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 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:
It'd be great if we had more elite slot character options. The Master of Executions doesn't need to be an HQ, and perhaps even the exalted champion. We still lack a source of re-roll 1's to wound when shooting aura. That could go on an elite character.

Honestly, how do CSM not have a banner-wielding elite option yet? Call it an 'Invigorator" or something, let it give models that die a chance to shoot/fight. Heck, give it banner options like a Vexilus.

Especially since the Judiciar is an elite (almost definitely because it's designed around HQ slots being far more precious in 9th), I could see the MoE moved to Elite and the Exalted Champion turned into a Lieutenant effect


What I'd really like to see is a strat to take another HQ option or a way to integrate Daemons/Knights that doesn't feel terrible. Daemonic Ritual could definitely be reworked into a strat.

dominuschao wrote:
9th has made me come back to cultist blobs actually. Currently running alpha legion/1ksons one of my favorite combos. With the ability to forward deploy and teleport from multiple sources the army can really adjust to anything. A large blog of cultists and tzaangors are both very good for getting there early and outnumbering obsec at a decent price. Also cultists are more durable due to moral changes making tide better. Backed up by rubrics for risen.

Sadly many of my go to units are gonna collect dust for awhile. But on the bright side I get to bring back defilers, scarab occult termies and even spawn. 4-5 spawn from strategic reserve are murderous with the 1ksons strat.

Actually gonna run warp talons in place of oblits next as my main conceal target. See how that goes..

Which strat?

Abaddon303 wrote:
I think the LOS is in a weird place because I don't think they addressed its rules in the FAQ. It always had the rule that it could fire when engaged. If i understand the new rules correctly, the difference is, the standard 9th rules are that you have to fire at the engaged enemies while the LOS is free to shoot at whoever it likes.

If the LOS keeps that rule it's actually a huge advantage over knights because you can quite easily bog down knights with bodies and force it to put all of it's shots into something like 20 poxwalkers point blank. It can't fire blast weapons so I'm not sure any knight has a chance to free itself to shoot it's big guns at anything tasty.

In 9th edition, superheavies are the only ones that can fall back and still shoot.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 p5freak wrote:
I really like GPs, M7, T5, W5, 5+ Inv, hitting on 2s, 6 attacks on the charge with S6 AP-2 Dd3 for 65 pts. in 9th is good. Playing them as RC would allow them to charge after advancing. They can board a rhino for protection.

Yeah, I think they are great too! If I needed a cheap fighty character, Greater Possessed are the obvious choice. They are one third the cost of DP while being only slightly worse at melee.

About Black Legion Rubrics. I think their primary role would be to serve as look out sir and escort to Abaddon. Obsec would be less important as a role compared to that. Becaue Abaddon is 220 points. In any case, if they do their job right can escort Abaddon onto a midboard objective, I don't think there will be any obsec troops left after 1 or 2 rounds of fighting there. Abbadon can chew through an entire knight in 1 turn, he would obliterate a bunch of obsec troops if he was in close combat with them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Would like to raise a point about being character heavy again. I think we need to remember that look out sir is a lot weaker this edition. It is a lot easier to snipe characters. Even if you are next to a squad of something chunky, like 5 terminators, your opponent only needs to take it down to 2 models, and it stops providing look out sir for your character. The only other protection then is to put your character next to a vehicle. And well, with the amount of anti tank likely to be around, vehicles go down quickly too.

I feel that if we put too many points into characters, we will suffer from having too few bodies to actually contest objectives and protect our characters. After a while, we will either clump them all up into one big moving castle, and that in itself risks overcomitting points into just one spot. Or we will have them all going off to do their own thing, desperate to shore up objectives in different places. And this then opens them up to be sniped.

If its a cheap character, maybe it wouldn't be so bad. But how many of our characters are that cheap? a Flying DP is 200 points. That is definitely not a throwaway unit. Abaddon is also 220 points, and the best way to kill him is to shoot him because he is such a beast in close combat. Even stuff like sorcerers are near 100 points. If I could spare a lascannon shot at a sorcerer out in the open, that's a free 100 point kill I just picked up if it hits and I deal 4 damage because sorcerers don't even have an invul save.

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:
It'd be great if we had more elite slot character options. The Master of Executions doesn't need to be an HQ, and perhaps even the exalted champion. We still lack a source of re-roll 1's to wound when shooting aura. That could go on an elite character.

It would be more needed to have actual Mobility options back for our charachters....

I would be so happy if we could just have a lord on a bike or jump lord that is priced the same as the superior loyalist variety... Kinda hurts that they took that away and left it to the loyalists and left them in legends to rot over power creep...

macluvin wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:
It'd be great if we had more elite slot character options. The Master of Executions doesn't need to be an HQ, and perhaps even the exalted champion. We still lack a source of re-roll 1's to wound when shooting aura. That could go on an elite character.

It would be more needed to have actual Mobility options back for our charachters....

I would be so happy if we could just have a lord on a bike or jump lord that is priced the same as the superior loyalist variety... Kinda hurts that they took that away and left it to the loyalists and left them in legends to rot over power creep...

Tbh I wish we could get multipart kits back for foot/jump pack, terminator, and bike. Just include a bunch of heads and weapons and say it builds lord/sorc/mop/moe/ec, etc in each configuration. It would be so easy for them to do, even while keeping to having a model.

but that would cut into their baseline overpriced HQ selling strategy drudge.
can't have that, now pay 60CHF for abbadon when you don't want a squat termite lord...

 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:
Tbh I wish we could get multipart kits back for foot/jump pack, terminator, and bike. Just include a bunch of heads and weapons and say it builds lord/sorc/mop/moe/ec, etc in each configuration. It would be so easy for them to do, even while keeping to having a model.

GW doesn't like kitbashing anymore. Only recent examples I can think of are Creations of Bile and new CSM builds that were taking parts from expensive AOS kits to make models more Khornate.

I have a feeling we're never going to see mobile HQs because GW doesn't really know what to do with the range. CSM have to be balanced against Primaris, but GW never gets around to improving the statlines for models like Chosen / Possessed / Havocs / Cult Troops, which should probably be 2 wounds. They have a big list of legacy units and a long history of ignoring them in favor of OP rules for new HQs.

Until this trend changes, I don't think we will see any movement on common-sense mobility options. The models are set in stone.

GW has no idea what it wants CSMs to be or play. Are they more elite marines+1? Are they a cannon fodder horde army? Are legions of veterans of the long war? All, neither some? Played chaos since 3rd and there has never been a consistent design.

On topic, what are people's lists looking like for 9th? I'm having quite a hard time coming up with a list that even looks like it could compete.

I'm actually not convinced by the anti kitbash sentiment. If GW had any sense they'd know how much more expenditure goes into kitbashing. It's all product bring sold. Even purchases from bits sellers means they sold the kit in the first place.
If they didn't want kitbashing they'd actively discourage it in stores or tournaments. They also wouldn't showcase it on warcom or even in codexes. They like to claim they are a modelling company first and foremost they'd be crazy to cut themselves off from that side of the hobby.
I do believe they are genuinely hampered by the court ruling. They can't support options they don't produce but they don't necessarily care how you represent the rules they do produce.

Abaddon303 wrote:
I'm actually not convinced by the anti kitbash sentiment. If GW had any sense they'd know how much more expenditure goes into kitbashing. It's all product bring sold. Even purchases from bits sellers means they sold the kit in the first place.
If they didn't want kitbashing they'd actively discourage it in stores or tournaments. They also wouldn't showcase it on warcom or even in codexes. They like to claim they are a modelling company first and foremost they'd be crazy to cut themselves off from that side of the hobby.
I do believe they are genuinely hampered by the court ruling. They can't support options they don't produce but they don't necessarily care how you represent the rules they do produce.

GW is all for using their kits to kitbash new models. except now they make kits with less options in them so you don't have as many extra bits when you build your unit (terminators anyone?).
And yeah, the chapterhouse thing made them forced to delete most datasheets that didn't have un-kitbashed models. It totally sucks for many armies because it just makes it so you lose all the fluffy options, especially for the characters.

Why can't our HQs use a bike? why cant the Eldar Autarch (who has mastered all shrines of combat) not take anything more than a sword and grenades? Why can't drukhari HQs get wings grafted onto them.

Even more good questions :

Why can't CSM take ancient weaponry that they kept since the HH but the loyalists can (Volkite), land speeders, mortars.
Why can't CSM use all the tanks from the HH? Sabre tank, Bombard, all the sicaran options, all the doritos options, Arquitor, basilisk, medusa.
Why can't CSM have legion traits that are on part with the loyalists
Why can't CSM have legion traits that work on all their units
Why can't CSM have models that feel like actual veterans of the long war

I've got a couple of rough lists but I can't be bothered to manually sort out points so I'm waiting for battlescribe to update so I can check points cost. The list I'm looking forward to trying out is basically a patrol and a vanguard.

++ Patrol Detachment ++

Legion: Black Legion

Council of Traitors [-1CP]

Gifts of Chaos (1 Relic) [-1CP]

+ HQ +

Abaddon the Despoiler [+2CP]: Warlord

Sorcerer in Terminator Armour: Angelsbane, Combi-bolter, Council of Traitors, Force sword, Mark of Slaanesh, Warp Lord

+ Troops +

Chaos Space Marines: Mark of Slaanesh
. Aspiring Champion: Chainaxe, Combi-plasma
. 3x Marine w/ Boltgun: 3x Bolt pistol, 3x Boltgun, 3x Frag & Krak grenades
. Marine w/ Heavy or Special Weapon: Plasma gun

+ Fast Attack +

Bikers: Mark of Slaanesh
. Biker: Chainsword, Combi-bolter, Meltagun
. Biker: Chainsword, Combi-bolter, Meltagun
. Biker: Chainsword, Combi-bolter
. Biker: Chainsword, Combi-bolter
. Biker: Chainsword, Combi-bolter
. Biker Champion: Combi-bolter, Combi-melta

+ Heavy Support +

Havocs: Mark of Slaanesh
. Aspiring Champion: Chainsword, Combi-bolter
. 4x Havoc w/ reaper chaincannon: 4x Frag & Krak grenades, 4x Reaper chaincannon

Havocs: Mark of Slaanesh
. Aspiring Champion: Boltgun, Chainsword
. 4x Havoc w/ lascannon: 4x Frag & Krak grenades, 4x Lascannon

+ Dedicated Transport +

Chaos Rhino: Combi-bolter, No Chaos Mark

Chaos Rhino: Combi-bolter, No Chaos Mark

++ Vanguard Detachment ++

Legion: Black Legion

Dark Disciples: No Chaos Mark
. 2x Dark Disciple: 2x Close combat weapon

+ HQ +

Chaos Lord with Jump Pack: Chainsword, Combi-bolter, Combi-melta, Ghorisvex's Teeth, No Chaos Mark

Dark Apostle: 5. Trusted War-leader, Benediction of Darkness, Blissful Devotion, Council of Traitors, Mark of Slaanesh

+ Elites +

Chosen: No Chaos Mark
. Chosen: Chainaxe
. Chosen: Chainaxe
. Chosen Champion: Chainaxe, Combi-plasma
. Chosen w/ Combi or Special weapon: Chainaxe, Combi-bolter
. Chosen w/ Combi or Special weapon: Chainaxe, Combi-bolter
. Chosen w/ Combi or Special weapon: Chainaxe, Combi-plasma
. Chosen w/ Combi or Special weapon: Chainaxe, Combi-plasma
. Chosen w/ Heavy or Special weapon: Reaper chaincannon

Greater Possessed
. Greater Possessed: No Chaos Mark

Hellforged Contemptor Dreadnought: 2x Butcher cannon, Havoc launcher, No Chaos Mark

Mutilators: No chaos mark
. 3x Mutilator: 3x Fleshmetal weapons

That should be well under 2000pts, start with 12CP and will gain another ten throughout the game so I'm planning to really indulge in strategies. votlw, EC and world killers if needed. I can also fight again anywhere I need it. Will probably stick tip of the spear on the bikers first turn too. I have a lot of anti infantry and high rate of fire so hoping to clear opposition's obsec and get board control early on. If I can afford it after point changes I'll probably look to add in a daemon engine to put pressure on and distract from my contemptor.

Just saw a battle report where 60 cultists were taken out in one turn (plus other stuff too). Cultists are just so fragile. These didn't die to morale (it was a 9th ed game). They were literally killed down to the last man. I am going to run Rhinos with troops in them for sure. At least if you want to get at my obsec units, you have to crack the Rhinos first.

Also, I am beginning to see how some armies make use of a super punchy, fast unit with very high saves can be used. These will move up fast, and pose an immediate threat. They often draw a massive amount of firepower because they are tough or have high saves. But the key thing is, they are kind of a trap. They are a distraction carnefix. Because the opponent is drawn into spending massive amounts of resources to wipe out this huge threatening unit, they then lack the firepower to take care of everything else. It tips the power of balance on the objectives.

If instead, you had a suitable tarpit unit that could be charged into close combat and tie up that unit. It would still be scary, but then he will be using a ton of points wrapped in that unit to destroy the tarpit unit, or he falls back and then he can't shoot or charge with his "deathstar" unit. (This only works if it is not a titanic unit). The deathstar unit in this example was this massive deathstar unit of warkicj conclave singing spears. It was huge, scary, and forced the CSM player to devote far too much resources to try and kill it.

Meanwhile, you would then able to allocate all of your firepower towards the units which are thretening the objectives and tip the power balance in your favour. I am not sure if CSM can create such a distraction carnefix so easily. But my point about the throwaway chaos knight would be one example.

Turn 1, the chaos knight stomps up the midboard, is up the in face, and towers menancingly. So on the opponent's turn, they would of course devote a lot of shooting at it to kill it. And it has a 4++ save with raise ion shields.

If we can achieve a similar effect with a purely CSM unit it would be good. Though I am not sure how. Because it needs to be a fast mobile unit that can hit hard, but is very resilient as well. Those shining spear warlock conclave used psychic to give themselves a 4++ invul. That made them pretty tough.

The shining spears deathstar is an example of a unit that can't be blocked either. Even if there were scouts deployed as blockers, that unit would have flown up the midboard and been an immediate threat once the Eldar player started his turn.

At this point, possibly Helldrakes would fill that role? Maybe? Except they aren't that tough, nor are they that scary... A buffed up flying DP with psychic or relic ?

BTW, I saw another battle report where a CSM player tried to run a Daemon engine themed list. Turn 1, 3 decimaters and 1 Lord discordant blown off the table. By turn 3, he had conceded cos he literally had nothing left. sigh.

Defilers and Spawn are both really points efficient for distraction units. And anything with enough stacked buffs is decently survivable. EC Possessed Bomb at T5 from Elixirs with -1 to hit from an Apostle, a 4++ from Cursed Earth, and a 5+++ from Agonies would probably tank fire terrifyingly well.

Hmm, Abaddon is kind of giving me headaches. I really want to include him, but I am reluctant to just have him in the backline buffing my heavy support shooting. He costs far too much just for that role. I feel that to get maximum use out of Abby, we need him in the thick of things so that he can utilise his awesome melee capabilities.So far, I have three ideas for him. Which do you think is better?

Strike force 1) Put Abby with a squad of 9 bikes with 3 plasma guns. Supported by CSM in Rhinos. The entire force will aim for one objective, possibly two. Abaddon will try his best to move advance so that he can keep up.

Strike force 2) Put Abby with a big squad of Rubric Marines (300 points worth). Again supported by CSM in Rhinos.

Strike force 3) Put Abby with a squad of 10 Terminators with a combi plasma and 2 reaper autocannons. Also with CSM in 2 Rhinos.

Which do you think is best? And one consideration that strikes me about this... Abby slows down strike force version 1 by alot. Rhinos can move 12, bikes can also move 12. Abby can at most only move 6+d6,

If I were to replace Abby with a flying Daemon Prince. I still get aura of reroll 1, awesome fighting ability, I gain 1 psychic spell and most crucially, now the entire strike force 1 moves at 12 inches, and if I advanced, it can move even further. This is not a small thing. A flying DP in strike force 1 has the option to be deep into enemy lines by turn 2.It seems like I lose more than I gain by insisting on taking Abby. Because while his aura will be awesome on the guns on the Rhinos, and the bikes, is it worth what I lose given that a DP also gives a reroll 1 aura...

On buffing heavy support. I prefer to take havocs with lascannons for my heavy support. And I am thinking of taking a termi or normal chaos lord, give him the Vigilance specialist devastation Battery warlord trait and relic and he can then buff those havocs probably just as well as Abby can.

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

Abaddon303 wrote:
I'm actually not convinced by the anti kitbash sentiment. If GW had any sense they'd know how much more expenditure goes into kitbashing. It's all product bring sold. Even purchases from bits sellers means they sold the kit in the first place.
If they didn't want kitbashing they'd actively discourage it in stores or tournaments. They also wouldn't showcase it on warcom or even in codexes. They like to claim they are a modelling company first and foremost they'd be crazy to cut themselves off from that side of the hobby.
I do believe they are genuinely hampered by the court ruling. They can't support options they don't produce but they don't necessarily care how you represent the rules they do produce.

GW is all for using their kits to kitbash new models. except now they make kits with less options in them so you don't have as many extra bits when you build your unit (terminators anyone?).
And yeah, the chapterhouse thing made them forced to delete most datasheets that didn't have un-kitbashed models. It totally sucks for many armies because it just makes it so you lose all the fluffy options, especially for the characters.

Why can't our HQs use a bike? why cant the Eldar Autarch (who has mastered all shrines of combat) not take anything more than a sword and grenades? Why can't drukhari HQs get wings grafted onto them.

Even more good questions :

Why can't CSM take ancient weaponry that they kept since the HH but the loyalists can (Volkite), land speeders, mortars.
Why can't CSM use all the tanks from the HH? Sabre tank, Bombard, all the sicaran options, all the doritos options, Arquitor, basilisk, medusa.
Why can't CSM have legion traits that are on part with the loyalists
Why can't CSM have legion traits that work on all their units
Why can't CSM have models that feel like actual veterans of the long war

Perfect time for that Dave Chappell meme... “why? Because feth em, that’s why!” What GW says about non primaris players XD

macluvin wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

Abaddon303 wrote:
I'm actually not convinced by the anti kitbash sentiment. If GW had any sense they'd know how much more expenditure goes into kitbashing. It's all product bring sold. Even purchases from bits sellers means they sold the kit in the first place.
If they didn't want kitbashing they'd actively discourage it in stores or tournaments. They also wouldn't showcase it on warcom or even in codexes. They like to claim they are a modelling company first and foremost they'd be crazy to cut themselves off from that side of the hobby.
I do believe they are genuinely hampered by the court ruling. They can't support options they don't produce but they don't necessarily care how you represent the rules they do produce.

GW is all for using their kits to kitbash new models. except now they make kits with less options in them so you don't have as many extra bits when you build your unit (terminators anyone?).
And yeah, the chapterhouse thing made them forced to delete most datasheets that didn't have un-kitbashed models. It totally sucks for many armies because it just makes it so you lose all the fluffy options, especially for the characters.

Why can't our HQs use a bike? why cant the Eldar Autarch (who has mastered all shrines of combat) not take anything more than a sword and grenades? Why can't drukhari HQs get wings grafted onto them.

Even more good questions :

Why can't CSM take ancient weaponry that they kept since the HH but the loyalists can (Volkite), land speeders, mortars.
Why can't CSM use all the tanks from the HH? Sabre tank, Bombard, all the sicaran options, all the doritos options, Arquitor, basilisk, medusa.
Why can't CSM have legion traits that are on part with the loyalists
Why can't CSM have legion traits that work on all their units
Why can't CSM have models that feel like actual veterans of the long war

Perfect time for that Dave Chappell meme... “why? Because feth em, that’s why!” What GW says about non primaris players XD

the food chain is as follows release of new kits wise:

SM> CSM> IoM "minor armies" getting update> Xeno army getting update> IoM army > Xeno army.

Overall we still get more then most factions. but the imbalance in releases is there.

Spoiled for kits compared to most of the lines. Lazy mailing it in for rules.

 Eldarain wrote:
Spoiled for kits compared to most of the lines. Lazy mailing it in for rules.

TBF, Gw, had for a long time no idea how they can enforce THEIR vision of what the CSM should look like as an army.

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Eldarain wrote:
Spoiled for kits compared to most of the lines. Lazy mailing it in for rules.

TBF, Gw, had for a long time no idea how they can enforce THEIR vision of what the CSM should look like as an army.

Too true. The fact it's not clear what they think the identity should be is most of the problem.

No, GW knows perfectly it's vision for CSM, unlike DE, what gw fails to realise, that their CSM infantry legionaire veteran vision, is not possible thanks to the other visions they made, aka the SM dex, the biggest dtractor namely, to fielding CSm is AP-1 .

Because why pay 14 pts for 1W that only has a 50% chance to survive the bullet?

It also doesn't help, that , all of the new HQ are imobile.
To exemplify , the MoP, would actually make Daemonengine lists, especially hybrid ones that want to melee, work, but can't ecause the MoP has no way to keep up.

Hmmm, on the subject of MOP. I was kind of comparing Venomcrawler to Forgefiend as a shooting platform. Venom Crawler is more swingy, because the damage can be anywhere from 2 damage to 18 damage. This compares to a jaws forgefiend which can do 9 to 18 damage. (both of their ranges are 36 inches). On balance, although the Forgefiend has 2 more wounds, I actually think the venom crawler might be the better shooting Daemon Engine.

The main reason is that the Venom Crawler's BS never ever degrades. It stays at 4+ no matter how badly iit is injured. Even a 1 W Venomcrawler shoots at BS 4+ Meanwhile, the minute the forgefiend is brought down to half wounds, its BS goes to 5+ and if its brought down to one third wounds, its BS becomes 6+ !!!!

Given that some terrain gives -1 to hit. I think a forgefiend will become useless in many situations more so than the Venomcrawler. So, for me, I would consider Venomcrawlers over Forgefiends.

Actually, if we think of Venomcrawlers as shooty platforms, there is no urgency to move them at their maximum movement. Just keep them alongside the slower MOP, and shoot with them until we eventually arrive near to something we do want to charge. the MOP's cursed earth is going to help alot in keeping them alive.

Humm, I do quite like the idea of 3 venomcrawlers walking up to control midboard with a MoP supporting.

Be careful with VC support. I had two crawlers getting destroyed, both blew up, and they killed a lord, a sorcerer and a MoP.

I've started to use venomcrawlers in the hope they blow up,run them head on to the enemy lines start eating and if they blow then your opponent has to deal.

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

Why can't our HQs use a bike?

I think this really boils down to being an effect of the Chapterhouse suit, as mentioned. Primaris getting a biker Chaplain is a good sign that biker HQ's will be rolled out as new kits (which was expected for a long time).

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

Why can't CSM take ancient weaponry that they kept since the HH but the loyalists can (Volkite), land speeders, mortars.
Why can't CSM use all the tanks from the HH? Sabre tank, Bombard, all the sicaran options, all the doritos options, Arquitor, basilisk, medusa.

We get a fair few of these. Vehicles don't necessarily get good upkeep, especially in the warp. They're rare for CSM. They're also rare for loyalists.
GW doesn't (and shouldn't) want CSM to be loyalist datasheets, but modeled with spikes. Yes there's a power disparity in gameplay currently, but we also get daemon engines and have a different playstyle.
Loyalists don't get Reaper Autocannons, but loyalists had them during the Heresy.
We can also ask why CSM don't have a better transport? Nobody's been able to develop an alternative mode of transportation that's better serving than the Rhino or Land Raider?

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

Why can't CSM have legion traits that are on part with the loyalists
Why can't CSM have legion traits that work on all their units

I think GW over values marks of Chaos. For the basic traits (-1 to hit, advance + charge, ...etc) we have parity/symmetry with loyalists.
Marks are not on the same power level as doctrines + super doctrines and it'd be great to have this changed. Personally, I don't want to go back to paying for marks, because they always felt awful.
Loyalist supplements also have unique psychic powers. Our Psychic Awakening didn't even give us 1 power per legion that uses psykers.
All of our units should get our traits since loyalists do (maybe not Cultists). It also hurts that Salamanders have a better VotLW.

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

Why can't CSM have models that feel like actual veterans of the long war

The new sculpts definitely do. Abaddon was a big lad and now he's further warped by Chaos.
Death guard definitely look like they've been around since the heresy. They even get Cataphractii armor. 1K Sons get Tartaros armor.
Chaos marines are finally at a better scale and getting new kits.

I'm not sure what else you would need for them to feel old? Really crappy/broken armor? Nobody's going to ban you for using MK III/IV kits for your squads. Plenty of CSM aren't veterans of the Heresy.

I feel like marks can add extra rules without breaking the game... it can be the other half of chapter tactics that loyalists get since they can have their custom 2 part chapter tactics... and it would apply to the whole army. And we’d still not be as good as space marines. But it’d be enough to keep me satisfied. Then you could make different combos based on marks of chaos and legions. God aligned obviously would be very limited but undivided and renegades should have plenty of options.

Eldenfirefly wrote:
Just saw a battle report where 60 cultists were taken out in one turn (plus other stuff too). Cultists are just so fragile. These didn't die to morale (it was a 9th ed game). They were literally killed down to the last man. I am going to run Rhinos with troops in them for sure. At least if you want to get at my obsec units, you have to crack the Rhinos first.

Also, I am beginning to see how some armies make use of a super punchy, fast unit with very high saves can be used. These will move up fast, and pose an immediate threat. They often draw a massive amount of firepower because they are tough or have high saves. But the key thing is, they are kind of a trap. They are a distraction carnefix. Because the opponent is drawn into spending massive amounts of resources to wipe out this huge threatening unit, they then lack the firepower to take care of everything else. It tips the power of balance on the objectives.

If instead, you had a suitable tarpit unit that could be charged into close combat and tie up that unit. It would still be scary, but then he will be using a ton of points wrapped in that unit to destroy the tarpit unit, or he falls back and then he can't shoot or charge with his "deathstar" unit. (This only works if it is not a titanic unit). The deathstar unit in this example was this massive deathstar unit of warkicj conclave singing spears. It was huge, scary, and forced the CSM player to devote far too much resources to try and kill it.

Meanwhile, you would then able to allocate all of your firepower towards the units which are thretening the objectives and tip the power balance in your favour. I am not sure if CSM can create such a distraction carnefix so easily. But my point about the throwaway chaos knight would be one example.

Turn 1, the chaos knight stomps up the midboard, is up the in face, and towers menancingly. So on the opponent's turn, they would of course devote a lot of shooting at it to kill it. And it has a 4++ save with raise ion shields.

If we can achieve a similar effect with a purely CSM unit it would be good. Though I am not sure how. Because it needs to be a fast mobile unit that can hit hard, but is very resilient as well. Those shining spear warlock conclave used psychic to give themselves a 4++ invul. That made them pretty tough.

The shining spears deathstar is an example of a unit that can't be blocked either. Even if there were scouts deployed as blockers, that unit would have flown up the midboard and been an immediate threat once the Eldar player started his turn.

At this point, possibly Helldrakes would fill that role? Maybe? Except they aren't that tough, nor are they that scary... A buffed up flying DP with psychic or relic ?

BTW, I saw another battle report where a CSM player tried to run a Daemon engine themed list. Turn 1, 3 decimaters and 1 Lord discordant blown off the table. By turn 3, he had conceded cos he literally had nothing left. sigh.

Always run a psycher with deathhex and warptime... Then it doesn't matter what deathstar you run... mines going to be a max unit of warp talons, even if they are 27pts a model. I think my CSM list will be abbadon and 30 terminators, the aforementioned psycher and warp talons

macluvin wrote:
I feel like marks can add extra rules without breaking the game... it can be the other half of chapter tactics that loyalists get since they can have their custom 2 part chapter tactics... and it would apply to the whole army. And we’d still not be as good as space marines. But it’d be enough to keep me satisfied. Then you could make different combos based on marks of chaos and legions. God aligned obviously would be very limited but undivided and renegades should have plenty of options.

IMO, they do now. Marks (or more accurately, mark-specific strats) are build-arounds for our faction. Khorne grants you access to fighting a second time (and psychic power denial if you go full Khorne w/ World Eaters). Slaanesh gives you shooting a second time with Cacophany. Tzeentch gives you +1 power per turn (weaker but only 1CP). Nurgle gives you model healing (arguably the worst of the 4). You can soup marks within several Legions/Chapters without issue or go all-in on one with others. You also unlock god-specific prayers (which aren't very good) and god-specific psychic powers (which can also be built around and all make units more durable).

The 4th ed dex required paying for them and specifically granted +1 attack, +1 toughness, +1 initiative, a 5++, or rerolling morale.
In 6th ed, it was rage & counter-attack, +1 toughness, +1 initiative, or +1 to your invuln).

In both earlier versions, Nurgle was the standout and there were mainly just fringe reasons to use the other ones (Lash Princes come to mind).

Now, while it's common to gravitate towards Slaanesh, it actually feels okay to run a mono-god army. This should largely be attributed to legion traits being a thing though.


I think there's a solution/middle ground though and it can come from buffing icons, which have always varied between awful and situational. I propose:

- Keep marks as they are (free & a keyword that enables more options).
- Make bare CSM cheap(er), but have nothing special except maybe DttFE.
- Allow any squad to take an icon (if they could currently take one) of the god they're marked with or one for undivided. The mark unlocks strats as normal. The icon confers a more relevant buff, but is more expensive.
- Slaanesh could be a buff to movement or even an increase in range like how Salamanders have increased flamer range.
- Khorne could keep rerolling charges and maybe improve consolidation movement distance. I think that +1 attack or +1 movement isn't right here.
- Nurgle could confer that +1 toughness or maybe a 6+++.
- Tzeench can be a 5++.
- Undivided needs to feel viable. Maybe an additional hit on 6's (like DttFE, but includes shooting and against not just Imperials).

With this, icons (which would definitely go up in price) go from being rarely taken to being an upgrade worth considering. Do you keep your troops very cheap (min squads of cultists), reasonable (bare CSM), or invest in them (CSM w/ an icon, cult troops, or cult troops w/ an icon)?
It would also better represent marines that have a greater affinity with their god, but doesn't leave undivided feeling pointless This might also push CSM into using larger squads for maximum benefit, which would further push our playstyle in a separate direction from loyalists.

All that being said, people are still going to point to doctrines and you could argue that these should be free buffs (or you know, remove doctrines).

I sympathize with the grievances in regards to how our faction is lacking, but this isn't really the place for that discussion, ya know?

Is a defiler too much at 500 points? Making lists of armies to hand out to my friends to get them to try 40k and hopefully get into occasional skirmishes with at least even if they don't build full 2k armies of their own.

Chaos list as it stands:

Red Corsairs of Khorne

Lord with fury axe

5 CSM w missile launcher
5 CSM w chainswords and pistols

5 raptors w a powerfist

Defiler with autocannon and heavy flamer



The armies it will be facing are:

Necrons nr 1:
Skorpekh Lord, 10 warriors, 3 Skorpekh Destroyers, Triarch Stalker

Necrons nr 2:
Royal Warden, 10 warriors, 5 Immortals, 4 Scarabs, 2 Heavy Destroyers

Death Korps of Krieg 1:
Marshal, 2x10 grenadiers with plasma, 4 Deathriders, 2 Basilisks OR a Russ+Engineers

I will also throw something together from the Primaris Marines in Indomitus.

So, is the defiler overkill considering the other armies in the friend-group-meta? I'd like to use some sort of demon engine here for a bigger hitter to make the army feel a bit different from all the others going on and the defiler is iconic, classic chaos and got buffed now that it can move and shoot without -1 as well as fire flamers and autocannon in combat.

But is it too powerful? Should I take some other demon engine instead and spend the points left over to upgrade the chainsword warriors to berserkers or try to fit something like terminators into the list?

I considered obliterators, but they just don't mesh well with the list as it is. But perhaps that cyber-hound riding HQ choice and the tech spider? I am a bit of a chaos noob so no real clue about anything newer than 4th edition really.