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mrtomski wrote:

 lindsay40k wrote:
Yeah, Defiler really feels like king of the DE right now, Decimators don’t seem to have any real niche atm. Anything good they can do is overwhelmingly reliant on getting T1.

I think for the points defliers are pretty good, but it's a challenge to get them into combat, and without any rerolls you are hitting on 4s which is painful.

They are also big clunky models which tend to get in the way.

I had been running them as slaanesh, running one up, putting a 5++ on it and popping smoke... that combo makes one very very hard to take down.

Honestly they felt they make thier point more by absorbing fire power then dealing damage, although stats wise they should be destroying big stuff in melee.

I like the idea of a decimator fire base, but from what I've seen recently they would be toast T1 as t7 5++ and 8w is just not enough.

run lord disco and a Dp and poof you hit at 3+ rerolling 1's ,solid list choices for ETC.

 blackmage wrote:

mrtomski wrote:

 lindsay40k wrote:
Yeah, Defiler really feels like king of the DE right now, Decimators don’t seem to have any real niche atm. Anything good they can do is overwhelmingly reliant on getting T1.

I think for the points defliers are pretty good, but it's a challenge to get them into combat, and without any rerolls you are hitting on 4s which is painful.

They are also big clunky models which tend to get in the way.

I had been running them as slaanesh, running one up, putting a 5++ on it and popping smoke... that combo makes one very very hard to take down.

Honestly they felt they make thier point more by absorbing fire power then dealing damage, although stats wise they should be destroying big stuff in melee.

I like the idea of a decimator fire base, but from what I've seen recently they would be toast T1 as t7 5++ and 8w is just not enough.

run lord disco and a Dp and poof you hit at 3+ rerolling 1's ,solid list choices for ETC.

Assuming that my list already contains a lord disco and a prince, does that mean a defiler actually becomes a decent choice? I only ever remember them being a pretty sub-par option, would be interesting if they are now decent. What if they were compared to other options though, such as a maulerfiend or one of the dreadnoughts like a contemptor.

I do run 2 discordants and a prince, the issue is your discordants tend to pull ahead of the defliers who only move 8 (10 with the soul forge pack) vs 14-16 of the discordants.

Defilers are the best DE for close combat on paper excepting the discordant. Something like 142 points, with the auto cannons and flail. They get 5 s16 d6d and 3 s12 3d attacks in that setup, which will murder any heavy target if you pop deamon forge.

Having 14 wounds is also a big advantage in my book and they degrade in a decent way.

Niiru wrote:

 blackmage wrote:

mrtomski wrote:

 lindsay40k wrote:
Yeah, Defiler really feels like king of the DE right now, Decimators don’t seem to have any real niche atm. Anything good they can do is overwhelmingly reliant on getting T1.

I think for the points defliers are pretty good, but it's a challenge to get them into combat, and without any rerolls you are hitting on 4s which is painful.

They are also big clunky models which tend to get in the way.

I had been running them as slaanesh, running one up, putting a 5++ on it and popping smoke... that combo makes one very very hard to take down.

Honestly they felt they make thier point more by absorbing fire power then dealing damage, although stats wise they should be destroying big stuff in melee.

I like the idea of a decimator fire base, but from what I've seen recently they would be toast T1 as t7 5++ and 8w is just not enough.

run lord disco and a Dp and poof you hit at 3+ rerolling 1's ,solid list choices for ETC.

Assuming that my list already contains a lord disco and a prince, does that mean a defiler actually becomes a decent choice? I only ever remember them being a pretty sub-par option, would be interesting if they are now decent. What if they were compared to other options though, such as a maulerfiend or one of the dreadnoughts like a contemptor.

The dakka Version costs 136.
And comes with enough bullets on it's own to get work done.
Nearby Lord and or Lord discordant and it becomes a disgusting bullethose.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

mrtomski wrote:
I do run 2 discordants and a prince, the issue is your discordants tend to pull ahead of the defliers who only move 8 (10 with the soul forge pack) vs 14-16 of the discordants.

Defilers are the best DE for close combat on paper excepting the discordant. Something like 142 points, with the auto cannons and flail. They get 5 s16 d6d and 3 s12 3d attacks in that setup, which will murder any heavy target if you pop deamon forge.

Having 14 wounds is also a big advantage in my book and they degrade in a decent way.

The thing to remember, sorcerer support is needed or DA, for melee imo.

Also on the decimator firebase.
If you have enough other threats they tend to get ignored somewhat.

I also feel that traits not applying hurts daemonengines more then BS4+ even.

If dakka defiler is havok launcher + reaper autocannon I'm not sure it's that great. I mean ok points wise I guess but not going to do a great deal of damage to anything.

I've come to the conclusion I'll drop defilers from my list (had 2) and try the obliterator bomb, which with vets and shoot twice I think will have more of an impact on the game than the defilers.

May also try a game with the defilers sat still shooting and see what the results are.

Is there any way to make abby advance and charge?

mrtomski wrote:
If dakka defiler is havok launcher + reaper autocannon I'm not sure it's that great. I mean ok points wise I guess but not going to do a great deal of damage to anything.

I've come to the conclusion I'll drop defilers from my list (had 2) and try the obliterator bomb, which with vets and shoot twice I think will have more of an impact on the game than the defilers.

May also try a game with the defilers sat still shooting and see what the results are.

Is there any way to make abby advance and charge?

Inbetween a reaper, bc and havoc launcher you get enough variety to deal significant enough damage.
Especially for the price.

On Abby, not to my knowledge.

Ok so changing the topic a bit.

Dark apostles... since I'm doubling down on black legion it makes sense to have one as a trusted war leader. I run a kytan so will use benediction of darkness to give him that sweet -1 T1.

Am I right in understanding that I'm then stuck with that one prayer for the rest of the game? Anyone running the apostles and getting good mileage out of them?

mrtomski wrote:
Ok so changing the topic a bit.

Dark apostles... since I'm doubling down on black legion it makes sense to have one as a trusted war leader. I run a kytan so will use benediction of darkness to give him that sweet -1 T1.

Am I right in understanding that I'm then stuck with that one prayer for the rest of the game? Anyone running the apostles and getting good mileage out of them?

Word Bearer here, trying to make them work for fluff.

Honestly, I’ve not had great results. I previously had them ride with Berzerkers & an EC and they were incredible. Now, they’re obligate footsloggers, and it seems that every time I use -1 to be hit, I’m facing an army that can easily ignore it - and, whilst the threat of rolling a one then CRR doing the same again is far, far more reliable than, say, Warptime, the danger of it happening makes me reluctant to go all in. Had it happen during a rumble with three SW Dreadnoughts where I really wanted the reroll aura, and honestly don’t think I’d have come out of that alive were it not for lucky vehicle explosions hurting them more than they hurt me.

There’s like three Chaplain characters who know two & say two Litanies, if we had something like that then I’d absolutely be well on board.

 lindsay40k wrote:

mrtomski wrote:
Ok so changing the topic a bit.

Dark apostles... since I'm doubling down on black legion it makes sense to have one as a trusted war leader. I run a kytan so will use benediction of darkness to give him that sweet -1 T1.

Am I right in understanding that I'm then stuck with that one prayer for the rest of the game? Anyone running the apostles and getting good mileage out of them?

Word Bearer here, trying to make them work for fluff.

Honestly, I’ve not had great results. I previously had them ride with Berzerkers & an EC and they were incredible. Now, they’re obligate footsloggers, and it seems that every time I use -1 to be hit, I’m facing an army that can easily ignore it - and, whilst the threat of rolling a one then CRR doing the same again is far, far more reliable than, say, Warptime, the danger of it happening makes me reluctant to go all in. Had it happen during a rumble with three SW Dreadnoughts where I really wanted the reroll aura, and honestly don’t think I’d have come out of that alive were it not for lucky vehicle explosions hurting them more than they hurt me.

There’s like three Chaplain characters who know two & say two Litanies, if we had something like that then I’d absolutely be well on board.

Insult to injury our apostles are one trick Ponys aaaannnd cost more.

TBF, Chaplains having no way to boost beyond a 3+ makes them much, much worse off

Paying 110 & budgeting a CP for it to have a 97% chance of successfully casting -1 to be hit on a LoW is at least a niche

Special character Chaplains are a blunt instrument, trying to throw down a couple of buffs but not reliable enough to build a plan around. A regular Chaplain is a disruptor, unrealisable but the opponent can’t ignore it

I feel that if they could change power (or just know more than one) or cast two they would be great.

Going to try one out.. I have a feeling they will get s points drop in chapter approved too.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I guess in my situation at least the 110 points potentially gives a few cp over the course of a game (black legion, trusted war leader)

orkswubwub wrote:

Spoiler:

 techsoldaten wrote:
Following up on Daemon Primarch lists, here's what I'm thinking about for the final list. Would love some feedback.

3 detachments, 2000 points. I'd like to add a Feculent Gnarlmaw but not sure where to trim. Most open to dropping the Sicaran but but I'm not sure what I'd replace it with.

My local meta is competitive and mostly consists of Ultramarines, Iron Hands, Dark Eldar and Imperial Knights. The lists giving me the most trouble right now are Triple Repulsors and Infiltrators / Intercessors.

I've done a little playtesting and found the results encouraging. Mortarion isn't getting into combat turn 1 but he and Magnus have been able to survive past turn 3 all 3 games. The Sicaran isn't doing much, feels like I need to commit to long-range shooting or objective grabbing. Also played a variant that swapped the Nurgle detachment for Disco Lords, could work but I felt starved for bodies. So maybe later.


++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Nurgle) ++

+ HQ +

Poxbringer: Balesword, Smite, Virulent Blessing

Poxbringer: Balesword, Miasma of Pestilence, Smite

+ Troops +

Nurglings
. 3x Nurgling Swarms: 3x Diseased claws and teeth

Nurglings
. 3x Nurgling Swarms: 3x Diseased claws and teeth

Plaguebearers: Daemonic Icon, Instrument of Chaos
. 21x Plaguebearer: 21x Plaguesword
. Plagueridden: Plaguesword

+ Elites +

Hellforged Sicaran: Combi-bolter, Heavy bolter, Infernal hunger, Nurgle, Twin accelerator autocannon
. Lascannons: 2x Lascannon

++ Supreme Command Detachment +1CP (Chaos - Thousand Sons) ++

+ HQ +

Ahriman: Black Staff of Ahriman, Frag & Krak grenades, Glamour of Tzeentch, Inferno Bolt Pistol, Smite, Tzeentch's Firestorm, Warptime

Daemon Prince of Tzeentch: Gaze of Fate, Infernal Gaze, Malefic talon, Malefic talon, Smite, Wings

Sorcerer on Disc of Tzeentch: Blades on Disc of Tzeentch, Combi-bolter, Death Hex, Diabolic Strength, Force stave, Frag & Krak grenades, Helm of the Third Eye, Smite

+ Lord of War +

Magnus the Red: Bolt of Change, Doombolt, Infernal Gateway, Prescience, Smite, The Blade of Magnus, Warlord

++ Super-Heavy Auxiliary Detachment (Chaos - Death Guard) ++

+ Lord of War +

Mortarion: 1. Miasma of Pestilence, 4. Blades of Putrefaction, 6. Curse of the Leper, Attendant's claws and teeth, Phosphex bombs, Silence, Smite, The Lantern

I'm surprised magnus lives until T3, I've run both Magnus and Morty before and it felt heavily reliant on who goes first typically against big gunlines... Not sure about the sicaran as it isn't in many comp lists and has no invul, but you do have target saturation. Since it is elite you can make it TSons and move it to the supreme command with ahriman and preserve your nurgle legion triat and access to CD Strats.

Thanks for the heads up. Completely forgot that a Supreme Command detachment can take an elites option, makes a big difference.

The Sicaran is mostly good for taking wounds off a target before Magnus or Mortarion charge, then killing tanks. I like it because opponents are mostly focused on shooting at the Primarchs, it doesn't get target priority until they are gone.

Possible dumb question inbound:
What is better 6 Terminators with Combi-plasma & Chain/Power axes and a Predator with Lascannons
OR 3 Slaanesh Obliterators?

I've been using Termies + Pred in my casual games against my sons' Marines, but now that they both got significant boosts, that combo isn't cutting the mustard. For the same points cost, I can get 3 Oblits that can drop in and shoot twice via Endless Cacophony.

It's more eggs in one basket, but considering my Pred rarely lasts past the first turn and my Termies tend to evaporate after they drop in, 3 Oblits might at least do more damage before disappearing. I'd get more bang for casting Prescience on them and using the shoot twice strat

Thoughts?

-

I'd not bother with the pred and instead would take a Vindicator.

Not Online!!! wrote:
I'd not bother with the pred and instead would take a Vindicator.

Hmmm. I like the T8 and nearly 60pt decrease compared to the 4Las Pred. But only 24" and D6 shots gives me concern.
It seems like I'd have to pour lots of resources into making that work. I was already using Blasphemous Machines to move the Pred out from behind LOS blocking terrain and using Prescience, so probably still would use those. But with D6 shots, I'm very likely to need to use the command Re-roll often to ensure the occasional 1 or 2 is rerolled for hopefully more shots.
The 24" also seems like it puts the Vindicare in the danger zone of being vaporized even faster, or worse, not getting range on an idea target on turn 1.

How do you mitigate these issues?

-

A single Vindicator feels like it falls under the category of unreliable but plausible threats. No big things want to find themselves within 24” of it.

You can easily throw Prescience and Warptime and BM and a CRR at the number of shots when some key target puts a foot wrong, and still come away with one hit that whiffs the Wound roll.

Strikes me that it’s a very bullet-magnetic distraction Carnifex that non-horde lists can’t afford to ignore.

 lindsay40k wrote:
Strikes me that it’s a very bullet-magnetic distraction Carnifex that non-horde lists can’t afford to ignore.

Which basically puts it on the nevermind list for me. As the ONLY vehicle in my list, it seems better just to drop it altogether. I needed the LasPred to plink as their TL/ML Ven Dreads in their back fields, but dropping it outright seems like a better option that playing "who can kill the others vehicles first"

-

 Galef wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
I'd not bother with the pred and instead would take a Vindicator.

Hmmm. I like the T8 and nearly 60pt decrease compared to the 4Las Pred. But only 24" and D6 shots gives me concern.
It seems like I'd have to pour lots of resources into making that work. I was already using Blasphemous Machines to move the Pred out from behind LOS blocking terrain and using Prescience, so probably still would use those. But with D6 shots, I'm very likely to need to use the command Re-roll often to ensure the occasional 1 or 2 is rerolled for hopefully more shots.
The 24" also seems like it puts the Vindicare in the danger zone of being vaporized even faster, or worse, not getting range on an idea target on turn 1.

How do you mitigate these issues?

-

Tbf my Vindicator does nor expect to survive, if he does he's like a assault gun cheap and hellishly dangerous.
Ergo he draws fire.
Altough i am also a wierdo that runs warpsmith, additionally if you want him to survive you can always use a da, or sorcerer.
Nearby Lord might also do well. However i am also on tables were terrain is abundant making the range less of and issue.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Galef wrote:

 lindsay40k wrote:
Strikes me that it’s a very bullet-magnetic distraction Carnifex that non-horde lists can’t afford to ignore.

Which basically puts it on the nevermind list for me. As the ONLY vehicle in my list, it seems better just to drop it altogether. I needed the LasPred to plink as their TL/ML Ven Dreads in their back fields, but dropping it outright seems like a better option that playing "who can kill the others vehicles first"

-

You could consider a defiler on dakka then.
The bc and reaper ac aren't to bad at AT duty.
Add in a lord or stratagem and you should be able to destroy obe or the other dread.
Self healing might also come in Handy.

I sometimes also run a Heldrake because it can move 30" and charge one of their Dreads to at least stop them from shooting for a turn. But then it always dies right after.

I'm hoping this tactic will eventually stop working for me and my boys learn how to screen their Dreads. They grasp the rules well enough, but they still haven't figured out how to "properly" deploy or play the mission IMO. We just finished a game in which I had to insist he shot at some on my Choas Marines on a 4VP objective even though they were far away and not an immediate threat. But because he killed them (at my insistence), he robbed me of those VPs which gave him the win.

Regarding the Deflier, considering my Chaos collection included models from every Legion and major warbands like Red Corsairs & Crimson Slaughter and is built to include "classic" models, getting a Defiler would seem logical. However it's stats just look HORRENDOUS since you want to move to take advantage of it's required melee stats, but it doesn't inherently ignore the penalty for moving and firing Heavies AND only starts with BS4+. So I'd be spending about the same points as a Pred and still almost never hitting. Hard Pass even in casual games, I'm afraid.

No, I think Oblits are the answer for now. 3 Slaanesh Oblti dropping in, firing at various targets, then firing again via the Strat seems like the way to go to neutralize threats. I'll just have to build my list so that nothing important is exposed turn 1

-

Is there a consensus on how to play against iron hands? I mean in bleeding edge competitive 40k, I'm not much into garage hammer (which is great btw!). If you are anticipating 3 repulsers with thunderfire cannon etc. Is it jeff vesels list plaguebearers and ahriman + friends list? As far as I can tell you won't be able to smite anything decent to death reliably and iron hands will heal back up. A lord disco will die on average (overkill) charging a repulser and/or a levi dread with the 4+ strat and rerolling hits and rerolls 1 of wound (not to mention any 'for the greater good' shananagins)... Not to mention most compteitive opponents aren't going to put the iron father out there to let you charge them in the first place (most savy opponents in larger tournies)...

Is it time to dig back out the 120 plaguebearer army with plague drones and a gnarlmaw? I think the plaguedrones are one of the few models that 'may' live the overwatch agains the Iron hands castle. I know the popular party line is 'play the objectives' but against a competent opponent they will be doing the same and the limitation of 'castling' for something that can move and fire heavy weapons (and fall back and shoot [repulser executioners[) is limited... Also most ITC has at most one 'magic box' and you can't afford to litter the table with ruins that allow you to charge without taking overwatch... Or even NOVA for example has very fixed setting of terrain.

I guess we will have to see what this weekend brings in terms of competitive meta but Chaos aren't exactly teaming with models that don't take overwatch on charge (sorry warp talons are awful in competitive, also see the negative to charge range...). I know mortal wounds are the popular answer but ahriman and friends just doesn't feel like enough and with the minus to charge blightlords and most DG feel unreliable... Finally primarchs and big guys do poorly against the -1 damage / half, but are further superceded by the fact that most lists that are either iron hands or built to beat iron hands will likely be min/maxed to destroy primarchs... I can see the silver lining for tau (maybe), orks, and Harlequin etc. but struggling a bit for chaos...

I feel a bit disheartened but also realize the dice haven't hit the table yet - any one have insight from playtesting buddies etc.?

It's entirely too much. They excel at everything that matters.

Seems like the Marine comeback is extreme vs chaos. But that can be said for chaos vs Eldar plane list. So far it seems like chasing tails situation atm eldarwin marine we win eldar kinda situation.

But if you make any of the classic good chaos ,tsons, demons etc list and play the missions mentality build around you can definitely try a narrow win.

Play your army play your str and try to min your weakness is important. I agree tha chaso is not in a good shape atm with all that Marine going around atm but it should balnce out more soon.

death guard for me have gain points atm and seem a more reliable option so back to defensive nurgle strat.

orkswubwub wrote:
Is there a consensus on how to play against iron hands?
tc.?

So Iron Hands are going to want to castle up around the Ironstone and Iron Father. The range of their abilities is 3” so they have to be right on top of the Repulsors. This is begging to be hit by the Linebreaker Bombardment stratagem from 3 Vindicators. You get around almost all their defenses and spread mortal wounds around everywhere.

What’s to keep the Repulsors from just starting the game separated and then coming together to kill a Vindicator on their turn? That would be 3 Chaos Knights with double thermal cannons. Those Knights will force IH to ball up around the characters for defense and the 3 Vindicators can take advantage of that.

3 double thermal cannon Knights and 3 Vindicators is 1566pts before missiles are added to the Knights. You can get a small battalion of Red Corsairs to fit in there for death hex and the 8 cp’s.

That stratagem is unlikely to kill character. They can turn unit next to character into bodyguard so wounds to character just kill few more troops

tneva82 wrote:
That stratagem is unlikely to kill character. They can turn unit next to character into bodyguard so wounds to character just kill few more troops

I think the real concern is the 24 inch range honestly. Also if you lose one vindicator you lose the ability to use the strat which is troublesome. Overall using just the thermals and the vindicators may be decent against IH but will be soft against any hordes. Not sure on the vindicator after its buff, skeptical due to no invul and the likely ongoing uptick in armies with anti-vehicle. Would have to play test it some.

Not convince on stratagem even if it were 60" range. Not a threat to character and with all the healing on ih you need to focus fire on 1 to kill. If you hurt multiples a little most/all damage gets healed anyway.

Thought necron scythe stratagem 'hat is similar on platform competive necrons have anyway but on second thought realised effect is minimal.

Could work its a lot of damage tbh and a strategy that can work.
Sure its not killing everything but seems a good solution if you want to build and go play it. I would try it . It would be a valid plan Against all castle armies .
Since you got the Knight element you can always try to play vs all castle armies. I believe it would be vital to go first or maybe if you find a way to protect your tanks maybe it can work more often.
It is not the best strat but can work vs castle armies.

Thing is you need to be able to finish multiple tanks then a turn. If you kill one and wound several you basically killed one and that's it. Killing multiple ih tanks is tough

I’m finishing some Silver Tower stuff and thinking about trying some Tzeentch Daemonkin. General idea is:

Tzeentch Daemons Battalion:
- Chariot Herald
- Changeling
- 9 Brimstone, 1 Blue
- 9 Brimstone, 1 Blue
- 9 Brimstone, 1 Blue

Thousand Sons Supreme Command:
- Ahriman
- DP
- DP
- Tzaangor Shaman

Word Bearers Spearhead
- Lord Discordant
- Master of Possession: Incursion / Cursed Earth / Infernal Power / Mutated Invigoration
- 2-3 Obliterators
- Defiler: Lascannons, Havoc Launcher
- Maulerfiend: Tendrils

Reinforcement Points: at least enough for 20+ Pink Horrors, 3 Flamers

The TS zoom up with the Herald. The LD walks up with the Maulerfiend, staying in range of the Defiler. The MoP and Changeling hang out between the DEs, and summon the Horrors, who get Flickering Flames. T2, the Obliterators land and get the same. A second summon may draw in Flamers, or the RPs may be used to cycle Horrors.

The MoP’s spells will depend upon what I’m facing. If there’s no psyker shutdown threat like World Eaters or Kronos, Incursion will be used for deeper insertion of Horrors. Not sure about WT & Relic. Also might switch Mauler for second Defiler kitted for combat.

So I played vs Iron Hands for the first time, and just got completely dabbed on, and he didnt even bring an overly cheesy list. What would be good counter units to iron hands gunline/vehicle heavy lists? I found that he was easily able to bring both anti infantry and anti armor in spades, so I dont think leaning heavy into one or the other would work. Would swapping to my demon army work better? Nurgle might stand a chance and khorne could blow a chunk in his army from a letter bomb.