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Sweet man! Thanks. I thought I remembered, but wanted to make sure! Appreciate it.

It's important to note, though, they are still just CSMs and for the same cost you can split to 2 units of 5 for less chance of being focused down.

I’m going Flawless Host (Slaanesh). So Endless Cacophany on a squad with two chain cannons. It ties in with the 2k list I posted; that squad is relatively safe since Mortarion, Magnus, a Kytan and two Daemon Princes are in the face of the enemy right away. The ten man and two five man squads are there to snag objectives and EC any squad they need to. I thought about 4 squads of 5, but felt two 5s and a 10 would be more suitable for the purpose of EC. Unless I have the points to do 3 squads of 5 with no upgrades at all and a squad of 5 havocs (doubtful). If I can squeeze 5 havocs in at 120pts, then I’m golden. Actually, I’m not even sure I can do exactly what I have planned; I might need to drop one of the 5 man squads down to a smaller heavy/special weapon. I gotta consult the book later. I might be a couple points over currently.


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Okay, so I updated my digital codex and I can’t find the renegade stuff at all; where is the Flawless Host info?

It's all in vigilus ablaze

I thought they told us we didn’t need Vigilus Ablaze if we had the digital HA codex?! Dammit.

So boosting my Daemon Engines for my Iron Warriors. Have a Lord Discordant on the way, 1 maulerfiend and 1 venomcrawler. Thinking of adding 1 more engine to the mix to move up field with a greater possessed tagging along. I don't want another discordant (although I can certainly understand redundancy) so trying to decide between mauler and venom (or possibly defiler). I'm trying to figure out why the venom costs almost the same as a mauler which looks objectively better in every way. Yes, it doesn't have shooting, but if advancing, how good are those VC weapons anyway? Of course, I can grab a VC much cheaper than another mauler but that's not the only consideration.
Any reason why i should take another VC instead of a mauler?

 timetowaste85 wrote:
I thought they told us we didn’t need Vigilus Ablaze if we had the digital HA codex?! Dammit.

You're not the only one to fall into that trap.

 bullyboy wrote:
So boosting my Daemon Engines for my Iron Warriors. Have a Lord Discordant on the way, 1 maulerfiend and 1 venomcrawler. Thinking of adding 1 more engine to the mix to move up field with a greater possessed tagging along. I don't want another discordant (although I can certainly understand redundancy) so trying to decide between mauler and venom (or possibly defiler). I'm trying to figure out why the venom costs almost the same as a mauler which looks objectively better in every way. Yes, it doesn't have shooting, but if advancing, how good are those VC weapons anyway? Of course, I can grab a VC much cheaper than another mauler but that's not the only consideration.
Any reason why i should take another VC instead of a mauler?

I would say real world $$$ cost as you can pickup a VC for almost a third of a Mauler on eBay.

That said, dual VCs with a Mauler and lord discordant is flexible and can handle both CC and shooting. If you only take one VC you are so titled towards CC you might as well just run three maulers.

I mean, the two are painfully similar.

The excruciating cannons are basically 2d3 ranged shots to make up for the loss of 4 tendril attacks. So you get to shoot those the turn you spend moving up, unless you think you're getting a first turn charge (possible, to be sure, but hardly a guarantee). The downside is its main 4 attacks are strength 8 vs strength 14 and it has 2 fewer wounds.

I don't think there is a meaningful difference between the two. I think the defiler is the much harder one to figure out. I tend to think if you're going to try for first turn charges en mass, I like the mauler fiend better. If you're aiming to hit on second turn, I'm bigger on the defiler + venom crawler.

drakerocket wrote:
I mean, the two are painfully similar.

The excruciating cannons are basically 2d3 ranged shots to make up for the loss of 4 tendril attacks. So you get to shoot those the turn you spend moving up, unless you think you're getting a first turn charge (possible, to be sure, but hardly a guarantee). The downside is its main 4 attacks are strength 8 vs strength 14 and it has 2 fewer wounds.

I don't think there is a meaningful difference between the two. I think the defiler is the much harder one to figure out. I tend to think if you're going to try for first turn charges en mass, I like the mauler fiend better. If you're aiming to hit on second turn, I'm bigger on the defiler + venom crawler.

If the rule of 3 didn't exist, I'd take 6 over 3 and 3 maulers. Having all of that extra shooting is pretty huge with a herald nearby.

Venom crawlers are definatly different from maulerfiends. That being said there is something amazing about advancing a maulerfiend up next to a herald of slaanesh on steed and getting those t1 charges. Had a maulerfiend just destroy an enemy redemptor dreadnought t1, freaked my opponent out so his turn he spent everything firing at it and barely killed it.

If you want pure melee its mauler. If you want pure shooting its forge. And if you want a mix you have vemoms or defilers.

I suppose the fact that there is no clear winner among them might be something we call 'balance'....

So where does the Defiler fit in compared to a Mauler?

It's tougher, slower, better against vehicles because it hits harder and with higher strength. Without good guns it's pretty similar points. I actually think smoke launchers on the cheap version are actually a pretty legit boon.

You can also kit it out to be pretty decent at shooting. Even moving up if it's near a LD you can daemonforge one with double lascannons for some pretty legit anti-vehicle.

Is the gatling cannon really 184 pts on a Lord of Skulls? Is a Kytan cheaper? Whats the cost on a standard Kytan build?

Yes it is, and its worth every point. Last time i was at a friendly local tournament i ran it 4 times. First 2 with the skull cannon, second 2 with the gattling. That gattling cannon was crazy good, killing anything i targeted. The skull cannon actually kinda sucked. So yeah its expensive but its worth it.

drakerocket wrote:
It's tougher, slower, better against vehicles because it hits harder and with higher strength. Without good guns it's pretty similar points. I actually think smoke launchers on the cheap version are actually a pretty legit boon.

You can also kit it out to be pretty decent at shooting. Even moving up if it's near a LD you can daemonforge one with double lascannons for some pretty legit anti-vehicle.

Though now much better with lord discordants, defilers are... Odd. They arnt as fast as VCs or Maulers and don't shoot as well as forgefiends. They are kitted for both CC and shooting but essentially have to choose 1 at the sacrifice of the other. Perfect example being if you commit to CC and you advance then you can't shoot. If you commit to shooting, you are wasting great CC. You see the problem.

VCs get around this by having assault ranged weapons so can do both which is why I would take them over defilers for mixed roles. You won't auto-lose taking them of course but they exist in a strange space where there is a better generalist choice and better specialist choices.

 buddha wrote:

drakerocket wrote:
It's tougher, slower, better against vehicles because it hits harder and with higher strength. Without good guns it's pretty similar points. I actually think smoke launchers on the cheap version are actually a pretty legit boon.

You can also kit it out to be pretty decent at shooting. Even moving up if it's near a LD you can daemonforge one with double lascannons for some pretty legit anti-vehicle.

Though now much better with lord discordants, defilers are... Odd. They arnt as fast as VCs or Maulers and don't shoot as well as forgefiends. They are kitted for both CC and shooting but essentially have to choose 1 at the sacrifice of the other. Perfect example being if you commit to CC and you advance then you can't shoot. If you commit to shooting, you are wasting great CC. You see the problem.

VCs get around this by having assault ranged weapons so can do both when check is why I would take them over defilers for mixed roles.

If you’re taking Nurgle Defilers, and starting them near a Gnarlmaw, they can fire everything whilst Advancing. Sweet synergy with a LD and CD DP. Especially if you’re going Soulforged for the death robots all moving +2”.

drakerocket wrote:
I suppose the fact that there is no clear winner among them might be something we call 'balance'....

IMO, the clear winner is blood slaughterers. Better WS, better movement, more attacks. Only downside is it must be <khorne> and is forgeworld, so some might balk at it.

Yeah, the gatling hades cannon is expensive, but always bring that over the skull cannon thingy. I think its needs some sort of reduction in points, a single weapon should never ever cost 184 points. But oh well, we have to live with it.

What about the FW variant, the Kytan? Is it cheaper because it just has the gatling cannon and the cc weapon? Anyone have the cost on it- are the other stats the same?

I think the Kytan including all gear (it doesnt have switch options) is just 410 points. So if points is an issue, Kytan is definately the cheaper choice. This is kinda why I hope chapter approved or the FAQ will lower the points of LOS. Compared to a Castellan as well as a Kytan, which has only 4 less hp than a LOS, the LOS is expensive (relatively).

Kytan has only 8 shots on its gun compared to the LOS's 12 shots, and doesn't have the stomach flamer cannon thingy. But it has a 2d6 advance. It doesn't get more attacks as it degrades like the LOS, but it has less wounds than the LOS 28W and also has a 5++. At top tier, its just as choppy as a LOS in close combat.

A castellan is far more shooty than either one. But not as good in close combat for sure. If you take a renegade Castellan, you don't get the house traits, strategems or IK relics, which are all key to what makes a Castellan so op. I would say for us chaos heretics, better to consider a renegade knight, double gun loadout. or a renegade gallant for choppy.

A renegade knight with double thermal cannons is a good platform for anti tank. Thats 2d6 str 9 melta shots at range 36. Not counting carapace weapons. And we can raise ion shields for 1 cp to 4++.

Of course, another point to consider is that a Kytan or LOS is so much fluffier and has better synergy to a chaos army. Because both benefit from the demonforge strategem. And also, you can run a supreme command detachment for 3 HQ and a lord of war. So, you can actually have a supreme command detachment with 3 Lord Discordants and 1 Kytan Raveger / LOS. Its a very nasty daemon engine contingent that would give your opponent pause as it charges up the board. It can form a soul forged pack detachment too. So now one of these daemon engines can advance and charge. There are all sorts of relics that your Lord discordantts can take to buff themselves. Including mecha serpants, intoxicating elixir, etc. You can go black legion for the halve all wounds warlord trait, or Brazen beasts so that you get the burning daemonheart strategem. roll a dice, one unit 1 inch away from your daemon engine either takes 1d3 mortal wounds or 3 mortal woudns depending on the d6 roll.

I think it really all depends on the rest of your army that you are thinking about forming. If you just want a hard to kill anti tank platform, just go renegade knight with double thermal cannons. If you want daemon engine theme, then yeah, LOS or Kytan Ravager is a much better choice.

Is that 410 pts with the Gatling Cannon or the base price?

sturguard wrote:
Is that 410 pts with the Gatling Cannon or the base price?

Includes the Kytan gatling cannon.

The Kytan is just flat out better once you factor in the cost. The LOS costs like 50% more points but doesn't offer 50% more. You can take nearly 2 more other daemon engines for the points difference. Having a super heavy on the field that can smash pretty much anything in 1 fight phase changes things a lot. Concentrating even more of your points into it isn't really efficient. And that 2d6 advance is great.

Kytan has 2D6 advance... and, if it’s taken as part of a Supreme Command Soulforged Pack, it can add +2 to that then pop a strat to charge after Advancing... okay, I’m sold

Also, Soulforged enables it to ignore its deteriorating profile. And whilst LOS’s 8A when near dead is fun, 4” move is a lot worse than 8”.

Both are pretty good candidates for Daemonic Strength, Kytan doesn’t necessarily need Warptime for early stomping.

 lindsay40k wrote:
Kytan has 2D6 advance... and, if it’s taken as part of a Supreme Command Soulforged Pack, it can add +2 to that then pop a strat to charge after Advancing... okay, I’m sold

Also, Soulforged enables it to ignore its deteriorating profile. And whilst LOS’s 8A when near dead is fun, 4” move is a lot worse than 8”.

Both are pretty good candidates for Daemonic Strength, Kytan doesn’t necessarily need Warptime for early stomping.

Ok so just looked up Kytan, and I think it was love at first sight.
I'd like to work this guy into a list with a venom, mauler, and LD. I'd previously drawn up a black legion list with them. The idea being to give black legion WL trait to LD and field commander to a warpsmith for the 2+ move.

My question is what detachment can I use to give them all soulforge?

Also I dont have much experience with khorne, I was planning on slanesh, so anything I can do to add survivability if I'm tied to Khorne keyword?

I'm thinking with the giant threat of the kytan, the ld will get less attention.

Erm, I am not sure if you can get the Kytan Ravager into a soulforged detachment which also has a venomcrawler and a maulerfiend.

Either you go with a batallion or spearhead. Then you can have LD, Venomcrawler, and mauler fiend in them as part of a soulforged pack detachment. But then your Kytan Ravager has to be in a seperate super heavy auxilliary detachment, and will not be part of that soul forged detachment.

Or, you have a supreme command detachment. And you put your LD and Kytan Ravager into that. And they can be in a soulforged detachment. But then, your maulerfiend and your venomcrawler will not be part of that detachment. Because a supreme command detachment cannot have heavy support.

You have to choose I am afraid. You can't have everything in the same detachment because the Kytan ravager is a superheavy while the venom crawler and the maulerfiend are heavy support choices. Actually, I would suggest putting the Kytan Ravager into a seperate superheavy Auxilliary detachment. Just cast warp time on him. That way, you won't waste his guns. Those 8 shots can do a lot of damage. They are str 8 and d2 each. If you use the soulforged pack strategem to make him advance 2d6 and charge, its great, but then you can't shoot your guns because they are heavy, they are not assault. Warptiming a Kytan ravager is probably going to achieve the same exact result (turn 1 charge) plus you still get to use your guns.

Your venomcrawler benefits alot more from the advance and charge strategem because its guns are assault. So, the venomcrawler can move advance, still shoot all its weapons, and then charge into combat. I think both Kytan Ravager and Lord of Skulls have to be Khorne. They are Khorne Daemon Engines, if I am not wrong. In any case, its not like you can use cacophony on them just because they are slanaash. Cacophony strategem can only be used on infantry units.

Honestly, if you want to further buff them, its with stuff like auras, psychic. The key strategem that works on them (regardless of mark) is daemonforge strategem, and that's probably all you will ever need. The only protective strategem I know of is the iron within iron without strategem that the iron warriors legion has. It gives your Kytan ravager or LOS a 6+ FNP when you activate it. Believe me, on a titanic engine that has over 20 wounds, a 6+ FNP can end up saving quite a few wounds if your opponent focus fire on it. It does require you to go Iron warriors though for at least your Kytan Ravager.

Let’s not forget that you can take two Soulforged Packs, and the SFP WT affects all Soulforged unit. This is a legit loadout:

Iron Warriors Supreme Command (Soulforged Pack -1CP):
Lord-Discordant
Lord-Discordant
Warpsmith (Field Commander -1CP)
Decimator
Kytan


Black Legion Spearhead (Soulforged Pack -1CP):
Lord Discordant (Warlord, Mechaserpents)
Maulerfiend
Defiler
Venomcrawler

All of these units benefit from the Warpsmith’s +2M aura, whatever the Legion. The Kytan can pop IW strat for 6+++.

You could even go HERETIC ASTARTES soup. Throw in a World Eater for 4+ defence against Magnus Smiting on a 14. Or make the Warpsmith Alpha Legion to mitigate snipers.


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do NOT throw a bucket of money at this build until we see where Chaos soup stands after the next FAQ.

You can only use each Specialist detachment stratagem once per battle , so no 2x Soulforged detachment unfortunately :-/