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 blood reaper wrote:
Are Havocs with Chain Cannons any decent? A lot of people here seem to promote Havocs with lascannons (which I already have), but I was thinking of running a squad of them with the Mark of Slaanesh. It seemed 64 (that's with Endless Cacophony) St5, AP-1 shots re-rolling to hit will shred just about anything. Factor in Veterans as well, and it seems like you'd basically be able to kill anything given enough time.

I was also tempted to use Forge Worlds Kakophoni as proxies (not only are they cheaper and nicer models, but it seems like a cool way to represent other forms of 'Sonic Weapons').

Its honestly just a range issue. 24" puts you in threat range of most other shooting in the game, and in some cases even melee. Youll be lucky to get more than a turn out of them.

Lascannons on the other hand, can comfortably squat in the back all game, being far more protected from the enemy. Chaincannons ARE fantastic on paper, but are hard to protect in practice.

 vaklor4 wrote:

 blood reaper wrote:
Are Havocs with Chain Cannons any decent? A lot of people here seem to promote Havocs with lascannons (which I already have), but I was thinking of running a squad of them with the Mark of Slaanesh. It seemed 64 (that's with Endless Cacophony) St5, AP-1 shots re-rolling to hit will shred just about anything. Factor in Veterans as well, and it seems like you'd basically be able to kill anything given enough time.

I was also tempted to use Forge Worlds Kakophoni as proxies (not only are they cheaper and nicer models, but it seems like a cool way to represent other forms of 'Sonic Weapons').

Its honestly just a range issue. 24" puts you in threat range of most other shooting in the game, and in some cases even melee. Youll be lucky to get more than a turn out of them.

Lascannons on the other hand, can comfortably squat in the back all game, being far more protected from the enemy. Chaincannons ARE fantastic on paper, but are hard to protect in practice.

yep, further, you need some movement shenanigans and they are really dangerous.
Otoh, literally everyone will shoot at them as soon as possible.

Chain Havocs are one of the best units in the roster!

They will die as soon as they are exposed though, that's their nature. It's a one-turn 150pt dakka-orgy, and they really really need a rhino to hide in, preferably tucked in a ruin somewhere, out of LoS. That way eliminators and the like can't just remove them. It also gives them +4" threat range (40mm base disembarking) adding up to 34", which is enough to target something juicy. I auto-include 2 and a rhino in most of my lists, for what it's worth. T1 one squad emerges, drops 3cp and deletes something, T2 the second squad pops out to rinse and repeat.

Boogles wrote:
Primaris Ultramarines player here been out of the loop with what's happened to CSM for a while. I got rid of my old chaos models a while ago but thinking of getting back into CSM with a start collecting box and 2 battleforces. What do you all use for anti tank? My ultramarines army relied on repulsor executioners, stormhawks, and hellblasters. I've flipped through the book a bit, but the only things that immediately stood out for this were obliterators and havoks, but even then they seemed expensive for how fragile they can be.

Also being spoiled by aggressors really shows how not great terminators are. Any way to make them not terrible? I was thinking of chain axes with combi-plasmas.

Currently, my anti-tank options are:
- Oblits
- Las Havocs
- Throwaway Raptors
- DG Haulers & DP
- CD Khorne DP with Skullreaver Axe
- Soulforged Pack with Warptime and/or advance & charge auras from Daemons
- WE smashlord

Strongly recommend holding on a week or two to see what tools PA3 brings the six Legions

Havocs w/ Chaincannons are a one-shot wonder. They pop off and then they die.

It's why I prefer Autocannons on them. They don't give up as many points and slinging out 5-6 shots on average for 115 points ain't too bad for picking off last wounds.

Hey fellows, i'm looking for advice about Black legion army building, it seems that vigilus ablaze brought alot of different combinations, but I found most of them mediocre. I'm planning to build an army around abaddon, but i'm not sure where to go from there. Most likely not the cultists spam, but any thoughs are welcome. Thanks.

 Spreelock wrote:
Hey fellows, i'm looking for advice about Black legion army building, it seems that vigilus ablaze brought alot of different combinations, but I found most of them mediocre. I'm planning to build an army around abaddon, but i'm not sure where to go from there. Most likely not the cultists spam, but any thoughs are welcome. Thanks.

I'd still consider a blob of cultists simply for screening.

2x 5 man CSM would then be the other troops for the Battalion requirement.

Consider havocs, what with abbigail beeing really good to buff them, especially lascannons or alternatively Autocannons.

BL trait sadly is , erm, well you see when the BL trait even comes into play. So ehh.

Second HQ you could go with a Chainsword lord with ghovshrex teeth and Flames of spite
of course with jumppack.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Havocs w/ Chaincannons are a one-shot wonder. They pop off and then they die.

It's why I prefer Autocannons on them. They don't give up as many points and slinging out 5-6 shots on average for 115 points ain't too bad for picking off last wounds.

The reason Autocannon havocks survive is because they don't do anything and get ignored. Your opponent has to shoot something.

For 40 extra points you do twice the damage.

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Spreelock wrote:
Hey fellows, i'm looking for advice about Black legion army building, it seems that vigilus ablaze brought alot of different combinations, but I found most of them mediocre. I'm planning to build an army around abaddon, but i'm not sure where to go from there. Most likely not the cultists spam, but any thoughs are welcome. Thanks.

I'd still consider a blob of cultists simply for screening.

2x 5 man CSM would then be the other troops for the Battalion requirement.

Consider havocs, what with abbigail beeing really good to buff them, especially lascannons or alternatively Autocannons.

BL trait sadly is , erm, well you see when the BL trait even comes into play. So ehh.

Second HQ you could go with a Chainsword lord with ghovshrex teeth and Flames of spite
of course with jumppack.

Hey, thanks. Yeah the legion trait is a bit of a downer, but that's alright. Are terminators viable option? I like the bringers of despair specialist detachment, as it can give you addittional character with full reroll to hit (Chaos Lord). Oh, and I forgot the chainsword Lord, i'll have to look into that again.

 small_gods wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Havocs w/ Chaincannons are a one-shot wonder. They pop off and then they die.

It's why I prefer Autocannons on them. They don't give up as many points and slinging out 5-6 shots on average for 115 points ain't too bad for picking off last wounds.

The reason Autocannon havocks survive is because they don't do anything and get ignored. Your opponent has to shoot something.

For 40 extra points you do twice the damage.

Don't do anything? Autocannons are fantastic. I'm also not for giving up more points than I need to for this army already, especially when that squad is 150 points with the effective range of 24"

Not Online!!! wrote:

 vaklor4 wrote:

 blood reaper wrote:
Are Havocs with Chain Cannons any decent? A lot of people here seem to promote Havocs with lascannons (which I already have), but I was thinking of running a squad of them with the Mark of Slaanesh. It seemed 64 (that's with Endless Cacophony) St5, AP-1 shots re-rolling to hit will shred just about anything. Factor in Veterans as well, and it seems like you'd basically be able to kill anything given enough time.

I was also tempted to use Forge Worlds Kakophoni as proxies (not only are they cheaper and nicer models, but it seems like a cool way to represent other forms of 'Sonic Weapons').

Its honestly just a range issue. 24" puts you in threat range of most other shooting in the game, and in some cases even melee. Youll be lucky to get more than a turn out of them.

Lascannons on the other hand, can comfortably squat in the back all game, being far more protected from the enemy. Chaincannons ARE fantastic on paper, but are hard to protect in practice.

yep, further, you need some movement shenanigans and they are really dangerous.
Otoh, literally everyone will shoot at them as soon as possible.

If people are shooting at your chaincannon havocs ASAP, then you don't have enough threat saturation. Honestly, I run 3 squads of havocs, I used to run 4 (yes I bought 4 boxes) (before someone mentioned the "advisement" of 3), but given those 2 things I found that autocannons never really did much. So I run Las, missile and chaincannons all as alpha legion, and try to dig them into cover. It's true that they do go before my other havocs (most of the time, because they aren't in cover and need to get closer), and I find they are only extremely effective against mob army's. I also run chaincannons in my 3 squads of marines in my red corsairs detachment. I need to try running the havocs up in a rhino as suggested, then deep striking my oblits next to them, can I put a chaos lord in a rhino (I don't see why not)?

note: my army isn't going to win tourneys, havocs just aren't that good in general, too glass cannon. But it does win me a fair share of games locally.

^ yeah, you can put a CL in a Rhino, though I prefer giving them a jump pack or bike or Steed or Disc. More utility when the gunners are dead or under melee threat

Quick question:
Would an Airwing of Xiphon Patern Interceptors be a good thing to run in a mostly melee army of Khorne CSM?

 Draco765 wrote:
Quick question:
Would an Airwing of Xiphon Patern Interceptors be a good thing to run in a mostly melee army of Khorne CSM?

I mean if you wanted to keep theme Heldrakes would be better, but Xiphons are still decent as far as I remember.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Draco765 wrote:
Quick question:
Would an Airwing of Xiphon Patern Interceptors be a good thing to run in a mostly melee army of Khorne CSM?

I mean if you wanted to keep theme Heldrakes would be better, but Xiphons are still decent as far as I remember.

Xiphons are pretty darned great, and would fill a massive hole in an army of brawlers. They can hit pretty much anything on the board on a 3+, and force all round bubblewrapping of keystone buff characters. If there’s big chunky LOS blocking terrain, they can avoid T1 firepower without losing their own.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
I’m cautiously optimistic that Word Bearers might get the first half of the Black Templars Trait - reroll any charge dice. If that comes to pass, their Raptorial Hosts of Warp Talons and smashlords could become pretty darned mean.

Stretch hope? A CSM army upgrades DttFE to Death To The False Everyone, and a WB army that summons daemons will give them their Aura bonuses, and also not lose their own CSM & WB army bonuses when cosexisting with Daemons (perhaps via a WT).

Anyway, enough wishlisting

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Draco765 wrote:
Quick question:
Would an Airwing of Xiphon Patern Interceptors be a good thing to run in a mostly melee army of Khorne CSM?

I mean if you wanted to keep theme Heldrakes would be better, but Xiphons are still decent as far as I remember.

Drakes are great, but the fact that Xiphons have the extra turn at the end of movement, and are basically flying Predators, with an extra weapon, seems like it can do good.

Have one Xiphon and one Drake already, found a deal for a cheap Xiphon which I could then make those three an airwing for the extra command point.

 lindsay40k wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Draco765 wrote:
Quick question:
Would an Airwing of Xiphon Patern Interceptors be a good thing to run in a mostly melee army of Khorne CSM?

I mean if you wanted to keep theme Heldrakes would be better, but Xiphons are still decent as far as I remember.

Xiphons are pretty darned great, and would fill a massive hole in an army of brawlers. They can hit pretty much anything on the board on a 3+, and force all round bubblewrapping of keystone buff characters. If there’s big chunky LOS blocking terrain, they can avoid T1 firepower without losing their own.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
I’m cautiously optimistic that Word Bearers might get the first half of the Black Templars Trait - reroll any charge dice. If that comes to pass, their Raptorial Hosts of Warp Talons and smashlords could become pretty darned mean.

Stretch hope? A CSM army upgrades DttFE to Death To The False Everyone, and a WB army that summons daemons will give them their Aura bonuses, and also not lose their own CSM & WB army bonuses when cosexisting with Daemons (perhaps via a WT).

Anyway, enough wishlisting

I realize you're wishlisting but wouldn't rerolling charges be a world eaters or night lords thing? Night lords had it in 7th. Can't remember about world eaters.

How good would having a battalion of World Eaters and one of Brazen Beasts do in the same army? Ideally, I'd want my BB heavy firepower to offset my WE's emphasis on melee. I'd throw in one for the Red Corsairs for the command points and psychic powers (if I give them a different mark).

IMHO Chain Havocs are a trap. You get a huge amount of firepower, but they will be targeted by everything and anything. Better IMHO to put the Chaincannon in 5-man CSM squads; you lose the move and fire w/out penalty but the high volume of shots makes up for it, and then you spread out the firepower. Keep Havocs in the back with long range weapons, and use the move and fire without penalty to reposition.

Havocs with buffs will do 14.5 damage to a rotated knight in one round. They will alternatively murder ten intercessors in one round, if you prefer. How could that possibly be a trap?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I'd say they're one of the few top-tier competitive units in the codex in the current meta. The 'trap' is that your opponent must absolutely and with extreme prejudice kill them because they represent such a serious threat. For 150pts.

It's a trap simply because of the firepower that will be directed. So there are two ways to do it:

1) Don't and use Chaincannons elsewhere to prevent focus fire while havocs do what they do best which is to provide long-range fire support.
2) Use them to make your opponent waste shots into them out of fear of the Endless Cacophony Havoc, while you have other things equally deadly.

#2 works best if you have a lot of threats on the board because your opponent has to pick which he ignores. I remember a lot of discussion when it was previewed gushing over the chaincannon havocs, but to my knowledge, they never really became that amazing of a unit that you saw dominating.

Wayniac wrote:
It's a trap simply because of the firepower that will be directed. So there are two ways to do it:

1) Don't and use Chaincannons elsewhere to prevent focus fire
2) Use them to make your opponent waste shots into them out of fear of the Endless Cacophony Havoc, while you have other things equally deadly.

#2 works best if you have a lot of threats on the board because your opponent has to pick which he ignores. I remember a lot of discussion when it was previewed gushing over the chaincannon havocs, but to my knowledge, they never really became that amazing of a unit that you saw dominating.

TBH, if you get a round of shooting in, they do wonders.
The key issue is that you need to use other ressources to get to that point, f.e. AL stratagem, Formation stratagem, etc.

Way I see it, there’s two ways to play Havocs.

Long range high power guns that start on the ground out of sight, and on T1 take rooftop positions to pound away for as long as possible.

Burner short range dakka unit that starts in a transport or forward operating, then uses 3CP & a psychic power or prayer to delete a horde.

The former is somewhat dependent on terrain. The latter is very dependent upon terrain and moving parts and deployments and infiltrators.

The burner dakka loadout is a load of fun, but it categorically not a distraction Carnifex. 150pts of T5 5W that must be taken out is just going to get shot away by any army that’s not a garagehammer carpet of Berzerkers or Genestealers or Choppa Boyz.

Your chain-havocs will die. They will jump out of a rhino for a 36" threat range. They will delete or bracket anything you point them at. This will cost you 150pts + support, which will transfer next turn to another unit.

They delete bubblewrap, flay intercessors, bust tanks, kill 65% of a knight. In fact they do about 40% more damage to a knight than las havocs do.

Faith & Fury contents page unveiled - https://www.warhammer-community.com/2019/11/11/faith-fury-a-first-lookgw-homepage-post-3/

Daemon weapons are back, and with CRR being a thing they might be a LOT better than last edition’s Warp Roulette. There’s probably a CSM equivalent to Combat Doctrines, and maaaybe Legion equivalents to Scions of Ultramar

No Legion psychic disciplines, no Legion special issue wargear, one page of Stratagems each, no mention of datacards

Looks like our “Codex Supplement tier” extra rules are more like Vigilus BL tier

Also, loyalists get to soup up their characters, and BT seem to get Chapter Litanies. Chaplains definitely needed it, to be fair, but we’re not getting parity - we’ve moved upfield but so have the goalposts

Am I just being bad at math, but doesn't the new khorne axe math out worse than daemonic axe vs KEQ and VEQ on daemon princes? That's not even counting on what happens if you roll a 1.

Edit: I was a bit off, the new axe is ever so slightly stronger than the daemonic axe. But at that point, why wouldn't one just go for a slaanesh DP with talons, intoxicating elixir and warptime/diabolic strength for a better prince anyway?

 lindsay40k wrote:
Faith & Fury contents page unveiled - https://www.warhammer-community.com/2019/11/11/faith-fury-a-first-lookgw-homepage-post-3/

Daemon weapons are back, and with CRR being a thing they might be a LOT better than last edition’s Warp Roulette. There’s probably a CSM equivalent to Combat Doctrines, and maaaybe Legion equivalents to Scions of Ultramar

No Legion psychic disciplines, no Legion special issue wargear, one page of Stratagems each, no mention of datacards

Looks like our “Codex Supplement tier” extra rules are more like Vigilus BL tier

Also, loyalists get to soup up their characters, and BT seem to get Chapter Litanies. Chaplains definitely needed it, to be fair, but we’re not getting parity - we’ve moved upfield but so have the goalposts

I am not so sure about the CSM equivalent to combat doctrines, but I hope you're right. Sure would be neat but we'll see. I wonder if there are any non god-specific daemon weapons, or any ranged weapons in the mix?

we’ve moved upfield but so have the goalposts

Considering heat and IF wave of doom the stratagems in there must be bonkers else the goal posts are on a whole other continent

Oh, and Daemonkin Warlord Traits remain out of print, so if you want to make your cool new Sorcerer into a Warp Lord, the tactic there is to go back in time and buy Shadowspear

As i said on the rumours thread the Khorne weapon might be a bit tasty on a WE daemon prince.

7 Attacks on the charge hitting on 2's with a re-roll at average strength 10-11 -5 2dmg, thats on average taking 10 wounds off a knight in one round of combat.