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Latro_ wrote: What we thinking about forge fiends now the pts and 9th ed rules are out?
I'm thinking would 3 be cool with autocannons and a lord discordant.
Just march em forward hitting on 3's! with 24 s8 dm2 shots
Thinking of including this in my world eaters army, wondering what stuff to put on the LD? Maybe a DP might be btter so he can remain hidden i guess re-rolling 1's inst quite as good as hitting on 3's though. If went LD i guess its unholy fortitude on him
I'm possibly looking towards a list that relies heavily on daemon engines, with maulerfiends for World Eaters, forgefiends for Iron Warriors, and venomcrawlers scattered about.
I guess a walking dakka castle might be interesting?
2 lord discordants, (because Backup hell yeah) and a MoP with 3 of these could make for a rather nasty dakka surprise that also could get some decent melee capabilities in, not to mention 4+++ for the daemonengines would be required to atleast give the Lord discordants a fighting chance.
Shame though that regular csm vehicles will still suck..
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
Thats the thing forgefiends are actually not that bad in combat! (4 s6 -1 2dmg attacks)
You can keep them moving forward pumping out fire, get in combat with some okish attacks but then remember in your next turn if you are still in combat boom, 8 shots into the enemy engaged with you.
Fairly tough, good movement, good shooting, good in engagement range, good foot print for board control.
Seems 3 of these boys got really nice in 9th
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2020/07/14 13:19:34
I guess it's handy that maulerfiends are priced out now as mine is magnetised as a forgefiend.
However, the 9th ed forgefiend alongside a lord discordant has very similar stats and price as the 8th ed contemptor when it moved. Price standing still might as well be a point reduction but I think I'd still rather cough up the extra 40pts for the contemptor which doesn't need the support of the LD.
The contemptor is twice as accurate as the forgefiend for 30% more points, don't think the contemptor is completely out the running but it's nice to have options
For anyone interested, I did an analysis on my YouTube channel yesterday on how to play Chaos in 9th Edition based on all the new points changes and FAQs:
Abaddon303 wrote: I guess it's handy that maulerfiends are priced out now as mine is magnetised as a forgefiend.
However, the 9th ed forgefiend alongside a lord discordant has very similar stats and price as the 8th ed contemptor when it moved. Price standing still might as well be a point reduction but I think I'd still rather cough up the extra 40pts for the contemptor which doesn't need the support of the LD.
The contemptor is twice as accurate as the forgefiend for 30% more points, don't think the contemptor is completely out the running but it's nice to have options
The forgefiend is the better option over the contemptor because of its invul save and having 2 gun + a melee weapon. That invul save is going to matter a lot with Eradicators running around. Regen of course helps too. And you can use a strat to get reroll all hits or wounds.
So does everyone play at 2000 points (I know that's tourny standard)?
I play at 1500, and at 1500 I just honestly don't find Disolords that impressive. They're expensive, are heavily incentived to be on the frontlines at all times but are extremely fragile. Everyone I talk to says just take three bro, but... they're expensive. Taking even just two is like 40% of my points for units that will die to 4 or 5 lascannons or heavy mining lasers and can't be protected in any capacity.
Am I missing something with these guys?
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/07/14 21:00:25
BlaxicanX wrote: So does everyone play at 2000 points (I know that's tourny standard)?
I play at 1500, and at 1500 I just honestly don't find Disolords that impressive. They're expensive, are heavily incentived to be on the frontlines at all times but are extremely fragile. Everyone I talk to says just take three bro, but... they're expensive. Taking even just two is like 40% of my points for units that will die to 4 or 5 lascannons or heavy mining lasers.
Am I missing something with these guys?
Not really , you need to invest to Make them durable and half These options die with 9th.
Granted Al still lowers damage alot and you can still improve their ++ SV with a MoP decently they remain bit brittle
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
So with 10 point meltas and 10 point plasma, are meltas feasible? I don’t mean to include whatever broken gak GW decided to hand the marines in 9th to this conversation... please don’t bring up the assault multimelta primaris with 3 wounds as a counter point to melta chosen or melta marines.
Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before. -Kurt Vonnegut
macluvin wrote: So with 10 point meltas and 10 point plasma, are meltas feasible? I don’t mean to include whatever broken gak GW decided to hand the marines in 9th to this conversation... please don’t bring up the assault multimelta primaris with 3 wounds as a counter point to melta chosen or melta marines.
The damage works out like so at the following ranges, against a T7 3+, T8 3+, and T8 3+/4++ target, assuming BS 3+ and no buffs. Overcharging on Plasma.
12"-24" Plasma does .74, .55, and .33 damage.
Melta does nothing.
6"-12" Plasma does 1.48, 1.11, and .67 damage.
Melta does 1.55, 1.17, and .58 damage.
6" or less Plasma does 1.48, 1.11, and .67 damage.
Melta does 2, 1.5, and .75 damage.
Notably, while Melta is marginally better against big targets without Invulns (and even better against a 4++ Knight, if within 6") it's much worse as a general-purpose weapon. A Melta kills an average of less than half an Intercessor a turn, outside of Melta range, whereas a Plasma gun in that same 6"-12" zone kills .93 Intercessors a turn on average.
46.30% chance of a Melta gun killing an Intercessor, increasing to 54.01% within Melta range.
71.16% chance of a Plasma killing at least one Intercessor in Rapid Fire range, 21.43% of killing two.
Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne!
macluvin wrote: So with 10 point meltas and 10 point plasma, are meltas feasible? I don’t mean to include whatever broken gak GW decided to hand the marines in 9th to this conversation... please don’t bring up the assault multimelta primaris with 3 wounds as a counter point to melta chosen or melta marines.
The damage works out like so at the following ranges, against a T7 3+, T8 3+, and T8 3+/4++ target, assuming BS 3+ and no buffs. Overcharging on Plasma.
12"-24" Plasma does .74, .55, and .33 damage.
Melta does nothing.
6"-12" Plasma does 1.48, 1.11, and .67 damage.
Melta does 1.55, 1.17, and .58 damage.
6" or less Plasma does 1.48, 1.11, and .67 damage.
Melta does 2, 1.5, and .75 damage.
Notably, while Melta is marginally better against big targets without Invulns (and even better against a 4++ Knight, if within 6") it's much worse as a general-purpose weapon. A Melta kills an average of less than half an Intercessor a turn, outside of Melta range, whereas a Plasma gun in that same 6"-12" zone kills .93 Intercessors a turn on average.
46.30% chance of a Melta gun killing an Intercessor, increasing to 54.01% within Melta range.
71.16% chance of a Plasma killing at least one Intercessor in Rapid Fire range, 21.43% of killing two.
More proof of what I've been saying for awhile: Plasma should have been s6, overheat for s7 (inline with previous editions) and a few points cheaper. The extra hits at range easily outweight melta's better dmg up close, and that's not even counting differences vs lighter targets. Melta should be dirt cheap this edition with how weak it is.
Plasma is the better option as long as you have some other high strength ranged weapons in your army (lascannons or missiles.) And with the points decrease on both, its a good time for them.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/07/14 22:32:30
Considering the pts balance for weapons also just got fethed via gw turning everything into divisible by 5/10....
Explain to me how a flammer even can attempt to compete?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/07/14 22:44:26
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
Abaddon303 wrote: I guess it's handy that maulerfiends are priced out now as mine is magnetised as a forgefiend.
However, the 9th ed forgefiend alongside a lord discordant has very similar stats and price as the 8th ed contemptor when it moved. Price standing still might as well be a point reduction but I think I'd still rather cough up the extra 40pts for the contemptor which doesn't need the support of the LD.
The contemptor is twice as accurate as the forgefiend for 30% more points, don't think the contemptor is completely out the running but it's nice to have options
The forgefiend is the better option over the contemptor because of its invul save and having 2 gun + a melee weapon. That invul save is going to matter a lot with Eradicators running around. Regen of course helps too. And you can use a strat to get reroll all hits or wounds.
Contemptors have a 5++ against shooting and a 4++ against melee. Also, most Forgefiends. Also, Butcher Cannons are incredible and the Contemptor gets to use Legion Traits, where as the Forgefiend doesn't (hopefully just for now).
But I have a solution: Take both. Contemptors are elites and Forgefiends are heavy support.
On a different note, losing HQ slots has really hurt my lists/playstyle. Going from 2 DP's, a Disco Lord, a Chaos Lord for backfield, and a Sorceror/Dark Apostle for buffs down to just 3 slots. I can buy another detachment, but the points for those extra HQ's got eaten up the rise in cost for troops.
Not Online!!! wrote: Considering the pts balance for weapons also just got fethed via gw turning everything into divisible by 5/10....
Explain to me how a flammer even can attempt to compete?
Oh heavens yes I wanted the flamer to be fun too :( I love the idea of flamers as a weapon of war in this setting. So brutal... except not on the table top. Arson seems like such a chaos-ey thing to do.
Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before. -Kurt Vonnegut
Abaddon303 wrote: I guess it's handy that maulerfiends are priced out now as mine is magnetised as a forgefiend.
However, the 9th ed forgefiend alongside a lord discordant has very similar stats and price as the 8th ed contemptor when it moved. Price standing still might as well be a point reduction but I think I'd still rather cough up the extra 40pts for the contemptor which doesn't need the support of the LD.
The contemptor is twice as accurate as the forgefiend for 30% more points, don't think the contemptor is completely out the running but it's nice to have options
The forgefiend is the better option over the contemptor because of its invul save and having 2 gun + a melee weapon. That invul save is going to matter a lot with Eradicators running around. Regen of course helps too. And you can use a strat to get reroll all hits or wounds.
Contemptors have a 5++ against shooting and a 4++ against melee. Also, most Forgefiends. Also, Butcher Cannons are incredible and the Contemptor gets to use Legion Traits, where as the Forgefiend doesn't (hopefully just for now).
But I have a solution: Take both. Contemptors are elites and Forgefiends are heavy support.
On a different note, losing HQ slots has really hurt my lists/playstyle. Going from 2 DP's, a Disco Lord, a Chaos Lord for backfield, and a Sorceror/Dark Apostle for buffs down to just 3 slots. I can buy another detachment, but the points for those extra HQ's got eaten up the rise in cost for troops.
Oh right, yeah. Not sure how i forgot that. You are correct then.
I am thinking about a Disco Lord with some Venomcrawlers to harass a flank while a big blob of Plague Marines head towards the center objective. With Miasma on them they should be pretty survivable.
Haven't seen its points cost but it was damn good in eighth so as long as it's points didn't go up too astronomically It might be pretty good.
While tinkering with a list today I tried to fit in a Land Raider with some termies but at nearly 300 points for its default loadout the fething thing is just completely useless. Everything got way too expensive for me to ever justify taking such a luxury purchase relative to what it will actually do on the table. If it had objective secured or something it might be worth its points otherwise it's a giant paper weight that can't even hold a point against some guardsmen.
So disappointing that after like 20 years of the vehicle being a piece of crap games workshop is still unable to balance it.
It should have a melee version of the rule they gave the stupid Grav Camino. Can move disembark and charge
BlaxicanX wrote: A young business man named Tom Kirby, who was a pupil of mine until he turned greedy, helped the capitalists hunt down and destroy the wargamers. He betrayed and murdered Games Workshop.
macluvin wrote: So with 10 point meltas and 10 point plasma, are meltas feasible? I don’t mean to include whatever broken gak GW decided to hand the marines in 9th to this conversation... please don’t bring up the assault multimelta primaris with 3 wounds as a counter point to melta chosen or melta marines.
The damage works out like so at the following ranges, against a T7 3+, T8 3+, and T8 3+/4++ target, assuming BS 3+ and no buffs. Overcharging on Plasma.
12"-24" Plasma does .74, .55, and .33 damage.
Melta does nothing.
6"-12" Plasma does 1.48, 1.11, and .67 damage.
Melta does 1.55, 1.17, and .58 damage.
6" or less Plasma does 1.48, 1.11, and .67 damage.
Melta does 2, 1.5, and .75 damage.
Notably, while Melta is marginally better against big targets without Invulns (and even better against a 4++ Knight, if within 6") it's much worse as a general-purpose weapon. A Melta kills an average of less than half an Intercessor a turn, outside of Melta range, whereas a Plasma gun in that same 6"-12" zone kills .93 Intercessors a turn on average.
46.30% chance of a Melta gun killing an Intercessor, increasing to 54.01% within Melta range.
71.16% chance of a Plasma killing at least one Intercessor in Rapid Fire range, 21.43% of killing two.
be interested how blight launchers stack with these two? they are the same pts as melta now. edit: By my maths its a pretty steady 0.69 across 0-24"
so plasma prob still king
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/07/15 05:53:36
Eldenfirefly wrote: Lord of skulls didn't see any point increase. But I am not sure how many would want to pay the 3 CP just to add a LOS into their army.
Might be very fluffy if you go all daemon engine anyway. After all, a LOS is the meanest daemon engine we have in CSM.
He goes from 315 to 350.
KLOS stock loadout weapons also got cheaper by 35 points so its a net 0 change on the KLOS. The biggest penalty with KLOS is the detachment CP costs.
ArcaneHorror wrote:
Latro_ wrote: What we thinking about forge fiends now the pts and 9th ed rules are out?
I'm thinking would 3 be cool with autocannons and a lord discordant.
Just march em forward hitting on 3's! with 24 s8 dm2 shots
Thinking of including this in my world eaters army, wondering what stuff to put on the LD? Maybe a DP might be btter so he can remain hidden i guess re-rolling 1's inst quite as good as hitting on 3's though. If went LD i guess its unholy fortitude on him
I'm possibly looking towards a list that relies heavily on daemon engines, with maulerfiends for World Eaters, forgefiends for Iron Warriors, and venomcrawlers scattered about.
I'm looking to play with (mostly) Slaanesh Daemon Engines in Iron Warriors detach at the moment. It's probably just on the marginal scale of power but it's a tester list to roll up against some shooty lists and see exactly how much legs is in 9th edition shooting lists. Contorted Epitome Slaanesh Herald on something, 2x Disco, 3x Venom, 2x Heldrake as a core. Decimators i'm wishwashing on butcher cannon vs the dual melee+flamer choice but they're also definitely coming in some amount. Blood Slaughterers of Khorne are real cute with Venomcrawlers, and taking them in a Soulforge detach allows advance+charge with a single BSoK even though they're not benefitting from the Slaanesh loci. Since legion traits don't confer to Daemon Engines it's basically a choice of stratagems for what legion to label it as. Right now i'm choosing IW for the most stratagems that apply to daemon engines. 1cp heal 3 wounds. 1cp 6+++ ("stacks" with Daemon codex Delightful Agonies to protect a targeted unit. Roll 2d6, if either are a 6+ ignore the wound). 1cp worsen an opponent unit's AP by 1, 1CP select friendly unit to reroll wound rolls against a vehicle (can activate it for shooting phase or fight phase).
You get a pretty solid level of shenanigans in the army. 100ish T6/T7/T8 wounds, every model is regenerating wounds from various sources. 1 per turn per daemon engine. 3 from IW Stratagem, Venomcrawlers get 1 when killing a model in fight, Lords Discordant can heal themselves or others d3. The Contorted Epitome is two pages of headache inducing rules for your oppoent, especially giving the unit Warlord for Bewitching Aura (opponents models within 6" get -1 attacks) and taking the Forbidden gem to "just say no" to someones HQ for a phase that may just be extremely vital to surviving an alpha strike after your T1 charging, also The Contorted Epitome is a pretty great tool in the box to prevent opponents falling back with key units.
A cute option that may have real legs is Black Legion specifically to abuse the World Killers stratagem on the opening turns to turn off your opponents ability to prevent you from taking primary victory points. It's fast units, advancing, firing assault weapons, and charging. Great board control off the hop and you get just enough CP in the game to hose your opponent off of sniping your primary points from your low model army. If it's the only stratagem you're casting you get all 5 turns of popping it. Luckily enough, BL has no other stratagems worth a crap for Daemon Engines so it'll be the only thing you're doing anyways. Well, except for Daemonforge every turn, so count on a solid 3 turns of World Killing. Unfortunately i'm not sure if it just turns off ObSec, or if your opponents units are literally incapable of holding the objective if you're on it. My hunch is it just turns off Obsec, making this not worth taking in reality because 2 of your Daemon engines are just gonna lose the point to that blob of obsec with 3 units left that you couldn't quite finish chewing through.
Couple other cute options. Taking the IW Insidium relic (adds <Daemon> to the model holding the relic) on a Sorc with Jetpack if running BSoK to keep Daemon keyword across the detachments so you can run Khorne daemon engines (if you want to run IW as a Patrol/Batt you need slaanesh cultists/CSM troops for a battleforged list). With BSoK lists i'd be running spearhead IW and dropping the obsec troops and sharing Daemon keyword across detachments instead of Slaanesh. Leaving the daemonettes in the Daemon Patrol to make up some obsec options. This opens up really reliable access to Dark Hereticus where you're wanting warptime and the much better CSM Delightful Agonies (5+++ in CSM Codex, Daemon codex is 6+++). Catch is you still can't cast both. Same spiel with running an Insidium Chaos Lord on a bike/jetpack for some Rerolling 1's to hit across whatever you want it on. Most certainly some butcher cannon Decimators. Note that Insidium isn't required to run Khorne Daemon engines, but IMHO if you're going that route with Slaanesh daemon loci you're doing this to get some extra CSMHQ shenanigans. Also note that running Spearhead/whatever only gives you 2 HQ. So you're bringing 1 Lords Discordant now, and when he gets shot right off the table turn 1 your effectiveness across the board just got hosed, so almost everything is being spent to protect him. Delightful Agonies, IW Stratagems, full shebang.
Want to fix your trash obsec problem and focus on Daemon Engine shooting? Emperor's Children is the bet. Take some Noise Marines and with butcher cannon decimators, some Oblits, and you've got decent firepower. But my hunch here is shooting is most certainly not where we're going to want to be. You'll just get shot right off the table by the armies that can actually pull of shooting.
The whole point of this endeavor is that I want to play every phase of the game. Stratagems+Psyker+Move+Advance+Shoot+Charge. So just the tiniest Slaanesh Daemon patrol to get some Loci offers a lot of boons to playing a mono-vehicle army. I expect any armies with pretty good deepstrike options are just going to hose this list as it has extremely limited options for screening out deepstrike. I'm not sure what the final result of Daemon+Daemon Engines is going to look like but there is something decently competitive floating around somewhere.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2020/07/15 07:18:48
macluvin wrote: So with 10 point meltas and 10 point plasma, are meltas feasible? I don’t mean to include whatever broken gak GW decided to hand the marines in 9th to this conversation... please don’t bring up the assault multimelta primaris with 3 wounds as a counter point to melta chosen or melta marines.
The damage works out like so at the following ranges, against a T7 3+, T8 3+, and T8 3+/4++ target, assuming BS 3+ and no buffs. Overcharging on Plasma.
12"-24" Plasma does .74, .55, and .33 damage.
Melta does nothing.
6"-12" Plasma does 1.48, 1.11, and .67 damage.
Melta does 1.55, 1.17, and .58 damage.
6" or less Plasma does 1.48, 1.11, and .67 damage.
Melta does 2, 1.5, and .75 damage.
Notably, while Melta is marginally better against big targets without Invulns (and even better against a 4++ Knight, if within 6") it's much worse as a general-purpose weapon. A Melta kills an average of less than half an Intercessor a turn, outside of Melta range, whereas a Plasma gun in that same 6"-12" zone kills .93 Intercessors a turn on average.
46.30% chance of a Melta gun killing an Intercessor, increasing to 54.01% within Melta range.
71.16% chance of a Plasma killing at least one Intercessor in Rapid Fire range, 21.43% of killing two.
This is assuming you overcharge all the time with Plasma guns? I think going forward, I would be a lot more careful with plasma guns overcharging now. I read that a 1 is always a instant suicide. So, there is a 1/6 chance to die if you overcharge. Given that it is important to stay alive as long as possible because staying on an objective until the start of your next turn is so important. I wouldn't overcharge unless it was so essential to kill my target. Like even if I was shooting at a T4, I wouldn't over charge, I would rather use veterans of the long war because I don't want to risk dying from my plama gun blowing up.
I would be more interested to see how the math is based on not overcharging the plasma.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I think psychic is going to be severely nerfed in 9th edition. There are less HQ slots available, and you kind of also want the HQs that have buff auras. A Sorceror has no buff auras (unless you are TS exalted sorceror).
So, if you spend more HQ slots on sorcerors, then you have no aura buffs. Also, given the limited number of sorcerors you are likely to be running, smites are going to be a luxury, because you probably would rather cast that one or two key psychic power instead.
An interesting tidbit. If you being bringers of despair detachment, you can give a terminator sorceror the warlord trait that gives the reroll 1 to hit aura. So, now your termi sorceror also becomes a chaos lord as well.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/07/15 07:24:54
With the new rules, forgefiends being able to fire into melee definitely makes them better, but if I take the jaws, then I lose the ectoplasma cannon and its blast ability. Maybe one with jaws and one with the cannon.
Not Online!!! wrote: Considering the pts balance for weapons also just got fethed via gw turning everything into divisible by 5/10....
Explain to me how a flammer even can attempt to compete?
Oh heavens yes I wanted the flamer to be fun too :( I love the idea of flamers as a weapon of war in this setting. So brutal... except not on the table top. Arson seems like such a chaos-ey thing to do.
at one point in time, i wanted to make a dragonwarrior warband, you know, the renegades beeing in love with flamers and melta...
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
ArcaneHorror wrote: With the new rules, forgefiends being able to fire into melee definitely makes them better, but if I take the jaws, then I lose the ectoplasma cannon and its blast ability. Maybe one with jaws and one with the cannon.
yea but if you were running 3 thats another 75pts. Starts getting a lil bit expensive.
Latro_ wrote: 1's inst always instant death i dont think cmd re-roll is restricted but you can still re-roll to hit.
Also nothing stopping a lord still giving you a re-roll 1 to hit.
It was changed so that plasma guns on get hot on unmodified ones, which is a buff because -1 to hit no longer makes your gun more likely to explode. You can still reroll it, it's only the end result that matters.
On a similar note, I'm really liking Helbrutes w/ Fist/Scourge and Plasma Cannon. Blast has come in handy for me against 6-model squads of Aggressors and Centurions and it serves as a pretty nice follow-up/bodyguard for a Daemon Prince.
Plasma in general seems to be ideal for CSM right now. We're already a mid-field army and we can always use more high strength, high AP, and D2 weapons.
I'm currently brewing:
Spoiler:
Alpha Legion
Devastation Battery Battalion
1 Daemon Prince w/ Wings and 2x Malefic Talons - Warptime or Diabolic Strength
1 Daemon Prince w/ Wings and 2x Malefic Talons - Clandestine, Intoxicating Elixir, & Diabolic Strength or Warptime
1 Chaos Lord in Terminator Armor with Combi-Melta and Chainfist - Armourbane & Daemon's Eye
- I've had to cut Obliterators because they are feeling really bad with the price hike and losing the reroll, but Havocs still benefit greatly
1 Helbrute w/ Plasma Cannon and Helbrute Fist w/ Combi-Bolter
1 Helbrute w/ Plasma Cannon and Helbrute Fist w/ Combi-Bolter
- They are fast enough to stay within the aura of Daemon Princes and provide an excellent follow-up.
10 Chaos Space Marines, Sarge has Combi-Bolter & Chainsword, 2 Plasma Guns
10 Chaos Space Marines, Sarge has Combi-Bolter & Chainsword, 2 Plasma Guns
10 Chaos Space Marines, Sarge has Combi-Bolter & Chainsword, 2 Plasma Guns
5 Chaos Bikers w/ 2 Flamers and a Combi-Flamer, Chainswords replacing Pistols on the others.
5 Havocs w/ 4 Lascannons
5 Havocs w/ 4 Lascannons
1 Predator w/ Autocannon and Heavy Bolters
2000 on the nose.
I feel that this list has a ton of board pressure. It can alpha strike with the Prince slingshot if needed, followed up by another Prince, 2 Helbrutes, and Bikers.
The rest is a potent firebase that can safely move up the board with no penalties to shoot.
The Havocs ignore cover, are fairly durable, and eat tanks. I could definitely see an argument for dropping the Predator for an Autocannon Forgefiend.
I also don't think it would really work with any other Legion. That -1 to hit is still pretty critical to making Helbrutes and Havocs anything close to viable. Even then, it's very tempting to switch to 2 Patrols/1 Battalion and 1 Patrol to pick up a Sorceror and a Lord Discordant.
why you keep thiking as in 8th ed? ANYTHING (almost) went up, we will see an edition close to 4th or 5ht editions, time to ponder what put in list and dont relay on 200+ model to flood the table and win the game playing maybe 3 turns.
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Latro_ wrote: 1's inst always instant death i dont think cmd re-roll is restricted but you can still re-roll to hit.
Also nothing stopping a lord still giving you a re-roll 1 to hit.
It was changed so that plasma guns on get hot on unmodified ones, which is a buff because -1 to hit no longer makes your gun more likely to explode. You can still reroll it, it's only the end result that matters.
On a similar note, I'm really liking Helbrutes w/ Fist/Scourge and Plasma Cannon. Blast has come in handy for me against 6-model squads of Aggressors and Centurions and it serves as a pretty nice follow-up/bodyguard for a Daemon Prince.
Plasma in general seems to be ideal for CSM right now. We're already a mid-field army and we can always use more high strength, high AP, and D2 weapons.
I'm currently brewing:
Spoiler:
Alpha Legion
Devastation Battery Battalion
1 Daemon Prince w/ Wings and 2x Malefic Talons - Warptime or Diabolic Strength
1 Daemon Prince w/ Wings and 2x Malefic Talons - Clandestine, Intoxicating Elixir, & Diabolic Strength or Warptime
1 Chaos Lord in Terminator Armor with Combi-Melta and Chainfist - Armourbane & Daemon's Eye
- I've had to cut Obliterators because they are feeling really bad with the price hike and losing the reroll, but Havocs still benefit greatly
1 Helbrute w/ Plasma Cannon and Helbrute Fist w/ Combi-Bolter
1 Helbrute w/ Plasma Cannon and Helbrute Fist w/ Combi-Bolter
- They are fast enough to stay within the aura of Daemon Princes and provide an excellent follow-up.
10 Chaos Space Marines, Sarge has Combi-Bolter & Chainsword, 2 Plasma Guns
10 Chaos Space Marines, Sarge has Combi-Bolter & Chainsword, 2 Plasma Guns
10 Chaos Space Marines, Sarge has Combi-Bolter & Chainsword, 2 Plasma Guns
5 Chaos Bikers w/ 2 Flamers and a Combi-Flamer, Chainswords replacing Pistols on the others.
5 Havocs w/ 4 Lascannons
5 Havocs w/ 4 Lascannons
1 Predator w/ Autocannon and Heavy Bolters
2000 on the nose.
I feel that this list has a ton of board pressure. It can alpha strike with the Prince slingshot if needed, followed up by another Prince, 2 Helbrutes, and Bikers.
The rest is a potent firebase that can safely move up the board with no penalties to shoot.
The Havocs ignore cover, are fairly durable, and eat tanks. I could definitely see an argument for dropping the Predator for an Autocannon Forgefiend.
I also don't think it would really work with any other Legion. That -1 to hit is still pretty critical to making Helbrutes and Havocs anything close to viable. Even then, it's very tempting to switch to 2 Patrols/1 Battalion and 1 Patrol to pick up a Sorceror and a Lord Discordant.
Not really a fan of the predator, also wouldn't 6 5 man suqds be a better option? more split fire and less blast weaponry?
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.