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ALCC havocs can move 9" during deployment with forward operatives. Get them into cover and they are -1 to hit at 12"+. Make them nurgle, and cast miasma of pestilence on them for -1 to hit, but this means no endless cacophony, and you need first turn. A DA can pray benediction of darkness on them for -1 to hit with ranged weapons, but he needs to be within 6" of them, it works before the battle round begins, and it doesnt work with forward operatives, unless you do that on the DA as well.
Question, since i saw that plastic contemptors were now available and surely are easily converted.
Is the hellforged Contemptor worth it with a kheres assault cannon?
(mostly curios due to the fact that the difference between a Butcher cannon isn't that far.)
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
p5freak wrote: I say no. The 24" range of a kheres AC is not good, and its overcosted, 20 pts. sounds reasonable.
Even though it is heavy 6 s7? I mean that is a better assault cannon if anything.
Also why is a twin ac 10 pts more expensive then a Butcher?
Sometimes i wonder if the rule Team is even trying.
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
you can keep them out of los and then move and shoot, they have no minus to move and shoot heavy weapons, for range... well that can be a issue but hardly you dont have any target at 30" or mean the opponent gave you most of the objective cause he should then be sitting deep in his deployment zone
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Not Online!!! wrote: Question, since i saw that plastic contemptors were now available and surely are easily converted.
Is the hellforged Contemptor worth it with a kheres assault cannon?
(mostly curios due to the fact that the difference between a Butcher cannon isn't that far.)
best weapons are butcher cannons or C beam cannons, the difference is range 36" and 24" is a lot, you can avoid a 1st turn keres, hardly you can avoid a butcher, and d2 makes lot of difference too.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/08/14 11:19:33
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saint_red wrote: Personally I am really struggling to see how this CW build is going to be effective but try it out and let us know how it goes.
Regarding CC havocs, how are you protecting them T1 and getting them into range? Aside from proxying them in a casual game I haven't had much experience with them. My impression is that they are too fragile and hard to make work on T1.
They’re not affected by moving and shooting, so deploy them behind a wall. Or deploy them in a Rhino. If you’ve taken a bunch of them, may as well make them a Devastation Battery and gain access to shoot in T1 if your opponent goes first.
I gather grav-weapons have been improved. So, Noctolith Crown’s looking even nicer. Even gives Poxwalkers and Brimstone Horrors a 5++.
saint_red wrote: Personally I am really struggling to see how this CW build is going to be effective but try it out and let us know how it goes.
Regarding CC havocs, how are you protecting them T1 and getting them into range? Aside from proxying them in a casual game I haven't had much experience with them. My impression is that they are too fragile and hard to make work on T1.
They’re not affected by moving and shooting, so deploy them behind a wall. Or deploy them in a Rhino. If you’ve taken a bunch of them, may as well make them a Devastation Battery and gain access to shoot in T1 if your opponent goes first.
I gather grav-weapons have been improved. So, Noctolith Crown’s looking even nicer. Even gives Poxwalkers and Brimstone Horrors a 5++.
but why bring a 100pts piece of terrain.
When you can bring a knight with a 5++ aura?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
blackmage wrote: you can keep them out of los and then move and shoot, they have no minus to move and shoot heavy weapons, for range... well that can be a issue but hardly you dont have any target at 30" or mean the opponent gave you most of the objective cause he should then be sitting deep in his deployment zone
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Not Online!!! wrote: Question, since i saw that plastic contemptors were now available and surely are easily converted.
Is the hellforged Contemptor worth it with a kheres assault cannon?
(mostly curios due to the fact that the difference between a Butcher cannon isn't that far.)
best weapons are butcher cannons or C beam cannons, the difference is range 36" and 24" is a lot, you can avoid a 1st turn keres, hardly you can avoid a butcher, and d2 makes lot of difference too.
Well then, time to gather Kitbash pieces.
Altough it is sad that i can't throw a Havoc launcher on it.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/08/14 12:33:53
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
p5freak wrote: I say no. The 24" range of a kheres AC is not good, and its overcosted, 20 pts. sounds reasonable.
Even though it is heavy 6 s7? I mean that is a better assault cannon if anything.
Also why is a twin ac 10 pts more expensive then a Butcher?
Sometimes i wonder if the rule Team is even trying.
What good is S7 and 6 shots when you are out of range ? Twin AC is 30 because its 48", a little overcosted as well, should be 25.
blackmage wrote:you can keep them out of los and then move and shoot, they have no minus to move and shoot heavy weapons, for range... well that can be a issue but hardly you dont have any target at 30" or mean the opponent gave you most of the objective cause he should then be sitting deep in his deployment zone
Are you talking about hellforged contemptors ? They do suffer the minus to hit when moving and shooting heavy weapons.
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p5freak wrote: I say no. The 24" range of a kheres AC is not good, and its overcosted, 20 pts. sounds reasonable.
Even though it is heavy 6 s7? I mean that is a better assault cannon if anything.
Also why is a twin ac 10 pts more expensive then a Butcher?
Sometimes i wonder if the rule Team is even trying.
What good is S7 and 6 shots when you are out of range ? Twin AC is 30 because its 48", a little overcosted as well, should be 25.
blackmage wrote:you can keep them out of los and then move and shoot, they have no minus to move and shoot heavy weapons, for range... well that can be a issue but hardly you dont have any target at 30" or mean the opponent gave you most of the objective cause he should then be sitting deep in his deployment zone
Are you talking about hellforged contemptors ? They do suffer the minus to hit when moving and shooting heavy weapons.
The twin AC is more expensive then the better Butcher cannon.
I mean common, that is stupid.
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
Still not sure it's worth it... D3 mortal wounds maybe once or twice a turn... that's assuming your warlord doesn't get focused down early on for being in the middle of all the enemies. Maybe. Worth trying at least! Seems like there might be more reliable relics though.
Its gonna be a lot more than once or twice.
Hmmmm well, I don't see how. In an ideal world, you'd be trying to move over units in your movement, then psychic, then charge phases. (not counting falling back, as that's just your movement). So that's only 3 chances to do it per turn, with a 50/50 chance of pulling it off, so when I say "once or twice" I'm literally correct as the actual chance is going to be 1.5x per turn. So it'll be, on average, 3 mortals wounds per turn, IF you manage to pull off a flyover in all three of those phases.
Now you might be thinking that you have a long movement, and that you could move over 2 or 3 units with each of your movement... but I'm saying that it might be hard enough to even manage to move over a single unit in each of your phases. The opponent has to leave big enough gaps for your guy to land, so he can either bunch his units up to stop him entirely, or leave big enough gaps that you can only reach one at a time.
I suspect that getting 3 mortal wounds per turn is likely your best outcome, unless you're against an opponent who doesn't know how to react to it and leaves enough space for you to leapfrog your way across the board every turn.
But again, i've not tried this, it might well work better than expected. Almost certainly it will work better vs some armies than others. Worth trying it and reporting back to us for sure.
blackmage wrote:you can keep them out of los and then move and shoot, they have no minus to move and shoot heavy weapons, for range... well that can be a issue but hardly you dont have any target at 30" or mean the opponent gave you most of the objective cause he should then be sitting deep in his deployment zone
Are you talking about hellforged contemptors ? They do suffer the minus to hit when moving and shooting heavy weapons.
Pretty sure he was talking about Havocs.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/08/14 17:43:00
The twin AC is more expensive then the better Butcher cannon.
I mean common, that is stupid.
Butcher cannon is 36" S8 AP-1 D2, twin AC is 48" S7 AP-1 D2. Yes, twin AC is overcosted. Should be 25 as well.
12" range is pretty worthless over 24" or more though.
Also don't forget the morale debuff the Butcher ac generates.
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
For what it is worth I use the butchers on my lev dread and they are really good. Don’t underestimate the -2 morale. It is really helpful against most enemies and well worth the slightly less range. (Plus the strength 8 is a wide margin better than 7)
Just a list I'm considering making. Not competitive, but I think it'll be fun to collect, build and play with.
Flamestorm pred is basically built to guard the dreads and prevent them being tarpitted, because for 1CP it can shoot into combat and do 4D6 flamer hits to the chaff.
I went for autocannons on the Discos instead of my usual baleflamer, because they will have +1 to hit along with the reroll of 1's from Syll'eske (I believe this works anyway), so the autocannon if it's fired will probably do some work. Though they'll be advancing anyway, so maybe baleflamer is better... but it does save me 40 points. Not sure on this yet. But I'd have to free up 40 points somewhere if I change it.
I went for the ectoplasma on contemptors because I wanted them as mobile threats, and the soulburners are expensive. Also as they get to reroll all hits as purge (if I manage to focus fire decently) they should be fairly safe from overheating. I could make them even cheaper with bolters, but not sure that's worthwhile?
Also no relics listed. Flamers will be deepstruck (deepstriked?) for 1CP, and the Prince will have Skullreaver. Beyond that I'm not sure.
It's just the movement and charge phases. I assume you included psychic because of warptime? Yeh, no, won't work. The rule specifies phases.
Edit: Which means it also won't work when falling back. Wrong phase.
Read the recent FAQ, it works.
Q: When a rule allows a model or unit to take an action (move,
shoot, charge, fight or attempt to manifest a psychic power)
outside of the normal turn sequence, and that rule explicitly
mentions to make that action as if it were a different phase of the
turn structure to the current one, e.g. ‘That unit can shoot as if it
were the Shooting phase’, do rules that are normally used during
that phase (in the example this would be the Shooting phase) take
effect? Is the same true of Overwatch attacks?
A: With the exception of Stratagems, all rules (e.g.
abilities, Warlord Traits, psychic powers etc.) that would
apply in a specific phase apply to actions that are taking
place ‘as if it were that phase’. However, if a Stratagem
specifies that it must be used in a specific phase, then
it can only be used in that phase (e.g. you cannot use a
Stratagem that says ‘Use this Stratagem in the Shooting
phase’ to affect a unit that is Shooting ‘as if it were
the Shooting phase’).
Interesting, then yeh Warptime works with it. Also I realise falling back does happen in the movement phase, so that works too.
Still not sure it's worth it... D3 mortal wounds maybe once or twice a turn... that's assuming your warlord doesn't get focused down early on for being in the middle of all the enemies. Maybe. Worth trying at least! Seems like there might be more reliable relics though.
Automatically Appended Next Post: What is the best current screen-clearing first turn unit for chaos at the moment? Chaincannon havocs? combi-chosen?
Tesla armigers are probably worth honorable mention here
Hadn't even seen those, were they in the old knights slate? Or was tesla added in the updated book? Will have to take a look
They were in a new FW release that dropped after the new codex was released.
I've been using 2 and a squad of 9 mark of slanesh, alpha legion bikes. I've found it to be a great and tough anti hoarde combo. Bikes mow through low toughness, low save and Moirax take on marine equivilents.
They've both got good movement to make their range decent and are both tougher than chaincannon havocks.
Just a list I'm considering making. Not competitive, but I think it'll be fun to collect, build and play with.
Flamestorm pred is basically built to guard the dreads and prevent them being tarpitted, because for 1CP it can shoot into combat and do 4D6 flamer hits to the chaff.
I went for autocannons on the Discos instead of my usual baleflamer, because they will have +1 to hit along with the reroll of 1's from Syll'eske (I believe this works anyway), so the autocannon if it's fired will probably do some work. Though they'll be advancing anyway, so maybe baleflamer is better... but it does save me 40 points. Not sure on this yet. But I'd have to free up 40 points somewhere if I change it.
I went for the ectoplasma on contemptors because I wanted them as mobile threats, and the soulburners are expensive. Also as they get to reroll all hits as purge (if I manage to focus fire decently) they should be fairly safe from overheating. I could make them even cheaper with bolters, but not sure that's worthwhile?
Also no relics listed. Flamers will be deepstruck (deepstriked?) for 1CP, and the Prince will have Skullreaver. Beyond that I'm not sure.
Sounds like a fun list.
That purge dread spam though is nasty.
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
Just a list I'm considering making. Not competitive, but I think it'll be fun to collect, build and play with.
Flamestorm pred is basically built to guard the dreads and prevent them being tarpitted, because for 1CP it can shoot into combat and do 4D6 flamer hits to the chaff.
I went for autocannons on the Discos instead of my usual baleflamer, because they will have +1 to hit along with the reroll of 1's from Syll'eske (I believe this works anyway), so the autocannon if it's fired will probably do some work. Though they'll be advancing anyway, so maybe baleflamer is better... but it does save me 40 points. Not sure on this yet. But I'd have to free up 40 points somewhere if I change it.
I went for the ectoplasma on contemptors because I wanted them as mobile threats, and the soulburners are expensive. Also as they get to reroll all hits as purge (if I manage to focus fire decently) they should be fairly safe from overheating. I could make them even cheaper with bolters, but not sure that's worthwhile?
Also no relics listed. Flamers will be deepstruck (deepstriked?) for 1CP, and the Prince will have Skullreaver. Beyond that I'm not sure.
Sounds like a fun list.
That purge dread spam though is nasty.
Hopefully!
Originally a bit part of this list was going to be Alpha Legion, as they're actually my favourite as far as legions go, but I decided to try and make a good army without them as I'm predicting AL will be hit bad after the next FAQ. Flawless Host works well though I think.
whembly wrote: Hey guys... looking to get back into my heretic armies after my recent ITC tournament.
I played 5 games, and in four of those games, my opponent really took advantage of the ITC ruin rule whereby units on 1st floor behind wall don't have LOS. Great for units to rack up obj points and in 2 of the games for weapons/powers that don't require LOS.
What's your favorite CSM/Demon units you'd use to "root out" entrench units in ruins like that?
I saw some discussions revolving around a hammer lord - what is the setup? (warptime thrown in I'm assuming)
What about Oblits? (expensive)
I think ya'll brand me as a heretic... but, what about Red Corsair Mutilators? (DS, then assault or if not in range move+run+assault in next turn).
Demons: only thing I can think of is large blob of 'letters or pink horrors???
Anything else?
The best units for this job are hellforged scorpius and deredeos with greater havoc ml. If your not into FW then your mostly stuck with assaulting them out.. at least until you've cleared screens for DS landing zones but by then they've done their job. Single oblits can fit into tighter spaces and I've used them but they can be really swingy and then guaranteed dead.
On a friendlier note I like msu zerks. Theres just something about 4x5 zerks in rhinos thats enjoyable and they always attract attention.
Alternately my go to is dmc tzaangors.
IF the new Shock attack rule indeed works, and you are willing to run RC and Khorne, then i'd imagine that a unit of mulitators might not be half bad.
Atm they are 35 pts right?
Yup. 105 per 3.
What's the new Shock attack rule? Is that from the new Space marine codex that we're hoping CSM would get?
Yes. Astartes are getting it on saturday when the new book is out. Combines the Bolter Discipline we already have with the new +1 attack in the first round of combats.
BlaxicanX wrote: A young business man named Tom Kirby, who was a pupil of mine until he turned greedy, helped the capitalists hunt down and destroy the wargamers. He betrayed and murdered Games Workshop.
Leviathan Dreadnought - Is there any merit to leaving it with double-siege claws and meltaguns? Or is it generally always better to go with double butcher cannons?
I'm just wondering as it will likely be fairly lonesome if left in the backfield, and if its keeping up with the rest of the army then the lack of melee weapons may be an issue? Not sure.
slave.entity wrote: You never want your dreads in close combat. Not enough swings to make CC weapons worth it.
You don't even want a single melee weapon on the Leviathan because it loses a melee attack when you get rid of one combat arm. It's stupid but it is what it is.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
Leviathan is always best with dual BC arrays. If the other weapon options weren't so lack luster it might be different.
Contemptors otoh I find do well with a mixed loadout. I'd put the cc build as equal to the dual BC. My preferences are deathclaw and butcher cannon base and from there I often include havoc ml and then sometimes I'll swap the cbbolter for either the soulburner or recently even the plasma since its cheap. They are surprisingly fast at 9" and draw attention that a backfield double BC contemptor will not.
The deredeo is IMO the best fw dread available, better than a leviathan.. unless facing another leviathan that is. Again pretty no brainer on the weapon options.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/08/16 14:46:44
slave.entity wrote: You never want your dreads in close combat. Not enough swings to make CC weapons worth it.
How about the merits of a butcher/greater havoc deredeo vs a double-butcher leviathan?
Levi is +1 T and has a few more shots, but is 80 points more expensive
Dorito is a little easier to kill, and a few less shots, but some of those shots don't need LOS and he has a bonus against flyers.
Thoughts?
I'd run the double butcher leviathan over the daredeo every day of the week. I know Daredeos are talked about a lot right now but I think that's because people have stopped running mele infantry so are low on options for routing out that unit that is hiding behind terrain.
If you have bloodletters, warptalons, daemonettes, possessed or bezerkers in your list the indirect fire is less important.
I run a double butcher levi in my AL list all the time and he always pulls his weight.
CODEX: CHAOS SPACE MARINES
Demolisher Cannon
Change Type to Heavy D6 and change Abilities to ‘-’
Hateful Assault
Add the following ability to all datasheets that have the Heretic
Astartes or Fallen keyword (excluding units with the Chaos
Cultists keyword):
‘If this unit makes a charge move, is charged or performs a Heroic
Intervention, add 1 to the Attacks characteristic of models in this unit
until the end of the turn.’
This includes daemon engines and vehicles.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/08/16 16:53:38
slave.entity wrote: You never want your dreads in close combat. Not enough swings to make CC weapons worth it.
How about the merits of a butcher/greater havoc deredeo vs a double-butcher leviathan?
Levi is +1 T and has a few more shots, but is 80 points more expensive
Dorito is a little easier to kill, and a few less shots, but some of those shots don't need LOS and he has a bonus against flyers.
Thoughts?
I'd run the double butcher leviathan over the daredeo every day of the week. I know Daredeos are talked about a lot right now but I think that's because people have stopped running mele infantry so are low on options for routing out that unit that is hiding behind terrain.
If you have bloodletters, warptalons, daemonettes, possessed or bezerkers in your list the indirect fire is less important.
I run a double butcher levi in my AL list all the time and he always pulls his weight.
I don't have bloodletters, warptalons, daemonettes, possessed or berzerkers in my list. So...
Automatically Appended Next Post:
p5freak wrote: Free PDF update is up on warhammer community.
Spoiler:
CODEX: CHAOS SPACE MARINES
Demolisher Cannon
Change Type to Heavy D6 and change Abilities to ‘-’
Hateful Assault
Add the following ability to all datasheets that have the Heretic
Astartes or Fallen keyword (excluding units with the Chaos
Cultists keyword):
‘If this unit makes a charge move, is charged or performs a Heroic
Intervention, add 1 to the Attacks characteristic of models in this unit
until the end of the turn.’
This includes daemon engines and vehicles.
Interesting, this is what I wishlisted on here the other day but didn't actually expect it to happen. My maulerfiend is pleased. As are my dreads.
Of course the CSM codex is still a garbage fire in comparison, but it's something.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/08/16 18:06:27
