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Wardogs are the Chaos Armiger name.

orkswubwub wrote:

 buddha wrote:
Any thoughts for CSMs on how to counter prophets of flesh Talos and grotesque spam? I just can't seem to put those units down if anyone has some good thoughts on the matter.

So from a competitive standpoint, ahriman and friends = death hex on grots -> 6+ save -> butcher cannons, lord discordant or pick your poison = many dead grots. You need to use the +2 to cast and ahriman to try to prevent the deny. Do this two turns and you have to deal with many less grots...

That's a great suggestion, thank you.

Niiru wrote:

 p5freak wrote:
Did anyone realize that a helbrute with a power scourge and hateful assault now has 9 attacks at S8 AP-2 D2, or 12 with two power scourges ? The helbrute has two melee weapons because GW some time ago ruled that every model is equipped with a basic melee weapon. Which means one additional attack, the helbrute has two melee weapons, plus one for hateful assault.

Is this actually accurate? The two melee weapons thing?

So contemptors only need one fist to get a bonus attack, and so the second fist might as well always be a butcher cannon?

Having 2 melee weapons doesn't automatically give you +1 attack in 8th, only previous editions.

 vaklor4 wrote:
Wardogs are the Chaos Armiger name.

Ahhh I was thinking of ChemDogs!




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Platuan4th wrote:


Having 2 melee weapons doesn't automatically give you +1 attack in 8th, only previous editions.

All chaos dreads get +1 attack if they have 2x melee weapons. It's on their slates, not because of a universal rule

Ah, forgot the ability was on the Brute itself rather than the weapons like most units.

 Platuan4th wrote:

Having 2 melee weapons doesn't automatically give you +1 attack in 8th, only previous editions.

Read the rules before trying to lecture others Helbrutes get +1 attack when they have two melee weapons.

 p5freak wrote:

 Platuan4th wrote:

Having 2 melee weapons doesn't automatically give you +1 attack in 8th, only previous editions.

Read the rules before trying to lecture others Helbrutes get +1 attack when they have two melee weapons.

I actually did, thanks, just the main book. The main rulebook originally says (paraphrased) "Unless the model already has a melee weapon, then it's equipped with one with the following stats", which the errata changed for zero reason.

While I want the additional attack for my contemptors it seems like an unintentional benefit. Is this generally accepted and how do larger events handle this?

dominuschao wrote:
While I want the additional attack for my contemptors it seems like an unintentional benefit. Is this generally accepted and how do larger events handle this?

I'm also curious about this. It means for a small number of point more you can have a fist+butcher cannon contemptor, with all the benefits of a double-fist contemptor plus a better weapon.

Edit:

Also then - what is currently the best loadout for a contemptor? I would prefer not to run double guns, as that means it loses all melee ability, and I know it used to be double-soulburner fists but they're now very expensive. I was currently planning double-ectoplasma fists, unless there's a reason to go single-fist plus a butcher cannon or something.

The best is still probably double butchers. That said I enjoy running both of mine with butcher and fist and sometimes I add the plas. If the +1 attack is legit, which it seems it is, then I've received a huge buff. 6 attacks base first round of combat is respectable.

Double C Beam contemptors are also decent especially if you have hoardes of plaguebearers upfront. You can threaten both infantry and armour with them as long as they're at least 24" away.

I dont know why the rule was changed in the BRB. I dont think any tournament players noticed this, and its very likely not intended. A happy accident in favor of chaos. I didnt discover it, read about it on 1d4chan.

It is clearly an oversight, and the minute it gets past a TO and performs well it’ll get on the FAQ list


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 p5freak wrote:
I dont know why the rule was changed in the BRB. I dont think any tournament players noticed this, and its very likely not intended. A happy accident in favor of chaos. I didnt discover it, read about it on 1d4chan.

I had it come up in a game, pre-CCWs-all-round, that a Culexus assassin engaging a character with Power Fist or whatever is impossible to hit

 lindsay40k wrote:
It is clearly an oversight, and the minute it gets past a TO and performs well it’ll get on the FAQ list

You can pop smoke in the opponents shooting phase, 100% not intended, this didnt get on the FAQ list either.

 p5freak wrote:

 lindsay40k wrote:
It is clearly an oversight, and the minute it gets past a TO and performs well it’ll get on the FAQ list

You can pop smoke in the opponents shooting phase, 100% not intended, this didnt get on the FAQ list either.

Does this have any actual benefit?

Only thing I can think of is that you can choose not to pop smoke until the enemy shoots at your unit, and then react by popping smoke... but once they've declared shooting I don't think you can 'react' by popping smoke as they have already started shooting and get to finish before anything else can happen. The game doesn't have 'reaction' phases.

Niiru wrote:

 p5freak wrote:

 lindsay40k wrote:
It is clearly an oversight, and the minute it gets past a TO and performs well it’ll get on the FAQ list

You can pop smoke in the opponents shooting phase, 100% not intended, this didnt get on the FAQ list either.

Does this have any actual benefit?

Only thing I can think of is that you can choose not to pop smoke until the enemy shoots at your unit, and then react by popping smoke... but once they've declared shooting I don't think you can 'react' by popping smoke as they have already started shooting and get to finish before anything else can happen. The game doesn't have 'reaction' phases.

What you described is the only benefit. And you can do it after your opponent declared what he is shooting at.

Besides the TS and WB, what CSM legion/warband has the best rules for summoning daemons? I'm thinking of building an Invocators army, and since daemon summoning is their thing, I was wondering who was best at it. I want to run them with Red Corsairs rules due to the CP advantage, but I don't want to have a daemon-unfriendly army.

 ArcaneHorror wrote:
Besides the TS and WB, what CSM legion/warband has the best rules for summoning daemons? I'm thinking of building an Invocators army, and since daemon summoning is their thing, I was wondering who was best at it. I want to run them with Red Corsairs rules due to the CP advantage, but I don't want to have a daemon-unfriendly army.

If you really want to go for it, Word Bearers have the fluff and a Stratagem for it. WB player myself and I have to warn you, they’ve a really weak Legion trait and Summoning is gimmicky at best.

Alpha Legion can infiltrate characters, which presents the option to summon from the midfield T1. On a 24” deployment, this can present alpha strikes with Pink Horrors and Flamers.

Master of Possession has a spell that casts a safe super summon. Budget a reroll, and it’s not impossible to advance forward and drop a GUO 9” away from the enemy on T1. Or a Soulgrinder. Or a mountain of Beasts of Nurgle. (Conga line them back to Horticulous and they get a charge re-roll.) Whilst this is an extraordinary way to launch slow super tough units, it is a huge gimmick that will frequently fail. Consider a Daemonkin WT on the MoP to improve chances of success. Even then, SoB and Black Templars and World Eaters and I think a certain Forge World are hard counters.

Graia is the one with the anti-Psyker strat, I believe. Someone can correct me if I'm wrong.

 p5freak wrote:

 lindsay40k wrote:
It is clearly an oversight, and the minute it gets past a TO and performs well it’ll get on the FAQ list

You can pop smoke in the opponents shooting phase, 100% not intended, this didnt get on the FAQ list either.

Lol this is absolute nonsense. You definitely cannot pop smoke in your opponent's shooting phase. Nothing allows you to select your Rhino to shoot so you cannot forgo shooting in order to pop smoke.

As for the CCW on Dreads, RAW probably it works but I've seen TOs rule against this so good luck to any who try it. It's definitely not RAI.

saint_red wrote:

 p5freak wrote:

 lindsay40k wrote:
It is clearly an oversight, and the minute it gets past a TO and performs well it’ll get on the FAQ list

You can pop smoke in the opponents shooting phase, 100% not intended, this didnt get on the FAQ list either.

Lol this is absolute nonsense. You definitely cannot pop smoke in your opponent's shooting phase. Nothing allows you to select your Rhino to shoot so you cannot forgo shooting in order to pop smoke.

As for the CCW on Dreads, RAW probably it works but I've seen TOs rule against this so good luck to any who try it. It's definitely not RAI.

Interesting for TOs to rule against it. I can understand when they rule against interactions that are ambiguous, but the rules clearly were changed in order to make that interaction work. They're just making the rules up as they go at that point.

Which is fine, they're the TO they can do what they want I guess, just seems odd that they're interpreting solely on what they believe the intention is.

 lindsay40k wrote:

 ArcaneHorror wrote:
Besides the TS and WB, what CSM legion/warband has the best rules for summoning daemons? I'm thinking of building an Invocators army, and since daemon summoning is their thing, I was wondering who was best at it. I want to run them with Red Corsairs rules due to the CP advantage, but I don't want to have a daemon-unfriendly army.

If you really want to go for it, Word Bearers have the fluff and a Stratagem for it. WB player myself and I have to warn you, they’ve a really weak Legion trait and Summoning is gimmicky at best.

Alpha Legion can infiltrate characters, which presents the option to summon from the midfield T1. On a 24” deployment, this can present alpha strikes with Pink Horrors and Flamers.

Master of Possession has a spell that casts a safe super summon. Budget a reroll, and it’s not impossible to advance forward and drop a GUO 9” away from the enemy on T1. Or a Soulgrinder. Or a mountain of Beasts of Nurgle. (Conga line them back to Horticulous and they get a charge re-roll.) Whilst this is an extraordinary way to launch slow super tough units, it is a huge gimmick that will frequently fail. Consider a Daemonkin WT on the MoP to improve chances of success. Even then, SoB and Black Templars and World Eaters and I think a certain Forge World are hard counters.

Yeah, I'm not sure about having a WB army, as they have some of the weakest traits of all the CSM armies, though I could have a Word Bearers battalion, an Alpha Legion battalion with a Tzeentch mark, and a Red Corsairs battalion, or maybe just have one CSM battalion and two daemon ones to denote that they've already been summoned. I have been considering building an Alpha Legion army in and of itself, so I could maybe make an Invocators army with AL rules. I really wish that the Word Bearers had got better stuff.

I also wish that the Fallen could take marks of Chaos. Yes I know what they're origins are, but for those that truly did turn to Chaos, they should be able to take marks. An army formation that would be really wacky, at least lorewise, would be to have an army with Cypher as warlord and a small Fallen battalion, then have two other battalions filled to the brim with Khorne Berzerkers, DP's, and maybe even Kharn.

saint_red wrote:

 p5freak wrote:

 lindsay40k wrote:
It is clearly an oversight, and the minute it gets past a TO and performs well it’ll get on the FAQ list

You can pop smoke in the opponents shooting phase, 100% not intended, this didnt get on the FAQ list either.

Lol this is absolute nonsense. You definitely cannot pop smoke in your opponent's shooting phase. Nothing allows you to select your Rhino to shoot so you cannot forgo shooting in order to pop smoke.

Read the rules and FAQs before claiming that its nonsense, because its not.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/772350.page

 p5freak wrote:

saint_red wrote:

 p5freak wrote:

 lindsay40k wrote:
It is clearly an oversight, and the minute it gets past a TO and performs well it’ll get on the FAQ list

You can pop smoke in the opponents shooting phase, 100% not intended, this didnt get on the FAQ list either.

Lol this is absolute nonsense. You definitely cannot pop smoke in your opponent's shooting phase. Nothing allows you to select your Rhino to shoot so you cannot forgo shooting in order to pop smoke.

Read the rules and FAQs before claiming that its nonsense, because its not.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/772350.page

You could claim that you can use your smoke launchers in my turn but because there is no activation it would fall under the sequencing rules in the main rule book.

So yes you can but only after the player who's turn it is says you can and I'm guessing they'll want to shoot all their guns first!

Anybody tried any of the hellforged super heavys? Got a fellblade and a Cerberus I want to try out. Not at the same time of course. Yeah I know their not remotely points efficient but rule of cool and I think they'll be fun. Am I going to get tabled?

Gadzilla666 wrote:
Anybody tried any of the hellforged super heavys? Got a fellblade and a Cerberus I want to try out. Not at the same time of course. Yeah I know their not remotely points efficient but rule of cool and I think they'll be fun. Am I going to get tabled?

I suggest asking your opponent to ignore the Forgeworld chapter approved point changes for them. They were already points inefficient in the index, but CA made 99% of big models basically trash.

 vaklor4 wrote:

Gadzilla666 wrote:
Anybody tried any of the hellforged super heavys? Got a fellblade and a Cerberus I want to try out. Not at the same time of course. Yeah I know their not remotely points efficient but rule of cool and I think they'll be fun. Am I going to get tabled?

I suggest asking your opponent to ignore the Forgeworld chapter approved point changes for them. They were already points inefficient in the index, but CA made 99% of big models basically trash.

there is no reason in the meta for baneblades, allready, and the fellblade is worse baneblade.
Just get a knight with SPIKEZ because that is what gw wants.

Gadzilla666 wrote:
Anybody tried any of the hellforged super heavys? Got a fellblade and a Cerberus I want to try out. Not at the same time of course. Yeah I know their not remotely points efficient but rule of cool and I think they'll be fun. Am I going to get tabled?

You would need a lot of other bodies with not many points left to try to make it work. You could run in a Black Legion supreme command with sorcerer, lord and dark apostle (council of traitors) to give it -2 to be hit (mark of nurgle).

Then you'd need a lot of plaguebearers or similar to clog up the board.

You could even use the purged rules instead so you can tie up in close combat and annihilate whatever you've pinned in there.

 small_gods wrote:

Gadzilla666 wrote:
Anybody tried any of the hellforged super heavys? Got a fellblade and a Cerberus I want to try out. Not at the same time of course. Yeah I know their not remotely points efficient but rule of cool and I think they'll be fun. Am I going to get tabled?

You would need a lot of other bodies with not many points left to try to make it work. You could run in a Black Legion supreme command with sorcerer, lord and dark apostle (council of traitors) to give it -2 to be hit (mark of nurgle).

Then you'd need a lot of plaguebearers or similar to clog up the board.

You could even use the purged rules instead so you can tie up in close combat and annihilate whatever you've pinned in there.

Yeah I was planning on running a lord and sorceror for buffs. Wasn't planning on a lot of chaff. Was thinking of using the fellblade and a couple other scary units like dreadnoughts up front while deepstrikeing some units in the backline to split up focus. The points make it pretty hard to go below 2500. I like the supreme command detachment idea. Definitely worth a try.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Not Online!!! wrote:

 vaklor4 wrote:

Gadzilla666 wrote:
Anybody tried any of the hellforged super heavys? Got a fellblade and a Cerberus I want to try out. Not at the same time of course. Yeah I know their not remotely points efficient but rule of cool and I think they'll be fun. Am I going to get tabled?

I suggest asking your opponent to ignore the Forgeworld chapter approved point changes for them. They were already points inefficient in the index, but CA made 99% of big models basically trash.

there is no reason in the meta for baneblades, allready, and the fellblade is worse baneblade.
Just get a knight with SPIKEZ because that is what gw wants.

I'm not very good at just doing what I'm supposed to. Anyway I've already got a spikey knight and I've actually came up with a few lists with it and one or both of the tanks in it. They won't win any tournament or maybe even any games but they'll be fun. And maybe gw will drop the cost next ca and they'll be better. Probably not but you never know. The Cerberus isn't nearly as overpriced anyway and is cheaper and better than the loyalist version.

 p5freak wrote:

saint_red wrote:

 p5freak wrote:

 lindsay40k wrote:
It is clearly an oversight, and the minute it gets past a TO and performs well it’ll get on the FAQ list

You can pop smoke in the opponents shooting phase, 100% not intended, this didnt get on the FAQ list either.

Lol this is absolute nonsense. You definitely cannot pop smoke in your opponent's shooting phase. Nothing allows you to select your Rhino to shoot so you cannot forgo shooting in order to pop smoke.

Read the rules and FAQs before claiming that its nonsense, because its not.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/772350.page

It is nonsense and you are completely wrong. People in that thread explain why. You cannot activate your model in your enemy's shooting phase. You cannot shoot or forgo shooting without first activating your model. You cannot pop smoke in your opponent's shooting phase. This isn't a rules thread so I'm not interested in debating you but for other people reading this don't be mislead by this comment.