Chaos Marines Tactica [8th Edition]

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**sturguard**

So I was planning on doing this- Lindsay there shouldnt be anything to FAQ correct?

Supreme Command (this will be the Soulforged Pack)
Kytan
Daemon Prince
Lord Discordant
Lord Discordant

Red Corsairs or Flawless Host?
Huron
Master of Possession
2x5 csm with autocannon
10 csm with 2 rotorcannons
1 unit of havocs, 4 lascannons
2 oblits
2 venomcrawlers

Look good?

**Drudge Dreadnought**

sturguard wrote:
So I was planning on doing this- Lindsay there shouldnt be anything to FAQ correct?

Supreme Command (this will be the Soulforged Pack)
Kytan
Daemon Prince
Lord Discordant
Lord Discordant

Red Corsairs or Flawless Host?
Huron
Master of Possession
2x5 csm with autocannon
10 csm with 2 rotorcannons
1 unit of havocs, 4 lascannons
2 oblits
2 venomcrawlers

Look good?

There's not any point in having the second detachment be Flawless Host. None of those units benefit from it's trait or strat.
10 CSM isn't a great idea due to morale. Might be better to do 3 units of 5 with chain cannons.

**sturguard**

Ah you are right, I thought flawless Host would affect the CSM, Havoc's etc. The daemon prince should be in there for sure. Now I am looking at some helbrutes instead.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ok so it would look more like this.

Supreme Command, Soul Forged
Kytan
LD
LD

Then a brigade, need to figure out which works the best.

**ClockworkZion**

So I'm taking the plunge back into Chaos Marines, starting with a Shadowspear box (ordered for stuff I need for my Black Templars (Suppressors namely)) because the models are starting to finally show the same level of detail I like on the Raptors.

So I'm loving the new stuff, and the detachments look great only I'm the kind of idiot who likes the Word Bearer models. And the kind of idiot who likes matching my paint scheme and rules up. So I won't be using the new Black Legion stuff or straying into mechanically better rules. So, excluding switching the Legion Rules is a good way to take the army from the Shadowspear box?

If it helps, I'm already looking at adding a Lord Discodant because the model is cool and putting daemons in things seems ver Word Bearers to me, but I don't really have a lot of other ideas since Possessed are pants.

**Lemondish**

Eldenfirefly wrote:
Erm, I am not sure if you can get the Kytan Ravager into a soulforged detachment which also has a venomcrawler and a maulerfiend.

Either you go with a batallion or spearhead. Then you can have LD, Venomcrawler, and mauler fiend in them as part of a soulforged pack detachment. But then your Kytan Ravager has to be in a seperate super heavy auxilliary detachment, and will not be part of that soul forged detachment.

Or, you have a supreme command detachment. And you put your LD and Kytan Ravager into that. And they can be in a soulforged detachment. But then, your maulerfiend and your venomcrawler will not be part of that detachment. Because a supreme command detachment cannot have heavy support.

You have to choose I am afraid. You can't have everything in the same detachment because the Kytan ravager is a superheavy while the venom crawler and the maulerfiend are heavy support choices. Actually, I would suggest putting the Kytan Ravager into a seperate superheavy Auxilliary detachment. Just cast warp time on him. That way, you won't waste his guns. Those 8 shots can do a lot of damage. They are str 8 and d2 each. If you use the soulforged pack strategem to make him advance 2d6 and charge, its great, but then you can't shoot your guns because they are heavy, they are not assault. Warptiming a Kytan ravager is probably going to achieve the same exact result (turn 1 charge) plus you still get to use your guns.

Your venomcrawler benefits alot more from the advance and charge strategem because its guns are assault. So, the venomcrawler can move advance, still shoot all its weapons, and then charge into combat. I think both Kytan Ravager and Lord of Skulls have to be Khorne. They are Khorne Daemon Engines, if I am not wrong. In any case, its not like you can use cacophony on them just because they are slanaash. Cacophony strategem can only be used on infantry units.

Honestly, if you want to further buff them, its with stuff like auras, psychic. The key strategem that works on them (regardless of mark) is daemonforge strategem, and that's probably all you will ever need. The only protective strategem I know of is the iron within iron without strategem that the iron warriors legion has. It gives your Kytan ravager or LOS a 6+ FNP when you activate it. Believe me, on a titanic engine that has over 20 wounds, a 6+ FNP can end up saving quite a few wounds if your opponent focus fire on it. It does require you to go Iron warriors though for at least your Kytan Ravager.

It's an extra CP, but run two Detachments as specialist.

**Snugiraffe**

How does the takes half damage rule actually work in detail?
Do you work out the damage a unit has inflicted and then halve it or do you halve the damage each failed save lets through?

Really, what I want to know is does the rule have no effect whatsoever on weapons that only cause 1 damage?

**orangebrushminiatures**

Been running 3x quad heavy bolter rapier battery the last few months with great success, battlescribe has it range 36" but the forgeworld index is 48", did I miss an faq change to this maybe in the loyalist version of the weapon? 36" would be more in line with traditional heavy bolters so it might just be battlescribe assuming

**mrtomski**

Snugiraffe wrote:
How does the takes half damage rule actually work in detail?
Do you work out the damage a unit has inflicted and then halve it or do you halve the damage each failed save lets through?

Really, what I want to know is does the rule have no effect whatsoever on weapons that only cause 1 damage?

It halves damage rounding up, so 0.5 becomes 1 dmg
So a thunder hammer hit will be 2 dmg (1.5 rounding up).

Unless someone tells me I'm wrong I'd half each attack, so if you got hit by 2 Las cannon hits I'd half each of the damage rolls separately. Which unfortunately is worse than totally the damage and then halving.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
So I'm thinking about the master of possession as a support for a deamon engine heavy list, he can use sacrifice to heal de wounds at 18 inch range, which would be in addition to regeneration and any heals I can get off from a warpsmith.

In addition to that he can either have the rerolls aura or the + save aura, I'd really like the save aura except once again I'm not sure how he can keep up with my guys running up the board. Thoughts?

**ClockworkZion**

If he's just being used for his psychic powers you can advanve him and still cast your power, just move him first so you can plan the rest of your movement around him.

Alternatively, use him to support some ranged Daemon engines instead.

**JNAProductions**

mrtomski wrote:
Snugiraffe wrote:
How does the takes half damage rule actually work in detail?
Do you work out the damage a unit has inflicted and then halve it or do you halve the damage each failed save lets through?

Really, what I want to know is does the rule have no effect whatsoever on weapons that only cause 1 damage?

It halves damage rounding up, so 0.5 becomes 1 dmg
So a thunder hammer hit will be 2 dmg (1.5 rounding up).

Unless someone tells me I'm wrong I'd half each attack, so if you got hit by 2 Las cannon hits I'd half each of the damage rolls separately. Which unfortunately is worse than totally the damage and then halving.

That's accurate.

1 damage does 1 wound.
2 damage does 1 wound.
3 damage does 2 wounds.

So on and so forth.

**Azuza001**

Make him mark of nurgle for further fun. Miasma + dark apostle for -2 to hit, grandfathers blessing for d3 wounds healed, you can make the guy an unstoppable force to be reconed with if kitted out properly. Add a few other big toys near him and leave your opponent with no good options to kill

**KnightScion**

I am really starting to come around to 10 man CSM with two Chain guns and a Storm bolter. Three of these as troops as very strong. 8 wounds before you lose the chainguns. Put them on objectives in cover and let them spray anything that gets within 24. it is still 16 shots plus 18 bolter shots at 24 inches. And can still EC them and it would still be worth it. in a Red Corsairs list for Extra CP. And you can still field Havocs as well. This is a great support list for most armies.

I was also thinking A LD with Indomitable WL Trait and Mecha Tendrils in a soulforged pack mark of Nurgle is very decent, Next to a Second LD field commander with the soulforged WL trait makes them very nasty and really makes target priority difficult if backed up bt more Daemon engines.

**Formosa**

Tried out my double lord discordent and triple blood slaughterers list today and suffice to say it wrecks face very easily, damn nasty part of the list.

**Gordon Shumway**

Lemondish wrote:
Eldenfirefly wrote:
Erm, I am not sure if you can get the Kytan Ravager into a soulforged detachment which also has a venomcrawler and a maulerfiend.

Either you go with a batallion or spearhead. Then you can have LD, Venomcrawler, and mauler fiend in them as part of a soulforged pack detachment. But then your Kytan Ravager has to be in a seperate super heavy auxilliary detachment, and will not be part of that soul forged detachment.

Or, you have a supreme command detachment. And you put your LD and Kytan Ravager into that. And they can be in a soulforged detachment. But then, your maulerfiend and your venomcrawler will not be part of that detachment. Because a supreme command detachment cannot have heavy support.

You have to choose I am afraid. You can't have everything in the same detachment because the Kytan ravager is a superheavy while the venom crawler and the maulerfiend are heavy support choices. Actually, I would suggest putting the Kytan Ravager into a seperate superheavy Auxilliary detachment. Just cast warp time on him. That way, you won't waste his guns. Those 8 shots can do a lot of damage. They are str 8 and d2 each. If you use the soulforged pack strategem to make him advance 2d6 and charge, its great, but then you can't shoot your guns because they are heavy, they are not assault. Warptiming a Kytan ravager is probably going to achieve the same exact result (turn 1 charge) plus you still get to use your guns.

Your venomcrawler benefits alot more from the advance and charge strategem because its guns are assault. So, the venomcrawler can move advance, still shoot all its weapons, and then charge into combat. I think both Kytan Ravager and Lord of Skulls have to be Khorne. They are Khorne Daemon Engines, if I am not wrong. In any case, its not like you can use cacophony on them just because they are slanaash. Cacophony strategem can only be used on infantry units.

Honestly, if you want to further buff them, its with stuff like auras, psychic. The key strategem that works on them (regardless of mark) is daemonforge strategem, and that's probably all you will ever need. The only protective strategem I know of is the iron within iron without strategem that the iron warriors legion has. It gives your Kytan ravager or LOS a 6+ FNP when you activate it. Believe me, on a titanic engine that has over 20 wounds, a 6+ FNP can end up saving quite a few wounds if your opponent focus fire on it. It does require you to go Iron warriors though for at least your Kytan Ravager.

It's an extra CP, but run two Detachments as specialist.

Unfortunately, you can't run the same specialist detatchment twice. Pg 160 of Vigilus "Each Specialist Detatchment Strategum can only be used once per battle".

**Eldenfirefly**

Hmm, I am liking the fact that LD has a autocannon with 48 inch range and venom crawler's shooting is not bad too. The defiler battle cannon has a range of 72 inches! And LD improves all the daemon engine's shooting to BS 3+ if they stand still.

Don't get me wrong, it won't be the shootiest army for sure. But its actually a very flexible army. If you run into a melee type army with very little guns, or with short range guns. You have the option to stand back, stand still and rain down fire on the on charging enemy. Then when they are close enough, your daemon engines can launch a charge straight down their throats.

On the other hand, if you face a shootier army. Then by all means, run up the daemon engines, while still firing, but with less accuracy. But now you are in opponent's face as soon as turn 1 to 2.

Its the tactical flexibility that's kinda appealing right now to me. And add one MOP into the mix, and the multiplier effect will be huge because now the MOP's spells will be buffing multiple daemon engines.

The idea of Defilers, Venomcrawlers, LDs all with a 4++ save from cursed earth, and shooting at at least BS 3+ with a reroll of 1 to hit and wound from infernal power is very tasty.

And a defiler with battle cannon, havoc launcher and twin lascannon is actually a pretty shooty platform. And a venomcrawler has 2d3 str 8 shots too. They are actually not bad at shooting really, especially if they are buffed by LD and MOP nearby.

**Azuza001**

So here is a question. Does the lord discordant buff himself for the +1 to hit? I am pretty sure he does so if you give him the -1 to bs / +1 to ap relic his autocannon still hits on 2's but is 2 shots at str 7 ap-2 2dmg, thats pretty nice.

**Tazberry**

Eldenfirefly wrote:
Hmm, I am liking the fact that LD has a autocannon with 48 inch range and venom crawler's shooting is not bad too. The defiler battle cannon has a range of 72 inches! And LD improves all the daemon engine's shooting to BS 3+ if they stand still.

Don't get me wrong, it won't be the shootiest army for sure. But its actually a very flexible army. If you run into a melee type army with very little guns, or with short range guns. You have the option to stand back, stand still and rain down fire on the on charging enemy. Then when they are close enough, your daemon engines can launch a charge straight down their throats.

On the other hand, if you face a shootier army. Then by all means, run up the daemon engines, while still firing, but with less accuracy. But now you are in opponent's face as soon as turn 1 to 2.

Its the tactical flexibility that's kinda appealing right now to me. And add one MOP into the mix, and the multiplier effect will be huge because now the MOP's spells will be buffing multiple daemon engines.

The idea of Defilers, Venomcrawlers, LDs all with a 4++ save from cursed earth, and shooting at at least BS 3+ with a reroll of 1 to hit and wound from infernal power is very tasty.

And a defiler with battle cannon, havoc launcher and twin lascannon is actually a pretty shooty platform. And a venomcrawler has 2d3 str 8 shots too. They are actually not bad at shooting really, especially if they are buffed by LD and MOP nearby.

Venomcrawler only has D3 shoots bit still. A Herald or greater possesed and we will wound a Knight on 3+.

**Azuza001**

Venom has 2d3. They have 2 guns each

**bullyboy**

I don't own Daemons codex so what is the deal with Heralds?

**Azuza001**

Heralds give deamons of the same mark as them +1 str while within 6". If the deamon herald is in a detachment that is mono god then they also produce a loci ability to give to deamons within 6".

Khorne is reroll failed charges
Slaanesh is advance and charge
Nurgle is... something? I dont play nurgle deamons so I don't remember.
Tzeentch is supposed to make them harder to hit in cc, but it does it in such a poor way its useless.

**Tazberry**

Oh. I see my miss there. Didn’t see they had 2 cannons each.

Nurgle loci is 6” as the other and on a wound roll of 6+ you do 1 additional wound.

Tzeentch is stupid. Roll 2D6, discard the highest and any roll before modifiers is the same it’s a miss. Also only in the fight phase.

When I get my 2 LD and another maulerfiend I will try out a list with slaanesh daemons and some engines for that sweet T1 charges. Also trying too fit in purge legion havocs so I can shoot into a fight.

**JNAProductions**

Tazberry wrote:
Oh. I see my miss there. Didn’t see they had 2 cannons each.

Nurgle loci is 6” as the other and on a wound roll of 6+ you do 1 additional wound.

Tzeentch is stupid. Roll 2D6, discard the highest and any roll before modifiers is the same it’s a miss. Also only in the fight phase.

When I get my 2 LD and another maulerfiend I will try out a list with slaanesh daemons and some engines for that sweet T1 charges. Also trying too fit in purge legion havocs so I can shoot into a fight.

1 extra DAMAGE, not additional wound.

So if your Lord DIscordant is by a Poxbringer (the Nurgle Herald) and scores a 6 to-wound with his Autocannon, it's damage 3 for that one shot.

**lindsay40k**

JNAProductions wrote:
Tazberry wrote:
Oh. I see my miss there. Didn’t see they had 2 cannons each.

Nurgle loci is 6” as the other and on a wound roll of 6+ you do 1 additional wound.

Tzeentch is stupid. Roll 2D6, discard the highest and any roll before modifiers is the same it’s a miss. Also only in the fight phase.

When I get my 2 LD and another maulerfiend I will try out a list with slaanesh daemons and some engines for that sweet T1 charges. Also trying too fit in purge legion havocs so I can shoot into a fight.

1 extra DAMAGE, not additional wound.

So if your Lord DIscordant is by a Poxbringer (the Nurgle Herald) and scores a 6 to-wound with his Autocannon, it's damage 3 for that one shot.

True, though a Daemon Prince with wings will do that and be able to keep up with a death robot jamboree. Rerolls are nice, as well - only one of them can Daemon Forge, after all

**Red Corsair**

I only played a single game with 3 lord discordants and two maulers and two venom crawlers. The three LD had 2 in the soulforged pack and one in a battalion with huron with warp time. So I took the talisman of BBlood on one and used the strat to advance and charge on the second while I warp timed the third. All three easily made turn on charges.

I also took baleflamers. If your advancing and charging the auto canon is cheaper but it is also dead points spent. What you learn quickly is these guys are fast, but they still get boned by terrain pretty badly, especially when your running a train of demon engines. I think the baleflamer is too valuable in that it gives them a threat to things in upper levels and ruins. The baleflamer is nasty verse anything with two wounds.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
I'll add that I think ideally you only want two of these guys, and you want ta pair pf princes rolling in with them. Although they hit on 2's it sucks rolling those 1's and the princes can hide behind them and hit targets in ruins and upper floors. It also opens up critical powers which you cna easily keep up in range with.

**Eldenfirefly**

Red Corsair wrote:
I only played a single game with 3 lord discordants and two maulers and two venom crawlers. The three LD had 2 in the soulforged pack and one in a battalion with huron with warp time. So I took the talisman of BBlood on one and used the strat to advance and charge on the second while I warp timed the third. All three easily made turn on charges.

I also took baleflamers. If your advancing and charging the auto canon is cheaper but it is also dead points spent. What you learn quickly is these guys are fast, but they still get boned by terrain pretty badly, especially when your running a train of demon engines. I think the baleflamer is too valuable in that it gives them a threat to things in upper levels and ruins. The baleflamer is nasty verse anything with two wounds.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
I'll add that I think ideally you only want two of these guys, and you want ta pair pf princes rolling in with them. Although they hit on 2's it sucks rolling those 1's and the princes can hide behind them and hit targets in ruins and upper floors. It also opens up critical powers which you cna easily keep up in range with.

Thanks for the feedback! This was why I was always kinda iffy about mass daemon engines for the T1 charge. I always felt that terrain would cause lots of bottlenecks everywhere. And its made worse because you keep on wanting to place daemon engines within 6 inches of the LD to get his aura. Opponent just needs to place two throw away units at key bottle necks and you are held up for one turn. He keeps on doing that and until he runs out of throw away units, you will never get past the bottleneck. And all the while the rest of his army is shooting you.

**l0k1**

So is running Alpha Legion and using Forward Operatives to get obliterators/havocs up the board and using endless cacophony still viable?

**ClockworkZion**

l0k1 wrote:
So is running Alpha Legion and using Forward Operatives to get obliterators/havocs up the board and using endless cacophony still viable?

Yeah, it's still be viable, but last I saw the beta rule version of Forward Operatives becomes a scout move before turn 1 begins.

**l0k1**

ClockworkZion wrote:
l0k1 wrote:
So is running Alpha Legion and using Forward Operatives to get obliterators/havocs up the board and using endless cacophony still viable?

Yeah, it's still be viable, but last I saw the beta rule version of Forward Operatives becomes a scout move before turn 1 begins.

Since it's before the 1st turn begins, those models don't count as having moved for shooting purposes correct?

**p5freak**

l0k1 wrote:
ClockworkZion wrote:
l0k1 wrote:
So is running Alpha Legion and using Forward Operatives to get obliterators/havocs up the board and using endless cacophony still viable?

Yeah, it's still be viable, but last I saw the beta rule version of Forward Operatives becomes a scout move before turn 1 begins.

Since it's before the 1st turn begins, those models don't count as having moved for shooting purposes correct?

Yes.

**Not Online!!!**

p5freak wrote:
l0k1 wrote:
ClockworkZion wrote:
l0k1 wrote:
So is running Alpha Legion and using Forward Operatives to get obliterators/havocs up the board and using endless cacophony still viable?

Yeah, it's still be viable, but last I saw the beta rule version of Forward Operatives becomes a scout move before turn 1 begins.

Since it's before the 1st turn begins, those models don't count as having moved for shooting purposes correct?

Yes.

Which is entirely irrelevant due to havocs ignoring the penalty for moving.