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Oblits have a good chance of killing an IH vehicle. 18 shots hitting on 3s, +1 to wound with votlw, and endless cacophony. Add a lord for re-roll 1s and/or a sorcerer for prescience +1 to hit. But thats very expensive. Bloodletter bomb would need to charge something which has not many shots, because IH can overwatch on 4+. And then pile in to tie up as many vehicles as possible.

 vaklor4 wrote:
So I played vs Iron Hands for the first time, and just got completely dabbed on, and he didnt even bring an overly cheesy list. What would be good counter units to iron hands gunline/vehicle heavy lists? I found that he was easily able to bring both anti infantry and anti armor in spades, so I dont think leaning heavy into one or the other would work. Would swapping to my demon army work better? Nurgle might stand a chance and khorne could blow a chunk in his army from a letter bomb.

Can you tell us a little more about the list you faced?

Everyone is adjusting to NuMarines, it's easier to offer advice when there's an example to work from.

My local meta is heavy with Ultramarines, Dark Eldar and Imperial Knights. I don't get to play against IH very often, but I'd like to be prepared when I do.

It had a few MSU of tacs, 3 warsuits, 3 razorbacks, 3 thunderfires and 3 predators, along with Iron Father and some techmarines. It wasnt a mega tryhard list but with going first even with my entire army in cover he blew me away by turn 2, with minimal casualties on his end.

 vaklor4 wrote:
It had a few MSU of tacs, 3 warsuits, 3 razorbacks, 3 thunderfires and 3 predators, along with Iron Father and some techmarines. It wasnt a mega tryhard list but with going first even with my entire army in cover he blew me away by turn 2, with minimal casualties on his end.

So no Primaris, Repulsors or Infiltrators. Check. Were those Assault Cannon razorbacks? Were those laspreds?

Iron Hands are weird, with the Overwatch and the Damage Table rules. Charges are more lethal, tanks can't be bracketed as easily. You really need to destroy a target before you move onto the next.

I have 2 lists that have done well against NuMarines: Black Legion gunline and Daemon Primarchs. The gunline beats them with massed lascannons from range, the Daemon Primarchs win by assaulting before they activate the Tactical doctrine. Without having seen your list, some long range anti-tank firepower would help you beat his tanks. Terminators and Warp Talons would help you deal with his MSU Tacticals.

Of course, those might be good options for fighting this list, maybe not Iron Hands in general.

Yeah, assault cannon razors, and it was 2 cannon preds and a single las pred, who was getting the big buffs. And target selection wasnt a factor, I was playing an assault oriented list and he went first, so by the end of his second shooting phase i barely made it into close combat and he had killed most of my force. Despite my big VP lead, he would just wipe up and win by turn 3.

An influx of heavy overwatch suggests assault-based lists are really going to benefit from a bunch of Warp Talons in a Host Raptorial

Bit of a one-trick pony

Ironic that, whilst immune to overwatch, they can still be Auspexed into a greasy puddle, so I guess bring them in twos or threes

I never fought IH, but I have beaten NuMarines multiple times. The best counters for them are 2 kind of lists:

1. daemon engines lists, with many vehicls, like 4/5 Engines and 2 rhinos, the reason because invulnerables are the only thing that still works against them and all the attacks have multiple damage, having no screen, a first turn charge with warp time can hurt a lot and castles are somehow vulnerable to exploding vehicles. Ofc going first is pivotal.

2. Alpha legion infantry gunlines. With the itc style we can hide stuff avoiding a first turn tabling, playing infantry we can make the ubiquitous repulsors/executioners less effective with no vehicles to one shot.

The most important thing of all are Obliterators, facing big expensive units we are sure they will repay themselves, when they come down they eliminate all that threats them (they can kill 2 replusors with a bit of luck) and then is just easy win, since troop shooting can't kill them.

@techsoldaten tell us about your Black Legion gunline

The wall of dakka they put out worries me in investing in too many T7 targets. The huge amount ot S4 attacks back in melee seem offputting too.

I can attest, IH will ruin a demon engine list. Even infantry guns like the Assault Cannon razorbacks will force you into using your 5+ invuln.

I know from agonizing experience.

My first reaction would've been massed fodder, but after the cultists nerf i doubt they make the cut, so yeah AL gunline might do the trick.

I found that Cultists just dont do the trick umless you have Abbadon or a Iron Warriors warlord nearby for the morale, in terms of being anything except objective holders. For their points they do basically nothing offensicely and defensively, so theyre literally just walking wounds. It saddens me how often ive souped demons just for some decent troops.

 vaklor4 wrote:
I found that Cultists just dont do the trick umless you have Abbadon or a Iron Warriors warlord nearby for the morale, in terms of being anything except objective holders. For their points they do basically nothing offensicely and defensively, so theyre literally just walking wounds. It saddens me how often ive souped demons just for some decent troops.

you could go for red corsair fodder?
But that is imo only better because you get more CP because RC.

I play RC the CP is nice and RC is one of the better legion choices, but Cultists in general are just in a bad spot atm, a stark contrast to their troop slot domination the last 2 years

 vaklor4 wrote:
Yeah, assault cannon razors, and it was 2 cannon preds and a single las pred, who was getting the big buffs. And target selection wasnt a factor, I was playing an assault oriented list and he went first, so by the end of his second shooting phase i barely made it into close combat and he had killed most of my force. Despite my big VP lead, he would just wipe up and win by turn 3.

That was similar to my first experience playing Ultramarines. I had Obliterators and Bloodletters in deep strike, he took out most of my CSMs, Cultists, HQs and Dreadnoughts first turn with Triple Redemptors.

What scares me about your experience is he didn't bring Primaris, which would have made things worse with better range and additional negative AP modifiers.

While I'm sure it's possible to optimize against Iron Hands, I'm not sure there's a Chaos TAAC list that works against all NuMarine armies (not to mention to other factions.)

 DarklyDreaming wrote:
I never fought IH, but I have beaten NuMarines multiple times. The best counters for them are 2 kind of lists:

1. daemon engines lists, with many vehicls, like 4/5 Engines and 2 rhinos, the reason because invulnerables are the only thing that still works against them and all the attacks have multiple damage, having no screen, a first turn charge with warp time can hurt a lot and castles are somehow vulnerable to exploding vehicles. Ofc going first is pivotal.

2. Alpha legion infantry gunlines. With the itc style we can hide stuff avoiding a first turn tabling, playing infantry we can make the ubiquitous repulsors/executioners less effective with no vehicles to one shot.

The most important thing of all are Obliterators, facing big expensive units we are sure they will repay themselves, when they come down they eliminate all that threats them (they can kill 2 replusors with a bit of luck) and then is just easy win, since troop shooting can't kill them.

@techsoldaten tell us about your Black Legion gunline

I'll do you one better. There's 5 lists I've used in 10 games versus NuMarines. Here are 4 of them, I'll talk a little about why each one does or does not work.

Bloodletter Bomb - Does Not Work


Tried this list against NuMarines several times. In one game, he wiped out most of my army before deep strikers arrived. In another game, he used Drop Pods to deny deep strike, neutralizing the Bloodletters and ensuring the Obliterators only had poor targets.

Black Legion Gunline - Works


This list works because it has 27 lascannons with rerolls to hit. It's the same gunline I have played most of 8th edition, but with more lascannons. Most of the army deploys on my table edge within Abaddon's reroll bubble. The Cultists screen everything else and Abaddon, the DP and the Sorcerer are 'beatsticks' to deal with anything that gets close.

It can put down Repulsors, Thunderfire Cannons, Infiltrators, etc immediately and outranges Blot Rifles, forcing Intercessors and other Marines to get in close to fight. In later turns, the lascannons snipe enemy units from a distance.


Black Legion Gunline - Scorpius - Works


This list is a variant of the Black Legion gunline. It works because it has 18D3 multi-launcher shots each turn with indirect fire and rerolls from Abaddon.

There are enough lascannons to destroy a couple Repulsors turn one, but what really matters is the missiles. On average, the multilaunchers are doing enough damage to kill about 15 Primaris per turn. Since your opponent can't draw line of site to them, he has to march up the board a couple turns with nothing to shoot at.

Also, this list features a Chainsorcerer. Starting to understand why this guy matters, he's not what anyone expects from a Sorcerer. He's not the Warlord but gets Flames of Spite through Council of Traitors. No one expects any Sorcerer to go full close combat and dish tons of mortal wounds, which can really screw up an opponent's attack.

Daemon Primarchs - Playtesting, Seems to Work


I've been playtesting this list and it seems to work. The reason it works is because Magnus and Mortarion can get into close combat before the Tactical Doctrine kicks in, putting your opponent off-balance and giving you opportunities to disrupt his forces.

In 2 games versus NuMarines, I've found the Sicaran gets ignored until at least one Primarch is dead. That's kind of a big deal, your opponent will have to deal with long-distance shooting while dealing with the Nurgle infantry.

 vaklor4 wrote:
I play RC the CP is nice and RC is one of the better legion choices, but Cultists in general are just in a bad spot atm, a stark contrast to their troop slot domination the last 2 years

RC fodder as in blobs of marines instead.

Do big blocks of marines actually work? In my experience they suffer severe morale issues, forcing me to pay the CP to either regen or at least become morale immune right off the bat.

Thank you for the lists!
Maybe that many las cannons is too much but I see where you are getting at, if we spam havocs with las and autocannons, we can play on the range, having the oblits in AiP gives us a lot of protection first turn, I'm sure going full elite is the best way.

Having cultists as troops and then only havocs, plague marines obli and maybe possessed means we have an elite easy to hide and that requires the same weapons to be killed, with R5 and or 5++ means we are somehow resistent to plasma, bolters and still a waste for las cannons.

 vaklor4 wrote:
Do big blocks of marines actually work? In my experience they suffer severe morale issues, forcing me to pay the CP to either regen or at least become morale immune right off the bat.

Only if you play Word Bearers. The Community tactica article told me they are incredibly resistant to the effects of morale

 Eldarain wrote:

 vaklor4 wrote:
Do big blocks of marines actually work? In my experience they suffer severe morale issues, forcing me to pay the CP to either regen or at least become morale immune right off the bat.

Only if you play Word Bearers. The Community tactica article told me they are incredibly resistant to the effects of morale

Quite right!

-10 to your leadership test - but you get to reroll! Forge the narrative

 vaklor4 wrote:
Do big blocks of marines actually work? In my experience they suffer severe morale issues, forcing me to pay the CP to either regen or at least become morale immune right off the bat.

Depends on how big.
Weapons max out at 10, so no reason to go bigger.
Also with their recycling that is an ok move.
That said it might work against the nu marines via annoyment.
However the ap -1 bolter doctrine has atleast for my list put an end.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 NurglesR0T wrote:

 Eldarain wrote:

 vaklor4 wrote:
Do big blocks of marines actually work? In my experience they suffer severe morale issues, forcing me to pay the CP to either regen or at least become morale immune right off the bat.

Only if you play Word Bearers. The Community tactica article told me they are incredibly resistant to the effects of morale

Quite right!

-10 to your leadership test - but you get to reroll! Forge the narrative

Most resistent are those with the automorale stratagem, ergo the RC, because so much cp.

Yeah in my experience cultists are all but worthless against Nu-marines due to the high volume of fire guns and ability to basically always have enough AP to negate their saves. Only success ive found is by giving my cultists a 5++, either by noctolith crown, tzeentch psyker or dark apostle.

I finally got the rest of the Dark Vengeance CSM, and I think that I'm going to organize four of them and the Aspiring Champion model into a Chosen unit (though I might later have the one with the rhino helmet be a Chaos Lord instead). That one will be armed with a bolt pistol and powerfist (I can always let him use the boltgun instead that he's carrying, if points allow for it). The one with the power axe will also be armed with a bolt pistol (same deal with his boltgun strapped to the back), as will the Marine with the power maul. The one with two lightning claws will be the Champion. I'm still debating about whether to have the two Marines just armed with boltguns to also be Chosen or just be regular CSM.

All that being said, the Chosen themselves don't strike me as that much more powerful than normal CSM, so I might end up having the ones with melee weapons end up being lords/sorcerers/CSM champions. Are Chosen worth the points?

 ArcaneHorror wrote:
I finally got the rest of the Dark Vengeance CSM, and I think that I'm going to organize four of them and the Aspiring Champion model into a Chosen unit (though I might later have the one with the rhino helmet be a Chaos Lord instead). That one will be armed with a bolt pistol and powerfist (I can always let him use the boltgun instead that he's carrying, if points allow for it). The one with the power axe will also be armed with a bolt pistol (same deal with his boltgun strapped to the back), as will the Marine with the power maul. The one with two lightning claws will be the Champion. I'm still debating about whether to have the two Marines just armed with boltguns to also be Chosen or just be regular CSM.

All that being said, the Chosen themselves don't strike me as that much more powerful than normal CSM, so I might end up having the ones with melee weapons end up being lords/sorcerers/CSM champions. Are Chosen worth the points?

I'm one of the few people that thinks they are. I've done squads of 6 with all Combi-Bolters and a Chaincannon, popping out of a Termite. It has been pretty excellent, and I've stuck Greater Possessed as just Characters to run and charge as a distraction as they're cheap enough to do that.

Optimized Chosen are solid for sure. If someone who gives a gak puts their hand up next time we get updatee they should design around Chosen being our baseline choice.

(Also rumor has it we're still gonna get gak on during this Psychic Awakening nonsense. No army wide traits etc)

 Eldarain wrote:
If someone who gives a gak puts their hand up next time we get updatee they should design around Chosen being our baseline choice.

This is what I've been saying like a broken record. Let the base Vanilla codex handle renegades. A CSM codex should be around the Legions.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Eldarain wrote:
If someone who gives a gak puts their hand up next time we get updatee they should design around Chosen being our baseline choice.

This is what I've been saying like a broken record. Let the base Vanilla codex handle renegades. A CSM codex should be around the Legions.

that or put out a index Astartes article in whtie dwarf that provides rules for chaos renegade warbands that hybridizes codex marines and codex chaos space marines.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Eldarain wrote:
If someone who gives a gak puts their hand up next time we get updatee they should design around Chosen being our baseline choice.

This is what I've been saying like a broken record. Let the base Vanilla codex handle renegades. A CSM codex should be around the Legions.

no. Optimally it would be a seperate supplement dealing with them.
However i for one have had enough of 8th edition books.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

BrianDavion wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Eldarain wrote:
If someone who gives a gak puts their hand up next time we get updatee they should design around Chosen being our baseline choice.

This is what I've been saying like a broken record. Let the base Vanilla codex handle renegades. A CSM codex should be around the Legions.

that or put out a index Astartes article in whtie dwarf that provides rules for chaos renegade warbands that hybridizes codex marines and codex chaos space marines.

Online. Not white dwarf.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ArcaneHorror wrote:
I finally got the rest of the Dark Vengeance CSM, and I think that I'm going to organize four of them and the Aspiring Champion model into a Chosen unit (though I might later have the one with the rhino helmet be a Chaos Lord instead). That one will be armed with a bolt pistol and powerfist (I can always let him use the boltgun instead that he's carrying, if points allow for it). The one with the power axe will also be armed with a bolt pistol (same deal with his boltgun strapped to the back), as will the Marine with the power maul. The one with two lightning claws will be the Champion. I'm still debating about whether to have the two Marines just armed with boltguns to also be Chosen or just be regular CSM.

All that being said, the Chosen themselves don't strike me as that much more powerful than normal CSM, so I might end up having the ones with melee weapons end up being lords/sorcerers/CSM champions. Are Chosen worth the points?

1ppm for 1 attack and more equipment and i believe a bit morale.
Tbh. if they were troops they'd be more liked i rekon. As elites they are kinda questionable.
I do like my CB squad.

Wouldn't making Chosen troops do a better job of allowing pure-VOTL Legions, Legions who've recruited since, and renegades all in one book?

CSM would go extinct if Chosen were in the troop slot. Maybe that's a good thing.