while, my CSM forces keep getting cut more and more until my final army just has token CSM in it... Its like add one knight, wow, its great, so why not just go with 3... and now we have a chaos knight list instead of a CSM list. Add DG, then end up add even more DG until might as well go full DG. Same with demons, thousand sons. Its kinda sad that there is hardly anything worth keeping in a core CSM list once you start to consider souping in other factions like DG, TS, Demons, Chaos knights.

Eldenfirefly wrote:
Sounds like wish listing. In any case, I think the problem with CSM currently lies in other areas.

1. We have few weapons that can hit units hiding out of line of sight behind a wall, or within a building. (need to go into forgeworld for that).

2. We have few if any snipers, so we can't do anything to characters hiding behind units which are in turn hiding out of line of sight.

3. We have no good transports except the Rhino and the LR. Unless we go forgeworld again.

4. Currently, SM chapter tactics and their new books are much stronger than even our codex 2.0 and Vigilus Ablaze combined.

5. Demon engines are kind of a trap. We are trying so hard to spend so many other points in support just to make our demon engines "normal" ie, shoot at +3, have a 4++ invul, etc when things like knights come with stock T8, 5++ 3+ BS and just needs 1 CP to become 4++.

6. Our CSM troops now loses by a lot to Primaris, and our cultists loses compared to guardsmen and primaris mow them down super easily anyway.

7. Our characters are expensive, yet can be sniped, and usually, if you want to say fighty, well a smash captain is as fighty as any demon prince and yet comes with a 3++ while most of our characters are lucky to even get 5++ unless we go tzeentch.

8. Our demon primarchs tend to be shot off the board turn 1 because any good list needs to be able to handle Knights army anyway.

The combination of all these means that our opponent can mess with our shooting and our characters, and yet in a dominantly shooty meta, our assault can't get into grips either because of bubblewraps, our own mediocre transports, and due to the sheer destructive firepower of shooting these days.

In short, it seems that we need to dig deep and pull out the cheesiest of the cheese in order for our lists to even have a viable chance. And if both sides have a good understanding of the current 40k environment and tactics, then we generally start off at an inherent disadvantage playing CSM. The most discouraging thing is that once I start to dig for tricks to power up my army list, I end up considering pulling stuff from deathguard, thousand sons, Chaos knights, demons. And after a while, my CSM forces keep getting cut more and more until my final army just has token CSM in it... Its like add one knight, wow, its great, so why not just go with 3... and now we have a chaos knight list instead of a CSM list. Add DG, then end up add even more DG until might as well go full DG. Same with demons, thousand sons. Its kinda sad that there is hardly anything worth keeping in a core CSM list once you start to consider souping in other factions like DG, TS, Demons, Chaos knights.

A lot of this is very true, if it wasn't for endless Cacophony and FW dreads we'd be fairly screwed for taking on primaris lists.

I'm still taking CSM lists to tournaments (primarily because I don't want to take 100s of daemons to play 3 games a day). But I've had to spam deredeos and lord discordants. Then I choose between host raptorial warp talons and devestation battery oblits/havocs.

But we definately have a lot less viable ways to be competitive!

Codex creep, also supplements.
Ans honestly dex 2,0 was a cashgrab.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
As a sidenote, beyond los ignoring and dreads, fw doesn't really help.

Btw it seems that we once again are stuck in an older edition it seems, considering how marines and eldar shape up.

Daemon Princes have twice the wounds of a Smashcaptain and better T, as well as being a Psyker (unless you're like me and play Khorne :(). There's plenty of issues with Chaos without overdoing it and complaining about one of the most solid HQs in the game.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Daemon Princes have twice the wounds of a Smashcaptain and better T, as well as being a Psyker (unless you're like me and play Khorne :(). There's plenty of issues with Chaos without overdoing it and complaining about one of the most solid HQs in the game.

Apple and oranges. Besides, CSM DP don't have a 3++, deal way less damage than Smash Captains and have a much larger base.

TL,DR: CSM Daemon princes are trash. Only TS and Daemons ones get used (OK, sometimes Death Guard too).

Anyway, I apologise if I came across as negative. I am usually not like that. I visited the Iron Hands forums and well, some of them face a kind of backlash because when your army is perceived as stupidly op, nobody wants to play you.

And well, its a fun challenge to in a way to try and think of ways to keep playing CSM while still having some sort of viable army. Its not easy, and I am still cracking my head thinking about how.

I got a question, how many of you have tried out a deep striking squad of obliterators and how successful has it been? I did the math and the most point efficient is to deep strike in a terminator sorceror with 3 obliterators. Then you cast prescience and delightful agonies on the Oblits when you deep strike in, and then use let the galaxy burn, endless cacophony, and veterans of the long war. Its 4 CP and 2 psychics and around 500 points, but in return you get 36 shots from the oblits which are at reroll 1s to hit, 2+ base to hit and +1 to wound. And the Oblits then have 5++ FNP to withstand the counter attack that will come after that.

I got three Oblits painted up already. Haven't really used them full out like that yet.


BTW, here are some other solutions that I thought of and tried before but the issue is imperium has far too many answers against us these days.

1. mass psykers, including TS. Imperium spends very little to bring a Calidus assasin and he shuts down psychic in a big way.

2. Melee .. between all the bubble wrap, and the sheer destructive power of shooting these days. This is a challenge these days. And well, like I said earlier, our transport options are limited.

3. Deep strike shenenigans ... again foiled by bubble wrap.

4. Outshoot them... I have tried before, with varied results. Its a shooting meta these days, everyone is prepared for loads of shooting. And lilke I said before, we don't have certain tools. Like out of line shooting, which they have. Imperium can place basilisk out of line of sight and bombard us. They can have Lemon Russ that hide behind out of line of sight, yet, they can move , shoot and then still get to move back behind line of sight again... I could bring 20 lascannons and it wouldn't do anything if the most dangerous shooty stuff he has I can't even see. but it can shoot me with impunity.

5. We are usually less able to stand up to shooting than they are. They usually have high invul saves, some going to 3++ (smash captains looking at you). Ours are usually 5++, and we go into all sorts of convolutions just to make it 4++. I have had a smash captain tank all of my shooting in one round before because he was lucky enough to make all of his invul saves. True story. Here was a 130 point model that had already come in, wrecked some vehicle in my back line, and yet I simply couldn't kill it even in one entire round of shooting ... go figure.

I have tried so many different things. Alpha legion lascannon spam, black legion lascannon spam. Mass demon engines. Raptorial host smash captains.

They all have their problems. Like the raptorial host smash captain one was especially discouraging. I deep struck in on turn 2 the following: Three world eater chaos smash captains and two squads of warp talons. I was reasonably lucky. 4 out of 5 units made the 7 inch charge (because raptorial host). Only 1 smash captain failed the charge.

The warp talons went in first. stopped all the overwatch. And then the two smash captains went in. I killed 3 squads of sisters of battle, and then my 2 smash captains (6 hammer attacks each), even with fury of khorne to fight again, couldn't kill off one squad of breachers. There was one left. It was a blessing in disguise because I three pointed the breacher. So hey, you can't shoot at those two smash captains now!

His turn, his shooting kills off the smash captain that couldn't charge in, and the two squads of warp talons. And his counter attack melee including Celestine, his warlord cannonness, and whatever else he threw in killed off the two smash captains ... in melee! A 4++ invul just isn't as good as a 3++ invul.

And that was 600 points of deep striking melee that all got killed off within one turn... sigh. Well, they did kill off three squads of sisters and messed up one breacher squad in the turn they came in. But ... it was a lousy exchange for the all the 600 points and the CP that I dumped to try and pull this off. (2CP for raptorial host, 3 CP for fury of khorne, 1 CP to reroll a charge).

I have come to one realisation though. Never under estimate imperium melee. Just because they can roll out tons of shooting doesn't mean their melee is bad. They are not Tau. They have smashy melee characters that are every bit as dangerous as anything we can throw at them. It might be a mostly shooty army, but he just needs two or three melee capable characters in it, and those can easily wreck your day on the counter charge when your melee goes in.

I am still experimenting with different setups. And I am not adverse to going chaos soup. Its just that as I mentioned before, as I soup, then I start to soup in more and more other stuff like knights, demons, DG, TS until in the end, the actual CSM elements have been reduced to token amounts or entirely replaced... :(

Sad but true. Soup is the logical way to go to have a chance. Actual CSM ingredients are harder to justify now.

 Nym wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Daemon Princes have twice the wounds of a Smashcaptain and better T, as well as being a Psyker (unless you're like me and play Khorne :(). There's plenty of issues with Chaos without overdoing it and complaining about one of the most solid HQs in the game.

Apple and oranges. Besides, CSM DP don't have a 3++, deal way less damage than Smash Captains and have a much larger base.

TL,DR: CSM Daemon princes are trash. Only TS and Daemons ones get used (OK, sometimes Death Guard too).

They are definately not trash, even with a 5++ they are waaay better than standard smash captains (although they are 37 points more expensive). They are more durable against most weapons and they have a higher damage output.

Blood angels smash captains still rule the roost but you can put out similar damage with a flawless host deamon prince with elixir and ultimate confidence. Putting out 23 hits vs imperium units at str 8 -2 ap 2dmg is better than a smash captain in nearly all ways.

Yes TSon is a better overall standard choice but that doesn't make the unit as a whole trash.

Daemon Princes also don't give up Slay the Warlord as a matter of course and don't eat half your CPs to do their job.

You'd have to have a ridiculous standard of what counts as good to call Daemon Princes trash.

 Eldarain wrote:
Sad but true. Soup is the logical way to go to have a chance. Actual CSM ingredients are harder to justify now.

actually there are a few things CSm do good and why we show up in chaos lists.
Like purge obliterators, slaanesh obliterators, and combiplas terminators of slaanesh........

i am sure you find the common thread there

 Nym wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Daemon Princes have twice the wounds of a Smashcaptain and better T, as well as being a Psyker (unless you're like me and play Khorne :(). There's plenty of issues with Chaos without overdoing it and complaining about one of the most solid HQs in the game.

Apple and oranges. Besides, CSM DP don't have a 3++, deal way less damage than Smash Captains and have a much larger base.

TL,DR: CSM Daemon princes are trash. Only TS and Daemons ones get used (OK, sometimes Death Guard too).

Are you high?

While we're at it, a bigger Base means larger area covered by rerolls or potential threat range compared to a smaller one.

 Nym wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Daemon Princes have twice the wounds of a Smashcaptain and better T, as well as being a Psyker (unless you're like me and play Khorne :(). There's plenty of issues with Chaos without overdoing it and complaining about one of the most solid HQs in the game.

Apple and oranges. Besides, CSM DP don't have a 3++, deal way less damage than Smash Captains and have a much larger base.

TL,DR: CSM Daemon princes are trash. Only TS and Daemons ones get used (OK, sometimes Death Guard too).

try to play a flawless host Dp with ultimate confidence+elixir and let me know if it's trash

Also deal less damage? Maybe against certain targets, but other targets the Daemon Prince is the clear winner.

Bharring wrote:
Wouldn't making Chosen troops do a better job of allowing pure-VOTL Legions, Legions who've recruited since, and renegades all in one book?

Why not make legion csm take votlw again? Give them +1 attack, let them have a ccw in addition to a bolter or special weapon, a +1 to leadership, and maybe more weapon options. Of course one additional wound would be too much to ask from gw.

Gadzilla666 wrote:

Bharring wrote:
Wouldn't making Chosen troops do a better job of allowing pure-VOTL Legions, Legions who've recruited since, and renegades all in one book?

Why not make legion csm take votlw again? Give them +1 attack, let them have a ccw in addition to a bolter or special weapon, a +1 to leadership, and maybe more weapon options. Of course one additional wound would be too much to ask from gw.

Why not instead getting a propper dex 2.0 like marines?
Heck wouldn't even need the supplements, just finally traits and other things working propperly and not just relegating us to dex alphaslaaneshobliterterminator....