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I'd replace the flamers with havoc in it and maybee field a bigger csm squad instead for raptors, for a potential recycle and Bonus cp.

I was thinking of putting together a squad of Iron Warriors Chosen armed with combi-bolters and chainswords and being led by a Chaos Lord and Exalted Champion. One of those two could be armed with the Spitespitter relic, and I could give them all either the mark of Khorne or Slaanesh depending on if I want them to be melee or ranged-focus. These would most likely be kept in reserves.

 Sazzlefrats wrote:

Eldenfirefly wrote:
Just saw a battle report where 60 cultists were taken out in one turn (plus other stuff too). Cultists are just so fragile. These didn't die to morale (it was a 9th ed game). They were literally killed down to the last man. I am going to run Rhinos with troops in them for sure. At least if you want to get at my obsec units, you have to crack the Rhinos first.

Also, I am beginning to see how some armies make use of a super punchy, fast unit with very high saves can be used. These will move up fast, and pose an immediate threat. They often draw a massive amount of firepower because they are tough or have high saves. But the key thing is, they are kind of a trap. They are a distraction carnefix. Because the opponent is drawn into spending massive amounts of resources to wipe out this huge threatening unit, they then lack the firepower to take care of everything else. It tips the power of balance on the objectives.

The shining spears deathstar is an example of a unit that can't be blocked either. Even if there were scouts deployed as blockers, that unit would have flown up the midboard and been an immediate threat once the Eldar player started his turn.

At this point, possibly Helldrakes would fill that role? Maybe? Except they aren't that tough, nor are they that scary... A buffed up flying DP with psychic or relic ?

BTW, I saw another battle report where a CSM player tried to run a Daemon engine themed list. Turn 1, 3 decimaters and 1 Lord discordant blown off the table. By turn 3, he had conceded cos he literally had nothing left. sigh.

Always run a psycher with deathhex and warptime... Then it doesn't matter what deathstar you run... mines going to be a max unit of warp talons, even if they are 27pts a model. I think my CSM list will be abbadon and 30 terminators, the aforementioned psycher and warp talons

Yeah, one of my variants is also terminators. They are relatively cheap, punchy, shooty and tough. Why warptalons rather than Raptors though ? Seems like Warp Talons are kind of overcosted.

Not Online!!! wrote:
I'd replace the flamers with havoc in it and maybee field a bigger csm squad instead for raptors, for a potential recycle and Bonus cp.

It would possibly make for a slightly stronger, but more static and boring list.

For 750 points, I'll likely be adding Berzerkers and upping the unit sizes, but this is more about the whole "If I put down a Defiler on the board, will it ruin the game for other players at 500 points?" or does it seem to play fair against the other lists I listed?

A defiler should be fine for a 500 points game. After all, you might see Dreadnaughts in a 500 point game as well. And a Defiler is just a slightly bigger dreadnaught...

Neknoh wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
I'd replace the flamers with havoc in it and maybee field a bigger csm squad instead for raptors, for a potential recycle and Bonus cp.

It would possibly make for a slightly stronger, but more static and boring list.

For 750 points, I'll likely be adding Berzerkers and upping the unit sizes, but this is more about the whole "If I put down a Defiler on the board, will it ruin the game for other players at 500 points?" or does it seem to play fair against the other lists I listed?

I meant havoc launchers, also the bigger CSM squad can with recycling be way more mobile then the raptors, which is a sad truth.

And no you won't , a defieler is neither particulary durable nor threathening, tbh, it got decent in 8th, but i'd be more afraid of many other things, heck 2 hellbrutes with dakka setup, would make me more worried then a singular non synergy defieler really.

Could you explain the concept of recycling?

The list is also red Corsairs in order to provide the chaos player who wished for Blood for the Blood God more opportunity to close on enemies.

Neknoh wrote:
Could you explain the concept of recycling?

The list is also red Corsairs in order to provide the chaos player who wished for Blood for the Blood God more opportunity to close on enemies.

I think Red corsairs has a strategem from viligence Ablaze that is called "more where they came from". For 3 CP, you can bring back an entire squad of CSM and put it back on the board like you can do cultists with the strategem tide of traitors. Think tide of traitors for CSM for 3 CP. And there is no limit to how often you want to use that strategem, unlike tide of traitors, which is limited to once per game.

Red corsairs have a stratagem for 3CP that allow them to remove a unit of CSM from the battlefield, and set them up again, at full starting strength. A CSM unit can be 20 models, you can bring back a unit that lost 19 models, and they are 20 again.

And at 500 points, this list has something like 8 or 9 CP for being red Corsairs... He's gonna out-necron the necrons with that...

Still not sure I'll do it for 500, but I will absolutely leave the option on the table for him once he's got some games under his belt.

For 750 however, those CSM squads are both going up to 10

Anyone tried Iron Warriors axe of the forge master on a lord with a sorcerer near by doing diabolic strength + VOTLW?

Charge a knight and ye:
6 attacks, hitting on 2's with a reroll (and exploding 5+ d3mw), wounding on 2 (4+2+3 ++1votlw) at -3 2dmg and obv have DTTFE

worked on in one round of combat you are averaging 15-20wounds on a knight.

and if you made him khorne you could do it all over again.

 Latro_ wrote:
and if you made him khorne you could do it all over again.

If you live through the Knight's counterpunch, that is.

By the way, Red Corsairs seems like a very efficient way for us to get more HQs and have at least two CSM detachments without paying extra. Of course, one of them has to be red corsairs. But their trait is pretty good anyway.

So, take one detachment where your warlord is, and that detachment is free, And then soup in another detachment of Red corsairs with three CSM units and now you get back the 3CP you spent on the Red Corsairs detachment. And now you get to run 6 HQs if you want to.

Death guard and red corsairs seem like a good combo.. still wondering if there is any point bringing Huron for extra CP and stick some havocs in the backfield with him.

Eldenfirefly wrote:

 Sazzlefrats wrote:

Eldenfirefly wrote:
Just saw a battle report where 60 cultists were taken out in one turn (plus other stuff too). Cultists are just so fragile. These didn't die to morale (it was a 9th ed game). They were literally killed down to the last man. I am going to run Rhinos with troops in them for sure. At least if you want to get at my obsec units, you have to crack the Rhinos first.

Also, I am beginning to see how some armies make use of a super punchy, fast unit with very high saves can be used. These will move up fast, and pose an immediate threat. They often draw a massive amount of firepower because they are tough or have high saves. But the key thing is, they are kind of a trap. They are a distraction carnefix. Because the opponent is drawn into spending massive amounts of resources to wipe out this huge threatening unit, they then lack the firepower to take care of everything else. It tips the power of balance on the objectives.

The shining spears deathstar is an example of a unit that can't be blocked either. Even if there were scouts deployed as blockers, that unit would have flown up the midboard and been an immediate threat once the Eldar player started his turn.

At this point, possibly Helldrakes would fill that role? Maybe? Except they aren't that tough, nor are they that scary... A buffed up flying DP with psychic or relic ?

BTW, I saw another battle report where a CSM player tried to run a Daemon engine themed list. Turn 1, 3 decimaters and 1 Lord discordant blown off the table. By turn 3, he had conceded cos he literally had nothing left. sigh.

Always run a psycher with deathhex and warptime... Then it doesn't matter what deathstar you run... mines going to be a max unit of warp talons, even if they are 27pts a model. I think my CSM list will be abbadon and 30 terminators, the aforementioned psycher and warp talons

Yeah, one of my variants is also terminators. They are relatively cheap, punchy, shooty and tough. Why warptalons rather than Raptors though ? Seems like Warp Talons are kind of overcosted.

Because I used Warp Talons in my last two games, and they wrecked so much havoc with only warptime as support that its worth another 100pt per unit hike. By turn 3 in both games, different players, different armies, they were in the back field, slicing up units and shutting down tanks. Raptors would do the same, except... once they touch a unit unless I pay to have them fall back... they are going to stay stuck on the first unit I touch. I really just don't believe the point hike.. gotta see the actual points from the book first... and then... pray for a points faq.

You deep struck them in? Or flew them up the board?

I had them on the board. I was running a version of possessed bomb list. Opponnets in both games were totally focused on the possessed. Turn 1 warp talons meekly move up on a flank, nurglings and possessed and chaos lord move up to be killed (well just the nurglings and chaos lord). Turn 2.. warp talons get warp timed. Tri-point a vehicle or a unit, or both... next players turn.. they kill it. turn 3... we're deep in the back field tying everything up (probably lost half the unit though). Whats left of the possessed and the Tzeentch stuff... moves up to kill stuff dead, and cultists score tactical objectives. Not how I thought the list operates, but I like the warp talons being the ones that swing the game.

master of possession
Dark Apostle
Shade blade Chaos lord with jumppack (-5 to be hit, but died in combat and smites)
20 possessed
10 warp talons
3x10 cultists

Nurgle Demon Prince
poxbringer
3x3 nurglings

Tzeentch DP wings
Tzeentch DP wings
Ahriman on disc

What detachments did you run to have that many chars.

Between the detachment choices (and what looks like the old SupCommand) and tripointing I'm thinking that's an 8th batrep.

Just watched a batrep from Tabletop Titans. Black Legion against GSC. That world Killers Strategem came into effect and was clutch. They were both quite even on points until the top of Turn 5, that's when the Black Legion player used World Killers and pulled away with the win.

Terminators are tough, but still can die. The BL player ran a max squad of 10 terminators. With Abby going up the center. All 10 terminators got wiped out. And another thing is, because a fair amount of his infantry shooting was dependent on these combi bolter terminators. When this squad died, he had a lot of problems killing Alcolytes. He had to shoot Obliterators (He ran 6 !) into Acolytes to kill them... His one squad of berzerkers helped him alot because they had so many attacks and they made it into melee. He didn't even put them in a Rhino, just ran them up the board.

And Vehicle explosions are dangerous this edition. Explosions did a lot of damage to his army. So, if you are running a ton of vehicles, or Daemon Engines, some of them will blow up.

I am going to be making use of the Alpha Legion strat about blowing up vehicles. I had thought about running a Knight Despoiler to pop tanks and then play the strat but don't know if I want to buy one just to do it.

 Eldarain wrote:
Between the detachment choices (and what looks like the old SupCommand) and tripointing I'm thinking that's an 8th batrep.

Yes that was 8th. In 9th.. It'll be a batallion of chaos marines and a tzeentch patrol with 2 DP. And since I have yet to leverage the demonkin specialist detachment (MoP can't keep up with possessed), the possessed are just a distraction carnifex, so I won't run demonkin specialists, and go back to using a Disco Lord as cannon fodder to keep the possessed alive until they arrive.

The nurgle demons go away, and I leverage more cultiists and 6 spawn to grab points, maybe chaos bikers too

Any opinions on dreadclaws? They have the same survivability as rhinos (minus the ability to pop smoke), 15 of movement that doesn't degrade, and fly. You can start them on the board instead of deep striking, and they can carry terminators and dreadnoughts including contemptors. According to the points leaks they're dedicated transports now, so they don't take up a fa slot. They're more expensive than a rhino (in both points and $$$) but have better mobility and more options in what they can transport. Could be a good way to get a squad of terminators on a mid board objective turn 1. They'd be a lot harder to dig out than csm.

My opinion on Dreadclaws is: One of the coolest and most iconic CSM units, I love the way they look, and I love the idea of my heretics busting out of one.

But you're paying nearly 100% than a rhino, it's almost certainly never worth it. If they became viable, I'd buy two or three immediately.

Also I don't see how they get anything anywhere T! - they don't currently have the loyalist T1 rules do they?

no, they don't, let's hope for equal long pikes and that they get it but honestly i don't expect it to happen.

You start them on the board instead of deep strikeing them. Just because something has deep strike doesn't mean it has to start in deep strike.

I feel like for the same points you should get a assault drill instead of a dreadclaw. Not sure what the sheet looks like but the assult drill is just a drop pod dreadnought

 Dr.Duck wrote:
I feel like for the same points you should get a assault drill instead of a dreadclaw. Not sure what the sheet looks like but the assult drill is just a drop pod dreadnought

Half the movement, no fly, can't carry terminators or dreadnoughts, but is tougher (T8 vs dreadclaw T7), and more firepower (which you pay for). To each their own YMMV.

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
You start them on the board instead of deep strikeing them. Just because something has deep strike doesn't mean it has to start in deep strike.

Either way, no termies on the centre objective T1, as you previously claimed. I want them to be good my dude, but they're not.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

 Dr.Duck wrote:
I feel like for the same points you should get a assault drill instead of a dreadclaw. Not sure what the sheet looks like but the assult drill is just a drop pod dreadnought

Half the movement, no fly, can't carry terminators or dreadnoughts, but is tougher (T8 vs dreadclaw T7), and more firepower (which you pay for). To each their own YMMV.

Their firepower is a big upgrade, they're much easier to hide LoS, and they're way better in CC too, and have more wounds and better T, for 7 more points.

Only advantage is if you start the claw on the board, but then you're up ahainst the Rhino... and paying 52pt for 3" of move and fly, while losing smoke which is quite tasty.

Either way you wanna go, the claw is much worse. Termi carrying is the only advantage.

So, I got the 9th ed core rule book now. Have been looking at some of these secondary missions in detail. It strikes me that if you don't want your opponent to be able to easily max out on secondaries, there are certain ways you can kind of build your army to avoid that.

Like take for instance the secondary "Titan Slayer". If you run a knight army, or 3 LOS, you kind of gaurantee your opponent can max out the 15 points in this secondary. But if you only take 1 super heavy titanic. Then he might have to think twice about taking this secondary because the max he is going to get is 10 points from this. And if he does take this even if you only have one titanic, then you almost know for sure he is going to aim at your titanic from the get go because it is now worth 10 VP.

Another secondary is "Bring it down".
So, now each vehicle with up to 10W becomes worth 2 VP, while vehicles with more than 10W become worth 3VP. This kind of means that if we go Daemon Engine heavy, we are increasing the likelihood that our opponent will be able to max out on this secondary. Its something we have to be aware of. On the other hand, if we go with a mix. So, say we only have 4 or 5 vehicles in our army (including our Daemon Engines). This kind of also makes it very hard for them to max out on this secondary, whereas if we had 9 or 10 vehicles, then its a no brainer.

Its actually not easy to max a secondary, if you look at them. So, assuming the points are close, this could make the difference between a win and a loss. Just something to think about when designing armies.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Another thing to consider is that you can also design your army around maxing out a particular secondary. Take for example the secondary, while we stand we fight. So, take the three highest points models in our army list. For each of these three models that survive to the end of the whole game, we will get 5 VP. So 15 VP if all 3 survive to the end of the game.

Now, we can take fairly expensive characters that will then be protected by look our sir rule, and some of these characters are very tanky too. A good example would be flying darmon princes and Abbadon. If we build an army with Abaddon and 2 flying daemon princes, and we took this secondary. There could be a good chance all three characters are still alive by the end of the game, in which case we get 15 VP. It does mean we can't take vehicles that are too expensive (or a titanic).

But again, this is something we can consider when designing our list. To get more VP points while at the same time, denying our opponent the ability to max out any possible secondaries.