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Erm, is it just me, or did 9th edition get even shootier...

Melee didn't seem to get any buffs much. Or did I miss something...

Eldenfirefly wrote:
Erm, is it just me, or did 9th edition get even shootier...

Melee didn't seem to get any buffs much. Or did I miss something...

No, you're right. Nerfs to charging, stupid coherencey rules, fallback still the same, and a stratagem to get out of tripointing. Melee is still down, shooting is still up.

Minus to hit capped for maximum rerolled bullets pain. LoS blocking turns off if you enter a ruin.

Pretty much go as shooty as possible with characters for melee counter charging I guess.

Yeah, that cap on modifiers to hit and wound hurts us bad. Our entire codex is based on stacking buffs on units that are generally ineffective without them. We need a new codex, yesterday.

Chaos is in very bad shape with the new detachment rules. No dedicated HQ spam detachment means a lot of the usual high damage combos are gone. No more triple discolord, no more Ahriman & friends, etc

 slave.entity wrote:
Chaos is in very bad shape with the new detachment rules. No dedicated HQ spam detachment means a lot of the usual high damage combos are gone. No more triple discolord, no more Ahriman & friends, etc

Considering that it were hq that kept us in it and were the combo enablers for a combo heavy Designed faction, i'd say it Looks Like the Card house is falling apart, not yet on fire but certainly falling apart..

Kinda expected still annoying.

 techsoldaten wrote:
Starting to think about what happens to lists in 9th edition.

Of the 2 mainstays I play, the Black Legion gunline looks like it will survive intact. OTOH, the Daemon Primarch looks more complicated. Can anyone help me sort through this?

Using the screenshots of detachments posted in another thread.

The 8th edition version of this list looks like this.

Supreme Command Detachment
- Magnus
- Ahriman
- Exalted Sorcerer on Disk x 2
- DP with Wings

Super Heavy Aux
- Mortarion

Battalion
- 2x Poxbringers
- 2x Nurglings
- 21 Plaguebringers
- Sicaran

For 9th, I don't see a practical way to run it.

The Supreme Command Detachment (SCD) has changed, there's no single detachment for loading up on HQs. You'd want to take the SCD to get the CP benefit for the Battalion, but it doesn't leave any room for the TS characters. The only way I could get Ahriman and his guys into a list would be a Brigade.

If you want to run Morty and Ahriman in a list, you need to take a SCD and a Auxillary or 2 Auxillaries. If I'm sticking with 2 detachments, that means I'd need 2 just for a pair of characters. I'd have to choose between going Nurgle or TSons with the remaining one.

Am I missing something? Otherwise it looks like this list goes away.

For better or worse this is specifically the kind of list they were trying to kill with the new detachment rules. You'd need to drop the Nurgle stuff if you want the Tzeentch HQ's, which would mean taking the weaker KSons troops.

KSons troops still looking pretty good with those PA buffs, but yeah they can’t serve the role of PBs.

I’m glad I’m not alone in worrying how CSM is gonna function in 9th. Seemed like the main way to compensate for a weak codex was PA-buffed soup, especially since each Legion got only a small number of great strats, so to see results you needed multiple of them. Now bringing that kind of soup list leaves you without enough CP to use the strats you were souping for. Meanwhile, mono-legion suffers from heavy limits to HQs, which were crucial to bringing CSM units to the same level as other midtier factions.

Hate to be doom & gloom but it does seem like CSM needs a hand here.

Pomguo wrote:
KSons troops still looking pretty good with those PA buffs, but yeah they can’t serve the role of PBs.

I’m glad I’m not alone in worrying how CSM is gonna function in 9th. Seemed like the main way to compensate for a weak codex was PA-buffed soup, especially since each Legion got only a small number of great strats, so to see results you needed multiple of them. Now bringing that kind of soup list leaves you without enough CP to use the strats you were souping for. Meanwhile, mono-legion suffers from heavy limits to HQs, which were crucial to bringing CSM units to the same level as other midtier factions.

Hate to be doom & gloom but it does seem like CSM needs a hand here.

Yeah Chaos Soup is looking like it’s pretty well DOA in 9th. All of the Possessed Bomb variants took three detachments not only for the obligatory CP batteries, but because you needed three detachments to put together the necessary synergies to make the list tick (not to mention the cap on to hit modifiers which basically killed it anyway). Looks like we’ll be waiting for at least the Daemons codex (which fingers crossed is soon), but also the CSM codex to come out before we can concoct a list that can compete with SM, Eldar or Tau.

Seems like daemon engine heavy armies would be the way to go for CSM as that got buffed the most. However, I just don't know ... In a meta in 8th ed where even knights can be killed easily each turn, how resilient would a daemon engine army be...

Another CSM army that got buffed would be Abaddon lists, because I am pretty sure Abby would be considered a supreme commander. (It would be a travesty if he isn't), So, we can probably have Abby in a supreme command detachment and get a batallion for free. And Abby is good for dominating the midfield because he is such a boss in melee.

However, we still need other stuff to contest the midboard along with Abby. He will get shot off the board trying to go it alone. The question is what ...

Arachnofiend wrote:For better or worse this is specifically the kind of list they were trying to kill with the new detachment rules. You'd need to drop the Nurgle stuff if you want the Tzeentch HQ's, which would mean taking the weaker KSons troops.

Yeah, figuring that out now.

There's things I could do with Tzaangor, but the point of the Nurgle detachment was holding objectives while Daemon Princes harass opponents in their backlines.

Don't think I'm going to focus on this much for now. Going to miss the Daemon Princes going to work.

Eldenfirefly wrote:Another CSM army that got buffed would be Abaddon lists, because I am pretty sure Abby would be considered a supreme commander. (It would be a travesty if he isn't), So, we can probably have Abby in a supreme command detachment and get a batallion for free. And Abby is good for dominating the midfield because he is such a boss in melee.

However, we still need other stuff to contest the midboard along with Abby. He will get shot off the board trying to go it alone. The question is what ...

Looks like I'll start 9th with my Black Legion Gunline. Abaddon standing back to buff a max-lascannon army.

I've been trying to get away from long-range shooting lists for a while. Not seeing anything better atm.

And it really comes down to changes in the Supreme Command Detachment, didn't know much I depended on it. Other lists are borked too.

Pomguo wrote:KSons troops still looking pretty good with those PA buffs, but yeah they can’t serve the role of PBs.

I’m glad I’m not alone in worrying how CSM is gonna function in 9th. Seemed like the main way to compensate for a weak codex was PA-buffed soup, especially since each Legion got only a small number of great strats, so to see results you needed multiple of them. Now bringing that kind of soup list leaves you without enough CP to use the strats you were souping for. Meanwhile, mono-legion suffers from heavy limits to HQs, which were crucial to bringing CSM units to the same level as other midtier factions.

Hate to be doom & gloom but it does seem like CSM needs a hand here.

Transition is going to be tough. Not sure how much we need in terms of rules support.

Way I see it, current Codex concentrates a lot of value in high-power HQs who buff mediocre units. New rules around detachments constrict our ability to make use of more than a few HQs at any one time. While we have many units with good rules, we never see the benefit from most of them at any one time. Now we get penalized on CPs for trying to bring too much, that's going to be hard.

Keeping an open mind about new Forgeworld rules, but I see us ending up with a lot of single Brigade lists that emphasize one or two styles of fighting. Maybe with a Daemon detachment alongside.

The one thing I don't see happening for Chaos: psychic heavy lists outside of KSons. We're just not going to have the space for these units unless they start pushing Sorcerers into elite slots.

 techsoldaten wrote:
Starting to think about what happens to lists in 9th edition.

Of the 2 mainstays I play, the Black Legion gunline looks like it will survive intact. OTOH, the Daemon Primarch looks more complicated. Can anyone help me sort through this?

Using the screenshots of detachments posted in another thread.

The 8th edition version of this list looks like this.

Supreme Command Detachment
- Magnus
- Ahriman
- Exalted Sorcerer on Disk x 2
- DP with Wings

Super Heavy Aux
- Mortarion

Battalion
- 2x Poxbringers
- 2x Nurglings
- 21 Plaguebringers
- Sicaran

For 9th, I don't see a practical way to run it.

The Supreme Command Detachment (SCD) has changed, there's no single detachment for loading up on HQs. You'd want to take the SCD to get the CP benefit for the Battalion, but it doesn't leave any room for the TS characters. The only way I could get Ahriman and his guys into a list would be a Brigade.

If you want to run Morty and Ahriman in a list, you need to take a SCD and a Auxillary or 2 Auxillaries. If I'm sticking with 2 detachments, that means I'd need 2 just for a pair of characters. I'd have to choose between going Nurgle or TSons with the remaining one.

Am I missing something? Otherwise it looks like this list goes away.

thank God is going away...welcome back mono detachements (almost) list

Eldenfirefly wrote:
Seems like daemon engine heavy armies would be the way to go for CSM as that got buffed the most. However, I just don't know ... In a meta in 8th ed where even knights can be killed easily each turn, how resilient would a daemon engine army be...

Another CSM army that got buffed would be Abaddon lists, because I am pretty sure Abby would be considered a supreme commander. (It would be a travesty if he isn't), So, we can probably have Abby in a supreme command detachment and get a batallion for free. And Abby is good for dominating the midfield because he is such a boss in melee.

However, we still need other stuff to contest the midboard along with Abby. He will get shot off the board trying to go it alone. The question is what ...

i guess the biggest advantage of a daemoneengine list is, that it can ignore about a 3rd of incoming fire due to the 5++.
However, the defieler will get a hike because BC.
Forgefiend might also get a hike because the extoplasma cannons are blast quite likely.
Leaving us with maulerfiends and venomcrawlers core wise.
However, then the next issue shows up, HQ support. the best daemonengine we had period so far was the Lord discordant and to say he is kinda disfunctional with ranged daemonengines is fair i think.
Considering this, we might need to tweak daemonengine lists to hybrid / cqc single model combat style monster mash.
However, it all depends how the prices stack up. The bs 4+ still hurts all daemonengines (except to the decimator but that thing has other issues due to beeing even more flimsy)

Yeah, loss of Supreme Command detachment and CP overheads on spearheads are going to cost us. We already ran Daemonic engine jamborees on a CP deficit, with Soulforged Pack and an extra Warlord Trait costing 2CP, now it’ll be a net 4CP to add them to the army if you’ve already took a DP, Sorc, and MoP - and that’s before we even get onto Daemonkin

Triple LD is still doable, I guess, with three Cultist units?

It’s smaller games I’m starting to think about. Patrol vs Battalion. Interesting.

TJ Lanigan on Chaos in 9th, might have some relevance.

Although leftover 8th sentiment makes it hard to see at times, Patrols do seem really good for armies that don’t want to over-invest in the troop slot. Just at 2k points the 2xHS limit does hurt.

It's definitely going to be interesting. We need to see the points changes and the first FAQ before we start going crazy though.

On a side note I got a pair of Relic Contemptor Dreads for my Alpha Legion and I started to do Soulburners but am hesitant to do that until the Forge World stuff comes out.

Starting to think that I might be better off giving them twin Lascannons with the dreadfist and just calling them Hellbrutes.

Pomguo wrote:
TJ Lanigan on Chaos in 9th, might have some relevance.

Although leftover 8th sentiment makes it hard to see at times, Patrols do seem really good for armies that don’t want to over-invest in the troop slot. Just at 2k points the 2xHS limit does hurt.

Possible to get a short summary for those of us who are not subscribers?

List design is going to be a challenge for a while, a lot of people are talking about Patrol detachments but I'm not bought in. 3 squads of 4ppm Cultists are cheaper than most HQ options, which are mandatory for each extra detachment.

I keep looking at the Brigade and thinking it's a good thing. I can see what I would take for Heavy Support, HQs and Elites, there's an argument to be made for filling it out with Bikers and Cultists.

Cultists are verified at 6, tacs at 15.

Not saying that that wouldn't work but

With the multiple changes to charges, Baleful Icon is looking interesting, especially in conjunction with Flamer-heavy units

If you want to charge a flame predator, Spartan / HH Land Raider with Flamers, flame Defiler, you really can’t reliably do it from over 9”

Not a bad synergy when the DA’s casting an invuln on said units

Not Online!!! wrote:
Cultists are verified at 6, tacs at 15.

Not saying that that wouldn't work but

Regular CSM going to 15pp would make them more unplayable than they already are. Cultists increasing in price by 50% is also a huge nerf, they're already strictly inferior to their guard equivalent and not benefiting from Legion traits is already a huge blow.

All the changes going into 9th practically make CSM as a whole almost unplayable. We need an intercessor equivalent or something...

It does seem like summoning gains utility. Now we can dip into another codex without paying CP for it.

I read that melta guns and combi meltas are now 10 points each. That actually might make them interesting again. 2 5 man squads in a Rhino with their champions can rock 4 melta guns for just 40 points more.

Disembark from a Rhino 3 inch, move advance 6+ d6, then shoot 12 inches range.

Modifiers to hit can't get worse than -1, So, stack on all the negative to hit modifiers and advance move because it is capped at -1 anyway.

If they are 10 it might be ok, but it will still be sooo hard to justify compared to eradicators v.v

I'd probably prefer them on throw away raptors or bikes.

drakerocket wrote:
If they are 10 it might be ok, but it will still be sooo hard to justify compared to eradicators v.v

I'd probably prefer them on throw away raptors or bikes.

That's because Eradicators are just blatant power creep and a unit literally designed to be over powered.

I am hoping that Khorne Berserkers become more viable in this next edition. Any chance of that happening?

There are some things that are in berserker's favor and some things that are not, within the new edition. The ability to engage in close combat seems to be a very important part of the game now, and that favors berserkers. But on the flip side early indications are that this edition will reward defensive play much more than aggression. The days of trying to run berserkers into your opponents backline and do damage are probably over. BUT they will be great at counter charging or clearing and objective mid board.

I think small zerker squads in rhinos or terrax might have a place in 9th. I might try 2x5 man squads in a rhino and see what happens.

Not Online!!! wrote:Cultists are verified at 6, tacs at 15.

Not saying that that wouldn't work but

Is that a rumor or confirmed by GW?

Would drive me nuts if Cultists cost more than Guardsmen. If you took 3 to fill out a Battalion, that's 60 more points than you would have been spending.

lindsay40k wrote:With the multiple changes to charges, Baleful Icon is looking interesting, especially in conjunction with Flamer-heavy units

If you want to charge a flame predator, Spartan / HH Land Raider with Flamers, flame Defiler, you really can’t reliably do it from over 9”

Not a bad synergy when the DA’s casting an invuln on said units

Changes to Overwatch irk me.

Those flame units would reliably kill a few models coming in on the charge. Now they have to pay CP for the opportunity.

I get the benefit of Baleful Icon and Illusory Supplication, just seems like we lost one of the reasons to take flamers.

Spartan089 wrote:Regular CSM going to 15pp would make them more unplayable than they already are. Cultists increasing in price by 50% is also a huge nerf, they're already strictly inferior to their guard equivalent and not benefiting from Legion traits is already a huge blow.

All the changes going into 9th practically make CSM as a whole almost unplayable. We need an intercessor equivalent or something...

There's that argument CSMs with Chaincannons provide more versatility and better overall offense than Intercessors.

But don't Intercessors now have an option to take Chainswords? Indominus and Primaris really confuse me, I don't always know what separates the units.

15ppm CSMs v 19ppm Intercessors with Chainswords would be a mismatch.

Reivax26 wrote:I am hoping that Khorne Berserkers become more viable in this next edition. Any chance of that happening?

Not with the new multicharge rules. Berzerkers will have a massive amount of overkill.

When you declare a charge against 2 targets, it fails unless you can reach both of them. Let's say there's 2 units of Intercessors, one at 3" and one at 6". You roll a 5, you don't get to charge either.

The only play for Berzerkers will be very conservative, making sure you get in on the closest unit. So a 5-man squad will have 40 attacks against, say, 5 Primaris Marines. Doesn't sound very efficient.

Is there anything stopping you from taking bile in a patrol detachment and giving +1 toughness or attack to a 20-man squad of plague Marines or rubrics in your alpha legion detachment?

20 T6 pm with a built-in -1 to hit and the ability to deep strike onto an objective turn 1 sounds pretty yummy in ninth edition.

And obviously they won't be t6 on turn 1 due to the way his ability works, but it's very doable by turn 2.

@techsoldaten, no intercissors and Cultists have been officially confirmed. 20 respectively 6, which has spawned some rather interesting threads allready.
Also, all off 8th you paid more for R&H equivalent to culitsts (but worse) so don't expect too much to change in that regard.
Further the leak for SM was rather complete so i don't have high hopes for that.

Not Online!!! wrote:
@techsoldaten, no intercissors and Cultists have been officially confirmed. 20 respectively 6, which has spawned some rather interesting threads allready.
Also, all off 8th you paid more for R&H equivalent to culitsts (but worse) so don't expect too much to change in that regard.
Further the leak for SM was rather complete so i don't have high hopes for that.

Thank you for the heads up, found the article.

So....

For 20ppm: you can get an Intercessor with 2 wounds, 30" range, AP-1 gun

For 15ppm: you can get a CSM with 1 wound, 24" range, AP0 gun

Would like to say something highly sarcastic, concerned it would be taken seriously.

We need to see all the points changes, but damn, unless Repulsors and Redemptors are 3x the cost of CSM Predators and Helbrutes, I'd say we've hit a crisis point.