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 small_gods wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

Also i feel like -3 is still quite insane, i do hope they rein that in personally, i don't want to see another nerf for AL.

I feel like the nerf was more about denying a big alpha strike. If they're going to start nerfing -to hit modifiers they need to start with Aliatoc flyers that are -2 with no psychic or stratergems!

also true.

In the news they stated that Oblits retain their old codex price, i personally fully expect that to be a typo considering shadowspear, but if true, that would be huge.

Also cultists now lose traits, supposedly, well i mean now they are inferior to any human type troop, which feels bad i will be honest.

Discordant also got verfied as T6 12W , talk about a priority target.

We could always reach -2 by taking Alpha legion and casting Miasma. The problem was that there wasn't any infantry unit worth protecting to such a degree. Usually Nurgle CSM players had horde plague bearers. Even if they went a squad of 20 plague marines, then by this point you might as well go full Death Guard.

Now though, with the dark apostle given such a prayer, and possessed and obliterators buffed and can be part of special detachments, things are different. What's the point of protecting 20 marines? But protecting a unit of 3 oblits who can pump out 18 heavy shots per turn, or a big squad of possessed that can now be buffed to str 7 or even 8, where they can even start cutting up vehicles... now that changes everything !!

Oh wow, I just saw a video that had a quick run through of the new chaos codex. The new Havocs... @@ wow... They are toughness 5, and they can move and shoot heavy weapons without penalty. Also, they have a new Rotary chain cannon that shoots out 8 shots of str 5, AP -1, D1 at range 24 inches. That thing will murder chaff like nothing! 32 shots str 5 from a havoc squad packing 4. Cacophony to shoot twice for 64 str 5 shots at AP -1 !!!!

Yeah, new Havocs being locked at units of 5 is a bummer but it also means that investing in ways to protect them for a turn before they jump out and pump the field is an alternative to taking those 5 extra bodies. Ignoring the heavy weapon penalty means you could just plonk them in a transport and hop them out when needed. Toughness 5 helps a bit with keeping them safe. Between the Crown, prayers and psychic powers, there's a lot of means to protect them anyway.

Speaking of prayers, the new prayers from the Dark Apostle are amazing, have yet to see points on anything but the -1 to be hit prayer and the +1 to hit in shooting prayer are both fantastic. Also curious how Chaos gaining access to Thunder Hammers will impact character creation...

Not Online!!! wrote:

drakerocket wrote:
So quick scenario: 20 strong alpha legion possessed unit, starts off the game with a nurgle tree by them. 40 wounds guarded by -1 to hit 1+ saves. Even if you lose first turn that will be hard to shift. Starting on your turn give them another -1 to be hit from a nurgle spell, -1 to be hit from dark apostate....now they are immune to 4+ shooting and 3+ shooting hits them on 6s....

So now you have what makes all of the rest of it make sense: a walking wall of nearly invincible meat. Now you can foot slog all of those support characters behind them.

Well you can also spend some cp to move them up, get yourself also warptime and try to explain to your opponent wtf is going on.

then you face dark reapers and poof ur unit regardless -3 to be hit, vaporize and you invested zillions of points to do nothing

Chaos Terminators dropped 2 points per model (so still 2 PPM more than Loyalist Terminators) BUT they can now take Chainaxes for a super cheap melee weapon. Running sub-30 point Terminators is now an option!
Dark Apostle's points got jacked up a lot, and as expected his Disciples add a little bit on top of that; when running the Disciples, it totals up to a nearly 50% increase in cost. I think it's still worth it given how amazing the prayers are.
Seems like the ideal way to run the Lord Discordant is just with the Autocannon and Techno-virus Injector, both the Baleflamer and the Magma Cutter add a lot to his price.
Noctilith Crown is on the expensive side unfortunately.

Yeah, massive buff for terminators. its like 29 points for one with combi bolter and chain axe. It might actually be interesting to consider starting a squad on the board as a cheap distraction carnefix. Put a shooty reaper cannon on one guy along with the rest having combi bolters. Its a tough unit that only heavy or special weapons can bring down. It will laugh at ordinary bullets.

145pts for combi-chainaxe terms then? That's interesting...

Caederes wrote:
Chaos Terminators dropped 2 points per model (so still 2 PPM more than Loyalist Terminators) BUT they can now take Chainaxes for a super cheap melee weapon. Running sub-30 point Terminators is now an option!
Dark Apostle's points got jacked up a lot, and as expected his Disciples add a little bit on top of that; when running the Disciples, it totals up to a nearly 50% increase in cost. I think it's still worth it given how amazing the prayers are.
Seems like the ideal way to run the Lord Discordant is just with the Autocannon and Techno-virus Injector, both the Baleflamer and the Magma Cutter add a lot to his price.
Noctilith Crown is on the expensive side unfortunately.

CHAINAXE TERMINATORS?



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 blackmage wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

drakerocket wrote:
So quick scenario: 20 strong alpha legion possessed unit, starts off the game with a nurgle tree by them. 40 wounds guarded by -1 to hit 1+ saves. Even if you lose first turn that will be hard to shift. Starting on your turn give them another -1 to be hit from a nurgle spell, -1 to be hit from dark apostate....now they are immune to 4+ shooting and 3+ shooting hits them on 6s....

So now you have what makes all of the rest of it make sense: a walking wall of nearly invincible meat. Now you can foot slog all of those support characters behind them.

Well you can also spend some cp to move them up, get yourself also warptime and try to explain to your opponent wtf is going on.

then you face dark reapers and poof ur unit regardless -3 to be hit, vaporize and you invested zillions of points to do nothing

Unfortunate reality sadly.

yup, chain axe terminators are a thing now in CSM. Cheap as chips. Also, thunderhammer has appeared in our chaos armory. Maybe we will finally really get our own version of flying jump pack chaos lords wielding thunder hammers. I would love to see how my friends love being on the receiving end of their own smash captain shenenigans.

GMG has a full review of vigilus up.

Renegade chapters are pretty great, most of the specialist detachments are OK to meh. Black legion got a lot of stuff, but i hate how GW keeps pushing all these morale buffs...

Stolen from another poster on Chaos forum, heres a rundown of vigilus (poor formatting sorry):

I summarised most of the new Vigilus Ablaze stuff.... Long post incoming:
Chaos temrinators can now take chain axes.
T5 havocs that can move and shoot heavy weps with no pentalty (still 14pts base per model)Havocs can only be taken in squads of 5. No more ablative wounds with bolter guys.
Chaos lords and chosen can take thunder hammers.
Abaddon got no point increase or change to his abilities, just the statline and Drachnyen is now 3dmg flat.
Lord Discordant is 12 wounds, T6, 160pts at its lowest cost with an autocannon. 2+ save, gains a wound back each turn and he can heal himself because hes a warpsmith. 12 inch movement.(edited)
Noctilith Crown (stargate) has 24inch bubble, turns doubles rolls into perils for enemy psykers. 6 inch aura of 5++ (models in 6inches) and psykers reroll psychic tests. For turns 2 and 3 the aura range increases by 3 inches. Has a str 7 pistol at 6 inches.
Skull Altar- increases invulns for khorne daemon characters by 1 (max of 3++) gives +1 attack to khorne daemon infantry within 6, increases a characters locus ability to 12 inches and also applies a negative to enemy psychic tests. It can be summoned apparently.
Master of Executions-3.5 Missile launchers in pts, new Dark Apostle 5 Missile Launchers in pts.
Black Legion relic- Foe cleaver axe +3 str, d3 dmg, +1 to hit against imperium units(edited)
Chosen of the warmaster- turns a terminator champion into a "mini abbaddon" (take that how you will)
Chosen Enforcers Stratagem-1CP- autopass morale at 18inches on a unit of "Bringers of Despair"
Devastation Battery detachment- Obliterators, havocs, lord, warpsmiths. Armour bane ability (as previewed), Relic: Daemons eye, gives a unit in the detachment ignore cover once per turn.
punishing volley Stratagem- 1CP-End of your opponents first movement phase, if you didnt get first turn you get to shoot with a unit from this detachment
Cult of the Damned detachment-apostles, disciples, cultists. Warlord trait- reroll failed charges for detachment units within 6inches of him and you get a flamer book that deals d3 damage. 1cp stratagem that makes cultists immune to morale for the rest of the game if they kill a model in melee. Chorus of the true faith-1CP-gives +1 to prayer roll on apostle if cultists nearby (so you can get auto prayer if hes next to his disciples and you use this strat)
Daemonkin Ritualists detachment- Master of possession, apostles, disciples, greater possessed and possessed units. Warlord trait- 6inch aura of 6's to wound deal an additional mortal wound. Vessels of the neverborn-1CP-+1 str to a detachment unit within 6 of a Master of possession. 1CP- slay a posssessed model to gain d3 mortal wounds back to a character Relic- force staff-end of each fight phase, pick a unit withing 1 inch and they suffer a mortal wound.
god theres so much.....
Soulforged pack detachment- warpsmiths and daemon engine units. Warlord trait- +2 to movement of daemon engines within 6 of the warlord. Relic-special mechatendrils- 1 attack for each enemy within 1 inch of the bearer instead of just +2 attacks. 1CP- doubles wounds characteristic of daemon engine 1CP- Allows a daemon wngine to advance and charge
Host Raptoral- ALL Jump pack dudes. Warlord trait, add 2 to charge rolls made for friendly detachment units within 6 inches of the warlord. 1CP- reroll hits in melee for a unit 1CP- more leadership shenanigans (as previewed) Relic: Jump pack (I think?) on a 4+ any unit that is moved over in the movement or charge phases suffers d3 mortal wounds
Fallen Angels detachment-take as a vanguard detachment for Fallen. You can also take rhinos and chaos sorcerers in the detachment. - 1 CP- -1 to hit a unit -1CP-Ancient Emnity- anti-dark angel strat (no other info) Relic- Force Sword- normal stats but a 6 to wound becomes d6 damage.
Legion of Skulls- Only affects Blood Letters (both HQ and Troops). Warlord Trait- +1A base and +1A more if theres an enemy character within 6inches. Relic- Goreplate- Regains d3 wounds on a 4+ if you slay any enemy models (+2 to the roll if he slew a character) 1CP-Deals mortal wounds to something (details werent clear) 2CP- If you successfully charge a unit, then other units get +2 to their charge rolls on the same target
Mere mortals-Chaos Cultists cannot benefit from legion traits.
Black Legion- No real changes to their rules
1CP- Gives an unaligned unit all the chaos marks for a turn. 3CP- Garuntees control of an objective if a Black Legion unit is in range. Regardless of Obsec. 1CP- If a Black Legion outnumbers an enemy unit in CC, +1 attack in cc 1CP- +1Ld to non-Black Legion units within 6 inches of any Black Legion unit 1 CP- If you have a lord, daemon prince or abaddon as warlord, you can gives a warlord trait to a sorceror and apostle. Extra Relic stratagem. Relics: Chainsword- str user, -3AP, 2dmg, +2A. 6+ to wound deal an additional mortal wound. Helmet- -1 BS, +1AP Angelsbane- combi-bolter as previewed Cloak that gives +1A, +1STR, +1LD for each character you slay (stacking for the rest of the game) Leadership shenanigans trophy- +1LD to friendly BL units, -1 LD to enemy units within 6inches Power Sword- +1 STR, -3AP, 1dmg, +d6 attacks Warlord traits: -Fall back and charge -Take half damage from attacks -+1 STR and on a 4+ a charged unit takes d3 mortal wounds -D3 mortal wounds when you destroy a unit. -5+ to get a command point back when you use a stratagem -DTTFE procs on a 5 on him.
Renegade traits: (Preivewed ones ommitted) The Purge- Reroll to hit rolls against units that have lost 1 or more wounds this turn. The Scourge- Reroll 1s to hit in shooting or fighting + overwatch on 5+ Brazen Beasts- any wound roll of 6+ in melee when they have charged, been charged or HI'd gets -4AP Flawless Host- 6+ to hit in the fight phase gets another attack (stacks with DTTFE)
Renegade Warlord Traits: Red Corsairs-free relic and any time your warlord kills a character they get +1 Attack Crimson Slaughter- -1 Leadership to enemies in 6, increases to -2LD in 9 inches if he kills a character. The Purge-Rerolls 1s t wound and rerolls damage rolls. The Scourged-3inches makes units always fight last (like armor of russ) Brazen Beasts- +2 Str and Attacks every time you kill a character. Flawless Host-Gets 3 extra attacks when you roll a 6+ to hit.
Renegade Stratagems: (previewed ones omitted) Red Corsairs- 3CP-At the end of your movement phase, you can remove a red corsairs chaos space marine unit from the battlefield and place it wholly within 6inches of the edge of the battlefield, more than 9inches form enemy units at full strength. (Tide of traitors for chaos marines....No limit on number of times you can use it) Brazen Beasts-1CP-At the end of the fight phase pick an enemy unit within 1 inch of a brazen beasts daemon engine, roll a d6, on 2-4 it summons d3 mortal wounds, on a 5 or 6 it suffers 3 mortal wounds. Crimson Slaughter- At the start of the enemy shooting phase, when they shoot at one f your units pick a terrain piece and any enemy units within 3 inches of it get -1 to hit till the end of the phase. Flawless Host-1CP-Reroll failed hit rolls for a unit in melee for the phase.
Renegade Relics: Red Corsairs-special combi melta (str 9 meltagun) Crimson Slaughter- Power sword-+1 str, -3AP. If a model is slain in the fight phase then for the rest of the battle, it auto-wounds everything. The Purge- grenade- thrown 8 inches at a point. Roll a d6 for each unit within d6 inches of that points (subtracting 2 vs vehicles). on a 4+ that unit suffers d3 mortal wounds. The Scourged- Any time an enemy psyker manifests a power within 18inches, on a 5+ they suffer a mortal wound. Daemonflesh Plate- 2+ armour save, +1 movement and +1 attack. Flawless host- Cloak that gives +1Attack, increases aura range by 3 inches.

Apologies for the awful formatting....

Regarding the Lord Discordant I shared this in N&R and wanted to post it here as well

1 lord discordant can be a real bitch to deal with given these leaks. You can spend 1 CP to give him every mark, so he can then get all three god specific powers caston him, have an apostle give him a further -1 to hit, have a MOP give him +1 invuln save. He heals himself D3+1 and can have a MOP heal him a further 3 (2 if he uses the discordant for the sacrifice wound) using the multi mark strat he can then use the nurgle strat for a FURTHER D3 regen meaning the dink can regen 10 wounds a turn in theory. All while being -3 to hit if alpha legion, Having a 3+ invuln anda 5+++ (using the multi mark ability and powers )

I feel like the amount of stacking combos in this sand box are reaching power levels of 9000+

 Red Corsair wrote:
Regarding the Lord Discordant I shared this in N&R and wanted to post it here as well

1 lord discordant can be a real bitch to deal with given these leaks. You can spend 1 CP to give him every mark, so he can then get all three god specific powers caston him, have an apostle give him a further -1 to hit, have a MOP give him +1 invuln save. He heals himself D3+1 and can have a MOP heal him a further 3 (2 if he uses the discordant for the sacrifice wound) using the multi mark strat he can then use the nurgle strat for a FURTHER D3 regen meaning the dink can regen 10 wounds a turn in theory. All while being -3 to hit if alpha legion, Having a 3+ invuln anda 5+++ (using the multi mark ability and powers )

I feel like the amount of stacking combos in this sand box are reaching power levels of 9000+

Its not all marks. I believe its pick a single mark and it gains it until end of turn. I watched a video... kinda hard to remember. But yeah, if that is how the strat works, would be pretty silly lol

Tiding 20 man blobs of CSM, i am spooked.
How many marines excactly did Huron get under his command!?!

Not Online!!! wrote:
Tiding 20 man blobs of CSM, i am spooked.
How many marines excactly did Huron get under his command!?!

over 9000 !!!! lol

Not Online!!! wrote:
Tiding 20 man blobs of CSM, i am spooked.
How many marines excactly did Huron get under his command!?!

In the lore he's described as having a force around the size of a pre-Heresy Legion (the smallest of which was 10,000, the largest of which was 250,000).

btw, flawless host trait is amazing. They get double death to the false emperor. Apply that to flawless host possessed and you suddenly have a unit that hits at up to str 7 or 8 with certain buffs and the double DTTFE are going to give them a ton of additional hits. Oh, and flawless host possessed can take icon of excess because they are slanaash. So, that makes their DTTFE trigger on a 5+ ...

Also, their strategem allows them to reroll hits in close combat... So, even more DTTFFE rolls... lol

 blood reaper wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
Tiding 20 man blobs of CSM, i am spooked.
How many marines excactly did Huron get under his command!?!

In the lore he's described as having a force around the size of a pre-Heresy Legion (the smallest of which was 10,000, the largest of which was 250,000).

Huron kills abadon (abadoff after it) and claims to be the Warmaster!
You heard it here first.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Just for maths sake, you pick a regular Red corsair battalion, as cheap as possible so 110 pts in HQ 2x 5 man squads of CSM and 1 20 man squad.

390 +110 = 500 pts.

you can recycle with the ammount of CP you generated the 20 man blob 2 times, that means around 180 pts each time if you try to be carefull.

that would technically mean you expanded your 500 pts battalion with free 360 pts. so to speak.

THAT IS INSANE.

Black Legion can spend a CP to auto-win a contested objective. That's uh, significant.

Not with Abaddon's stat line he won't. Abaddon is a beast. And his relic weapon deals a flat 3 damage now. He will murder anything below a primarch.

That Nortlith Crown is for people who want to play gunline CSM. Its a huge terrain piece. Now, suddenly, your shooty hellbrutes get a invul save. Now all your ne new havocs also get an invul save. Their psykers may perils if they want to get close, while your psykers get better. And the aura it projects grows each turn too. So, erm yeah, its a good centre piece for shooty gunline CSM.

Flawless host does look pretty insane, one strat i saw:

Slaanesh flawless host demon prince, intoxicating elixir, warlord with the bonus 3 attacks trait. 8 attacks at str 8, generating 3 attacks on 6s or 4 attacks against imperium.

Thats just.... nutty as hell.

 Zid wrote:
Flawless host does look pretty insane, one strat i saw:

Slaanesh flawless host demon prince, intoxicating elixir, warlord with the bonus 3 attacks trait. 8 attacks at str 8, generating 3 attacks on 6s or 4 attacks against imperium.

Thats just.... nutty as hell.

Yup, its insanely good.

I'm really trying to like the Scourged benefits but... eh. 5+ overwatch is pretty good, but won't be relevant in a lot of matchups and the other half of the trait is just worse than having a chaos lord around.

 Arachnofiend wrote:
I'm really trying to like the Scourged benefits but... eh. 5+ overwatch is pretty good, but won't be relevant in a lot of matchups and the other half of the trait is just worse than having a chaos lord around.

Would have been cool to get a pseudo greater good. Like one unit within 6" overwatches with you

There are so many renegade factions to choose from. Plus all the new special detachments, and black legion gained a whole bunch of new warlord traits, strategems and relics too. So, if you are playing soup, just pick what works for your army.

I think almost every theme has cool combos now. Even that raptoral host. Because it has a warlord trait that +2 to charge roll to all raptorial host units within 6 inches of the warlord. Suddenly, everything looks different when you just need a 7 inch charge rather than a 9 ... And raptors can take icon of wrath to reroll charge...

I think they are trying to get CSM to take big beefy units of 20 rather than MSU units of 5. With all the new possible prayer, strategems, psychic buffs... You get so much more bang for your buck if you use them on a big beefy unit of 20 rather than on a MSU unit of 5 (unless its 3 obliterators). Which then brings it back to black legion because black legion has the most ways for you to get raise or get immunity to morale, which would be a huge thing with a big expensive unit of 20.

It kinda fits the fluff too. Chaos CSM are kinda still like the legions of old. So, when chaos fights, it goes big! So, chunky big units of 20, with buffs from strategems, auras, prayers, etc all stacked on.

Am I reading right that the Disciples are T3, 1W, 6+Sv, two models, not Characters? Because that’s just going to get deleted by a mortar on the first round. In smaller games, a 1pow Elite choice could pay a Vanguard tax and hide in a ruin to hug an objective and deny deepstriking.
EDIT: aha, they can huddle up to the DA to hide. Does this make them sniper fodder? They don’t take up a slot, so this makes them a de facto DA points hike that fills transport capacity, not detachment requirements

Havocs are... acceptable. I guess. It’s nice to have something distinct from Devastators, and hiding on the first turn is probably better than buying meatshields. I get the impression it’s just heavy weapons for them now? Can we get the champion dual-wielding?

Hmm. Punishing Volley. Shoot in opponent’s movement phase if you lost first turn. Character targeting restrictions apply in the shooting phase. Have we just accidentally acquired a packet of four single-use Lascannon Sniper scopes?
Edit: no, you shoot as if it were your shooting phase, so targeting restrictions do apply. (I’m expecting this to be editing into music of the apocalypse when some blastmasters snipe a character in the fight phase in some big event)

Really, really not feeling it on the Discordant. So if a BL one gets first turn, they can hog all the endurance psychic powers. That’s going to require three Sorcerers or Daemon Princes, and it’s not going to do much good if you get second turn, and it’s no help for the other Legions. Even with all those spells working, it’s effectively 18W 4++ -1 to be hit (-2 if you buy him a DA), which is not an overwhelming hill for any Knight-ready list to level.

Do I read right that DAs not only have a 33% chance of having an asthma attack instead of preaching, they also cost 28 more pts? Ability to double up on Prescience is interesting, but that’s a hell of a hike.

Cheaper Terminators sound damn good to me.

I am in love with the Crimson Slaughter relic. +1 STR power sword, after killing any enemy model, all wound rolls with the sword are auto-succeed. Giggle in your enemy's face as you dish out 4-5 wounds on a knight with your 74 point chaos lord.

The Disciples aren't characters, but they have the character rule, from my understanding. They can't be targeted unless they're the closest model.

Are we the first faction to get a Terminators power level cut to match their points reduction? Because that’s going to matter for lists that deploy a lot of stuff off the table

 lindsay40k wrote:
Am I reading right that the Disciples are T3, 1W, 6+Sv, two models, not Characters? Because that’s just going to get deleted by a mortar on the first round. In smaller games, a 1pow Elite choice could pay a Vanguard tax and hide in a ruin to hug an objective and deny deepstriking.

Havocs are... acceptable. I guess. It’s nice to have something distinct from Devastators, and hiding on the first turn is probably better than buying meatshields. I get the impression it’s just heavy weapons for them now? Can we get the champion dual-wielding?

Hmm. Punishing Volley. Shoot in opponent’s movement phase if you lost first turn. Character targeting restrictions apply in the shooting phase. Have we just accidentally acquired a packet of four single-use Lascannon Sniper scopes?

Really, really not feeling it on the Discordant. So if a BL one gets first turn, they can hog all the endurance psychic powers. That’s going to require three Sorcerers or Daemon Princes, and it’s not going to do much good if you get second turn, and it’s no help for the other Legions. Even with all those spells working, it’s effectively 18W 4++ -1 to be hit (-2 if you buy him a DA), which is not an overwhelming hill for any Knight-ready list to level.

Do I read right that DAs not only have a 33% chance of having an asthma attack instead of preaching, they also cost 28 more pts? Ability to double up on Prescience is interesting, but that’s a hell of a hike.

Cheaper Terminators sound damn good to me.

1. I think disciples can't be targeted unless they are the closest to an enemy. Sort of like character targeting rules.
2. Havocs can move and shoot heavy weapons now. So, there is really nothing to stop you from hiding out of line of sight, and then moving out to shoot.
3. Yeah, punishing volley is cool. You get first turn, but I still get to shoot you with one of my units first lol. And someone pointed out that strategems like raise ion shields don't apply at the end of movement phase?
4. The Lord of discordant is a Lord. There is a black legion warlord trait that halves all damage you receive (like Abaddon). Suddenly, his 12 W becomes the equivalent of 24W with that trait. And that's before stacking on anything else. You could plink him to death, but with a 2+ save and T6, I don't think small arms will do much to him.
5. Dark Apostles got a points hike yes, but the new prayers are very interesting, and look a few pages back where I gave an example of how a dark apostle can suddenly go hulk at suddenly throw out 16 str 8 ot 9 attacks with the right prayer. And that -1 to hit, if you stack it on alpha legion and add miasma... yeah -3 to hit...
6. Yeah CSM terminators are really interesting now. Each combi chainaxe termi is just 29 points. Its cheap!!