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Daedalus81 wrote: This is my working list for my next ITC tournament. The PA Horde.
Am I just the right amount of crazy?
BLACK LEGION +5 CP Abaddon, WL, +2CP, DttFE 5+
Apostle, Disciples, -1 to hit (or 5++ vs DE / high AP armies), Veteran Raider
Exalted, Chainsword, Combibolter, Ghorisvex's Teeth
20 CSM, Chainswords, SLAANESH
19 CSM, Chainswords, SLAANESH
10 Cultists
5 Havocs, Flamer, 4 AC
RED CORSAIRS +8CP Sorcerer, Staff, Warptime, Delightful Agonies
Master of Executions
3x5 CSM, Combi-Bolter, Chaincannon
BLACK LEGION or NIGHT LORDS, HOST RAPTORIAL +1CP Chaos Jump Lord, Thunder Hammer, SLAANESH, Intoxicating Elixirs, Field Commander - Tip of the Claw
3x5 Warp Talons
1995 points.
Starting CP: 19
Extra Relics, Host Raptorial, Extra WL trait, Field Commander = 4CP
There is a large potential for negative leadership by switching to Nurgle icons and their -1 to hit spell as well as Night Lords plus a relic and possibly Haarken if you wanted to trade out the Havocs to fit him in.
This numbers below are not a representation of what WILL happen on the field, but an identifier of how much mileage one can get out.
- 20 CSM, +1A for outnumber, VotLW, 5+ DttFE, reroll hits and wounds (Abaddon & Exalted) - 61 * 1.333 * .888 * .75 * .333 = 18 wounds to any knight
- The exalted gets 6 S4 AP3 D2 attacks with a high chance for extra mortal wounds (and a good secondary target for VotLW).
- The jump lord gets 5 S10 thunderhammer swings and escorts the talons in to block any scary overwatch.
- The Apostle carried the Fallback and Charge trait so I can fallback past the screens and charge deeper in.
Chainsword blobs, but not red Corsairs?
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
I like the regen gimmick, but it's really hard for me to pass up on morale immunity, reroll all hits, VotLW, and +1A to outnumber.
Regen plus mobility It's basically secured mobility. Also abbys morale immunity applies to ALL csm units not just bl, it's mainly the rerolls that are only bl in that case but you could always switcharoo the exalted champion maybee?
Also right ammount of crazy, very much indeed.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/04/22 20:58:43
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
++Battalion+
++Cult of the Damned: Dark Apostles, Dark Disciples, Chaos Cultists++ -1CP
HQ Dark Apostle 100
+Inferno Tome
+Prayers: Benediction of Darkness, Warp-sight plea
Total: 100
Master of Possession 90
+Force Stave 8
+Powers: Cursed Earth, Infernal Power, Smite
+Warlord: Reader of Fate
Total: 98
Chaos Space Marines (x10) 65
+Autocannon 10
+Icon of Vengence 5
+Champion: Chainsword 0
+Champion: Combi-bolter 2
Total: 80
Chaos Space Marines (x10) 65
+Autocannon 10
+Icon of Vengence 5
+Champion: Chainsword 0
+Champion: Combi-bolter 2
Total: 80
Chaos Space Marines (x10) 65
+Autocannon 10
+Icon of Vengence 5
+Champion: Chainsword 0
+Champion: Combi-bolter 2
Total: 80
Chaos Space Marines (x10) 65
+Autocannon 10
+Icon of Vengence 5
+Champion: Chainsword 0
+Champion: Combi-bolter 2
Total: 80
Elites
Dark Disciples (2) 10
++Vanguard++
++Daemonkin Ritualists: Dark Apostles, Dark Disciples, Masters of Possession, Possessed, and Greater Possessed -1CP
HQ Master of Possession 90
+Force Stave 8
+Warptime (-1 CP for Chaos Familiar, replaces Smite or Possession depending on opponent)
+Powers: Mutated Invigoration, Possession, Smite
+Field Commander: Shepherd of the True Faith -1 CP Total: 98
Elite
Greater Possessed 70
Greater Possessed 70
Possessed (x20) 400
+Icon of Wrath 10
Total: 410
++Spearhead++
++Soulforged Pack: Warpsmith and Daemon Engine++ -1CP
HQ Lord Discordant on Helstalker 150
+Baleflamer 30
+Techno-virus Injector 0
+ Field Commander: Master of the Soul Forges -1CP
Total: 180
Heavy Support
Venomcrawler 130
Venomcrawler 130
Obliterators (2) 230
Total: 1996
CP: 10-5= 5CP
Deployment: Chaos Marines take objectives and provide rear support, Cultists screen Dark Apostle, Dark Disciples, Master of Possession Warlord and Obliterators to move up and to hold mid field objectives.
Lord Discordant takes one flank with the Daemon Engines while the other flank is taken by the Possessed Horde and their supporting units.
You’ve got your DA taking two prayers, neither of which are Dark Zealotry. You’ll have to pick one of +1 to hit or -1 to be hit, I’m afraid. (Surprised we didn’t get strats similar to Chaos Familiar for DA & MoPs.)
I like the regen gimmick, but it's really hard for me to pass up on morale immunity, reroll all hits, VotLW, and +1A to outnumber.
Regen plus mobility It's basically secured mobility. Also abbys morale immunity applies to ALL csm units not just bl, it's mainly the rerolls that are only bl in that case but you could always switcharoo the exalted champion maybee?
Also right ammount of crazy, very much indeed.
Possibly. There are ways to work around deficiencies. An apostle can cover losing VotLW in combat, but the list is more vulnerable to getting sniped that way.
Given that they're running and I have enough CP to reroll advance I'd be ok hoofing it and getting warp time off occasionally. Losing the +1A is probably the biggest thing. I'll have to try it both ways, I guess.
++Battalion+
++Cult of the Damned: Dark Apostles, Dark Disciples, Chaos Cultists++ -1CP
HQ Dark Apostle 100
+Inferno Tome
+Prayers: Benediction of Darkness, Warp-sight plea
Total: 100
Master of Possession 90
+Force Stave 8
+Powers: Cursed Earth, Infernal Power, Smite
+Warlord: Reader of Fate
Total: 98
Chaos Space Marines (x10) 65
+Autocannon 10
+Icon of Vengence 5
+Champion: Chainsword 0
+Champion: Combi-bolter 2
Total: 80
Chaos Space Marines (x10) 65
+Autocannon 10
+Icon of Vengence 5
+Champion: Chainsword 0
+Champion: Combi-bolter 2
Total: 80
Chaos Space Marines (x10) 65
+Autocannon 10
+Icon of Vengence 5
+Champion: Chainsword 0
+Champion: Combi-bolter 2
Total: 80
Chaos Space Marines (x10) 65
+Autocannon 10
+Icon of Vengence 5
+Champion: Chainsword 0
+Champion: Combi-bolter 2
Total: 80
Elites
Dark Disciples (2) 10
++Vanguard++
++Daemonkin Ritualists: Dark Apostles, Dark Disciples, Masters of Possession, Possessed, and Greater Possessed -1CP
HQ Master of Possession 90
+Force Stave 8
+Warptime (-1 CP for Chaos Familiar, replaces Smite or Possession depending on opponent)
+Powers: Mutated Invigoration, Possession, Smite
+Field Commander: Shepherd of the True Faith -1 CP Total: 98
Elite
Greater Possessed 70
Greater Possessed 70
Possessed (x20) 400
+Icon of Wrath 10
Total: 410
++Spearhead++
++Soulforged Pack: Warpsmith and Daemon Engine++ -1CP
HQ Lord Discordant on Helstalker 150
+Baleflamer 30
+Techno-virus Injector 0
+ Field Commander: Master of the Soul Forges -1CP
Total: 180
Heavy Support
Venomcrawler 130
Venomcrawler 130
Obliterators (2) 230
Total: 1996
CP: 10-5= 5CP
Deployment: Chaos Marines take objectives and provide rear support, Cultists screen Dark Apostle, Dark Disciples, Master of Possession Warlord and Obliterators to move up and to hold mid field objectives.
Lord Discordant takes one flank with the Daemon Engines while the other flank is taken by the Possessed Horde and their supporting units.
You’ve got your DA taking two prayers, neither of which are Dark Zealotry. You’ll have to pick one of +1 to hit or -1 to be hit, I’m afraid. (Surprised we didn’t get strats similar to Chaos Familiar for DA & MoPs.)
Daedalus81 wrote: This is my working list for my next ITC tournament. The PA Horde.
Am I just the right amount of crazy?
BLACK LEGION +5 CP Abaddon, WL, +2CP, DttFE 5+
Apostle, Disciples, -1 to hit (or 5++ vs DE / high AP armies), Veteran Raider
Exalted, Chainsword, Combibolter, Ghorisvex's Teeth
20 CSM, Chainswords, SLAANESH
19 CSM, Chainswords, SLAANESH
10 Cultists
5 Havocs, Flamer, 4 AC
RED CORSAIRS +8CP Sorcerer, Staff, Warptime, Delightful Agonies
Master of Executions
3x5 CSM, Combi-Bolter, Chaincannon
BLACK LEGION or NIGHT LORDS, HOST RAPTORIAL +1CP Chaos Jump Lord, Thunder Hammer, SLAANESH, Intoxicating Elixirs, Field Commander - Tip of the Claw
3x5 Warp Talons
1995 points.
Starting CP: 19
Extra Relics, Host Raptorial, Extra WL trait, Field Commander = 4CP
There is a large potential for negative leadership by switching to Nurgle icons and their -1 to hit spell as well as Night Lords plus a relic and possibly Haarken if you wanted to trade out the Havocs to fit him in.
This numbers below are not a representation of what WILL happen on the field, but an identifier of how much mileage one can get out.
- 20 CSM, +1A for outnumber, VotLW, 5+ DttFE, reroll hits and wounds (Abaddon & Exalted) - 61 * 1.333 * .888 * .75 * .333 = 18 wounds to any knight
- The exalted gets 6 S4 AP3 D2 attacks with a high chance for extra mortal wounds (and a good secondary target for VotLW).
- The jump lord gets 5 S10 thunderhammer swings and escorts the talons in to block any scary overwatch.
- The Apostle carried the Fallback and Charge trait so I can fallback past the screens and charge deeper in.
Does this list deal with eldar flyers well? Or with any of the nice ork lists? Similarly - doesn't abaddon die in two turns on average to 3 vindicares worth of fire? So if you go second you will likely get one turn of mileage - if you put him in DS you will lose the morale immunity and aura... Seems like it will be tricky. Also find it interesting you opted against the chain guns on the CSM as via mathhammer they appear somewhat efficient.
Daedalus81 wrote: This is my working list for my next ITC tournament. The PA Horde.
Am I just the right amount of crazy?
Spoiler:
BLACK LEGION +5 CP Abaddon, WL, +2CP, DttFE 5+ Apostle, Disciples, -1 to hit (or 5++ vs DE / high AP armies), Veteran Raider Exalted, Chainsword, Combibolter, Ghorisvex's Teeth 20 CSM, Chainswords, SLAANESH 19 CSM, Chainswords, SLAANESH 10 Cultists 5 Havocs, Flamer, 4 AC
RED CORSAIRS +8CP Sorcerer, Staff, Warptime, Delightful Agonies Master of Executions 3x5 CSM, Combi-Bolter, Chaincannon
BLACK LEGION or NIGHT LORDS, HOST RAPTORIAL +1CP Chaos Jump Lord, Thunder Hammer, SLAANESH, Intoxicating Elixirs, Field Commander - Tip of the Claw 3x5 Warp Talons
1995 points.
Starting CP: 19 Extra Relics, Host Raptorial, Extra WL trait, Field Commander = 4CP
There is a large potential for negative leadership by switching to Nurgle icons and their -1 to hit spell as well as Night Lords plus a relic and possibly Haarken if you wanted to trade out the Havocs to fit him in.
This numbers below are not a representation of what WILL happen on the field, but an identifier of how much mileage one can get out.
- 20 CSM, +1A for outnumber, VotLW, 5+ DttFE, reroll hits and wounds (Abaddon & Exalted) - 61 * 1.333 * .888 * .75 * .333 = 18 wounds to any knight - The exalted gets 6 S4 AP3 D2 attacks with a high chance for extra mortal wounds (and a good secondary target for VotLW). - The jump lord gets 5 S10 thunderhammer swings and escorts the talons in to block any scary overwatch. - The Apostle carried the Fallback and Charge trait so I can fallback past the screens and charge deeper in.
Crazy is a matter of perspective.
A melee jump troop list along with max-sized infantry units. Packs a lot of punch, but you need to get there. With little long-distance shooting, those Warp Talons are going to need to do a lot of work starting Turn 2.
I'd rather see Ghorisvex's Teeth on the Jump Lord along with a Chainsword and the Black Clad Brute Warlord Trait. His punch will increase dramatically. I'm currently running a Chainlord kitted out this way and he's doing an average of about 8 MW each game in addition to normal damage.
The Warp Talons should be the ones escorting him in, given they're the ones who are immune to overwatch the turn they arrive.
The big CSM blobs are what concern me. If you are counting on them to kill Knights, I fear they will get shot up long before they get near. Personally, I'm more a fan of MSUCSMs right now because it screws with split fire and leads to a lot of wasted shots. You might want to consider splitting them up more for this reason.
But no, this is not crazy. Probably wins you 3 out of 5 rounds, minimum.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/04/23 02:08:57
Does this list deal with eldar flyers well? Or with any of the nice ork lists? Similarly - doesn't abaddon die in two turns on average to 3 vindicares worth of fire? So if you go second you will likely get one turn of mileage - if you put him in DS you will lose the morale immunity and aura... Seems like it will be tricky. Also find it interesting you opted against the chain guns on the CSM as via mathhammer they appear somewhat efficient.
Orks, I think, will be hardest matchup.
Eldar flyers I ignore and go for scoring units and play to draw - talons and jump lord can go for them in a pinch and do fairly well, but if there's a half dozen? Not sure.
3 vindicares vs anything is a mess, but fortunately they don't seem to be popping up around here yet.
The big blobs of CSM are going to be running all the time and points were fairly tight. I have a few CCs with the 3x5 to hold my side of the table down.
A melee jump troop list along with max-sized infantry units. Packs a lot of punch, but you need to get there. With little long-distance shooting, those Warp Talons are going to need to do a lot of work starting Turn 2.
I'd rather see Ghorisvex's Teeth on the Jump Lord along with a Chainsword and the Black Clad Brute Warlord Trait. His punch will increase dramatically. I'm currently running a Chainlord kitted out this way and he's doing an average of about 8 MW each game in addition to normal damage.
The Warp Talons should be the ones escorting him in, given they're the ones who are immune to overwatch the turn they arrive.
The big CSM blobs are what concern me. If you are counting on them to kill Knights, I fear they will get shot up long before they get near. Personally, I'm more a fan of MSUCSMs right now because it screws with split fire and leads to a lot of wasted shots. You might want to consider splitting them up more for this reason.
But no, this is not crazy. Probably wins you 3 out of 5 rounds, minimum.
I'll check that loadout. It does sound tasty. I don't expect 20 CSM to make it to knights, but a bakers dozen plus characters should do well enough. I think it probably seals in Night Lords so that if I get poor run rolls I might be able to force enough guardsmen to flee with the warp talons.
I'll probably wither pretty hard on turn 3 if I don't gain enough ground.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/04/23 02:34:32
kaiseric wrote: So reaper chain cannon is better with csm instead of havoc because of short range?
It's just hard to get havocs in range safely, so a single cannon isn't a huge priority for your opponent, but is still effective overall.
Would be probably less of an issue if we could take more then 5 per squad....
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
You can take 2 chain cannons in a squad of 10 marines, gives you a lot of firepower in a squad that also can do dmg itself and soak up wounds. You can put them in red corsairs groups so if you lose too many extra wounds you can redeploy and get them back.
Havocs are better with heavy weapons that have massive range, they can walk out of los cover and get at least 1 good turn of shooting on top of using range to protect them.
I'm definitely for chaincannons in MSU chaos marine squads but I don't see how making them more vulnerable to focused fire by adding more bodies is a good idea. Even with some general buffs like red corsairs CSMs are still meh at best. Making them a bigger target does not seem wise.
kaiseric wrote: So reaper chain cannon is better with csm instead of havoc because of short range?
It's just hard to get havocs in range safely, so a single cannon isn't a huge priority for your opponent, but is still effective overall.
Stick 2x5 havocs with chaincannons in a terrax pattern assault drill, add a psyker with prescience, a lord to re-roll 1s, deepstrike, disembark, cast prescience, shoot, use endless cacophony to shoot again with the prescienced unit, 120 shots, 80 of them hitting on 2s
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/04/23 17:52:04
kaiseric wrote: So reaper chain cannon is better with csm instead of havoc because of short range?
It's just hard to get havocs in range safely, so a single cannon isn't a huge priority for your opponent, but is still effective overall.
Stick 2x5 havocs with chaincannons in a terrax pattern assault drill, add a psyker with prescience, a lord to re-roll 1s, deepstrike, disembark, cast prescience, shoot, use endless cacophony to shoot again with the prescienced unit, 120 shots, 80 of them hitting on 2s
Is it worth it to add 134 points to an expensive bomb that will be murdered immediately afterwards?
kaiseric wrote: So reaper chain cannon is better with csm instead of havoc because of short range?
It's just hard to get havocs in range safely, so a single cannon isn't a huge priority for your opponent, but is still effective overall.
Stick 2x5 havocs with chaincannons in a terrax pattern assault drill, add a psyker with prescience, a lord to re-roll 1s, deepstrike, disembark, cast prescience, shoot, use endless cacophony to shoot again with the prescienced unit, 120 shots, 80 of them hitting on 2s
Is it worth it to add 134 points to an expensive bomb that will be murdered immediately afterwards?
If you have the right targets, you're likely killing pretty much their points' worth – taking out roughly 450 points of enemy should be doable. And if your bomb becomes the target of your opponent's wrath afterwards, it's diverting enemy fire away from what's left of the other three quarters of your army (assuming 2000 points here). Failing prescience, or having it denied, will make Heretic Timmy do sad face though, unless your dice like you.
Edit: I just checked out the assault drill. WTF? 134 points with default loadout? If that's not grossly undercosted, I really don't know. T8 3+ that creates a 15" scare zone around it (you don't want that thing in close combat with any of your expensive multi-wound units). I dig it.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/04/23 18:41:50
Bharring wrote: At worst, you'll spend all your time and money on a hobby you don't enjoy, hate everything you're doing, and drive no value out of what should be the best times of your life.
kaiseric wrote: So reaper chain cannon is better with csm instead of havoc because of short range?
It's just hard to get havocs in range safely, so a single cannon isn't a huge priority for your opponent, but is still effective overall.
Stick 2x5 havocs with chaincannons in a terrax pattern assault drill, add a psyker with prescience, a lord to re-roll 1s, deepstrike, disembark, cast prescience, shoot, use endless cacophony to shoot again with the prescienced unit, 120 shots, 80 of them hitting on 2s
Is it worth it to add 134 points to an expensive bomb that will be murdered immediately afterwards?
If you have the right targets, you're likely killing pretty much their points' worth – taking out roughly 450 points of enemy should be doable. And if your bomb becomes the target of your opponent's wrath afterwards, it's diverting enemy fire away from what's left of the other three quarters of your army (assuming 2000 points here). Failing prescience, or having it denied, will make Heretic Timmy do sad face though, unless your dice like you.
I follow your logic. So, what are the big targets we're looking for? Guard chaff waves, GSC (would there be enough within range?), Nurglings/plaguebearers. With the 9" restriction on the termite, I'm trying to think of how many a 24" bubble could realistically reach. I can't recall, could you warptime the havocs after disembarking for more range?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/04/23 18:40:14
Bharring wrote: At worst, you'll spend all your time and money on a hobby you don't enjoy, hate everything you're doing, and drive no value out of what should be the best times of your life.
the_Jakman wrote: Hey my dudes, quick rules clarification here, is there any reason I can't do the following? This is for a distraction defiler turn 1.
You can do that with the LOD as well, just not with the smoke. And one he is in combat, less likely to get sniped/killed. Of course unless they want to kill him, at which point all the other machines are ready to pounce. It's a trap.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/04/23 19:41:51
Gordon Shumway wrote: You can do that with the LOD as well, just not with the smoke. And one he is in combat, less likely to get sniped/killed. Of course unless they want to kill him, at which point all the other machines are ready to pounce. It's a trap.
Yea, venomcrawlers are brilliant for this setup since their gun is assault and can still shoot.
Is the Indomitable WL trait for Black Legion only?
Looking to Do a Red Corsairs Soulforged Pack with two LoD, one with the Indomitable WL trait, and the second with the Field Commander to get he soulforged WL trait.
I'm struggling to see why you would want to take 20 csm with chainsaws over beserkers, who just seem to do the job better, for less points, and less Cp needed?
mrtomski wrote: I'm struggling to see why you would want to take 20 csm with chainsaws over beserkers, who just seem to do the job better, for less points, and less Cp needed?
You wouldn't. You can make an okayish version with chosen but again, might as well take berserkers.
With 20 CSM with chain swords, you can lose most of them and then bring the whole unit back again. Something you cannot do with Berserkers. Also you can start them on the table and use the strat to pull them off and put them 9 inches away from your opponent. It is an instant threat that can do some heavy work and cant rightly be ignored.
KnightScion wrote: With 20 CSM with chain swords, you can lose most of them and then bring the whole unit back again. Something you cannot do with Berserkers. Also you can start them on the table and use the strat to pull them off and put them 9 inches away from your opponent. It is an instant threat that can do some heavy work and cant rightly be ignored.
40 S4 AP0 D1 attacks, hitting on a 3+ against most things.
Against...
GEQs-You kill 12
MEQs-4 and a half wounds
TEQs-You kill 1
Rhino-Just under 3 wounds
Leman Russ or IK-1 and a half wounds
The ONLY real threat that unit poses is the ability to tie stuff up.
Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne!
KnightScion wrote: With 20 CSM with chain swords, you can lose most of them and then bring the whole unit back again. Something you cannot do with Berserkers. Also you can start them on the table and use the strat to pull them off and put them 9 inches away from your opponent. It is an instant threat that can do some heavy work and cant rightly be ignored.
Unless I'm mistaken you are talking about alpha legion strat + red corsair strat, which would be mutually exclusive.
Also you need something to stop moral from destroying them.
Just cant see it being that good, beserkers give you more for less, yes you can't spend 3 cp to bring them back, but you can use those spare points and cp on other things.
Onto another point, I'm looking at the kytan, I think he's overpriced but probably can be buffed to be worth his points.
What do we have which is good at clearing screens t1? I was thinking some bikers, but do we have anything better? (Would need to be able to get in range t1 to make the cut). I cant think of anything which is particularly cheap with loads of shots.
