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small_gods wrote: Well I think half of the problem is that you brought a hard counter list. Oblits are potent and have one fairly guaranteed round of shooting. If you had turned up and your friend had brought 100 guardsmen and a load of artillery you'd be in for a bad time because you'd be out of range after the deepstrike and then dead.
That's not exactly the point. Last game, my list was well balanced and it was eaten up.
I'm saying the meta is backsliding. Used to be you couldn't do this with 8th edition armies.
small_gods wrote: The other problem is that both oblits and repulsors are glass cannons. Neither is tough for their points and both hit like a ton of bricks. If half of your list was nurgle daemons and half of his deathwatch. Then you would have had a different game.
"Repulsors are glass cannons" - nah.
3 of them on the board is very hard to deal with.
What you actually mean, skew lists have a chance of ruining the games for balanced lists, leading to more Anti-skewlists in the meta, which leads to a wargame devolving into rock paper scissors (and shotgun thanks to GW for the broken units)
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
small_gods wrote: Well I think half of the problem is that you brought a hard counter list. Oblits are potent and have one fairly guaranteed round of shooting. If you had turned up and your friend had brought 100 guardsmen and a load of artillery you'd be in for a bad time because you'd be out of range after the deepstrike and then dead.
That's not exactly the point. Last game, my list was well balanced and it was eaten up.
I'm saying the meta is backsliding. Used to be you couldn't do this with 8th edition armies.
small_gods wrote: The other problem is that both oblits and repulsors are glass cannons. Neither is tough for their points and both hit like a ton of bricks. If half of your list was nurgle daemons and half of his deathwatch. Then you would have had a different game.
"Repulsors are glass cannons" - nah.
3 of them on the board is very hard to deal with.
Repulsors are glass cannons though. Just 3 squads of havocks with lascannons and a lord will kill 2 straight off the bat. You can even hide behind terrain and move and shoot if you get second turn. That's around 500 points killing 630 points.
There are more people building skew lists around glass cannon units because it feels like you're really winning when you table someone on t3. But iy relys not running into a list like 9 oblits or 120 plaguebearers etc.
small_gods wrote: Repulsors are glass cannons though. Just 3 squads of havocks with lascannons and a lord will kill 2 straight off the bat. You can even hide behind terrain and move and shoot if you get second turn. That's around 500 points killing 630 points.
There are more people building skew lists around glass cannon units because it feels like you're really winning when you table someone on t3. But iy relys not running into a list like 9 oblits or 120 plaguebearers etc.
Then I have no clue what you mean when you say glass cannon. I took it to mean a fragile unit with a powerful alpha strike.
T8 W16 Sv3 with enemy shooting and charge distance modifiers is very respectable.
If your gauge for the word is "what happens when you shoot them with 12 lascannons and a Chaos Lord," then sure, they're fragile like a Knight Castellan.
small_gods wrote: Repulsors are glass cannons though. Just 3 squads of havocks with lascannons and a lord will kill 2 straight off the bat. You can even hide behind terrain and move and shoot if you get second turn. That's around 500 points killing 630 points.
There are more people building skew lists around glass cannon units because it feels like you're really winning when you table someone on t3. But iy relys not running into a list like 9 oblits or 120 plaguebearers etc.
Then I have no clue what you mean when you say glass cannon. I took it to mean a fragile unit with a powerful alpha strike.
T8 W16 Sv3 with enemy shooting and charge distance modifiers is very respectable.
If your gauge for the word is "what happens when you shoot them with 12 lascannons and a Chaos Lord," then sure, they're fragile like a Knight Castellan.
What modifers to shooting? You mean raven guard?
Also they are fragile for their points. For 945 points you could have 6 leman russes, 7 plagueburst crawlers, 2.5 gallants or 6.5 doomsday arks. All of which are much more survivable but put out much less damage. Hence glass cannon.
That's not to say I don't think they're undercosted. But that's GWs marketing strategy for new units, underpoint them for a year by 10-20% so people buy them. Then hit them with CA points increases.
Anyone know how much they shot, ap and damage? I’ve never had the pleasure of running into one yet, but I think one at the club is making a new marine list with one or two.
Tazberry wrote: Anyone know how much they shot, ap and damage? I’ve never had the pleasure of running into one yet, but I think one at the club is making a new marine list with one or two.
They have a main turrets which fires 4 super lascannon shots, str 10, ap-4, 3-6 dmg, 18 heavy bolter shots and a whole bunch for str 4 shots. A little bit of everything!
Let's not forget they shoot twice with the main gun when they move less than half the full distance.
In a previous game, each tank was putting out more than 40 shots a turn. They created a kill zone in the middle of the table, wiped out a ton of my stuff.
My Word Bearers had a ruck with Space Wolves today
ITC rules, Champions scenario where you get a central objective and one in each DZ. Front-line Assault deployment.
We had
Spoiler:
Chaos Lord (Armourbane), Exalted Champion, DA (VoL, CC), Sorcerer (Prescience, Warptime); 3x5 Heretacs (usually go with Cultists but I wanted to run an all-Marines list); 8 Zerks with PF, 10 NMs with Blastmasters & Lightning Claw, 5 Terminators with plasma, HF, Icon of Wrath; 5 Raptors with triple Melta; Autocannon Havocs, ML Havocs, LR Proteus with Heavy Flamers; Rhino with Havoc.
-
Sniper Phobos Lord (+1 damage shooting trait), Primaris Rune Priest (cover aura spell, -1 to hit Malediction, armour of Russ), Bjorn, Gravis Lord; 2x5 Intercessors, 5 Infiltrators; Murderfang, Wulfen Shield Dread, Redemptor Dread with Lucius drop pod; Lascannons Long Fangs with Cyclone Shield Terminator, Heavy Plasma Long Fangs with Cyclone Shield Terminator, 5 Hellblasters
I let her deploy first. She put her Plasma Fangs in a tall central building, with Infiltrators below holding her objective nominated as Engineers. Las Fangs in a tall side building with sniper Lord, overlooking my objective, and with Intercessors on the ground to prevent ground floor deep strikes. Gravis Lord and Hellblasters (Engineers) outflanked. Redemptor In Drop Pod. Shield Dread and Intercessors led Bjorn and Murderfang with Rune Priest right up front in the middle. Missions were Engineers (2 units forfeit fighting to mine VP’s from Objectives), Behind Enemy Lines (have units Start & end their turn in enemy DZ), Marked for Death (kill LR, Havocs, Havocs, Zerks)
I put my objective in a corner behind a hilltop wall and nominated both Havocs squads as Engineers. Land Raider below, empty. Heretacs either side of the formation to anchor against outflanks. Chaos Lord able to be heard by all of them. Termies and Raptors in reserve. Zerks, NMs, Sorcerer and DA behind Heretac squad in a ruin at ground level, planning to jump out and grab a VP off the central objective in the first turn. Rhino deploys as an easy target for Lascannons. Missions were Engineers, Headhunters (kill characters), Marked for Death (the four dreads).
I let her have turn one; her Plasma Fangs have no targets, and I want to be the one moving onto Objectives last in a round, and I have a Devastation Battery. I cast -1 to be hit on the Land Raider (she later casts -1 to hit on it). Her Death Star of dreads marches on the centre. Only one Intercessor tagging the objective - if I roll 3+ to advance my Heretacs, I’ll grab the first end of round VP for it. Redemptor drops in right in front of my lines. A Punishing Volley of Krak Missiles deletes it. Yeah, new Havocs are pretty cool! Her Las Fangs and Cyclones don’t take the Rhino bait, using a strat to ignore hit modifiers and pound the Land Raider down to 4W. Sniper Lord fails to Wound Chaos Lord. Bjorn and the Shield Dread roll 12 & 11 for their charges, running through a gap in the ruin wall and ragdolling the Berzerkers and Heretacs and piling in to the Noise Marines. But! The Berzerker Champion and one of his squad lives. I throw 4CP at VotLW and Fury of Khorne. 12 Power Fist attacks wounding on 3+ with full rerolls punishes their impetuousity. Then none of them run to morale. WORD BEARERS TRAIT IS AWESOME
My first turn. Heretacs on either side of my objective scatter to block outflanks. Land Raider moves up towards drop Pod with Chaos Lord. Sorcerer fails to cast anything. Heavy weapons on Land Raider and Havocs focus on lascannons long Fangs; I want firepower supremacy, and rid of that sniper lord’s screen. Small arms target the drop Pod. Twin heavy Flamer gets two hits that fail to Wound. Noise Marine pistols troll Bjorn magnificently, then CCDA shows them how it’s done. Zerks go down fighting against Shield Dread, whilst Rhino drives into it. Land Raider, CL, and Heretacs charge the Drop Pod. Knock it down to 1W. YAY SHE CAN’T SHOOT AT THEM. I let her make a Shock Assault attack for it, hitting on a 6 due to SW trait
First round ends with me 3-4 ahead.
Her turn. DA fails to pray, because of course he does.
My knee-jerk rants about him getting a fail state on his ability and costing more for the privilege immediately feel vindicated. Hellblasters have no useful point of entry, so they stay in reserve. Gravis Lord turns up in a blind spot just outside the NM building. Murderfang, Intercessors, and Rune Priest move up to try to join the mosh pit. Long Fangs, clearly shaken, only manage to kill a Havoc Champion. Rune Priest does nothing. Gravis Lord successfully charges the Noise Marines with an 11. STOP THIS. Murderfang, Intercessors, and Rune Priest declare charges. They can only reach the Rhino that’s bothering Shield Dread. Gravis Lord stabs five Noise Marines. They get free shots with their Bolt Pistols, inflicting a Wound. Intercessors tip over the Rhino. It explodes. It inflicts 3W on all of her units in the mosh pit. It kills a Noise Marine. Who takes a free shot with his Bolt Pistol, wounding Gravis Lord again. Noise Marines make their attacks. The Champion’s Lightning Claw kills Gravis Lord. Rock and roll! Land Raider eats the Drop Pod.
My turn. Land Raider moves up to a position where it can see and reach the Sniper Lord (assuming Havocs clear the remaining Las Fangs); Chaos Lord can charge him if needs be, and Heretacs are blocking Hellblasters from getting a double tap on the LR. Terminators and Raptors drop on the Plasma Fangs, to waste them this turn (she’s not got the CP for her Rune Priest to let them get free shots) and kill her Engineer Infiltrators next turn. Noise Marines are now disengaged, with both Blastmasters and a Doom Siren intact, and a prescience caster next to them.
It’s not a tournament with accumulating VP tally, so opponent concedes.
Lessons I learned:
- stompy vehicle jamboree is hella risky, one of them goes bang and things could go south quickly. Nothing wrong with throwing a redundant transport in there to add another potential explosion
- Devastation Battery is formidable
- LR Proteus, with appropriate support, is now at the very least an interesting gimmick - nobody expects it to have heavy Flamers and a Power Sword
- Long Fangs are a hard counter to a lot of our endurance buffs and must be taken seriously
- Spend at least 10% of your army budget on anchoring your flanks
- Don’t forget your pistols
- If you can choose first turn, look carefully at the table and your mission and your opponent’s list
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/09/04 16:51:10
- LR Proteus, with appropriate support, is now at the very least an interesting gimmick - nobody expects it to have heavy Flamers and a Power Sword
Why the Proteus? I am not sure where the gimmick comes in, unless something has changed recently that I'm unaware of. Without an invulnerable save or POTMS it seems pretty bad even for a land raider.
The Achilles at least gets an invulnerable, but then it's Spartan points. And the spartan has POTMS and steel behemoth.
- LR Proteus, with appropriate support, is now at the very least an interesting gimmick - nobody expects it to have heavy Flamers and a Power Sword
Why the Proteus? I am not sure where the gimmick comes in, unless something has changed recently that I'm unaware of. Without an invulnerable save or POTMS it seems pretty bad even for a land raider.
The Achilles at least gets an invulnerable, but then it's Spartan points. And the spartan has POTMS and steel behemoth.
I spent a long time making a land Raider with all organic guns and I like setting things on fire
The gimmick is in warptiming it into the enemy’s face and daring them to charge it
dominuschao wrote: Loved the part where the champs threw down 12 pf attacks. I live for that type of gak honestly
As a mostly khornate that still has a Berzerker champion with bosspole rewarded to him because he bashed up singularily a c'tan, this is expected result.
Nothing can stand against a khornate berzerker champion that casts fist.
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
Any thoughts for CSMs on how to counter prophets of flesh Talos and grotesque spam? I just can't seem to put those units down if anyone has some good thoughts on the matter.
Cacaphony/Vets Havocs, Oblits. Liberal application of Butcher Cannons/Sicarans.
BlaxicanX wrote: A young business man named Tom Kirby, who was a pupil of mine until he turned greedy, helped the capitalists hunt down and destroy the wargamers. He betrayed and murdered Games Workshop.
What is the current thoughts on the Sicaran? I never really see them mentioned, but the weapon/platform don't seem too bad. Lots of shots on the accellerator cannon and gets the bonus against fly while still being good against other units.
buddha wrote: Any thoughts for CSMs on how to counter prophets of flesh Talos and grotesque spam? I just can't seem to put those units down if anyone has some good thoughts on the matter.
I hate the Talos, it's just abysmal to play against. A regular opponent has gotten very good using them to defend against Bloodletter Bombs.
My strategy against them is cheap cc units. Tie them up with Cultists or smack them down with Helbrutes and Lasher Tendrils. The point is to make sure they are not hitting more valuable units.
My backup strategy is mortal wounds. Black Legion Chainlords with Flames of Spite and Ghorivex's Teeth get 2 MW on each 6+ to wound. Use Prescience to increase your odds.
My other backup strategy is to move away. Talos get used like Heavy Infantry, there's usually a reason why they are where they are on the board. Just keeping your distance can pull them out of position.
Eldarain wrote: Cacaphony/Vets Havocs, Oblits. Liberal application of Butcher Cannons/Sicarans.
You know you are in the csm tactica thread when the standard answer is: solve issue with liberal ammount of Ac or obliterators.
It's seems like the AC is the kalaschnikow of csm.
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
Did anyone realize that a helbrute with a power scourge and hateful assault now has 9 attacks at S8 AP-2 D2, or 12 with two power scourges ? The helbrute has two melee weapons because GW some time ago ruled that every model is equipped with a basic melee weapon. Which means one additional attack, the helbrute has two melee weapons, plus one for hateful assault.
p5freak wrote: Did anyone realize that a helbrute with a power scourge and hateful assault now has 9 attacks at S8 AP-2 D2, or 12 with two power scourges ? The helbrute has two melee weapons because GW some time ago ruled that every model is equipped with a basic melee weapon. Which means one additional attack, the helbrute has two melee weapons, plus one for hateful assault.
Is this actually accurate? The two melee weapons thing?
So contemptors only need one fist to get a bonus attack, and so the second fist might as well always be a butcher cannon?
BRB Update 1.4
Page 183 – Choose Melee Weapon
Change the second sentence to read:
‘In addition to their other weapons, all models are
assumed to be equipped with a close combat weapon,
which has the following profile:’
Niiru wrote: What is the current thoughts on the Sicaran? I never really see them mentioned, but the weapon/platform don't seem too bad. Lots of shots on the accellerator cannon and gets the bonus against fly while still being good against other units.
It looks ok but it's not worth taking atm.. Unless you know you'll face multiple flyers maybe. I've tried mine many times. High cost average save and no invuln makes it deceptively fragile. Second the AAC is just such an unreliable weapon. Wardogs are better simply due to 5++.
Niiru wrote: What is the current thoughts on the Sicaran? I never really see them mentioned, but the weapon/platform don't seem too bad. Lots of shots on the accellerator cannon and gets the bonus against fly while still being good against other units.
It looks ok but it's not worth taking atm.. Unless you know you'll face multiple flyers maybe. I've tried mine many times. High cost average save and no invuln makes it deceptively fragile. Second the AAC is just such an unreliable weapon. Wardogs are better simply due to 5++.
Wardogs? Don't think chaos gets those, unless I missed them in the book
buddha wrote: Any thoughts for CSMs on how to counter prophets of flesh Talos and grotesque spam? I just can't seem to put those units down if anyone has some good thoughts on the matter.
So from a competitive standpoint, ahriman and friends = death hex on grots -> 6+ save -> butcher cannons, lord discordant or pick your poison = many dead grots. You need to use the +2 to cast and ahriman to try to prevent the deny. Do this two turns and you have to deal with many less grots...
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/09/05 04:46:44
