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The Noctolith Crown’s only Faction Keyword is CHAOS

You can’t take a CHAOS detachment in a Battle forged army



Edit: also, the Skull Altar has special rules that apply when it is summoned with Daemonic Ritual, but it lacks the Daemonic Ritual ability

It really annoys me that Dark Apostles are stuck with the old ability as a pre-defined prayer, to be honest... I think a lot of the things you would want to do with him, you wouldn't want re-rolls in the fight phase.

I love how everyone was crying that the new Apostle is bad and nerfed because he now has to roll for his aura ability instead of getting it automatically.

And now that we have more information people are backpedaling hard and saying how amazing he is.

Gosh I hate the internet. It's almost as if whining about stuff without having the full picture is a sport around here.

 Arachnofiend wrote:
It really annoys me that Dark Apostles are stuck with the old ability as a pre-defined prayer, to be honest... I think a lot of the things you would want to do with him, you wouldn't want re-rolls in the fight phase.

Well.. he has always been a close combat kinda of hero.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I am going to try and make Lord of discordant work somehow, if only because I just love the idea of a daemon engine theme, and he looks awesome. Actually, given his huge movement (he moves 12), I think there will be ways to make him competitive.

Abaddon is actually kinda harder because he moves only 6, and he waste all his awesome melee if you just make him buff a gunline. Plus Chaos CSM was never that great as a gun line army in the first place. (Although who knows, with all the new stuff, maybe someone will come out with an absolutely wicked gunline list for CSM).

Eldenfirefly wrote:

 lindsay40k wrote:
Am I reading right that the Disciples are T3, 1W, 6+Sv, two models, not Characters? Because that’s just going to get deleted by a mortar on the first round. In smaller games, a 1pow Elite choice could pay a Vanguard tax and hide in a ruin to hug an objective and deny deepstriking.

Havocs are... acceptable. I guess. It’s nice to have something distinct from Devastators, and hiding on the first turn is probably better than buying meatshields. I get the impression it’s just heavy weapons for them now? Can we get the champion dual-wielding?

Hmm. Punishing Volley. Shoot in opponent’s movement phase if you lost first turn. Character targeting restrictions apply in the shooting phase. Have we just accidentally acquired a packet of four single-use Lascannon Sniper scopes?

Really, really not feeling it on the Discordant. So if a BL one gets first turn, they can hog all the endurance psychic powers. That’s going to require three Sorcerers or Daemon Princes, and it’s not going to do much good if you get second turn, and it’s no help for the other Legions. Even with all those spells working, it’s effectively 18W 4++ -1 to be hit (-2 if you buy him a DA), which is not an overwhelming hill for any Knight-ready list to level.

Do I read right that DAs not only have a 33% chance of having an asthma attack instead of preaching, they also cost 28 more pts? Ability to double up on Prescience is interesting, but that’s a hell of a hike.

Cheaper Terminators sound damn good to me.

1. I think disciples can't be targeted unless they are the closest to an enemy. Sort of like character targeting rules.
2. Havocs can move and shoot heavy weapons now. So, there is really nothing to stop you from hiding out of line of sight, and then moving out to shoot.
3. Yeah, punishing volley is cool. You get first turn, but I still get to shoot you with one of my units first lol. And someone pointed out that strategems like raise ion shields don't apply at the end of movement phase?
4. The Lord of discordant is a Lord. There is a black legion warlord trait that halves all damage you receive (like Abaddon). Suddenly, his 12 W becomes the equivalent of 24W with that trait. And that's before stacking on anything else. You could plink him to death, but with a 2+ save and T6, I don't think small arms will do much to him.
5. Dark Apostles got a points hike yes, but the new prayers are very interesting, and look a few pages back where I gave an example of how a dark apostle can suddenly go hulk at suddenly throw out 16 str 8 ot 9 attacks with the right prayer. And that -1 to hit, if you stack it on alpha legion and add miasma... yeah -3 to hit...
6. Yeah CSM terminators are really interesting now. Each combi chainaxe termi is just 29 points. Its cheap!!

Re Ion shields: given that the shooting is done ‘as if it were your shooting phase’, I guess a rules lawyer could make a case that defensive strats could be used? Even then, it’s inefficient - you usually want that to apply when you’re being shot at by an army, not four infantry models, so sure, burn 2CP to deflect one of the extra hits I generated for 1CP

Re BL Warlord Trait on Discordant: that is cool and makes it viable for one of the Legions, but I’m not going to rush to add one to my Word Bearers

Re DA hulking out: not sure how useful that is for a foot-slogger manacled to a pair of foot-sloggers, who take up space in a transport (reducing his ability to hide after rapid redeployment) and make his prayer worryingly unreliable if he Warptimes away from them

You dont have to be a Genius to guess that Abbaddon + 4X5 missile launcher havoc squad will be played as gunline

Sarevokk wrote:
You dont have to be a Genius to guess that Abbaddon + 4X5 missile launcher havoc squad will be played as gunline

Don't forget rule of 3. You can only have 3 units of havocs.

Mecha-Serpents make 1A for each enemy model within 1” but do not restrict how you allocate those attacks

If you get swarmed by Grots, you can pick them all up and throw them at a Warboss

 lindsay40k wrote:
Mecha-Serpents make 1A for each enemy model within 1” but do not restrict how you allocate those attacks

If you get swarmed by Grots, you can pick them all up and throw them at a Warboss

lol that sounds so cool! And also, LOD counts as a daemon Engine too. So, for just 1 CP, you can make the LOD reroll all hits and wounds with Daemonforge. That's scary for a guy who has so many attacks lol

So... at the risk of sounding overenthusiastic, reading the new rules in Vigilus Ablaze is deeply satisfying.

Dark Eldar / Orks / Imperial Knights releases made it hard to consistently win with Chaos. I've been experimenting with new list styles and finding so many limitations in the original Codex. There are answers to most of the big challenges in these new rules.

With the exception Land Raiders, Vindicators and Predators, every unit appears to have improved.

Most excited about the Skull Altar. If it can actually be summoned, I could see Khorne Daemon detachments complete with Bloodthirsters becoming competitive.

Even Predators can be semi decent now. Put them next to the new Chaos terrain piece Nilith Crown, that gives them a 5++ invul save. That terrain is quite big, and its aura expands. I can see fitting 3 shooty hellbrutes and 3 predators around that Crown and they will all get a 5++

Then you can actually use fire frenzy and kill shot.

Eldenfirefly wrote:
Even Predators can be semi decent now. Put them next to the new Chaos terrain piece Nilith Crown, that gives them a 5++ invul save. That terrain is quite big, and its aura expands. I can see fitting 3 shooty hellbrutes and 3 predators around that Crown and they will all get a 5++

Then you can actually use fire frenzy and kill shot.

Yes. And have Abaddon standing there for full re-rolls to hit, and a Cultist screen to make it hard to charge them. I've been playing a Black Legion gunline since the start of 8th edition, anything that increases the survivability or armor is a big deal.

However, Chaos just got a lot stronger as a mid-range army through all the new detachments and combos. Chaos armor is still outgunned by Dark Eldar (and sometimes Tau), Imperial Knights still have ways to wipe them out in a single round, and Ork hordes are nearly impossible to chew through quickly enough to avoid the charge.

Would have loved to see a detachment for Chaos armor that gives them more tactical depth. Looking at the Lord Dischordant and thinking what he can do to hordes. Looking at the Skull Altar and thinking about what a Bloodletter Bomb is now going to mean. Looking at the Daemonkin Ritualists and thinking what they are going to do to Dark Eldar.

Feels like these detachments are so points efficient, there's not going to be a reason for gunlines.

Looking again at Prayers

Zealotry is on the DA’s new Datasheet, so it doesn’t lose synergy with Voice of Lorgar, which is something

Unit-specific prayers are a more reliable Prescience or Miasma that can provide redundancy or even stack, but need the target to be in play at the start of the battle round. That’s actually a somewhat complicated moving part:

- if your unit is arriving by reserve or disembarking, you can’t use the mini-Prescience or -1 to be hit on them that turn

- if you got first turn, you can’t give a unit -1 to be hit between moving it and your opponent’s turn, which could be annoying if you need to redeploy things

- if you lose first turn, you can give a unit -1 to be hit before the enemy shoots

The invuln aura, on the other hand, can be used the same as any other aura

Incidentally, if they’d added a re-roll on prayer attempts to the WB trait, it’d be fluffy and viable

Have you heard about the new Rotor chain cannon that our havocs can now take, Techsodalton? Its 8 shots of str 5, AP -1, D1. A havoc squad with 4 of those will be shooting 32 str 5 shots. Bring 3 havocs squads with those chain cannons and you could probably thin out just any horde out there.

The new Dark Apostle can give +1 to wound to a unit. Add on veterans of the long war, and even str 5 shots will be wounding an imperial knight at 3+.

 lindsay40k wrote:
The Noctolith Crown’s only Faction Keyword is CHAOS

You can’t take a CHAOS detachment in a Battle forged army



Edit: also, the Skull Altar has special rules that apply when it is summoned with Daemonic Ritual, but it lacks the Daemonic Ritual ability

I mean, your not wrong, but Jesus it's a simple oversight among all these rules. It's going to be fixed with the FAQ in 2 weeks if they are made aware of it. Just politely point it out to them. No need to thumb your nose at it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 lindsay40k wrote:
Mecha-Serpents make 1A for each enemy model within 1” but do not restrict how you allocate those attacks

If you get swarmed by Grots, you can pick them all up and throw them at a Warboss

That is funny

I don't often meet warbosses hanging with grots, but when I do, I throw them in his face to show him the error in his ways.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 techsoldaten wrote:

Eldenfirefly wrote:
Even Predators can be semi decent now. Put them next to the new Chaos terrain piece Nilith Crown, that gives them a 5++ invul save. That terrain is quite big, and its aura expands. I can see fitting 3 shooty hellbrutes and 3 predators around that Crown and they will all get a 5++

Then you can actually use fire frenzy and kill shot.

Yes. And have Abaddon standing there for full re-rolls to hit, and a Cultist screen to make it hard to charge them. I've been playing a Black Legion gunline since the start of 8th edition, anything that increases the survivability or armor is a big deal.

However, Chaos just got a lot stronger as a mid-range army through all the new detachments and combos. Chaos armor is still outgunned by Dark Eldar (and sometimes Tau), Imperial Knights still have ways to wipe them out in a single round, and Ork hordes are nearly impossible to chew through quickly enough to avoid the charge.

Would have loved to see a detachment for Chaos armor that gives them more tactical depth. Looking at the Lord Dischordant and thinking what he can do to hordes. Looking at the Skull Altar and thinking about what a Bloodletter Bomb is now going to mean. Looking at the Daemonkin Ritualists and thinking what they are going to do to Dark Eldar.

Feels like these detachments are so points efficient, there's not going to be a reason for gunlines.

If I ever came across this castle with my triple doomscythe necrons I would blow my load immediately though 1CP to money shot your entire army for 3d3 mortal wounds would be such a niche hard counter

You know, that new red corsair strategem. Bring Abaddon and a batallion of red corsair. 2 MSU of 5 CSM and 1 max 20 man squad. Advance the 20 man squad up the field firing bolters along with Abaddon giving it immunity to morale. Then when it has been whittled down to low model count, bring it all back again, preferably in your opponent's back line ...

I mean... a 40 man cultist squad is 200 points, for 60 more points, you have a full squad of 20 CSM. And I bet 20 CSM will be a lot more resilient than 40 cultists!

 Red Corsair wrote:

 techsoldaten wrote:
Yes. And have Abaddon standing there for full re-rolls to hit, and a Cultist screen to make it hard to charge them. I've been playing a Black Legion gunline since the start of 8th edition, anything that increases the survivability or armor is a big deal.

However, Chaos just got a lot stronger as a mid-range army through all the new detachments and combos. Chaos armor is still outgunned by Dark Eldar (and sometimes Tau), Imperial Knights still have ways to wipe them out in a single round, and Ork hordes are nearly impossible to chew through quickly enough to avoid the charge.

Would have loved to see a detachment for Chaos armor that gives them more tactical depth. Looking at the Lord Dischordant and thinking what he can do to hordes. Looking at the Skull Altar and thinking about what a Bloodletter Bomb is now going to mean. Looking at the Daemonkin Ritualists and thinking what they are going to do to Dark Eldar.

Feels like these detachments are so points efficient, there's not going to be a reason for gunlines.

If I ever came across this castle with my triple doomscythe necrons I would blow my load immediately though 1CP to money shot your entire army for 3d3 mortal wounds would be such a niche hard counter

That would be an interesting matchup, the confidence of Necron players is delightful.

I wonder how those Doomscythes would fare against the response, 23 lascannons with full rerolls to hit? 3D3 typically will not kill a unit.

 Red Corsair wrote:

 lindsay40k wrote:
The Noctolith Crown’s only Faction Keyword is CHAOS

You can’t take a CHAOS detachment in a Battle forged army

I mean, your not wrong, but Jesus it's a simple oversight among all these rules. It's going to be fixed with the FAQ in 2 weeks if they are made aware of it. Just politely point it out to them. No need to thumb your nose at it.

The battle brothers rule doesn't apply to fortification detachments. No problem here


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"1CP- doubles wounds characteristic of daemon engine"

Is that a real thing ?
Cos my scorpion would love that. .

Captyn_Bob wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:

 lindsay40k wrote:
The Noctolith Crown’s only Faction Keyword is CHAOS

You can’t take a CHAOS detachment in a Battle forged army

I mean, your not wrong, but Jesus it's a simple oversight among all these rules. It's going to be fixed with the FAQ in 2 weeks if they are made aware of it. Just politely point it out to them. No need to thumb your nose at it.

The battle brothers rule doesn't apply to fortification detachments. No problem here


Automatically Appended Next Post:
"1CP- doubles wounds characteristic of daemon engine"

Is that a real thing ?
Cos my scorpion would love that. .

Probably to avoid stuff on the damage chart. Still a good Strategem though.

I think you're viewing the Lord Discordant incorrectly. He isn't a support HQ, he is an improved maulerfiend. 2+ vs 3+ is actually quite a big deal; he is fast, hits on 1+ (he is a daemon engine after all) so even his autocannon hits on a 2+ when he's moved, as well as hitting DtTFE on 5+. He is an excellent choice for an elixir, making tons of his attacks hit strength 9; if run as black legion giving him the half damage WL trait is an excellent use.

I would not bother with extensive single target survival buffs; he's 170 points and decently tough for that point total; he punches way about that weight class. He also absorbs daemonic loci; running him next to a chariot herald of slaanesh will give him advance and charge and +1 strength; easily executes first turn charges.

Yeah...I actually think you either run 1 black legion one with the half damage or you run 3. "Distraction carnifexes" as it were; they will butcher hordes (who will plink off of their 2+ armor and T6) and vehicles alike.

I'm not going to call him meta, but he doesn't need to be able to endure fire which would kill a knight to be useful. He is fast and hits very hard.

Noctolith crown plus MOP with cursed earth. 4++ predators and hellbrutes. Yes please!

Master of Possession only boosts Daemon Legion dudes. No 4++ Preds I don't think.

 techsoldaten wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:

 techsoldaten wrote:
Yes. And have Abaddon standing there for full re-rolls to hit, and a Cultist screen to make it hard to charge them. I've been playing a Black Legion gunline since the start of 8th edition, anything that increases the survivability or armor is a big deal.

However, Chaos just got a lot stronger as a mid-range army through all the new detachments and combos. Chaos armor is still outgunned by Dark Eldar (and sometimes Tau), Imperial Knights still have ways to wipe them out in a single round, and Ork hordes are nearly impossible to chew through quickly enough to avoid the charge.

Would have loved to see a detachment for Chaos armor that gives them more tactical depth. Looking at the Lord Dischordant and thinking what he can do to hordes. Looking at the Skull Altar and thinking about what a Bloodletter Bomb is now going to mean. Looking at the Daemonkin Ritualists and thinking what they are going to do to Dark Eldar.

Feels like these detachments are so points efficient, there's not going to be a reason for gunlines.

If I ever came across this castle with my triple doomscythe necrons I would blow my load immediately though 1CP to money shot your entire army for 3d3 mortal wounds would be such a niche hard counter

That would be an interesting matchup, the confidence of Necron players is delightful.

I wonder how those Doomscythes would fare against the response, 23 lascannons with full rerolls to hit? 3D3 typically will not kill a unit.

If your somehow packing 23 las canons around abbadon and that things aura then I'm definietly going to buy you a more accurate tape measuring device and or slap the scotch out of your hands

All kidding aside I wouldn't expect them to survive if 23 las canons were still there. It's 3d3 mortals to every unit within 3" range of any point they pick, not 3d3 total It's also only 450 points facing down basically an entire army in that scenario. I think the best shot that castle would have is by using that new crippling fire strat and trying to down one of the fliers before they could pop the strat. I just thought it would be a very unusual and funny situation.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Master of Possession only boosts Daemon Legion dudes. No 4++ Preds I don't think.

Ah brain fart, got too excited with all the new rule. Still going to run one with a TSon/Scourged outfit methinks.

So...also now Kytans just get to auto first turn charge with that new detachment ability....

Against most armies, Lord Discordant should do alright surviving first turn with the black legion half damage trait (if that's actually true, personally it sounds too busted to be true), -1 to hit from DA prayer, and prepared position. And if you're facing something with overwhelming firepower like IG or a Raven Castellan then hiding behind LOS blocking terrain first turn is also a viable option, keeping in mind that he moves extremely fast so he should have no problem gaining lost ground. Then against if a Raven Castellan spends an entire turn plus 3CP shooting a 160pt model then that's a win as well

I think CSM's biggest issue right now is reliable chaff clearing on turn 1, we've got plenty on turn 2 now with chaingun havocs and chainaxe terminators but not turn 1. We have all these amazing combat units that want to hit those expensive units in the back but almost all of them get stopped by having 20 guardsmen parked in front of them, which means close combat at the earliest is turn 3 a lot of times. Turn 1 Tzaangor bomb might be the most reliable chaff clearing option we have as it also puts pressure on the opponent from the get-go, but 8'' re-rollable charge is still not the best odd IMO.

So it will take a while to process, but it feels like the winners here are....

Havocs. You'll want alpha legion I think, -1 to hit is too juicy to pass up unless you go full abadon gunline, which I think might end up legit, but the alpha legion move strategem is also going to be something you might like to get them into an ideal range: 24 inches on that new gun will be much nicer if you can jog forward a little. I know it is heresy, but I think the might even be worth putting two squads in a rhino for the first turn protection and superior movement. I also frankly think a full lascannon squad might be worth it with the new shoot-on-your-enemy's-first-turn strategem. They are just so capable of absorbing buffs; they are a good target for endless, prescience, veterans, rerolls...and that new gun in particular is so.

Red Corsairs: I think tide of marines and the bonus command points is really solid. The rotary cannon is boost for MSUs. I see a lot of army building starting with 20 CSM, 2x5, Huron and some other HQ.

Dark Apostate: I think I want to reserve judgement. When those prayers first came out they sounded amazing. But if he only knows the reroll hits and 1 other (plus a mark one) that's much less impressive. You need to find a unit that absorbs that buff well enough to be worth 100 points. Oblits getting an extra -1 first turn might be worth it, same for a kytan or lord of skulls. But it probably has to be a 300+ point unit to afford that tax. I actually think the walking possessed unit might be the ticket because it's one of the few that wants both options and will stay nearby the priest. I actually think the 5+ invuln save without having to spend a detachment on the gate might also have some viability if you desperately want to run shootbrutes and preds. But I think those are both outclassed by other units now.

Possessed: So....this is tough. I think there might be something to an alpha legion possessed line walking forward. MoP, Great Possessed, a summoned or allied herald, a dark apostate for the -1 to hit will actually probably get you to melee. You're going to be investing about 600~ points into this. But in exchange you have a 40 wound -3 to be hit, t4 3+ 4++ wall of meat that will hit at strength 8 with 80 attacks on average (this assumes the nurgle spell, but the slaanesh one is also fine). It is a ton to invest, but it will provide some good board control and will be nearly impossible to kill with shooting. I don't think it's a meta thing, but I do think it is a "doesn't totally suck" thing. I think it'd synergize pretty well with a pair of full strength units of plaguebearers and their typical support groups.

As described above I think the lord discordant is also a winner; he is quite frightening on his own and not trivial to kill relative to his points. He'll need to be coupled with other threats, but I think lists could make very scary uses of him.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Continuity wrote:
Against most armies, Lord Discordant should do alright surviving first turn with the black legion half damage trait (if that's actually true, personally it sounds too busted to be true), -1 to hit from DA prayer, and prepared position. And if you're facing something with overwhelming firepower like IG or a Raven Castellan then hiding behind LOS blocking terrain first turn is also a viable option, keeping in mind that he moves extremely fast so he should have no problem gaining lost ground. Then against if a Raven Castellan spends an entire turn plus 3CP shooting a 160pt model then that's a win as well

I think CSM's biggest issue right now is reliable chaff clearing on turn 1, we've got plenty on turn 2 now with chaingun havocs and chainaxe terminators but not turn 1. We have all these amazing combat units that want to hit those expensive units in the back but almost all of them get stopped by having 20 guardsmen parked in front of them, which means close combat at the earliest is turn 3 a lot of times. Turn 1 Tzaangor bomb might be the most reliable chaff clearing option we have as it also puts pressure on the opponent from the get-go, but 8'' re-rollable charge is still not the best odd IMO.

I think havocs are the answer there. Start in a rhino, pop two units out. That is 64 s5 ap -1 shots before endless or any other support. Byebye screen.

Anyone up for running DPP numbers on chaingun squad versus Noise Marines?

A 10 man chainaxe/combi bolter slaanesh squad of alpha legion termy boyos sounds pretty meaty. Walk them forward (warptime if you need more movement/stratagem) and shoot 40 shots with veterans active. Then fire again. Throw in any number of other buffs like +1 to hit and a lord for 2+ re-rolling 1s to hit at s4 with +1 to wound. Throw in a 5+++ an an easy -2 to hit and you have a really angry unit that is going to obliterate any chaff and even threaten harder target through pure weight of fire. They are all in one easy package to buff and protect all the while being terminators and not terrible in melee.

 lindsay40k wrote:
Anyone up for running DPP numbers on chaingun squad versus Noise Marines?

Don't think there's a comparison 34 points for chaingun havock, 20 points for sonic blaster noise marine.

If you're killing orks, chaingun kills 3.55 orks; 0.1 per point.

Noise marine kills 0.83; 0.04 per point.

They all have access to sane strats and havocks are tough 5.

It's nuts if the numbers are correct.