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Reivax26 wrote: I love this entire edition so far. It almost seems like it was designed specifically to screw with gunlines which I have always despised playing against.
I am thinking about Transports with Venomcrawlers helping on counter punches for center objectives.
Honestly, I’m just delighted at the prospect that I’ll be able to find reliable builds other than ‘all the Havocs’
BlaxicanX wrote:Can any of you Black Legion players shed some light on how you go about running them? I'm piqued by the concept of a BL list that just takes a smorgasbord of stuff from the army book.
Really mixed feelings between gunlines and harassment troops.
Will probably build my first 9th list around a Chainlord, Haarken, Raptors, and swarms of Cultists. I'll probably marry it with a gunline once I'm comfortable.
Objectives are more important this edition and Black Legion can deny multiple per turn. That's a big deal.
Eldenfirefly wrote:And I won't exactly consider a Rhino with a combi flamer as a flamer tank... lol
Foolishness. GW gives us a way to break shrink wrap around transports and the community says no thanks.
Eldenfirefly wrote:I think we just won't be able to match what imperium brings to the table in terms of flame tanks.
Forget flame tanks. Look at the cost of a Repulsor. Very, very efficient, can't see people wanting much else.
Eldenfirefly wrote:So, I have been watching quite a few 9th ed games on tabletop titans and tabletop tactics (both are great channels). The smaller tables and the main mission really do affect shooty armies. You simply can't just sit there in a castle and shoot.
Maybe. This is giving me fits.
Abaddon giving rerolls to a fire base is still pretty powerful.
Eldenfirefly wrote:You could shoot your opponent off the board from your shooty castle, but if that happens by turn 4, or 5, you have already lost the game. Because your opponent could have racked up 30 to 45 primary mission points while you got 0 to 10 even by the time you shot him to pieces.
You can cut your opponent's points in half with a Chainlord, some Raptors and the World Killers Stratagem.
Coupled with an adequate gunline, this would win a lot of games.
lindsay40k wrote:
Reivax26 wrote: I love this entire edition so far. It almost seems like it was designed specifically to screw with gunlines which I have always despised playing against.
I am thinking about Transports with Venomcrawlers helping on counter punches for center objectives.
Honestly, I’m just delighted at the prospect that I’ll be able to find reliable builds other than ‘all the Havocs’
Laying gunlines to rest might be premature.
They might not be static anymore, but they're not going away. Charge mechanics do not favor melee.
I actually agree with Techsoldaten. It may be premature to lay gunlines to rest. Shooting is just as deadly as it was in 8th edition. Its just that we can't ignore objectives and only focus on shooting the opponent off the table as well. What Techsoldaten suggested is more of a VP denial strategy rather than taking VPs from objectives aggressively. A squad of 5 raptors is basically 5 wounds in power armor. Good luck trying to hold a objective in your enemy lines or in the mid board until the start of your next turn with just that. You also need to consider the fact that raptors are not obsec. If your opponent has 5 primaris on that objective while you have 5 raptors, he will still take that objective.
The black legion strategem is great, but it will be a VP denial strategy, like I said. Because a few raptor squads and a jumppack chain lord won't be able to hold objectives until the start of your next turn if you are planning to hit multiple objectives.
Not unless you are planning on deep striking everything onto just one objective. Also, you can already see how it diminishes your shooting power somewhat. Because if you allocate the points to 3 squads of raptors and a chain lord and put them in deepstrike, then that's 400 points which are not being kitted out towards your shooty list, so your shooting just got 400 points weaker. Now your list is no longer a pure leafblower list at all.
We will have to see how it shakes out. But there may be some lists which are tailored towards holding objectives. And there will be some, like Tech's gunline list that is still primarily shooting, but will now add in some elements of deep strike to disrupt an objective focused army.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/07/13 00:15:18
Raptors can disrupt for sure. If there is some lightly defended objective far away, they could do the trick. But if its against a major push to take and hold an objective, then probably not. Even if they succeed in taking a lightly defended objective. Now the opponent is free to shoot them off the board or counter charge them. 5 raptors aren't that durable. So maybe you succeeded in disrupting your opponent, but after that, you still don't hold that objective.
That's why I said VP denial. Maybe a shooty list with raptors is going for a low VP game where both sides don't get as much VP.
This brings me to mass assault lists as well (world eaters and Khorne lists). WE lists love to surge with everything up the field. But what happens if some deep striker hits your rear objective on turn 2 and 3? Can you afford to so easily give up one or two rear objectives just because your entire army is already up the field and wants to rip and tear? But anything that is kept behind then weakens your main assault wave, and the question is whether whatever you leave in the rear is even capable of fending off an attacker. WE units like berserkers suffer from being fragile. They hit hard, but die easily. So again, the challenge would be to hold on to an objective till the start of your next turn after you have cleared out the enemies from it.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/07/13 00:45:00
Eh, I’m sure gunline will still be viable with the appropriate elements, I’m just a little tired of it being my best and strongest build. Looking forwards to trying a host of terminators, for starters.
Certainly more viable then 23ppm warptalons without the claws....
But then again, atleast warp talons still exist, meanwhile Elysians, R&H and corsairs have bitten the dust in favour of more primaris..
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/07/13 10:20:18
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
There are some big changes to the weapon costs. Like infantry lascannons at 15 points. It almost a no brainer now to put a lascannon onto a CSM troop of 5. Previously it was 55+25 = 80 points. Now its 70+15 = 85 points. So, that's barely a 5 point increase.
And Lascannon Havocs actually got cheaper as a whole.Now they are 17x5+60 = 145. Previously, they were 14x5+100 = 170 points.
Also, melta guns are now only 10 points. That's cheap too. Chosen are 15 points. A 6 man chosen with 6 melta guns is 150 points. Spend CP, put them in strategic reserve. Boom, appear out of nowhere and fire 6 melta shots into your opponent's face, spend another 2 CP on Cocophany and do it again. I don't know how many vehicles can survive 12 melta shots. Its just 150 points. Its cheaper than trying to do that with Terminators. You could do the same with Plasma gun chosen. Same exact cost for 12 plasma shots into the face or 24 shots with cacophony.
Speaking of Terminators. We have one of the cheapest terminators across all factions and armies. And given how taking and holding objectives is so important now, maybe its time to take a hard look at terminators. While everything went up in cost, our terminators stayed the same. A basic chaos termi is 23+3+1 = 27 points and comes with a combi bolter, chain axe and termi armor. So, has 2 wounds, a 2+ save, can shoot 4 shots at 24 inches (after moving 5 inches) and can fight with Str 5, AP -1 attacks. Its a very versatile decent package. A squad of 5 such terminators only cost 135 points. Even if we swop one of the chain axe for a power fist, that only brings it to 145 points. This is a package that can shoot, can fight, can punch out vehicles, and can take and hold objectives.
I really kind of like the idea of a black legion terminator steel core of 30 terminators led by Abbadon dealing bolter death while stomping up the midfield. Whatever they can't beat in melee, they can probably shoot to death with Abby giving all their bolter shots rerolls. And Abby himself is super good at fighting. And if speed is a necessity, Abby and his termi friends can move advance while still being able to shoot their combi bolters.
We have the CP to spam cacophony every turn now. Mix in 3 squads of lascannon havocs. Now we can choose between 16 lascannons shots or 160 bolter shots!
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2020/07/13 16:14:34
ArcaneHorror wrote: Mostly ok, but I'm pissed that the MOP went up so much. Also, I hope that the fiends get better stats with these points increases.
Everything in the game went up, he didn't go up that much.
Looking like demon engine spam is the better option initially.
If want to go for daemon engine spam, I wonder if it might be better to spend 3 SP to go with a spearhead detachment instead of the usual
standard batallion detachment. Its not like our troops choices are good anyway, so why not just take zero troops and go full bore Daemon engine and vehicles?
I mean, honestly I think a defiler might do a better job guarding a rear objective while lobbing battle cannon shells+lascannon shots than a squad of CSM or a bunch of cultists. And by saving on taking sub par troops, now we can spend the points saved on even more daemon engines and vehicles! lol It will be like the CSM version of a tank column except instead of tanks, ours will be daemon engines.
Or double spearhead detachment. Then can go up to 12 heavy support choices! lol So we can bring 3 defilers, 3 forgefiends, 3 venomcrawlers and 3 mauler fiends! lol
A spearhead detachment can have 1 Lord Disco, 1 master of possession, 2 hellbrutes, and 6 daemon engines. Still got points? Then spend another 3 more CP and bring in a Lord of skulls lol. After all, once you go full daemon engines army, other than demon forge, there isn't that much else to spend CP on.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/07/13 18:43:24
GW never cease to amaze me with their internal balance. Not had time to look at other faction point drops but the defiler going down in price and maulerfiend going up just seems like madness. The defiler was already far superior and now it can move and shoot without penalty and fire away in combat??
Mutilators not changing price once again establish themselves as a potential left field choice. DS onto an objective in cover, not easy to shift 9 wounds in terminator armour at just over 100pts. If they need to melee bully something off an objective they are more than capable too.
I already love moving Abaddon into the centre surrounded by a big group of bikes. The drop on melta price makes that even more interesting.
The drop to infantry heavy weapons makes raptors very appealing. Presumably the heavies have been priced to reflect the -1 to hit compared to vehicles so they have really lucked out.
I'd also be interested to try running a couple of vanguards, or a patrol and vanguard in order to upgrade having to take marines as troop tax and instead run units of chosen. The great thing about chosen is you don't have to load them up for bear. Just treat them like you would troops, include some cheap ablative wounds. You lose obsec but you break free of the 2 special weapons limit and they all can take a chainsword for free giving you triple the attacks. All for an extra 5pts. No brainer!
I'm assuming that there are more changes to see. Do we know what's in the rest of the CA book yet? This is just the points changes.
My observations
- Tacticals went up to 15, CSM are 14. This probably means we aren't getting Doctrine equivalent rules. Which sucks, because an extra AP and super doctrine bonus are worth WAY more than 1 point. Also chosen now cost the same as Tacticals.
- Cultists are 6pts. Guardsmen are 5. And cultists don't get traits. Ooof.
- Berzerkers, plague marines, and rubrics went up 2 pts. Noise marines went up 3. And sonic blasters went from 4 to 5. So noise marines with blasters now cost 21pts. That's pretty prohibitive. But why did sonic blasters go up? I'd assume its because they think they are worth more now that there will be so much terrain on the board. And that might be the case. Blast master down 2pts means there may be a role for MSU squads with a BM if you're EC.
- Missile Launchers came down 5pts for infantry, and frag missiles have blast. This means the missile launcher is actually worth using now. In the past, it lost to other options because Frag missiles were really bad.
- All power weapons are now 5pts. Power axe was already the most efficient option overall, and now it is by even more. But single lightning claw might have a use now.
- Power fist went up to 10pts, and chainfist went down to 10pts. So no reason not to run all chainfists on your terminators now (unless you don't need ap-4 and really want the chance at a 3dmg hit)
- Terminators stayed at 23pts, which actually means they improved by 3-4pts, as most things in their pts range went up by that much. But combi-bolters went from 2-3. Terminators were only a few pts away from being worthwhile before. Now they are worth a serious look. Combi plasma is also down a point. So chainaxe+combi plasma is now 34pts, which is actually very respectable.
- Terminator characters also made out very well. Terminator lord didn't change, and sorc went up 5 from the force weapons being rolled in. Terminator is now 10pts cheaper than Jump Pack in both cases.
- Defiler's points didn't change. Twin heavy bolter and flamer went up, reaper ac is the same, and havoc is down a point to 5. Scourge is also down 2pts. So the cheapest loadout is havoc+reaper for 135pts, which is nuts for how durable they are. (And the twin heavy flamer is worth considering now that it can be fired in melee, but scourge + reaper is probably still best at 140pts.)
- Forgefiend went up 5 base, and hades autocannon went up 5. Ectoplasma didn't change. And Daemon Jaws went from 8 to 0! So proportionally, forgefiend didn't change much. So 135 for 2x hades and Jaws. This coupled with hybrid vehicles already getting big buffs in 9th should make it a solid unit (finally.)
- Maulerfiend on the other hand went up 20pts. But lasher tendrils came down 2, and magma cutter down 1. And the magma cutters might actually be worth using now that it can shoot them in melee. (EDIT: They already could, forgot they were pistol)
- Winged Prince and Disco lord got nerfed pretty hard. Both went up 30pts. Regular prince only went up 4. But Warp bolter went up 2, and paired malefic talons are up 5.
- Lord of skulls went up from 315-350, but its Daemongore cannon went down 10, its Gorestorm cannon went from 74 to 30!, and its other weapons didn't change. So as long as you're running the Gorestorm, it actually got cheaper! And most Knights went up by ~10%, so this makes it look quite nice.
- Landraiders went down 5pts, which isn't enough to make them worth using (even with cheaper terminators.) And Rhinos went up 10 base, so still very limited use.
- Special characters barely moved. Khârn went down 5pts. Abaddon only went up 10. He's only 220! Compared to where prince and Disco lords are now, that's a big deal.
- Predators and vindicators only went up 5. Heavy bolters going up 5pts on vehicles and lascannons going down 5 means you're gonna run las sponson preds for 5pts cheaper than before. That's pretty good considering.
So overall, our fate is mostly still a matter of getting our traits fixed. The internal balance of our book seems to be swinging away from spamming princes and discos, and towards hybrid vehicles.
Thousand Sons:
- Exalted Sorcs down 12pts, and got their force staff free, so down 20! They are now 100/120 on disc, which might make them useful.
- Tzaangors only went up 1pt, so that's not bad.
- Scarab occult went up 4pts, and their swords 1pt, but their guns are still 3. so 31pts total. That's not great.
- Tzaangor enlightened up 5pts. That's a 38% increase, one of the largest. Their spears became free (only 1 pt change), but bows didn't change. So they're probably hosed.
- Horrors went up a lot. Ouch. Other daemons also got larger than 10% increases. Double ouch.
- Ahriman up by 19pts on foot, but only 4pts on disc? Odd.
- Magnus up 20pts, which isn't much of a % increase compared to other superheavies.
Death Guard:
- Plague marines only went up 2 as said earlier, which isn't bad. Plasma gun now costs the same as blight launcher, which makes it more worthwhile. And other special weapons changed. Plague belcher down 2, plague spewer down 5, mace of contagion down 2, but flail of corruption up by 5!
- Blight Haulers down 5pts base, but multimeltas up 5 to compensate. But still, not changing in cost matters, and they benefit a lot from 9th ed changes, like other hybrid daemon engines.
- Plagueburst crawler up 30pts, which is huge. Heavy slugger down from 6 to 0 which helps, and rothail down from 12 to 5. But plaguespitters up by 3pts. This big increase likely is because its gained blast on the mortar, and indirect fire weapons will be more valuable in 9th with the new terrain. Probably still decent.
- Typhus and Mortarion only up by small amounts.
- Blightlords only went up 1 point base, and 1 for combi-bolters (but down 1 on combi-plasma.) They were already solid, and now should be great.
- Deathshrounds went up by 7pts, weapon down by 2pts. Seems to have gone from unusable to more unusable.
- Poxwalker from 5 to 7, probably dead?
- Characters haven't changed much.
- Bloat drone went up 16pts, and gets hit by plaguespitters going up 3. Fleshmower down 2pts, plague probe down 5, and heavy blight launcher down 10. Still seems a bit high compared to other daemon engine increases.
One things for sure, I'm glad I finished my Leviathan Dread during lockdown and haven't had a chance to use it yet! With the points hike he's looking like he won't ever see action...
I mean, every vehicle now gets the Daemonic machine spirit perk, so the LR’s not really *lost* anything. I can’t tell from the comments if they’ve had a tiny reduction in price or a big one?
I’m pretty sure we already had to pay reinforcement points to turn an enemy into a spawn, I think the change there is a rewrite to refer to engagement range
Eldenfirefly wrote: Lord of skulls didn't see any point increase. But I am not sure how many would want to pay the 3 CP just to add a LOS into their army.
Might be very fluffy if you go all daemon engine anyway. After all, a LOS is the meanest daemon engine we have in CSM.
I'm gona run him lol.
He can hit anything 1" horizontal and 5" vertical. That dude is going to terrorize buildings better then kong!
Reivax26 wrote: I don't think that we are bottom tier but we are definitely going to have to approach list building in a different way.
Hell that's true of a lot of armies.
Dunno... points aside, feels like we're not playing to our advantages.
We have Warptime. You have to be on an objective at the start of the turn to score. We lost some of the benefit of being able to scramble up the board.
Berserkers have all these attacks. Multicharges fail if you miss one of your targets. Overkill is going to be an issue.
HQs have great auras. Conga lines are going to be harder to pull off because of Morale.
Cultists / Possessed can take large numbers of models. Those units will now be prime targets for blast weapons.
I can think of a few other things that concern me. Will be interested in seeing what a competitive list looks like.
Eldenfirefly wrote: Lord of skulls didn't see any point increase. But I am not sure how many would want to pay the 3 CP just to add a LOS into their army.
Might be very fluffy if you go all daemon engine anyway. After all, a LOS is the meanest daemon engine we have in CSM.
I'm gona run him lol.
He can hit anything 1" horizontal and 5" vertical. That dude is going to terrorize buildings better then kong!
His hull reaches up to like at least 8 inches up because it includes his chest and even his head! He could probably hit units which are even on the third floor! lol
Reivax26 wrote: I don't think that we are bottom tier but we are definitely going to have to approach list building in a different way.
Hell that's true of a lot of armies.
Dunno... points aside, feels like we're not playing to our advantages.
We have Warptime. You have to be on an objective at the start of the turn to score. We lost some of the benefit of being able to scramble up the board.
Berserkers have all these attacks. Multicharges fail if you miss one of your targets. Overkill is going to be an issue.
HQs have great auras. Conga lines are going to be harder to pull off because of Morale.
Cultists / Possessed can take large numbers of models. Those units will now be prime targets for blast weapons.
I can think of a few other things that concern me. Will be interested in seeing what a competitive list looks like.
Yeah, big changes in 9th ed. Will have to see how it shakes out. I am kinda concerned, but have to keep an open mind. Daemon Engine spam feels like a one trick pony, and it feels like running a knight army. Sooner or later, you will run into a guy who brought nothing but anti tank guns and it will be the paper to your rock. I think everyone will seen realise how important it is to be able to dominate and hold midboard objectives while protecting your own rear objectives against attack. The problem is I am still kinda racking my brains to think of what would be the best way to hold those midboard objectives.
Because while we have terminators, loyalists have storm shield terminators, and that is definitely not a fight in our favour if those two units get into a brawl in the midboard...
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2020/07/14 04:13:12
We can’t Warptime a Flyer any more. Dang, that came in handy when I threw a Heldrake up a 72” board to eat Njal Stormcaller
Knights Tyrant need LoS with their character sniper missile
Didn’t see anything massive, mostly just rewording to refer to engagement range and look out, sir
Heldrakes still aren't AIRCRAFT, though, are they? So you might still be picking Njal out of your teeth.
Bharring wrote: At worst, you'll spend all your time and money on a hobby you don't enjoy, hate everything you're doing, and drive no value out of what should be the best times of your life.
We can’t Warptime a Flyer any more. Dang, that came in handy when I threw a Heldrake up a 72” board to eat Njal Stormcaller
Knights Tyrant need LoS with their character sniper missile
Didn’t see anything massive, mostly just rewording to refer to engagement range and look out, sir
Heldrakes still aren't AIRCRAFT, though, are they? So you might still be picking Njal out of your teeth.
Considering that the helldrake allways was well more like a real fyling monster and less then an aircraft it might still happen indeed.
Also, atleast now you can pick the Hades AC bit more often aswell thanks to the improved vehicle rules.
ArcaneHorror wrote: Mostly ok, but I'm pissed that the MOP went up so much. Also, I hope that the fiends get better stats with these points increases.
Everything in the game went up, he didn't go up that much.
Looking like demon engine spam is the better option initially.
I know, I'm still a little hurt since that's one of my favorite units, both fluff and rules-wise. At least Kharn went down five points.
I don't really get the MoP increase, i still think he is decidedly worse then a sorcerer, granted the MoP has some spells that in the right circumstances are vastly better but i feel like those circumstances still aren't really desireable...
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/07/14 08:09:31
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
Eldenfirefly wrote: Lord of skulls didn't see any point increase. But I am not sure how many would want to pay the 3 CP just to add a LOS into their army.
Might be very fluffy if you go all daemon engine anyway. After all, a LOS is the meanest daemon engine we have in CSM.
What we thinking about forge fiends now the pts and 9th ed rules are out?
I'm thinking would 3 be cool with autocannons and a lord discordant.
Just march em forward hitting on 3's! with 24 s8 dm2 shots
Thinking of including this in my world eaters army, wondering what stuff to put on the LD? Maybe a DP might be btter so he can remain hidden i guess re-rolling 1's inst quite as good as hitting on 3's though. If went LD i guess its unholy fortitude on him
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2020/07/14 12:31:50
