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Eldenfirefly wrote:
You have to take a look at techsoldaten's list. It has quite a lot of space marines in it. And even some cultists. So he has the fodder to block and delay melee units. He also uses beatsticks like Abaddon and/or a daemon prince as a counter charge melee unit. Target priority becomes very important in such a list. His list is a 2000 point list though. Not sure if this changes a lot if you go down to 1000 points. I think Abaddon is a tad too expensive for a 1000 point list.

For 9th ed. I am happy they are reducing stacking and capping it. Look at Nu Marines. Its rules upon rules upon rules. So, if you cap stacking, maybe that will help cap the silliness. I would rather give up our alpha legion hard to hit cheese if everything on stacking is capped properly. Maybe that way they will balance the game better instead of relying on stacking to make one unit broken. Let's face it, how fun is it to play against an unkillable Iron Hands Leviathan or an unhittable Lord discordant?

I in fact have 3 lists he has posted in my sticky notes on my computer's desktop, and have for a few months now
At 1000 I drop Abaddon for just the Chaos Lord w/ Armour Bane, so it does change the dynamic a little (although for the most part it's still 2 squads hitting on 2+ rerolling 1s, so only the 1 squad misses on 2s).
I guess the key part where it all goes wrong vs Chaos Knights is by the end of turn 2 (sometimes even turn 1) he's done enough damage that I can't possibly clear him out any more. At 2000 points I have a little more wiggle room as I can fit in the contemptors and have an extra turn, maybe 2 of firepower. 4+ invulnerable saves + low # of shots + variable damage spells disaster (31 lascannon shots, let's say all hit between buffs and full rerolls, 8 of those shots wound on 2+ due to VotLW and slaanesh double-shoot but otherwise wounding on 3+ = ~21 wounds, 10.5 get passed saves, average damage would kill a knight but I don't ever get average damage (this is my real problem, low spikes))

I've never had a melee element make it to combat, either. Trail of Destruction makes his Overwatch too deadly, and it lasts all phase so I can't throw sacrificial cultists at it to tie it up/waste the stratagem to let a chainsorc charge in. All in all very sad, feeling very defeated playing Black Legion and losing hope of all tweaks in the mathhammer phase (autocannons instead of lascannons to get more shots and more consistent damage... reaper chaincannons in a rhino instead of 1 lascannon squad...)

Sounds like you need techsoldaton's advice more. He is very experienced with his list. So, he can tell you better. I said before though. If you want gunline, other factions do it better. Ours is not going to be the deadliest gunline.

Have you considered using a jump pack sorceror with death hex? Removing a invul save on a knight would make it a lot more easier to kill. And its worth sacrificing the sorceror if you can get off deathhex and kill the knight in exchange. If other factions are playing netlists, my opinion is that then our lists would suffer. Short of pulling out all the stops and using stuff like chaos soup with possessed bomb cheese, TS sorcerors, etc.

Also, are you playing ITC format ? Or just general missions. Because knights tend to suffer in ITC format because its hard for them to hold more objectives.

Rihgu wrote:

 techsoldaten wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:
I haven't kept tabs on CSM since Vigilus 1 was announced. Do non-soup CSM have any options for forming a good gunline? I'm playing a doubles with a Daemons player who's going all melee, so chaff-clearing and potentially tank-busting falls to me. Are Iron Warriors any good now, or is there a better legion to go with for a shooting-focused army?

Black Legion gunlines. Abaddon, lascannon Havocs, Contemptors with Lascannons, 10x CSM squads with 2 lascannons, and toss in some Scorpius Whirlwinds. Put everyone inside Abaddon's reroll bubble and you will clean your opponents off the board.

If you're playing doubles with an all-melee Daemon's army, that's enough to make people hate you.

So I've been playing a Black Legion Abaddon Lascannon gunline for a while (very often at 1k-1.5k points) and it cannot handle RG or Knights to any capacity. Wondering if you have any tips that could help me out?
The RG I play against tend to have a lot of minimum sized squads that require way too many lascannons to take out, plus a huge outflanking intercessor unit and some in-my-face warsuits and aggressors. My best luck was replacing contemptors with a double Rapid-fire battlecannon knight which could (with some lucky dice...) take out a suppressor squad in cover a turn.
The Knight player just takes Iconoclast Chaos Knights and I can't deal damage to them. Their invuln save blocks too many lascannons and the ones that do get through roll low damage, so an entire ball of havocs with all the re-rolls (abaddon, armour bane lord from devastation battery) and buffs (VotLW, Prescience, Warp Sight Plea) with the Votlw+hit buffed unit shooting twice tends to do ALMOST enough damage to kill a knight... but there's 2 left!
Really struggling on figuring out how to make my boy Abaddon work with his legion but these two armies rip me apart. My little brother started playing Orks recently too and I'm not sure how I'm going to handle 2 units of 30 boyz with lascannons...

Sure, we can talk about that. I usually play at 2k points, it's been a while since I played anything less.

Imperial Knights, Orks, and Dark Eldar are natural counters to a Black Legion gunline. Doesn't mean you can't win, but you may need to switch some things up.

The natural way the gunline works is a combination of Abaddon, a Sorcerer, a Daemon Prince, 3x squads of Lascannon Havocs, 3x squads of 10x CSM with dual lascannons, 2x Contemptors with dual lascannons, and fill out the rest with cultists for screening. Set up on your table edge, keep everyone conga lined around Abaddon for rerolls to hit, and surround your shooters with cultists. Don't move your units unless it's necessary. This should give you at least a couple turns where you can shoot with lascannons but your opponent can't do much in return.

When I'm playing any of the natural counters, I swap out the Havocs or the Contemptors for Scorpius Whirlwinds and put them as far out of line of site as possible. A Scorpius with rerolls to hit will usually take out an Intercessor squad per turn when it's firing twice, which is key to beating NuMarines. 3 of them is about enough to take a Knight to it's lowest tier, wipe out a couple Boys squads, remove a Raider and some Mandrakes, etc.

The key is maintaining distance. You want to make it really hard for your opponent to charge until the 3rd or 4th turn. You should be taking out Knights, Tanks, Elites, Troops, HQs in that order, you have time to be very picky about your targets.

As far as Knights go, the math favors you in most situations. Let's say you have 24 lascannons. You will be hitting / wounding about 40% of the time and doing about 3 damage each time. The invul save is 33%, which means you would be doing about 18 wounds a turn on average. I don't know what he's running, but if it's triple Despoilers with 24" dual melta guns you should be able to shoot up one Knight first turn and be working on the second before it can shoot anything on your side that matters. I think you could find a way to win that match up, you will probably only have one Knight to deal with when it gets to your lines. Tell me more about how those games go, more information would help.

As far as MSU RG goes, you want to bring Scorpius tanks and force him to footslog for a couple turns. The thing about MSU armies - they have a hard time with corners. This is non-intuitive for a gunline, but try and position your forces so your opponent can't bring everything around all at once, then switch up the target priority. I had one game (against Iron Hands) where my Scorpius tanks were behind a building, my lascannons were spread out in my backfield. I was deleting a couple Intercessor squads per turn, which meant he had to bring Repulsors up the table to fight me. Turn 3, got lascannons on the first one and blew it up. Turn 4, did the same to the second Repulsor. He was down to Aggressors and a Lieutenant to face just about my entire army, there was no way for him to win.

As far as Orks go, repeating something I've said before: 20 lascannons means 20 dead Orks per turn. The game is 5 turns and everything else is a bonus. Unless your opponent is doing a green tide, you have the tools to table him as long as you can force him to cross the maximum distance.

I usually shoot up any Lootas first then put everything else into the Boys. It's usually safe to ignore Trukks and Kans, the real threat is the Mobs. When I play Orks, I get very nitpicky about placement of my screens so I can limit their ability to charge. There's one player at my FLGS who likes to bring Stormboys, which can be a pain, along with bikes. But usually games against Orks come down to a single turn, where I have about 30 CSM firing 60 Bolter shots into a couple mobs of Boys. With Abaddon's rerolls to hit, that usually means at least 20 dead Boys and Abaddon and the DP can deal with the rest.

Last thing, when it comes to CP - resist the urge to burn points on Endless Cacophony each turn. Rerolls for wounds / damage are more important with a gunline, you want those especially in the later turns. If you're doing it right, you have at least 8 lascannons at the end of the game.

There's some deployment tricks I could teach you about. Save that for another time.

Thanks for the advice! My opponent prefers Gatling cannons to the thermal cannons so has 36" range so he's usually in range turn 1. He's also got a nasty Castigator he gives the 4++ save relic so he never needs to spend CP to rotate shields. We actually stream so there might be VODs of out last few TTS games but I won't burden you with them. I'll try out some of what you said and if it still goes disastrously I might review a game and take more detailed notes on how it played out for the thread to rip apart my every play haha

Death Hex sorcerer seems likely to give me more mileage in this matchup specifically than the chainsorc who always dies in overwatch.

Just had a thought - if the full Flamers predator remains a thing, tanks being able to shoot whilst in combat could well make it a contender for your first Warptime. Throw it into the middle of the enemy army, get burning and nomming

Nice synergy with fall back blockers - get some Fiends of Slaanesh or an ashen axe in there and it’s a pretty nasty tarpit

Be interesting to see if tanks can overwatch. That would make it utterly brutal

Oh hey, my land raider’s the FW one thar’s got two heavy Flamers, similar thing applies to that and Spartan I guess

 lindsay40k wrote:
Just had a thought - if the full Flamers predator remains a thing, tanks being able to shoot whilst in combat could well make it a contender for your first Warptime. Throw it into the middle of the enemy army, get burning and nomming

Nice synergy with fall back blockers - get some Fiends of Slaanesh or an ashen axe in there and it’s a pretty nasty tarpit

Be interesting to see if tanks can overwatch. That would make it utterly brutal

Oh hey, my land raider’s the FW one thar’s got two heavy Flamers, similar thing applies to that and Spartan I guess

assuming of course, that the pricetag isn't as asinine as it is Right now, i could see that.

also , it0s a predator, so ehhhh.

Not Online!!! wrote:

 lindsay40k wrote:
Just had a thought - if the full Flamers predator remains a thing, tanks being able to shoot whilst in combat could well make it a contender for your first Warptime. Throw it into the middle of the enemy army, get burning and nomming

Nice synergy with fall back blockers - get some Fiends of Slaanesh or an ashen axe in there and it’s a pretty nasty tarpit

Be interesting to see if tanks can overwatch. That would make it utterly brutal

Oh hey, my land raider’s the FW one thar’s got two heavy Flamers, similar thing applies to that and Spartan I guess

assuming of course, that the pricetag isn't as asinine as it is Right now, i could see that.

also , it0s a predator, so ehhhh.

Don't underestimate a vehicle with the machine malifica rule stuck in cc if it can still shoot. They can continue killing targets while regenerating wounds and locking up infantry through cc. I do this with my fellblade. It works. Don't forget, their WS gets better as they degrade.

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

 lindsay40k wrote:
Just had a thought - if the full Flamers predator remains a thing, tanks being able to shoot whilst in combat could well make it a contender for your first Warptime. Throw it into the middle of the enemy army, get burning and nomming

Nice synergy with fall back blockers - get some Fiends of Slaanesh or an ashen axe in there and it’s a pretty nasty tarpit

Be interesting to see if tanks can overwatch. That would make it utterly brutal

Oh hey, my land raider’s the FW one thar’s got two heavy Flamers, similar thing applies to that and Spartan I guess

assuming of course, that the pricetag isn't as asinine as it is Right now, i could see that.

also , it0s a predator, so ehhhh.

Don't underestimate a vehicle with the machine malifica rule stuck in cc if it can still shoot. They can continue killing targets while regenerating wounds and locking up infantry through cc. I do this with my fellblade. It works. Don't forget, their WS gets better as they degrade.

considering we have a rewrite closeish of FW i am still doubtfull, also still a predator with a pricetag that is even less justifyable then the regular one.
But i guess for some shenanigans list i can think it could work

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

 lindsay40k wrote:
Just had a thought - if the full Flamers predator remains a thing, tanks being able to shoot whilst in combat could well make it a contender for your first Warptime. Throw it into the middle of the enemy army, get burning and nomming

Nice synergy with fall back blockers - get some Fiends of Slaanesh or an ashen axe in there and it’s a pretty nasty tarpit

Be interesting to see if tanks can overwatch. That would make it utterly brutal

Oh hey, my land raider’s the FW one thar’s got two heavy Flamers, similar thing applies to that and Spartan I guess

assuming of course, that the pricetag isn't as asinine as it is Right now, i could see that.

also , it0s a predator, so ehhhh.

Don't underestimate a vehicle with the machine malifica rule stuck in cc if it can still shoot. They can continue killing targets while regenerating wounds and locking up infantry through cc. I do this with my fellblade. It works. Don't forget, their WS gets better as they degrade.

considering we have a rewrite closeish of FW i am still doubtfull, also still a predator with a pricetag that is even less justifyable then the regular one.
But i guess for some shenanigans list i can think it could work

True, I wonder if machine malifica will still exist in the rewrite, perhaps daemonic possession will go back to being an option. Though I'd gladly take it back as a default on dreadclaws if it means a points reduction.

Rihgu wrote:
Thanks for the advice! My opponent prefers Gatling cannons to the thermal cannons so has 36" range so he's usually in range turn 1. He's also got a nasty Castigator he gives the 4++ save relic so he never needs to spend CP to rotate shields. We actually stream so there might be VODs of out last few TTS games but I won't burden you with them. I'll try out some of what you said and if it still goes disastrously I might review a game and take more detailed notes on how it played out for the thread to rip apart my every play haha

Death Hex sorcerer seems likely to give me more mileage in this matchup specifically than the chainsorc who always dies in overwatch.

In a way, the Dual Gatling Cannons works in your favor, it means he has fewer other things in his army.

If you're playing a gunline, the first thing you have to work out is deployment. Get your guys back as far as possible on the table and make him work to cross the table. 36" + 12" move technically puts your lascannons in range, but within a radius. Some should not be able to be targeted until turn 2.

That Knight will have a stubber, the 2 gunarms, and maybe a missile launcher. He can only target 4 units at a time max and will probably go after the Contemptors and Havocs because they have the most lascannons.

As far as the Castigator goes, Death Hex is one idea. In another list, I use Ahriman and a couple Sorcerers on Disks in a Supreme Command Detachment. If you are going to try and get the Knight with debuffs, that's how I might approach it.

But it might not be necessary. He's going to charge your lines, you have screens to impede him. Bring out a couple squads of Cultists to slow him down then toss a Daemon Prince in his way. Make it so he doesn't get there until turn 4, when you should have been bracketed. Then just toss CSMs at him to make sure he doesn't get closer.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
I haven't kept tabs on CSM since Vigilus 1 was announced. Do non-soup CSM have any options for forming a good gunline? I'm playing a doubles with a Daemons player who's going all melee, so chaff-clearing and potentially tank-busting falls to me. Are Iron Warriors any good now, or is there a better legion to go with for a shooting-focused army?

If you consider Thousand Sons non-soup,
I had fun building a shooty chaos list in the last months. 3 detachements. Thousand Sons to unlock the Rubric buffing stratagems. Iron Warriors for the Obliterators and the Rubrics. 76 hots -2 AP ignore cover with reroll wound rolls against vehicles are strong. The combination of Thousand Sond and Iron Warriors stratagems makrs them very hard to shift. Third detachement are Emperors Children with a 20 man Noise Marine unit. 120 shots S5 D2 ignore cover reroll wounds kills everything in this game and a copy of it. Had some success with it winning and getting to the top tables in some TTS tournaments. Best part? Its super easy to kill Marines with it.

About this whole thing about board sizes being smaller in 9th edition. It may be a buff to us CSM. I actually feel good about it. Smaller boards buffs melee because there is less inches to cover before getting into combat.

Also, CSM has traditionally been a more mid ranged army. So, if the board size is smaller, then this is good for us because we likely may start off within range to shoot anyway despite being mid ranged. Also, CSM tends be be better at melee (I mean, we are definitely not the best at shooting). So, again, a development that buffs melee against ranged is good for us.

I wasn't sure if 9th edition was going to be terrible for us, because initially, none of what I was hearing seemed to be much good for CSM armies. But I actually feel better now after hearing about this smaller boardsize.

Eldenfirefly wrote:
About this whole thing about board sizes being smaller in 9th edition. It may be a buff to us CSM. I actually feel good about it. Smaller boards buffs melee because there is less inches to cover before getting into combat.

How do you know that ? No mans land could still be 24". A 2k game will have less models, so deployment zones can be smaller.

Eldenfirefly wrote:
About this whole thing about board sizes being smaller in 9th edition. It may be a buff to us CSM. I actually feel good about it. Smaller boards buffs melee because there is less inches to cover before getting into combat.

Also, CSM has traditionally been a more mid ranged army. So, if the board size is smaller, then this is good for us because we likely may start off within range to shoot anyway despite being mid ranged. Also, CSM tends be be better at melee (I mean, we are definitely not the best at shooting). So, again, a development that buffs melee against ranged is good for us.

I wasn't sure if 9th edition was going to be terrible for us, because initially, none of what I was hearing seemed to be much good for CSM armies. But I actually feel better now after hearing about this smaller boardsize.

I am not as optimistic:
Mostly because it doesn't actually help the core melee units for that there are multiple reasons but here a list:
-24" no mans land, so nothing changed there.
- 30 " gun infantry will have a potentially easier time decimating you from the start even.
- Durability for medium fire fights is not given for CSM.

The biggest winner will be bomb units, over efficent melee units with fly or other movement shenanigans in conjunction with movement buffs, so yes , flinging T1 a RC daemonprince into your enemy will be alot easier.

Transports will be even less usefull, because smaller table means less overal ground to manouvre needed. And the modified terrain rules will cripple CSM more in that regard because fly transports are not something we got.
Combine that with the pricehike incoming and i seriously doubt that it will be everything but primaris domination atleast initially.

A smaller board will also make it easier to screen out deep strikes. That hurts csm, some legions more than others. Night Lords are all about deep striking units.

We have no idea how deepstrike will look like. Maybe the 9" will change to 7".

New Fabius Bile rules up on WarCom: https://www.warhammer-community.com/2020/06/08/the-return-of-fabius-bilegw-homepage-post-2/

He hasn't changed too much but his assistant now let's you add or subtract 1 from the D3 roll when you "enhance" units. This is pretty impactful because you are now guaranteed access to +1T and have a 2/3 chance for rolling +1S or +1A if you are targeting them. Seeing that +1T is the best option in most cases anyway, this is actually pretty good.

saint_red wrote:
New Fabius Bile rules up on WarCom: https://www.warhammer-community.com/2020/06/08/the-return-of-fabius-bilegw-homepage-post-2/

He hasn't changed too much but his assistant now let's you add or subtract 1 from the D3 roll when you "enhance" units. This is pretty impactful because you are now guaranteed access to +1T and have a 2/3 chance for rolling +1S or +1A if you are targeting them. Seeing that +1T is the best option in most cases anyway, this is actually pretty good.

Well at least some of it. There could still be something left. Previews rarely show everything.

They didnt show the actual enhance warriors rule. Does the receiving unit still has to roll and suffer a MW on a 6 ? T6 havocs in cover sound nice. Do characters still refuse his dubious gift ?

Based on the latest nugget revealed on warhammer community, vehicles will be able to shoot into combat. And all vehicles and large monsters can move and shoot heavy weapons without suffering the -1 to hit penalty. This is a buff to our daemon engines that have guns (which is most of them). A defiler may actually be viable now. A land raider might be viable too (maybe?).

And plague burst crawlers are now even better since their flamers can just shoot into combat.

If they would just make all our daemon engines basic BS skill 3+ instead of 4+, I would be happy. I never understood why being a Daemon Engine automatically means you are worse at shooting... lol

Okay, update:
- vehicles and monsters can use anything as a pistol other than a blast weapon
- blast weapons inflict a minimum of 3 hits against units of 3-10 and max hits against units of 11+
- If a vehicle’s in CC, you can target a distant unit with one gun and as long as the other kills everything in CC your long ranged attack can proceed
- heavy weapons only get -1 to hit when infantry use them

My takes:
- hybrid Helbrute builds are a lot better. They can shoot on the hoof with full accuracy, and use lascannons and butcher cannons point-blank.
- the flame tank predator is now a definite candidate for T1 Warptime, especially if you can prevent fall back
- if the Land Raider Proteus can still have dual heavy Flamers, it’s also a nasty prospect for rolling up
- Defiler is probably unequivocally good now. Heavy Flamers definitely worth it. Starting near a Gnarlmaw will be tasty
- Kharybdis might be incredible again
- pistolero DP is fun
- Heavy rhino loadouts are probably overcosted, still best to keep them cheap
- DG daemon engines no longer need a Gnarlmaw to play pinball
- DG DP will always benefit from a Spewer
- Forgefiends are still in a weird place, if you love the model you can maybe get one competent round of shooting out of it by trailing a LD

Eldenfirefly wrote:
Based on the latest nugget revealed on warhammer community, vehicles will be able to shoot into combat. And all vehicles and large monsters can move and shoot heavy weapons without suffering the -1 to hit penalty. This is a buff to our daemon engines that have guns (which is most of them). A defiler may actually be viable now. A land raider might be viable too (maybe?).

And plague burst crawlers are now even better since their flamers can just shoot into combat.

If they would just make all our daemon engines basic BS skill 3+ instead of 4+, I would be happy. I never understood why being a Daemon Engine automatically means you are worse at shooting... lol

Apparently daemons are bad shots. Remember when you could give your vehicles daemonic possession and it would make their ballistic skill worse?

These new terrain rules look pretty good for berserkers, as it's gonna be far harder to just pick them off through tiny slits in cover, and the save for cover does not work against charges.

 ArcaneHorror wrote:
These new terrain rules look pretty good for berserkers, as it's gonna be far harder to just pick them off through tiny slits in cover, and the save for cover does not work against charges.

I don’t know, for anyone that was playing with ITC ruins first floor LOS blocking rules or with Nova L’s this seems worse. With the aforementioned terrain rules you could push a unit you wanted to charge with all the way up to the edge of the ruin, hide out of LOS, and pop out and charge next turn. Now you have to remain outside of the ruin which will expose your flanks more and cost you anywhere from 6-10” of movement depending on the size of the central LOS blockers. I can’t help but see this as a downgrade if you were playing under those style tourney rules.

If they consider ruins as obsucring. Even if there are window slits in those ruins, it will obscure all shooting through it. Plus it will have infinite height. I think this is quite a big buff for melee. Basically as long as you advance up the board behind a big piece of obscuring terrain, it will be very challenging for your opponent to get a bead on you.

By the time you break through that obscuring terrain, you are likely quite possibly within charge range. (especially with the smaller table sizes now).

The biggest issue I see would be weapons for fire out of LOS. I hope those are costed appropriately. Because those are now extremely powerful in these new terrain rules.

Eldenfirefly wrote:
If they consider ruins as obsucring. Even if there are window slits in those ruins, it will obscure all shooting through it. Plus it will have infinite height. I think this is quite a big buff for melee. Basically as long as you advance up the board behind a big piece of obscuring terrain, it will be very challenging for your opponent to get a bead on you.

By the time you break through that obscuring terrain, you are likely quite possibly within charge range. (especially with the smaller table sizes now).

The biggest issue I see would be weapons for fire out of LOS. I hope those are costed appropriately. Because those are now extremely powerful in these new terrain rules.

I honestly have a bit of issues with the cover system, it just feels like Halfmeasures for halfmeasures sake. Leading to some rather amusing scenarios, cue Galas 2 marines pic.....
Also wounds beeing used as abstraction again (like with charachters) will be another whole can of worms..

I guess i am a bit let down, considering how "solid the terrain " is supposedly.


Grante small melee squads will profit if the terrain is propperly set up, as for the LOS ignoring weaponry, most of them will be blast, so they'll hike anyways and most of them weren't particulary great to begin with.

Hmmm, and a new article about the new rules on aircraft. Plus... the helldrake is NOT an aircraft. So, no fancy aircraft rules for the Helldrake. And with that, CSM essentially has zero aircraft...

In fact, neither does Chaos daemons. So, chaos has zero aircraft ...

Eldenfirefly wrote:
Hmmm, and a new article about the new rules on aircraft. Plus... the helldrake is NOT an aircraft. So, no fancy aircraft rules for the Helldrake. And with that, CSM essentially has zero aircraft...

In fact, neither does Chaos daemons. So, chaos has zero aircraft ...

Hell talon, hell blade, xiphon interceptor. R&H have valkyries.

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

Eldenfirefly wrote:
Hmmm, and a new article about the new rules on aircraft. Plus... the helldrake is NOT an aircraft. So, no fancy aircraft rules for the Helldrake. And with that, CSM essentially has zero aircraft...

In fact, neither does Chaos daemons. So, chaos has zero aircraft ...

Hell talon, hell blade, xiphon interceptor. R&H have valkyries.

So nothing outside FW, which is kinda in limbo right now.

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

Eldenfirefly wrote:
Based on the latest nugget revealed on warhammer community, vehicles will be able to shoot into combat. And all vehicles and large monsters can move and shoot heavy weapons without suffering the -1 to hit penalty. This is a buff to our daemon engines that have guns (which is most of them). A defiler may actually be viable now. A land raider might be viable too (maybe?).

And plague burst crawlers are now even better since their flamers can just shoot into combat.

If they would just make all our daemon engines basic BS skill 3+ instead of 4+, I would be happy. I never understood why being a Daemon Engine automatically means you are worse at shooting... lol

Apparently daemons are bad shots. Remember when you could give your vehicles daemonic possession and it would make their ballistic skill worse?

in 4th edition demonic possession just made you immune to shaken and stunned not worse BS, 4ht ed IW played 3 predators with demonic possession+mutated hull and i dont remember any malus to BS.