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 Gadzilla666 wrote:

Eldenfirefly wrote:
Hmmm, and a new article about the new rules on aircraft. Plus... the helldrake is NOT an aircraft. So, no fancy aircraft rules for the Helldrake. And with that, CSM essentially has zero aircraft...

In fact, neither does Chaos daemons. So, chaos has zero aircraft ...

Hell talon, hell blade, xiphon interceptor. R&H have valkyries.

There is a table on the article listing out exactly which units gain the aircraft keyword.

Valkyrie is on that list. So yeah, R&H can get that. But Hell Blade and Xiphon interveptor are NOT on that list. So, they do not have the aircraft keyword unless
this is FAQed in, or unless forgeword gets a rewrite later that updates these two with the aircraft keyword. Considering chaos is such a big faction that encompasses death guard, thousand sons, CSM, chaos daemons, chaos knights ... I just find it kind of ridiculous that we essentially have zero aircraft (unless we want to play R&H) ,,,

Eldenfirefly wrote:
But Hell Blade and Xiphon interveptor are NOT on that list. So, they do not have the aircraft keyword unless
this is FAQed in, or unless forgeword gets a rewrite later that updates these two with the aircraft keyword. Considering chaos is such a big faction that encompasses death guard, thousand sons, CSM, chaos daemons, chaos knights ... I just find it kind of ridiculous that we essentially have zero aircraft (unless we want to play R&H) ,,,

Read the article :

*** The list of Forge World Flyers receiving the Aircraft keyword will be included in their rules updates on the same day that the new edition is launched.

Ah, ok, missed that important line in italics right at the bottom of the article. My bad, sorry. So, let's cross our fingers and hope the forgeworld update is kind to us for aircraft ... because as of now, GW core book has nothing for us in that respect.

Eldenfirefly wrote:
Ah, ok, missed that important line in italics right at the bottom of the article. My bad, sorry. So, let's cross our fingers and hope the forgeworld update is kind to us for aircraft ... because as of now, GW core book has nothing for us in that respect.

Errrrrnm so long the absolutely awesome looking hell Blades and Talons existed their rules were .... How to put it, iffy at best and absurdly overpriced at worst.

Tbf though both Variants could've been Made into plastic and keeping the helldrake a rarer terror that it should be comparatively to mass producers fightet and fighterbomber aircraft from xana II and the old aircraft from preheresy.

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Apparently daemons are bad shots. Remember when you could give your vehicles daemonic possession and it would make their ballistic skill worse?

Forget being bad shots, they're bad at swinging their fists as well. Equal to the mighty Guardsmen.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Apparently daemons are bad shots. Remember when you could give your vehicles daemonic possession and it would make their ballistic skill worse?

Forget being bad shots, they're bad at swinging their fists as well. Equal to the mighty Guardsmen.

Well, there's allways the decimator, which does both well but also pays a bit too much atm.
Granted, with these changes dual butcher backup around a lord discordant might actually be decent, and , depending if the GW ruleswriter take a hint from IA13 instead of the gakshow indexes for FW we might actually get them to atleast usable levels in general for FW stuff.

And all this is because butcher cannons are good. All it takes is for them to make one bad update to butcher cannons stats or costs in forgeworld and it would render even the currently viable CSM forgeworld units into oblivion.

Eldenfirefly wrote:
And all this is because butcher cannons are good. All it takes is for them to make one bad update to butcher cannons stats or costs in forgeworld and it would render even the currently viable CSM forgeworld units into oblivion.

no, butcher cannons are actually rather bad, comparatively to the cheaper Hades AC, which is in essence the same gun but cheaper, by 20%.
The difference is that the units that use the butcher are generally decent shots(aka bs 3+) whilest the hades is stuck on incompetent bs4+ models. But pay the price for that, whilest the GW daemonengines with the hades ac and ectoplasma just plain overpayed and or didn't profit from traits and or are just too fragile for their pts cost or all of the aftermentioned if you are a forgiefiend or helldrake with hades AC:
FW units atm are priced decently atm (excluding R&H because obvious), with the odd nerfed to unreasonableness weapon choice for their plattforms, looking at the petard for exemple.


the changes to vehicles ignoring -1 for moving and shooting heavy weapons will do good for alot of regular GW Hades AC plattforms. My hades helldrake allready was a wierd one for my enmy to face as a sationary 3+ hades cannon station, now it also becomes a nice tool to attack something in melee aswell as dakkaing happily away. Still overpriced so i hope for a smaller hike for the general hike allready coming.

Str 8 is kinda a big deal over str 7. At str 8, butcher cannons wound a T4 model on a 2+. They wound knights and T8 on a 4+, and they wound T7 on a 3+. That plus the better BS skill, which I agree with you about.

Eldenfirefly wrote:
Str 8 is kinda a big deal over str 7. At str 8, butcher cannons wound a T4 model on a 2+. They wound knights and T8 on a 4+, and they wound T7 on a 3+. That plus the better BS skill, which I agree with you about.

Hades AC are also S8 same profile sans the moral which as of now is kinda worthless.
Then again we should be happy, considering now you can consider a forgefiend trailing a Lord discordant without sacrificing 25% of shots to the BS issues induced by mobile positioning.

Not Online!!! wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Apparently daemons are bad shots. Remember when you could give your vehicles daemonic possession and it would make their ballistic skill worse?

Forget being bad shots, they're bad at swinging their fists as well. Equal to the mighty Guardsmen.

Well, there's allways the decimator, which does both well but also pays a bit too much atm.
Granted, with these changes dual butcher backup around a lord discordant might actually be decent, and , depending if the GW ruleswriter take a hint from IA13 instead of the gakshow indexes for FW we might actually get them to atleast usable levels in general for FW stuff.

Decimators should be able to come back from the dead again.

And for sake gw, fix the legion super heavys points and make our dreadclaws good again!

Random point, but I wonder when we'll get the next box of easy-to-build CSM?

 ArcaneHorror wrote:
Random point, but I wonder when we'll get the next box of easy-to-build CSM?

Why would we expect any more of them?

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 ArcaneHorror wrote:
Random point, but I wonder when we'll get the next box of easy-to-build CSM?

Why would we expect any more of them?

Or want them? Csm should have lots of options due to their inherently non-standardized nature. We should have kits with more options, not less.

Also: with the new vehicle rules would hellflamers be the best option for a cc contemptor's fist guns or would it give up too much range?

Depends on the price of the hellflamer and how usefull Overall flamers are in 9th.

I do wonder though if hellstorm AC for the Talons and Blades once again get decent profiles.

Not Online!!! wrote:
Depends on the price of the hellflamer and how usefull Overall flamers are

Yeah, I did the math and the hellflamers are slightly better on average against geq but less against peq than ectoplasma blasters. That combined with the blasters extra 10 of range means I'll probably be sticking with them assuming they remain the cheaper option.

If my 6 S14 AP-4 D4 attacks hitting on 2s on the charge dreadnought is fighting guardsmen I've done something wrong haven't I?

Of course as you point out, points and possibly the rules for flamers could change.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 ArcaneHorror wrote:
Random point, but I wonder when we'll get the next box of easy-to-build CSM?

Why would we expect any more of them?

The DG ones were great and unique, and more models is more models, as well as new conversion opportunities.

I am seeing translated readings of Bile’s revised rules saying that he can only enhance during your own movement phase, and instead of a mistake causing a MW it’s now instant death

If true, IMO he’s lost most of his niches as an ally, and is probably pretty hard to use in his own legion

Correct, but it's also roll once for the unit, not roll once per model. Still works well on large groups like possessed.

i like how we lost our bike charachters to legends, but SM get new ones.

That faction focus makes it seem more likely they have yet again just nerfed Cultists to "improve" Chaos Marines.

 Eldarain wrote:
That faction focus makes it seem more likely they have yet again just nerfed Cultists to "improve" Chaos Marines.

We've only seen a tiny part of the new rules. It's said that daemon engines will be improved (hopefully on BS and WS). Also, the new overwatch rules look like they could be very helpful for melee units like berzerkers.

 ArcaneHorror wrote:

 Eldarain wrote:
That faction focus makes it seem more likely they have yet again just nerfed Cultists to "improve" Chaos Marines.

We've only seen a tiny part of the new rules. It's said that daemon engines will be improved (hopefully on BS and WS). Also, the new overwatch rules look like they could be very helpful for melee units like berzerkers.

I read it as "improved" by being able to fire in combat and fight. Many of the game wide changes are good for us.

 Eldarain wrote:
That faction focus makes it seem more likely they have yet again just nerfed Cultists to "improve" Chaos Marines.

What do you expect them to do? Actually give csm good rules that don't require stacking buffs on them to make them work? Who do you think we are? Loyalists?

Vortenger wrote:
Correct, but it's also roll once for the unit, not roll once per model. Still works well on large groups like possessed.

Gee golly jeepers, you appear to be right, this is a massive game-changer, where to begin with him now? T5 Poxwalkers, Rubricae, Berzerkers? Not worth using on Oblits, but I could go for ultra Red Butchers. Bile is definitely back on the shortlist now, easy plugin to an infantry list and you can build a list around him as well

 lindsay40k wrote:

Vortenger wrote:
Correct, but it's also roll once for the unit, not roll once per model. Still works well on large groups like possessed.

Gee golly jeepers, you appear to be right, this is a massive game-changer, where to begin with him now? T5 Poxwalkers, Rubricae, Berzerkers? Not worth using on Oblits, but I could go for ultra Red Butchers. Bile is definitely back on the shortlist now, easy plugin to an infantry list and you can build a list around him as well

Keep in mind that the unit must be wholly within 6" of bile to be enhanced.

While it's still not amazing, the ability to deep strike in your own zone right on top of threats might merit keeping some points back for summoning.

 Eldarain wrote:
While it's still not amazing, the ability to deep strike in your own zone right on top of threats might merit keeping some points back for summoning.

Cheapo counter Termines might be a decent deterent.

It sounds like it isn't deep strike, it's only outflank. You can't pop some termines straight into combat in the middle of your deployment zone, you can only do it if they're coming on from a board edge.

yukishiro1 wrote:
It sounds like it isn't deep strike, it's only outflank. You can't pop some termines straight into combat in the middle of your deployment zone, you can only do it if they're coming on from a board edge.

Ha. Damn. I'd finally found something to like about Summoning.