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Made in hk
Longtime Dakkanaut





All I can hope is that they do consider how shooty 8th edition was, and factor that in when they roll out 9th edition so that it is not quite so terrible for melee type armies.

Maybe this whole coming from reserves rule will change things up. Although as long as there was cheap troop fodder to screen out deep strikers, I fail again to see how it will change things much, short of allowing deep strikers to deep strike like within 2 inches or something like that...

I have come to realise that CSM are sort of all rounders. We aren't the worst at shooting, but we aren't the best either. In that same vein, despite having berserkers and world eaters, I hesitate to say we are the best in melee either, because it comes as a complete package. You need a good mix of durability, melee, ability to cross the battle field to get into melee, and then strategems that support a melee strategy that will truly make for a complete best melee package.

We may seem good at melee, but thats because we often have a bigger melee component that is baked into our lists compared to other armies. Because daemon engines pay for the points to have the ability to fight in exchange for inferior shooting, because Obliterators have mini power fists, and because of other reasons too. So, we sort of pay in points for the ability to melee better by default while other factions may be able to go pure shooty in exchange for a weak melee ability.

If a melee oriented faction wanted to go full melee, it would likely be just as good as CSM's melee lists. Only reason such lists are not popular to begin with is because this 8th edition was such a shooty faction. When even a knight, or Magnus can get shot off the board on turn 1, melee has problems even reaching the opponent.

I think two rules would help us a lot, especially if they want to continue the theme of daemon engines for CSM:

1) Allow our daemon engines to bull doze through terrain like ruins or walls. Since when did a thin wall stop a big hulking daemon engine ? Can you imagine a defiler or lord of skulls stopping before a wall saying " oh, I can't pass through this thing..."

2) Do not let stuff block vehicles or daemon engines. Bring back that tank shock, ram, and thunderblitz rules. Nothing shot of a super heavy should be able to stand there and block my rampaging defiler or maulerfiend charging forward. It just defies belief that a crummy line of infantry can block such a huge hulking rampaging daemon engine. Picture it in real life and you can just see how utterly unrealistic that is.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/05/24 12:31:47


 
   
Made in us
Daemonic Dreadnought





Eye of Terror

Eldenfirefly wrote:
All I can hope is that they do consider how shooty 8th edition was, and factor that in when they roll out 9th edition so that it is not quite so terrible for melee type armies.

Maybe this whole coming from reserves rule will change things up. Although as long as there was cheap troop fodder to screen out deep strikers, I fail again to see how it will change things much, short of allowing deep strikers to deep strike like within 2 inches or something like that...

The introduction video talks about being strategic with reserves and allowing units to come in from all angles. Not sure what this means, if he's talking about using all table edges or something else.

From a Chaos perspective, reserves are a pretty simple mechanic. We have units that can deep strike, they can only arrive on the table after first turn. Most of them want to charge the turn they arrive, and some armies have ways of preventing that.

If there's some new reserve rule that allows any unit to enter from any table edge other outside your opponent's deployment zone, that might be interesting but I'm not sure it makes a big difference to how the game is played. Maybe it eliminates a turn of footslogging, but it doesn't eliminate the need to screen your army. If anything, I imagine that would make us play a more defensive game.

   
Made in hk
Longtime Dakkanaut





As long as screens are a thing. reserves rules won't do much I feel.

The biggest thing would be terrain changes. But that could hurt us too because we don't really have artillery. Unless we go forgeworld, which is getting revamped anyway.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/05/24 12:38:55


 
   
Made in us
Enigmatic Chaos Sorcerer




The dark hollows of Kentucky

Eldenfirefly wrote:
As long as screens are a thing. reserves rules won't do much I feel.

The biggest thing would be terrain changes. But that could hurt us too because we don't really have artillery. Unless we go forgeworld, which is getting revamped anyway.

So? Forge World units have been integral to csm for a while. One of the few things that made 7th edition bearable was IA 13. So why should we discount it just because gw is bringing out new books? That's like discounting daemons just because a new daemons codex is announced. It's entirely possible that the new books could improve our fw options. It's almost impossible for them to make some of them worse.

What gw does in the new fw books could make or break csm until we get a new codex.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/05/25 02:28:01


 
   
Made in us
Pestilent Plague Marine with Blight Grenade





I was thinking of getting a forgefiend and was wondering what the best loadout was. The triple ectoplasma cannon looks good, but there's the problem of the range. I was thinking of doing one ectoplasma cannon and two autocannons.
   
Made in us
Daemonic Dreadnought





Eye of Terror

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Eldenfirefly wrote:
As long as screens are a thing. reserves rules won't do much I feel.

The biggest thing would be terrain changes. But that could hurt us too because we don't really have artillery. Unless we go forgeworld, which is getting revamped anyway.

So? Forge World units have been integral to csm for a while. One of the few things that made 7th edition bearable was IA 13. So why should we discount it just because gw is bringing out new books? That's like discounting daemons just because a new daemons codex is announced. It's entirely possible that the new books could improve our fw options. It's almost impossible for them to make some of them worse.

What gw does in the new fw books could make or break csm until we get a new codex.

Yeah, but...

Forgeworld is not wildly popular for CSM. There are some standout units - Contemptors and other Dreads - that come up often in lists and that's it.

GW has continually raised points on things like Spartans, Kharbydis Assault Claws, Daemon Lords, and the like. Most of the stuff in the Index won't fit into a decent list.

What I really want to see out of FW is versatility. I like my Contemptors and Scorpius' and get a lot of work out of them. I'd really like to use the other stuff too.

   
Made in us
Enigmatic Chaos Sorcerer




The dark hollows of Kentucky

 techsoldaten wrote:
 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Eldenfirefly wrote:
As long as screens are a thing. reserves rules won't do much I feel.

The biggest thing would be terrain changes. But that could hurt us too because we don't really have artillery. Unless we go forgeworld, which is getting revamped anyway.

So? Forge World units have been integral to csm for a while. One of the few things that made 7th edition bearable was IA 13. So why should we discount it just because gw is bringing out new books? That's like discounting daemons just because a new daemons codex is announced. It's entirely possible that the new books could improve our fw options. It's almost impossible for them to make some of them worse.

What gw does in the new fw books could make or break csm until we get a new codex.

Yeah, but...

Forgeworld is not wildly popular for CSM. There are some standout units - Contemptors and other Dreads - that come up often in lists and that's it.

GW has continually raised points on things like Spartans, Kharbydis Assault Claws, Daemon Lords, and the like. Most of the stuff in the Index won't fit into a decent list.

What I really want to see out of FW is versatility. I like my Contemptors and Scorpius' and get a lot of work out of them. I'd really like to use the other stuff too.

That was my point. All of that stuff was great in 7th. They ruined it in 8th with ridiculous points costs and nerfed rules. I want to wreck things with my fellblade again. I want to drop my contemptor in my opponent's face with my dreadclaw again and be able to reliably make the charge. I want my Night Lords to have the weapons and equipment of an actual legion, not a bunch of dinobots and mutated dreadnoughts.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




According to the Q&A, in 9th, modifiers are capped at +1/-1. Just thought I'd leave this here, since Chaos is one of the factions most impacted by this, along with aeldari. Lord discordants just got a huge nerf, as did any lists that revolved around making one hard to hit and them forcing people to shoot it. Nurgle possessed bomb as a list is pretty much dead.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/05/26 19:16:56


 
   
Made in us
Pestilent Plague Marine with Blight Grenade





yukishiro1 wrote:
According to the Q&A, in 9th, modifiers are capped at +1/-1. Just thought I'd leave this here, since Chaos is one of the factions most impacted by this, along with aeldari. Lord discordants just got a huge nerf, as did any lists that revolved around making one hard to hit and them forcing people to shoot it. Nurgle possessed bomb as a list is pretty much dead.


They can't be used in conjunction with other units/powers that gives off the same auras, but by themselves, I don't see any big nerf. They're still pretty powerful.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Nurgle possessed bomb relied on stacking up several -to hit modifiers together to make a virtually unhittable lord discordant that the enemy had to shoot before it could shoot the possessed (and then on stacking those same modifiers onto the possessed blob later if the discordant did die). The list simply doesn't work with a max -1 to hit on any one unit.

Any similar list that relies on stacking modifiers (almost always -to hit) just isn't going to work in 9th.
   
Made in ca
Enigmatic Chaos Sorcerer





British Columbia

Still early days but that alone will increase the already eye watering lethality as it's mostly built around rerolls/double actions not + to hit.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
A young business man named Tom Kirby, who was a pupil of mine until he turned greedy, helped the capitalists hunt down and destroy the wargamers. He betrayed and murdered Games Workshop.


 
   
Made in ch
The Dread Evil Lord Varlak





 Eldarain wrote:
Still early days but that alone will increase the already eye watering lethality as it's mostly built around rerolls/double actions not + to hit.


I am more concerned about the ammount of cp we need to use often to Make something work and that we can't Account of that anymore.

It will push us back to herohammer and the odd underpriced unit we have left ....

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/05/26 22:22:13


https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page
A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units."
Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?"
Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?"
GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!"
Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.  
   
Made in ca
Enigmatic Chaos Sorcerer





British Columbia

Not Online!!! wrote:
 Eldarain wrote:
Still early days but that alone will increase the already eye watering lethality as it's mostly built around rerolls/double actions not + to hit.


I am more concerned about the ammount of cp we need to use often to Make something work and that we can't Account of that anymore.

It will push us back to herohammer and the odd underpriced unit we habe left ....

True. We lean heavily on soup/multi detachments to fuel what power/identity we have.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
A young business man named Tom Kirby, who was a pupil of mine until he turned greedy, helped the capitalists hunt down and destroy the wargamers. He betrayed and murdered Games Workshop.


 
   
Made in us
Enigmatic Chaos Sorcerer




The dark hollows of Kentucky

Not Online!!! wrote:
 Eldarain wrote:
Still early days but that alone will increase the already eye watering lethality as it's mostly built around rerolls/double actions not + to hit.


I am more concerned about the ammount of cp we need to use often to Make something work and that we can't Account of that anymore.

It will push us back to herohammer and the odd underpriced unit we have left ....

Depends on how much cp you start with doesn't it? If you can get the equivalent or more of a double battalion without running one that means less points spent on tax options and more for our better units. If I can get that amount of cp reliably you can bet no chapter master is getting his aura against the Eighth. Vox Scream till he's dead or the game ends.

I'm more worried about deep strike costing cp. That'll really mess with Night Lords tactics. Turn two and three is where our magic happens.
   
Made in ca
Enigmatic Chaos Sorcerer





British Columbia

Yeah. With how heavily we lean into Raptorial, Oblits, Terms, Termites/Pods, Daemons that CP cost worried me too. Especially if it's per unit.

Might be my playstyle biases but I'm not seeing nearly as many things inconveniencing Gunlines as melee/aggressive redeployments.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
A young business man named Tom Kirby, who was a pupil of mine until he turned greedy, helped the capitalists hunt down and destroy the wargamers. He betrayed and murdered Games Workshop.


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




I didn't interpret that as saying DSing units that can DS naturally takes CP. Just that literally any unit you want can outflank if you spend a CP for it. I would read that as not having any impact on units that have the DS rule themselves native.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/05/26 22:54:01


 
   
Made in us
Enigmatic Chaos Sorcerer




The dark hollows of Kentucky

Good point. Guess we'll have to wait for more information on the rules. But having to spend cp to deep strike my contemptor in a dreadclaw just on the cusp of possibly having better rules for the dreadclaw is pretty disappointing.
   
Made in us
Daemonic Dreadnought





Eye of Terror

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Good point. Guess we'll have to wait for more information on the rules. But having to spend cp to deep strike my contemptor in a dreadclaw just on the cusp of possibly having better rules for the dreadclaw is pretty disappointing.

We don't know much about what's happening so I'm not going to concern myself with changes.

For me, 8th edition was a play in 5 acts.

Act One was a free for all, 20 Berzerkers piling out of a KAC and 120 respawning Cultists was fun.

Acts 2 and 3 were stable. Rode a Black Legion gunline to an abominable amount of wins. Felt good, Abaddon getting his due after all these years.

Act 4 was crazy. All the Codexes had been released, keeping up with the Joneses meant playtesting everything. Was cleaning out entire sections of the table with Bloodletter Bombs.

Act 5 was all about NuMarines. Figuring out how to adapt to rules that put Chaos at a severe disadvantage meant pulling out my Primarchs and Thousand Sons to play stupidly unfluffy lists.

If this went on much longer, pretty sure I would have been down to Chaos Spawn rush lists. The longer an edition goes on, the weirder CSM get.

The only thing I know is whatever works today won't work tomorrow.

   
Made in hk
Longtime Dakkanaut





I am actually all for modifiers not stacking. That's the easiest way to break the game. And it makes for a bad fix. Oh, you have one combo that lets you create a unit or a hero that is literally unhitable. So your army is fine, op even... I never liked it when I was facing the same kind of cheese, and I usually didn't use it in my army either, but then it sometimes felt that I was gimping myself by choosing not to do it...

Now I just hope they redo all the reroll to hit and reroll to wound aura. Just lengthens the game play if you ask me. Change all the reroll to hit to +1 to hit, and change all the reroll to wound to +1 to wound. Then they will realise how op leutanants are and give them an appropriate point cost.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/05/27 02:37:19


 
   
Made in au
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

Typical pendulum swing for GW. Rather than fix the problem they just create a new one. They need to stop trying a once-size-fits-all approach for fixing complex rules.

What does Miasma of Pestilence do in an Alpha Legion army now?

Industrial Insanity - My Terrain Blog
"GW really needs to understand 'Less is more' when it comes to AoS." - Wha-Mu-077

 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Typical pendulum swing for GW. Rather than fix the problem they just create a new one. They need to stop trying a once-size-fits-all approach for fixing complex rules.

What does Miasma of Pestilence do in an Alpha Legion army now?

GW doesn't understand half the fixes it tries to do.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in de
Nihilistic Necron Lord






Germany

GW said PA books were done with 9th edition in mind. How can they make clandestine -1 to hit, shadeblade -1 to hit, and AL legion trait -1 to hit, when 9th only allows -1/+1 to hit ??
   
Made in ch
The Dread Evil Lord Varlak





 p5freak wrote:
GW said PA books were done with 9th edition in mind. How can they make clandestine -1 to hit, shadeblade -1 to hit, and AL legion trait -1 to hit, when 9th only allows -1/+1 to hit ??


because gw is talking out of it's backside in order to look good.
It's nothing more then corporate speech, managed by the PR department, that much should be obvious from the leaked PDF alone.


And yes you can mark me as sceptical.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page
A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units."
Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?"
Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?"
GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!"
Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.  
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




Not Online!!! wrote:
 p5freak wrote:
GW said PA books were done with 9th edition in mind. How can they make clandestine -1 to hit, shadeblade -1 to hit, and AL legion trait -1 to hit, when 9th only allows -1/+1 to hit ??


because gw is talking out of it's backside in order to look good.
It's nothing more then corporate speech, managed by the PR department, that much should be obvious from the leaked PDF alone.


And yes you can mark me as sceptical.

You could probably point that out on their social media and they'll promptly block you too.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in fi
Locked in the Tower of Amareo





 Gadzilla666 wrote:
I'm more worried about deep strike costing cp. That'll really mess with Night Lords tactics. Turn two and three is where our magic happens.


Maybe the reserve CP is for units WITHOUT existing ability and the CP reserve thing is for units without. It sounds they are INCREASING amount of reserves and putting units that in 8th went to reserve for free to pay CP for reserve seems counter productive for increasing use of reserves.

Could be wrong but for me it sounded "talons can still go for free but if you want to put havocs into reserve that's XCP".

2024 painted/bought: 109/109 
   
Made in ch
The Dread Evil Lord Varlak





Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:
 p5freak wrote:
GW said PA books were done with 9th edition in mind. How can they make clandestine -1 to hit, shadeblade -1 to hit, and AL legion trait -1 to hit, when 9th only allows -1/+1 to hit ??


because gw is talking out of it's backside in order to look good.
It's nothing more then corporate speech, managed by the PR department, that much should be obvious from the leaked PDF alone.


And yes you can mark me as sceptical.

You could probably point that out on their social media and they'll promptly block you too.


I am fairly confident they blocked me the first time i dared to complain about the quality of the FW index list for R&H

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page
A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units."
Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?"
Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?"
GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!"
Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.  
   
Made in us
Enigmatic Chaos Sorcerer




The dark hollows of Kentucky

Not Online!!! wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:
 p5freak wrote:
GW said PA books were done with 9th edition in mind. How can they make clandestine -1 to hit, shadeblade -1 to hit, and AL legion trait -1 to hit, when 9th only allows -1/+1 to hit ??


because gw is talking out of it's backside in order to look good.
It's nothing more then corporate speech, managed by the PR department, that much should be obvious from the leaked PDF alone.


And yes you can mark me as sceptical.

You could probably point that out on their social media and they'll promptly block you too.


I am fairly confident they blocked me the first time i dared to complain about the quality of the FW index list for R&H

Maybe. But sending them two emails a week for a couple months about why the hellforged super heavys didn't have relentless didn't do it for me.
   
Made in gb
Huge Hierodule






Nottingham (yay!)

I imagine that the cap on ±1 means that stacking will confer redundancy

AL and planes with Miasma will still be at -1 to be hit when targeted by +1 stuff and within plasma double tap range

The invisible T-poser was always an exploit and unlikely to last forever. RAI-wise, if you want to be the only thing your opponent can see, they’ve got to be able to actually see you

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/05/27 12:05:35


   
Made in us
Stealthy Warhound Titan Princeps






 techsoldaten wrote:
 BlaxicanX wrote:
I haven't kept tabs on CSM since Vigilus 1 was announced. Do non-soup CSM have any options for forming a good gunline? I'm playing a doubles with a Daemons player who's going all melee, so chaff-clearing and potentially tank-busting falls to me. Are Iron Warriors any good now, or is there a better legion to go with for a shooting-focused army?

Black Legion gunlines. Abaddon, lascannon Havocs, Contemptors with Lascannons, 10x CSM squads with 2 lascannons, and toss in some Scorpius Whirlwinds. Put everyone inside Abaddon's reroll bubble and you will clean your opponents off the board.

If you're playing doubles with an all-melee Daemon's army, that's enough to make people hate you.


So I've been playing a Black Legion Abaddon Lascannon gunline for a while (very often at 1k-1.5k points) and it cannot handle RG or Knights to any capacity. Wondering if you have any tips that could help me out?
The RG I play against tend to have a lot of minimum sized squads that require way too many lascannons to take out, plus a huge outflanking intercessor unit and some in-my-face warsuits and aggressors. My best luck was replacing contemptors with a double Rapid-fire battlecannon knight which could (with some lucky dice...) take out a suppressor squad in cover a turn.
The Knight player just takes Iconoclast Chaos Knights and I can't deal damage to them. Their invuln save blocks too many lascannons and the ones that do get through roll low damage, so an entire ball of havocs with all the re-rolls (abaddon, armour bane lord from devastation battery) and buffs (VotLW, Prescience, Warp Sight Plea) with the Votlw+hit buffed unit shooting twice tends to do ALMOST enough damage to kill a knight... but there's 2 left!
Really struggling on figuring out how to make my boy Abaddon work with his legion but these two armies rip me apart. My little brother started playing Orks recently too and I'm not sure how I'm going to handle 2 units of 30 boyz with lascannons...

I'm on a podcast about (video) game design:
https://makethatgame.com

And I also make tabletop wargaming videos!
https://www.youtube.com/@tableitgaming 
   
Made in hk
Longtime Dakkanaut





You have to take a look at techsoldaten's list. It has quite a lot of space marines in it. And even some cultists. So he has the fodder to block and delay melee units. He also uses beatsticks like Abaddon and/or a daemon prince as a counter charge melee unit. Target priority becomes very important in such a list. His list is a 2000 point list though. Not sure if this changes a lot if you go down to 1000 points. I think Abaddon is a tad too expensive for a 1000 point list.

For 9th ed. I am happy they are reducing stacking and capping it. Look at Nu Marines. Its rules upon rules upon rules. So, if you cap stacking, maybe that will help cap the silliness. I would rather give up our alpha legion hard to hit cheese if everything on stacking is capped properly. Maybe that way they will balance the game better instead of relying on stacking to make one unit broken. Let's face it, how fun is it to play against an unkillable Iron Hands Leviathan or an unhittable Lord discordant?
   
 
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