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 lindsay40k wrote:
That flamestorm combo sounds incredible! Don’t forget to throw in a combi-flamer

Haha yeh when I thought of it the other day it kinda... seemed interesting.

I have to figure out which will be actually worth running though.

Flamestorm Predator (with added flamers/combiflamer)

Helbrute Scourge+Something

Contemptor ... soulburner fists maybe

Leviathan Soulburners + Hellflamers

I can pretty much pick 2, to go along with my Discordant/Maulerfiend/Daemon Prince (skullreaver) that my army currently consists of. I may also add in some barebones chainaxe/bolter terminators as my 'little guys'. Though Purge Warp Talons also appeals, as they would have rerolls on both hits and wounds.

Edit: Obviously the leviathan is twice the cost of the other things. In theory I could have one leviathan, or instead get multiple of the other things. But the Levi does work as a centrepiece maybe. Unsure.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 lindsay40k wrote:
That flamestorm combo sounds incredible! Don’t forget to throw in a combi-flamer

Damn. Remembered the reason why I didn't follow through on the Flamestorm Predator back when I first considered it. It's only 8" range. Might still be worth it but it makes me look back on the Contemptor and Leviathan (and even the normal Helbrute) again. They would get rerolling hits from the Purge, which might help offset the lack of flames.

I mean you can still burn things long range with the dual petard Decimators.

Altough they don't get traits.....

Niiru wrote:

 lindsay40k wrote:
That flamestorm combo sounds incredible! Don’t forget to throw in a combi-flamer

Damn. Remembered the reason why I didn't follow through on the Flamestorm Predator back when I first considered it. It's only 8" range. Might still be worth it but it makes me look back on the Contemptor and Leviathan (and even the normal Helbrute) again. They would get rerolling hits from the Purge, which might help offset the lack of flames.

That would require more moving parts, as you need to inflict a wound on a unit in the current turn to get the Trait active against it. Which, with a shooting attack, means Smite or similar - which means having a psyker in position to soften up the entangled target unit. Or, some complicated Nurgle shenanigans - and if there’s like a Gnarlmaw or Lord of Contagion in the brawl, it’s probably already going well for you.

I just wish the flamestorm predator was actually decent lol. I could take renegades and have some hellhounds I guess. Alternatively it's Tzeentch flamers and exalteds.

the preds still move 12 inches, right? just advance them up tbe table and pop smoke and theyll be flaming stuff turn 2 for sure. no worse than any other assault focused unit, just instead of charging its flaming.

Maybe I'm missing it, but does Boots on the Ground still prevent Heldrakes from hiding Objectives?

I see the document adding the Aircraft keyword, but not to the Boots on the Ground rule.

Back to my list guestion few days back.. I struggled a lot, got maybe biggest defeat in my history, was shot off the table even on super dense table against admech. Their -1 to hit and amount of shooting and buffs.. I seemed to have the softest list from four of us.

Here's the admech list, what do we have against them. I got the first turn, but even with endless cacophony and reroll hit. Rolls of 1 my LC havocs and AC havocs only scraped some paint of onagers and some good targets had -2 to hit so no bother to shoot. In return fire I lost my brutes and havocs.. Dropping oblits and sorc finished one onager, but that was my input in the game. Even with there is more where they came from my 10man 2x RCC squad failed to kill a single ranger from a 5man unit. Rhat was bad dice rollong for sure, but can you blame the dice too much..

Xirax wrote:
Back to my list guestion few days back.. I struggled a lot, got maybe biggest defeat in my history, was shot off the table even on super dense table against admech. Their -1 to hit and amount of shooting and buffs.. I seemed to have the softest list from four of us.

Here's the admech list, what do we have against them. I got the first turn, but even with endless cacophony and reroll hit. Rolls of 1 my LC havocs and AC havocs only scraped some paint of onagers and some good targets had -2 to hit so no bother to shoot. In return fire I lost my brutes and havocs.. Dropping oblits and sorc finished one onager, but that was my input in the game. Even with there is more where they came from my 10man 2x RCC squad failed to kill a single ranger from a 5man unit. Rhat was bad dice rollong for sure, but can you blame the dice too much..

Spoiler:

Stygies VIII Archeotech Batallion & spearhead

tech-priest dominus
tech-priest manipulus
tech-priest enginseer

3x kataphron breachers
4x kataphron destroyers
5x skitarii rangers
5x skitarii vanguard
5x skitarii vanguard

2x ironstrider ballistarius
3x sydonian dragoons

4x onager dunecrawler

Spoiler:

Your list isn't optimized to play against -1 and -2 to hit opponents. If you enjoy fluffly lists than you have to accept these type of games. If you want to run this more competitively take a look at Blood of Kittens top CSM lists etc. that hit top 8 - what units are those lists running? Not helbrutes and not 10 man groups of csm to start... I enjoy havocs as a fun to use unit but I don't think I've seen them in competitive with significant success (too squishy as you probably noted)... If you want to run red corsairs you are prob best taking a minimum squad for the CP and than maxing your second squad of alpha (assuming you want to play straight CSM) to at least have -1 to hit and be slightly more robust... Otherwise consider soup as plaguebearers are pretty much amazing in every list for durability.

 Nightlord1987 wrote:
Maybe I'm missing it, but does Boots on the Ground still prevent Heldrakes from hiding Objectives?

I see the document adding the Aircraft keyword, but not to the Boots on the Ground rule.

Boots on the ground prevents any unit with the flyer battlefield role from holding objectives. And heldrakes don't get the aircraft keyword anyway, because only flyer units with a minimum move distance get that keyword.
So nothing has changed for the heldrake - it can't hold objectives.

So if I can't do a comp list with GW stuff, I have death guard but not long range stuff.. would FW stuff help me?

Xirax wrote:
So if I can't do a comp list with GW stuff, I have death guard but not long range stuff.. would FW stuff help me?

Spoiler:

red corsairs batallion

Huron
Sorcerer with jump pack

20x csm + 2x RCC + combi-plasma
5x csm
5x csm

Havocs + 4x LC

Air wing detachment

3x chaos hell blade

Alpha legion vanguard

Chaos lord + TH + plasma pistol

3x contemptor dreads + 2x butcher cannon + soul burner

Havocs + 4x LC

2k.

This addition costs euros, but maybe I could match against in my meta..

can you drop the CSM? You dont have to go "Forgeworld" just your intrinsic build is bad... The contemps are at least relevant. The hell blades are decent depending on your meta... the csm and havocs as stated before... can you drop them?

What sort of meta would be one in which Hellblades are decent? I have one and I want a squadron but I’m struggling to see the strengths of the unit. +1 to hit some targets that often have an inherent -1 to be hit when you yourself will always have a -1 to hit from moving feels like such a crapshoot. Does the quantity of a bunch of them take on a quality of its own?

They got sort of popular when you could use them to block ground units from moving and stuff like that, but FAQ did away with it. They're still good vs Eldar bikes but of course with Ynnari changes that is less relevant, would still be good vs Eldar flyers and Custodes bikes I guess?

So, chaos knight codex is almost out. And previews abound on youtube. Anyone has any good ideas on how to use them with our CSM armies?

BTW, I tried out Norlitih crown with two whole squads of chaos cultists getting the 5++, and casting delightful agonies on one squad on top of that. They were extremely resilient and irritating to remove.

One of the new stuff in the chaos knight codex is you can spend cp on a strategem to give a 5++ invul to stuff within 6 inches. Not sure if cultists are ideal, maybe other stuff are better. But its worth mentioning.

The knight has to stay still. So its better for a knight that isn't going to be charging stuff. Probably Tyrant (Castellan) type or at least one with battle cannon.

The other question would be... if I still want to use my LOS model, would it be silly to go with an army list that has both a LOS and a chaos renegade knight? lol

My 2 cents, for what its worth....

Chaos Knights in a vacume are not as good as Imperial. Our warlord traits are worse. Our households consist of 2 options. We can actually hit the 3 datasheet limit.

BUT Chaos Knights when mixed into the rest of chaos vs Imperial Knights mixed into the rest of the imperial options.... oh boy does business pick up...

Lets start with the khorne relic of no invulnerable allowed. Take a gallent with that and then magnus with death hex.... as the enemy what are you going to shoot? Don't want magnus? Fine, arhiman can cover it and you still have 2 ways to shut down a units invunerable at the same time in different locations.

Or lets say you wana go even nastier. Tyrant (Castellen) sitting there with some havocs or deathguard or cultists giving them a 5++ save. 30 cultists all huddled around the tyrant protect it from smash captains, and the tyrant gives them a 5++ making sure they dont die to a swift breeze. Add slaanesh psycic to the mix so your cultists have a 6+/5++/5+++ save.... they wont go anywhere fast but that castle can unload down field no issues all game while sitting on a backfield objective.

Or look at needing a sniper. What chaos unit can target a chr? Well, our friendly tyrant holding that objective can with his Demonic Guidance System. Bye bye azreal. See ya Vindicare. Just having that as an option can help a lot.

Not to mention selecting that missile for the demonic surge ability. 1 shot can do 2-7 dmg wounding most chrs on 2's. Is it economic? Heck no. But its funny.

I hope I see a lot of chaos knights in the future.

 lindsay40k wrote:
What sort of meta would be one in which Hellblades are decent? I have one and I want a squadron but I’m struggling to see the strengths of the unit. +1 to hit some targets that often have an inherent -1 to be hit when you yourself will always have a -1 to hit from moving feels like such a crapshoot. Does the quantity of a bunch of them take on a quality of its own?

I think Don Hooson ran a Deathguard list with hellblades and deredeos at LVO this past year (going completely from memory I think he went 5-1) - and had some decent showings before - basically if you are expecting a ton of flyers (eldar etc.) for one reason or another... Its also completely tailored to ITC...

taken from reddit - https://www.reddit.com/r/deathguard40k/comments/akowby/recent_don_hooson_competitive_list/

Daemon Prince with talons

10 Blightlords - 2 flails, 2 blight launchers, 6 bolters

3 Crawlers with spitters

3 Deredeos with butcher cannons

3 Hell Blades with helstorm cannons

I might be crazy but I really fancy a terminator heavy list alpha legion with a knight and some hellbrutes and a sprinkling of havoc's ... Going with like 20 terminators in decent sized squads pumping out alot of dakka keep them more than 12 away and in cover I think that's quite decent. A knight and havoc's for anti vehicle and some hellbrutes to add a bit of firepower.

im start testing a list that here in Italy should perform fine, actually here meta is dominated by hordes and anti horde lists so im planning to play this...


no soft targets, anti infantry weapons nullified, heavy CaC and lot of anti horde fire (lot of flamer+gatlings) decent antitank, anything beside cultists have an Inv save, im going to test next week. I could play black legion instead red corsairs, so i get strong BL stratagem (deny obj control) but i lack the chance to move+advance+charge with LoD.

Rogerio134134 wrote:
I might be crazy but I really fancy a terminator heavy list alpha legion with a knight and some hellbrutes and a sprinkling of havoc's ... Going with like 20 terminators in decent sized squads pumping out alot of dakka keep them more than 12 away and in cover I think that's quite decent. A knight and havoc's for anti vehicle and some hellbrutes to add a bit of firepower.

Looks loads fun to play and they'll be some good looking models on the table

I think if you keep the Terminators cheap with combi bolters and chain axes. And maybe consider changing helbrutes to contemptor or Daredeo dreads or even for two wardogs with autocannons this will play pretty well. Those termies will be tough to shift and you should pack a punch.

 blackmage wrote:
im start testing a list that here in Italy should perform fine, actually here meta is dominated by hordes and anti horde lists so im planning to play this...

Spoiler:

++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Chaos - Chaos Space Marines) [25 PL, 1CP, 454pts] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

Legion [1CP]: Red Corsairs

+ HQ +

Lord Discordant on Helstalker [9 PL, 180pts]: Baleflamer, Mark of Slaanesh
. Helstalker: Techno-virus injector

Sorcerer with Jump Pack [7 PL, 124pts]: Combi-bolter, Delightful Agonies, Force axe, Mark of Slaanesh, Warptime

+ Troops +

Chaos Cultists [3 PL, 50pts]: Mark of Slaanesh
. 9x Chaos Cultist w/ autopistol and brutal assault weapon
. Cultist Champion: Autogun

Chaos Cultists [3 PL, 50pts]: Mark of Slaanesh
. 9x Chaos Cultist w/ autopistol and brutal assault weapon
. Cultist Champion: Autogun

Chaos Cultists [3 PL, 50pts]: Mark of Slaanesh
. 9x Chaos Cultist w/ autopistol and brutal assault weapon
. Cultist Champion: Autogun

++ Spearhead Detachment +1CP (Chaos - Chaos Space Marines) [39 PL, -1CP, 750pts] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

Legion: The Flawless Host

Specialist Detachment [-1CP]: Soulforged Pack

+ HQ +

Lord Discordant on Helstalker [9 PL, 180pts]: Baleflamer, Mark of Slaanesh, Ultimate Confidence, Warlord
. Helstalker: Techno-virus injector

Lord Discordant on Helstalker [9 PL, 180pts]: Baleflamer, Mark of Slaanesh, Master of the Soulforges, Mecha-serpents
. Helstalker: Techno-virus injector

+ Heavy Support +

Venomcrawler [7 PL, 130pts]: Mark of Slaanesh

Venomcrawler [7 PL, 130pts]: Mark of Slaanesh

Venomcrawler [7 PL, 130pts]: Mark of Slaanesh

++ Super-Heavy Detachment +3CP (Chaos - Renegade Knights) [43 PL, 789pts] ++

+ Lord of War +

Renegade Armigers [9 PL, 162pts]
. Renegade Armiger: Heavy stubber, Thermal spear and Reaper chain-cleaver

Renegade Armigers [9 PL, 162pts]
. Renegade Armiger: Heavy stubber, Thermal spear and Reaper chain-cleaver

Renegade Knight [25 PL, 465pts]: Heavy stubber
. Avenger gatling cannon and heavy flamer: Avenger gatling cannon, Heavy flamer
. Avenger gatling cannon and heavy flamer: Avenger gatling cannon, Heavy flamer

++ Total: [107 PL, 1,993pts] ++

no soft targets, anti infantry weapons nullified, heavy CaC and lot of anti horde fire (lot of flamer+gatlings) decent antitank, anything beside cultists have an Inv save, im going to test next week. I could play black legion instead red corsairs, so i get strong BL stratagem (deny obj control) but i lack the chance to move+advance+charge with LoD.

I seriously don't see the point in the baleflamer compared to the AC.
I also question the choice of venomcrawlers over maulerfiends or defilers.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 small_gods wrote:

Rogerio134134 wrote:
I might be crazy but I really fancy a terminator heavy list alpha legion with a knight and some hellbrutes and a sprinkling of havoc's ... Going with like 20 terminators in decent sized squads pumping out alot of dakka keep them more than 12 away and in cover I think that's quite decent. A knight and havoc's for anti vehicle and some hellbrutes to add a bit of firepower.

Looks loads fun to play and they'll be some good looking models on the table

I think if you keep the Terminators cheap with combi bolters and chain axes. And maybe consider changing helbrutes to contemptor or Daredeo dreads or even for two wardogs with autocannons this will play pretty well. Those termies will be tough to shift and you should pack a punch.

Maybee 30 Cultists for some clutch cp?
Sorcerer can also help for the 5+ FNP on the termites.
Maybee invest in reaper chaincannons. Bolter chainaxe should be fine for the rest.

Yeah I've got some cultists sat in the box but just finishing up 5 alpha legion terminators and I just love them, so yeah think I'm going to get some more and go terminator heavy and a knight as I've said, just cool looking hard hitting units.

I seriously don't see the point in the baleflamer compared to the AC.
I also question the choice of venomcrawlers over maulerfiends or defilers.

you dont see? you can move+advance (average 17"+18" from baleflamer range and you autohit anything) and still fire baleflamer,you cant with autocannon, in that list almost anything beside Ik move and advance most of time , i can warptime the warlord into melee range (28"+6" average) and still shoot some baleflamer, autocannon has only 2 shots and you need to hit, autocannons aren't a threat.
LoD perform like melee units not like shooting units, you dont need 48" weapon for a model which want get into melee as soon as possible. Agree perhaps defilers/maulerfiends could be better, venomcrawlers are cheaper anyway so i can easily field all 3.

 blackmage wrote:

I seriously don't see the point in the baleflamer compared to the AC.
I also question the choice of venomcrawlers over maulerfiends or defilers.

you dont see? you can move+advance (average 17"+18" from baleflamer range and you autohit anything) and still fire baleflamer,you cant with autocannon, in that list almost anything beside Ik move and advance most of time , i can warptime the warlord into melee range (28"+6" average) and still shoot some baleflamer, autocannon has only 2 shots and you need to hit, autocannons aren't a threat.
LoD perform like melee units not like shooting units, you dont need 48" weapon for a model which want get into melee as soon as possible. Agree perhaps defilers/maulerfiends could be better, venomcrawlers are cheaper anyway so i can easily field all 3.

You don't think this list is too squishy for an IG gunline? Most of your units are clocking in sub T8 and with no negative to hit modifiers. I guess it is a meta call but IG and Tau look like would blow this off the table in 2 turns.

Your list looks to pack a punch but may be caught in the scenario similar to morty and magnus lists - really edging on going first. If you are playing CA too the low number of drops is not in your favor.

i think not... most Ig/tau list are set up against hordes, they cant blow out of table a list like this in 2 turns, i played a lot against Ig with my nurgle demons, they pack lot of punishment against infantry based lists lot less against veichles, castellans are less common here now and they was the real veichles nemesis , if a Ig/tau set up with heavy antitank they auto lost against hordes. Now an average Ig here play 9 mortars, couples of wiverns 3 tank commanders 60-70 guardsmen and usually pask on punisher then you can find couple of basilisks, not enough to handle this kind of list. If you face 3 Ik's+Ig can be thougher honestly saying.
About CA.... depend mostly what you face, if your opponent plays lot of light infantry (GSC, Tyr, Demons) you shred out all his infantry and they cant anyway control obiectives (tried a similar list against a Tyr and ended with him almost tabled), if you face heavy infantry he cant have lot of bodies and anyway the large amount of ap-2/-3 attacks pays back. A problem could be Pb's spam cause they are very resilient, in that case you need to take control as soon as possible to table center, Pb's itself struggle to remove T7 multi wound ta 2+/3+ models.

 blackmage wrote:

I seriously don't see the point in the baleflamer compared to the AC.
I also question the choice of venomcrawlers over maulerfiends or defilers.

you dont see? you can move+advance (average 17"+18" from baleflamer range and you autohit anything) and still fire baleflamer,you cant with autocannon, in that list almost anything beside Ik move and advance most of time , i can warptime the warlord into melee range (28"+6" average) and still shoot some baleflamer, autocannon has only 2 shots and you need to hit, autocannons aren't a threat.
LoD perform like melee units not like shooting units, you dont need 48" weapon for a model which want get into melee as soon as possible. Agree perhaps defilers/maulerfiends could be better, venomcrawlers are cheaper anyway so i can easily field all 3.

And the price is still an issue, the baleflamer is overpriced.

Why even bother at all with the dakka on the LoD when you throw them anyways in melee. It's just added tax imo.
So i'd go for the cheap AC instead.

can be right but that's a weapon with 0 use i spend 20 more points but im sure at least i will use it, anyway agree baleflamer is overpriced, when i need save points, baleflamers are the 1st thing i delete.

Agree, the baleflamer is a nice "Hm I'm at 1980 points what to do?" upgrade.

Was hoping for some chaos space marine advice. I'm returning to the game and building an Alpha Legion force. So far, this is what I have:

1 Terminator Lord
1 Master of Possession (also works as a sorcerer imo)
2 Greater Possessed
10 Guardsmen (cultists)
50 Chaos Space Marines (intention to build 10 of them into possessed using spawn bits)
5 Havocs (intention to build them into CSM with heavy weapons)
5 Terminators (unsure, likely going to magnetize arms)
5 Obliterators (love Oblits!)

I also have a venomcrawler that I plan to sell (not big on daemon engines, though I do like this one in particular and the LD, though I doubt I'll buy him). I have x30 Pink Horrors, x50 Blue/Brimstone Horrors, 3 Flamers, 1 Exalted Flamer, 3 Screamers, and a Herald, also ~50 Bloodletters on a variety of 20mm, 32mm, and 25mm square bases.

What's good, what's bad, what works, what doesn't? I played a little bit last summer, but I know some things have changed with all the updates, etc.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Agree, the baleflamer is a nice "Hm I'm at 1980 points what to do?" upgrade.

Ayy but he can use this points also to upgrade the rather pointless venomcrawlers.

played today CA mission beachhead spearhead assault deplyoment against an ork
list was this:

won 16-4 , had 1st turn
I keep play the Ik for a single reason, with the release of chaos Ik im pretty sure you will play in mechanized list like that, the firepower and distraction it offers let the rest of army pass at least 1 turn almost untouched, ork with 25 lootas aren't able to deal with all those fast targets and in meanwhile i scored 3 point each turn.