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necrotekkie wrote:

Snugiraffe wrote:

necrotekkie wrote:

Spoiler:

 p5freak wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

kaiseric wrote:
So reaper chain cannon is better with csm instead of havoc because of short range?

It's just hard to get havocs in range safely, so a single cannon isn't a huge priority for your opponent, but is still effective overall.

Stick 2x5 havocs with chaincannons in a terrax pattern assault drill, add a psyker with prescience, a lord to re-roll 1s, deepstrike, disembark, cast prescience, shoot, use endless cacophony to shoot again with the prescienced unit, 120 shots, 80 of them hitting on 2s

Is it worth it to add 134 points to an expensive bomb that will be murdered immediately afterwards?

If you have the right targets, you're likely killing pretty much their points' worth – taking out roughly 450 points of enemy should be doable. And if your bomb becomes the target of your opponent's wrath afterwards, it's diverting enemy fire away from what's left of the other three quarters of your army (assuming 2000 points here). Failing prescience, or having it denied, will make Heretic Timmy do sad face though, unless your dice like you.

I follow your logic. So, what are the big targets we're looking for? Guard chaff waves, GSC (would there be enough within range?), Nurglings/plaguebearers. With the 9" restriction on the termite, I'm trying to think of how many a 24" bubble could realistically reach. I can't recall, could you warptime the havocs after disembarking for more range?

Warptime can’t be used on units on the turn they arrive. The ruling is buried in the Index: Chaos FAQ from a year ago, and the new Codex replicates the old wording of Warptime; I guess we’re going to see a fair number of new CSM collectors finding out their Terminators can’t teleport, move, flame, and charge.

Hope they collate & compile our Index & Codex (and, for that matter, Big) FAQs, because the amount of back-and-forth is getting beyond a joke now.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 p5freak wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

kaiseric wrote:
So reaper chain cannon is better with csm instead of havoc because of short range?

It's just hard to get havocs in range safely, so a single cannon isn't a huge priority for your opponent, but is still effective overall.

Stick 2x5 havocs with chaincannons in a terrax pattern assault drill, add a psyker with prescience, a lord to re-roll 1s, deepstrike, disembark, cast prescience, shoot, use endless cacophony to shoot again with the prescienced unit, 120 shots, 80 of them hitting on 2s

Mmm, they’re not arriving until T2, which could mean the chaff has advanced so far your anti-chaff deepstrikers end up having to deep strike into your own deployment zone. And if you wanted to clear chaff to make room for your own deep strike specialist units, that’s putting their arrival back unit T3 at the earliest.

Chaincannon havocs hiding at the start of the game then popping EC with buffs should be enough to put a dent in most screens.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

kaiseric wrote:
So reaper chain cannon is better with csm instead of havoc because of short range?

It's just hard to get havocs in range safely, so a single cannon isn't a huge priority for your opponent, but is still effective overall.

Would be probably less of an issue if we could take more then 5 per squad....

Can’t even take five, it’s four Havocs with heavy weapons and a Champion with a special weapon.

RAW, the Champion can have a Plasma Gun and a combi-Plasma. Probably won’t get errata’d this time round, so we can burn points on it for a good six months

I for one welcome our new slaanesh combo herald/daemon prince overlord. I look forward to him/her splashing +1 strength, reroll 1s and move and advance onto our daemon engines.

 p5freak wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

kaiseric wrote:
So reaper chain cannon is better with csm instead of havoc because of short range?

It's just hard to get havocs in range safely, so a single cannon isn't a huge priority for your opponent, but is still effective overall.

Stick 2x5 havocs with chaincannons in a terrax pattern assault drill, add a psyker with prescience, a lord to re-roll 1s, deepstrike, disembark, cast prescience, shoot, use endless cacophony to shoot again with the prescienced unit, 120 shots, 80 of them hitting on 2s

No, your adding 24 shots from nowhere.

It's 96 shots. 64 hitting on 2's.

It requires 5 units at about 600 points. I think it's really swingy. I've already used a drill with one unit and some berzerkers and the double shoot. It can be devastating. it can also be a dud. You can easily butcher the first target and be out of range from anything else. So you need to get close. So smart players will game this hard and force you to deploy as close to their screening unit as possible, at which point they will auspex scan (or the equivalent) and murder your guys. You can always deploy 12.1" away if they are not eldar, but now your making the first issue worse, the one where you shoot the first 32 shots and murder the screen and kill yourself out of range. I think this needs to be in the right list but is definitely viable.





Automatically Appended Next Post:
So I have been having a lot of fun lately with the following list.
Red Corsair Battalion
Huron (warptime)
Lord Discordant Baleflamer
5 CSM autocanon
5 CSM autocanon
5 CSM lascanon
Red Corsair Spearhead Soulforged pack
Lord Discordant Baleflamer MoK (talisman of burning blood) +2" move WLT
Lord Discordant Baleflamer MoS (intoxicating Elixir)
5 CSM lascanon
Maulerfiend Lasher tendrils
Maulerfiend Lasher tendrils
Venom Crawler
Venom Crawler
1499

In the spirit of the drill reapers you could easily scale this up to 2k by adding a drill with 2x5 reaper chain canon havoc squads and switch hurons power prescience since you get the same buff but as a lord and sorcerer all in one. The lord discordants solve to early game screen removal well since they can easily get turn 1 charges off which should force your opponents deployment way back. The drill and 2 havoc squads takes it to1933, so room for tweaking. I also think I would move the elixir to the battalion LD and give the other soulforged LD the mechtendril relic for 1 CP

Particularly cheap? Not really. You could go trip bikes with flamers and advance / shoot. But units good at clearing screens? Those 20 marines you just talked about have some value.

Take them, put 2 chain cannons in there. Use bolters (dont be charging with chaos marines, their bolters will always out perform their fists even with a chainsword) and give them mark of slaanesh. T1 have them redeploy with the red corsair strat into double tap range and unload. Give the champ a combi bolter too. Thats 38 bolter shots and 16 chain cannon shots, that should kill a screen or 2. If needed have them shoot again using endless canophy. Between it all you should kill 8-12 guardsmen with the bolters and another 4-5 from the chainguns. Assuming the 2nd time you shoot its not double tap you should still easily kill 20 guardsmen (yes i know OMG, 300 pts to kill 80 guard). Thats quite a bit of chaff cleared out of the way for that deamon prince that advanced and warp timed himself to charge into something of value. Also buys the rest of your force time to get into position for a turn 2 charge / make a good landing zone for those oblits to drop in next turn. If your opponent does shoot at the marines and kills them then they didnt shoot at all the other good stuff you have, and if they do but just 1 guy manages to live, well, whats another few cp right?

Not the most point effective way to run them, for sure, but sometimes its not just about one unit vs one unit in a vacume, its about army synergy. If 300 pts of marines can buy me time to do what i want with the other 1700, i call that a valid use. And if your opponent does just ignore the marines well, they can just keep on killing more stuff.

What are our options against Flyer spam and -1 to hit lists? I feel like CSM is now in a very strong place but we still match up really poorly against the Eldar Flyer list or any other list that can kite and stay out of melee. While we do have access to decent shooting units, these units don't tend to stack up well against -1 to hit debuffs.

Some of the options I've thought about:
- Jump Lord with thunder hammer / relic
- Winged DPs
- Deredeo
- Hellforged Leviathan
- Hellforged Sicaran

Is there anything else I'm missing?

In my most recent game I used a WB Chaos Lord with The Cursed Crozius (although thunder hammer is probably better) and a Khorne Winged DP to good effect. My opponent was using a CHE and Hemlock and my flying duo managed to rip both of them out of the sky with a little assisstance and poor positioning by my opponent. However, I don't think my list has any answers to 3+ (or well positioned) flyers.

drakerocket wrote:
I for one welcome our new slaanesh combo herald/daemon prince overlord. I look forward to him/her splashing +1 strength, reroll 1s and move and advance onto our daemon engines.

That new herald/daemon prince is op. If taken in a solely slanaash daemon detachment, he gives 3 auras! +1 str to all slanaash daemons, reroll all 1s to hit, and advance and charge. And his damage... If you thought LD was bad at 12 attacks. If this new guy is within charge range of 2 units, he could do 16 attack (at a minimum, because one of his weapon profiles is actually d3 attacks for each attack). So, one big lot of 8 str 8 attacks at damage 3 and another 8d3 attacks at str 5, AP -1, damage 1... its absolutely bonkers.

And our CSM units with daemon keyword can benefit from all 3 of his auras. We just need to make them mark of slanaash.

Eldenfirefly wrote:

drakerocket wrote:
I for one welcome our new slaanesh combo herald/daemon prince overlord. I look forward to him/her splashing +1 strength, reroll 1s and move and advance onto our daemon engines.

That new herald/daemon prince is op. If taken in a solely slanaash daemon detachment, he gives 3 auras! +1 str to all slanaash daemons, reroll all 1s to hit, and advance and charge. And his damage... If you thought LD was bad at 12 attacks. If this new guy is within charge range of 2 units, he could do 16 attack (at a minimum, because one of his weapon profiles is actually d3 attacks for each attack). So, one big lot of 8 str 8 attacks at damage 3 and another 8d3 attacks at str 5, AP -1, damage 1... its absolutely bonkers.

And our CSM units with daemon keyword can benefit from all 3 of his auras. We just need to make them mark of slanaash.

I agree, insanely powerful, 9 inch move too so can keep up with deamon engines. Really strong screen clearing with 8d3 s5 -1ap attacks + another 8. An 8 wound character too... got to be around 250 points?

Not sure why, but my gut says the new combo prince will be a bit undercosted at 195 points. That's my guess!

I do think 9 inches is a bit of a snag. If they get the +3" move warlord trait, that will be fabulous. But 9" move to keep up with our 12" or 14" daemon engines won't quite cut it, particularly since your goal is going to be a first turn charge.

So would you guys pick a Venomcrawler over a Defiler as a lone distraction carnifex? The Venom is faster, has an assault weapon with BS that doesn't degrade, regenerates more, explodes on a 5+ and is cheaper. The Defiler has more guns with worse BS, more starting wounds, hits a LOT harder in CC and is 20 pts more expensive (the way I was planning to run it).

Also, according to Battlescribe, the Venomcrawler has no smoke launchers.

I'm torn.

EDIT: Would you go with a Terminator Sorc or a Jump Sorc to support a large squad of Terminators? Is the extra maneuverability worth the sacrifice in durability? Having a HQ with only a 3+ save kinda triggers me.

If it's going alone, go with the defiler. Venomcrawler will get squished much faster. If the sorc. Is just going to hang with the termies, use termie armor. You don't need mobility with him. Really, if he is just going with the termies, you could probably get by with running him naked unless you want him to deepstrike.

I'm team jump pack. He's not getting shot at if you sit him behind the terminators and if your opponent has a Vindicare or similar you just need to cop that. If you are running a termi bomb you mostly need him for the turn he drops down anyway.

KnightScion wrote:
Is the Indomitable WL trait for Black Legion only?

Looking to Do a Red Corsairs Soulforged Pack with two LoD, one with the Indomitable WL trait, and the second with the Field Commander to get he soulforged WL trait.

Indomitable is BL only.

the_Jakman wrote:


Also, according to Battlescribe, the Venomcrawler has no smoke launchers.

Yep, the defiler is the only codex daemon engine with smoke launchers.

Fellow apostles from the Word Bearers - our relic (Cursed Crozius) in the CSM codex states that it replaces the bearers power mail.

The new Dark Apostle datasheet in Vigilus Ablaze has him holding an "Accursed Crozius". The "Cursed Crozius" is still a slightly better weapon, and I'm assuming this will be FAQ'd, but I'm wondering if anyone with the Second Edition Chaos Codex can confirm if the wording for the Word Bearers relic is different?

Also, I can't find the Master of Possessions rules in Vigilus Ablaze... Everything else is there except him.

Thanks in advance!

 Raichase wrote:
Fellow apostles from the Word Bearers - our relic (Cursed Crozius) in the CSM codex states that it replaces the bearers power mail.

The new Dark Apostle datasheet in Vigilus Ablaze has him holding an "Accursed Crozius". The "Cursed Crozius" is still a slightly better weapon, and I'm assuming this will be FAQ'd, but I'm wondering if anyone with the Second Edition Chaos Codex can confirm if the wording for the Word Bearers relic is different?

Also, I can't find the Master of Possessions rules in Vigilus Ablaze... Everything else is there except him.

Thanks in advance!

To my knowledge your corzius now can indeed not be replaced by it anymore due to GW's wisdom.

And MoPs rules are in codex 2 and the mini Daemonkin codex not vigilus ablaze


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Basically the Daemonkin mini codex that came with shadowspear has all the updated/new rules for stuff in the shadowspear box.

Vigilus ablaze has updated/new datasheets for everything else that is new that wasn't in shadowspear like Havocs and terminators, lord Discordant dark Apostle etc.

Codex 2 has everything from the original codex plus Daemonkin plus vigilus ablaze

However, none of the vigilus ablaze exclusive stuff is in the codex 2. (Specialist detachments and Black legion extra relics and strats)

If you want all the rules you need either
Codex 2 and vigilus ablaze
Or
Codex 1, Daemonkin and vigilus ablaze

It's kind of a pain in the arse tbh. Although I believe you can download the Daemonkin codex to be fair...

Abaddon303 wrote:


It's kind of a pain in the arse tbh. Although I believe you can download the Daemonkin codex to be fair...

You can download the datasheets for the MoP, GPs, Oblits and Venomcrawler. The PDF file includes the psychic powers from the Malefic discipline for the MoP. It does not include any points values, nor does it include the new warlord traits for heretic astartes psykers. The latter are only in the Shadowspear mini-dex. It's quite a mess, really. And once you start using the new Slaaneshi herald/prince and a new KoS, you have even more loose bits of paper/random files to sift through. We'll all end up looking like some Eccesiarchy scribe's lackey every time we show up anywhere for a game...

No, no, wait a minute... I have it here somewhere...

saint_red wrote:
What are our options against Flyer spam and -1 to hit lists? I feel like CSM is now in a very strong place but we still match up really poorly against the Eldar Flyer list or any other list that can kite and stay out of melee. While we do have access to decent shooting units, these units don't tend to stack up well against -1 to hit debuffs.

Some of the options I've thought about:
- Jump Lord with thunder hammer / relic
- Winged DPs
- Deredeo
- Hellforged Leviathan
- Hellforged Sicaran

Is there anything else I'm missing?

In my most recent game I used a WB Chaos Lord with The Cursed Crozius (although thunder hammer is probably better) and a Khorne Winged DP to good effect. My opponent was using a CHE and Hemlock and my flying duo managed to rip both of them out of the sky with a little assisstance and poor positioning by my opponent. However, I don't think my list has any answers to 3+ (or well positioned) flyers.

We have a few very good options to choose from, its all about figuring out how you want to to about doing it and what your running.

Besides what you have already said, here are a few other ideas.

If your playing black legion then havocs and abadon is an easy answer. The rules changes to abby now mean that you can reroll any dice you want qhen rolling for failed hits so those 3's and 4's that should hit but miss after modifiers can be rerolled. That helps give you some more reliable firepower.

Helldrakes are often laughed at but look at their cost with a bale flamer vs a hemlock. Now keep in mind the helldrake auto hits with the bale flamer and can charge the hemlock.


If anyone else has any ideas i would like to hear them as well.

mrtomski wrote:
I'm struggling to see why you would want to take 20 csm with chainsaws over beserkers, who just seem to do the job better, for less points, and less Cp needed?

1) They would be elites if not World Eaters
2) I can't give berzerkers a 5+++ or a -1 to hit through psychic phase
3) With outnumber I get the same number of attacks as a beserker with chainsword
4) For every 13 bezerkers I can get 16 CSM (but I wouldn't need an apostle since they're S5)
5) Innate fight twice is great, but often never comes into play
6) I'd take Abaddon over Kharn all day for rerolls to hit and hitting power

 Daedalus81 wrote:

mrtomski wrote:
I'm struggling to see why you would want to take 20 csm with chainsaws over beserkers, who just seem to do the job better, for less points, and less Cp needed?

1) They would be elites if not World Eaters
2) I can't give berzerkers a 5+++ or a -1 to hit through psychic phase
3) With outnumber I get the same number of attacks as a beserker with chainsword
4) For every 13 bezerkers I can get 16 CSM (but I wouldn't need an apostle since they're S5)
5) Innate fight twice is great, but often never comes into play
6) I'd take Abaddon over Kharn all day for rerolls to hit and hitting power

And that's testable - you could compare the mathhammer for Berzerkers with fight twice versus Black Legion CSMs with full rerolls from Abaddon + special rules.

I haven't done it yet but suspect CSMs edge out the Berzerkers in many situations. First Amongst Traitors, for instance, is going to spawn a lot of extra hits.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

mrtomski wrote:
I'm struggling to see why you would want to take 20 csm with chainsaws over beserkers, who just seem to do the job better, for less points, and less Cp needed?

1) They would be elites if not World Eaters
2) I can't give berzerkers a 5+++ or a -1 to hit through psychic phase
3) With outnumber I get the same number of attacks as a beserker with chainsword
4) For every 13 bezerkers I can get 16 CSM (but I wouldn't need an apostle since they're S5)
5) Innate fight twice is great, but often never comes into play
6) I'd take Abaddon over Kharn all day for rerolls to hit and hitting power

1) OK you could argue that that's 65 points saved - but if you are using your CSM, or cultists for other purposes not really such a big deal.
2) True enough, but you can put them in a rhino to protect them and apply those buffs to the rhino if you want (and get to -2)
3) s4 ap 0 attacks, not s6 ap -1 attacks which are much better
5) I don't have much experience here, but if you don't wipe something you are going to swing twice right?
6) adding another 200+ point dependecy isn't really selling the 20 man blog

The issue with the swing twice ability is that berserkers are often hitting something dangerous and hitting it early. Generally that means your opponent has the desire and cp to interrupt

Abaddon303 wrote:
The issue with the swing twice ability is that berserkers are often hitting something dangerous and hitting it early. Generally that means your opponent has the desire and cp to interrupt

But that does mean that they used their one interrupt and 2 CP on your Zerkers, and not, say, your Defilers, or Maulerfiends, or Abaddon, or Kharne, or...

Well yes, but that also means they probably wiped your berserkers whereas the defilers, maulerfiend or ab can probably tank a bit more damage.
Regardless, as a straight up comparison, chosen with chainaxes and the outnumber strat are putting out 3 S5 -1 attacks compared to berserkers 2 S6 -1 and 1 S5 0 attacks so they're better against T4,T7 and T8 which are probably your most common targets.
It's definitely food for thought as they come in 2pts per model cheaper than berserkers and also have a free bolter or an option to take combos/specials. Certainly they have more versatility while now being able to hold their own in melee alongside berserkers

Abaddon303 wrote:
Well yes, but that also means they probably wiped your berserkers whereas the defilers, maulerfiend or ab can probably tank a bit more damage.
Regardless, as a straight up comparison, chosen with chainaxes and the outnumber strat are putting out 3 S5 -1 attacks compared to berserkers 2 S6 -1 and 1 S5 0 attacks so they're better against T4,T7 and T8 which are probably your most common targets.
It's definitely food for thought as they come in 2pts per model cheaper than berserkers and also have a free bolter or an option to take combos/specials. Certainly they have more versatility while now being able to hold their own in melee alongside berserkers

What's stopping you from using Outnumbered on Berserkers?

(AFB, so they might not be able to-I legitimately do not know.)

I'm sorry, why are we ignoring the fact that the Berzerkers get to fight twice just because your opponent might use a stratagem to interrupt? Like, there is no world where Chosen are even remotely anywhere near as good in melee as Khorne Berzerkers. Fight Twice isn't just the ability to get more attacks, it's the ability to kill something, consolidate and then punch something that was behind what you just killed. Berzerkers are so much better that it's silly.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
I'm sorry, why are we ignoring the fact that the Berzerkers get to fight twice just because your opponent might use a stratagem to interrupt? Like, there is no world where Chosen are even remotely anywhere near as good in melee as Khorne Berzerkers. Fight Twice isn't just the ability to get more attacks, it's the ability to kill something, consolidate and then punch something that was behind what you just killed. Berzerkers are so much better that it's silly.

It's the ever-present Dakka-Fallacy where your opponent has an infinite amount of CP and will immediately destroy your plans at the worst possible time.

I also do not believe that Berzerkers can be beaten for the cost in this scenario. Also, if they force my opponent to burn 2 cp...well...that's fine with me.

mrtomski wrote:


1) OK you could argue that that's 65 points saved - but if you are using your CSM, or cultists for other purposes not really such a big deal.
2) True enough, but you can put them in a rhino to protect them and apply those buffs to the rhino if you want (and get to -2)
3) s4 ap 0 attacks, not s6 ap -1 attacks which are much better
5) I don't have much experience here, but if you don't wipe something you are going to swing twice right?
6) adding another 200+ point dependecy isn't really selling the 20 man blog

With the first two points you've massively expanded the cost of the list. I love rhinos and I'd totally stick beserkers in them if they got a new kit. The down side is that you need 150 in cultists and then 140 in rhinos for 20 guys. That means 630 points for the role of 260 before buffs. Now, granted the rhinos will be super useful to block overwatch and such, but they stick out like a sore thumb in a list with no other vehicles. That's why I opted for the Warp Talons to block.

3 S4s AP0 vs 2 S6 AP1 can be a wash, but not in all scenarios. Fight twice helps a lot for scenarios where the opponent hasn't been overkilled yet.

Would chainaxe beserkers do better than CSM against a knight with the same buffs? Absolutely, but you have to consider the cost of getting them there.

Abaddon I wouldn't call a dependency. He's extremely formidable, blocks all morale, and gives reroll all hits instead of just failed hits with Kharn. He can easily put a lot of hurt on knights now, too.

I see a lot of folks adding Abadon to non-Black-Legion lists... Are you doing that at the expense of their pure Legion bonuses... or making a whole BL detachment w/taxes just to include him?

I think rhinos are actually helped a bit in combination with daemon engines. They have very similar defensive profiles. Sure, everyone likes to say that rhinos will get shot off the board turn one and so will lords discordant.
But if the only things on the board are daemon engines, rhinos and characters? Your opponent isn't going to blow up 8-10 vehicles turn one. Do they choose to blow up your party bus of zerkers, your party bus of havocs or your daemon engines?

drakerocket wrote:
I think rhinos are actually helped a bit in combination with daemon engines. They have very similar defensive profiles. Sure, everyone likes to say that rhinos will get shot off the board turn one and so will lords discordant.
But if the only things on the board are daemon engines, rhinos and characters? Your opponent isn't going to blow up 8-10 vehicles turn one. Do they choose to blow up your party bus of zerkers, your party bus of havocs or your daemon engines?

Yes, I can see a path to a very effective monster-mash style list with low CP. That won't be on the table for me until I afford the Discordant (or two). Abaddon always comes first.